#in a relationship and you dont always need a relationship to realize youre queer

[thebigqueer]

unrelated to that rb but im thinking about it and i dont think piper liking jason was ever a forced heteronormativity thing i think she genuinely liked him

[prototypesteve]

hi! I just came across your acc and read some of your posts and you seem a really inspiring individual. im a 18yo demisexual person who's really close to their queerness (both in the sexuality and gender aspects) as its a fundamental part of my individuality. and i dunno, both my being acespec and genderqueer are a tricky... thing to get into when i want to get into relationships. im trying to be happy by myself. and this was very random and all, but as you're an adult aroace (i see very very few of them) its inspiring to me knowing I can still have a good, normal life? while living in full authenticity. idk. sorry if this is random. you dont have to reply. your account was nice to come across. have a wonderful day

Thank you for this. This is why I’m here. Honestly this is most of why I came out. Seriously.

Being Different and “New”.

The world is catching up with you, so you’ll have to be patient sometimes. Language often outpaces feelings. People know how to address genderqueer (they know all the words) but they’re still learning how to process genderqueer (they’re deconstructing all the old gender “archetypes” and stereotypes they were taught by parents and teachers who didn’t address or process genderqueer in their day). They will figure it out, because they can see it’s real. But it’s frustrating, in the meantime.

Even our own community of LGBTQIA+ (in Canada we use 2SLGBTQIA+, leading with 2S for two-spirit) is catching up with us in a lot of ways. The queer community has largely thought of queer as for/about genderqueer, and so when they see aros and aces and demisexuals and demiromantics, they have to either accept or reject that there’s a whole other layer of queer called relationship queer who intersect and overlap with genderqueer inside the bigger (and for some “newly bigger”) queer category/world/thing.

Being alone.

Alone is a complicated word for us. Aspec people experience a few kinds of alone-ness. There’s completion, which allos sometimes don’t get. We’re complete inasmuch as aspec people don’t have as many spaces in their lives where they need an “other half,” even though many of us spend a lot of our lives being told we have that space and we need to fill it. I wrote about that, here.

Then there’s the way we can can feel isolated from the bigger queer world because of the ways some people refuse to accept asexuality and aromanticism as queer, because they see it as a cishet thing, somehow.

We can feel isolated from traditional communities built around faith, politics, ethnicity, national identity, or even generational identity (GenX was wiiiiildly amatonormative), all because our defining differences are falsely interpreted as “new”. People misread our orientation as a phase, or a “made up internet thing” even though we’ve always been here. For ages, the world didn’t want to talk about all the asexual, aromantic, demisexual, and demiromantic people they could see everywhere—unlabelled, but plain as day—and now that we want to talk about ourselves, they’re going to say “you’re making that up”.

Then there’s the alone-ness of trying to explain how we do love, but differently. That one’s hard. I think that’s the one I’m going through the most, this year.

“See Also”:

Anyway, here’s a poorly-sorted and always growing “library” of links to my most popular social media posts, and stuff I’ve learned as an older ace. The recurring theme is that it really is going to be okay.

I’m still me, but now I know why. (How I explain my “thing” to straight friends who knew me from before I came out.)

Phase (You don’t outgrow it. I’m proof.)

Complete (Our complex relationship with “Alone”)

1994 (The counsellor story)

When I realized (Slow origin story)

Lifeline (Something bad happened to me when I was young, and believe it or not, Spider-Man rescued me.)

Recipe for Disaster (When life happens BEFORE you figure out your orientations)

Sexual Induction rather than a sexual awakening. (Things won’t always follow the romance novel playbook.)

Complicated. (Being queer AND Christian.)

Din Djarin Aroace Rep (We love. We just mostly do all the other kinds of love)

Treasure (a note to my trans friends)

Happy Ace Week (yes we’re here)

Masked (About not being out to everyone)

Negotiating (About gaining “acceptance” from the bigger queer community.

[sassykinzonline]

what’s your opinion on people who say sns is platonic? like i’ll see well done essays about sns and how they changed each other for the better and their love. then… theyll say its platonic.

is it just blissful ignorance or? 😭

oh wow this is a really good question, thank you.

um hm, i never really want to totally shit on anyone's interpretation of anything so long as its accurate to the information thats presented so im not really against any interpretation thats well-defended. i havent read the kind of opinion youre talking about so i cant really say anything more specific than that.

what i will say though is that i think sometimes some snsers get caught up in "fighting homophobia" that they kind of miss the essence of naruto and i's specific relationship: that we are every type of attraction and every kind of love. its obvious in the manga's arts, the different parallels, the words we use to describe each other, the progression of our relationship, the intimacy we share with each other, i could go on and on.

so, do i think our relationship is presented in a way thats exclusively platonic? nope and the only way you could come to that conclusion is either a) homophobia or b) genuinely not being able to grasp the storytelling elements in the manga (ie. you dont necessarily need to be able to understand or feel romantic/sexual attraction to see that the manga shows you it exists between us explicitly). the anime is a bit...worse but i still feel like most people have seen the anime ONLY and still feel discomfort because they cant figure out if we're gay or not, and ive never heard of another shonen anime with a problem that big.

however, the platonic element is a huge and important part of our relationship. there was no one among our "friends" that could truly understand, sympathize, or care for us. but at the same time, that wasnt enough. there's the familial element too, in the sense that we wanted the safety that we knew a family should make you feel. we knew the "family" we had (iruka and itachi) were broken. there's a professional side to it too, where our profession is so intimately tied to our sense of self that thats how we communicate our feelings to each other. there's a romantic element yes, the feeling of completion and feeling that someone is "for you". there's even a sexual/aesthetic element, where just the appearance of someone overwhelms your senses and consumes your body. i would also look at the relationships you have with other people and ask if they dont include different kinds of love/attraction despite mainly being one thing.

ultimately though, i think that the way the narrative is presented (and the way i feel), the point is meant to be that we have all those different types of love except because of our context (familial, political, social, whatever) its difficult to realize the romance that we both desperately wanted from the other. the manga presents the double suicide proposal as romantic, and thats the climax of the story. so the relationship should be looked at as a romantic one. at the same time though, if people feel like "well just because the manga says its a romantic relationship doesnt mean this is inherently romantic, theyre exclusive queer platonic soulmates that kiss and bone" or something then i think thats fine too. so long as they understand that naruto and i will always come before anyone else to each other, and that whatever we feel for the other is not only mutual but mutually desired and all encompassing.

[castlebyersafterdark]

I find the way they both interact with the concept of byler to be very interesting,sometimes eye brow raising, and even complicated in Noah’s case since he said playing Will essentially made him realize/accept (however he framed it) his own sexuality…

Wholeheartedly agree with vinny's response here as the mature and practical way to look at the strange vocation of acting. Its a very strange mix of professional AND personal - and this, i think, is what creates tension in the is RPF morally acceptable? debate. because if we're talking literal speculation about whether two people have the hots for each other... name a less groundbreaking pastime lmao. imagine the saucy gossip that would have been spreading through the roman baths in like... 78 BC lol. human love and connection have ALWAYS interested people.

but for some reason there is disapproval about discussing chemistry and potential attraction when it comes to actors who also portray fictional characters. you don't see frowns when people pair actors together in regular celeb gossip columns; it's only through the lens of 'fandom shipping', where fictional blends with real, that it gets hate. perhapss most see it as an extrapolation with no grounds, a crossing of boundaries? but for me, its a question of your emotional intelligence as an audience member: can you separate fiction from reality in a mature way while also acknowledging that you see something sparkling in the reality? it's not NOT possible. but are you being honest with yourself about the origin of the chemistry? for me, noah and finn have it in spades, and i dont need them to officially start a relationship to prove it, because that, for me, is not the only sign of two people having true feelings for each other.

and even though professionalism should be top priority on a film set - on s5 of ST - let's not discount the fact that actors are human first and foremost, and not only that, but creatives, storytellers, performers, who are most likely more sensitive and emotionally affected than most 'regular' non-creative folk. sure, noah and finn started acting as kids, so perhaps they're not passionate about the craft like someone who chose the career later in life might be. but in a way, that's MORE telling? because their authentic selves would have been spilling out accidentally on red carpets and in interviews as they grew, no matter how much media training they had. there are unique circumstances that mirror their real lives and the show; growing up together, noah's queerness. it's not like two middle aged actors who barely know each other, portraying a totally fictive romance where their chemistry is the only similarity.

anyway, no amount of professionalism is going to prevent real feelings potentially arising. having feelings is not unprofessional; it's about how you deal with those feelings. and their behaviour is very, very interesting.

