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liedownquisition · 17 days ago

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Oh boy. You know, I really love how you've cut some of those panels out. Here's a little more context on Oliver very clearly laying a solid chunk of what's wrong with Jason at Bruce's feet:

And you know what, you're right! No one's ever obligated to forgive everyone or anyone ever! But also guess what! You're also ignoring like... a lot of stuff actually. You think the batarang is the only thing people have an issue with.... as if it exists in a vacuum as the only thing Bruce has ever done wrong to Jason ever? Because most people aren't so much mad over a single incident as we are over it happening again and again and again.

RHATO Rebirth v2 #25

Batman and Robin uhhh Issue 6 I think? Going off the omnibus, sorry

Batman #138* *yes I'm aware that Bruce is being influenced by "Zur-En-Arr" in this, but honestly? I've always felt that this & the Batman & Robin one were some of the more in-character examples of Bruce's flaws manifesting in abusive ways

Or maybe some of these are too recent. Let's talk my personal favorite little beef that I like to contrast with Ollie:

Batman #424-425 The Diplomat's Son & Consequences

Ollie, on the other hand, when his charge commits a murder that Ollie thought could be prevented:

Now there's something to be said for how the writers for these stories had very different opinions of the sidekicks that were responsible, Starlin, for example, fucking hated Jason (Well, Robin in general) and wanted him dead, and it's deliberately set up to be a question of whether or not Jason actually did. Regardless, Bruce pretty cleanly absolves himself of any wrongdoing in his upbringing of Jason, whereas Ollie takes responsibility for Mia being in the position that she even could/would make that kind of call. And at this point, Oliver had Mia with him for a lot less time than Bruce had had Jason.

If it was Just the batarang, then, frankly, I think it's be a lot less controversial. This isn't even everything OR the worst panels from those incidents!!! I'm just cherrypicking, just like you were. And you know what, let me add this:

According to Bruce, Ollie's a pretty forgiving guy, it looks like. And if we're taking more Rebirth into account, Oliver was pretty chill about Cheshire hanging out with his family, and she's definitely caused her fair share of problems for the family and world at large on scales Jason has yet to even touch*, regardless of if she's Lian's mom. *some of Jade's crimes are dubiously canon, but with the reality mashing from Convergence in a way all of it is.

Ollie is a lot of hot air. I love the man, and he'll rip anyone and everyone a new one at the drop of a hat for any godsdamned reason. Pretty sure he's called Bruce and Barry and Hal all fascists before, so he has no hesitation in saying the absolute worst about people while... still having a relatively decent relationship with them in the long run, actually. Hal even used to be a villain for a while and Oliver was forced to kill him and now they're buds again. An alternate version of Hal that is STILL that villain continues to torment Oliver and his family.

Would Jason need to actually work to earn forgiveness from the Arrows? Probably. But he's still friends with Roy now (yes, CURRENTLY. AS HE HAS BEEN FOR OVER A DECADE he hasn't even been features in much w/ Roy lately but it has been REFERENCED), and even if it was small that olive branch of helping Roy and Lian reunite (and their general friendship, actually) isn't something that Ollie would just brush off, just as he wouldn't just brush off the events of Seeing Red.

But, in the grand scheme of things, kidnapping her, sending him on a wild goose chase across town, "having a talk" (mia's words) then letting her leave unharmed, and blowing up a building behind her is honestly small potatoes in comparison to the Repeated incidents of textbook abusive relationships that goes on between Bruce and Jason. (And I cannot overemphasize how little Mia was injured by this incident.)

Of course Olie was talking shit about Jason in the interim, Red Hood is incredibly dangerous, and he's scared for her safety. You can SEE how stumped he is by her coming out of this completely unharmed. Plus! This is hot on the heels of her return after the Dr Light Incident, and Ollie has every right to be scared out of his fucking mind.

But when it comes down to it, Mia Was Not Harmed. I will not stop saying that. Because in the world of villains and superheroes and red Hood doing significantly worse shit to other characters, this is NOTHING. Even actually within Arrow comics???? This WAS NOTHING.

And oh my god "He did the same thing Joker did" okay so where do I start with this

a) that was the point, obviously.

b) he didn't, actually.

c) that was the worst description of both incidents I've ever read in my entire life. Joker didn't "take a kid from his father and torture him and make him doubt his place in his family" unless you're talking about the fucking Arkham 'verse!

c2) actually let's break down that description: "took a kid from their father figure" Joker didn't take Jason, he was sold out by his mom. "Beat them up" understatement, but go off. "Tortured them mentally about their place in their family" not really. Joker just beat him nearly to death laughing for the most part, Jason's doubts about it came after he came back to life and saw news that Joker was still alive.

d) hmmm I wonder who said it was just Jason messing with Bruce...

Hm. Yeah. Bruce is definitely the most reliable source for Jason's intentions. I mean, was it generally to spite Bruce? Probably, yeah. But Jason's very good at multitasking and layering his intentions.

e) once again, Mia was not harmed. Jason spent most of their sparring match on the defensive, And only hit Her, physically, like, four times? and all of them in retaliation to her getting in close and hitting him first*? (And, trust me, if Jason can pull the hypercompetent bullshit that is "Seemingly shooting wildly but managing to hit nothing but THE STRING OF MIA'S BOW while also accounting for how she'd dodge" he could do sooooo much worse.) Notably, he briefly had her pinned to the floor with his hands around her throat... and then let up just after he held it long enough to make his point *Note: this is not a justification, she had every reason to fight back with everything she had and what Jason does is very fucked up on like...a normalscale. But it's worth noting he was Very Visibly and outright explicitly "teaching" her throughout it and it's soooo much less than any other villain has done to her.

