#it doesn't matter i'm more into greek stuff

[yanderewhxrewrites]

I just know that Katsuki and Eijirou tower over their significant others. It doesn't matter how tall you are because they are guaranteed to be taller than you. When it comes to body stuff I like to think that Katsuki is on the leaner side because of his strict diet and exercise routine. He has abs that glisten in the sunlight and thighs as strong as steel. I headcannon that using his quirk burns a lot of his calories—it takes a lot out of him, and that's why he's more of a really muscular stick. Now Kirishima is my favorite to talk about because he's just so muscular. I'm being serious when I say hes made out of pure muscle fat. He has more of a bigger physique and Katsuki likes to say he's built like a bear (fuzzy but strong as fuck as he likes to say) l think that haters make fun of Kirishima being more on the chubbier side and it can make him kinda insecure but you and Katsuki have no hesitation to show him just how sexy his body is 😏

OH MY GOD DONT EVEN GET ME STARTED ON IZUKU

I just know that Izuku is built like the FUCKING GREAT WALL OF CHINA. He's the only one that can compete with Kirishima when it comes to being just an absolute unit. He's bigger than both Eijirou and Katsuki because of all for one (shut up he didn't lose it) and he's got those biddies that you can just smoosh your face into AND HES HAIRY WITH SCARS AND FRECKLES ALL OVER HIS BODY ISTG HE IS LIKE A SCULPTURE MADE BY THE GREEK GODS THEMSELVES

[genericpuff]

Hi, So one of my Characters was inspired by two goddess: Meilone and Despoina (Another Daughter of Demeter) and I've been trying to get more information on Despoina, I've used a Greek mythology site that I'm familiar with I even had some help from A.I search. Any tips?

Aahh, first tip, don't use AI ! At least in its current state, there's literally nothing it can factually offer you that normal Google searches can't. I know for some folks it's tempting because it kind of "summarizes" everything and makes the process of research a lot less intimidating, but the drawback to summarizing - especially through AI - is that it picks and chooses what information it thinks is helpful to you, not information that actually is accurate or true. And a lot of that information it presents to you is skimmed from other pre-existing sources that aren't necessarily accurate or true either - it skims from Reddit, Wikipedia, and other popular discussion sources to come up with an approximation of information, but approximations can and often are still made up of weak parts. Plus, at the end of the day, the AI is still pulling from things that exist, so even if it's telling you stuff that's factually true, it isn't anything you couldn't have found on your own.

The reason you're struggling to pull up anything on Despoina is because "Despoina" doesn't really exist, at least not as some concrete deity the same way Zeus and Demeter do. "Despoina" only has a handful of sources mentioning her, and a good chunk of them refer to her not as Demeter's daughter, but as an epithet.

Understand that sometimes not finding enough information isn't a fault of our own for "not looking hard enough" - sometimes it's because that information just currently does not exist, especially when it comes to the matter of ancient cultural studies, where what's available is strictly limited to what we've discovered and what's been made publicly accessible. In those situations, you really just gotta work with what you've got, and do your best in digging up information outside of the most popular sources, because you never know what you could be missing out on simply because Google decided not to show you.

I'm gonna go on one of my classic tangents here but it's a topic that's very interesting to me! So I'm just gonna dive into it, but I'll include a jump for those who don't want this clogging up their feed :>

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When you really get into the meat of studying Greek mythology - or really any cultural mythology - it's unfortunately not as cut and dry as reading up on lore or skimming a Wikipedia page. There are thousands of years of cultural interaction, trading of oral stories, re-interpretations through cultural adoption and/or colonization, political satirizing and/or re-tooling to suit specific sociopolitical views, and religious influence at play (among MANY other influences) which make up what we now understand as "Greek mythology" in its simplest terms.

Much of what we still study today is debatable as to what is truly "Greek", because of all the cultural mixing that was happening between the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Africans, etc. that resulted not only in its adopters creating new versions of older Greek stories, but "Greek myth" in and of itself being influenced by the societies that came before it. I've mentioned this before, but even Homer is a hot topic of debate, mostly discussing whether or not he was a real person, or if - like Despoina - the name "Homer" is just an epithet to refer to one or more poets whose works were preserved as culturally relevant interpretations of the stories and beliefs that were being passed around at that time. These are what make up the Homeric Hymns, but think about this - those hymns were in and of themselves retellings. Homer - whether one tangible person or many ambiguous voices as a collective - was simply putting stories that were already being told orally to paper, from their own perspective, which we managed to uncover and preserve over the course of thousands of years, during which we would continue to re-interpret it based on new translations and discoveries that would shift our context of knowledge.

With all that in mind, now think of all the stories that were lost, either because modern scholars haven't uncovered them, or because Homer just never thought to include them, or possibly didn't know of them himself. Think of all the stories that we assume to be true which could have had entirely different meanings when told as bedtime stories over the fire, or as epics of war to inspire soldiers, or as romantic poems sung to an audience.

I know everything I just said is a lot and is, in and of itself, wholly interpretive and subjective. But think about all that, and then understand why I'm so wary about using AI to do the work of the analysis for you. Not only does it remove so much necessary context from discussion that's already missing context in many areas, it undercuts the joy of discovery.

All that said, Despoina is, as far as we currently know, theorized to be one of two things:

1.) A daughter of Demeter who may or may not have been born during The Hymn to Demeter, who was worshipped as a deity within the Eleusinian Mysteries but - due to her nature as a deity of a secretive cult - does not have much evidence to support what she could have been specifically worshipped for, as her worshippers were sworn to secrecy. "Despoina" may not have even been her real name, just a name used to refer to her among cultists or anyone who wasn't a part of the congregation to ensure her true name was protected (similarly to Kore and Persephone, she could be a deity with "two names" that serve two different purposes and interpretations).

2.) An epithet, meaning "mistress", to refer to one or several different women, usually fertility goddesses, including Demeter, Persephone, and even Aphrodite and Hecate. This doesn't necessarily mean that "Despoina" as a goddess didn't exist, just that the word "Despoina" can also be used to refer to goddesses within the cult to keep their names a secret. And if Despoina did exist as her own deity... again, we don't know her true name, just the title that was used to refer to her, whoever "she" was.

The thing is, there is tangible material that supports either or both arguments. And even if more evidence came out to support one over the other, it doesn't invalidate either of them - this is just how it is with mythologies and religion, different cultures and tribes and groups would hold different beliefs, and the beliefs that reign supreme are often determined by the highest power. This is obviously why so many Roman interpretations of the Greek gods are now the "default" interpretations, because Rome was a very powerful empire that had the ability to absorb other mythologies, create their own adaptions of them, and then enforce them as the natural order. The popularity of Catholicism as an organized religion is owed to the Roman Empire, and even it still has its divided subgroups who have separated from the main doctrines of Catholicism due to having different beliefs.

Even think of the Bible, which many people hold up as the "gold standard" despite never having even read it. They subsequently don't understand that what we know as "the Bible" is a curated library of works that were preserved over hundreds of years, first documenting the trials and tribulations of the Jews and the building of Israel, and eventually leading to Jesus Christ and his fellow fandom mutuals (the apostles) coming in and deciding "nah that Old Testament blows, let's make a new one! No more circumcisions! Bread and wine and bacon for everyone!" (<<< I am obviously paraphrasing here for the sake of efficiency and a little bit of levity lmao) This is why, to this day, we get so many people still arguing over whether or not Jesus hated gay people, because some point to specific scriptures written by apostles like Paul and Matthew, while others point to scriptures from the Old Testament which pre-existed Jesus by centuries.

As much as we may refer to a "canon" within Greek mythology, those commonly known facts are still based on previous interpretations that in and of themselves were constantly debated and fought over. People even went to literal war over this shit, because it turns out, human beings haven't really changed all that much - we're loyal to our most favorite fandoms, and crucify anyone who disagrees with our established canons. And none of that is to patronize the cultural, spiritual, and political importance of these stories - more so just to point out why it's so hard to track down clear cut information for certain myths, because how legitimate those myths even were within their own context and time is unsubstantiated and debatable.

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TL ; DR: If you're making characters inspired by an ambiguous deity who doesn't have a lot of evidence to support them, just do what you can to find the evidence that exists, and maintain your own level of understanding and transparency that you can't possibly accurately depict a character who's either directly based off a Greek myth deity or simply inspired by one when what is and isn't accurate is still often up for debate by people who are actually trained and paid to debate these things. On the one hand, it means someone will likely be bound to argue with your interpretation and it may leave you searching for ways to improve upon any misrepresentations; on the other, know that this is just passing on the torch of a tradition that has been practiced by humans ever since the first cave drawing and we are all, by and large, doing what we've always been naturals at doing - expressing our views and perspectives of the world that make sense to ourselves, and then getting yelled at when it doesn't make sense to others LMAO

Be earnest and humble in your attempts to tell a story that feels true to you, and remember that the process of discovery - the research - is half the journey, and half the fun :> Even if you get things wrong, be willing to take ownership of it and view it as an opportunity to learn even more. Therein lies the true joy of creating - the endless potential for discovery.

[bones4thecats]

Hi! I was wondering if you can do Poseidon X Goddess of music!Reader and the reader rarely come out of her house and if she does for example: when she goes to any meeting she always has this mask on:

and she always sits next to Poseidon for some reason she feels safe with him...?

Thanks if you do this request!

<3

God of Music! S/O Feeling Protected

Type of Writing: Request Character: Poseidon Name: God of Music! S/O Feeling Protected Requester: @imperfectbloodmoon

A/N: These may not be the best thing I've ever written, but I'm trying my best to keep up with stuff from my classes and with these requests. But, I do hope you guys enjoy this!