Noah is very intense, and candid about his intensity, especially re: byler. I think his tweets are certainly marketing in some ways, but you can't deny that he's not exactly, to put it bluntly... cool about it haha! He's not a nerd like finn is a nerd, but he's not cool and collected, you know? He is clearly comfortable having a public image (whether fabricated or not) of being someone who wears his heart on his sleeve. He and his team have clearly chosen to go down the route of: 'this actor is a bubbly young man who has no filter'. Even without the many times he's accidentally spoiled the show (lmao), it seems to me like Noah's passion IS authentic precisely BECAUSE being a young male actor these days often IS about being too cool for school, and Noah exhibits many traits that do not fit our society's idea of a cool young guy.

He's clumsy. He says things that could be seen as cringe. He is passionate and open. He admits to crying a lot. He makes tiktok lives naked shirtless from his bed. He gushes about Harry Styles. He does silly dances on social media. He gushes about byler. None of these things are objectively uncool - that's not a thing - and tiktok dances are popular, sure, but it's the WAY he does them. If he and his team wanted to craft a different persona that might have launched him into higher echelons of the A-List cool list, they could have. But I personally love how authentic noah feels. He is living life for himself, going to college, speaking honestly, being totally real. I respect that a lot.

And I think Finn does too, even though they might have clashed as younger teens, because he speaks highly of noah's coming out especially, and Finn also lives life for himself. My eyebrows have raised many many times seeing how Noah handles byler, and quite honestly, I wonder if Finn was/is more than a little intimidated playing opposite this rambunctious, passionate guy who is most likely going to kiss him within an inch of his life when they finally get to the s5 byler scenes lmao.

Then we have Mr Wolfhard. Finn, Finn, Finn. This year during filming, he seems... calm. Happy, glowing. My instincts tell me that he's, at the very least, enjoying this season and getting artistic satiation from it, whether that's reuniting a final time with the gang, pure nostalgia, gratitude, or enjoying filming byler. Probably all of the above. Viewing his behaviour through the lens of his disgruntlement with mileven in prior seasons' press, however, is hilarious - because whereas at one time it could have seemed like he was a teen boy who was embarrassed to talk romance, it's now looking more and more Mike Wheeler-esque. He was a young guy who was sick to death of hearing 'mileven mileven mileven' non-stop, perhaps without really knowing why. Honestly, if Finn's life ends up echoing Mike's in the way Noah's has with Will's, it'd be so coincidental that it's almost ludicrous, yet so so beautiful; and no wonder they'd both be reeling from it for a very long time. We're only just in the midst of filming - perhaps the most telling events have yet to come?

I will agree that Finn's s4 interviews were very telling re: whether byler will happen - the giggling, as you mentioned, because eyes and smiles don't lie, even on actors when they're off the clock. Finn's responses, if will's romance storyline was going to be tragic, were nonsensical. As for a kiss, I think they have already filmed one. If not, their giggles were certainly anticipatory, and there's definitely a similarity between finn's gigglyness and noah's glee at byler, isn't there? Whether that's thrill at good storytelling, or a hint to Finn's queerness, or both... you decide! Because being passionate about a story is one thing, but being reduced to self-conscious giggles, especially at age 19 or so? When portraying a romance at a younger age did NOT make you giggly during press...??? Very interesting.

For me, it's the other aspects of Finn's personality that prevent people from seeing foah as a possibility. Finn is too cool for school, reserved and private. Half of his press responses to byler HAVE mirrored his one's for mileven - 'why would I ship my own show?' etc. But there's that cheeky other half of the time, where he giggles or looks discreetly right down the camera, as if he's trying to silently tell us something. Even if he just adores byler, I find that very endearing.

And let's not forget that they're both totally adorable. At the very least I expect s5 press where they respond to questions portraying this romance. Noah laughing and saying "I wasn't exactly complaining" on Jimmy Fallon or something. "I mean, look at him" as Finn points to a magazine cover with Noah splashed on the front for s5 promo.

Lastly, noah's storyline/real life convergence is impactful. There's no way that this isn't something that influences the rest of his life. And, seeing as he was a teenager growing up with Will, I can't see how he could have entirely separated finn from mike, will's love from his own feelings, whether they were an actual crush, or simply the love and trust that comes from a genuine transformative friendship. The crazy thing is that noah has admitted in interviews that he looks at finn and sees Mike - so, with regard to what I said about about noah having no filter, take that as you will. If this is what he is saying publicly, what on earth is going on inside that head of his?

They are both endlessly fascinating and for me, this doesn't simply feel like RPF but studying the human condition, love and connection itself. Ha! I have nothing but love and respect for the two of them, so I dont feel like my 'shipping' is a bad thing. I think vinny would agree, being the romantic sap he is <3

Posting this one because this says it all, what a thorough read and reflection on these two. Thank you for sharing, I have very little to add, right on right on. So I'll let this one stand alone as a good read!! ❤️❤️❤️

[joifee]

Alr, I've been thinking again about my Flower Husbands reicarnation (?) idea.

Scott has been always a flirty person, but especially with Jimmy, he's fun to tease. But like, I imagine that S1 Scott when he gets his memories in S2, he like kind of, isn't himself anymore towards Jimmy. His flirts wouldn't be just teasing anymore but genuine and kind of soft and sweet flirting, basically appreciation towards the guy.

But Jimmy obviously would be suspicious as heck. No one in Empires actually appreciates him, so he would be so suspicious of Scott and try to like to push him away. Especially since for him, it all came out of nowhere. Tho at the same time, he would be desperate for allies, and want his attention bc he lacks it.

At the same time, Scott definitely would give off like faraway feeling, or when he looks at Jimmy like he was a dead man (for Scott he is, but he obv wouldn't know that). I just imagine Jimmy thinking that Scott looks lonely and the both of them would just feel awkward around each other as well bc there's just something unsaid from Scotts side.

I also was thinking that Sausage might realize the fact that S1 and S2 Scott are now the same person, but I heavily doubt Scott would want any help from the guy. S1 Scott obv didn't have a good relationship with him in his own timeline. So I kinda think that Scott would be VERY wary of the guy. Especially when he notices that Sausage also teasing Jimmy with the toy joke. Kinda like a "history repeats itself" kinda vibe. Scott would feel that way at least.

Since it is also heavily implied that Fwhip and Jimmy we're in some kind of queer relationship (for example Jimmy calling Fwhip his ex), I feel like Scott would start to rethink some of the past events as well. Fwhip in S1 really did a lot of mischief, especially directed toward Jimmy, which feels like he just wanted the guy attention.

Also, I didn't answer before, but you are always welcome to come to my asks and talk about your drafts or headcanons! Anything tbf. I love hearing other people's ideas!

sorry for late reply! omg yes its like an immediate switch from teasing to genuine and nice and jimmy is just confused af and definitly convinced scott is planning something mischievous or is out for trouble. like he is smitten by the compliments, yes, but will take them with a grain of salt. but then he also, like you said, is in need of allies so he cannot really say no despite being suspicious fareaway like in it feels like home but also like a growing distance when he looks at jimmy. like in a way he knows its just what he wants but also fearing it at the same time. and jimmy knows something is on scotts mind but he doesnt know how to ask or if he asks, if he is able to believe it due to his suspicions but then in this season i have the feeling they get along better? i mean sausage grew since then like he did become a better man than the king of mythland. so maybe scott is not really about talking to him at first, but the more time goes on the more he is compelled to talk with sausage about it but doesnt really know how to reveal that he can remember his past life even tho sausage might already know he does. but i dont see sausage as the guy to like push scott to talk to him. maybe that fact of them being exes makes scott also a bit unsure if he should pursue it more. Like thats different from the jimmy he knew. maybe its like still the same fwhip but then he didnt knew fwhip in his past life that well after they had the fallout due to scott accidently freezing gem. i might shoot you an ask then soon^^

