#i would believe in bats getting redemption for jason more if this was like a set series with an end. same as ever ither character.

[daisybell-on-a-carousel]

The final scene with Jason was fun, poor Dick never did properly teach him how to train surf 😔

[yuinterrobangapologist]

So: different AU ideas I really like.

Black-Cantonese Tim (inspired by Titans) (adopted by the Drakes)

Carrie Kelley in main Batfam

Black Carrie (inspired by Gotham Knights)

Black Selina (inspired by the guilty pleasure Catwoman movie)

Lady Shiva redemption arc

Tim and Damian being close enough in age that Damian is taller than him as kids

Over 100 Alfred (so he's a WWII vet, and is in such good health for his age none of the kids actually know that or would believe him if he told them)

Bigender Tim (projection (affectionate))

Tiff Fox as Batgirl (probably coming in after Duke is Signal, and being around the same age as Carrie, the 6th Robin?)

Once Tim's 18, and Jon as been aged up to 18, after they date happily and break up with Bernard/Jay, they get together and there is drama with the two Robins and two Superboys (I prefer straight Kon is surprised Tim didn't go for him, and pan Damian is devastated that Jon is out of his age range now)

Talia is...gray. Not an evil rapist, but also not without flaws. Is able to be on peaceful terms with the Bats, not quite as peaceful as Hood, but definitely not a rogue herself. Shiva/Talia (this just became your new OTP after reading this)

Barbara is still disabled, but can stand up long enough to be Batgirl in a pinch. Like, she can regularly stand up to grab things and stuff, but in too much pain to walk everywhere, and if she needs to she can get up and fight, but she'll be fighting in pretty intense pain. (Me projecting my fibro onto her (affectionate))

Jason does stop killing (based on many other universes, but especially the Gotham Knights game)

Tim is a shareholder of Wayne Enterprises (which is canon), and is involved in some decisions, but is instead more prominent in The Martha Wayne Foundation, the Wayne Family's charity organization.

Bruce has a comical number of degrees that the public just like...doesn't know about. Like, completely impossible number. Like 20 Master's in everything from like Marine Biology to Sculpting to Programming to Aerospace Engineering to like Library Science. And like, multiple M.D.s in like Forensic Psychiatry, Forensic Pathology, and Pediatrics (to take care of his kids of course).

Again, not purely headcanon since this has a basis in canon, but Janet is quite sweet to Tim. But I AU you here as also being shrewd and competitive, a vicious businesswoman. Jack's level of abuse is at least as it is in canon where he throws things and is implied to have hit Tim before. Whether it stays at that level or goes beyond varies for me on the story.

Tim's parents go into witness protection rather than ever dying (inspired from the New 52) (this could play into adopted Tim, with Tim not even being his birth name)

Duke is a mix of the shy, reserved kid we see in WFA and the silver-tongued ruthlessly confident vanguard we see in Robin War.

Part of Duke's power is brain processing power. He apparently can see light as it moves, and no normal brain could comprehend that kind of information, so logically, his brain should have the processing speed of a supercomputer, probably way beyond his current level of knowledge or even his impressive intellect, so like, if he memorized the formulas, he'd be able to do complex calculus in his head fairly intuitively. With training of course, this would be something he notices later on and has to work to make it useful.

Bette Kane being active in the Batfamily, instead of solely in the Teen Titans. As the Batgirl before Babs, before leaving the vigilante business, and coming back part time as Hawkfire.

Dick only becomes a cop as undercover work to expose corruption, maybe even works in Internal Affairs (though I do like the idea of him being in an SVU for a little bit, but again, this is a temporary thing entirely), but leaves and instead becomes a Defense Attorney (inspired by Earth Two)

NOT an AU, but actually based on canon that DC fucking ignores, but Damian and the al Ghuls have East Asian heritage, as well as Kashmiri heritage (based on Nanda Parbat based on the real world Nanga Parbat, in Kashmir). Generally, a complex blend of Urdu, Burmese, Mandarin, Persian, and Arabic, (since a family-run group that old with still living relatives who are hundreds of years old and new members joining the League frequently and high ranking members from all over Asia teaching their culture would essentially make the League a sort of...small ethnic group itself)

Talia is older than human, probably around 200 or so (actually I think this either is or was canon at one point)

Cass is not invincible. She takes hits and gets disarmed in Batgirl all the time, so why she's been fanoned as being completely untouchable in fights is beyond me. However, because of her poor reading and computer skills, she's actually not a very competent homicide detective at the moment. But she is making progress at a rate consistent with her intelligence and work ethic.

Luke still does MMA professionally and is like...Bellator world champion or something. He's also a U.S. veteran (inspired by the DCAMU), and I'm saying Coast Guard then Navy Seal. I have more exact details about that in my head, but in general, I'm saying he was dishonorably discharged after refusing order to take a shot or something a building with children in, and now is one of those "Veterans against U.S. militarist imperialism" guys.

Essentially, all of the Bats' strengths and weaknesses put them around the same level (with the exception of Bette, who is part time, Carrie and Tiff who are brand new), with the sole exception being Dick, Babs, Selina, and Bruce, are who above them, and largely equal, however Bruce's devotion to spending every waking moment planning things and constantly improving tech and stuff means he's in practice above either of them

Bruce was in the FBI for a little before deciding to become Batman (this was canon before the New 52). I'm thinking he bounced around a little, in Crimes Against Children, the Bioterrorism Taskforce, Behavioral Science Unit, and Financial Crimes. Again, I love a Bruce who is ridiculously accoladed (so his kids find these things out later and are flabbergasted)

The thing is, none of these contradict each other. All of these could exist in the same universe. But trying to cram every detail into...there would need to be a fucking soliloquy of exposition in every single chapter. So what I think I'd do is use the first "chapter" just to say: "Here's the things in this universe. Not going to explain it all, just know these things. Enjoy that." I mean, some of that could be "show don't tell" in its own story, like Duke learning about his processing powers or Tim and Jon getting together. But yeah, these are my tastes.

[folk-ever-lore]

Abandoned

“Are you kidding me?” She yelled, finding it hard to believe that someone could really be that stubborn. But Bruce Wayne always did find a way to surpass expectations didn’t he? “I know you don’t like me and all that, which is your call, but those are your sons. Are you really going to abandon them like that?”

“I’m not abandoning them,” Bruce hissed, angry spitting from his words. It was clear to anyone in the room, even if it was just the two of them at that point in time, that he couldn’t stand her. Although he’d actually had decent reasoning to hate her in the past, he had no such reasons now. If he could get on with Harley and Ivy then he could get on with her. “You’re a villain. You’re just telling me this in order to distract me so that you can go through with another one of your plans.”

“Goddammit,” Marinette yelled, disbelief showing evidently on her face. But he wasn’t looking, didn’t care. All he cared about was himself. As always. How anyone could ever remotely consider him a good parent was beyond her. She was very glad that Dick had taken on the role of parenting Damian, because hell if Bruce had ever done it. “In case you haven’t noticed I’m dating Damian, one of your sons, one of the good guys in this scenario, and I haven’t hurt anyone who wasn’t one of your rogues in over a year. You’re just too stubborn to see past your big head to see that your kids need help.”

He shook his head. She’d made false attempts to change in the past, only to later betray them and he wasn’t going to start believing her and her lies now. All that would do is put him at risk for further betrayal. “No,” he said harshly, typing on his computer, doing nothing in particular just to show that he didn’t need to pay attention to her. To show that he was the superior one out of the two of them, that he didn’t need to listen to her. “This is what you do. You lie, you gain our truth, you betray us, you steal and the cycle starts again. I can’t trust that you won’t do the same again now. And I can’t believe you’d come up with such a ridiculous lie. My sons would never put themselves in a situation where we were the only ones that would have the power to save them.”

“So you’re not going to help me save them then?”

“I will not support you in anything that you will use to betray us once again with.”

“I thought you were all about giving your villains chances for redemption.”

“I am,” he agreed. “Just not when they’ve exploited those chances as many times as you have.

“Fine then,” she hissed, venom dripping from her words, begging to kill, to attack. “I’ll save them myself.”

***

She may have been anxious to go and recover her friends, and her boyfriend, but that didn’t mean she didn’t have common sense. She had to take the time to formulate a plan rather than rushing in immediately. Her first plan of action was to head down to her nearest safe house and use the resources she had there to help her search and narrow down where they could be.

And who had them. But she could guess who that was though, there was only one person who’d semi-recently broken out of Arkham and hated their entire family more than anyone else did. Who else would it be but the Joker? No one else would dare kidnap the Bat Family, or at least not that many members of it at one time.

She grabbed anything she thought she may need to rescue them, including but not limited to some of the guns Jason had left over from one of the he’d visited to get away from Bruce (those would certainly be helpful if she wanted to shoot Bruce is he ever showed up), a spare miraculous to wear (but hopefully not to use) incase something happened to the cat one and some bataarangs that she totally hadn’t stolen from the Batcave. She also decided to pick up some of Damian’s daggers that he’d left with her in case anything ever happened to his main stash.

After that she sat down at her computer and began her work on finding her friends; she wouldn’t leave Damian, or Tim, or Jason, or Dick at the hands of the Joker - not like Bruce had. Especially not after what happened last time Jason had been locked in a warehouse with the psychopath. She didn’t have much time to spare, and she wasn’t willing to waste a second of it.

First, she looked into the many warehouses in Gotham. It was the classic villain place to hold hostages, she’d certainly held a few hostages in a warehouse before. There were a few Joker branded ones that he tended to have used a lot in the past, but after quickly checking those over Marinette soon decided that he would have found a whole new place to store the bats he’d managed to collect today, so that he’d have more time to play with them.

After what felt like far too long, she finally found where the Joker had taken them. A warehouse on the east side of Gotham. It had been abandoned for the last couple of years, but every so often some street kids would find it and use it for a bit, so she’d placed cameras inside so that she could help any that made their way to the warehouse.

She may have been considered one of Gotham City’s Rogues, but that didn’t mean she was a completely horrible person (even if Bruce couldn’t see that). After all, she’d been a hero for years, she couldn’t have done that if she didn’t care about helping people.

It was even one of the main reasons why she’d ended up being classed as one of the many rogues of Gotham. She’d moved to the city in order to make a difference and help the people that lived there, but when she’d tried Batman had only told her that he didn’t accept help from outside heroes. So she’d started using the cat miraculous instead of her normal ladybug earrings, started going by Lady Noire instead and stole what she could from the obnoxiously rich and gave to the street kids who needed the money to survive.

Of course, over the past couple of years, she’d used some of the money she’d stolen on herself, but that’s all Bruce focused on when he was making her out to be the bad guy. Honestly, it hadn’t even been that much. Only enough to support her in the months when she wasn’t getting as many commissions.