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🔱 Alright, let's get one thing clear; Poseidon is a fairly oblivious man when it comes to emotions, which should be obvious

🔱 Poseidon was fairly wary when you first started to get close to him. He just isn't used to anyone trying to bond with him in any way, because many see him as a dangerous being

🔱 Which he technically is

🔱 Now, if you were a mortal or nymph, this guy would just push you aside and claim you to be a worthless being, not worthy of his time and patience

🔱 But, once he asked you who you were and you introduced yourself as the Deity of Music within the Greek Pantheon, working alongside that of Hermes and Apollo, he began to see you with more worth

🔱 Poseidon enjoys listening to your songs that you either sing or play on an instrument. He personally enjoys more slow and calming songs while he looks over his underwater kingdom

🔱 And he does enjoy your more reclusive nature, since he's not a very large people-person himself

🔱 He understands a lot more about you than anyone could realize, even yourself for that matter

🔱 But one thing he never fully understood was your need to wear that beautifully decorated mask that covered your entire face whenever you were to leave your shared home

🔱 Poseidon has claimed his love for both your personality and your looks often, though he's fairly monotone sounding, you can hear the amount of pulsing emotion underneath

🔱 Whenever he gets notice that one of his brothers is coming over, he tries to get you to keep the mask off; these are your family members, after all. They know how you look because they attended your wedding all those centuries ago

🔱 If you were to give him a good reason (such as; you didn't want Zeus to try protruding into your backside) then he would understand a bit better. But if you claimed you believed you didn't look good enough, he'd be beyond shocked

🔱 Like I mentioned earlier, Poseidon has claimed his love for both your personality and physical appearance. So the fact that you would still be insecure would make him feel the need to prove you were beyond good enough for a God like him

🔱 Okay, beyond the topic of the role and mask. He, like I also mentioned, doesn't understand emotions fully

🔱 Because of this, Poseidon is quite confused whenever you wanted to sit by him (before your relationship) at meetings, since normally everyone, deities included, were scared of him

🔱 Yet, every time you sat beside him, he never tried pushing you away, much to both of yours and everyone else's surprise

🔱 Despite his inability to understand why you personally wanted to be beside him, he does have quite a few hunches that many believe is true

🔱 One is that you wanted to be by someone who you knew wouldn't be to loud, the second is that you wanted to be closer to him, as he is in your pantheon, and his third one is that you wanted to be with somebody because you wanted to feel safer and protected from other Gods who may have bad intentions

🔱 Poseidon always mainly leans to the third one

🔱 After you guys started your relationship and got married, he started to have you sit right next to him. And by that, I mean by he'd have you sit either on his lap or right beside him

🔱 If I haven't mentioned it, he's possessive of what he deems to be his. Yes, he does allow you to be your own person, but he doesn't want anyone to get any ideas; specifically Zeus

🔱 He cannot keep his hands to himself, and that is coming from his own older brother!

[therapybard]

Athena Sibling Headcanons

Note: I'm far from an expert on Greek mythology, so most of this is vibes based. I am also going off the headcanon that Athena is the oldest

Apollo: They both have a lot of respect for each other, but they don't talk much. Apollo looked up to Athena when he was younger. That faded as he grew up and got tired of her no-nonsense attitude. He's all about finding a healthy work-life balance and Athena... isn't. He loves her handicrafts but the way she talks about it puts a bad taste in his mouth. She acts like it's inherently less worthy than her other domains and only engages in it as a favor to others. As if art has no worth besides utility. He also doesn't like how Athena talks about wounds and punishments, mostly when Zeus punishes one of the gods. Athena thinks some pain should remain as a lesson, while Apollo can't resist the urge to heal everything, no matter what caused the injury.

Artemis: Artemis is one of the two Olympians that would call Athena a friend, even if Athena's pride wouldn't let her say the same. They've had a lot to bond over. You'd think it'd mostly be female warrior stuff, but most of their talks are like "Everyone else in this stupid family is so obsessed with sex what's wrong with them get me out of here". As Artemis started drifting away from the family, she tried to encourage Athena to do the same. She knew how dissatisfied she was under Zeus's thumb. Athena refused, reminding Artemis not to neglect her duties. This drove a wedge between them that has yet to fully heal. Even so, they speak to each other often and always seek the other out at social gatherings.

Aphrodite: Athena, contrary to popular opinion, respects and appreciates Aphrodite's domains. Love is a very important force in the world and is clearly very powerful. It just isn't for her. No just romantic love, but attachments in general have never worked out for her. She prefers clear, transactional relationships. It's safer. Aphrodite resents Athena for this. No matter how much Athena insists she respects Aphrodite, words have never meant anything to her. Aphrodite values actions, provable passion. Athena, in her eyes, has no passion whatsoever. She's just their father's living weapon, ready to do his bidding at a moment's notice. Aphrodite can't understand her and has given up trying.

Ares: WAR SIBLINGS!!!! Okay, I know I know, most depictions put them at odds. That's all well and good, and I like that to an extent, but they certainly don't hate each other. They bicker and complain and put each other down, but they know they're both necessary. I've always interpreted Athena as representing generals while Ares represents the soldiers. Athena thinks Ares is too small-minded and bloodthirsty. Ares thinks Athena is dishonorable and passionless. He hates trickery and fully believes in a "might makes right" approach to warfare. Athena just sees war as a means to an end, hopefully a peaceful one.

Dionysus: Athena mostly ignores Dionysus. He's got his own thing going on and it's... fine, but it has nothing to do with her. Whatever. Dionysus, on the other hand, hates Athena. In an arch enemy sort of way. He doesn't actively want to harm Athena, but he hates everything she stands for. She's always serious, says wine 'distorts the mind' too much for her liking, considers dancing a waste of time, and NEVER goes to his parties. The audacity...

Hephaestus: (note: I like the version of his story where he's just Hera's child so maybe he should be here, but come on. He should be here.) Athena's other friend! He's probably the god Athena talks to most often, even more than Zeus. They're both the introverts of a family. Everyone else is just so loud and chaotic. When things are overwhelming, they'll often go to each other and craft/forge in silence. Despite her obsession with utility and efficiency, she's the only Olympian besides Hestia that never pushed Hephaestus to 'fix' his disability. She accepted him as he was, and helped him a lot when he finally decided to work on a metal leg. While their other siblings consider Athena cold and emotionless, Hephaestus knows appearances aren't everything. So what if she doesn't show her love the way everyone else does? He knows she's a good person at her core.

Hermes: Hermes is the only Olympian that works as hard as Athena does, granting him her infinite respect. They share a love of speed and efficiency. Though they have almost nothing else in common, it's enough for them both. While she isn't a huge fan of mischief, she can admire the thought that goes into his pranks. He's intelligent and Athena knows it. She just wishes he always put his energy to better use. Hermes, similarly, likes Athena. They aren't friends, and he's more than willing to smack talk her with their siblings, but he knows how hard she works and respects that. He helps keep people away when Athena's busy, and she lets him hide in her palace when he takes a prank too far.

[sparklesandpudding]

Haii can you do a hcs of the Greek brothers (Zeus included but it's fine if you don't want to) to their S/O who is a mortal from the modern era?? I rllyy like your writing especially the Apollo's one ^^

Ofc! I'm sorry for the long wait 🙇‍♀️ I've been eating and rotting in my bed for a while. I dont really know about what you are requesting, there's only very little description. So I'll try my best ^^

RoR Greek bros with modern mortal s/o

Zues

- Mf is old as hell, literally. He'd be asking you all sorts of crap and wonder about the technology you have. He already knows about it, but he does like to stare and wonder what you do all day in that little rectangular piece of technology.

- He also tries to find ways to make you immortal, cus duh, he really likes you. But I think he'd be interested in cute little farm games online when you show him the stuff that you can do on your phone.

- he asks you to buy him a gadget, which you do so. but man, he sucks ass at it. You find him trying to figure out how to use it. Holding it upside down, pressing on all sorts of buttons until you have to lend me some help.

- he's also fond of the slangs and way you talk. He often uses your words too. Like "Lmfao!" Or "LOL!!"

- he wants to learn more about modern society, and everything there is to learn about. Until he found out about google. Mf now keeps on asking the stupidest questions, and even calls his brother's on facetime, just to talk to them about the stupidest shit.

- he'd laugh so loud when it comes to you telling him jokes from your TikTok brainrots and all.

- you talk to him about all the newest things happening, and all. And drama. But I think he's more interested in learning new words.

Adamas

- yes he does use the slangs too. I bet he'd randomly gangsta talk outta nowhere and make the most out of pocket statements.

- give him some love, he's just having fun especially after all the stuff he went through.

- I know damn well he makes yo mama jokes, no matter how old that stuff be. He's older than you bro, he's been alive for a very long time. So you better teach him more to mama jokes.

- your fashion sense was interesting, he wanna dress cool too. So he's gonna force you to show him clothes that he'd like to wear, and he'd pick the edgiest ones. 😭

- he often gets annoyed at how you're always on your phone and not paying attention to him, which makes him wonder what's so good about it.

- you gave him a gadget, which he now likes to watch anime in, or sports probably. Basically anything interesting.

Hades

- he finds you very endearing, and loves you very much. He'd find a way to turn you immortal so that he can care for you forever.

- yes he installed wifi in his place so that you could stay happy, and do whatever the hell you do on your gadgets.