[faorism]

why does it seem like every tv character with an established shitty relationship with a parent (whether abusive or otherwise) has to reconcile with them lol i hate it so much

[context: this post on billy and eliot]

i have no fucking idea, other than that lev:red found ways to insist on your current (queer) found family is not enough to soothe one's soul. there is no true going forward, if you havent gone backward in order to fix something that we didnt see as broken; instead, it was a complexity that humbly fades into the background of the cool characters we love to untangle in our own projections.

reconciliation is not always the answer. the pressure to reconcile (and specifically to do so before i was ready) did irreparable damage. sometimes things happen where we came from, but we find our people. it is not a wish fulfillment fantasy i feel is necessary for leverage. archies first episode ended with difficult parent relationship done right: parker, realizing archie is not who she wanted him to be but settling into the fact that she has family now. real family. they backtracked in the last dam job, sadly.

billys wife, eliots mom, the REASON billy gave up on eliot due to the funeral absence.... she didnt warrant a first name.

they also did the billy&eliot from the other side with sophie and her first crew, but especially sophie with her stepdaughter. sophie didn't need to have a mothering role thrown on her after six seasons without it being mentioned or hinted at. (dont you think that when nate was grieving once against over sam, sophie might have mentioned ANYTHING about being a parent??). sophie suddenly became a Bad Mother that we had to just accept haunted her. and then astrid (A FUCKING SUPER COP, UGH ACAB, HATE THAT LEVERAGE LOVES COPS SO MUCH) had to just.... reconcile with the woman who broke her father's heart, broke her heart, and is still working with the tools that helped deceive her father.

is that was redemption is to lev:red? tracing back the supposed "core" of you (bio/in-law family) so you can confess your wrongs and get a stern pat on the back? maybe nate is there as a ghost but as the earlier version where he was a priest, cuz this is all sounding mighty catholic to me......

[diamondcitydarlin]

man the replies on that last post I reblogged are just evidence pieces of how the term 'p*dophilia' has just become a dogwhistle/buzzword some people like to use on anyone either 1) not also joining into/endorsing their violent hivemind cult of bullying people on the internet 2) anyone telling them to stop. I don't think they realize this is a play right out of the conservative playbook (that has often been used against queer people no less): call anyone disagreeing with your fascist policies a predator or p*do to immediately shut down them and their arguments.

Literally, that post said: "Stop bullying people for fictional situations they may create or enjoy"

And then these people said: "STOP BEING A P*DO!!! YOU'RE SUCH A PREDATOR!!! I DON'T DEFEND PREDATORS!!"

Like...what?? That post said nothing about specific fictional situations with minors!! Why are y'all always jumping to that conclusion?? Does that not seem a bit WEIRDER to you, that you're ALWAYS thinking about that?? That you're ALWAYS assuming this is what people are talking about??? I don't wanna say 'PROJECTION' so I won't, but honestly it makes them look all the more suspicious to me if I'm honest, esp as someone who was a victim of that as a child. Just saying.

It gets even more hilarious/weird when you've seen these people in action in fandom and know by 'p*dophilia' they usually mean either a) a fictional age gap relationship with two consenting adults or b) a ship that involves two adult characters, one of whom they ship with someone else and want to invalidate the pairing or sometimes c) a character that is an adult that they've hc'd as 'minor coded' whatever the fuck that means, so now everyone has to share that view and behave accordingly.

But idk man, it's just so fucking weird when people on here say, 'Leave people alone to enjoy their own fictional situations' and then these kinda people immediately jump to assuming they're talking about fictional p*dophilic situations, which I'd say 99.9% of the time is not even what they're talking about. They're PROBABLY talking about the thousands of other ships and situations that are not remotely the p-word but have been characterized as such to invalidate the pairing bc of ship wars or whatever.

It's just weird. It's so fucking weird and annoying, and at the end of the day it's only a justification for harassing and bullying and gatekeeping people out of places and it has been used time and time again by hateful people (again: queer used to be considered synonymous with the p-word when homophobia was even more rampant than it is today, and even TODAY gay people are still being accused of it just for existing)

Like i dOnT whO nEEds 2 HeAr ThiS but bullying people on the internet for fandom stuff is not going to save the children of the world from being preyed upon. If that is really one's goal, to HELP children, there are so many things offline in the real goddamn world that one can involved with to help. But sure, you just keep going on bullying, harassing and doxxing and watering down an important distinction on the internet. I'm sure that's gonna save so many children.

Fucking ridiculous.

[deathsdivinity]

I LOVED YOUR NEW FIC SOSOMUCH god grace max messy undefinable relationship is so fucking real I'm obsessed w it. they should make each other worse but also better but also worse but also a secret third thing...

BAWL S MY EYES OUT thank you SO MUCH !!!!!!!!!! WORSE BUT ALSO BETTER BUT ALSO WORSE BUT ALSO SECRET THIRD THING IS SO FUCKING TRUE.

no bc like. they're SO insanely important to me it is Unreal. just. just. two people with such vastly different families raised such vastly different ways but both SO damaging both SO bad for them... the thought of recognizing some of that in each other....... just. just. idk. something about learning so much about another person and them helping you to learn so much about yourself, without even meaning to. realizing how little they both know about what it means to live their own lives what it means to do what THEY want to do what it means to want anything at all.

they're both such fucking control freaks too like. max having the entire school under his thumb, controlling everyone around him, he gets no say in his own life but he can have a say in theirs, grace having no say in her own life but pretending she does pretending it IS her choice it IS what she wants both of them deluding themselves into thinking this is something they want something they enjoy this is how they're meant to live...

grace only barely actually believing in christianity. max thinking his life will be over after high school.

ohhhh and thats not even getting into queer stuff... the thought of max as transmasc or grace as transfem or both, the thought of grace as transmasc or max as transfem or both, any exploration of gender or sexuality and how that would help shape their relationship and define the trust they have in each other.,..

just !! just !!!! i LOVE the idea of them moving out together, neither family realizing their kid has a roommate bc grace would NEVER be allowed to live with max and max would NEVER be allowed to live with grace, both breaking the rules both creating this safe space within their own defiance...

the thought of like. maybe grace has never learned how to do basic household chores because someone else has always done it for her and she hasnt really been allowed to try and learn, maybe max had NEEDED to learn because if he didnt do it nobody else would and he can teach her or maybe it'd be reversed and she could teach him or maybe NEITHER of them know and they both learn how to cook and clean and do laundry and everything together...

grace NEVER being allowed to explore her sexuality in any way, ever, not even being allowed to THINK about it, and her and max being nonromantic but they still grow so close and so trusting and there's so much they don't know and its just. even when they havent known each other long even when there hasnt been much time for that trust to grow, the other person is someone safe. they can talk about these things they can have questions they can explore, they're allowed to feel the way they feel allowed to express themselves the way they want to allowed to believe what they want to believe.........

fighting and arguing and getting angry and they're allowed to do that, too, they can BE upset they can LEAVE if they want to and they can always, always come back. being able to actually sit down and talk things out. being able to be honest with both each other and themselves.

idk !!!!!! learning how to live together. learning what it means to exist for themselves together. even if they didnt STAY together or anything, ive never really considered them in the Long Term, just. being able to do so much for each other in the time that they DO spend together. whhhhhhatever i dont even care. they mean nothing to me. i dont fucki,ng care abou t them.