This doesn't read to me "Making her doubt her place in her family" so much as "Emphasizing their similarities" this is the kind of speech the villain gives when he's trying to recruit the hero. (something which, hilariously, he mocked the idea of in UTH) But you know, all interpretations of canon are valid, although...

Funny enough, this also is very much not what Joker Did, actually. I mean, I don't recall Joker letting Jason have ANY agency at all, really. Just started breaking bones.

Now, I didn't post all of them because if I kept going it'd just be the whole comic, but yeah he does very much air out his daddy issues and compare them to her relationship with Ollie. It's clear that while he does know a lot about Mia... he also doesn't know much about Ollie. At least, not personality wise. Not how much genuinely better he is at this whole parenting gig.

This is so, so much easier to forgive, conceptually, than everything that goes on in the Batfam both from and to Jason and from and to OTHER MEMBERS OF THE BATFAM without involving Jason at all!!! (Birthdays, amirite?)

And, honestly, I'm probably seeing a lot of the posts that you are, and the ones making the Jason & Ollie bonding posts? Aren't really the same ones going on about the Batarang Incident. We've moved on to the rest of the, gestures above, Patterns of Abuse. If we discuss anything past post-crisis at all. (Speaking of post crisis, I actually remember Jason doing a pretty big solid for one of Oliver's close friends... hmmmmmm. Oh, yeah, he helped out when Black Lightning was framed for murder by Slade so good that even HE thought he did it! Granted, that was pre-Mia. So he's not going to stop being wary, but it's not like Jason hasn't done good things that affected people close to Ollie either.)

And if Jason's emotions aren't an excuse, than, well, Bruce's aren't really an excuse either, are they?

Jason's not even the only one who gets abusive treatment from Bruce. And regardless of your personal interpretations of whether or not it's a valid Batman characterization, after multiple writers have written this kind of thing across multiple continuities, there comes a point when you have to accept that this is a genuine flaw that Bruce carries and find a way to reconcile it with everything else.

And if we're going off of canon-gospel, Jason's own behavior has steadily trended towards more and more fangless, more palatable, in a way that given exposure Oliver would probably tolerate, considering all the others that he tends to tolerate. He still seems to regard the Batclan in general as a dumpster fire, "None of my kids would take a shot at me" he says, completely correct, while Batman's kids wouldn't even hesitate. He rolled up with unsolicited advice about Batman's relationships multiple times, all correct, and gotten shot down or ignored as if his significantly fewer incidents of being a shitty parent that he's very self-aware about somehow make him unqualified to speak at all!

Sometimes the reason that people are writing this, is because they like Ollie more than Bruce, because he knows how to actually apologize and actually do better. And trying to ignore canon in favor of making "good dad" Bruce stories, can wear you down when you just keep seeing Bruce depicted worse and worse and worse, and so maybe you want to start seeing the people trapped in Bruce's vortex move away from that.

And among those in that vortex, Jason has it the worst. Like, this isn't a competition. Some of the shitty stuff that Bruce does to him could be argued to be just responses to what he does himself (victim-blamey, but you know what let's pretend it makes things okay) like uth, or RHATOv2#25 But... Batman & Robin? "Oh Bruce was upset about Damian."

What was it you said? Oh, that's right: "Your feelings being valid don't excuse the harm you do, guys."

Gotham War? I'm sure you'll make excuses for Bruce there. I mean, maybe implementing it was Zur, but, frankly, that "Failsafe"? That has "Bruce genuinely thought this" written all over it. Hypocrite. Considering what his response was to the last time someone messed with his mind.

Oliver... kind of is the canon version of fanon's "good dad Bruce" tbh. And sometimes people make that connection, see those parallels, and want to play with that. It's just a what if.

You know that thing about tragedies about how if anything happened any differently it could have been prevented, that someone could have been saved? Ollie fucks up, but, fundamentally, if Ollie had been in Bruce's position, he would have saved Jason, not by doing the impossible of making it there in time, but by putting Jason first and having healthy communication lmao. Because Bruce very explicitly didn't! He didn't want to talk about it because he was scared of the truth! Or, he was scared of what he believed to be the truth, which would be that Jason had killed. And that it wasn't Bruce's fault. Because it's never Bruce's fault if he failed to raise Jason in that way that took that instinct out. It's not his responsibility to have realized, as the adult in the situation, that Jason maybe shouldn't have been exposed to so much rape and murder at an impressionable age. It's not his responsibility to keep better track of his barely teenaged son who's going through severe trauma right in front of him because they failed to enact justice on someone.

And Bruce had a lot to say about what he thought about Jason that varied and, honestly, rang more as projecting his own issues onto Jason than matching up what was actually happening on the page. Better meta-writers than I have discussed how rarely we get Jason's POV in these situations, that we're TOLD a lot about Jason by everyone else who has an agenda to frame Jason in a certain way.

If you hate Jason Todd, or hate jayroy, then block the damn tags & add it to a content filter bcs generally the latter is always marked. if it's someone on your dash reblogging them and it's not tagged/hiding it then ask them to tag it so you can filter it or stop following them idc. Don't pretend your cherry picking of canon and willful out-of-context misinterpretations is any better than anyone else's.

I have seen many posts and fanfics who are going "Oliver works with Jason to annoy Bruce!", "Oliver protecting Jason from Bruce!", "Oliver deciding to annoy Bruce by being like a father figure to Jason!", "Oliver being so happy for Roy and Jason being together!", and etc, but in canon, Oliver HATES his guts.