- Bet you bought a TV and watched anime there with him, or maybe TV series or shows. Could even be horror movies. He loves to cuddle up with you whenever you guys watch a horror movie, cus he knows that he'll be the one to protect you when you get scared or tired.

- when you gave him a gadget, he didn't know what to use it for, but you said that he could chat with other people no matter where they at. And even store photos of whatever he wanted.

- it truly amazed him how far humanity had evolved. Now he can just search up anything he had questions about, or facetime his brother's, or buy something for you.

- he likes to listen to songs he finds, and now he's never really bored like he used to be. Maybe gadgets weren't so bad. He knows how to limit himself, and that's why he tries to limit it fro you too. He doesn't want your eyes to hurt, and wants you to get rest.

- there's so many things he wants to learn from you. And how humans do their daily thing. It's amusing to watch.

Poseidon

- Bro he really loves you a lot, he just doesn't show it. But it definitely caught his attention seeing the odd way you talked or acted.

- when you introduced him to a gadget, he just shook it off, not wanting to get into pathetic little things like that, but you insisted. So now there he was.

- he really thought that humans were babied. The fact that they all gotten so lazy over the centuries gave him the ick.

- but he did find some helpful words to use whenever it came to describing stuff. But that's till doesn't help with anything. Like y'all have google, you don't need to waste your time studying when you can just do a quick search and boom, all the answers are there.

- you guys had online shopping, you didn't need to use your legs to do some work when you could just order online. And so much more. Humanity was babied. Everyone was pathetic in his eyes.

- but, you were an exception. Cus he liked you lots.

- I believe that over time, he'd catch himself talking like you, like "it gives me the ick." 💀

- he's such a bitch, but it's ok. Cus it's Poseidon.

[scoobydoodean]

Okay so in 1.03 Dead In The Water, there's this exchange Sam and Dean have at one point in regards to Lucas—the little boy who watched his dad drown, who Dean connects with during the episode:

DEAN Andrea said the kid never drew like that till his dad died. SAM There are cases—going through a traumatic experience could make people more sensitive to premonitions, psychic tendencies. DEAN Whatever's out there, what if Lucas is tapping into it somehow? I mean, it's only a matter of time before somebody else drowns, so if you got a better lead, please.

And the last time I watched this episode, I went "Oh cool! A little Psychic!Sam Easter Egg." Right? Sam goes through the traumatic experience of losing Jess, and he's tapped into "whatever's out there" (the yellow eyed demon) and he's having premonitions about what he's going to do next. Which definitely makes a lot of sense.

But when I was gif-ing stuff from 1.03 today, I realized that... funnily enough, within the context of this episode we also have some fun stuff relating to the "slightly psychic Dean" posts that have gone around this year... Or if you prefer, Cassandra!Dean. Cassandra, in reference to the prophet in Greek myth, cursed by Apollo to utter true prophecies but never be believed.

Dean often knows when bad things are going to happen in Supernatural. He doesn't have visions—but he has "bad feelings" and makes predictions that turn out to be scarily accurate at times. Of course we can infer that Dean is just good at 1) reading people and 2) understanding how sequences of events tumble one by one in a row like so many dominoes. It's another sign of his incredible intelligence. But it IS fun to think about Dead In The Water as the first indication of Cassandra!Dean.

First, because Lucas has premonitions, and Lucas and Dean are paralleled and connect on an emotional level.

Dean and Lucas have similar traumatic childhood experiences. Both watched a parent die and both lost the ability to speak afterwards:

DEAN You're scared. It's okay. I understand. See, when I was your age, I saw something real bad happen to my mom, and I was scared, too. I didn't feel like talking, just like you. But see, my mom—I know she wanted me to be brave. I think about that every day. And I do my best to be brave. And maybe, your dad wants you to be brave too.

Dean is able to connect with Lucas through their shared traumatic experience. He's the only one who's able to get through to him—and after a short conversation and just drawing together for a while—much to his mom's shock. Dean is able to understand what Lucas is feeling without Lucas saying it.

Second, because Lucas has bad feelings that tell him the locations where the spirit will strike next, but no one listens to/believes him.

...Kind of like people usually don't listen to/believe Dean's bad feelings.

DEAN Anyway. Well, maybe you don't think anyone will listen to you, or, uh...or believe you. I want you to know that I will. You don't even have to say anything. You could draw me a picture about what you saw that day, with your dad, on the lake.

Of course, this line is just Dean paralleling Lucas with himself and his own reasons for not speaking, but it must hit home, because Lucas begins communicating with Dean through drawings.

Further, despite Sam also knowing Lucas is having premonitions, when Lucas reacts with extreme distress to the idea of going home and clings to Dean desperately, Sam still... doesn't think it means anything. He thinks the case is over.

Third, Dean has a bad feeling that the case isn't over, and Sam doesn't believe him.

The sheriff had just threatened to arrest them if they stayed in town, so of course going back to town is a big deal. When Dean turns around based on a bad feeling, Sam thinks he's just being paranoid.

SAM But Dean, this job, I think it's over. DEAN I'm not so sure. SAM If Bill murdered Peter Sweeney and Peter's spirit got its revenge, case closed. The spirit should be at rest. DEAN All right, so what if we take off and this thing isn't done? You know, what if we've missed something? What if more people get hurt? SAM But why would you think that? DEAN Because Lucas was really scared. SAM That's what this is about?

Dean sticks to his guns, and they arrive just in time to save Lucas's mother from drowning in a bathtub.

[beauty-and-passion]

Love Olympus: the "charming" lessons we learned from it

Hi! Are you searching for a good story, filled with creativity, care, coherence and beautiful art style? Then please, turn left and you will find something worth your time.

Here we will talk about that beautiful, terrible disaster that is Lore Olympus. Ah, it's always so nice to read a new retelling of Greek mythology and find out it's basically the same 200 stereotypes slapped together into something that's way older and staler than the original. What did my ancestor ever do to the world, to be treated like that.

But I've already talked about what a waste of potential Lore Olympus is, how pathetic the writing is and how bad the protagonists are. I've spent more than enough words commenting on why this series could've been great and came out like this.

Now there's only one thing left: to make fun of it. To draw our conclusions on the whole thing and the finale and find out what "wonderful" messages we got from it.

Don't worry: the messages are absolutely wonderful and I'm not sarcastic, not at aaaaall.

_______________________________

Planning in advance is for the weak

Don't you know how to fill your third season, after the "battle" that closed season 2? No problem! People will read you anyway, so instead of planning and moving the plot forward, waste everyone's time writing chapter after chapter of pure nothingness: your characters can have discussions so stupid, that people will question if they have been written by using ChatGPT. That will surely prove what a great writer you are!

And don't worry too much about the plot: just wait until inspiration magically falls from the sky. That's how it works, isn't it? Stories are just random events slapped together, with no planning, care or coherence whatsoever. When we write a story, we don't want to treat our readers like intelligent human beings, oh no: people are idiots, so we can just throw them the first shit that pops out of our minds and everything will be fine.

_______________________________

Coherence is for the weak

After waiting for inspiration (that somehow hasn't fallen from the sky yet, jeez I wonder why), you still don't know what to do with your plot? Easy, use one of the villains! Like the rapist guy! Now he's running for President.

Yes, we know there is a monarchy in this land, because there is a king, but it doesn't matter. The rapist is trying to be President now. President of what, you ask? It doesn't matter! Presidents exist, right? So he's trying to be one, that's all you need to know.

Will he become President? He's running from it, that's all! You don't need to know what happens after that! As we all know, stories do not have closed plot points, they're just random shit thrown around. So why care about solving a problem you just raised? Just forget it, it's not important.

Is the story supposed to take place in Olympus or, at least, in Greece? Well, what's the problem? As we all know, Europe and the US are basically the same thing, so how different can Greece and America be?

I mean: one is a huge country with many climate zones and wide areas, the other is a small, hot country mostly made of mountains and islands. One has a millennia-years-old culture that influenced the entirety of the West, the other is literally called the New World, to emphasize how young it is. Same place.

So, since they're so similar they're basically identical, just fill your Greece with American stuff and give your characters English names. Greece is notoriously full of English names. It's not like there are millions of people with similar names because parents give their own parents' names to their offspring and sometimes all siblings give their parents' names to all their children and the result is that your cousins all have the same goddamn name and you all came up with nicknames to distinguish between them.

No, that's not based on personal experience, what makes you think that.

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The protagonist is better than anyone else

Is Zeus telling you he wants to give his child to some nymphs, because he knows won't be a good father? Well, clearly the most normal thing to do is steal his baby. No, not because you're a psychopath, but because you clearly know how to handle the baby better than some nymphs. Remember: you are the protagonist, hence you are better at everything anyone can do, especially a stupid nymph. You will care for the baby more and better than anyone else, no doubt.

Is the child you stole running around without supervision? But you took care of him! You even hired a babysitter! No, of course you didn't spend time with him, you were busy! What? It could've been better to leave the child with the nymphs as Zeus wanted, because at least they would've spent their time with the child and not hired someone else to do it? Listen, we don't work with logic here and you are the protagonist, so of course all of your decisions are perfect and should never be questioned.

Speaking of kids: is your mother telling you she had a son who died? Time for some favoritism! Your husband is the god of the dead, so death isn't a problem anymore. What? Death is supposed to be impossible to overcome? But you're the protagonist, so the mere mortals' rules do not apply to you. Death is nothing, compared to your perfection.