[beachytablecloth]

hiii this is weird but i saw the post you reblogged about what age you came to term with being lgbtq and i dont have anyone else to really talk about this to lol but ive basically always know that i liked girls but always identified as bi even though ive questioned whether or not im a lesbian many times over the years. ive been in back to back long term relationships with men for the last 8 years (since i was 16, for 4 years each.) i feel like i cant keep lying to myself any longer, im never really attracted to any men in real life and looking back i dont think i ever have been but i literally got engaged 2 months ago to my boyfriend whom i love so much and i dont want to let him go but i feel i have to. im just so terrified of change, i just finished college, we're moving back to our home town, im gonna be on my own for the first time ever, not to mention the fact that i'll have to come out all over again and although my family is very liberal i know things will be weird for a bit. im sorry i know this is a lot but i also have a huge exam in 2 weeks to get licensed in my field and i had to tell this to someone so i didnt explode

hey anon. i wanna start by saying this isn’t weird at all. i can definitely empathize with not having anyone to talk to about this stuff 🫶

i’m really sorry you’re struggling so much. on top of this internal struggle you also just have a huge amount of major life events happening, which i can imagine is incredibly overwhelming!!

as to your boyfriend situation, i’m afraid i don’t have any advice to really give. i’ve never been in a committed relationship. but what i can say is that you owe it to yourself to be as true to who are you as you can.

in my experience, i tried on the bi label for a long time, because i recognized a bit after college that i was attracted to women (and had been for like my whole life lol). but i had this picture of how i felt my life had to go, and that definitely didn’t involve being queer. so even though i kind of came out as bi, i never let myself explore it as a true identity. i would kind of just be like “haha yeah girls are hot but that’s all”, and i continued trying to date men. it was very confusing to me bc i do think i have a bit of aesthetic attraction to men, and it took me a long time to realize that just because i can say “omg captain america is so hot” doesn’t mean i was ever actually sexually or romantically attracted to men. i mean, i would literally feel pits of dread whenever i tried to date men, and after the dates i’d usually feel gross and wrong and often had a stomach ache…. i chalked that all up to nerves or anxiety, and even at times worried something was fundamentally wrong with me. i thought “maybe i am incapable of love”. i never stopped to imagine that i was just trying to shoehorn myself into a box that i would never fit into.

all that to say, i completely understand and empathize with how hard of a journey it can be to figure out your identity as a queer person. i still feel like i have more work to do in that arena. but i hope you know you are not alone. i don’t know you, but i am so happy you came into my inbox today. like i said, i don’t really have any advice. but i can offer support and love. so please feel free to pop back in whenever you want to or need to 🫶

[autisticlee]

i've noticed that there's always a lot of discourse about trying on labels like for sexuality and gender for example. people saying if you dont know, don't claim am identity. people complaining about people using labels lying and being fakes. complaining when someone changes their lable/identity.

you even see it in conservatives who whine and cry about gender and sexuality saying stuff like "you can't know that yet/you're too young/what if it changes/you can't just decide now and change later" and seeing queer people say the same things can be super discouraging and alienating.

because the thing is, humans do change. It's a natural phenomenon we can't do anything about. it's perfectly ok to feel one way now and then realize you feel differently later on. it can be because life experiences changed who you, or you realize/discover something, or etc.

also, how will someone know who/what they are without trying things out to see what fits? to see what feels right? not everyone just KNOWS who they are or what they want or how they feel automatically. telling people they can't experiment to see what works does nothing but alienate them and make them feel even more lost and alone.

i know it's a bit more of a touchy and difficult subject and im debating adding it in, but I see a similar discourse for example in the autistic community where people try to gatekeep the identity for only "officially diagnosed" people. (I was trying to think of something else that's not only gender/sexuality because my whole point should apply to more than just queer identities but this is all I could think of atm) i've seen it in other communities as well (mental or physical illnesses and disabilities and stuff for example) you have to relate to an identity basically, in order to bring it to a doctor. usually a doctor won't just say "oh you have this!" on their own; you have to tell the doctor "I think I have this" and sometimes it takes you years of research to figure out things yourself (because we all know doctors can be useless at times) by that point, if someone is putting that much time into a thing, there less chance of them faking it. if they think they have a disorder like DID but don't, then they still need help. but there shouldn't be so much aggression towards people who get evaluated or reevaluated and realize they were wrong. it's actually ok to be wrong and correct yourself later, contrary to popular belief. 1 or 19 or even 100 people being wrong doesn't mean we should let that reflect on *everyone* and let people with ill intent call everyone a "faker"

even if it turns out you were wrong, there's no real harm in trying on things until you reach a final conclusion. it's other people's opnions and reactions to it that are the harmful part.

[imagine if you had to guess what clothes and shoes would fit you, look good on you, and feel good without trying them on, you have to decide on one only, and then you have to keep wearing only those clothes and shoes after that and can never change out of them. that's so silly, right?]

sometimes you have to make guesses about your identity first and get confirmation later. sometimes you guess that you are a cishet man and date a cishet woman and realize a few years into the relationship that you are actually a trans lesbian. It's perfectly fine and normal to change after some time! we all need to not gatekeep and instead support each other. accept each other either way.

if someone feels they are trans for years and transitions and then realizes they are actually nonbinary and maybe slides into a more androgynous state or even stops transition or detransitions, don't call them fake! if someone is aroace and then starts dating, realizing they felt that way due to trauma in the past but were able to heal from it, don't call then a fraud! if a lesbian falls in love with a man and realizes she's actually bi, don't say she lied or tricked you!

yes, I know that there's often stigmas and stereotypes about changing. the whole "it's just a phase" thing for example. or accusing people of "following a trend." and the whole fact that the phobes always try to force their harmful belief that these identities are a "choice" and "choosing" them is wrong. change can mimic "a choice," but change does not always equal choice! someone changing does NOT always mean they are choosing something different. many times in life change isn't a choice!!! the fact that reflects poorly on the lables/communities by those who already have a bias against them is what needs change.

but that's the thing. that's precisely what i'm saying. we need to break down those stigmas around change. so what if it's a "phase" ???? why can't someone have an experience for a short time and then change it later due to whatever reason or circumstances? why can't someone try something out and then realize it's not right later on? why do we have to decide on a label or identity for life while still trying to figure out who we are? why is someone naturally changing or realizing something about themselves considered lying and fake? why do we let other people's bad opinions create stigmas and stereotypes around everything and then let that dictate everything we do? instead of gatekeeping and hurting potential new community members, why can't we break down those stereotypes and stigmas instead? instead of shaming people who try out your lables, why not shame and demonize the people that throw stereotypes and stigmas at you just because someone else is trying to figure out who they are still????? why let haters dictate how you treat others?

choose the right battles. fight the right people.

[violentviolette]

I may be misreading the tags, but how exactly does your wife identify with the lesbian label? You're a trans man, so I'm curious as to how your wife's label affects the relationship and what not (as in, how does your wife view you and be attracted to you in a 'lesbian' way). Fuck I am asking this terribly LMAO if your wife is fine with elaborating on their label(s), that would be cool! I'd like to educate myself on "unconventional labels" more.

i think my wife identifies as a lesbian pretty easily actually lol pretty sure it's as natural as breathing for her at this point after 25+ years. and i actually dont think there's anything unconventional about it at all, she's just a lesbian and it doesnt really effect our relationship cause neither one of us has any issue with the others labels and we dont feel they contradict our own. my wife is a butch lesbian and im a nb trans man and thats really all there is to it. she loves me like a person loves another person

real life is very very rarely as neat and orderly and catagorized as online queer spaces make it sound, and i think our situation is much more common than most people who mostly only interact with other queer ppl online think. in real life queer communities specific labels matter WAY less than they ever do here, u dont have to change ur entire label and identity for a single person. my wife and i are both deeply queer and we love eachother and that's what matters most to us both.

we met and started dating when we were 19, i didnt realize i was trans until i was around like 25ish and at that point we'd been together for 6 years and had built a life with one another. we obviously had a lot of talks about it at first while i was first coming out and figuring out what i wanted for myself. we talked about what was important to each of us, what we were comfortable with, where each of our boundaries were, what were deal breakers for us, ect. Obviously every individual person is going to be different and everyones comfort levels and needs and preferences are going to be different, and so not everyone in our same position would feel the same, and if certain things were different about either of us we might not feel the same, but for us we ended up not really having any issues staying together

i think the biggest thing for each of us was retaining our autonomy and not feeling the need to change either of our language to try and accomodate the other. being a lesbian and that label is important to my wife, she isnt attracted to men and has no interest in dating men, she's a very classic butch dyke and that identity and community is important to her, so there's really no need for her to change her label or sense of self just to justify her love for me, it's just not neccessary. i know she loves me for the person i am because no one alive knows me better than her, and thats more than enough for me.

and in the same way i dont feel the need to downplay my masculinity or hide my gender or call myself any less of a man in order to justify loving and staying together with her. im a dude and a guy and i use he pronouns and she has always respected that and never tried to discourge me for her own sake. she wants me to be happy and authentic and true to myself and has no need or desire to feminize me in any way in order to continue to love me. she knows the whole person i am and is not only okay with that, but genuinely enjoys it. she can not love men while still loving me.

and thats really all there is to it, i dont think it's that unconventional or weird or even contradictary. we're queer and thats what matters. i think one of the best things about being queer is being able to fuck with those conceptions and those binaries and the rules given to us by cishet society

im a bisexual femme ass boygirl and my wife is a dyke ass lesbian girlboy. we're both a little gender fucky and thats the way we like it.

