#if you are calling a character rapist/abuser/asshole

[queen-morgana91]

Atla fandom one day will realize that you can dislike a character or a ship without being weird about it

[nalyra-dreaming]

Hi Nalyra,

have you noticed how the cast has difficulty answering the question about which character is better for their character?

They all have their traumas so we already know all of them are toxic to each other,there is nothing to be afraid,why they don't just answer 😅 (maybe it's the fandom toxicity they are afraid of)

You have seen the Jacob video on that, I gather :)

Yeah well, I mean, how do you want to answer that? They all are toxic to each other.

And...

What defines... "better"? To... put it a bit unseriously:

"Here I have Lestat, who I had literal (bloody) fights with, and who can be a real (abusive) asshole, and who likes to play with his food, which I really don't like"

and

"Here I have Armand, who is very tender with me, but also controls everything about our lives, tinkers with my mind, and killed my daughter, who was simply in his way of pursuing our relationship...."

... I mean... ☠

All of these characters are killers, rapists. VAMPIRES. They take what they want. That includes Louis, who is not without reason called the "most predatory" of them all by Akasha. They're all toxic AF and their relationships are messy, and driven by their elevated state of being and feeling. Them coming to terms with being the monster they are is literally a big arc in the books.

The show has been very clear about the endgame pairings, and so has been the marketing. And for good reason. The posters hinted at a lot already, allll the way back then.

This is not to take down the shipping, you can ship whatever you want. :)

But the cast is not so much afraid of fandom toxicity because of this question imho, than of giving things away for the general audience. Because they know what will happen of course. And that is precisely why Jacob is a bit afraid of the reactions.

The shit will hit the fan in the next 9 weeks.

I bet there will be a looooooot of discussion about who will be "better", lol. And about what will happen in the last episodes.

And... everyone can make up their own mind after season 2^^

EDIT: Here's Jacob saying Louis should choose himself

[musicalmoritz]

Idk if you were around during the pitchfork Tsukasa days where even having an au where Tsukasa didn’t get possessed by the entity and therefore was just a normal chaotic piece of shit (so first year him since we know in first year, he was literally just a little asshole) was branded to get you like, immediately persecuted. People made call out threads just cause you shipped Tsukasa with someone his age and told other people they deserved to be in a mental hospital or told to kys because they thought Tsukasa had nuance and when the possession theory was TRUE? People still badgered and hurt others to the point that some people are like, terrified of even admitting they like Tsukasa 😭. I remember being driven away from people my age in the fandom and getting dragged into shit circles because the fandom was like “you ship Tsukasa? You’re an abuse apologist!”

I was not around for those days, I’ve only been in the fandom for about a year but omg that sounds rough😭 I can relate tho, before I got into TBHK I was hyperfixated on Fruits Basket- specifically Shigure, Akito, and their relationship, and let me tell you…oof it was a struggle. Luckily I was able to stay in my own little fandom corner with other Akigure lovers but I had to block ppl every time I looked up edits for them on TikTok. I’m also a Hisoka fan so there’s that

Tbh it bothers me how fandoms moralize liking certain characters. I watched a video essay a few months ago on the Dahmer Netflix series and how people romanticize serial killers, and someone in the comments brought up The Joker as a comparison. Now I’ll be honest, The Joker is one of my least favorite characters ever, but he’s still a fictional character. The fact that it would even cross someone’s mind to put him in the same category as a real life rapist, cannibal, and murder, is genuinely so disturbing to me. This might sound dramatic but I was kinda messed up abt it for a while, it made me realize that this line of thinking with fiction can severely alter people’s empathy

Anyways, I’m sorry you had to deal with that. Fandoms are not very rational when it comes to these subjects and they’re very subject to groupthink. You hear the exact same argument reused to explain why Tsukasa shouldn’t be shipped because most of those people aren’t coming up with that opinion on their own, they’re copying what others have said. That’s why I headcanon him as aroace, I can’t picture him liking anyone romantically but I didn’t want to align myself with the rest of the fandom by saying he would automatically be a domestic abuser no matter who he’s with

He’s also a really cool character and tbh I feel like people are missing out by hating him on sight. So many fans seem baffled at the thought of anyone having positive feelings towards him. He’s not crazy high on my character ranking but I still love him dearly, I’m happy so many people have been asking about him today because it gives me a chance to defend my son (well, not defend his actions but yk, defend him from the fandom police)

[hellaversity]

It really says something that the Helluva Boss fandom is willing to excuse every evil action Stella does and every evil thing she says, especially her abuse towards Stolas and begging for her to have sympathetic traits, yet not once have I ever seen an HB fan desperately wishing for Crimson or Mammon to be portrayed more sympathetically than they are in the show and call it bad writing when they don't show any redeeming qualities. The fandom just accepts the fact that those guys are pure evil without batting an eye. Nobody asks why they're the way they are. But Stella? Nope, there MUST be a sympathetic reason for her being an abusive bitch to Stolas because it's apparently "unrealistic" for a woman to abuse her husband out of spite never mind the fact that those kinds of women actually exist in real life.

These images pretty much speak for themselves.

Crimson, Striker, Mammon, Andrealphus and Valentino are no less two-dimensionally evil than Stella is. What reason did Crimson have to murder his own wife and make his son experience it? Just to traumatize him? The show never really says why he does it, he just does it so the audience can have a reason to hate him. What reason does Striker have to help Stella try to kill Stolas? None, as far as we know. What is there to Mammon's character other than abusing Fizzarolli and being a greedy asshole in general? Why does Andrealphus flirt with his own sister and participate in her scheme to have Stolas murdered by Striker? Because reasons. Why is Valentino a rapist who takes advantage of Angel Dust and sexually abuses him? Just because he can. What makes Stella any different from these guys other than being female?

Fans are just asking for her to be more sympathetic because she's a woman and they can't accept the fact that women are capable of abuse without trying to justify it. The whole "behind every bad bitch is a man who made her that way" bullshit. People who see a woman beating her husband in public and automatically assume he did something to deserve it even if they have no evidence or context for what actually happened. Even though Stella has been treating Stolas like shit before he cheated on her, and he likely wouldn't be sleeping with Blitzø if she wasn't so horrible to him in the first place. He never even puts his hands on her and allowed her to abuse him so that Octavia could live and grow up with normal parents. (As normal as Stella and Stolas could possibly get with each other, anyway.)

Stella made fun of Stolas for not participating in sex with her and laughed about it while he was standing 2 feet away from her, and knew he was there. Whether or not she raped him to produce Octavia is a discussion for another day. If anything, Stolas cheating on her was revenge for treating him like garbage for so many years. She humiliated and embarassed him in public before getting a taste of her own medicine when Stolas does the same to her in return. She wouldn't even let him divorce her because she enjoys being mean to him. I wouldn't mind if Stella was given more charaterization outside of "abusive wife" but honestly? I don't really care if she's given sympathy or not. I don't want to sympathize with her. If Valentino isn't gonna change his ways any time soon, I have no reason to believe that Stella can. FFS Stella apologists make me mad. Even if you type in the "anti stella" tag on tumblr there are more posts defending and excusing her actions than those actually opposing her and saying "uh, no, she's just a cruel bitch" meanwhile if you type "anti Stolas" that's exactly what you're gonna get, pretty much exclusively.

Goes to show how hyper-sensitive tumblrinas are over female characters rightfully being portrayed as in the wrong when they fucking are.