Oh no, you accidentally caused winter! And a genocide! But remember: you're the protagonist, so of course you're always perfect. And you didn't do it on purpose, so you're automatically innocent and people attacking you are just mean and jealous.

See? You're so perfect, you found a way to solve the problem! How? Easy, by believing in yourself ✨✨✨ And by talking (badly) about how life and death are linked. Yes, we know it's the equivalent of saying that 2+2=4, but we don't want to treat our readers like intelligent people, here. All they have to do is just revel in your perfection.

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More villains! Because Yes!

Do you still have no idea what to do with your plot, after too many useless chapters? Easy, use the cartoonish supervillain! He will do the trick! And throw another naked woman to defeat him: it worked once, it'll work again.

Is your cartoonish supervillain actually useless? No problem, make another villain even more useless. And make him appear out of thin air for two chapters. And since readers are stupid, just tell them that he was the evil mastermind behind everything. They'll eat it up.

Oh, and President Loser is in cahoots with SuperMegaVillain now. Why? Because Yes, of course.

You don't know how to defeat SuperMegaVillain? 🧑‍🤝‍🧑Avengers Assemble🧑‍🤝‍🧑and you're done. It worked for Marvel, it'll work for your story too. I know it's settled in Greece and fertility goddesses do not have resurrection powers or whatever the fuck they're doing, but shhhhh.

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Random justice is good

With all those villains to defeat, you forgot your story is supposed to be a retelling of the myth of Hades and Persephone? No problem, just stick a "Gaia Ex-Machina" here and let her solve the story with a power and authority she doesn't have. No one will notice the difference.

Speaking of justice: is the rapist gonna get the punishment he deserves? Sure, get this: he will fall in love with you and turn himself in. And he will get community service as punishment.

Are you saying that this isn't a real punishment? But of course it is! He turned himself in! The victim isn't allowed to expose him, nor to see him actually getting punished. All the victim can do is walk away. It's not that lack of control is a big deal for a rape victim, right? And seeing the rapist finally get punished won't give them the catharsis they need, right? And it definitely won't free them of the huge weight they carry on, because of the awful, horrible act they suffered from, right?

Of course not, so ah ah ah, the rapist gets to build places, very funny. And aside from that stupid punishment, of course he's free to walk around and, who knows?, maybe rape someone else. Wow, justice truly works well in this place! I would feel so safe to go around there!

_______________________________

Queer people are stupid too (and ghosts, sometimes)

All those villains could've been great in a story centered around Zeus? We don't work with Zeus here: we hate men, all men except for the capitalist hubby of our dreams. So Zeus is a useless piece of shit and he will keep being a useless piece of shit until the end. Also, he's not a real king anymore, because apparently democracy popped out of nowhere and everyone just rolls with it. I wonder why it too centuries to accept it all over the world...

And Hera is a lesbian now. Why? I already told you we don't work with logic here. She's a lesbian because queer people are idiots too, so thrown them a queer character and they will like it, doesn't matter if it makes zero sense.

Uh? Are you saying that asexual and aromantic people exist too? No, of course not: they're just waiting for the hot lesbian of their dreams or for the hubby that will turn them into wives and mothers.

Hence why the organization centered around celibacy closed: it was just a cover for lesbians after all! And we all know that women can only be lesbians or mothers. A woman doesn't want or feel any romantic attraction? She doesn't exist, then.

Wow people, I don't exist! I'm a ghost!

_______________________________

Feminism means gender stereotypes

As Wikipedia says, feminism is:

"... a range of socio-political movements and ideologies that aim to define and establish the political, economic, personal, and social equality of the sexes."

But Wikipedia is stupid, while we won a shit ton of prizes for some reason, so we're the good authors here. And we decided that feminism means "women good, men bad". This definitely isn't a point of view based on a warping of the original concept of feminism, that focused on helping women because, since societies are patriarchal, men already have a powerful position. Hence why, feminism fought (and fights) to give women a powerful position too: to make both genders on the same plane.

But nope, this is all stupid and wrong and doing research is underrated - after all, we wrote a story entirely based on the first shit that popped into our mind, so why do research about this? Let's focus on the superficial vision of feminism and fight for women's equality, by making them lesbians or mothers.

Because sure, feminism is good, but capitalism is better. And since capitalism wants you to have kids, go home to your rich hubby and have a ton of kids you definitely won't neglect, like the child you stole or the supposed godson you never cared about and only after he's an adult "sometimes" you have a conversation with. That's how a perfect, traditional family works, after all. And we know this didn't lead to any generational trauma at aaaaall.

_______________________________

In conclusion

I don't know if you noticed the teeny tiny veil of sarcasm in my words. I know, it was so subtle, almost invisible. I made it oh-so-hard to find it, please let me know how hard it was.

But you know what? This story is over and I needed to let some sarcasm out. I am finally free to read something else, possibly (hopefully!) better.

And the next time I will approach another retelling... who am I kidding, I know I will fall for it like an idiot because that's what I do every time. They get me with something I love and once I find out it's shitty, I keep reading because I want to see how bad it is.

In this, Lore Olympus didn't disappoint: I expected something bad, I got something bad. And, sometimes, it was so bad, to make me laugh, so extra points for the stupidity: I appreciate something that makes me laugh, way more than something that makes me angry.

And, as I said in my previous posts, even something bad is useful, because it teaches you how NOT to do something.

So thank you, Lore Olympus, for being a terrible teacher. And thank you for making me appreciate the original myths even more. There's a reason why they still stand after millennials and can still capture the popular imagination, while this series will probably be forgotten in a couple years.

To you all, my readers: if you managed to reach the end of LO like me, congrats for surviving it, I hope you learned something useful about how to make better art.

But if you never approached Lore Olympus, don't do it: it's not worth the time you will lose.

Unless you want to see with your own eyes how does it look a story with zero planning and random ideas thrown everywhere. In that case, please, be my guest: read it and learn how not to write. You will learn a lot from this.

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(How about a coffee? ☕)

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[vidavalor]

Does Aziraphale drink coffee, do you think? I keep seeing people who think he doesn't because they think he doesn't know what espresso does but he also has a regular order? Do you think there's a word thing happening here? Thanks!

Hi there. 💕 Thanks for the ask. I hope you're having a great day. There are eccles cakes for snacks tonight as it felt appropriate for this one. 😊 We've actually seen Aziraphale drink coffee back in 1.01 in the scene at The Ritz in 2008 so I'm also frequently confused by people saying that they think he doesn't know what coffee is. Seems a bit of a stretch... Yeah, I think there's a wordplay thing happening in the Six Shots of Espresso scene that might be at the root of the coffee confusion.

Let's look at what coffee is in Good Omens and Aziraphale's joke around the word calm.

When we use calm today, we mean a sense of peace and relaxation. The word comes from the Greek kauma, though, which originally meant heat, as well as the Latin calere, which meant to feel hot.

To that end? Something that is calm in Ineffable Husbands Speak is something that brings about a sense of peace and relaxation through heat, which is a way to describe not just a hot cup of coffee but, also, well... sex. But why is Aziraphale describing sex when they're ordering coffee?

Let's back up and look at Crowley's very laced-with-their-vocabulary coffee order:

Take a big cup. Put six shots of espresso into it. Nothing else.

Big: Original definitions: generous; powerful, strong; a great man.

Cup: For a such little word, it has an unexpectedly fun history. A cup is a drinking vessel, yes. It also meant a ship's hull at one point. These two and their fish-and-the-sea stuff... Even more amusing, it also once meant a beehive. Later on in S2, we get Crowley explaining the angels = bees analogy to Muriel that holds up within Crowley & Aziraphale's speak in different scenes as well. Additionally, there's cup as a verb-- to cup, as in to take something in hand with the hand in a curved, cup-like shape. Crowley cupping a cup as visual innuendo in the pub scene in S2:

The word cup also contains the word up.

Up = Heaven/angels/Aziraphale.

Contrast with Aziraphale then replying with "does it calm you down?"

Big Cup = Aziraphale.

So, what does Crowley feeling like doing with the big cup he'd like to take this morning? Putting six shots of espresso into it.

Six shots: Six, from the Latin verb sex. Aziraphale as The Great Beast joke from the Odegra scene. 666 aka The Mark of the Beast in S1 was the literal numbers and part of Adam's phone number. In S2, it's the Latin verb root of the word six-- so, it's sex, sex, sex... 😂

Shots -- form of measurement for two euphemistic beverages in Good Omens: alcohol and coffee.

Shots contains hot (self-explanatory) and hots, the slang for peppers, which Aziraphale also uses to describe Crowley in a couple of different ways in Demon's Guide to Angelic Beings. It was also part of Aziraphale's "sitting on it" sword joke to Crowley in S1 where the handle looked like a pepper grinder.

[On the story's overall wordplay level, as opposed to within Crowley and Aziraphale's speak, there is also that Crowley's paralleling character in The Them is Pepper.]

Espresso: Coffee. Literally translated: fast coffee. Also contains press, a word that overlaps food and seamstress euphemistic speak-- so, a little nod towards Mrs. Sandwich. You press clothes with an iron. You make a hot sandwich with a panini press. Something that is urgent-- like a very in-the-mood demon who knows something is irritatingly wrong and would rather they be meeting for breakfast as a date without any problems and so is ordering sexually euphemistic coffee-- is a pressing matter. 😉

Nothing else: You can leave it at nothing else alone and it works but it's also: know thin elks. To know in the old, religious sense is to know someone "biblically"-- to be sleeping with someone-- which is how Crowley uses it still in the context of their speak: "Just enough of a bastard to be worth knowing."/"He's just an angel I know."/"We've known each other a long time."/what he says to Aziraphale when he thinks they're going to die in S1: "It was nice knowing you."