[nothorses]

Interview With An Ex-Radfem

exradfem is an anonymous Tumblr user who identifies as transmasculine, and previously spent time in radical feminist communities. They have offered their insight into those communities using their own experiences and memories as a firsthand resource.

Background

I was raised in an incredibly fundamentalist religion, and so was predisposed to falling for cult rhetoric. Naturally, I was kicked out for being a lesbian. I was taken in by the queer community, particularly the trans community, and I got back on my feet- somehow. I had a large group of queer friends, and loved it. I fully went in on being the Best Trans Ally Possible, and constantly tried to be a part of activism and discourse.

Unfortunately, I was undersocialized, undereducated, and overenthusiastic. I didn't fully understand queer or gender theory. In my world, when my parents told me my sexuality was a choice and I wasn't born that way, they were absolutely being homophobic. I understood that no one should care if it's a choice or not, but it was still incredibly, vitally important to me that I was born that way.

On top of that, I already had an intense distrust of men bred by a lot of trauma. That distrust bred a lot of gender essentialism that I couldn't pull out of the gender binary. I felt like it was fundamentally true that men were the problem, and that women were inherently more trustworthy. And I really didn't know where nonbinary people fit in.

Then I got sucked down the ace exclusionist pipeline; the way the arguments were framed made sense to my really surface-level, liberal view of politics. This had me primed to exclude people –– to feel like only those that had been oppressed exactly like me were my community.

Then I realized I was attracted to my nonbinary friend. I immediately felt super guilty that I was seeing them as a woman. I started doing some googling (helped along by ace exclusionists on Tumblr) and found the lesfem community, which is basically radfem “lite”: lesbians who are "only same sex attracted". This made sense to me, and it made me feel so much less guilty for being attracted to my friend; it was packaged as "this is just our inherent, biological desire that is completely uncontrollable". It didn't challenge my status quo, it made me feel less guilty about being a lesbian, and it allowed me to have a "biological" reason for rejecting men.

I don't know how much dysphoria was playing into this, and it's something I will probably never know; all of this is just piecing together jumbled memories and trying to connect dots. I know at the time I couldn't connect to this trans narrative of "feeling like a woman". I couldn't understand what trans women were feeling. This briefly made me question whether I was nonbinary, but radfem ideas had already started seeping into my head and I'm sure I was using them to repress that dysphoria. That's all I can remember.

The lesfem community seeded gender critical ideas and larger radfem princples, including gender socialization, gender as completely meaningless, oppression as based on sex, and lesbian separatism. It made so much innate sense to me, and I didn't realize that was because I was conditioned by the far right from the moment of my birth. Of course women were just a biological class obligated to raise children: that is how I always saw myself, and I always wanted to escape it.

I tried to stay in the realms of TIRF (Trans-Inclusive Radical Feminist) and "gender critical" spaces, because I couldn't take the vitriol on so many TERF blogs. It took so long for me to get to the point where I began seeing open and unveiled transphobia, and I had already read so much and bought into so much of it that I thought that I could just ignore those parts.

In that sense, it was absolutely a pipeline for me. I thought I could find a "middle ground", where I could "center women" without being transphobic.

Slowly, I realized that the transphobia was just more and more disgustingly pervasive. Some of the trans men and butch women I looked up to left the groups, and it was mostly just a bunch of nasty people left. So I left.

After two years offline, I started to recognize I was never going to be a healthy person without dealing with my dysphoria, and I made my way back onto Tumblr over the pandemic. I have realized I'm trans, and so much of this makes so much more sense now. I now see how I was basically using gender essentialism to repress my identity and keep myself in the closet, how it was genuinely weaponized by TERFs to keep me there, and how the ace exclusionist movement primed me into accepting lesbian separatism- and, finally, radical feminism.

The Interview

You mentioned the lesfem community, gender criticals, and TIRFs, which I haven't heard about before- would you mind elaborating on what those are, and what kinds of beliefs they hold?

I think the lesfem community is recruitment for lesbians into the TERF community. Everything is very sanitized and "reasonable", and there's an effort not to say anything bad about trans women. The main focus was that lesbian = homosexual female, and you can't be attracted to gender, because you can't know someone's gender before knowing them; only their sex.

It seemed logical at the time, thinking about sex as something impermeable and gender as internal identity. The most talk about trans women I saw initially was just in reference to the cotton ceiling, how sexual orientation is a permanent and unchangeable reality. Otherwise, the focus was homophobia. This appealed to me, as I was really clinging to the "born this way" narrative.

This ended up being a gateway to two split camps - TIRFs and gender crits.

I definitely liked to read TIRF stuff, mostly because I didn't like the idea of radical feminism having to be transphobic. But TIRFs think that misogyny is all down to hatred of femininity, and they use that as a basis to be able to say trans women are "just as" oppressed.

Gender criticals really fought out against this, and pushed the idea that gender is fake, and misogyny is just sex-based oppression based on reproductive issues. They believe that the source of misogyny is the "male need to control the source of reproduction"- which is what finally made me think I had found the "source" of my confusion. That's why I ended up in gender critical circles instead of TIRF circles.

I'm glad, honestly, because the mask-off transphobia is what made me finally see the light. I wouldn't have seen that in TIRF communities.

I believed this in-between idea, that misogyny was "sex-based oppression" and that transphobia was also real and horrible, but only based on transition, and therefore a completely different thing. I felt that this was the "nuanced" position to take.

The lesfem community also used the fact that a lot of lesbians have partners who transition, still stay with their lesbian partners, and see themselves as lesbian- and that a lot of trans men still see themselves as lesbians. That idea is very taboo and talked down in liberal queer spaces, and I had some vague feelings about it that made me angry, too. I really appreciated the frank talk of what I felt were my own taboo experiences.

I think gender critical ideology also really exploited my own dysphoria. There was a lot of talk about how "almost all butches have dysphoria and just don't talk about it", and that made me feel so much less alone and was, genuinely, a big relief to me that I "didn't have to be trans".

Lesfeminism is essentially lesbian separatism dressed up as sex education. Lesfems believe that genitals exist in two separate categories, and that not being attracted to penises is what defines lesbians. This is used to tell cis lesbians, "dont feel bad as a lesbian if you're attracted to trans men", and that they shouldn’t feel "guilty" for not being attracted to trans women. They believe that lesbianism is not defined as being attracted to women, it is defined as not being attracted to men; which is a root idea in lesbian separatism as well.

Lesfems also believe that attraction to anything other than explicit genitals is a fetish: if you're attracted to flat chests, facial hair, low voices, etc., but don't care if that person has a penis or not, you're bisexual with a fetish for masculine attributes. Essentially, they believe the “-sexual” suffix refers to the “sex” that you are assigned at birth, rather than your attraction: “homosexual” refers to two people of the same sex, etc. This was part of their pushback to the ace community, too.

I think they exploited the issues of trans men and actively ignored trans women intentionally, as a way of avoiding the “TERF” label. Pronouns were respected, and they espoused a constant stream of "trans women are women, trans men are men (but biology still exists and dictates sexual orientation)" to maintain face.

They would only be openly transmisogynistic in more private, radfem-only spaces.

For a while, I didn’t think that TERFs were real. I had read and agreed with the ideology of these "reasonable" people who others labeled as TERFs, so I felt like maybe it really was a strawman that didn't exist. I think that really helped suck me in.

It sounds from what you said like radical feminism works as a kind of funnel system, with "lesfem" being one gateway leading in, and "TIRF" and "gender crit" being branches that lesfem specifically funnels into- with TERFs at the end of the funnel. Does that sound accurate?

I think that's a great description actually!