[gwenllian-in-the-abbey]

What makes you interested in book!Aegon? (didn't read the books)

Thank you for asking this anon!

There is a LOT I could say about book!Aegon. To start, I think if you haven't read F&B it's kind of hard to understand that even moreso than with ASOIAF, there are almost no "good" characters unless you count people who are the completely innocent victims of other characters' actions, so choosing a character to like isn't really some moral or ethical issue the way a lot of show fans seem to make it out to be. In the actual historical Anarchy, I 100% think Matilda was done dirty and should have been queen. She was usurped by one of her cousins, not a brother, a guy who wasn't even the oldest male of his family, and beyond being her father's choice, her legal claim was stronger and she was a pretty impressive woman in her own right. But Rhaenyra is no Matilda, and F&B as a whole just doesn't have any Brienne of Tarths, or even Robb Starks. Hell, it's even pretty low on Jaime Lannisters. The most social-justice minded character is a five year old bastard and his lesbian sex-worker mothers who try to put him on the throne. You have characters who do one good or heroic thing like Addam Velaryon, and characters who are blandly inoffensive, like Jacaerys, but they are not really compelling dynamic characters either. You also have a lot of really loathsome assholes. Book!Aemond, for instance, doesn't even have the childhood bullying backstory to soften him, he's just violent, and often a liability. Aegon is one of the very few characters who actually has a dynamic character arc and a few redeeming qualities. He changes over the course of the story, shows a lot of resilience and tenacity, and ultimately, what happens to him is tragic. (This is long, I'm sorry. I'm incapable of being concise on this topic and I honestly could have said even more. Also, book spoilers ahead, obiously).

Just to get it out of the way, the show did Aegon pretty dirty in adapting Mushroom's accounts about the "guttersnipes" selectively. Mushroom talks a LOT of shit, and the stuff he says about Rhaenyra is almost more abhorrent than the stuff he says about Aegon, and he was actually on her side. Is Aegon a good, decent, honorable guy? Not really. Aegon is written as a hedonist. He's a drinker, he's gluttonous, and he sleeps around. The more neutral non-Mushroom sources say that Aegon was handsy with the maids (not great, to be clear), and we know he has a couple of bastards and likely at least one paramour, but there's no really credible suggestion that book!Aegon is some serial rapist. Is it plausible that he could have been? Sure. I'll give the haters that, it's not a huge stretch to say a guy who was handsy with the maids might have taken other liberties, but I'll also say this: George does not have a problem outright stating that someone is a rapist or an abuser when that is his intent, even characters he likes (hell, book!Tyrion is explicitly written as a rapist and George loves him), but he did not have anyone but Mushroom say anything like this about Aegon. But Aegon's got a lot of vices, and they start pretty young. If we look at other Targaryens, drinking problems are pretty rampant. Aegon is also called "sullen," and "pouty" but Aegon is in a unique position. He's the eldest son, but his father chose his elder sister as heir, and this is pretty unheard of in this world, an eldest son who gets second son treatment. And unlike other second sons, like, say, Daemon, he doesn't even have an advantageous marriage arranged for him. Daemon might not have liked Rhea or wanted that marriage, but the point of it was to give Daemon holdings of his own and lands he could inherit so that he would not always be beholden to whomever sat the throne. There is just zero provision made for Aegon or his siblings' futures. Instead, Viserys (not Alicent) marries Aegon to his sister, sealing both Aegon and Helaena's fates. It means that when Rhaenyra becomes queen, he and Helaena will be entirely at her mercy, and will basically have to be charity cases, dependent on her continued willingness to support a brother that she hates, who poses a considerable threat to her rule, and his family of dragonriders, all of whom are legitimate unlike her older sons. And book!Rhaenyra is not a great person, the show softens her considerably (I won't get into Rhaenyra in this post because it's not about her, but I have Rhaenyra thoughts too), so there's really no indication that she'd do this. But, in spite of all this, Aegon is not particularly keen to take the throne. He does it because he becomes convinced his family's safety depends on it (and in my opinion, this is true, except taking the throne also, ironically, dooms them. This is a no-win situation for Aegon and his siblings).

Aegon is a reluctant king who is young and inexperienced and he makes mistakes, but he does his best to step up for the sake of his family. And he suffers greatly as a result. There's this idea that gets thrown around a lot that Aegon didn't care for his family, but there's really no suggestion of that in the book. Was he a hands on, present dad? Was he in love with Helaena? I mean, he's an alcoholic teen dad whose father made him marry his thirteen year old sister at sixteen, but he clearly did love his kids. Aegon is devastated by Blood and Cheese. He has to be stopped from immediately taking off on Sunfyre and storming Dragonstone and is forced to wait while Otto keeps trying to win supporters and make alliances. During this period Aegon "drinking and raging." He's upset. But when Helaena falls into depression and can't take care of Maelor due to the guilt of having chosen him to die, Aegon is the one who notices and puts Maelor into Alicent's care. And Otto's lack of decisive action after B&C is what leads to him firing Otto and naming Criston as Hand, and then Aegon joins battle himself and winds up horrifically injured as a result. And Aegon battles back from injuries that really should not have been survivable, which leave him in incredible pain. There are points he's begging for death, the pain is that bad, and no one really thinks he'll survive at first, but he does, he fights back, and when King's Landing falls he and his children are spirited away.

Where does that well of strength come from, if he doesn't have anything or anyone worth fighting for? He shows incredible resourcefulness and resilience, rehabilitates himself and his dragon, kicks milk of the poppy, and infiltrates Dragonstone, Rhaenyra's stronghold. And at what should be his moment of triumph, finally taking Dragonstone's keep, he's injured again by Baela, and his dragon, which he worked so hard to rehabilitate, dies after being wounded in that same battle. Aegon will live out the rest of his life disabled and with chronic pain. By the end he has lost nearly his entire family including both his sons, he's ill, he's drinking again, he's disabled, and he's got an entire clownshow of a council at each others' throats and pulling him this way and that, and still he doesn't give up. Then you get a lot of frankly ableist nonsense (again, mostly from Mushroom) about how Aegon was sitting on dragon eggs and watching other people fuck because he couldn't, there's a strong effort there in Gyldayn's narrative to build up his poisoning as being somewhat justified because Aegon was "not a well man," but it's tragic what happens to him.

Finally, and I might catch some slack for saying this, but in a war that is notably devoid mercy, book!Aegon is one of the few characters that shows any, even when he has every reason to be vengeful. Does he spare Rhaenyra? No. But she would not have spared him at that point either. He does spare Aegon III and Baela, some would argue to his own detriment. He spares Gaemon Palehair, and he grants Trystane Trufyre's last request to be knighted before he dies. His more ruthless actions are also relatively justified in the context of Westeros compared to some of the other completely wanton killings that we see from others in the Dance on both sides. Again, is he a great person? No. He's a impetuous young man with a lot of issues who was not raised for the throne, making some questionable decisions but also showing a lot of bravery, resilience, and yes, mercy.

And you know, just to get it out there, I've been accused of being a book purist and of being oh so above it all by anons before, but it's not that I think the book!Dance is really all that great. F&B has its problems too, and I know that if an adaptation were to follow it completely faithfully, it would not be a very good show. But Aegon is one of the more complex and interesting Dance characters, one of the few who is present and active until the end, and it's a pity that a lot of show watchers and wiki readers have written him off because how the show handled Aegon in season one. (tagging @aifsaath on this in case she'd like to share Aegon thoughts!)