Here is a compilation of Oliver thinking or talking about Jason from Seeing Red, which is the first Red Hood's story after Under The Red Hood, and the one time Oliver and Jason interracted in canon (if I'm not mistaken, they never did since):

For the last one, he is talking to Bruce and Jason is one of the "every damned manner of sociopathic fruit fly".

And like, Oliver and the Arrowfam are 100% justified in their dislike or hate. He literally pulled the same shit Joker did on them: took a teenager away from her father figure, beat her up, torture her mentally about her place in her new family and her usefulness, make her and her guardian think he was going to kill her, explode the building she was in in front of her father figure to make him believe he was too late... And all of that to get to Batman. He doesn't give a shit about Oliver or Mia, it's about Batman, it's about Bruce. Just like when the Joker killed him, it wasn't about him, it was about Batman.

And it doesn't matter that Jason changed, because others aren't obligated to forgive someone because they redeemed themselves. I do not believe that Oliver is fine with Jason, he is probably not very happy he hangs around Roy, and does NOT want him near Mia ever again, and certainly not his granddaughter, Liam. That's the man that kidnapped his daughter because he was mad at his own father, nope. He knows how it is to be annoyed with the Bat, and it doesn't justify this.

I can hear y'all seeing disregarding canon is fine, and yes, sure. But also, folks, you are such hypocrites if you want to keep in that Bruce threw a batarang at Jason's neck, and erase how it was an accident ("Batman doesn't make mistakes!" Firstly, he does, canonically, make huge mistakes sometimes. Secondly, the man was an emotional wreck, his son had come back to life and had been killing people and his other son, Dick, was maybe dead because his city just exploded. He is human, not a machine! Thirdly, it is simply fucking stupid for a character who is against killing to willingly inflict such a mortal wound.), but Jason being a huge asshole to others is either erased or excusable (your feelings being valid don't excuse the harm you do, guys). Talk about favoritism.

#dc #sidenote seeing red was written by winick just as UTH was and it's worth noting he is kind of ableist #for all that there's a lot of good stuff he writes he does so love to throw around terms like sociopath or psychosis like it's candy #tbh if Oliver knew half the Shit that Bruce does to Jason he would turn to bitch Bruce out again because how can you think that's helping #Even WITHOUT LIKING JASON he would call Bruce out because as I posted he VERY MUCH DID DO THAT. MULTIPLE TIMES.#also most of the ollie being a good dad to Jason posts going around right now are from someone who hasn't read RHATO and hates it #in fact a majority of jayroys you see fucking hate RHATO and have their own version of it in attempt to reconcile conflicting canon #But everyone just really wants to feel morally superior yeah?#I actually also very much love Bruce and it's very painful to me to see canon make him so cruel & abusive. over and over and over again.#Sometimes it's exhausting to try and reconcile all of that.#You stop making excuses.#Jason has done less and less harm over the years as writers generally try to redeem him despite the classism in their portrayals.#Bruce? has only gone on to do more and more harm to the people close to him with more and more in universe justifications.#And parental abuse is a lot more of a Real Issue that people relate to. That canon has accidentally made incredibly realistic portrayals of #Despite the fantastical proportions of some of it. And yet he's still a good man.#But no matter what Jason does to improve himself and be better he's still just the fuck up and wrong huh?#Sure there's no real reason for any of that.#At the end of the day Oliver's line with Jason would be whether or not Mia has the capacity to forgive and tolerate him.#And she would give Jason no end of shit but ALSO she values Roy & his opinions very highly #and you don't have to ship them for her to look at their CANON FRIENDSHIP and think “well. If you see something in him then sure.”#“But if he tries anything I'm taking the shot” and Jason would respect that.#Mia cares so little she ain't even kicked Jason in the balls like Tim did #I always hate using Jade for this bcs I DC hates asian women but she did like nuke a whole fucking country.#which made no sense on a number of fronts but that's not the point. If we only accepted which comics “made sense” we wouldn't read comics #Jade nguyen I'm so sorry bbg but I'm makign a point even if I hate to do it.

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liedownquisition · 2 months ago

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Jason Todd's timeline and "Age"

So, there's a lot of discussion of Jason Todd's age esp as relative to other sidekick vigilantes, particularly Tim and Mia. I believe the exact words are usually something about a "grown ass man beating up/trying to kill teenagers."

DISCLAIMER: This particular post is specifically regarding the "grown ass man vs teenagers" statement, I have posts regarding the "tried to kill them" portion and other stuff like "seriously Jason Todd is like being shot by a marshmallow gun compared to what goes on directly before and after him in these incidents, also you don't bitch about the right stuff, also a lot of you prop up characters who are Objectively Worse, and no that's not hate on your fave it's just me calling out hypocrisy". It just takes time to find digital copies of the panels I'm using. NOTE I AM NOT JUSTIFYING HIS ACTIONS. I'm just saying y'all blow it out of proportion for petty character hate. Like, shit, they're superheroes. Jason's soooo fuckin' tame. He's not even framed as a big deal to the teens it's only the adults that think it's that much of a problem.

Courtesy readmore post cut:

Now, to start off, we all know Jason died at 15 & a few months off from 16 (if you want me to dig up panels, sure, but I figured at this point that wasn't in question). Tim at this point is somewhere between 12-13, and we have this panel in Lonely Place of Dying which takes place a few months later:

So that's a ballpark of 2-3 years between Jason and Tim.

But Tim's age is really fucky and they keep de-aging him tbh. We can extrapolate that his confrontation with Jason was between the ages of 16-17 bcs it's after the arc where he has his incredibly shitty 16th birthday in Robin Vol2 #116 and before Red Robin where he's stated to be 17. This would put Jason between 18-19 at the time. (If you really want me to find panel sources for Tim's birthday and his age in RR then, sure, but I don't think they're necessary. I used it more as a guidepost for Jason's age, since we have a clear idea of what the age gap is.)