I've noticed a few instances of the word thin and/or words containing it referring to Crowley, with this being one of them. Elks are a kind of deer native to North America, a little joke on the fact that they're in the American-themed Give Me Coffee or Give Me Death. Their whole horses thing (and every other animal thing basically lol) is also a deer thing. Deer is homophonic for dear. "My dear" and "My dear fellow" are also "my deer" and "my deer fellow."

Nothing else = Know Thin Elks = Crowley self-proclaiming himself the thin, American deer who'd like to break fast, err, breakfast lol with some biblical knowledge with the angelic big cup.

Shout out to Nina Sosanya (the actress, not the character) for being able to not just laugh through this. The hand gestures are, unintentionally on the part of the character, Crowley's euphemistic order as well: Six aka sex. Being one. Bigggggg cup. 🤭

So, basically, the coffee confusion comes from Aziraphale's response to Crowley's coffee order-- so, let's look at that. Crowley's coffee order with Nina means to her that he wants a literal big cup filled with six shots of literal espresso but, to Aziraphale, it's putting in a request for sex using the coffee euphemistically. Crowley said he wanted to take the big cup and fill it with some shots of espresso mmhmm, to which Aziraphale then replied:

That sounds fun. Does it calm you down?

The big cup is game to know the thin elk 😉 and he has some words for him in return, even if he's joking by pretending that they're really only talking about Crowley's literal coffee order.

Sound is what you hear so Aziraphale's acknowledging that he hears the wordplay and knows that Crowley is pressed for more than espresso at the moment. He heard the Ineffable Husbands Speak happening. A sound is also a body of water and was a word that originally also meant the act of swimming, so we've got some extra of their favorite sexual metaphor-- fish-and-the-sea/bodies-of-water-- in here as well.

We already looked at how calm means relaxing through heat above. Aziraphale asks if it-- both the coffee order and the "coffee order"-- calms Crowley down, responding to Crowley's use of up within cup as descriptive for Aziraphale. Neither of them are actually working for Heaven or Hell anymore, nor do they really see one another as like the other angels and demons, but it's a shorthand.

Up and down are also fun words because of the fact that they often are used in slang kind of interchangeably-- to get on up and to get down can mean the same thing, for example. The tagline for S2 is a joke around that as well: something's going down in The Up. Something going down is something happening but the something that is happening is also that angels are going down. (Might also be something to keep in mind then about the last shot of the season being Aziraphale seeming to go Up and how that really can still very much mean that he's ultimately what's going down.)

You could also, if you're of mind to, take the 'calm you down' to be something Aziraphale has in mind as well, centered around the meaning of going down that doesn't involve an elevator or stairs, if you see where I'm going with this? Given how the scene ends, I think Crowley probably heard that bit as we'll look at in a second...

Aziraphale, knowing Nina does not know the root of the word calm, nor that he and Crowley are speaking their cant vocabulary in front of her and what calm means in that vocabulary, then asks Nina a question:

This is meant to amuse Crowley because calm, to Nina, means something that's relaxing and can help mellow someone out, while calm, in Ineffable Husbands Speak, incorporates the heat-related roots of the word to make it mean something that induces a state of peace and relaxation through heat-- so, something that's sexy.

As a result, Aziraphale has set it up so that almost anything that Nina could say in response to this would be amusing to him and Crowley because, while they know she doesn't understand what they're saying beneath the surface, what she says in response here is, in that speak, as if whatever she's saying is the sexiest thing she sells.

I'm of the opinion that Aziraphale, in mentioning things that are calm, is trying to get Nina to offer him a form of tea that Aziraphale can then turn into an equally sexually euphemistic order of his own. (There are a couple of uses of tea that way in other scenes and Aziraphale had also ordered tea in the date they didn't end up having in the sushi scene in 1.01.) But Nina surprises Aziraphale with her response.

Aziraphale didn't take into account that Nina won't offer him tea because it seems too logical a choice. He's an older Englishman to Nina, so, wouldn't he just ask for tea, if that's what he wants? To her, he must be looking for something calming that is not tea. She has a quick think about it and, both unintentionally and amusingly, comes up with the one thing that she sells that not only calms people down in the way that Nina understands calm to mean-- chills them out and makes them happy-- but is also calm by Crowley and Aziraphale's standards-- chills them out and makes them happy but with an element of sex.

What Nina doesn't realize is the history of eccles cakes, which, ironically, really do meet the definition of calming people down in a sexy way by Crowley and Aziraphale speak standards. They were once banned in England for being thought of as food of the devil because they were so sinfully delicious. This scene will also probably be even funnier after S3 because, historically, eccles cakes tie to 1650-- one of the years mentioned by Aziraphale in the Apology Dance scene. If we get that flashback in S3, eccles cakes could wind up having additional layers of meaning to Crowley and Aziraphale that would add even more to this scene in S2.

Either way, Crowley and Aziraphale lived through that history, so it's already funny then that Aziraphale, in response, looks at Crowley and just says:

So, yeah, Aziraphale does know what espresso is and what caffeine is and was joking with Crowley about how he might have been ordering some calm with Aziraphale but what he ordered from Nina was anxiety in a mug.

We actually saw Aziraphale and Crowley drink coffee at The Ritz in 2008 in S1. Aziraphale's mug indicates that he was drinking a cappuccino or a latte, which are both espresso-based drinks. Crowley was not having six shots of espresso with nothing else at that moment. He was having maybe a third of that, tops, in a dessert coffee that was light enough to have milk or cream of it and may or may not have also contained alcohol. Mr. Six Shots of Espresso in a Big Cup doesn't always take his coffee that way, ah... both literally and euphemistically. 😉

They're visible on the table here:

Aziraphale's large oat milk latte with a dash of almond syrup is his usual order at Give Me Coffee or Give Me Death... which is a creepy thing for Whoever Derek Jacobi is Playing to know, I agree. It's another indication that he drinks coffee regularly. Aziraphale knows Nina not just from The Whickber Street Shopkeepers and Traders Association but because her shop is right across the street from where he lives and works so it's where he goes to get the coffee that he drinks to a point of having an usual order.

Nina doesn't know Crowley at the start of the Six Shots of Espresso scene and is surprised to see an additional twist to the bookseller's suddenly surprisingly interesting and wild sex life being that, in addition to The Naked Man Friend, the bookseller apparently has a fella-- this charming ginger with the bizarrely intense morning coffee order. Nina doesn't know Crowley because Crowley and Aziraphale don't do mornings in an effort to not get caught. Crowley's gone before dawn. Mrs. Sandwich knows about them because she works at night outside the bookshop's side door; Nina does not because she works beginning in the early mornings across the street.

The know thin elks bit-- when elks are wapitis, which means "light-colored deer"-- is then even funnier when Nina unintentionally uses an idiom that goes along with Crowley and Aziraphale's wordplay to describe Aziraphale in this scene: You're a dark horse, Mr. Fell.

Aziraphale as dark (also: d'ark and contains ark, so: of The Ark/The Flood) and Crowley as light (of stars and fire; light in weight; light as truth; lightens burdens and brightens up Aziraphale's world with humor, and so on) are also in the wordplay in 1941, where they are rather adorably inverting their own visuals when flirting with one another:

Aziraphale doesn't just mean he'd miss coffee-the-beverage when he tells Whichever Villain Derek Jacobi Is Playing that he doesn't want to go back to Heaven. Aziraphale is obviously not saying it directly but is thinking about the much more pressing problem:

Where would he get his coffee, ya dig?

Coffee is coffee itself. Coffee is freedom in general, especially the kind that comes from the American-themed Give Me Coffee or Give Me Death. But coffee is also sex-- free, liberated sex, in particular. The choice to live as Aziraphale pleases, for him, is centered around his life on Earth with Crowley and going to Heaven means he would lose that. Coffee is not much different from the use of alcohol in the same way in S1 as Crowley was talking about how Armageddon happening and Aziraphale stuck in Heaven and separated from Crowley and the two of them not having their life on Earth would mean they wouldn't be able to be together:

"Not too big on wine in Heaven, are they? Or single-malt scotch. Or frou frou cocktails with little umbrellas..."

All that then making it funnier that, upon hearing that there's a "not technically" Naked Man Friend in the bookshop, Crowley's literal drink order arrives at the table. Even though Crowley knows that there's some kind of situation happening here that isn't anything worth being jealous over, he's definitely not missing an opportunity to tease Aziraphale a bit over whatever's going on a little.

Turns out that Aziraphale isn't the only one who can make a show of eating and drinking. There's an awful lot of tongue in that big cup...

Connected scene: "A sherry for me, please."

Sherry: A light wine, usually drunk before a meal to stimulate the appetite. Homophone: the French cheri, meaning dear. Aziraphale ordered a Crowley-esque wine to drink it in front of him.

Finally, as if we needed more proof of coffee as figurative language, there's always...

You're both equal parts skinny lattes and large oat milk ones with dashes of almond syrup, ladies, but, yeah, Maggie's your Crowley, Nina. They're both skinny lattes and a whole world of other beverages as well.