Not that the oh so great Batman had ever noticed what she’d really been up to, all he’d cared about was that she was a thief in ‘his’ city. His kids had figured out what she had been doing though, and then soon became her friends. Or, in Damian’s case, became her boyfriend -  much to Bruce’s disgust.

With the information she needed to go save her friends, Marinette called her transformation, grabbed her supplies and headed over to the warehouse as fast as possible.

She couldn’t be too late. She couldn’t be. She refused to be too late. She refused to be.

If she was too late … she didn’t want to think about what could have happened in the time it had taken her to find them without the superior resources that Bruce kept locked away in the Batcave just because he was a controlling, prejudiced asshole.

She wouldn’t be too late. She wouldn’t be.

She’d arrived. But was she too late?

The door to the warehouse had obviously been locked, but she had no time to waste trying to undo it using the ‘proper’ Batman approved techniques. “Cataclysm!” She muttered as quickly as she could in order to avoid the Joker noticing, calling her power to destroy the door as quickly and efficiently as possible.

As the door crumpled into dust, she moved to a blind area in the cameras to transform and recharge Plagg. “Eat quickly,” she begged the kwami, “we don’t have much time to spare.” And soon enough Lady Noire was ready to rescue those that had been abandoned by the oh so great Batman.

She didn’t exactly sneak in as the collapse of the door had caused a bit of noise but she was as quiet as she could be, but it seemed like it was safe to say that if the Joker hadn’t really noticed her at all, he wasn’t paying too much attention to anything but his captives.

Dick, Jason, Tim and Damian had all been tied up and hung from the ceiling with their bodies tied with rope, so that they didn’t stand a chance of escape on their own. That didn’t matter anymore. She was going to save them, unlike Bruce.

Marinette hated to think of how the Joker could have gotten his hands on all of them. What had that mad man done to those she loved? How had he hurt them? She was going to kill him (and Bruce) if she got the chance.

She used the darkness of the miraculous to almost blend into the shadows so that she could get closer to her friends without alerting the ignorant Joker that she was there.

“Damian,” she whispered as she got closer using the baton provided by the miraculous to carry her voice upwards, quiet enough so that only he could hear her. “I’m going to get you down from there but I need you ready to land safely and be ready to fight while I get the others down. Can you do that?”

There was as big a nod as he could manage while tied up without alerting the Joker.

“Excellent.”

She brought the baton back down so that she could hold onto the end before elongating it to  use it to propel herself upwards, to Damian’s height up in the air. Pulling one of her boyfriend’s daggers from her suit, she used it to cut the rope holding him up. Once free, Damian slid down her baton in order to make a safer descent to the floor and pulled one of his daggers from his utility belt and made a start on attacking the Joker.

Meanwhile, Marinette focused her attention on freeing the others. First Tim, then Jason and finally Dick. When she moved onto Dick, it was easy for her to tell that he’d been injured the most, probably because he’d been focusing on protecting the others than himself like usual,  so she made sure to keep hold of him as she freed him, and brought him down towards the ground by changing the height of her baton once his ropes had been cut.

“You’re safe,” she repeated to Dick when he looked at her with a confused look on his face. “You’re safe, Tim’s safe, Jason’s safe, Damian’s safe. You’re all safe now. He can’t hurt you.”

“Thank you,” he managed to say slowly as she sat him against the wall so that he didn’t take part in the fight with an obviously very broken leg.

She nodded, “of course,” before heading off to join the fight.

Once everything was over and done with, the Joker sent back to Arkham and those she cared about as safe as they could be, she got help from Damian to carry Dick over to her safe house. It was much nearer than the stupid Batcave, and hell like she was going to let any of them head over there anytime soon.

“We should go to the Batcave to get medical assistance,” Tim had argued when she’d told them where they were going to spend the night, at least the night longer if she had anything to say about it.

“Not a chance in hell,” she’d hissed. “You will go back to that cave over my dead body.”

Damian had simply sighed and inquired, “What has father done now?”

“He abandoned you,” she admitted after a couple of seconds of glares from them all. “I told him what was happening and he refused to help.”

“He abandoned us, what a big surprise,” Jason retorted. “What else is new?”

“Come on,” Marinette sighed, leading them in the direction of her safe house. “Let’s get you all to safety.”

[river-bottom-nightmare]

"you were missed, you know.” the voice is light, balancing on the edge of airy like a coin on its rim, in a way only careful practice yielded. so jason whirls around, faster than he normally would in a neatly-pressed suit and loose dress shoes. 

there’s a woman, close cropped red hair swinging into her face and pulling at the corners of her mouth until her expression is as severe as her form. there’s a scar on her jaw and, oh, the memory tumbles into his head as if pushed. kate kane, proof that vigilantism is genetic, once tugged jason into into her side and pulled him away from a particularly leering investor at function. the bite of her nails on his skin was a thousand times sweeter than the man’s smile.

she smirks. “hi.”

“haven’t seen you in a while,” jason responds, attempting casual and instead tripping, falling into his crime lord persona, since he doesn’t know how else to interact with people when he’s jason peter todd-wayne. 

“not since you died,” kate remarks and damn, right for the gullet. “you’ve grown up.”

jason shrugs, suddenly feeling thirteen years old again, suddenly feeling all of four feet, eight inches in the face of her candidness. “time’s funny like that.”

she eyes him carefully, trying to fish for the truth in what she believes is a lie wrapped in a careful quip. jason doesn’t blame her: he’s cultivated quite a reputation for himself. but he stripped the sarcasm from his words before he spoke them, and their rawness is shrouded in the bubbling champagne and crystal chandelier around them, but it’s no less present for anyone who knows how to peel the veil back.

“you were missed,” she repeats, satisfied with his answer. “not sure anyone’s told you that since you’ve come back. your family’s a stubborn bunch. i just wanted to make sure.”

“make sure i knew i was missed?” jason clarifies, feeling a little foolish, because dick wouldn’t beg to save his life but there were a few times that his words came close to pleas, and tim had made it clear how much he’d upheld the pedestal he’d put jason on, and alfred had actually told him that to his face. 

but this was the first time he found himself truly believing those familiar words. he hadn’t known kate, not at all. and yet, she nodded, clapped him on the shoulder once, twice, then left, completely unaware of the pit of resentment she’d carved out of jason’s stomach and thrown on the ground until jason felt like he’d slip on it if he moved, if he breathed.

she didn’t look back, but jason’s eyes didn’t stop following her until she was out of sight.

*

"you were missed, you know.” jason doesn’t startle, his training is etched into every scar decorating his skin, and there are times that he grips and holds onto those scars like a lifeline. he’s far too practiced to flinch, but he’d be lying to himself if his heart didn’t skip a beat.

he forgave himself in the next second, though. cassandra cain could make men much more experienced than him recoil. she appeared soundlessly, and folded down beside him with a grace that jason hadn’t seen anywhere outside his family. the amount of space she left between them, the relaxed posture that left visible tension cording through her arms like pulling steel taffy, the tilt to her body that made jason automatically want to open his mouth and let his tumultuous thoughts come out as an oil spill: right now, cass had dick grayson’s brushtrokes all over her.

“dick put you up to this?” 

cass shook her head, then bit her lip in a considering movement. jason wondered if he’d practiced, because bruce had long since broken that dangerous habit out of his children. 

“i am still working on comfort. assurance,”  she said, rifling through the words like flash cards, picking the most accurate ones. “i thought i’d practice.”

“oh? and why exactly do you think i need comfort.”

“i overheard your argument,” she admitted, “with bruce.”

“i didn’t think anyone was there.”

“i didn’t mean to,” she said. “sorry. but i heard what you said.”

jason scoffed. “prove me wrong. one step forward, two steps back with that dense motherfucker.”

“sign of protection,” cass said. “not distrust.”

out of everyone to say that to him, cass was probably the least likely. jason had thought she, of all people, would be on his side after he found the microchip in his helmet. she, of all people, would value independence after being owned for so long.

“by the time he found you, you were dead. and he missed you more than anything. he will never let that happen again.”

“oh yeah? privacy mean nothing to him? i know he’s crazy about this stuff but come on. there’s a limit.”

“you are not relying on him because of this.” cass stood up, stretching her back, though jason was sure she really didn’t have to. “he is relying on you. let him.”

*

“you were missed, you know.” 

“what, speaking from personal experience? i ain’t you, west.” jason could feel the gentle thrum of electricity behind him, making his hair stand on edge. two steps backward, and he’d be pulled into that void, that black hole of energy, that swirling vortex of pure power condensed into something human-shaped.

except he wouldn’t. it was just wally. just dick’s best friend joining him outside on the balcony. jason didn’t know how dick and tim could stand to be around speedsters willingly, for fun.

“i mean, sort of,” wally shrugged. “but me and you had very different experiences.”

“yeah, west, i’m not sure who else has been stuck in the fucking speedforce.”

wally snorted, an if only you knew hidden in plain sight. jason decided he really didn’t want to know. “i mean there’s that,” the speedster concedes, “but also, everyone forgot i existed. that didn’t happen with you.”

“you sure about that?” 

“hey,” wally eyed him, his eyes suddenly sharp. “don’t start that shit. i was erased from the memories of everyone i loved. you did nothing but stay in the memories of your family.”

“now i know we’re talking about two different things.”

“jason,” wally sighed, and the sheer exasperation pouring off him made jason want curl his fingers, bring them up for a swing, taste the bite of pain that would prick at his knuckles, nevermind the fact that wally would dodge anyway. “don’t do that.”

he turned to face the speedster, arms crossed deliberately over his chest. “where the hell do you get off acting like dick?”

“you’re more like dick than you realize,” wally said, “and i spent half my childhood dealing with his moods. actually, i still do.”

“do you have a point?” jason snapped, starting to get irritated. he wasn’t sure why. he’d spent his entire life one one end of a scale, dick grayson on the other. he’d always tipped his end down. this was the first time someone was telling him the scale was even.

“just because your family didn’t mourn the way you wanted them to,” wally said, “doesn’t mean they didn’t mourn you.”

“fuck you.”

“they loved you. and they missed you,” wally continues, steamrolling right over jason in a way most speedsters were prone to do. “there’s no minimum requirement for loss. no ‘if you didn’t do this, then you didn’t grieve me.’ that’s not even a situation, ever.”

“so that makes everything bruce did okay?” jason sputtered

“not at all. god knows i disagree with bruce on more things than i tolerate. but this is one thing you can’t fault him on.”

it wasn’t that easy, though. jason wanted to scream it at wally’s face, it wasn’t that easy. it wasn’t about whether bruce loved him enough,,,,except maybe it was. jason wanted bruce to have loved him enough to make a difference in gotham. jason wanted bruce to have missed him enough to change things, because change meant that bruce had been so hurt by his death that he refused to let it happen to anyone else again.

bruce had made a vow after his parents died. the fifteen year old inside jason was begging bruce why he hadn’t been afforded the same devotion. jason was his son.