[piperslovebot]

So, I'm gonna be honest about a few things regarding TVD, because a lot of the things I've seen recently are just very confusing and weird to me. One of the main things is the amount of vitriol Caroline has been receiving as of late. It's very clear that the hatred and misogyny towards Caroline is very much rooted in sexism and misogyny. You can try to spin it and try to tell me different all you want, but I see right through the BS. 

Caroline may have had her flaws and faults, but she was nowhere near as bad and horrible and toxic as you and everyone else have made her out to be. I mean, my goodness, you make it sound like she was a terrorist or something, or like if she was just the absolute scum of the earth. So what if Caroline did have fans and defenders back in season one? That's okay and not a bad thing at all. 

I mean, it wasn't an issue for murderous vampires, abusers, and rapists to have fans and supporters defending and justifying their horrible and disgusting actions, but god forbid people could actually identity and relate to a teenage girl, who was simply flawed and confused and actually had growth and development, unlike even Elena herself. 

And comparing Caroline to female characters from different shows doesn't really make for a valid argument either. A lot of the things you say about Caroline and accuse her of being are actually all the things Elena was. Elena was by far the biggest and most self-centered, selfish bitch in the entire show. All the hate she received from fans was very well-deserved and justified, and you won't convince me otherwise, so don't even bother defending that bitch to me. 

Elena dating and sleeping with a rapist/abuser is not even remotely the same thing as Caroline sleeping with Klaus, where at least there it was consensual and Caroline did it on her own free will. And I don't even ship Klaroline, but even I can tell the difference. And if Elena had told Caroline that she needs to get over it and accept it, that would've only made Elena an even bigger cunt and piece of shit than she had already beyond proven herself to be. Disliking Caroline doesn't make what Damon did to her null and void or in any way means that she deserved it and had to get over it.

So, overall, to me, it just comes off like you're just talking out of your asses and making shit up as you go along and making stupid excuses to hate Caroline for reasons that don't exist. Which once again, is all just sexism and misogyny from your end. And you call out Caroline for slut shaming other female characters (which I will say is probably the only thing I didn't agree with and disliked about her character), but you and everyone else in the fanbase has no issue being sexist and misogynistic and slut shaming Caroline or the other girls on the show. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Oh god you Caroline stans are exhausting 😩

1. No one ever called her "toxic" or implied she’s a terrorist. Most of us just call her out on her hypocrisy and her actions. Just because she’s a fan favorite or whatever, doesn’t absolve her of criticism. Y'know the kind that you guys love to give to Elena and Bonnie, but you can’t take valid criticisms about your fave.

2. I don’t have issue with people defending Caroline in season 1. At least when her horrible behavior towards Elena and Bonnie wasn’t justified, and no one who talking about oh so mean they are for excluding her even though Caroline did it to herself by not listening and making snarky comments and in general being an insensitive asshole.

3. Funny how you bring up Elena and Damon not being free will, but also call her a "cunt". And I’ve literally said that if the roles were reversed and she told Caroline to get over her fucking her rapist and get out of her life, people would be saying that Elena should’ve died on wickery bridge. But Caroline is somehow a #girlboss when she does it. Fuck off.

And also the fact that Caroline had the choice and still chose to sleep with Klaus makes her worse than Elena. Because Elena was literally sired and had no free will when it happened. Caroline chose to fuck Klaus, and giggle and brag about it to Kat!Elena.

4. If you talk to me about Caroline’s “growth” one more time, I’ll—

5. It’s also hilarious how you talk about sexism and misogyny, yet call Elena a “bitch”. Also “whiny cry baby”?? Lmao because she cried over actual trauma, but Caroline making a big fuss over a prom dress is funny, huh?

6. As far as I know, nobody has been slut shaming Caroline. If you’re talking about me saying that almost every guy sans Jeremy and Jamie had some sort of “link” to her, is that not true? Hell, she was engaged to Alaric in the later seasons.

You clearly love Caroline and nothing wrong with that, but don’t try to force it on people who don’t kiss her ass and always justify when she did something wrong.

[darklinaforever]

The fact that Aegon is a r*pist (in the series, this strange story from the books about a twelve-year-old girl can hardly be considered r*pe) does not make him a less interesting character, especially in the books (I chose TG after reading them and there his story is amazing). If he's not your cup of tea - okay, but people can love any characters and their feelings are valid, it doesn't mean they justify r*pists or something lol. It's especially strange to hear something like that from a person who likes Darkling, who abused Alina and Kylo, who did the same with Rey. Double standards?

What amazing stories for the Greens ? They don't have an amazing story. Compare to the characters of the Blacks team ?!

Also, yes, fictional characters being rapists can be interesting. It's the truth. Like Kilgrave from Jessica Jones, notably through his extremely frightening power of control. But who exactly is interesting about Aegon II ? One of his descriptions is that he drinks, likes to eat, rapes, no taste for responsibility. He is also a hypocritical character (In the sense if he really said that line about how a brother should not take his sister's throne. Because if he said it, he is a hypocrite for then ardently wanting to keep power for himself even afterwards. Or maybe it's simply an invention of pro-Green propaganda by Eustace to try to soften this asshole, making him even worse than hypocrite). And on top of that, he's not particularly intelligent from what I remember.

And yes, it is certain that this 11 / 12 year old girl, named girl, a sign that she was not considered a woman but a child, completely consented to the fact that a prince superior to her wanted to sleep with her ! No doubt she was fully consenting at last ! Aegon II is also a rapist in the book ! Whether you like it or not !

Oh. And you know the Darkling and Kylo Ren / Ben Solo aren't ? Rapists. (Kylo Ren is even a victim of grooming by Snoke / Palpatine in fact) So no. I don't have double standards. You are just someone who obviously doesn't know how to think.

And yes. The people who are team greens trying to justify the fact that Aegon II is a rapist. I had one try to tell me that Aegon II was either not a rapist at all, or that he had just sexually assaulted servants, which is apparently very commonplace for a prince ! All while trying to say that Daemon is the real rapist without a doubt ! So again, yes. They are trying to justify, or simply accuse another character of being.

And the simple fact that you sent this private message to try to tell me that no Aegon II can hardly be seen as a rapist in the book and that it is only in the series... Something canonically false, while trying blaming me for my love of other characters who aren't rapists, trying to say I have double standards, is an attempt of justification.

Kylo Ren / Ben Solo, he is a character who has been abused and manipulated (groomed) since he was a fetus to be forced to switch to the dark side, eventually obtaining redemption.

Also, Kylo Ren abuses Rey when exactly ? During the so-called torture that Kylo allegedly subjected Rey to in episode 7 ? From 1, they are at war. 2, they are enemies. 3, Rey has information that could be valuable to Kylo's side, it's literally his job to interrogate Rey. And 4, he was gentle and careful with her, avoiding hurting her. So damn, we have to stop with this stupid "torture" scene. What exactly do you think the TRUE torture scene of Poe by Kylo at the beginning of the film was there for ? It served as a contrast to Rey's situation later. Poe was beaten and had his mind searched in an extremely painful manner. Rey was having none of that. Do you want a real scene of torture suffered by Rey ? Snoke in The Last Jedi, or this time, Rey screams in pain like Poe when his mind is invaded. And if you come to point out all the times Kylo and Rey fought, should I remind you that it's war and they're in enemy because they are in different camps ? Just the basic thing that forces them to be against each other ?