At least, on paper.

Mia for her part I've had a hard time finding like, on panel mentions of her age and if anyone can direct me to it being explicitly stated I'd love that. I'm rereading old comics but it's a LOT of comics to hunt down & dig through. To my understanding she was fifteen when Ollie first met her, and there's at Minimum of about a year and a half between that to her meeting Red Hood, more likely at least two? because there's at least few months between that and her joining the Titans, the Doctor Light stuff, then One Year Later, and then returned to Star some 3 months after Ollie came back to run for mayor? And then Jason not too long after. So, two years feels safe. Puts her at 17-ish, Jason at 19-20

Once again, I specify: on paper.

People would happily point out at this point that the upward stretch of a 4 year age gap is a "huge gap in maturity." And yeah, under normal circumstances, I'd agree.

But, and this is going to get contradictory bcs I found Two different timelines (BOTH written by Winick, lmao), and depending on how you read it it could be up to three different possibilities. Let's Start with Batman Annual #25: Daedalus & Icarus.

Timestamp before Jason's resurrection, which is pretty well known at this point:

Next, him waking up from a coma afterwards, when he escapes the hospital:

Now the above could be interpreted as either 1 year after he died if we're assuming that it's using the same "start" point to count as the resurrection (unlikely), or one year after he came back (more likely).

Next, the timestamp right before a guy recognizes him and sells him out:

And, finally, the timestamp before being put in the Pit:

That is, count it up, between 3-3 1/2 years where Jason was dead, in a coma, or otherwise not particularly... cognizant of the world around him. His ass is NOT developing emotionally, socially, or mentally like this, which pretty handily bridges the gaps there. Taken at face value, Jason's maturity level is going to be, unironically, younger than Tim's in the wake of these setbacks.

Now, if we go to Lost Days issue 1, it doesn't specify how long he was dead, nor how long he was in a coma, so we'll just carry those two over, what we DO have is this from just after Talia brought him home:

This puts him as being on the streets for five months, so we're at just shy of two years so far. And then we have this:

Which is right before Talia puts him in the Pit.

So, in summary: 6 months dead, 1 year coma, 5 months on the street, and something like 1-1 1/2 years with the League which...

Actually puts us on almost the exact same timeframe either way. 3 to 3 1/2 years. It just changes whether Jason was on the streets or with the League for longer.

And is utterly incomprehensible because comic timelines are a freaking nightmare.

If we're being generous, then that would put Jason at a minimum of 19, maybe toeing the line of 20 for UTRH, again, on paper, because like hell are you convincing me he did less than a year's worth of training abroad throughout Lost Days. Yeah maybe they trained him in fighting while he was catatonic, muscle memory and all that. But the other teachers that we KNOW of? The bombs, guns, probably something to get him up to date on handling all that tech we see him using, Egon, potentially arguably All-Caste if you want to draw from n52...

but you'd have to knock at least a year and a half off of his internal/personal development from death & coma, at minimum. Maybe you could argue he was somewhat developing while in his "the lights are on, but nobody's home" phase, you can't say it's at the same level as a normal person might when going about their day to day life, and it's difficult to measure. But he's not hitting the kind of milestones that he should be for his age. I wouldn't put him at anything less than two years behind. So if we use our upper estimates on Jason, and lower estimates on both the developmental setbacks and Tim/Mia's ages that gives us:

Jason toeing 20, mentally 18, fighting Tim at 16. 2 year gap, kind of stretching the physical age gap if we assume Tim had just barely turned 13 when he showed up to be Robin. - OR LESS

Jason maybe 21, mentally 19, fighting Mia at 17, two year age gap again. Honestly, still not that big of a difference - OR LESS

And, to be frank, that's not even counting the mental development issues that come from the intense physical trauma from dying - and I swear to fuck don't give me the "He's not the only one who died he's not special" speech.

HOW MANY OF THE OTHERS YOU'RE USING AS A GOTCHA LOST, *GESTURING AGGRESSIVELY ABOVE*, LITERALLY MULTIPLE YEARS OF THEIR LIFE.

Not counting adults, of course. Barry lost years, Hal lost years, Ollie I think also lost a couple years? but A) they came back still adults, bodies pretty much the same. B) While Jason's body didn't go through a magic growth spurt in canon, it did still grow esp while with the League.

I'll eventually get around to Titan's Tower & GA#72 (tbh, there are other people who've already done Titan's Tower and it'd probably be better than what I do, so I'm more going to focus on the latter, but there IS a specific part of the former that drives me nuts that I don't see brought up a lot), and maybe if we're feeling spicy all my issues with UTRH starting with how Winick is just as guilty of retroactively writing Jason as being inherently a bad penny since his Robin days as any of the other "modern" writers. Like, bud, Severe enough Head Trauma is legitimately enough to change someone's personality, not to mention trauma. It wouldn't hurt your narrative for that eerie difference, the Shade of What Once Was if you're really going for RH being Like that.

Final addition: I swear to god if you use my post to start up some kind of petty-ass ship war or flame other characters I will immediately turn off reblogs and replies I am Not Dealing With That Shit, please and thank you.

Anyways, @glitter-stained, your interest made me decide to actually put the work in now to pull it up rather than passively gather stuff to dump whenever discourse pushes me over the edge so, here ya are. Looks like you did have it closer on the mark than I did.