“just something to think about,” wally said, then stepped backward, making to go inside where dick was calling him. “you were afforded the luxury of coming back with a place left empty in your family for you. you didn’t have to make it, like i did.”

“being dead, then coming back wrong isn’t a fucking luxury,” jason snarled.

with a shrug, wally turned, a little faster than the average human, lightning sparking at his heels as he left jason alone on the balcony. “depends on your definition of wrong.”

jason get therapy. please. also happy deathday

honestly i couldn’t decide whose side of the argument i was on, jason’s or wally’s.

tag list: @woahjaybird @birdy-bat-writes @anothertimdrakestan @screennamealreadyused @subtleappreciation @pricetagofficial @catxsnow @bikoncon @bonkybearjpeg @maplumebleue-blog-blog @sundownridge @thatsthewhump @xatanna-troy @red-hood-redemption

[autisticcassandracain]

The streamlining of Cass has other issues: I DON'T WANT her to get along with Jason BECAUSE of his history with killing. I mean, Dick shows remorse, but Jason? (And I can hear the clickety-clacking about how Jason is an antihero already.) Maybe he does now, he saw a kid who was basically him in a former life, and now he's been rethinking things. But before that? lolnope

I agree with you she shouldn't get along with Jason while he's killing people, I've talked about that before and other Cass fans have as well, but that said, I honestly haven't followed Jason's character post-flashpoint enough to really have much of an opinion on how Cass and Jason's relationship was handled in canon. From my understanding post-flashpoint Jason rarely actually seems to kill people, and has recently had a storyline in which he decided to swear it off. If my impression of that is correct, then in that continuity, honestly, I don't necessarily mind Cass and Jason having a decent relationship in that continuity. Cass has repeatedly shown to get along with people who have sworn off killing, and has, on occassion, been cordial with people who do kill (there's that guy with the wind powers whose name I keep forgetting who was fighting against a government who was massacring his ethnic group, for example, who was Cass's love interest for a short while).

I think what makes preboot Cass and Jason uniquely unlikely to get along with each other is not just the fact that he kills, but also that his reasons for it suck really bad. Jason had the bat ideology and a place in the batfam, but swore it off because he thinks killing is the only way to control Gotham's crime. This is fundamentally counter to everything Cass believes, including her belief in redemption. Like, obviously, I don't think Cass can ever have an uncomplicated relationship with people who kill, but she's been willing to reach out and have relationships with them that aren't just 'drop kicks them off a building'. Jason in particular though would be VERY difficult for her to swallow because he's a corruption of the bat symbol she holds so dear. But in the new continuity, where Jason has currently sworn off killing and killed much less liberally before that? I don't think that version is one Cass can't have a decent relationship with.

That said, I don't disagree that it's a symptom of 'streamlining' Cass, but tbh, it's also a symptom of streamlining Jason, as well as the batfam as a whole. DC has been going hard on the idea of the batfam as a literal family post-flashpoint, likely because they've realized there's a very large audience for it. But like, the batfam just. Doesn't work as a big happy family. 90% of the people in it have baggage with each other and 99% have massive mental health issues that get in the way of healthy relationships. In order to arrive at a 'we have a collective movie night in Wayne Manor' set-up, you need to defang and streamline like, all of them. It's actually really funny to me that DC was handed a perfect opportunity with a complete universe reboot to remove a bunch of baggage and bad blood, but decided to recreate a lot of those events instead. And adding new ones. And keeping loaded character dynamics born from bad blood similar, even without the events that would've lead to that bad blood. But then STILL pretend that these bitches go to a fast food restaurant together lmao.

The result is that a vast majority of the batfam feels like they have much less depth than they did preboot, because the priority is no longer creating strong individual characters, but to create familial/friendly relationships. It's why, though Cass and Steph have had more screentime together post-flashpoint than they did preboot, their relationship feels like a much more shallow gal pal friendship. The difficulties their relationship had (born from them being seperate individual characters with different histories and reactions to it that sometimes clashed) have been entirely erased for a 'let's hug and support each other' relationship.

Like I'm not one of those people that's like 'let characters be dysfunctional together it's so much more interesting than boring bland healthy relationships' or whatever, like to each their own and all that but I've got too many dysfunctional (family) relationships irl for me to have much patience with them in fiction. But you can't just write people as deeply dysfunctional for years and then pretend it didn't happen while not fundamentally changing much character history. Like if you want good dad Bruce PLEASE do that but for the love of god you can't still give all his children massive perfectionist complexes and have him routinely tear them down emotionally and even physically and then pretend that a movie night wouldn't be fraught with tension. All that accomplishes is a flattening of everyone's characters by disregarding logical human emotions.

And if you DO change character history to facilitate better relationships you need to actually replace it with something substantial, otherwise you end up with Wayne Family Adventures or, you know, fanfic.

Anyway TL;DR Cass having a decent relationship with Jason in the post-flashpoint continuity is a symptom of the entire batfam being streamlined to force them into a happy family they have literally never been before and should not be within the canon DC has presented us with.

Also as a last fyi, I don't think it's fair to class Dick as a murderer, since he's killed one (1) person, it was the Joker, in a fit of rage after being lead to believe he'd killed another one of his little brothers, was immediately wracked with guilt once coming to his senses, and also the Joker was resurrected via CPR immediately after. Like man I just don't think that counts, and I very highly doubt Cass would be anything but sympathetic about the situation, especially since it's not like Dick thinks killing is okay, and although he's not AS rigid about it as Bruce or Cass, he very much does believe in and abide by the no killing rule, so like. I really don't see why Cass would have issues with him on that front.

[themandylion]

97 & 41 jaytim

Oh wow, this ended up long. /o\

97 (Time Travel) + 41 (First Kiss) + JayTim

He's boosting tires in the Bowery when the thugs find him. Crowd him up against a wall and threaten him with bodily harm for horning in on their territory, even though this part of the city is a free-for-all, with no one reigning supreme. There's three of them to his one, all of them full-grown men with bulging muscles and nasty tempers and Jason knows he's in his final moments, that there's no way he's escaping this. Still, that doesn't mean he's going to go down without a fight. He squares his shoulders, plants his feet, raises the tire iron in his hand, and—

Between one blink and the next, the back-most thug is on the ground, groaning and clutching his crotch. There's a blur of red, and then the next one's down on his knees, the crowbar he was gripping half a block away and the hand that was holding it pinned to the wall by a slim, sharp-edged disk.

Silver flashes through the night, and the final guy collapses in a heap, just sprawled out on the pavement like he's not even human anymore, just a pile of discard clothes over something lumpy and unmoving. Someone lands on his back, light and nimble and impossibly tall. "You okay there, kid?" the new person asks, crouching down so he's at Jason's level and smiling.

"…Batman?" He's only ever seen the Bat from a distance before, but he's heard about the cape and cowl, and this guy has both.

The guy shakes his head. "Nope, not him. I'm his partner, though."

"Robin wears green," Jason feels compelled to point out, because he's definitely seen Robin before, though always on the TV, when the Teen Titans are fighting really scary bad guys elsewhere in the world.

This time, a shadow seems to pass over the man's face, sad and unhappy. "I'm a different kind of Robin. Red Robin. I'm pretty new, it's not surprising you haven't heard of me." He leans back on his heels and glances around at the thugs, frowning. "I've got to tie these guys up and leave them somewhere the GCPD will find them. Do you think you can get home on your own?"

Jason gulps, staring up at him, at the way all that tight leather and spandex hugs his body. Gee whiz. "Yeah, I. I can take care of myself. Thanks!" He surges forward, practically smacking his mouth against Red Robin's cheek, before running off into the night. Maybe not headed home, but to as close as anything gets, these days.

---

Two weeks later, Batman catches him boosting tires on Crime Alley. A week later, he's going home with the man. Jason asks about Red Robin and gets a confused, clueless look, which is strange. With everything else happening, he forgets about the man in the black cowl with the silver staff, but he still finds himself drawn to that one particular shade of red.

---

He forgets until the memory is jarred out of the deepest depths years later on the other side of the multiverse, when he's bound to a chair and staring down the barrel of gun. A gun held by another Batman, a different Bruce. One who did all the things he thought he wanted his Bruce to do, only to end up a broken man as a result. Jason tries to explain himself and his presence, but it's hard to when he keeps seeing that suit in the case over this Batman's shoulder.

They reach an understanding, a kind of peace. Both of them, finally, for the first time in ages. This other Bruce offers him the suit, and Jason doesn't think twice before putting it on. He's traveled across the multiverse, seen places where dead people live again, where evil people are good and vice versa. It's not too far a stretch to believe that somehow, he's going become his own childhood hero.

When he finishes pulling on the last piece, Bruce looks on him with pride and announces, "Red Robin lives!"

"Red…?" Jason murmurs, more than a little startled. It's been so long, he'd nearly forgotten the name, but it fits, it makes sense. Finally, he's back on the right path, back to being someone the boy he once was could be proud of. Will be proud of, when their paths cross again, which he's sure they will.

---

The other Batman dies.

---

They get back, finally done traveling across the multiverse, fleeing across Apokolips, running from plagues and maybes and might-have-beens. Donna and Rayner return to wherever they call home, and Jason... He thought he finally found himself when he put on the cowl and became Red Robin, but with everything that happened after that moment, all the contrition he gained has been too long stewing in a half-broken heart. He isn't sure who rescued him when he was a kid, but it wasn't him, and it wasn't the long-dead Jason of another world. Maybe it was no one at all, and he made it all up and convinced himself it was real.

He runs back to Gotham, strips off the cape and cowl, the bandoliers and leather. Throws it all in the trash and goes to knock some heads and blow off some steam, anything to escape from what the rest of the Justice League brought with them—a sob story and a broken, days-old body.

---

The suit disappears from the can where he threw it, and he thinks good riddance to bad rubbish, but the person who's wearing it now doesn't understand the significance, the legacy. Doesn't know what it symbolizes, a last chance at redemption, a final loss of innocence.

The new kid distracts him, muddies the water and still Jason doesn't see it, doesn't realize what's happening. Even when the kid takes the cowl, adds it to his green-free suit, he doesn't see it.

Jason's too busy fighting, too busy screaming, raging, being angry at himself and the world to realize how things are swirling tighter and tighter, closing in, twining together, weaving themselves in an intricate, impossible mesh that's new and old and always existing all at the same time. The three of them—him and Dick and the new kid—push and shove and fight and scream and grieve in their own ways, trying to figure out who they're going to be now, what the world is without Bruce.

He ignores overtures of friendship, leaves the kid broken and bleeding out and thinks nothing of it, still too busy hurting and too busy denying he hurts.