When I was growing up, I had to go to meetings to learn how to "best spread the word of god". It was brainwashing 101: start off by building a relationship, find a common ground. Do not tell them what you really believe. Use confusing language and cute innuendos to "draw them in". Prey on their emotions by having long exhausting sermons, using music and peer pressure to manipulate them into making a commitment to the church, then BAM- hit them with the weird shit.

Obviously I am paraphrasing, but this was framed as a necessary evil to not "freak out" the outsiders.

I started to see that same talk in gender critical circles: I remember seeing something to the effect of, "lesfem and gender crit spaces exist to cleanse you of the gender ideology so you can later understand the 'real' danger of it", which really freaked me out; I realized I was in a cult again.

I definitely think it's intentional. I think they got these ideas from evangelical Christianity, and they actively use it to spread it online and target young lesbians and transmascs. And I think gender critical butch spaces are there to draw in young transmascs who hate everything about femininity and womanhood, and lesfem spaces are there to spread the idea that trans women exist as a threat to lesbianism.

Do you know if they view TIRFs a similar way- as essentially prepping people for TERF indoctrination?

Yes and no.

I've seen lots of in-fighting about TIRFs; most TERFs see them as a detriment, worse than the "TRAs" themselves. I've also definitely seen it posed as "baby's first radfeminism". A lot of TIRFs are trans women, at least from what I've seen on Tumblr, and therefore are not accepted or liked by radfems. To be completely honest, I don't think they're liked by anyone. They just hate men.

TIRFs are almost another breed altogether; I don't know if they have ties to lesfems at all, but I do think they might've spearheaded the online ace exclusionist discourse. I think a lot of them also swallowed radfem ideology without knowing what it was, and parrot it without thinking too hard about how it contradicts with other ideas they have.

The difference is TIRFs exist. They're real people with a bizarre, contradictory ideology. The lesfem community, on the other hand, is a completely manufactured "community" of crypto-terfs designed specifically to indoctrinate people into TERF ideology.

Part of my interest in TIRFs here is that they seem to have a heavy hand in the way transmascs are treated by the trans community, and if you're right that they were a big part of ace exclusionism too they've had a huge impact on queer discourse as a whole for some time. It seems likely that Baeddels came out of that movement too.

Yes, there’s a lot of overlap. The more digging I did, the more I found that it's a smaller circle running the show than it seems. TIRFs really do a lot of legwork in peddling the ideology to outer queer community, who tend to see it as generic feminism.

TERFs joke a lot about how non-radfems will repost or reblog from TERFs, adding "op is a TERF”. They're very gleeful when people accept their ideology with the mask on. They think it means these people are close to fully learning the "truth", and they see it as further evidence they have the truth the world is hiding. I think it's important to speak out against radical feminism in general, because they’re right; their ideology does seep out into the queer community.

Do you think there's any "good" radical feminism?

No. It sees women as the ultimate victim, rather than seeing gender as a tool to oppress different people differently. Radical feminism will always see men as the problem, and it is always going to do harm to men of color, gay men, trans men, disabled men, etc.

Women aren't a coherent class, and radfems are very panicked about that fact; they think it's going to be the end of us all. But what's wrong with that? That's like freaking out that white isn't a coherent group. It reveals more about you.

It's kind of the root of all exclusionism, the more I think about it, isn't it? Just freaking out that some group isn't going to be exclusive anymore.

Radical feminists believe that women are inherently better than men.

For TIRFs, it's gender essentialism. For TERFs, its bio essentialism. Both systems are fundamentally broken, and will always hurt the groups most at risk. Centering women and misogyny above all else erases the root causes of bigotry and oppression, and it erases the intersections of race and class. The idea that women are always fundamentally less threatening is very white and privileged.

It also ignores how cis women benefit from gender norms just as cis men do, and how cis men suffer from gender roles as well. It’s a system of control where gender non-conformity is a punishable offense.

[leonsi]

seeing all these rottmnt/2012 crossovers bash on the 2012 bros’ relationship with each other is kiiindaaa upsetting as someone who’s uncomfortable with expressing and receiving overt affection

but hey what do i know i probablyy just have all toxic unhealthy relationships where we never understand each other and share mutual trust and love *twirls hair*

the 2012 bros may not openly express their love like the rottmnt boys do, but that doesnt mean its not there. and acting like the rottmnt relationships are automatically better and the only Right standard for healthy relationships seems pretty,, juvenile and inexperienced imo. love isnt only expressed through physical affection and saying things like “i love you,” openly, and assuming there is no love in a relationship without those things is… odd.

love is not only in words or hugs. the 2012 boys can love each other just as much as the rottmnt boys without being open about it. 2012 raph, especially, loves to show affection through acts of service, physical affection, and quality time, but he doesn’t like any of this to be commented on because it makes him uncomfortable. and thats okay! he doesn’t need to express affection openly to have it be there.

just as rottmnt donnie can express love and affection outside of hugs and words, so too can the 2012 boys. they all have their own unique ways of expressing love that the others all respect and recognize, and dismissing that feels less like it’s intentional, and more like the people writing these crossovers just don’t recognize alternate forms of expression exist. which, again,, reeks of inexperience.

( also semi-related tangent speaking of donnie he literally fucking . put a shock collar on his brother like he’s a dog in an attempt to change him. and brainwashed his brothers. and frequently puts his own wants and needs over their own - which is totally fine, if it didn’t happen all the time. it’s kinda laughable to say 2012 raph is worse than rottmnt donnie honestly

siblings hit each other. okay. siblings hit each other. i need y’all to recognize this. i will power drive my little brother into the floor over the last oreo. siblings hitting each other is not abusive (TYPICALLY) because there are established boundaries both parties abide by. like i will never touch my siblings if they are in a bad mood, trying to concentrate on something, or otherwise in a bad position (like standing somewhere dangerous, by a corner etc), and i will never intentionally hurt them. if i think they are actually hurt, we stop immediately until they tell me theyre fine. roughhousing with your siblings is fun. it is bonding. its a self-esteem booster to be able to pick up ur freshman brother okay.

the 2012 bros always abide by these rules. they never hurt each other beyond what the other party can handle, and if they do, it is very clearly treated as a bad thing by them or the other brothers so they realize they went over the line, and they resolve it by the end of the episode (as is the way of formulaic kids shows).

rottmnt donnie. put a fucking shock collar on his brother. and this is funny to him. and not something he ever learns from. and totally not weirdly sexual. But 2012 raph is the bad guy? ok )

i mean. i dont know what i expect from a fandom full of chronically online children who truly dont have experience with relationships. but it just really irks me for some reason and its currently one in the morning so im feeling whiny about it.

affection outside of words and hugs exists. affection outside of words and hugs exist!! and if you know that then you know that the 2012 boys love each other so so so much, just as much as rottmnt. just because they express it differently than in sanitized queer TV shows and not overtly, so you kinda have to pick up on nuance, doesnt mean they dont love each other. let people love other people in non-overt ways!

[demadogs]

I personally think Mike already realized he loves will at the end of S3. What are your opinions on that last scene where he goes to hug his mom?

i dont think he’s had his full conscious realization yet because the audience would need to be aware of that too. they cant just start season 4 and show mike pining without an explanation. we have to be in on it because they didnt queer code mike nearly as heavily as they did will (and i think the reason for that is because he doesnt know he’s gay! will does so thats why we see it more). it would seem outta nowhere if we didnt see his epiphany moment. they have to show us a very obvious, irrefutable moment of this realization.

that moment with his mom mightve been more about his confusion for the lack of love he feels for el, but he’s not thinking about the fact that it’s because she’s a girl. i think he’s genuinely confused, or as finn has called him, clueless as to why he couldnt say he loves her to her face. and in that moment where he hugs his mom he thinks there might be something “wrong” with him but doesnt know what yet.

i do think he’s noticed that he feels more strongly about will than dustin or lucas but again, he’s clueless and doesn’t realize what that means. and i think deep down he’s always known he’s not that satisfied with el, especially from that first scene of them making out where you see him moving her hands and not letting her touch him, but this is his first relationship and he probably doesnt realize that it could be better and he’s not at all considering how different it would be with a guy.

maybe his whole ignoring will for el strategy in s3 was this subconscious act of avoiding confrontation with what that strong feeling could mean because he doesnt wanna know. spending all his time with el and ignoring will and the others last season might have been an effort to try and be more satisfied romantically with her or finally feel that “electricity” like dustin was talking about in s2, but he never feels it. but then when its flipped this season and he’s spending all his time with will and not el, THATS when he feels it and he has that “holy shit i like will” moment.