#dc #Jason Todd #I guess #because frankly I'm sick of this. Learn to use content filters and grow up.#Typically I try to practice what I preach and I'm very liberal with filters and blocking ppl. But Sometimes Temptation Seizes Me #Note that I'm trying to be rather Watsonian with my technicalities but I've got the Doylist angles in my head too.#Stop using a character as a gotcha to shame people you're not endearing anyone #Mia is a genuinely really good character and trying to sell her as a better alternative while bashing the characters ppl do like #does not fucking work you idiots.#Have you never worked in sales? it's Sooooo easy to spin #“Hey do you like this character for x & y & z? I have another GREAT character you'd love and has the benefit of ALSO being Q.”#positive reinforcement is always a more effective recruitment tactic than haterism #I'm already regretting this #I decided not to tag the other two bcs at this point I expect any tagged post to get messy and adding them is just inviting it to be worse

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mysterycitrus · 1 year ago

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top 5 dc writers & top 5 dick grayson writers pretty plssss

i feel like this q has to come with a big * beside each name because most of these writers have written twice as many terrible comics as they have good. like chuck dixon is a foundational writer for dick (and tim and connor) and he’s also a violent turbo-fascist who’s made the industry indescribably more toxic. devin grayson’s run on nightwing 1996 is an exercise in her weird racist fetish, but she also wrote for titans 1999, one of the better fab 5 comics. grant morrison wrote batman and robin 2009, and irreversibly butchered the popular interpretation of talia al ghul, etc.

so take these with a grain of salt —

1. mark waid — this should be obvious imo. there’s really no competition. the writing (for dick in specific) in worlds finest blows everything else out of the water rn. he can balance large casts well, his version of the titans was fun, he has an obvious knowledge of comic canon. i wish he’d pick up the ongoing nightwing solo and give back dick’s personality.

2. kelley puckett - unironically wrote the best run of all time. no one has done it like him before or since. i need him to come back and write for cass again (or damian). would love to see him write the dick + damian + talia dynamic.

3. scott snyder — this man wrote black mirror (the best dickbats story) and court of owls (which ruined everything). he's three dimensional. he is my enemy. he is not allowed to worldbuild unsupervised.

4. greg rucka — i met him at a con once and he was a very chill dude. he's an ally. he's always wearing a hat. no man's land, u will always be famous.

5. judd winick — this man either writes something that changes the status quo (utrh) or one of the worst books ever (titans 2008). no inbetween. he's a freak. he wants tim drake and kon-el to kiss. honorary ment for being another guy that ruined talia. he does get points for writing outsiders (2003).

also a shoutout to jeff lemire and amy wolfram

#dc comics #nightwing #dick grayson #THIS IS NOT A DEFINITIVE LIST !#im sure i missed some #the ask and the answer #ask game

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anon55mystery · 3 months ago

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🤛Stand With Animation🤜

LET'S WORK TOGETHER & STOP THEM FROM ERASING OUR AND TODAY'S CHILDHOOD!!!!!

THE ANIMATED SHOWS OF THE 2000'S CARTOON NETWORK (The all I could find at least)

Mike, Lu, & Og (Mikhail Shindel, Mikhail Aldashin, and Charles Swenson)

Foster's Home For Imaginary Friends (Craig McCraken)

The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy & Evil Con Carne (Maxwell Attoms)

Camp Lazlo (Joe Murray)

My Gym Partner's a Monkey (Tim Cahill)

Teen Titans (Glen Murakami)

Hi Hi Puffy Ami Yumi (Sam Register)

Sheep in the Big City (Mo Willems)

Time Squad (Dave Wasson)

Whatever Happened to Robot Jones (Greg Miller)

Class of 3000 (André 3000)

The Life and Times of Juniper Lee (Judd Winick)

Party Wagon (Craig Bartlett)

Megas XLR (Jody Schaeffer)

Codename Kids Next Door (Tom Warburton)

Chowder (C. H. Greenblatt)

The Marvelous Misadventures of Flapjack (Thurop Van Orman)

Ben 10 & Ben Ten Alien Force (Joe Casey)

Squirrel Boy (Raymie Muzquiz)

The Secret Saturdays (Jay Stephens)

Xiaolin Showdown (Christy Hui)

90's/ 2000's/ 2010's to 2020's

AGAIN DON'T LET WBD AND DAVID ZASLAV KEEP REMOVING OUR CHILDHOOD AND TODAY'S CHILDHOOD GENERATION!!! THESE CREATORS DIDN'T NEED AN AI TO MAKE THEIR ANIMATED SHOWS, THEY MADE THEIR SHOWS FUN IN THEIR OWN WAY!!!

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elioherondale · 1 year ago

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JayRoy but their married. JayRoy but Jason adopted Lían and loves her as his own. JayRoy but they have Thanksgiving dinner at the queens house and Dinah and Jason end up making all the food bc Roy can’t cook and Oliver only knows how to make chili. JayRoy but the Roy convinced Jason to finally cut contact with Bruce for good. JayRoy but they stop being vigilantes and build their own auto shop together. JayRoy but they end up adopting two more kids together (both girls, making them girl dads, through and through.) JayRoy but Oliver steps up to be a better dad to both Roy and Jason. JayRoy but Jason is always there when Roy relapses, never angry, just ready to help him back on his feet. JayRoy but they both go to therapy. JayRoy but no one knows how to talk Jason down from a panic attack or a nightmare better than Roy. JayRoy but they take their girls to Disney world every year. JayRoy but they are coping and always learning and growing tone better people, for each other and their family. JayRoy but they get the happy life and happy ending that they both deserve.