For the Darkling, he is a complex / gray character, who basically does bad things with an essentially altruistic goal, namely saving his Grisha people and his Ravka country, and who Leigh Bardugo herself cannot call a pure villain.

Also, like Reylo, Darklina are on opposing sides during a war. Does it make sense that they are not always gentle with each other ? No ?

The link between the character of Aegon II, rapist and 100% villain of the Green team and the two characters that are the Darkling and Kylo Ren/Ben Solo exactly ?!

[sunnydust2003]

So does everyone remember my vent post:

Well i forgot update about this:

1. Remember i tells you about how i so called support Storybored Posion scene, well that's lies tho but they did still call me support rapist because they said this:

"Who talks about fictional characters like they're real and yet uses memes of real life groomers and potential rapists to voice your dislike for them"

Look i don't support creator what they done, i just made meme from fun.

Hell i like show/movies/games and not support creator.

From explame John K or Butch Hartman.

I love Ren and Stimpy and The Fairly Oddparents but creator is fucking awful.

John K: slander other animations because he's a jealous asshole, abusive his animator, grooming two minors.

Butch Hartman: scam his fans, traced art, makes funny of Mary Kay Bergman (original voice actor of Timmy Tuner) passed away.

You can still likes media but don't support creator because they are jerks and creep.

2. They blame me from reblog stuff because i found out, they are proship which i didn't know and it wasn't my fault if you guys didn't put tag Anti Vivziepop or Hazbin Hotel Critique in first place.

3. Possible my favorite is they calls me "Little Robot Chicken Fucker Weirdo" over because i have crush on Scratch (AOSTH).

So what, i have right to crush on fictional characters because at least he's not creepy ass rapist unlike Valentino.

Also it's turned out i was got block and here is finally respone:

"But also unluckliy for you, you just reblogged from a filthy proshipper who also loves Valentino and the proshipper who storyboarded for Posion and i also love Valentino cosplayers and i also wouldn't mind having my O.C fuck Valentino ether because i think both Valentino and Joel Perez and anyone else who loves Valentino are Hot as Hell, baby".

"Having said that, i'm sure you'll promptly remove my post from your shitty blog now since you're about to be blocked from my whorehouse".

After that, they block me.

Bruh i swear Valentino fans are fucking creepy and shame other people have crush on fictional characters and saying "you're weirdo from have crush on fictional characters" but yet, you simp to fucking rapist.

Tbh i'm glad i got block by them because they just whiny little bitch babies.

Thanks from reading this post and stay safe.

[la-mer-etoilee]

TW: direct mentions of sexual assaults in fiction

I've seen many Greek Mythology fans who hate Calypso for keeping Odysseus with her and forcing him to sleep with her against his will for 7 years, taking advantage of Odysseus's vulnerable situation and her superior position as a divinity. That's true, those are terrible things to do, and I'm not overly fond of her either for that reason.

But at the same time I feel like she's hated more than she deserves.

I mean, of course she did terrible and disgusting things to Odysseus, but there are many characters who did terrible things and deserve to be hated for their deeds, and I don't see Calypso as the worst of them. Rape is an everyday activity for so many male characters in the Greek mythology, they take women by force and treat them like objects. Abusing their divine power and authority is another everyday activity for all the Greek divinities. Hermes raped Apemosyne of Crete and neglected her being beaten to death by her own brother who didn't believe her. (She's not widely known, at least in the Greek mythology fandom in my country, but I demand you readers to remember her name. She deserved better and she deserves to be remembered) Athena punished Arachne for shaming Zeus by describing shameful things Zeus had done. Apollo ruined many lives for scratches on his vain pride. Hades kidnapped Persephone and later tricked her to eat the pomegranate so that he can keep her anyway. The Dioscuroi kidnapped and raped their cousins, Hilaeira and Phoebe, who were also the fiancées of their cousin Idas and Lynceus. They're still quite beloved characters, no? Sometimes even a guy like Agamemnon gets focused on his human side, I've seen many Greek Mythology memes right here in Tumblr in which Agamemnon is described to be 'an asshole but with some human sides'. And Calypso is still being called 'cunt' or 'fucking bitch' by quite a lot of people. (Btw I hate people using such disgusting words. If you think calling women 'cunt' or 'bitch' is acceptable when calling gay people 'faggots' or calling black people 'niggers' is absolutely atrocious, go fuck yourself, I don't want to waste my time on debating with you) Some people might say "No one has kept raping their victim for 7 years like Calypso did", then I'd tell them how terrible their minds are, are they going to say that the victims of other rapists should have suffered 7 years as well to have their assaulters blamed as much?

I can't think of this matter out of the context of sex. Women are more hated than they deserve and men are supported more than they deserve, fictional or real.

I'm not saying "Calypso shouldn't be blamed because there are worse characters than her", I do admit she did terrible things. I just want anyone who might read this post to think once more about the double standard of hating Calypso for being a rapist and calling Hades one of the most romantic husband in the Greek Mythology.

[theteasetwrites]

My heart is broken because male fantasies have woven their way into our lives and destroyed female solidarity. The incestious feelings women in writing have scare me. You can be turned on by pretending your boyfriend / favorite character is your dad but never forget that the same men who get hard to that most likely will get hard to your children or their children calling them daddy. It is the pedophillic society we live in that makes it so romanticizing pedophillia isn’t frowned upon, talking about the pain it brings upon this world is what’s wrong. Call me a kinkshamer, call me a prude ( I’m not I wanna suck John wicks cock like there’s no tomorrow, I would lick that man’s asshole) but i don’t care. I hope every woman who is into these despicable things don’t have or are around child because they side with the rapists.

Lots of misunderstanding here I think. It's really not that deep, I promise you.

"Male fantasies have woven their way into our lives and destroyed female solidarity" that's rich coming from someone who is lecturing me, a woman, in my inbox. Women are supposed to stick together, right? Nice that you're accusing me, a woman, of supporting pedophilia (I'm not btw, and I'll get into that too). Isn't it interesting how women will shit on each other for being too "vanilla" in bed, but if they're too kinky or god forbid do anything remotely "taboo" in the privacy of their own bedroom, they still get shit on? Seems like we can't win. But no, definitely blame a woman for that, not men. It's all my fault, as a woman. Calling me "sad" for having my own agency and choosing what I want to write about. Oh, and you're also lucky I am not myself a victim of child sex abuse otherwise you'd feel pretty damn foolish for throwing around the term "pedophilic" so flippantly, I'm sure.

YOU are the one bringing kids into this. If you read my fic (which I am sure you didn't, and if you did, reading comprehension lessons are in order I'm afraid), you would know that there are no children involved and that this is a relationship (not real, might I add) between two consenting adults. And what are they doing? Reader calls Daryl "daddy" and Daryl calls himself that too. I understand if this isn't your thing. I respect that, I get it. I'm only marginally into it anyway, I just like to write shit that I am in the mood for. You don't have to read it, but don't go around saying anyone who enjoys that kind of thing is supporting and standing beside rapists. If that's your opinion whatever, but keep it to yourself because (surprise surprise) people aren't going to take very kindly to that.

If you want to go on this moral crusade, trying to shame people into believing that the use of a single WORD/pet name is harmful to society, I would suggest lecturing people in this fandom who write Carl x Negan, Daryl x Beth, Daryl x Lydia, Daryl x Judith... Why are you coming at me for writing a consenting adult/adult relationship that just happens to involve the use of the word "daddy?" Literally a word. Vibrations.