Thinks nothing of Robin back on the streets in red and green and black and yellow, a different boy, an actual child.

---

Bruce comes back, but he's just as stubborn as always, and Jason burned the last of his bridges while the old man was playing possum. There's nothing left for him to do but lurk in the shadows and grit his teeth and watch Drake bounce around the city in a costume that isn't his, telling himself he doesn't care, that it doesn't rub him the wrong way.

Doesn't actually realize what's happening until one day he's watching as Drake races across the city, ready to step in and stop him if he dares to cross into Red Hood's territory when suddenly—

There's no one. The roof's empty, not a soul in sight.

He swings over, investigates. There's a strange acrid smell in the air along with the faintest traces of sweat and exhaustion, but there's no clue to where he's gone, no hint. Minutes pass and the sky is getting darker as evening turns into night. Just when he's given up, Drake reappears, but still, unmoving. One hand grasping his staff while the other touches his cheek and he stares into nothing, dazed and unfocused.

His attention snaps up, and Jason is too startled to move, still standing there in the middle of the roof, the two of them locked in place.

"Holy fuck." He can't. This isn't—

He's tried to kill Drake multiple times over the years. They've barely had a conversation that hasn't ended with Jason drawing a knife or a gun, and more often than not he comes out on top. Leaves the guy knowing that he's alive at Jason's mercy.

But now he's standing there, finally grown into the Red Robin suit and name, filling it in all the right places, all the right ways, grasping a staff that Jason somehow failed to recognize until this exact moment.

"I never—" He never thought to make the connection, always assumed it had to be someone else, some one huge. Big enough to match the larger-than-life figure that dominated a half-forgotten memory.

"Huh." Red Robin collapses his staff, clips it his belt. "Random time blip? I didn't even realize."

Which would explain it. Of course he didn't realize—no way would he have helped that other, younger Jason if he'd known who it was. Why save a boy who's going to grow up to become a monster bent on destroying him over and over again. "Sorry," Jason says, startled, confused, unable to wrap his head around it all as he stumbles backwards, tries to do what he always does when he's confronted with too much, too fast—run.

Red Robin—Drake—tilts his head to the side and then does something completely unexpected. He shoves back the cowl and studies Jason with cool, clear eyes. "I have a feeling this has been a weird night for both of us. You could stick around. We could figure this out together."

So help him, Jason hesitates. "Time travel is pretty weird."

"I was thinking more being kissed by my childhood crush. But yeah, that too."

"Your… what?"

"Come on," he says, holding out a hand. "I think it's time we finally talked. Maybe without the death threats this time?"

Gulping, Jason takes that hand in his.

It's not much, but. It's a start.

(The Fanfic Trope MASH-UP is still open for asks!)

[sohotthateveryonedied]

The Way the Batkids’ Sanctuary Therapy Sessions Should Have Gone

Dick: “My friends like to joke that I’m a safety net. That everyone can come to me with whatever problems they have and I’ll be able to make everything better, even if it’s just for a little while. And I’m glad I’m able to do that for the people I love. But...what about me? What do I do when things get bad? Sometimes it feels like I’m not allowed to talk about what’s bothering me to anyone else, because...well, it’s my job to be strong, right? I’m the safety net. My brothers and my sister and my friends and Bruce...I’m supposed to catch them when they stumble. But sometimes...I just want someone to catch me too. Is that selfish?” 

Barbara: “Do you ever look back at your life and think...’what the hell am I doing here?’ When I first became Batgirl, it was...it was fun. I liked it. Probably more than I should have. Then the Joker shot me, and...I worked through that. I adapted, and I found a way to still help people, even though I knew things would never be the same again. Except now I’m back to being Batgirl—something I never imagined possible—and I find myself just...waiting. I’m waiting to see what’s going to try and hurt me next. And when I get into that headspace, I always end up wondering...did I deserve it? Because the more I think about it, the more sure I am that I didn’t deserve any of this. I didn’t deserve to be hurt, but it happened anyway. It...happens. And I’m getting tired.” 

Jason: “I joke about it a lot. ‘Been dead, done that.’ ‘You look terrible, and this is coming from a literal zombie.’ Shit like that. And it doesn’t bother me. Really. I’m over it. I just...what now? I was given another chance at life. And I know that happens to people a lot in this crazy world we live and die in, but every day I can’t help feeling like I’m screwing it all up, you know? The universe thought I was good enough to give another shot, and I’m...I’m blowing it. Why should someone like me get to live again, when...I’m not so sure I deserve to be alive?”

Cass: “I don’t...talk a lot. I used to be more quiet...before. Back when I was bad. But I found...a family. Friends. One friend. But she killed him. What if I also...go bad again? Will they hurt me too?”

Tim: “I read about it. That’s a thing I do. I read things. In the Leaguers’ reports, it said Wally’s trauma and loss was what made him...you know. And I can’t stop thinking about that. Trauma made him snap. It made him kill...so many people, even one of his best friends. And it makes me wonder...what about me? What’s going to happen when I snap? I keep trying to move forward and make myself forget all the people I’ve lost, but I know one day it’s going to catch up with me and...what’s going to happen? Who’s going to get hurt?”

Steph: “I had another life, you know? I saw some of it, and Tim told me the rest. In that world, I was Robin. I was Batgirl. I had a baby. Can you believe that? Me, Stephanie Brown, daughter of a D-list villain who used to tell me I was going to die a nobody...I was someone special. And I can’t stop thinking about it. I can’t focus on homework or training or cartoons anymore because all I do now is wonder...am I in the wrong place? Most people don’t even know who the Spoiler is. And the ones who do know me don’t care. But...in that other universe? I was important. I was a bat, through and through, and it felt...good. It felt right, the way you wake up after a good dream and want to make sure you remember what it felt like. How am I supposed to live here...when all I want is to be somewhere else?”

Damian: “I went to Hell. Literally. And I came back because...because Father wanted me back. He loved me enough to bring me back to life, and now I’m here but...I can’t forget. What do you do—how do you go on living—when you know your soul is already too corroded to be healed? That soon enough, you’ll get what’s coming to you, regardless of how hard you try now to be better than you used to be? I’ve been told that the R in Robin stands for ‘redemption,’ but...I can’t help thinking that it might stand for ‘rotten’ instead.”

[captainshazamerica]

Literally all I have to say is that Gar would be worthy of Thors hammer and when he lifts it he should whack dick with it cuz dick is being more than an emotionally stunted asshole than what people think Bruce is, why must he keep referring to jason as the enemy who needs to be stopped especially seeing as they now know what the toxin actually does to people I ain't saying jason is blameless but you'd think dick would show some openness toward the possibility that jason can be saved or helped I love dick but he stresses me out so much sometimes like ahhh

I know the writers are trying to keep everyone happy by showing dickbabs and dickkory and there's no harm in trying to keep all the fans happy but and no offence to dickbabs but yo anytime dickbabs is even alluded to my brain is just like uhh hurry up and go away make this stop

!Blackfire becoming part of the titans!!!!!!!! 💜 Korryyy why did you trust that the Gotham mob lady had good intentions with her son, she is a mob lady in Gotham, honey no! I did not expect kory to melt her yikes

Gar better hug jason when he gets back and dick better start behaving like a big brother, honestly gar my boy bless you 💚 I think even bruce would be side eyeing dick bruce would be like boy whatt! 'enemy' he's not the enemy but he does need stopped I wish Alfred was here to be like master dick careful now son you're living up to your nickname 😅

When are Rachel and Donna coming back!?

i love that one shady mob lady that was all nervous and looking around and the guy was like chill the bats not in Gotham-little details like that are just mwah 😚😍

Jonathan Crane is lit, human garbage but still lit tho 🔥

🎪(Trying to watch this weeks episode was sooooo painful for me cuz of the glitchyness it was the most glitchy ep yet but at least the sound was okay )

BRO GAR WOULD BE ABLE TO LIFT MJOLNIR OMG! New headman accepted!! Like im obsessed with that idea ahhhh and its sooo true. But right! I love that boy SO dang much omg, I am SO happy SOMEONE still believes in saving Jason ahhh. Right! I was so sad when Dick thought he was beyond saving when like just a couple episodes ago he was so adamant about Crane using and turning him into a monster. Im wondering if he’s just conflicted and is trying to focus on the mission but still thinks he can save him, OR, like, I think it could be apart of his character arc this season of being different from bruce in the emotions department, like Im wondering if he will try to take down jason again, something will go horribly wrong(or that already happened) and he will finally realize that he has to have a different approach than bruce and the only way to stop it is to save him(with probably Gar being the one to get it through is head/show him jason can be saved. I hope they don’t just ignore all that character development cause at the beg of the season it seemed like Dick was really growing in those ways

Ahahaha really? I actually loved this Dickbabs *hides* But I know im in the minority xD During that scene though , i was thinking, Batanon ain’t gonna like this xD

Lmao Im Kori, I totally would have done the same and didn’t expect the mob lady to kill her son xD I really thought she was on the fence anyway, Im too much of a sucker for redemption arcs, I would never survive in DC world man xD But yes! I am SO happy they went with making Blackfire part of the titans! AND THAT OUFIT CHANGE THO LIKE YAS QUEEN!!!!!! But yeah, I am shocked Kori killed her, Dick is gonna be so mad omg, thats probably gonna be a bad fight later

Gosh, now all I want is for Gar to hug him omg, even tho i doubt its gonna happen(tho I also doubted they would make Blackfire part of the titans and that bruce would kill the joker yet here we are so at this point who knows lol). AHAHA, omg, Alfred canonically would tell him that though omg xD Dang, wasted opportunity!

Oooh, I keep forgetting about rachel and donna lmao *hides*, I wanna know when my Tim is gonna have some screen time!

Haha right, and then the second she heard the titans she was like, yeah im out xD I loved the mob guy eating ice cream cause same xD

Yes!!!! Human garbage man but the most lit human garbage man! Like, he is SUCH a good villain here omg, like he is the worst and creepiest but i think thats perfect for this world omg. Its nice seeing him as the mastermind and not just a puppet for a dif bad guy for once!

ALSO! DID YOU READ THE WAYNE FAMILY ADVENTURES?!

[our-happygirl500-fan]

Look I get objectively why it happens they're more popular characters, they have more content out there, fans who joined after the reboot are more active since lots of fans from preboot left because they kept on getting disappointed ect ect but like logically speaking fics that have Dick and Jason appearing more than Cass or Steph don't really make sense.

Don't get me wrong I love Dick and Jason but they should be the ones that are sort of outside it all unless it's a big event not Cass and Steph, like most fics have Dick just hanging around Gotham when shit goes down when he should be in Bludhaven? He has his own city? Which is why I like fics that just have throw away lines like 'Dick is visiting' or 'Dick came down to help' Dick acting like a resident of Gotham like the others just doesn't make sense to me.