#batstans (derogatory)#love how there's no mention of Mia #or Grant #or Jade #“I don't know what would happen with Roy because I've never read anything other than RHATO.”#“OH I KNOW I'LL MAKE HIM FUCKING RELAPSE AGAIN!”#Roy would rather hunt down Jason for trying to kill Mia than be friends with him #pls pls pls go read Arsenal (1998) by Devin Grayson or Outsiders (2003) by Judd Winick #look look Judd Winick the guy who also wrote Under The Red Hood #what the fuck do you mean “step up to be a better dad to Roy” HE STEPPED UP TO BE A BETTER DAD WHEN HE FOUND OUT ABOUT CONNOR

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mamawasatesttube · 1 year ago

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saw someone being wrong about kon on the internet again (i know. shocking) and you are all so lucky i'm sick and feverish and lazy because i DID just seriously entertain the thought of writing up a small essay complete with issue and panel citations about why it's simply incorrect to say that kon never really seemed to reciprocate any sort of crush on tim before geoff/tt03. this is just not true. you dont have to actually ship them but to downplay their importance to each other even in the earliest days is simply incorrect. i'm too tired and achy to bother digging through comics to pull up all the issues that have the bits i want to point at but like... they were both very mutually important to each other from early on. it was in no way shape or form one-sided, whether you want to read that as platonic or romantic. man.

#rimi talks #id rather put my limited energy towards the tender t4t timkonisms fic but in my heart this is a longass post #kon's sb94 alice in wonderland nightmare sequence. kon's entire Everything @ tim in issue 85.#the entire concept of robin kon?????? hello?????#the way they function as a unit so easily in yj98 even While actively bickering???#graduation day and judd winick explicitly saying he wanted them to come out of the closet [together]??#kon going out of his way to not only do bits just to annoy tim but also being protective of him at the same time?? (in yj98 again)#him wanting robin's number in wf3 (and then getting it sometime before rex leech roller coaster issue)??????#what are you fucking onnnnnnnnn #you dont have to read it as romantic if you dont want to but they were undeniably close and it was undeniably mutual. bro #i just um. i just think that if youre so internet poisoned to hate a ship that you have to deny the characters have mutual importance #to each other in the canon material (but you can't deny it from one side so you have to claim it's mostly one-sided and blame a writer)#then maybe you should um log off and reread canon ?#<- that's petty sorry but im just saying.#anyways.#returning to the timkon mines now. crawls back into my word doc

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pluckyredhead · 11 months ago

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I will never recover from this panel in Titans: Beast World Tour - Star City, which is at least 20 years overdue.

Of course, the obvious text of this story is "Ollie is loud and stubborn and tends to steamroll over everyone without thinking."

And the obvious subtext is "Connor is gearing up to tell Ollie he's ace and he's looking to feel safe to do so."

But to me it also carries the weight of everything that happened since Ollie came back:

Connor was regularly sidelined throughout the entire 2001 Green Arrow run or existed only to provide Wise Support to Ollie and Mia, never to have a storyline of his own. I think Kevin Smith and Judd Winick are both great Ollie and Roy writers but they had no idea what to do with Connor and it shows.

When Connor did play a major role, it was as object and/or victim, not subject (he gets shot, he gets shot again, we learn Ollie knowingly abandoned him at birth, etc.).

His interiority is entirely lost (outside of Dragon's Blood, which is...a whole 'nother can of worms). We get tons of POV from Ollie, some from Roy and Mia. I don't think we ever get it from Connor.

He's written out of the book for long passages, like when he stays on the island while Ollie returns to Star City.

Once he's in the coma, he's reduced once again to an object: a prop for Ollie and other characters to worry about and fight over, but not a person who can make choices. He's not a person, he's a football.

When he wakes up, he's being controlled by Dr. Sivana.

Then his personality is wiped.

Then he's erased from continuity.

When he's finally brought back a decade later, it's in the thrall of other supervillains.

So yeah, I'll bet Connor doesn't always feel heard. He hasn't had true agency since 2001.

#connor hawke #green arrow

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cleromancy · 1 year ago

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one thing i think people miss when trying to nail down the like nitty gritty of like-- okay. so post-crisis post-resurrection Jason's a hypocrite, right? and hes purposely fancast himself as the villain opposite bruce in utrh.

but also even while Jason's doing this he *has a point,* and he *knows it.* Jasons got a lot of big moral ideas hes spouting, and from what we see, he mostly only abides by *some* of them. so while you're like acknowledging that utrh/lost days jay is motivated by his emotions and doesn't act in ways that align with his moral principles, but also he *keeps bringing **up** those moral principles*, you start to wonder like. What the hell is going on in that big brain of yours jay.

and what i was getting at. the thing i think most people miss or forget when exploring that. is jasons appearance in outsiders 2003.

im looking through the tpb so im not giving you the exact issue numbers for any of these panels sorry but its 44-46 plus the annual.

but here is the crux of the matter:

cutting for length!!

so whats going on here in outsiders! is that black lightning, aka Jefferson pierce, aka anissa pierces dad and one of the few really good dads in the dcu, got (basically) framed for murder by deathstroke; believed he (accidentally) actually did the murder; eventually turned himself in to serve his time in prison.

jason happens across this information entirely by accident, and goes out of his way to deliver that information to dickie, who has an on-again off-again relationship with being the leader of the outsiders at this point in time. and im just going to post a lot of it, both bc i like it and also so you see what Jason was going against JUST TO DELIVER THIS INFORMATION:

skipping the first page to save images but jason asks dick to meet up with him in Gotham; the next pages:

im skipping a bit of really enjoyable fighting after that as well but pls know its there. jason asked dick to meet up and dick fully said okay ill come to your rendez-vous *just* to beat the shit out of you. and he was so valid for that. but this aint about him so lets get back to jason:

why does jason bring this up + how does Jason come by this information? well

ok. now youre as caught up as dick is.