Where is this energy for, say, noncon/dubcon fanfiction? I can assure you that there are MUCH worse things being written out there. I side-eye certain things that I see, but do I go on anon and act all high and mighty in those writers' askboxes? No, I stay in my lane and I just ignore it because it's not my thing. I also don't think low of those people just because of what they choose to write. If that's what they want to do, that's what they want to do. Not my thing. I don't bother them about it. But you seem to think you're saving the world and being some kind of hero apparently.

I agree that there are many facets of society that romanticize pedophilia, but I don't think one piece of fanfiction shared on Tumblr is going to make any difference in that. I am not the person you need to be lecturing. Why don't you save that energy for actual pedophiles and people who sexualize minors. I am not sexualizing minors.

It is not my job to regulate how you interpret my writing. It is not my job to cater to you, a person who can't differentiate the sexual context of a word from the non-sexual context of it, a person who makes something into something it clearly isn't. Daddy is not inherently sexual, just as any other pet name is not inherently sexual. Yeah, I made it sexual. We could go into the psychology of it but at the end of the day, it's just a goddamn word.

Also love that you're making a joke about eating ass while ranting about something so serious and disgusting as pedophilia in the same breath, and I am the weird one. I don't think what I wrote was pedophilic. If you choose to believe that, that's your prerogative. You sending this to me isn't going to change my mind because I simply disagree with you.

"I hope every woman who is into these despicable things don’t have or are around child because they side with the rapists." Wow, that's some female solidarity right there!

[aerial-ace97]

Aldous Leekie Reframing?

So I’m watching Orphan Black for the third time right now cause it’s amazing and one of my favorite TV shows of all time.  Anyway, I’m becoming convinced that Leekie might have been the best of the Dyad Institute and maybe the best bad guy of the show besides those who clearly or even just effectively swapped sides (AKA Helena and Paul).  Spoilers though so I’ll put my reasoning under the cut.

To start off, I am by no means calling Leekie a good guy.  He was known to kill in order to keep the experiments safe, as in the case of Olivier (to be fair he was a sex offender so I don’t feel too broken up about it and you could argue Leekie hired him but with how many heads Dyad has there simply is no way to know that).  He also supposedly killed Rachel, but oh it turns out no he didn’t, so did he just... burn documents or something.  He did have grandiose ideas about eugenics but that’s... everyone in Dyad and he honestly was mostly just a figurehead while others did the real work.  He also had a creepy relationship with Delphine.  Maybe?  We never got the full picture on how that worked though.  Certainly his status was above her and so you could make a point for work place exploitation but besides that... I’m not really sure what’s creepy about their relationship.  Is it just ageism?  Rachel and Ira are creepy because Rachel LITERALLY raised Ira from four years old.  We know nothing of the history of Aldous and Delphine.  Aldous was... also vaguely an asshole and superior around most people.  Not exactly a crime akin to the monumental violations we see from others on the show.

On the other hand, Aldous was deeply committed to maintaining as little intervention with the subjects as possible, or at the least, the most that we saw (I guess besides Marion Bowles but she was hardly even a character and MK’s revenge list with her named crossed off suggests she was involved with Helsinki so... not a great look for her).  He didn’t try to kill any clones we know of and forwarded the greatest impetus for curing the clones of anyone in the Institute.  When Rachel went out of her way to have one of her sisters murdered and autopsied he was disgusted.  Not to the extent anyone should have been but with more genuine frustration than anyone I can recall in the Institute.

When we compare him to other members of the group there really is no contest with most of them.  Virginia Coady advocated for genocide and rape.  Her cadre of clones, while arguably manipulated, were also rapists.  PT Westmoreland experimented on a child and eventually killed him in cold blood, manipulated everyone around him to do his eugenic dirty work, stole blood from dozens of youth and let them die thinking they had a cure, you name it.  Evie Cho had dozens of babies euthanized when they were ‘defective’.  Ferdinand massacred clones.  And Rachel, for all people try to argue for her redemption and as manipulated as she was, went a long with both Westmoreland and Ferdinand, held back Cosima’s cure, tried to kill her mother and Sarah, did have one clone murdered, manipulated and abused Kira, and was perfectly fine with however many clones had to die.  Sorry Rachel fans but her being manipulated doesn’t absolve her.  Everyone is a product of others.  No upbringing makes Rachel vindicated.

Of course Prolethians fair no better with all of them abusing faith in order to manipulate the murders of clones.  Tomas was abusive, Henrik a rapist, Bonnie a murderer and abusive.  Probably way more crimes for all of them.

There are only two members of Dyad who may have had any chance of being better.  Susan Duncan being one.  But... Susan Duncan was still ok for a while with experimenting on Yanis in the horrible tests he went through.  Speaking up isn’t really stopping it and she should’ve cut and run then and there.  Also had that above creepy relationship with Ira.  I don’t know that she couldn’t have been aware of some of the Helsinki stuff and other things that Dyad got up to as essentially the head of Dyad for a time.

Ethan Duncan is the other contender and yeah for all intents and purposes we’re left to believe he was better than Leekie but he was also... only very briefly ever a member of Dyad.  Certainly not the Dyad we see in the current age.  So I find it difficult to count him.

This is all worthless info of course.  They’re all scheming and cruel eugenicists more interested in profit and science than actual human lives.  But in retrospect of watching through the seasons I feel like Leekie shines as not so bad when we stop and think about it.  Course he might have been.  In an alternate story where the Club sides with him over Rachel in season 2, maybe he becomes the worst of the worst.  But I can only judge by what actually happened.

[lucifers-salty-dickholder]

People who Werent There have no idea that anti-shippers came first. Antis were rude as hell and that created anti-antis, who would later rename themselves into proship/profic.

I literally made this blog because back in 2016 I kept seeing Reylos get treated like absolute dog shit for no reason. Anti-Reylos lied left right and center JUST to make people who shipped the two main characters look bad.

I had NEVER seen someone intentionally edit an interview to MISCAPTION something (also, ableist as fuck!) just to make people think Kylo Ren is a mind rapist. Lying about Rey’s age, Kylo’s age, their familial relationship— literally anything you could imagine to make Reylo “impossible.” (spoiler: it’s canon now).

And that was just the misinformation.

As soon as I started actually looking into it instead of correcting misinformation

And oh my god, the insane racist, sexist, anti-semitic, pro-eugenics bullshit anti-reylos would say?? They’d accuse Reylos of being literal white supremacist Nazis and turn around and call Reylos “house n*****s” (LITERALLY, that one is seared into my brain dude) and degenerates. Like 4 people got doxxed JUST for being BNF Reylos.

I’m proship because of how disgustingly racist, abusive, manipulative, controlling, and frequently dangerous antis are.

The thing is!!! I’m a self shipper!!!! I don’t even care that much about Reylo, I basically started Really Shipping it out of spite of this asshole behavior!!!

"ugh proshippers and antishippers are both sooo immature like shipping discourse is sooo stupid like i'm neitherrrr like why would you even want to engage with that"

I've seen antishippers unironically say and agree with eachother on the following opinions: being a proshipper means people should be allowed to bully you. proshippers make them believe in eugenics. proshippers all belong in jail. being a proshipper means people can send you death and rape threats because "you deserve it". being a proshipper should be basis for taking away someone's human rights or at least put them on a watchlist.