[nerdygaymormon]

I'm sorry to dump this on you when you've already had your own hqrd stuff recently, but I've always respected your takes and advice before, and I ry need to reach out to someone actually older then me who gets the struggles of being LDS/Queer from the inside.

I'm 30, female, realized I was queer 2 years ago and I just feel so utterly hopeless lately, the last conference pretty much killed any lingering hope I had that the church would be improving in any truly significant ways in my lifetime, I'd honeslty leave but I also know that doing so could cause huge tension in my family, as two siblings and one parent are supportive but the others are not. My parenta divorced when I was 12 and after a few years of heavy tension they've managed to have an amenable realtionship again and I dont want to be the cause of destorying that again.

Honestly I'm so angry at the church for making me feel like my relationships with my family are held hostage to their litany of conditional love. I used to love this church so mucb but now all I feel is anger and disgust at it, and that honestly scares me. I dont like being so angry, but I feel so trapped and hopeless.

I've honestly considered just running away, but it such a jerk move and with technology the way it is my family would find me anyway. They're not abusive just unsupportive and often forecful in the way they express their opinions. My supportive beother keeps telling me I should just tell our mom how I feel, but everytime I start to work up the courage she says something to the effect of how liberals and such are ruining the country.

I know I'm only at the beginning of this road, but it just feels like there's no way forward for me anymore.

I appreciate the compliment. And don't worry about if this is a good or a bad time for me, being LDS & LGBTQ is always going to come with some challenges and low times.

------------------------------------------------------

I want to point out that the thoughts about running away and cutting off contact with everyone and starting again is a form of passive suicidal ideation. Passive means you are not looking to unalive yourself but if it happens you'd welcome it, like being hit by a bus or being diagnosed with a terminal illness. Leaving behind your life and everyone in it is like saying you want to end this life.

------------------------------------------------------

Relationships are complicated, especially within a family. I don't think it's fair to blame children for the relationship of parents or other adults. You coming out, you stepping away from church, that shouldn't be a determining factor in your parents' relationship with each other.

------------------------------------------------------

You wrote that every time you start to work up the courage to talk with your mom, she goes on some political rant.

That to me indicates you are ready. It wasn't clear if you're out, but my guess is that you aren't. I think being out will make the second conversation about the church easier to have because it helps explain that decision.

I have some thoughts about coming out that I hope are helpful, they'll also work for a difficult conversation about church

*  Pick a good time and place. It might not be “perfect”, and if you get nerves and back out, that’s okay, more opportunities will come along      **  Typically it’s better if you can have their undivided attention, not while they’re cooking or watching a movie. And usually not at an event like Thanksgiving dinner or your sister’s wedding      **  You can choose to make this formal by inviting them to sit down and that you have something to say      **  You can choose to bring this up while you’re just together having a relaxed conversation      **  You don’t have to tell the whole family or both parents at the same time      **  You can be honest about your feelings. Tell them you’re feeling a little nervous or anxious but you have something important you’d like them to know

*  If it’s too hard to have a face-to-face conversation, or you live apart from them and getting together isn’t feasible, you can always choose other ways, like writing a letter, making a video. You do what works for you

*  When you tell them, also tell let them know you love them and you want a close, honest, loving relationship with them. Be positive and affirming

*  Reassure them that you are happy and healthy. Or if you’re dealing with serious issues, like depression or suicidal thoughts, you can also tell them this and that you hadn’t been able to tell them before, that you want their help

*  Understand that they also have a process to go through. Don’t judge them too harshly if their first comments and questions aren’t the kind you’re hoping for

*  Have some educational resources for them      **  The Family & Friends section of the church's website on same-sex attraction      **  The Family History Project has a very good Mormon-specific pamphlet

*  Be prepared for some questions. You aren’t required to have all the answers      **  They might ask about your future, your faith, your relationships.      **  Maybe even basic things like “Are you sure?” “How did you decide?’ “How long have you known?”

*  You could think about what ways you’d like them to support you. If they ask how can they help, you’ll be ready with some ideas. Also ask to let you get back to them with more thoughts after you’ve had time to think about it

*  Make it clear this is the beginning, not the end. There’ll be more conversations      **  After the initial dialogue, your parents or close friends might need some time to digest the information. You’ve been on this path longer than they have, you’ve worked through difficult feelings and different steps

*  Be clear about with whom they can and cannot share this information about you 

*  If you’re physically in the same space, I hope at the conclusion of the conversation that things are such that you can give them a hug while saying you love them

------------------------------------------------------

I know this is already pretty long, but I've been thinking about some questions since Elder Oaks' talk at General Conference. I thought if I share them, you might see you have some of the same ones. And I hope that going through the list, it helps you think about what you believe.

Why would God create people this way (gay, trans, ace, etc) and then expressly forbid them from being who they are?

What revelation or scriptural passages are the Church’s policies about LGBTQIA+ people are based on?

How much do we know about heaven? Seems we have very few details. How is it one thing we’re certain of is that there’s no queer people in heaven?

What is the purpose of queer lives? What are we meant to do? We can't complete the Covenant Path or qualify for exaltation. The big goals of the Plan of Happiness are forbidden to us. Surely our lives have meaning, too

Please don't tell me I can be happy when I'm dead. I need hope in this life, not another reason to contemplate suicide. The LDS Church teaches that “men are that they might have joy.” How does this fit with banning queer people from things that bring the most joy in life?

How am I supposed to make sense of all the queer people who feel assurance that God loves them as they are? That they’re meant to be ace, aro, demi, pan, poly, gay, bi, trans, nb, genderfluid, lesbian, & so on? Why does God whisper comfort to our hearts if we're wrong?

If "wickedness never was happiness" (Alma 41:10), what does that say for all the queer people I know who find happiness in life with a spouse or by expressing their gender identity? To me, this verse testifies those things aren't wicked

Is anyone from church leadership in dialogue with queer members? Do they understand our needs? Do they know the pain and heartache that their teachings cause us? So often it seems they talk about us as if we aren’t even in the room.

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them" (Matthew 7:20) 89% of LGBT LDS members have PTSD symptoms. Studies show increased church activity correlates with lower quality of life, lower self-esteem, higher rates of depression, sexual identity crisis & internalized homophobia

God must love LGBTQIA+ people because more of us are being born every day. How can the creator of diversity not have accounted for it in His plan? Have you ever considered that we only have part of the Plan, that there's more to it? The restoration is ongoing.

------------------------------------------------------

Wishing all the best for you

[fandomfluffandfuck]

Not to be 👃👃👃 but I'm curious 🤔 whats you're relationship with your male-ness? Like crying and such? Were you raised with the boys🤷‍♂️dont🤷‍♂️cy🤷‍♂️

I don't think this is too nosy, don't worry. Actually, I think it's a good thing. Self reflection is always good. But, because it's not fandom related and probably gonna be a bit of a lengthy ramble, I'll put my relationship with masculinity below the cut-

*sensitivity warning for: discussions of toxic masculinity, body image issues, eating disorders, the Q slur, LGBTQ+ realizations & identity, offscreen hunting, strained family relations, depression, etc.

Before I say anything specific, I'm going to mention that I definitely have had to do a lot of unlearning and lot of work around my masculinity. There are still things I need to work on. Completely. But I do think I have a better relationship with it than, say, the male peers I have at my school. Especially considering the environment I find myself in being predominantly white, straight, and cis (outside of my art specific courses because art kids are weird lmao). White boys who've never questioned their sexuality are... uh... sometimes a bit like rocks lmao. They don't understand a lot of things that I, still a white male, but a queer male have had to confront.

Also- for the purpose of social science, I grew up in the lower-middle class with straight, cis, Christian parents that were older (in their 40s) when they began having children and I'm the youngest. Meaning, my parents are DEFINITELY in a separate generation from me.

Crying - let's start there since you outright mentioned it in your ask. Crying is incredibly difficult for me, point blank. I totally grew up being told that "boys don't cry" and to "man up" or "buck up" if I was crying. So, that's a reason, but also, I typically have other coping mechanisms than crying when something upsets me? I don’t think it's a toxicly masculine thing so much as it's a me, a human being, thing. Perhaps I don't cry often now because I cried all my tears as a kid lmao, I cried a l l the time as a kid.