You said it, Mags. 😂

[tanadrin]

The Gish Gallop was a term coined I think on the 2000s internet for a rhetorical maneuver where to buttress an argument you provide a ton of low-quality evidence; that the evidence is bad means it should be easy to refute, but the very large volume means it will take much longer to explain why it's all wrong than it did to copy-paste a bunch of links, and to a certain kind of very naive onlooker, it looks like the galloper is winning--after all, the one interlocutor has presented a ton of evidence! The second interlocutor has to spend so much time bending over backwards to refute it! Surely the first guy is more knowledgeable and authoritative. You aren't going to look at all that evidence yourself, of course--who has the time?

But listening to Dan McClellan talk about the Gospel of John this morning, it occurs to me that I don't think this is disingenuous. Not entirely. I think this is just the style of argumentation a lot of Christians (of a particular religious flavor) are used to. And I'm not just talking about in non- or para-religious matters like evolution. This is how Christianity understands the Bible.

This week's Data over Dogma is about the theology of John, and why it is non-trinitarian (because the Trinity is a much later doctrine developed as a kind of political compromise, maintained only because it had state backing) and does not actually identify Jesus with God (the theological developments are more complicated here; but suffice it to say it was not at all a given that "authorized bearer of the divine name" and "actually God" were the same being in 1st century Hellenistic Judaism, and indeed the distinction between the two had developed in Jewish thought precisely to avoid the awkwardness of anthropomorphic figures proclaiming themselves God in some of the older sections of the Hebrew Bible).

The funny thing is, there are a ton of passages in John that get trotted out as proof texts that Jesus is God. There are very good reasons in the case of each one to doubt that that is actually the correct reading; but of course, if you don't know anything about Greek, all you have are modern translations produced under the assumption of the dogma of the Trinity--mostly for devotional readers of the Bible who would be outraged if the Trinity wasn't in the New Testament--and you have been raised in a cultural and/or educational milieu where it is simply a default assumption about the way the world works that the Trinity is a timeless concept that has been in the Bible from the beginning, it sure looks like one side is spinning up tendentious arguments based on silly semantics that have nothing to do with the religion you learned as a kid.

But this exegetical approach (really, eisegetical) is common to many topics in traditional Christian theology. There are a ton of passages from the Septuagint that the Gospels warp to be about Jesus, even though, in their original context, this doesn't make any sense; sometimes even they're based on obvious mistranslations, like having Jesus ride into Jerusalem on the back of two animals simultaneously because you don't understand appositives. And you can poke holes in any individual bit of this exegesis, but psychologically having a ton of low-quality evidence for a thing is a pretty effective bulwark against thinking critically about that evidence; for every individual argument you knock down, the person you are arguing against is probably thinking, "yeah, but what about all that other stuff," even if they can't actually name all that other stuff in the moment.

And it's not mendacious! This is the stuff of true belief; this is how you get breathless Christian commentators saying the Bible couldn't possibly be written by human hands, because it so perfectly predicted Jesus even in the Old Testament--and the evidence they point to is, to anyone not steeped in traditional Christian exegesis, and especially to Jews who have their own exegetical traditions, absolutely barmy. Like really pants-on-head crazy stuff. But of course even now it is still being processed, in many parts of the world, through a two thousand year old tradition trying to reconcile it all and to normalize it all, and--to bring it back to discussions of evolution on the internet in the 2000s--I can't help but think of all those people who talk about the experience of thinking evolution was so obviously nonsense, because all they were exposed to was the fundamentalist strawman of it. When they finally sat down and began to read about it on their own, from unbiased sources--often with the intent of criticizing it--they realized how distorted their understanding was, and how limited their supposed outside view.

(If there are general lessons to be wrung from this situation, I think it's simply "beware of echo chambers." Social consensus in a bubble can make bad arguments feel much stronger than they really are, especially if you are not exposed to the actual opposing view. Be on guard against mistaking "quantity of evidence" for "quality of argument," especially if you're not gonna evaluate that evidence yourself. Also all religious traditions are fundamentally eisegetical, because in order to keep holy writ relevant to the community its meaning has to be constantly renegotiated. So, uh. If you want high-quality exegesis, ask an academic, not a theologian.)

[tsibeyantiger]

I had the inconvenience to read a post where it said that percabeth was a bad ship because they don't seem to LIKE each other and I'm like??????????? How can anybody not get THAT? Like seriously, think about it for just a minute.

Imagine you are Annabeth. Your family pretty much abandoned you. Your newfound sister died so you could make it out alive. When you were just seven years old. It is hard for you to trust anyone because you keep on losing who matters to you. And you know about the prophecy and that you won't leave camp until the kid from the prophecy shows up (if Chiron hasn't said that, I'm sure Annabeth was able to connect the dots). The kid who's gonna die when he turns 16 to save Olympus OR destroy it. So you're NOT supposed to like him, even though you know your pathes will cross. You expect him to be a son of Zeus, which would be fine. You can be his deputy in battle, just as your mom is Zeus', and when he dies, it's gonna be "Farewell, my lord, it was an honour to fight under your command". Not very delightful, but you are used to worse.

Then Percy shows up. And he is a son of POSEIDON. Not at all what you expected, yet it's your destiny to interact somehow with him. What if he turns out evil? What if you're the one who HELPS him destroy Olympus? Okay, no, no, no, stop. You are NOT SUPPOSED to like him AT ALL. But- he is kinda charming. Not the arrogant, wrath filled rowdy you'd expect. A troublemaker, yes, but he's trying to be nice to everyone, always roots for the underdogs, doesn't care about your parents' rivalry and is incredibly skilled yet totally unaware of it. You go on the quest. You safe the world. And you realise he is kind and brave and just and will never turn evil. This is the hero who will die while defending Olympus. And you're the fool who couldn't avoid falling in love with him.

Fast forward. Percy keeps on doing annoyingly cute and noble stuff you wish you never saw because it makes you like him even more. The photo. Tyson (you don't like him, but it IS wholesome that Percy chose to be his friend when no one else was). The moment he gave Clarisse the fleece. Then you get kidnapped and he travels across the whole country to save you, even lifts the sky for you. And then he says he chooses the prophecy and you give up all hope (you've spend hours and hours thinking whether you'd want Thalia to die or Percy, and you feel so guilty for it). He doesn't even know the full meaning, but you are just sure he'd make the same choice if he knew it means death, all to protect a little boy he hardly knows.

And you're like: Fuck this. Too late to run from your feelings. You're already in love. Your heart's gonna be broken anyways. So, you decide to try your luck. If you're gonna miss him for a lifetime, it shall be worth it. And THEN, suddenly, Rachel shows up. Like, this is no average teenage love triangle drama bullshit. OF COURSE, Annabeth explodes like a volcano. Any of us would.

Meanwhile, Percy doesn't know shit and is just hella confused. He doesn't know the content of the prophecy, doesn't know much about Greek mythology and whenever he does, he doesn't care. He just gets the impression that Annabeth hates him, yet somehow seeks his company. Percy has close to zero confidence, due to him also being often abandoned and ending up as a failure and an outsider, so it's probably the second part that's harder to understand, but he tries to make the best of it. He is kind and patient, offers Annabeth his friendship and ultimately, she accepts. Not for a second he'd imagine she might be in love with him, Because This Is Not How People Behave. From his perspective, Annabeth tends to act like a bitch out of nowhere, sometimes she pushes him away, sometimes she wants him to come closer. He accepts this somehow, but of course he gets frustrated sometimes. Who wouldn't?

But still he never even thinks about going low contact. He never questions their friendship, he always wants Annabeth as close as possible. And people say they don't LIKE each other? Please!

[dootznbootz]

Uhh, just a little question? What don't we like about MM's Circe exactly? I haven't read the book yet and all the bad reviews just kinda... Call the book bad- Which I understand ofc, I just wanna know what the exact issue is cause I'm kinda a Greek mythology nerd- and I don't wanna read it if it does my wife girl Circe dirty! 😤 (Nor anyone else for that matter)

So I'm going to preface this by saying I have not read the book. Just snippets. As I know that reading it would be bad for me.

I also love Circe! I love her as her morally gray, Odysseus scaring, "turns people into animal for funsies", potion making self. Andddd that...doesn't match the Circe MM's stuff from what I know :'(

For one thing, it's a very girlbossy "Only women who act a certain way are 'good'." and making it so that every morally gray or "unkind" thing Circe has done was actually because "everybody is so mean to her" 🥺

"Circe didn't turn Odysseus' men into pigs just for funsies, they were trying to rape her and her nymphs. She didn't turn Scylla into a monster outta jealousy, she did it because Glaucus and her were bullying Circe. Everybody is just so so mean to Circe and she girlbosses her way and even stands up to Zeus😤"

like no, she's a goddess and does what she wants. That's what makes her fun and interesting. Why does she need a reason?

Also it just adds rapes and shit that never happened. Why on earth would you want to add that? Especially with Circe, a woman who does not have to go through that in mythology? From what I've heard as well, it's a pretty violent scene. :'(

It makes many of the other gods out to be heartless. Helios and Hermes for example. And Odysseus?? oof :') Like in the Odyssey, she is very much the one with the power, not Odysseus. And Odysseus loves his family more than anything. That's literally the core of his character.

It has her have Telegonus which...yeah. Fuck the Tele-GONE-y. Personally, I think it ruins everyone's character. I personally cannot see Circe as a mother. And especially in the novel, it uh, makes her resent her son. ;~;

Honestly, my biggest warning would be the violence depicted and the angry girlbossing. It butchers many of mythological figures in order to fit into it's own narrative, which to me, ruins a retelling from the start.