I'm not a proshipper because i care too much about fictional ships, I'm a proshipper because antishippers sent my friends threats for liking certain ships. I'm a proshipper because i believe i shouldn't have my human rights taken away or be bullied or in jail just for liking a fucking ship. If you believe ship discourse is stupid and immature, then you probably believe people shouldn't be thrown in jail for it.

[olivereliocorcordium1983]

I can't believe im even doing this but here we go🙄 i am perfectly aware of Timmy being in this pic with Taylor Russell. I do not deny this at all i am fully aware that Timmy has and will be put with other costars ect. HOWEVER,

When I came into this fandom it was because of call me by your name, it was because of ELIO and OLIVER, ARMIE and TIMMY came afterwards because of the beautiful relationship they have together. Whether it is as friends or more than that I really don't care as long as both of them are happy that is all I care about.

So when I do this👇I am doing it because One: I WANT TO and because I personally ship them together and are perfectly capable of separating the characters from the actors.

Two: my IG is for my stories, so there are people who want to see these two together in whatever senario be it: DD/LB, husbands, fuck buddies, what have you even if it isn't my thing personally, I do it for them because I was a musician and in college they say, you give the audience what they want. And that is what I am doing.

So if the charmies want to see them paired up a billion times with their different characters from their different movies im going to do it. And do so proudly!

I am here for THEM not you overly butt hurt haters who want to spit you negativity everywhere and want to be little tiddy babies because oh my god we pair Timmy up with fucking Armie Hammer whose a "cannibal, rapist, blah blah, blah, 🙄 sit down and shut the fuck up. And go somewhere else with that bullshit please.

There are much more important shit going on in the world than a bunch of overly enthusiastic fanboys and fangirls talking everyday about actors they don't know personally. So if you don't like the shit that I post then go somewhere else, im an adult who writes whatever the fuck I want and who is escaping my own rl through my stories because im going through a very hard time.

And trying to figure out how in the world i am going to live without someone whose life meant more to me than your stupid petty comments!

Grow the fuck up! Stop coming into the damn Charmies space and trying to get a rise out of them, its not going to work! They don't care for you stop trying to get their attention like kimber from nip tuck who wont let go. Move on! They get it they see you, now go away!

my give a fuck button about your little issues with Charmie doesn't exist for me. I dont give a damn about how pissed you are about lillothee not being a thing anymore, I dont care for your words about "Timmy is with Taylor in that picture, not with that cannibal abusing asshole" I truly don't give any fucks because the part of me that did, officially died along with my grandma.

So seriously if you don't like what i do, say, post and all that other tiny non important crap then fucking block me. You don't want to see Timmy and Armie together fine. Block me.

If you hate me as a person then fucking block me. Because I have more important things to worry about now like how im going to get my job up and running, taking care of my grandpa, dealing with my own emotions and my own life so that when everyone else dies I can survive. Writing my own will ect.

You know, the things that actually matter than sitting behind a computer all day and literally putting all your damn energy into that hate bubble you got going on and trying to get validation from people who dont give two shits about you. Because you hate your own life so much you don't know how to be productive enough to want to change it and be happy for yourself.

That is what i care about right now, not a bunch of strangers who can't let other people just live their goddamn life and mind their own fucking business and find their own happiness.

Not a bunch of strangers who dont have the fucking balls or big enough balls to take themselves off of anon and show their faces to the people who they intentionally go into their dms, their asks, just to put their two cents into an opinion that no one truly gives a fuck about.

No people with actual differences of opinion who are respectful about it. Im not talking to you.

But you fuckers who cant be an adult and have adult conversations with these charmies, go away go play in your sad little sandbox leave the adults alone.

Thank you for coming to my ted talk, mic drop, ✌️the 🖕 out!❤️🧿

[cowchickenbeefpork]

like. If you’re gonna claim stolas is a coercive rapist do not fucking say blitz has also done wrong to stolas in the relationship your argument is saying that the victim is also toxic but not as much in a abusive raping relationship which is. Not something you should argue analysis wise for anything! Sure you can say they’ve been a asshole too but that’s just the, being a imperfect victim, you can admit a character does not fall under stereotypes given to rape survivors and still say they aren’t in the wrong in the relationship.

if you wanna say stolas and blitz fucking is dubious, just say that. Coercion is such a fucking stronger word than a bit dubious. Why can’t you just stand your ground when it comes to this reading of the work why do you have to say well he’s been hurt too YOURE CALLING HIM A RAPIST STAND YOUR GROUND OR SWITCH TO SAYING ITS DUBIOUS

some of yall are the biggest fucking cowards when it comes to intercepting Stolas from helluva boss as a rapist it’s crazy

[hereliescorri]

On Barbarian and hating things

I found this movie deeply disappointing, but also everyone is loving it so I don’t want to yuck everybody’s yum by going off about it. But that just means I can’t talk about it. And then I realized, wait, I have a blog no one reads that I made specifically just to talk about and remember my thoughts, feelings and experiences.

So yeah.

This movie was disappointing as fuck. And when I saw it in the theater, I REALLY tried to convince myself I was enjoying it — a thing I do when, a) I was super excited about something and don’t want to acknowledge I had a bad time, and b) know that not liking it is going to put me at odds with other people. Despite how it may come across, it makes me deeply uncomfortable to hate things that other people like. Or, to be more precise, to hate things other people like when I don’t feel like we can talk about it. The cool mix of neurodivergence and childhood trauma from an abusive household means that I feel the need to explain myself so I don’t seem like an asshole… but most people find it asshole-ish if you expand on why you don’t like a thing. Then they feel like you’re telling them they’re dumb or wrong, when really it’s an attempt at explaining your feelings. And that whole childhood thing makes me super paranoid about my feelings, too, since mine were never valid, and having any would get me yelled at or punished. So, bit of a double-edged sword. I feel the need to explain myself when I hate something so I can be understood, but I also think everyone hates me and is mad at me if I explain myself when I hate something.

All that to say, the whole movie I had that sinking feeling that I wasn’t having a good time, but deeply NEEDED to so I wouldn’t have to tell everyone I hate another movie they like.

But it was ass.

The lead makes the dumbest decisions possible at every single point in this movie. You get one or two bad decisions to move a plot along. If the plot relies on a character always doing the thing no person would actually do, FOH. There is no peril in this movie that Tess does not cause herself. And once I’m at the point where I’m like, this person has chosen poorly too many times, I do not care whether they live or die. I remember there being a moment where I crossed over into that, where I was just like, “Fuck’s sake. Kill her then.”

The movie tries to say something about men and misogyny I guess, but it feels thown in. Like they wrote a movie and then were like, oh wait, everything needs a blatant message now. It’s about… rape culture? But it’s not about rape culture. While Justin Long’s character is a vile casual rapist who gets his comeuppance, the monster in the film is a victim of generations of rape and incest that leave her deformed and unable to speak. We’re supposed to see her as grotesque. The sagging breasts, the barren gums, the bulbous belly. How terrifying, the body of a severely abused and disabled woman! (I’ve seen The Shining and IT btw, so you’re gonna hafta go harder than that to shock me) What’s worse, we get the classic rape reversal, where we get catharsis from seeing a rapist be sexually violated by having her gross tit shoved in his mouth. We’ve been criticizing movies for the casual sexual assault of men for ages, and yet here it is going all Wedding Crashers on us.