Also I love Jason, most of the fics I read on Ao3 are Jason centric (though that's mostly due to there being more Jason fics than Steph fics) my favourite kinds of fics are either 1. Jason just trying to live his life away from the Bats while Bruce angsts in his general direction and 2. Reconciliation fics which have the emotional catharsis of redemption arcs and also involve Jason getting some form of therapy but that being said it makes absolutely NO sense for him to be more involved in Batfamily stuff than Cass and Steph.

Like Jason's entire thing is he's like the outcast of the batfam (it's complicated) Cass and Steph are arguably the most loyal members of the Batfamily. 

Cass believes in the mission more than anyone, she's done everything for the Bat and Steph has arguably every right to be like 'fudge you guys I'm out!' with how the Batfamily has treated her over the years but she never once had any animosity towards any of them never stopped believing and loving any of them, Barbara was super dismissive towards Steph as Spoiler but them moment she started giving Steph a chance as Batgirl Steph was literally like 'I would did for you'

I just think Cass and Steph should be the most core members of Batfamily since they are the most loyal.

Tim's very loyal too but he's regularly had a lot of stories where he's like 'I've had it with your shit Bruce!' and no ones debating his core membership so moving on.

Dick has his own city and he has the Titans he's got more of a life outside of Bruce and Gotham and Jason as mentioned before is literally estranged from the family so IDK it just seems like it would make more sense to have Cass and Steph as the core batfamily members and Jason and Dick the ones that show up primarily for major events in fics and comics than the other way round

[northoftheroad]

The Wayne family

Sometimes, when I read Batman fanfiction, I wonder whether the writer has been reading the same comic books as I have. Because they paint a picture of a big, happy Wayne family where the kids are very close and sometimes the whole bunch even live together. 

Now, I do know the difference between canon and fanfic. And I get that wishful thinking and selective reading plays a big part. But still, I'm curious where these conceptions come from.

Just to be clear. I do think of Bruces adopted/foster children as a family because they have a common father(figure). But they have not grown up together. It depends on what DC continuity you're playing with, of course, but most of them are in their teens when Bruce Wayne comes into their lives and they can’t have lived more than a few years with him. Several of them have not lived together. So even if I let my imagination run amok, I can't see them living at the Manor together as a tight-knit family, and I don't think all of them know each other very well.

Batman and Robin vol 2 # 10. By Peter Tomasi, art Patrick Gleason and Mick Gray.

Dick Grayson had moved out (or been kicked out, depending on what version you go with) when Jason Todd came along (and Bruce suffered from empty nest syndrome). Jason was dead when Tim Drake came into the picture, and Tim lived with his parents or boarding school in the beginning. Even if Dick kept in pretty close contact with Tim, he had a permanent home elsewhere.

Batman: Gotham Knights # 45. By Scott Beatty, art Roger Robinson and John Floyd. 

I admit I haven't read a lot with Cassandra Cain. As far as I understand, after Flashpoint she has never lived in the Manor. Before Flashpoint, she was adopted, but I don’t believe she lived long in the Manor, and the only other Wayne adoptee she can have shared the home with is Tim. 

Edit: At least, Bruce probably did have time to adopt Cass, even though he promised to do it in Batman: Redemption Road (2008), just before the story arc Batman RIP where he, presumedly, died. They certainly did not live together as a family for long. 

Batgirl: Redemption Road # 6. By Adam Beechen, art Jim Calafiore and Jack Purcell.

I’m sure there are cute panels of Tim and Cass out there, but I’m picking some from comics I know of.

Batgirl # 50. By Dylan Horrocks, art Rick Leonardi and Jesse Delperdang.

Batman: Family # 7. By John Francis Moore, art Steve Lieber and Stefano Gaudiano.

Tim was an older teenager when Damian al Ghul/Wayne dropped into the house and immediately tried to get rid of Tim the hard way, and I don’t think they spent a long time under the same roof until Bruce "died", and soon after Tim left (at least partially). 

Batman # 657. By Grant Morrison, art Andy Kubert and Jesse Delperdang.

Dick moved in with Damian and raised him (for about a year). When Bruce first came back he travelled with Batman Inc, and Dick and Damian continued to live together. There were times when you could find Bruce, Dick, Tim, Damian and Alfred in the Manor at the same time, but not living permanently together. 

Batman & Robin vol 1 # 20. By Peter J. Tomasi, art Patrick Gleason and Mick Gray.

Now, Flashpoint, New 52 and Rebirth makes it even more impossible to puzzle together a credible timeline for everything Bruce Wayne is supposed to have done and everyone's relationship with each other. We’ll end up with Jason being Robin for about a month... But, anyway...

At the start of New 52, Dick has gone back to Nightwing and moved into his own flat in Gotham. He’ll continue to move around in different cities so he’s clearly not living with any other Wayne. By then, Cassandra is retconned out of the family and I haven’t seen any sign that Jason lives at the Manor with Bruce and Damian (and I don’t know about Tim either).

Fast forward into Rebirth, and Duke Thomas stayed and trained with Bruce for a while. If any of the other kids lived there at the same time is anybody's guess, but you can see the whole Bat-family (including, for instance, Stephanie Brown and Luke Fox) share a happy meal in the Manor, so at least they socialize from time to time. I’ve read somewhere that Duke since has moved in with relatives.

In canon right now, as far as I can make out, the only one who (at least sometimes and varying between the books) lives with Bruce and Alfred in the Manor is Damian. 

Another fanon exaggeration on the opposite part of the scale, in my opinion, is the penchant for portraying Dick and Jason's relationship as extremely bad from the start.

There are three different versions of how they met before Flashpoint. The first time, when Jason was a circus-boy Dick clone, Dick originally wanted to take him in, but Bruce stepped in instead (DC needed a new Robin for Batman, after all). The second time, Bruce had fired Dick from Robin because he was shot by the Joker and then promptly picked up Jason, after Dick had left. The third time (Nightwing Year One), Bruce fired Dick and kicked him out (I tend to ignore this version mostly, to be honest, because Bruce is ridiculously much of an ass here) and then, as you know, took in Jason.

And it's not that Dick loves Jason straight away, or the fact Bruce took in a new Robin by the blink of an eye, in the two later versions. But he still gives Jason his old Robin suit and his phone number in version two and in version three, they part on decent terms, and Dick tells Bruce (by recording) that he could have done worse.

After that, they hardly meet before Jason is killed because Dick is working with the Titans and doesn't live in Gotham. Pre-Crisis on Infinite Earths Jason helped the New Teen Titans a few issues (Dick was busy getting in the hands of Brother Blood and being brainwashed, at the time) in New Teen Titans vol 2 # 20–31. And there is a snapshot of Dick and Jason hanging out as civilians in Nightwing vol 2 issue 63. That's about it. 

Nightwing vol 2 # 63. By Chuck Dixon, art Trevor McCarthy and Karl Kesel. 

Then, of course, Jason came back from the dead slightly unhinged (2005). I don't know the whole picture of meetings or confrontations between the Bat-kids between Jason's comeback and Flashpoint (2011). I do know he dressed up as Nightwing and killed people in Nightwing vol 2 # 118–122. When Jason was abducted, Dick struggled a bit with the question "Is it ethical for me to save someone who's a danger to society?" before he went to save Jason. In the end, Jason sends a telegram where he says "Thanks for coming for me, brother. I know we don't agree on much. I just wanted to believe we could be family again." Tim and Dick also had a confrontation with Jason in Teen Titans (2003) # 47, and Dick and Jason had a not very amicable meeting in the Outsiders v 3 # 44.

Nightwing vol 2 # 118 –122. By Bruce Jones, art Joe Dodd, Paco Diaz, BIT and Nathan Massengill. 

And then we have Battle for the Cowl, where Jason shot Damian, left Tim for dead and tried to kill Dick after he had refused to become Robin to Jason's Batman. (I guess there are Jason fans out there who think that Dick was not justified to put Jason in jail after that. Obviously, I'm not one of them, but if anyone dislikes these years in canon and decides to ignore it to the best if their ability, who am I to judge?)

So, the Wayne boys definitely had a partly antagonistic, partly close, partly distant relationship. After Flashpoint, I think it has in been portrayed as better. At least, I haven't seen them try to kill each other...  Tim calls Damian "gremlin", Jason is Damian's secret mentor (or so I've seen somewhere), they sometimes meet on the rooftops and work together. On the other hand, the previously close relationship between Dick and Tim seems pretty much forgotten. (Let's hope they start remembering that soon again.)

Detective Comics # 975. By James Tynion IV, art Raul Fernandez and Alvaro Martinez.

Somewhere in Batman and Robin Eternal, Jason says that Tim is the only of the other Robins that he likes. (I honestly don't know where that came from, I never noticed them seeing eye to eye before. Still, it's not like I've read every Bat comic ever printed. But then, I rather believe the same goes for a number of DC writers... Edit: I’ve been informed that it’s probably from a flashback in an issue of Red Hood and the Outlaws.) In RH and the outlaws annual 1 (I think that’s the only issue of that series I’ve read, to be honest), Jason narrates that there was a time when he would have killed Dick on sight. "Not my proudest moment. We've made up since then." They have a complicated relationship, but they are still somehow clearly brothers, and Jason thinks back to when he saw the Flying Graysons perform and how Dick was a hero to him then (another retcon after Flashpoint).  As far as I know, it's the only post-Flashpoint retelling of how Jason and Dick met, and the story is that Alfred puts Jason in Dick's room so he wouldn't have to clean a new one. Dick is not happy to find someone in his bed when he comes home to visit. They fight. Honestly, I can't imagine Alfred doing that, so that's one version of the canon I’m happy to overlook...

On the other hand, we have Jason and Dick hanging out on the rooftops in Blüdhaven in Nightwing vol 4 # 15, and Dick, Jason and Damian certainly bicker like siblings (together with Duke) in Batman vol 3 # 16 and # 33.

Nightwing vol 4 # 15. By Tim Seeley, art Minkyu Jung. 

Batman vol 3 # 16. By Tom King, art David Finch. 

On the whole, I think the only thing you can be sure of about the relationships between the Wayne family members these days is that it varies quite a bit between titles and writers and has had its ups and downs over the years. But that they have never lived together as one big, happy family.

Of course, all this is based on the comic books I’ve read, and there might very well be stories out there that paint a different picture. But on the whole, I’m pretty confident that this panel is about as close to a happy family gathering we’ve seen. And then it’s not only the Waynes but the Bat family.

Batman and the Signal. By Scott Snyder and Tony Patrick, art Cully Hamner.