some times fools and jackanapes say to me. but sisky why would jason do this and bring this information to dick. why would he try to break black lightning out of prison. why would he do such a thing when he is a known knave, neer do well, scoundrel, etc. to which i say HE TOLD YOU!!! HE TOLD YOU WHY HE DID IT

JASON FUCKING VALUES THE *GOOD GUYS.*

(and also sidenote. winick is writing this so we have to assume he knows how competent and resourceful jason can be bc... as the guy who defined the character after his resurrection... he *made him that way.* so based on utrh we have to assume both that 1) jason could have pulled this prison break off solo and 2) jason *knows* he could pull it off solo...

but he also knows he's a Bad Guy now, and he realizes that *if* he sprung black lightning hed just fucking! turn himself back in! so jadon needs to convince some big goddamn heroes to do it....

so he goes to dick.)

((and also secondary sidenote. willis todd canoncially spent enough time in and out of prison that jason assumed hed wound up back there without telling him or catherine before she died and jason wound up squatting, and he only found out otherwise when he read the entry on the batcomputer on two-face.))

the point is. jason has a *lot* of moral ideas he is not, at this point in time, capable of living by for a variety of Jason Reasons, ill do more meta on that some other time. so he's inhabiting the bad guy role, but sometimes he keeps slipping and falling and accidentally caring about things, and...

god damn it dick, black lightning is one of the *good* guys. like *you're* one of the good guys. aren't you going to fucking help him??

i will probably elaborate on this more in the future as well. i just need to hit send rn LOL

#jason todd #dc #text #outsiders #meta #jason text

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lesbianspeedy · 2 years ago

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found it. learn to tag your own posts bitch. like its MEANT to be uncomfortable to read, HENCE THE ENTIRE BEGINNING OF HIT ISSUE GREEN ARROW #11, then you see how wildly seperated reality is from that dream. and you see ollie remind her about school, and homework, and reminding her she is a child. and you see mia accept that, and literally HAS HER SAY "man i'm crushing on you so hard" and ollie doesnt acknowledge it, tells her to take the stairs cause shes a kid and needs to be careful.

after that mia accepts it and her flirting and hypersexualisation trauma responses move onto connor, and smith, while not perfect at writing connor, is better than winick. he has connor kinda freeze up under it, hes unsure how to deal with it, and im not saying smith is perfect at writing always, literally a few issues later mia hits on connor so they can set up a gay joke. but like. its still written with the clear intent to be a natural progression of mia still growing into the family shes now in.

and then it gets handed to winick and he completely fumbles the landing. where connor should've been like stopping mia in her tracks, probably with one of his lil passionate peace on earth speeches (affectionate) about what family means etc etc, he instead is now just ignores it, STILL CALLS HER A KID* MULTIPLE TIMES (BECAUSE SHE IS) AND THEN IT COMES TO A HEAD WHEN HE KISSES HER. which is so fucking insane in every way but especially because what an INSANE THING TO DO TO A MINOR WHO HAS SUCH A SKEWED VIEW OF RELATIONSHIPS WITH MEN HUH.

*im not kidding this is the ISSUE BEFORE THE ISSUE WITH THE KISS

but winick clearly did not think any of that fucking through, he loooves to talk about how traumatic mia's childhood was but gives it no actual payoff in characterisation. its why i genuinely cant recommend a lot of his issues, eventually it just becomes fucking trauma porn.

and i truly mean that, an arc or two later, their house gets blown up, connor like fucking screams at mia for no reason, mia is attacked at school and sees lots of her classmates die, then she fucking dies, then is trapped under rubble with connor, then is barely recovering on an island, then she comes back and is immediately kidnapped and blown up in her own school. then connor gets put in a coma, becomes brain dead, is kidnapped, becomes a meta, has amnesia etc etc etc so on and so forth. and i can genuinely say within that there is not an ounce of character growth for literally anyone.

been posting a lot of rants lately. i have a lot of hate in my heart i think

*me reading GA 2001 #44* aww connor is being a good brother to mia… ten seconds later he KISSES HER?? Why are comic writers so weird and don’t understand when characters have sibling dynamics

its so. so bad. and it sucks so much ass bc like WE WERE A FOOT FROM THE GOAL AND THEN U FUCKED IT UP WINICK. U WERE DOING SO WELL.

i've talked abt it before but it feels like winick just didnt get the idea of mia's unhealthy trauma responses in the way that smith set up/did. like the whole mia flirting with ollie stuff was handled very well imo, he shut it down without like being harsh about it (acting like a dad, calling her kiddo, reminding her to do her homework, treating her yknow like a CHILD) and she moved on from it.

and then winick just had her CONSISTENTLY GO AFTER CONNOR FOR ABOUT 50 ISSUES with no sort of acknowledgement other than "haha mia is flirting with connor again" ALL THE WHILE HAVING OTHER CHARACTERS REFER TO THEM BOTH AS OLLIE'S KIDS AND HAVING PEOPLE CALL CONNOR HER B R O T H E R. and then its just so WILDLY out of character for connor to do THAT. its just all bad. like i can even understand the sentiment behind it, and its a sentiment that WAS needed, but it could've been done about 50 other ways.

#mia dearden #winick hate #yeah im tagging it that so i can find this again mind ur business #incest tw

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fastestmanalive333 · 8 months ago

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Rundown on my AU Earth-1987

Heavily based around New Earth.. a continuation in a sense accept for a few changes

-Bart Allen is the big resurrection instead of Barry, Conners resurrection in Legion of 3 Worlds stays intact Bart continues as the flash and gets the title but keeps his impulse and old personality unlike fastest man alive, Wally gives him a made up oath and goes goes to retire to be a dad and raise the twins, Bart is unsure of his New position.. he reconnects with Carol Bucklen..