As a side note, I find it very corny that the movie is called Barbarian and all she can say is “bar bar bar bar.” If you’re familiar with the etymology of the word barbarian, it’s said to have come from the ancient Greeks not being able to understand foreigners and thinking their languages sounded like “bar bar bar bar.” Perhaps we’re supposed to take something out of that about how she’s just misunderstood, but I suspect they just thought they were being clever. After all, I know that because I’m a nerd. I can’t imagine they expect the audience to make that connection.

Anyway, there’s also some kind of commentary about urban blight here that is completely stranded, with a little ACAB side quest as well. And while cops and urban blight are bad, they have nothing to do with anything in this movie. I suppose it just gives a reason why this woman would be able to wander the neighborhood. And to let us know this is happening, we’re introduced to an expository Black man; a wise and all-knowing homeless dude who exists solely to tell us what’s going on and then be unceremoniously ripped to pieces in a jump scare. Booooo. Not here for it.

In that scene we’re also told that she’s not the worst thing down there, which leads to anticipation of an even bigger big bad. What kind of showdown could we be in for?? None. No showdown. No bigger big bad. Turns out the abusive rapist dad is down there, but he’s on his deathbed, and instead of being a threat, as soon as we meet him, he kills himself. Okay? Again, I can maybe see what they were going for — the guy who made the monster is worse than the monster. But we’re promised escalation, and it never comes. If he’d been dead already, it would have changed nothing about the movie. This is also why the flashback feels like an afterthought, and one that doesn’t work. Sure, I can get behind the idea that our monster is misunderstood, and she’s become this way as a result of horrific abuse. But this movie doesn’t have the tone to pull that off. Everything is framed as funny and/or shocking. There is nothing in the tone until the very last scene to even vaguely humanize the monster. I have seen only one person come out of this movie talking about receiving a moving message from it. The vast majority of responses are HOLY FUCK THAT WAS INSANE! The tone of the movie tells you you should be grossed out, you should cringe, you should laugh. So the idea that it’s saying something profound about abuse and the unheard is just silly. Especially since she still gets ganked in the end.

I think the best execution of any of the themes in the movie is when AJ throws Tess off the tower to save himself. That is his character. That is a perfect encapsulation of all the cancel culture dweebs who claim to be very sorry and to have changed and then are mad when everyone doesn’t take them back with open arms. It’s absolutely what a guy like him would do, and for a movie to go there is both surprising and hilarious. You can’t help but startle laugh. Why wasn’t this the focus of the movie? Why explain the monster? Why try to tackle a half dozen other social issues? Why do we even need Tess’s job interview? Simply to go, “Oh, white people. Always scared of the city?” So, so much unnecessary message that bogs down the movie.

And all so we can watch a severely abused woman die. Pass. The hardest of passes.

So when the movie ended I was like, “It’s fine! Three stars!” But I was lying to myself for all the reasons I outlined above. I don’t think Barbarian is good or fine. I think it’s shit. And I think it’s okay that I think it’s shit. And it’s okay that it worked for other people. But when you’re used to people being dicks about disagreement, or feeling like you’re attacking them personally, or perhaps worst of all, dimissing you outright, it can feel like it’s not okay. Probably some film PhD anger lingering there, too, with dudes constantly telling me I was wrong or had childish taste for not liking their artsy bullshit.

Having a podcast where I can disagree with someone has been helpful and therapeutic in some ways, and I’ve got a wider circle of people I feel like I can chat about these things with without judgment. Still, sometimes I worry that everyone just sees me as some know-it-all who has to be right, and that’s not the character I’m trying to play.

[me4ml]

Why don't you like Maribat? Why do you think it's a spite or salt ship?

This is presumably because of my Adrigaminette post or the whole Maribat being on the ship list thing.

Quick disclaimer: if you read/ship/write/like Maribat, cool! This is not an attack. This is me answering why I, personally, do not like it. It’s tagged anti, and salt, so it should be filtered. Please don’t harass me over it.

Another note before we start: a lot of what I’m about to write is based on what I’ve read, fic wise or meta, and I blocked off the Maribat tag and fandom a long time ago. It may have changed over there-I doubt it, and I have zero desire to go and look-but this is based on what I’ve seen and read about.

There are, principally, three reasons I can’t stand Maribat, why I think it’s a spite/salt ship.

1). I don’t like Damian Wayne.

2). I don’t like how Damian and the DCU are written in Maribat.

3). Maribat is a mutated salt fic.

If you want to see my reasons why, the rest is under the read more.

1). I don’t like Damian Wayne.

Damian’s not just my least favorite Robin, ranking behind any of the others who have born the name. He’s my least favorite Batfam sidekick overall.

Part of this is his introduction, where he’s a violent, murderous, arrogant, entitled, snotty little brat of a thug. Lest we forget, one of his first acts is to go out, kill a guy, cut off his head, stuff a grenade into the decapitated head’s mouth, and try to blow up Tim. This is his introduction! There are a number of other occasions, including how he treats Jon, his best friend, and the rest of his siblings.

Another part is that he believes that he deserves to be Robin simply because he’s Bruce’s son, and therefore has the blood right to be Robin, to become Batman, and damn anyone else, who are all pretenders. Doesn’t matter that those characters might have a right to become Robin, or the future Batman, he’s the bio son, he deserves it!

Additionally, Damian feels.....not unnecessary, but repetitive, in his actions/characterization. There are other characters who can perform pretty much the same way for whatever storyline is necessary, without including Damian.

Trained by an abusive family to be the best, as an assassin and warrior? Cassandra.

A killer who breaks the main rule of his mentor, which causes tension and strain in the family? Jason.

Incredibly intelligent and talented? Tim.

Damian isn’t unique in what he does, and while that can make him an interesting character, it can also make the focus on him unnecessary.

As well, so much of Damian’s actions and motivations feels like he gets away with stuff, in-universe, because he’s Bruce’s biological son, and so Bruce gives him too much slack, and out-universe, because the writers let him/the fans will defend him. He gets woobified, or leather pantsed. Which leads to:

2). I don’t like how Damian and the DCU are written for Maribat.

For all his (numerous) faults, when written well, Damian can be an interesting character. For example: How does he deal with being deeply insecure? By putting on a mask of arrogance and overconfidence.

Some more examples: How does Damian act like an actual child, when he’s never had a childhood? How can he be a hero, if he’s been trained to be a killer? Can he ever catch up to his siblings, or will he feel like they’re always better than him?

Damian’s sense of being Batman’s son, of being the heir to the Cowl, slams right up against the idea of the Batfam: that there are people who have just as much of a right to call Batman their father/father figure, people who are just as talented and skilled and capable as Damian himself is, if not more. Watching Damian develop, when he’s written right, is actually enjoyable; mainly because when it’s done right, it shows Damian actually progressing and growing, becoming more of a person, with friends and interests. Most times, seeing Damian with his pets can be adorable, same with when he hangs out with Jon.

Is he still a brat? Still sometimes a bit too much of a Demon, an al-Ghul? Yes, but that’s always going to be part of him, and as long as he’s shown to try and grow, or gets called out on that, it’s less of an issue (There’s a completely different rant to be written about how DC likes to chuck character development or backstory into the trash when it suits them for a new run. Damian gets hit with this, as does Tim, or they get handed the idiot/conflict ball, but not the space for it).