[bat-lings]

I love everyone in the batfam no matter how problematic, but the Rhato 25 discourse bothered me. As a Bruce fan I didn't like the complete crucifixion of his character by the Jason diehards. Personally I feel Bruce was justified (the brutality felt like a publicity stunt for shock value, which I didn't like), but seeing these same fans (that hate Bruce for daring to hurt their fav) then celebrate when Jason did the exact same thing to Damian in the teen titans annual. It's so hypocritical.

Oh, Anon, I fear you inadvertently put the finger on the exact thing I despise about current storylines. I agree in that they’re taking the shock value too far and that every character suffers for it.

Frankly, I have more of a problem with what the fans are served than with how they reacted to it.

Fair warning, I’m gonna get very critical with the writing of the two events Anon mentioned. I’d be extra interested to hear about those events from the perspective of someone who actually enjoyed them, but it’s not worth your good mood if reading a post basically trashing said storylines upsets you.

I’ll respectfully disagree about Bruce’s behavior towards Jason. It was excessively brutal and nothing justified it. The scene can be summed up to shock value, to the point it would need to be entirely rewritten to exonerate Bruce. Jason relapsed into lethal force for understandable reasons. Even if we consider nothing excuses Jason; even in an alternative scenario where he’d have shot the Penguin out of the blue, Bruce’s behavior would be plain wrong.

Bruce went after him, assaulted him, and kept on beating him while Jason wasn’t defending himself.

Let’s forget this was Jason for a second. This is not the kind of violence Bruce should resort to against any criminal. I don’t just mean that hey, this isn’t ideal morally speaking, I mean that Bruce Wayne, as a character, as the man who was always written to believe in redemption/rehabilitation, as the man who willed never to use lethal or even unnecessary force, can’t do this and pretend to be remotely what Bruce’s character is supposed to represent. I hate it every time Bruce is written to use that kind of empty violence, preboot or reboot. Miller went down that road too and it never fulfilled my idea of entertainment.

Then you add on the fact that Jason’s his son, and it makes it all so much worse. Bruce legit puts the blame on Jason, not only during the confrontation (“I told you if you left me it’d be your choice”), but also in a later issue when Lobdell serves us a disastrous attempt at a reconciliation scene. “I love you but you deserved a kick in the ass.” Like, I don’t think Lobdell could’ve portrayed a more abusive father-figure if he wanted to.

As a comparison, have similar confrontations between Bruce and Dick in preboot.

[Batman (1940) #600]

So here there’s an actual fight. Dick is actively participating rather than being used as Bruce’s punching-ball. Power-wise, they’re equals.

You want a true equivalent to the scene between Jason and Bruce, where Dick suffers from a power-imbalance + Bruce being toxic?

[New Titans (1988) #55]

Note how it doesn’t go further than a punch because it’s bad enough that way and doesn’t need to escalate further to drive the narrative home. There’s no “I love you but you deserved a punch” bullshit later on either.

Even in Teen Titans: Year One where Bruce was particularly terrible (too much imo), he’s brainwashed when he hits Dick and nothing in the story/framing exonerates Bruce for his global behavior.

Those confrontations had a place in their narratives other than shock value. Bruce’s descent after Jason’s death, his mental state in Murderer/Fugitive. They illustrate how fucked up Bruce is at a specific moment due to specific events and context. They’re not casually dismissed afterwards by a hug and a dubious line. And again, they don’t require Bruce to beat Dick half to death to drive their point home.

By the way, this is reconciliation.

[Batman (1940) #605]

This is a component of the circle of abuse.

[Red Hood and the Outlaws (2016) #27]

“I love you. If only you weren’t so stubborn, you wouldn’t deserve an occasional kick in the ass. Like when I inflicted you severe physical trauma. But I love you anyway. Aaah, the woes of father-son relationships!”

There was no narrative reason for Bruce to take it that far with Jason in rhato. It’s just physically more violent and emotionally less impactful, because it’s so damn cheap and because it tries to pass abuse for a normal familial dissension that can be cured with a hug. I can’t get emotionally engaged with that kind of writing.

It’s a reboot, it’s entitled to change characters, but it’s simply not a Bruce I recognize nor one whose existence I’m particularly eager to acknowledge.

As for the Jason-Damian confrontation…

I don’t care that Jason didn’t want to fight and tried so hard to de-escalate the situation until Damian pulled out that mystery drama-box. I don’t care that Damian’s a trained fighter. Frankly, I don’t care about the specifics. At the end of the day, an adult beat the shit out of a child. A child who was framed in earlier appearances to be his little brother. A writer/editorial team/whoever the hell made the conscious choice to put those characters in the specific situation where an adult would beat the shit of a child family member.

You know, for all that I hate TT#29 for its cheap violence (and Jason’s less than ideal portrayal), it at least had the decency to oppose two characters of roughly the same age. And in this continuity, Jason was revived to be a villain. I may not like it but it’s expected that he acts villainous towards the fam, or Tim here. Plus Tim and Jason were never ever portrayed as brothers in post-crisis. They’re strangers. Them beating each other simply doesn’t have the same significance.

Have another preboot parallel where neither perpetrators are villains.

[Red Robin #14]

Here the writer puts Tim in a situation where he has to defend himself against a ten-year-old. There’s a punch, and then the violence stops. That’s it. Much like the preboot Dick-Bruce confrontations, it doesn’t need to be taken further. The story delivers its point without any ten-year-old getting beaten senseless by an older ally.

Seriously, how does this…

[Batman (2016) #16]

…exist in the same continuity as this?

[Teen Titans Annual 1 (2019)]

How is this a good way to portray familial dissensions/confrontations of any kind?

You’re the writer. You decide if the 20 something is gonna throw hands with the 13 year old. You decide how the father figure reacts to the son’s actions. You decide how far each confrontation goes. You decide whether two characters that were explicitly portrayed as brothers are gonna bleed each other out. You decide whether the father figure is abusive. You decide what happens, how it happens, how it’s resolved, and how every element is framed.

Physical violence is just another narrative tool that should be used to construct a story. You can’t just throw it in, dial it up to 11, and hope it’ll make your scene impactful. It just proves you don’t know how to write a vivid scene without relying on cheap tricks.

Anon, I get your frustration, I don’t like what’s done of Bruce either. I made a post about his parental failures in preboot ( bat-lings.tumblr .com/post/180901354160/do-you-think-bruce-was-a-bad-father-im-starting); none of them ever reached rhato’s caricatural empty brutality. Bruce is less and less well received by fans as he’s sometimes instrumentalized in sequences that don’t fit his character. It’s not fair on him.

But I can’t seem to disconnect with what we are given long enough to worry about how we react to it. And to be fair I’ve seen as many posts hating on Jason’s recent actions than hating on Bruce’s.

Tbh bad writing/ooc-ness aside there’s little anyone can say to exonerate either character here. The fans are reacting vividly because they’re faced with a story that has little else to sell other than vivid brutality. We all go “gasp!”, pick sides, and that’s it. It’s hard to breed interesting discussion among fans with that configuration.

The good news is, each of those characters have seen better days, and not everything in reboot is as bad as the above sequences. Also we have fanfictions :D

[scandalsavagefanfic]

So, I was reading through a few panels of a comic in which Tim kicks Jason in the balls and I got a little upset that both Tim and Dick were smirking over it as they walked away leaving Jason clutching his nuts on the roof. I am not 100% everything that was going on (seemed like something to do with Bruce's death?), but Donna had just said that she didn't believe Jason did whatever they were accusing him of at the time because he should sadness over it? In some ways it seem a little out of line.

2/2 I mean, I can get why Tim might have done it, since Jason did try to kill him, but for Dick, for all I hear that he has tried to ‘redeem’ and ‘fix’ Jason, it felt weird that he showed no sympathy. They both looked like they were just flying off the rails and accusing Jason of doing whatever it was because it was the easy option and they wanted to vent their frustrations? Do you know if this is a result of Batman dying? Did Donna stick up for Jason because they had already teamed up at this point?

They’re talking about the murder of Duela Dent. I’ll get into it in a sec.

I am also not a fan of how that went down but less for the fact of Tim kicking Jason in the nuts and more that he freaking crosses the roof to Jason head on, and takes a big ol’ kick that any Bat would see coming from the 100 feet away Tim was.

You’re absolutely right, Tim and Dick are written really bad here. This is before Jason tried to kill Tim in Battle for the Cowl and, despite what many people think, he didn’t try to kill him when he broke into Titan’s Tower. At this point, they’ve been building Jason up for redemption. Both Dick and Tim come off unbearably petty (especially Tim) and they jump to some crazy conclusions with practically no information. Jason, on the other hand, comes off fine (other than any newbie Bat would be able to avoid that kick).

Anywho, here’s how all that went down.

Countdown to Final Crisis (which, as the name suggests, started at 51 and counted down to 1), began with the death of Duela Dent, a.k.a. The Joker’s Daughter. She tried to kidnap a celebrity and was stopped by Jason:

(Countdown #51)

When he hears her fighting he runs off and tries to save her. With notable lack of resistance from the police despite ostensibly still being a wanted criminal (?)

(Countdown #51)

Then Superman helps Jimmy Olsen track Jason down to get the story of what happened. You may have seen this first panel on Tumblr lately (it’s come across my dash a couple times lately). I can’t include it because Tumblr is telling me I can only put ten images in a post and this one doesn’t make the cut. But it’s the one where Jimmy says “That was impressive mister Todd.” (Countdown #50)

And THEN, the Titans attend Duela’s funeral because she was a Titan for a minute and Donna runs into Jason. He tells her the story of how the monitor killed Duela and he felt terrible when he wasn’t able to save her (which is nicely depicted in the above panel where he’s holding her). Jason and Donna have a really nice moment and it sets up their teamup for the rest of the series.

(Countdown 48)

Now that brings us to Teen Titans #47. The Titans are investigating Duela’s death and they’re interviewing the celebrity she tried to kidnapp. Literally all the girl says is “…she dropped me, some guy in a red hood showed up, I woke up with the cops…”

Literally. That’s it. That is what Dick and Tim base everything off. They don’t ask for any clarification, don’t ask anything deeper.

Lol, Tim. Rose is gonna have a good time ;)

Side Note: I like the juxtaposition of the girls in the background of that second panel, calmly walking forward suggesting that Dick and Tim barreled in like hotheads and all three boys are physically fighting when they could have just had a conversation, even if it was tense.

Look at Rose. She’s a blessing. She needs to be in more things. I just adore her. And I ship her with Jason so hard. So hard, guys. And it’s almost entirely because of this scene and they don’t even really talk. 

Some context, I forgot earlier. This is very soon after Jason dressing up as Nightwing and fucking with Dick in New York but I actually thought that ended kind of amicably (again, crappy memory so I could be way off) so the venom here feels a tiny bit forced. Tim still has a pretty good reason to be pissed. Even if Jason wasn’t trying to kill him, he did beat the shit out of him.