[docholligay]

How do I always forget you like Arthuriana? It just doesn't seem like you even though you've posted before

I'm surprised you say it doesn't seem like me! While the King Arthur legend has been around roughly half of forever and so has been molded and changed for many times and ways of thinking (which in itself I find interesting) at core, I think it's about duty and nobility and sacrifice and deeply passionate emotions, both good and bad. And to me that sounds like me! Or at least my interests.

But yeah, you know how everyone talks about "If you ended up gay/neuroatypical/whatever thing that currently means you did anything as a child, were you into Greek mythology or Egyptian Mythology?" Not me! I was the secret third option ahaha. I was obsessed with King Arthur, and to a lesser extent anything that involved pledges of troth and a sword--The Three Musketeers was one of the defining movies of my childhood.

But from the first time I saw The Sword in the Stone as a small child*, I was like, "Oh this fucks absolutely" (but in small rural child) and by the time I was, oh, maybe 9? The librarian got me The Once and Future King, and it was off to the fucking RACES. I read everything I could get my hands on, even stuff that was too advanced to yet click with me in any real way even if I could physically read it. I have a firm memory of reading Sutliff's Tristan and Iseult while sitting on a rock in the middle of the woods, eating a sandwich.

Sidenote to the other ask, about The Dark is Rising: I read it because I was once a child?? aahaha, I don't mean to be a jackass, but yeah, i read kids' things when i was a kid, even if I was reading it alongside adult stuff. I actually loved the Dark is Rising series so much I refuse to reread it.

What can i say? I came to my teaboo stage early and left it by the time I was a teenager.

I still like it! It's not quite the all-encompassing thing it was when I was a kid, but Arthurian shit is still heavy on my mind, it's just that it's not as easy to find stuff that is both Arthurian and engaging on the level I want to. That's why I lost my mind for The Green Knight, and also The Buried Giant, which, like a couple books I read at the end of the year, I liked so much i struggle to write a review of them. I need to get over that, it's insane.

When the little woman and I went to the UK, I considered doing a whole Cornwall and Wales King Arthur thing, but then I was like, "Well, will BEING there do anything for me, or is it this IDEA I have of Arthur that I love, which is obviously like, Avalon as fuck, but is a castle ruin going to EVOKE that for me?" and then anyway Jill wanted to see Scotland which settled that matter.

But! We've talked about saving up to take beeb on a vacation for her interests and I would love it if she somehow mysteriously ended up being a King Arthur kid so I could take that trip "for the baby" and thus justify it to myself.

SO YES I DO LIKE ARTHURIANA HOWEVER IT FITS YOUR VIEW OF ME

*I actually still have the opener to this memorized, which I did not realize until beeb was asking me to sing her a song while we were driving somewhere. It's not like it is a complicated bit, but surprising to both realize and have come to mind, more than 30 fucking years later.

[sunny6677]

Just for my version of Tiresias' backstory, I figured I'd say this—

I did want to make Tiresias a little more sympathetic since I want it to at least be understandable as to why Hermes pities him and is protective of him. So this is why he has a little more understandable reasons in my version of his backstory—and also why he suffers a little more due to all his myths being combined in my version of his backstory and shit. My version of Tiresias has a main theme, which is both tragedy and misunderstanding—most of the God's who hurt him misunderstood why he did certain things and attacked him due to not getting things, making things all the more tragic. For example, about him being blinded by Hera or struck blind by her—I was thinking maybe he doesn't even actually agree with Zeus. He just sides with Zeus because he fears what the King of the God's may end up doing to him if he dares to disagree. He thinks Hera might forgive him due to her changing him back previously when he didn't bonk the two snakes he came across no matter how much in the way they both were. However, he's deathly wrong because Hera was already dealing with enough and has a sharp temper due to Zeus' way of acting, so in a blind (ha) rage—she strikes Tiresias blind and flees. Zeus likely isn't even aware that Tiresias doesn't agree with him, but still pities him a little because of how absolutely miserable he seems—or he is aware that Tiresias doesn't actually agree, but feels bad anyway. So he gives him both a longer lifespan and the ability of prophecy since one can't cure blindness if caused by the Divine. Even another God can't cure blindness if a Divine Being inflicted it.

I was also thinking of adding themes of misunderstanding and tragedy to other stuff in Tiresias' story too. Like Athena doesn't understand that Tiresias didn't see what he saw on purpose at first, until it's a little too late. Fortunately, it was a nymph she brought with her who blinded Tiresias, so she can easily just cure Tiresias' blindness. At least, she can try. She's only able to do so partially since even if a Nymph isn't technically a being of the Divine, they still have power. But she's at least able to get some of his eye sight back.

Meanwhile, with the Gods.. ehh, there wasn't exactly a misunderstanding?? Kinda anyway?? Tiresias DID share the secrets from Olympus with mankind, but in this slightly rewritten version, he was captured and forced to say what he knew by some random Greek Hero who was being guided by Apollo as well. Tiresias only said what he said to avoid further torment, and ended up being struck blind right then by some of the God's. He tearfully went to Apollo right afterward, and started to beg and apologize over and over because of how much it hurt. Apollo wasn't going to listen again first, but Tiresias' cries were so pitiful that both Apollo and some of the other God's (Zeus, Hera, Ares, Hephaestus, maybe even Aphrodite—but some of them like her didn't really have a choice since Zeus and Apollo were mainly leading the decision, etc etc) felt bad and unblinded him, but on the condition he'd swear to never share secrets from the Divine again. They were able to unblind him since they got a Nymph in disguise to blind him in their stead, so they may not have technically blinded him? But they were in charge of the decision.

I can go more in depth if you'd like about the slightly updated version of his backstory—but I do generally want Tiresias to be more sympathetic so certain scenes in Snakes (the comic I'm drawing) are more understandable. And because Hermes does love him, and Snakes IS intended to be from Hermes' POV, so Tiresias would likely be seen as more sympathetic either way.

[what-even-is-thiss]

Hey do you have any literature recommendations for people who want to broaden their knowledge on the classics and Greek/Roman myths without taking university courses?

So like for people (such as myself) who have read Bullfinch's Myths of Greece and Rome and Edith Hamilton's Mythology: Timeless Tales of Gods and Heroes but want to deepen their knowledge and maybe go to intermediate level type stuff. Or whatever the level above the mentioned literature is.

Well those two books are quite old and skip over quite a few things. Both are very important to our culture, historically, but I'd recommend reading through some more modern popular retellings like Stephen Fry's Mythos series if you're looking for pure entertainment and a dummy's guide to Greek myths.

The Penguin Dictionary of Classical Mythology is a useful reference book if you have difficulty keeping track of all these names and whatnot. It's just a reference book but you know. Having a reference book handy is quite useful. I personally prefer reference books when it comes to checking stuff when I'm doing mythology things anyways. They're generally more organized than the internet.

If you're looking for entertaining retellings of less popular myths, I'd actually recommend going to videos and podcasts for that. YouTubers like MonarchsFactory, Overly Sarcastic Productions, Jake Doubleyoo, and Mythology & Fiction Explained are all people who do a lot of research themselves on the myths they retell and I would recommend all of them to basically anybody. As far as podcasts go, Mythology & Fiction Explained has a podcast version and Let's Talk About Myths, Baby! is a very informative podcast that talks about sources for the myths and has interviews with experts on the subjects. It's also a podcast that is specifically Greco-Roman based.

As far as doing slightly more in-depth research, I cannot recommend theoi.com enough. I really can't. It has overviews of the most common myths, it has pages about god and hero cults, it cites it's sources and has an online library of translated texts. It's just really good. Go clicking around it for a while. It's a lot of fun if you're into that sort of thing.

As far as primary sources for myths go, there's a few places you could start. The Iliad, perhaps. The most recent English translation is by Caroline Alexander but I personally prefer Stanley Lombardo's translation. The Odyssey is a more accessible read in my opinion if you're not used to reading epic poetry. Emily Wilson's translation is especially accessible, written in iambic pentameter and generally replicating Homer's simple conversational language.

The third traditional entrance into the epic cycle of the surviving literature is the Aeneid. The newest translation of that is by Shadi Bartsch, which is pretty good, but it reads more like prose than poetry. Would still highly recommend it though. Robert Fitzgerald's translation is also good.

If you wanna get fancy you can read the Post-Homerica which attempts to bridge the gap between the Iliad and the Odyssey. It's not often read but it's one of the latest pagan sources we have from people who still practiced ancient Greek religion.

If you want a collection of short stories from ancient times, Ovid's your guy. Metamorphosis is specifically Roman and specifically Ovid's fanfiction, but it's also a valid primary resource and Ovid generally views women as people. What a concept!

Though I think the absolute best overview from ancient times itself is The Library aka Biblioteca by pseudo-apollodorus. Doesn't matter what translation you get. The prose is simple to the point where it's difficult to screw it up. Not artistic at all. It is, quite simply, a guy from ancient times trying to write down the mythological history of the world as he knew it. It has a bunch of summaries of myths in it, and most modern printings also have a table of contents so you can essentially use it as a reference book or a cheat sheet. I love it.

The Homeric Hymns weren't actually written by Homer but that's what they're called anyways. They're a lovely bit of poetry because, well, they were originally hymns. They've got some of the earliest full tellings of the Hades and Persephone story and the birth of Hermes in them. They also provide an insight into how ancient people who were most devoted to these gods viewed them. Go read the Homeric Hymns. They're lovely. You can buy the Michael Crudden translation or you can read a public domain translation online. I don't care. Just read them.