*insert that CE quote here, [in response to, "what were you at 10?"], "uhh, crying, probably."*

I have two older siblings and as siblings do, they would often beat up on me, but also just- I had a lot of emotions growing up. And I was ignored a lot. So it made sense for me to cry all the time lol, crying meant getting attention or getting mercy haha. I used to cry so much that I was taunted for being a "cry-baby" and a "cissy". Then the teenage depression hit and I stopped. [This is not a flex and not good for you-! But, to illustrate my point, I don't think I cried once between 6th (11y/o) and 12th grade (18y/o) and those were the darkest times of my life so... that checks out]

Queerness - another prominent thing that relates to my masculinity is my status in the LGBTQIA(+) community. Being in the community usually makes people brush me off as less masculine instantly. Sometimes with the stereotypes of queer men, people won't even believe me because I'm not FEMININE enough for them. Femininty, flamboyance-y, or anything like that doesn't equate to sexuality. My voice being deep doesn't mean I don't like dick, Karen. Anyway lol- I generally use bisexual with a preference for women/feminine people (or I just say queer, depending on the person I'm speaking to) as a quick short-hand when I meet people because it’s much easier than saying, well, you see, I have a very difficult time being romantically or sexually interested in anyone unless/until I know them well enough to consider them a friend. And I tend to make friends with women easier than men therefore, even though I don't feel the difference between falling for women, men, or NB/GNC people, I tend to date more women. But, labels aside, because of my sexuality, I've always had to war with the "inherent femininity" of being attracted to men. It used to bother me a lot, imagining being with a man as opposed to a woman, because I thought it made me instantly become the "woman" of the relationship (y'know when the first question by straight people is always "so who's the woman?") , which unlocks another masculinity feel...

Appearance - if you have been around on this blog from the beginning (totally fine if you haven't) then you know that I share a striking resemblance to pre-serum Steve. I'm not blonde and I don't have blue eyes (I have brown, curly/wavy hair with dark green eyes), but I am short and skin-and-bones. I'm 5'6 and weigh about 110-120ish. So. I'm not super muscular. I'm not a big man, I'm just not. It's not how I'm built, even while in the best health I've ever been. Neither are the other men in my family built super "masculine-ly". But that didn't stop me, as a young dude, from working-out incredibly unhealthily, dangerously really, and developing eating disorders. I'm not built in the "classic" or "correct" masculine way (I also have a birth defect, pectus excavatum, but that's more just- oh, I don't look like other people, not specifically masculinity issue). Now, I try to shrug it off on bad days and on good days, work towards peace with it, this is the only body I'll ever have and it mostly works so... what else could I want? We're not gonna talk about genitalia today lol, that's a different line. Just know that I quickly unlearned that gender does Not equal genitalia because the fuck?? It's just flesh. Who gives a shit.

Fashion - I'm separating appearance in body here and fashion because I think there's a difference, at least for me. I can't change my body, I can change the fabric on it though lol. Fashion wise I definitely gravitate towards black and dark values as opposed to color, also - perhaps because I'm queer and therefore have always been told I should care about my fashion and appearance in a different way to straight men - I like alternative aesthetics. Which, both, also got me called some pretty nasty things (F and Q slurs included) behind and in front of my back. Both by family and peers. I've had people say they "could tell" I'm gay because I wear clothes that, sure, are oversized because I'm smaller, but still fit relatively well. Because I'm not in camo and cargo shorts and caps pulled down to my eyebrows. Whatever. Within alternative fashion I still am attracted to really stereotypically masculine things: leather jackets, t-shirts or button ups, clunky work boots, thick watches, silver rings (I am an artist okay? Of course I have decorative rings (my friend gave me one that looks like a dragon and I adore it)), chain wallets, straight cut jeans (sometimes ripped if I'm extra edgy, but usually not), leather belts (I had a spiked belt at one point but I broke :( and I can't afford to replace it). I just love the look, classic but edgy. Even though I've been given shit for the way I dress, I've never been able to muster up a lot of guilt about it in relation to my manhood. Just more, like, why do people give a fuck? I dress like this because I like it. Why do you have to get pissy about it? You like what you like. I like what I like. I'm not hurting anyone! C'mon!

Face - as a man, I don't get much messaging about how you. must. be. beautiful. or. you're. worthless. However... the funny thing about mental health issues is that they tend to envelop all of you. I've had quite the battle with my own face. Especially having acne. There's about 5, 6, 7 years of my life with only a handful of photos because I hated it so much.

Hobbies - I'm not built with super huge muscles or super lanky, nor do I dress entirely "traditionally masculine" but at least I really like trucks-! That's masculine as all hell! Right? Just kidding. Other than camping/hiking/some outdoorsy stuff I grew up doing that were considered "boyish" activities because you have to get a little dirty and a little smelly for, I really did not follow the path of traditional masculinity in what I enjoy on the weekends either. I've mentioned it here and there but I'm an art major. I'm going to be an art teacher (which also is seen as a "feminine" thing because teaching is interacting with children and *gasp* how dare a man be around kids! Oh no!) I love making art. Drawing. Painting. Sculpting. Pottery. Writing. Poetry. Etc. All of which growing up, I could see as disappointing to my father because he expected me to be like my older brother. Who followed exactly in his footsteps, being a car/truck/mechanical, fixer-upper kind of guy. They even went hunting together for years and years (I tried to hunt with my father once my brother moved out, to fill some sort of role my father wanted for me but... quite frankly, I found it boring. And I learned quickly that I will never be as close to my father as my brother is to him, which is fair). Always outside on the weekends fixing our vehicles or improving the house or whatever tinkering they did. I was never interested and because of it, I was called a "mama's boy" a lot. But. Eh. I like art. I've had my guilt about it and gotten over it by now. I find the ability to know what kind of car is passing and what's wrong with said car by the sound of the car alone to just be a weird flex now haha. Sure, I've plenty of thoughts of, oh, I should be that way... why aren't I? here and there but... it came from other people more than myself really. I have never been wired that way. I like art, not cars and tools lol

Friendships - sexuality and masculinity get wrapped up together here again. Most of my friends are somewhere in the rainbow. Most of them are women, cis and trans. I find a lot of women I'm not friends with give my the cold shoulder until they find out I'm in the LGBTQ+ community. Then they get really really friendly, which gave me guilt for two reasons for a while... 1) Because it always makes me re-remember how unsafe a lot of women feel around men through social training or horrible, lived experiences. 2) Because it made me feel just like the "gay best friend" who's looped into being one of her [aforementioned female friend] "girlfriends". I still feel that first one - the way society treats women like helpless, innocent flowers but men like uncontrollable predators ready to attack constantly makes me so angry - but the second one I've been working on. It doesn't make me less of a man to be accepted in with a group of women. Im just being included. It's a little upsetting to be stereotyped in such a way but, usually it's something that they don't mean harm by, y’know? Also, to be contradictory, it's actually nice sometimes. I'm not expected to only have surface level relationship as a lot of straight, cis men are expected to with their other male friends that way. But yeah... friendships are always in progress, you gotta work at them, and I have to work at my relationship with my relationships lol.

Behavior - the main behavior I have that has gotten me ostracized for feminine behavior/body language is talking with my hands. But, I don't care. I never really have. Like, oooh, oh no, I'm not a man because I have visual excitement and passion in my hands, how scary! Whatever. Other than that... I get told quite often to be more "confident" which equates to people telling me to "man up" and "take the bull by the horns" because an unfortunate amount of white men, I don't want into every room like I both built and own it y’know? Also I was a hell of a lot worse at one point in my life because I didn't have any confidence and I say crumpled in on myself because of aforementioned body issues. Posture is important though people, whoever you are, whatever your gender, take care of your fucking spine lol.

All in all though, masculine in traditional ways or not, I still am a man. I still feel masculine. I can't tell you what makes my brain feel like that and I can't change it. And now in life, I'm the most confident and comfortable in that as I've ever been before.

Thank you for the ask! It makes me wonder, why people are interested in me, but, this was fun to think about <3