Donna defends Jason because of their conversation at the cemetery in Countdown which is the beginning of their team up AND because she’s open to the idea that people can change.

(Teen Titans #47)

That, and the fact that they allowed Jason to punch them both off of him a page earlier, is probably why they give Tim this. And I’d have been cool with it if it had been better. My problem is, the way it’s written. I don’t feel like Dick’s and Tim’s actions are validated. I’m not cheering for them. I just think they look bad here. They’re smarter than this. And Tim isn’t this jealous and petty. I do think Jason is dumb with his last line though, even if the way the Titans went about confronting him this aggressively on so little information does actually seem like an excuse to pick a fight.

But look at that panel with Rose and Jason. Just look at it and tell me they’re not perfect.

So I hope this exceptionally long response actually answered your ask. I got very excited and maybe a little carried away :D

[geniejackman]

Harry Potter: What the Movies Got Right

Because the movies get a lot of shit for the ways that they differ from the books, here is a way too overly-detailed list of moments from the Harry Potter films which IN MY OPINION improve upon the source material.

Sorcerer’s Stone:

The Norbert Storyline: Cutting out the whole midnight hand-off of Norbert to Charlie’s friends story-line was a good move. It slowed down the plot in the book, and come on, how were Charlie’s friends able to sneak into Hogwarts in the first place? There are literally entire chapters of people trying to figure out ways around the schools security.

 Chamber of Secrets:

Nothing to add, the book and movie are almost entirely one and the same (Sure wish they’d followed through with this on some of the other movies. Lookin at you Half-Blood Prince).

-ONE THING THOUGH; at the end when Harry tricks Lucius Malfoy into freeing Dobby and you can hear him start to cast ‘Avada Kedavra’ at Harry. It’s a small and HILARIOUS addition. Like, really Lucius? The killing curse? At this little twelve-year-old, right in front of Dumbledore’s office, in broad day-light, over literally nothing? I heard somewhere that this was because Jason Isaacs thought he should say some spell but nothing was scripted, and Avada Kedavra was the only one he could think of. But it’s just really funny to think about Lucius legit about to murder a kid in public over losing his house-elf.

 Prisoner of Azkaban:

-Aunt Marge’s Big Mistake: I love that Marge blows up and floats out of the house, rather than just bouncing off the walls like in the book. Hysterical!

-Lupin scenes: Lupin talking about how Lilly “was there for me at a time when no one else was” and how she had a gift for finding beauty in people “even and most importantly when that person could not see it in themselves”… just… fucking David Thewlis man. Actually, all the Harry & Lupin conversations in the movie have this sweet parental energy that was mostly there in the books, it just feels so much more potent here thanks do Dan & David’s incredible chemistry.

-Harry’s Patronus Lessons: the powerful memory that finally gets him to cast the spell is thinking about his parents talking with him. Kind of an understated change from the books, but it helps to underscore that the memory doesn’t need to be big or even all that happy, just emotionally poignant.

 -“WHY DON’T YOU RUN ALONG AND PLAY WITH YOUR CHEMISTY SET?!?!?!?”

-Snape protects the kids: Even though Snape was being a dick the entire time in the Shrieking Shack, he still acts as a HUMAN FUCKING SHIELD between the kids and Wolf Lupin and even takes a blow to the chest while protecting them. Book Snape was unconscious the whole time. Also, Movie Snape is so much more sympathetic than Book Snape, fight me. More on this down the line.

 Goblet of Fire:

-Really scraping the bottom of the barrel here, because there ain’t much.

-David Tenant is fun as hell as Barty Crouch Jr: I mean, there isn’t much fleshed out motivation in the character in the movie besides being bat-shit-fucking-crazy, but hey, it’s fun to watch! Also, I love the added detail (which I believe was improvised by Tenant) of Jr’s lip twitch and how this gives him away when he’s pretending to be Moody in front of Crouch Sr.  

-Cedric’s bravery: It’s a very small thing, but in the book when Cedric and Harry realize something’s off in the graveyard, they don’t really react much, or even say anything. When Harry’s scar stars burning, my man Cedric has enough presence of mind to draw his wand, ask Harry what’s wrong, takes a defensive stance, and shouts “Who are you? What do you want?” bravely to an approaching Pettigrew. Guy spends his last few moments being an absolute champ. Hollywood did you wrong Robert Pat.

 Order of the Pheonix:

-The DA training sequences: They’re wonderful and full of teen-whimsiness and the score makes me happy. Seriously, go listen to the ‘Dumbledore’s Army’ track, it’ll make your day! https://youtu.be/fZane0CwAGg

undefined

Harry’s cheesy one liner which somehow still manages to be great: “Every great wizard has started out as nothing more than what we are now, students. If they can do it, why not us?”

-Neville’s Character growth: “We’re gonna make them proud Neville. That’s a promise.” Man, I really wish there had been scenes of Harry and Neville talking about their families in the books. There’s so much that they share in terms of past traumas. I like that they bring it up in the film, even if it’s a very quick scene.  

-Fred and George: It’s been said before, but the scene with Fred and George comforting a young student who’s had the Umbridge hand-slicing treatment is UNPRECEDENTED and I LOVE it. This helps show them as more than just loveable jokesters.

-“Neville Longbottom is it? How’s mum and dad” “Better, now that they’re about to be avenged!” FOUR FOR YOU NEVILLE LONBOTTOM, YOU GO NEVILLE LONGBOTTOM!

-Possession: I’m gonna be honest, this movie is my next-to-least-favorite of the adaptations. I’d be prepared to write it off as a bad movie altogether if it weren’t for the way they decide to end with the Ministry battle: In the book, Voldemort finishes dueling Dumbledore and starts possessing Harry, who tells Dumbledore to kill him. Possessed Harry says: “Kill me Dumbledore, death is nothing compared to this. Kill me. And I’ll see Sirius again.” This moment is really quick, and it’s not really made clear until the next book that Harry’s love and grief in this moment is what drove Voldemort out. In the movie, the scene gets more time and attention and shows Voldemort possessing Harry, forcing him to remember his worst memories of losing people he loves. For anyone who’s ever suffered from depression or anxiety, the way these horrible memories overwhelm Harry is shockingly familiar. But then, Ron, Hermione and the others come running in. The sight of them makes Harry remember all of the best moments with his friends: “You’re the weak one. And you’ll never know love, or friendship. And I feel sorry for you.” HOLY HELL. All the tears. Just all of them. I fuckin love this moment. Congrats Possession scene, you single-handedly saved this movie for me.

Half-Blood Prince:

Oooooh boy. Full disclosure, I kind of hate this movie. It’s just… it’s not ABOUT anything. Like, SO much was changed in Order of the Pheonix to make it tonally different from the book, AND YET: Sirius’s line in the OOTP film about how “we all have light and dark inside of us” is so cliched and not from the book at all, but it PAYS OFF and shapes the theme of the movie at the end when Dumbledore reinforces “It’s not how you are alike. It’s how you are not.” So yeah, not really from the book, but it’s at least trying to have a theme. HBP the movie is a mess. Instead of having a central theme, the main idea for the movie appears to be: “stuff is happening”.

-Despite this, there were one or two instances of “stuff is happening” which the film added that built positively on the book. One of those is, hear me out, the Burrow attack. HBP the book is pretty void of any action until the very end, and this addition (nonsensical as it is. Did they ever explain how the Death Eaters were able to break through the Ministry’s protective charms to get to the Burrow?) gives us some pretty cool visuals and some much needed tension. Too bad it’s totally meaningless as we see in the first few minutes of Deathly Hallows Part 1 that the Weasley’s have completely rebuilt the Burrow. Cause, ya know, magic.

-Draco on the Hogwarts Express: “Hogwarts. What a pathetic excuse for a school. I think I’d pitch myself off the Astronomy Tower if I thought I had to come back for another year.” HA! Oh the irony.

In general, the characterization of Draco is so much more engaging here than in the book. The fact that the movies are less exclusively only what Harry thinks and sees gives us opportunities to see more into other characters perspectives. Draco’s experiments in the Room of Requirement really add a lot to the characters emotional struggle. And boy howdy does Tom act the HELL out of the bathroom cry scene. Really makes you wish they’d followed through on that redemption arc in DH part 2 (more on that later).

-Last but not least; Slughorn and the Lilly fishbowl. HOLY SHIT is this scene powerful. Not only is it an incredibly touching story, but we get to see the parental and emotional aspects of Slughorn’s ‘collecting’ of promising students over the years. And the sadness of Slughorn’s unfinished sentence; “the day the bowl was empty… was the day that your mother….” Just, damn. I both love and hate this moment, because it adds something positive to HBP and that makes me mad because I guess I can’t totally hate it now.

 Deathly Hallows Part 1

-Opening montage with Hermione Obliviating her parents. In the book, Hermione tells the boys about how she did this in order to make them see how much she’s already sacrificed to their cause. But damn. SEEING it really makes it even more devastating.

-Hedwig’s Death. Damn, just typing those words hurt my heart. I really liked that Harry lets her fly free at the beginning, only to have her come back during the sky battle to save Harry. It’s sad in the book having her die in her cage, but they really amped up the cry factor for the movie by having her sacrifice herself.

-“Hey losers! He isn’t here.” Goddamnit, Neville just keeps wracking up those ‘Biggest Badass’ and ‘Best Character Growth’ points. It’s great foreshadowing for what’s to come with his hero moment in the Final Battle.

-Harry and Hermione’s dance. I know some people have called this scene unnecessary and awkward, but here me out. The dancing itself is, in my opinion, EXACTLY how awkward fools like Harry and Hermione would dance, and the moments where they slowly change from depressed and dead-eyed to light-hearted and goofy, it shows you that despite all the hardships they’ve gone through, they’re just kids. A little awkward, a little uncertain, but still able to enjoy the small things in life. Also, the little moment where they linger for a moment all serious after the dance always played to me like “hey, you know how Ron just stormed out after accusing us of having a thing? Maybe there’s a possibility that we actually do… nah.” It’s a nice little moment.

-Scabier’s creeper moments with Hermione. That scene in the forest when she’s put up the enchantments so they can’t see her, but he can smell her. It’s a great acting moment between Emma and the dude playing Scabier (even if this should have been Greyback).

-Draco at Malfoy Manor. Small but touching scene; when Draco is brought in to make sure the Death Eaters have caught Harry, he does the same thing in the book where he claims he “can’t be sure”. In the book, Draco says this while refusing to look Harry in the eye. In the movie, he looks Harry dead in the face and looks scared to death while asking “What’s wrong with his face?” Just… the concern and fear dripping off of him is DELICIOUS. (AGAIN WITH THE REDEMPTION ARC!!! THE POTENTIAL WAS THERE WARNER BROTHERS!!!!!)