If you're into tedious lists, the next place I'd recommend you go after you read all the fun stuff is Hesiod's Theogony. Hesiod, the red pill douchebag of the ancient world, decided he was gonna write down the genealogy of all the Greek gods. That means lists. I'm not exaggerating. Be prepared for a lot of lists. But this work also has the earliest and one of the most complete versions of the story of Pandora, the creation of humans, and the most popular version of the Greek creation myth. So, it's very useful. If you can take all the lists.

The Argonautica aka the voyage of the argo by Apollonius of Rhodes, is also here. That is also a thing you can read. About the golden fleece and whatnot. And Jason. You know Jason. We all hate Jason.

Greek theatre also provides a good overview of specific myths. The three theben plays, Medea, the Bacche, etc. We've only got thirty-something surviving plays in their entirety so like... look up the list. Find one that looks interesting. Read it. Find a performance of it online, maybe. They're good.

If you want to dive into the mythology as a religion that was practiced, Greek Religion by Walter Burkurt and Ancient Greek Cults: A Guide by Jennifer Larson are pretty good books on the topic and often used as textbooks in college courses.

If you wanna get meta and get a feel for what the general public today thinks about Greek myths and what the average person that's sort of knowledgeable about Greek myths knows, the books you already mentioned are good. That's what people usually read. In addition to those, most people's intro to Greek myths generally involves The Complete World of Greek Mythology by Richard Buxton, D’Aulaires’ Book of Greek Myths by Ingri and Edgar Parin d’Aulaire, or The Percy Jackson series.

I've been flipping through the big stacks of mythology books I keep on my table trying to remember if I've forgotten anything but I don't think I have so, yeah. Hope this helps. There's no correct starting point here. Once you get started there's a nearly endless void of complications and scholarship you can fall down that you'll never reach the bottom of. This post is basically just a guide to the tip of the iceberg.

[umbran6]

The Roasting of the Deadbeat

I know I've posted this before, but I felt like this should be repeated since its... Father's Day. Or maybe its already past Father's Day if you're reading this post on some other part of the world. My least favorite holiday each year, second only to Columbus Day (I formally recognize Native American Day, TYVM). But I feel like I must say this, otherwise we forget that these people deserve this.

SCREW YOU HEPHAESTUS. Yes, I'm focusing on him, not Zeus.

Leo has every right to hate this bastard and if he could, spit on his throne. This hermit of a god abandoned Leo for nearly sixteen years, apparently too obsessed in either making stuff or screwing other people to even care about his son. Hephaestus isn't there to comfort Leo when his mother died, much less intervene in the actual matter when he, as god of the forge and flame, had every capability to do so.

The god doesn't even have the willingness to confess that he badly messed up with Leo, favoring his other children who get to Camp Half-Blood — his many, many children that ranged from either 18 (Charles freaking Beckendorf) to young Harley who was 8 years old. They get there young, they get there to stay for several years or months, and they get the training and knowledge to understand the world they truly live in.

Leo is extremely high up in that age range, at 16 years old when most demigods are brought to camp by age 12. Leo is apparently blessed with extremely rare fire powers not seen for several centuries, yet its a kid like Harley who is young to the point his demigod powers shouldn't even have manifested that gets the special treatment. When Medea looked into the future, she saw Leo as such a big threat to the Primordial Mother that Gaea herself made a personal visit at an attempt to psychologically break Leo when he was eight years old. Eight years old, the same age Harley is during The Lost Hero, yet Hephaestus does nothing as Leo's life falls apart around him.

HERA has a stronger relationship with Leo because she was actually there to help raise the kid. When the mother that tossed you off of Mount Olympus, the goddess that cursed each and every child of Zeus that was ever born (as far as we know of) is treating your child in a better way than you are, there is something wrong with you, you emotionally stunted goblin of a god.

ZEUS cared more about his children in his own warped way despite being an abusive bastard `and practically rival to Hephaestus in being a deadbeat. When Thalia was about to be killed by monsters Hades unleashed upon her, because, you know, Zeus broke a pact on the River Styx by sticking his dick in Beryl Grace (twice!), he at least had the decency to turn her into a tree so that she didn't die. It was severely implied in The Demigod Diaries that Zeus led her to find Luke and Annabeth. In Percy Jackson's Greek Gods its shown that he at least had an overprotective side to Athena and spoiled Artemis and satisfied several of her demands. Now I'm not excusing Zeus' own abuse towards his other children like Apollo and Ares. Zeus gave crumbs, you didn't even have the decency to give Leo anything at all.

HERMES, who screwed the pooch with Luke twice over, tried to do his best with him or by him. When Luke searched for a quest to prove his worth to the gods, Hermes offered it only unfortunately for the quest to end in failure. He left Luke in the care of his mentally unstable mother. Yet Hermes recognized the fact that he severely fucked up and tried to make amends, even apparently forgiving Luke despite the fact that he came inches to toppling Olympus. Hermes was willing to try to make amends and honored his son's wishes by helping Percy find the rest of his demigod children that were unclaimed. Hermes accepted that he had a hand for Luke's hatred towards Olympus and the he wronged Luke, Hephaestus has so far done zilch.

HADES did his best to protect Nico and Bianca when Zeus tried to kill them all, hiding them in the Lotus Hotel and Casino. When Marie Levesque was going to bring Hazel to Alaska, he tried to intervene and stop them from doing so because he knows Gaea was manipulating her and backed off at her wishes. When Nico is going through severe emotional turmoil during Blood of Olympus, he goes out of his way despite the Greco-Roman schizophrenia to help guide and comfort his son.

Hephaestus didn't even get Leo to Camp Half-Blood directly. Coach Hedge found Leo completely by accident. If it weren't for Hera literally rigging things so that Jason, Piper, and Leo were picked up at the Grand Canyon Skywalk, Leo would never have known that his life was screwed over by higher powers than him. His first direct interaction with Leo isn't even to give a sincere apology about the fact that he's been the shittiest deadbeat in millennia, its about to info-dump about the Giants. When Leo calls him out about this, Hephaestus doesn't even apologize for that and sweeps it under the rug and never speaks with Leo again.

So screw you Hephaestus. Decent fathers should be worth honoring, respecting at the very least. He deserves nothing, and should get nothing. His mother, who threw him off of Olympus, has a better relationship with his own son than he does. The rest of his fellow Olympians, even his shitbag of an adoptive father, have done better than him. He can do better, and he should be doing better. Hephaestus, the victim of abusive, neglectful parenting and parental favoritism should know the pitfalls of this and how to avoid them. Yet you're the divine equivalent of starting the cycle all over again, and it shows.

Let me finish on this note for you:

He is a god who is dedicated to forging inventions and fixing that which is broken. Yet for everything he has learned, he does not have the capability of fixing the bonds that he broke by his own hand.

[gracefireheart]

Fuck it, I'm making HCs for Medic's doves, because I feel like every single one of them would be a lil' shit [affectionate] in different ways.

(Also, I just wanted to make some small reference pics of them for future drawings)

First of all; I decided that Medic has eight birds in total. Mostly 'cause I couldn't think of anymore than eight different traits, and also 'cause I thought it would be cute that he has eight doves and eight humans he [has to] takes care of.

Second of all; I did some quick design of each of them (basically just use a base dove drawing and then add shit to it) and then assigned each of them names based off of ancient greek scientists (like Archimedes). The order will be from oldest to youngest dove.

Aristotle - Many of the mercs (which even includes Medic at times) sometimes think that this old dove is dead due to them never blinking and always standing stock-still. Medic can't count how many times one of his colleagues came with said dove in their hands and a distressed look on their face, only to find out that the dove is indeed alive.

Herophilos - Often goes out of their way to find bones to either peck on, or to use in their nest in replacement of sticks.

Euclid - The sleepiest of the bunch that can either be found resting on Medic's head, or in the strangest places (such as a fridge, one of the machines, inside the walls, and so on).

Aristarchus - They often pick fights with not only their dove siblings, but also with Soldier's raccoons (the former of which they tend to win, the latter of which they tend to lose).

Erasistratus - Sometimes, a few of Spy's knives and Medic's surgical tools goes missing because of this dove that loves stealing those shiny items of theirs.

Archimedes - You know 'em, you love 'em. It's the dove that can't get enough of blood, guts and gore.

Apollonius - Not wanting anyone to go starving, they will go and steal some food from the other mercs to make sure their dove siblings, Medic, and some of the dead bodies outside are fed. (Btw, yes, their right eye is missing)

Hipparchus - Quite the attention seeker out of the bunch as they will scream into the ear of whoever they want some attention from. Doesn't matter if said person is asleep/unconscious or dead.

Other lil' HCs I have for them is just stuff like:

Herophilos and Erasistratus are more often than not sticking together, while Herophilos and Aristotle absolutely despise eachother. Aristotle and Erasistratus are chill with eachother tho'.

Euclid, Archimedes, Apollonius and Hipparchus tend to be with eachother, tho' the latter three has to keep an eye on Euclid to make sure they know where the fuck that dove will fall asleep.

Aristarchus and Hipparchus also often tend to stick together, especially if the former is about to have a go against one of the raccoons.

Each of them have a different merc they tend to gravitate towards (besides their bird dad Medic). Archimedes ofc loves accompanying Heavy, Aristotle will sometimes be with Pyro, Herophilos may stay near Sniper, Euclid can be often found in Engineer's workshop, Aristarchus tend to bother Scout here and there, Erasistratus enjoys Spy's company (and knives), Apollonius will sometimes check on Demoman to make sure he's not hungry either, and Hipparchus likes being with Soldier and trying to be louder than him.

"Which one of the doves are male or female?" The answer: Who knows? :)