-Roy Harper continues as Red Arrow Cry of Justice simply does not happen and Lian is still alive, he will even go on to join the Justice League

-The Justice League will be very much led by Dick Grayson the line up will consist of

-Nightwing, Superman, Martian Manhunter, Troia, Red Arrow, Jade, Obsidian, The Atom (Ryan Choi), The Flash (Bart Allen), and a New Green Lantern (Terry Berg) more on him later, Firestorm (Ronnie/Jason), Kendra Saunders(Hawkgirl) and Cyborg(Victor Stone)

-Titans will mostly consist of the YJ characters except Bart the line up will consist of Red Robin, Sentinel (Kon-El) he will now move on from the superboy moniker and become his own hero, Fury(Cassie Sandsmark) will be trained by Lyta Trevor the Fury of the newly reformed Earth Two and the daughter of Wonder Woman and Steve trevor her and Conner will be dating once again, Ravager (Rose Wilson), Red Devil(Eddie Bloomberg), Blue Beetle(Jaime Reyes), Static (Virgil Hawkins), Aquawoman(Lorena Marquez)

-Gar and Raven will join JL Dark along with Zatanna and others

-Batman: Batman will run batman incorporated Duke Thomas will be in this canon and will have met batman during no man's land as opposed to Zero Year, he will be Cass' best friend and will become The Signal, Gothams day protector unlike main continuity he will not be in the Batfamily, he will be his own unique hero, Jason Todd will have his pre crisis origin and hair color.. controversial ik.. but for the sake of preference that will be so, he will be an anti-villain crime boss controlling the drug trade, him and Bruce won't be at odds with each other, he simply does not approve of the path Jay has taken and it saddens him, Jay cares about Bruce too.. but he has chosen this life he will still be with Scarlet, Stephanie Brown will still be Batgirl, Barbara will still act as Oracle, Joker will have the doll maker remove his face and the court of owls will be introduced as Justice League villains instead of batman villains, they will very much be a worldwide illuminati type organization Damian will still act as Robin the bat fam will just be smaller and have Bruce, Dick, Damian, and Steph

-Green Lantern: Hal Jordan will marry Carol and Kyle Rayner will lead the corps, the mythos will be explored more, Terry Berg will be given kyles ring after kyle becomes a white lantern, Terry is Kyle Rayners assistant in Winicks run he will become The fifth earth lantern, kyle and Terry will get more bonding moments.. Kyle and Jade will get back together and marry for real this time, Terry's character will be explored more

-Superman: Kal will lead the Supermen of America a new team, Chris will be living with Clark and Lois again, he will be attending college classes with Thara and will be best friends with Duke Thomas, their dynamic will be like a swapped version of batman and superman.. Chris being the more serious super and Duke being the lighthearted bat, Chris will be able to control shadows and darkness, Duke controls light, him and Thara will be members of the JL Dark, Thara will assume the civillian identity, Claire Connor Lang acting as Karas sister, Kara Zor El/Linda Lang will still be living with lana and be on her last year of high school she will meet and team up with Linda Danvers her predecessor and they will quickly become friends, Conner will still be in Smallville now going to school at Kansas State.. the same college Chris goes too Kon will see him as a brother/Cousin, and they will be a duo in themselves they will all deal with the repercussions of zods war on earth

-The JSA: It will very much feature mostly the children and grandchildren of the jsa.. the remaining founding members will pass on.. except Jay and Carter Jay will act as mayor of NYC quitting the team giving guidance when needed, the JSA Hawkman will continue on with the JSA

Flash: Bart Allen will now be the main flash.. he will not be so sure he can do it again.. he failed.. he died.. and failed.. he will reconnect with his old friends in Manchester now all adults, him and Carol's relationship will spark, now working for Star Labs, Bart will get a job as a reporter at Picture News with Iris and we will see their relationship more Rival will return still possessing Max's body he will be the first big bad and it will give Bart and Max the closure they deserve, him and Bart will speak in the speed force where he will call him son before passing on, we will establish his rogues, the old rogues will still be on, barts old villains will hoin in too including White Lightning, Irey will become Barts Kid Flash

Wonder Woman: Diana will be working for the government and working to rebuild themysciras connection to earth, the amazons tactics have changed no visitors are welcome, Cassie will unleash her Olympian abilities more, she will cross over to earth two and meet Hippolyta Trevor the Daughter of Earth Two Wonder Woman, she will take on the name Fury, while Donna has uncovered a prophecy.. depicting the rise of an old God long defeated known as Typhon the Enemy of the Gods

Green Arrow: Ollie will still be married to Dinah, Robert Queen II will join the arrow family, Roy will gain a bigger role, Olivia Queen will be born

Aquaman: Arthur will retire with Mera, Garth will now be the king of atlantis, but he will not be the Aquaman.. Koryak will be the new Aquaman, a more brutal aquaman, although meaning well, it will feel like a tale of two brothers, Garth and Koryak will constantly butt heads.. Dolphin and Cerdian will be revealed to have not died but survived the destruction of atlantis in infinite crisis having been taken by atlan, Cerdian will have aged to 10 having been in the pocket dimension with atlan so long... the family will be reunited at last.. Cerdian will become Aqualad

Captain Marvel: Billy and Mary go on a quest to get their powers back which they do successfully, Freddy and Kit Freeman reunite the long lost freeman Brothers together at last they go on a journey through hell together

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