Maribat hurls this all out the window. Damian’s bad traits are all “fixed” offscreen-he’s developed, matured, gotten better, whatever you want to call it. It’s basically a writer’s hand wave to make Damian into the character who will be the lead of the story, perfectly suited for his main role of being Marinette’s boyfriend and utterly devoted to her every whim and will. He’s enchanted by her at first glimpse, and defends her against everyone who hates her, because no one can understand her like he can!

Uh, what? This is not Damian Wayne. Even at his best, he’s no broody boy, pulled from his “dark path” by the love of a gentle girl. He’s a Jerk with a Heart of Gold-emphasis on the Jerk. There’s a reason his nickname usually involves “Demon.” Is Damian trying to get better? Yes. But even then, he’s not the type to immediately fall in love. He takes a while to warm up to people, for them to earn his trust, and Marinette would not be like that?

Let’s say that Robin is in Paris for a case, he runs into Ladybug and Chat, and after they explains what’s going on, Robin gives them a stare over his mask, and goes “TT! What a worthless hero, I would have caught him already.” LB and Chat would probably want to deck him, and that’s before he keeps talking.

Same with if Damian transfers to the class, or they meet on a field trip to Gotham. Damian’s not gonna care about some random French teenagers on a tour, or if he was transferred he’s gonna be trying to figure out why his father sent him to Paris, and be focused on the mission, not making friends.

Of all of the Robins, the ones that would be the most likely to capture Marinette’s interest would be Dick or Tim, not Damian. He would remind her too much of Chloe, as Damian, and as Robin, he would be dismissive of Ladybug’s abilities, which would absolutely piss her, and Chat Noir, off.

In characters that aren’t Damian, no one seems to be written properly over in Maribatland. One huge example is that Marinette is so beloved, so pure, that she can make any character fall in love with her, and reform by her pure goodness, including a fic where the Joker-THE JOKER!-becomes her “Uncle J,” and pranks Lila on her behalf.

Uh-huh. Sure. Completely and totally something that one of the biggest, most sadistic twisted, notorious villains in pop culture would do. Maribat winds up worshipping the ground that Marinette walks on, cause she’s “Teh best evar!”

Which then leads to my third and final point:

3). The whole Maribat concept is a mutated salt fic.

Most of the themes you’ll find in Maribat? You will find in nearly every salt fic.

Maybe my biggest issue with the whole Maribat idea is that it doesn’t feel like a proper crossover, which, at their best, explore how characters from one universe and their rules would interact with characters from another universe, and the rules of that one. Putting ML and DC together is a rich opportunity to play with concepts in both worlds!

And yet, it’s mainly used to bash ML characters who the writers despise, predominantly Adrien, Alya, and Lila, with members of the class thrown in depending on feeling, and potentially even Marinette’s parents! The only “good” ML characters are the ones who are on Marinette’s side, usually Luka, Kagami, a Chloe who for some reason has been redeemed and is now Marinette’s best friend, and whatever members of the class the writer decides to throw in there.

You’ll notice it’s not called “MiracuBat”, or LadyBat and Bat Noir-it’s MariBat. It’s meant as a focus on Marinette, making her-the hero of the Miraculous Ladybug franchise, someone in-story in story who is incredibly smart and talented and the leader of her team, future Guardian-even more awesome.....by beating down everyone else around her.

Marinette is simultaneously treated as an beaten-up, beaten-down walked-on carpet, and the best person to ever exist ever, go who only needs a group of new, different, better people to recognize that and save her from the clutches of those greedy and ungrateful assholes! That doesn’t include the fics where she’s the unknown child of a superhero or supervillain, making her even more special.

It’s Chameleon salt, class salt, with pointy ears and a cape on.

Some specific examples.

Adrien: Adrien is a spineless doormat who prioritizes Lila over Marinette, or an entitled bastard sexual harasser, only fixated on Ladybug, or even both. Sometimes it’ll get worse, as Adrien will threaten or abandon Marinette if she steps off of his “high road,” and Chat will be a budding rapist, stalking or capturing Marinette after he’s learned she’s Ladybug, while ignoring her prior to that. He will, of course, have his ring stripped and handed off to Damian, who is the “true” soul of Destruction and so therefore a “perfect match” to Marinette’s Creation soul. Occasionally it will be Jason, or Tim, or Dick, but the key thing is that it’s not Adrien!

While Damian’s issues are magically fixed, Adrien gets no such courtesy. Adrien has been abused, just like Damian, and while Damian’s abuse is more extensive and extreme, abuse is abuse. If anything, if Damian met Adrien, he would probably see another abused kid, and want to be his friend/have his “adopt stray person!” Instincts go off. I can much more imagine Damian dragging a bewildered Adrien into the Batcave and yelling “Father I’ve found another one for you to adopt!” than I can Damian immediately hating Adrien, or Chat, simply for breathing.

We never see Clark taking Adrien under his wing, or Bruce, or any of the other Batfam; nor any of the other Justice Leaguers. We never see Selina try to fight Bruce over the kid, because he’s cat-themed, and Selina can train him, this one’s hers Bat, get off!

Adrien’s never treated as a kid, or given actual development. A major complaint among salters is that Adrien is treated as perfect and never develops, and in fic, rather than developing him, Adrien either remains static, with his flaws narratively exploded, or is developed negatively. He’s there to be beaten up on and punished by the writers, if not actually physically beaten up by characters in the fic.

Alya: the not-so-good friend, the cheap excuse for a journalist, the awful person who abandons Marinette for Lila and her “connections.” Never mind that Alya was Marinette’s friend from the beginning, or that Marinette’s chosen her multiple times for a Miraculous. One instance of questioning Marinette about Lila, and Alya’s a backstabbing bitch.

Maribat treats Alya as neglectful, bossy, domineering and submissive at the same time to Marinette and Lila respectively, and as a journalist, the worst of the worst. She’s played as a two-bit paparazzo, and once again, the DCU is used to punish her. We don’t see Alya get mentored by Lois or Clark-indeed, if they notice her, it’s with disdain or disappointment. Often, they’re crushing her under their heel, calling her not only a bad journalist, but a bad friend/person. This forgetting, of course, that Alya runs her blog as a hobby so far, she’s only a teenager, and that she’s had Marinette’s back against Chloe and Lila.

The Class: the dupes or allies as needed. Class salt levels depend on what the writer needs. If they’re pro-class, they’re all on Marinette’s side, aside from Alya Adrien and Lila. Chloe, for some ungodly reason, is “redeemed” nigh instantaneously, and often will become Marinette’s best friend, if that isn’t Kagami already. Kagami will drop Adrien like a wet tissue, never trying to reconcile him with the clas, or encourage him to stand up for himself, or if she does, Adrien, of course, will not listen.

If the writer is anti-class, whoo boy. Openly mentally, emotionally, physically abusive to Marinette, the worst gang of people you would ever have the displeasure of meeting, they all need to be in Arkham.

We never see any of the class make friends with the Batfam, the Titans, Young Justice-unless they’re on Marinette’s side, of course. There’s no Alix stopping Selina at the Louvre, for instance, or Max hanging out with Babs. It’s all based on how Marinette is treated as to whether or not the class is portrayed as being worse than the worst of the Rogues Gallery.

Wrapping it all up, Maribat has made me dislike the entire concept of a DC/ML crossover.

Even if someone had written an non-salt, in-character crossover, I don’t know if I would read it, simply because the well has been that poisoned.