-Hermione Tortured. Not really all that much was changed for this scene, but Bellatrix carving ‘mudblood’ into Hermione’s arm and the way it evoked Holocaust concentration camp victims was a stroke of genius.

-Dobby at Malfoy Manor. Way to give this ‘lil dude a moment to shine! Specifically; “of course I can, I’m an elf!” “Dobby never meant to kill anyone. Dobby only meant to mame or seriously injure!” And then… the death scene. I love that in the movie, Dobby gets a longer farewell. “Such a beautiful place… to be with friends. Dobby is happy to be with his friend. Harry Potter.” UGH! At least give me some warning before you rip my heart out.

 Deathly Hallows Part 2

-Snape vs. McGonagall; I’m torn, because I love the scene in the book where Harry defends McGonagall against the Carrows leading into the scene where she confronts Snape, but I also really love this big dramatic scene in the Great Hall with the “How dare you stand where he stood?” and McGonagall dueling Snape. Alan’s expression as Maggie steps up is PRICELESS.

-Harry and Malfoy in the Room or Requirement; “Why didn’t you tell her? Bellatrix? You knew it was me.” Yeah Warner Brothers, why didn’t he tell her? Gonna maybe follow through with this redemption-arc you seem to be building up? No?? OKAY THEN!!!

-Snape’s death scene. Changing the setting was a stroke of genius. This scene is wonderfully done and we all know it.

-The Prince’s Tale. Okay, I feel like I’m going to take some flak for this. At first, I wasn’t thrilled with how much was cut out of Snape’s flashbacks concerning his friendship with Lilly and their falling out. But when you really think about it, they cut out all of the really gross stuff. For instance, it’s never implied that he enjoys bullying people for fun, he doesn’t call her a mudblood, he isn’t shown being toxic towards Lilly and jealous of James, never has the moment where he asks Voldemort to kill Harry & James and leave Lilly for him, and in general is WAY less problematic than in the books. This might be an instance of a ‘less is more’ win in favor of the film. I know, I’m as shocked as you are.

-Malfoy’s Redemption: So this might be confusing for some folks since this wasn’t in the final cut, but here’s a link for what they originally had in mind for Draco’s redemption arc: https://youtu.be/hS5Z2YbyePg

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I am SO MAD that this was left out of the final cut, since it’s so obviously built up in part 1. Also, it would have been a HUGE improvement on the source material since Draco effectively has NO character growth there. This moment, where he makes a huge stand by yelling “POTTER” (also, GREAT inverse from the way we’ve become accustomed to hearing Draco sneer at Harry by invoking his surname over the years), throws him the wand, and runs back to join the fray, is a great addition to the series. I really wish the filmmakers had stuck with this plan.

 Incredibly long ranting list over.

[hellyeahheroes]

As rumors circulate about The Batman Who Laughs getting an ongoing after his miniseries wraps up I was thinking of heroes and villains that I would want to see fight him and I realized something.

I’m torn on whenever put Cass on that list.

On the one hand she is certainly a logical choice  as one of few people who can take down regular Batman in hand-to-hand combat, certainly can take the Joker (fucking fight me) and her ability to read her opponent's body language might even allow her some edge on Laughs’ combination of prep time and unpredictability.

On the other hand...

Cassandra’s theme is of redemption, of finding a new purpose and overcoming your past through the bat and everything it represents. Moreover, Bruce is Cass’ father, both in a sense of father figure and in sense of adoptive parent and I have no doubt she loves. He is more her parent than either David Cain or Shiva, that’s for sure. 

Batman Who Laughs is a perversion of both the bat as the symbol AND of her father as a person. His very existence is taking everything Cass believes in, everything she looks up to and dragging it through the mud. More, fighting him means she has to witness her dad being transformed into the worst monster.

I think that both the symbol and the person have a level of importance to her stronger than any of her siblings or that they managed to build some level of disillusionment with Bruce and the bat that makes their relationship less vulnerable emotionally. Damian admittingly less than the others but he is also the youngest and makes up for it with his arrogance carrying him on in worst moments. It might be because she is one of the most compassionate and empathetic of the Batfamily members and we had people in the past pointing out how she can likely see through Bruce’s facade of an asshole and see how much it actually pains him to push people away. Jason and Dick can get frustrated with his assholery and if they see an evil version of him can use it to shrug off any dissonance such encounter could cause. 

But Cass? Thanks to her ability to read body language she can see Bruce for who he really is, a self-destructive man who would want nothing more but to embrace his children but who keeps pushing them away due to some deluded ideas he doesn’t deserve happiness and they are better distancing themselves from him. She understands him deeper than others but that also makes her emphasize with him more. And that leaves her vulnerable. She might be the one person to fully comprehend true scope of tragic fate than to another Bruce was turning into Batman Who Laughs. And it would probably feel to her like a stab in the heart.

And how does he move? How Cass abilities read him? His body was mutated but does she still recognize it as Bruce’s body forced to dance like Joker’s would? Does he still have his own body language but now twisted and corrupted, jokeresque gestures where they do not belong? How wrong could his body language feel to her? Worse, what if she can sense traces of a man he once was, trapped inside this monster, trapped in his own body?

What I’m saying is that as a fan of good stories I see a lot of potential in having Cass face this particular monster, more for the resulting drama and character insight than the fight itself. But as a fan of the character, I also cannot imagine a scenario where the encounter doesn’t leave her shaken or in tears.

- Admin

[themattress]

Unpopular Opinion Re:Batgirl

I’m going to come right out and say it...

Barbara Gordon was the worst Batgirl, and The Killing Joke ultimately did her a favor.

I’m not saying she’s bad as Batgirl, she’s fine, she’s OK. But there has rarely been a version of her as Batgirl that has really stood out to me. The ‘60s TV show version wasn’t allowed to actually get into fights. The DCAU version had a great run in the middle of her career, but she started out lame and ended up lame. The Alicia Silverstone version was a complete joke. The version on The Batman TV show had issues in how her initial arc was written and seemed like a composite of Babs and Stephanie Brown. Even the Rosario Dawson-voiced LEGO version was unremarkable - she was already a competent police commissioner, and she’s just suddenly thrown the costume and name by Batman rather than by her own choice. And do I even need to begin on everything that was wrong with The Killing Joke DTV version?

This all comes down to a core problem with the original comics version: her reason for becoming Batgirl. It would work in most other superhero comics, but not in Batman. The core “Bat Family” is defined by their past trauma, it is what their motivations are all rooted in. Bruce Wayne, Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake...they all suffered traumatic incidents and heavy loss that lead to them adopting their superhero monikers. Most of Batman’s Rogues Gallery are the other side of the coin - people whose past trauma and losses led to them becoming villains rather than heroes (the Joker being the biggest case of it, as his trauma was evidently so great that it drove him so insane to the point where he can’t even remember what that trauma was!) And then we have Barbara Gordon, who becomes Batgirl because she’s a fangirl of Batman and isn’t allowed to get a job in law enforcement by her loving but overprotective dad despite her abilities. One of these thing is not like the other.

Up until after The Killing Joke, Barbara Gordon just didn’t seem to fit with the rest of the cast. She never escaped feeling like token representation for the sake of it, not allowed to have the same psychological depth as her male colleagues or the villains. Now, I’m NOT defending the choice to cripple her when it was made, since Babs becoming Oracle was not pre-planned and it was just a case of “fridging”. But I do believe that it was retroactively the right thing to do because of how much more interesting she is as Oracle, how much deeper and more interesting she is, how much greater and thus more compelling her struggles are, and frankly how much more badass she is. As Oracle, Barbara Gordon is now a woman who used to pride herself so much on her physical abilities and then lost them in a traumatic event. She now fits perfectly with the rest of the cast! I think that’s the point The Killing Joke DTV was going for, but it botched it horribly by portraying Barbara in such a bad, unlikable manner.

It’s part of why I hated DC restoring her to being Batgirl, which is the equivalent of turning Nightwing back into Robin - both of the Batgirls that followed Barbara after she became Oracle were a lot better in the role. Cassandra Cain had an excellent backstory and motivation for becoming Batgirl, not to mention the coolest costume. And I only took issue with Stephanie Brown becoming Batgirl because Cass stuck around as the stupidly-named “Black Bat”, literally indistinguishable from her as Batgirl, which made Steph taking the mantle feel needless and redundant - if Cass had just stepped down for real and served as Steph’s mentor figure instead of Barbara, that would have been perfect, since Steph really IS an ideal successor to the mantle given the close friendship she’s always had with Cass, her background and skills, and how both in-universe and out it’s a redemption for the horrifically misogynistic turn she had as Robin where she was brutally temporarily killed off.

What I’m getting at is that I don’t hate Barbara Gordon as Batgirl, since she was likable and admirable and I think we should all be grateful to her for originating the mantle (we do not speak of “Bat Girl” Betty Kane), I think the truth is that she was never anything special as Batgirl and wasn’t even particularly interesting or matching with the rest of the Bat Family. Oracle was a big upgrade for her, and both Cass and Steph were big upgrades for Batgirl.

[oh-mother-of-darkness]

asks (9)

Anonymous said: if you have the time, could we maybe please have your absolute /worst/ headcanons about Dick mourning Damian? before/during Spyral? btw u are an absolute gift :*

Shoot I meant to put this one into the fic today too. Oh well. Damian and Dick angst is here

Anonymous said: everytime I see something about damian it reminds me of you

The highest praise I’ve ever received :’)

Anonymous said: do you know of other batblogs that don't do ships?

Uhhhhhh I don’t think so? I can’t think of anyone else that’s entirely ship-free, but frankly I don’t follow very many people. How bout this? If any of y'all ARE ship-free, reply in the notes. That way we’ll know :)

Anonymous said: Song recs: "Centuries" by Fall Out Boy (Justice League), "Remember The Name" by Fort Minor ft. Styles of Beyond (this is THE Batfam song!), "Counting Stars" by OneRepublic (Dick), "All The Right Moves" by OneRepublic (Batkids), "Tiptoe" by Imagine Dragons (Batkids), "Warrior" by Beth Crowley (Batgirls), "Shatter Me" by Lindsey Stirling ft. Lzzy Hale (Babs), "Disarm" by The Civil Wars (Jason), "Demons" by Imagine Dragons (Jason), "Afterlife" by Ingrid Michaelson (Batkids).

Oooooooh thank you these are very nice! I hadn’t heard most of them

Anonymous said: Batfam/kids song recs! "Renegades" by X-Ambassadors, "When The Darkness Comes" by Colbie Caillat, "Royals" and "Rule the World" by Lorde, "Midnight" and "Fix You" by Coldplay and "Bad Blood" by Bastille. Also for Dick: "Pompeii" by Bastille and "Hopeless Wanderer" by Mumford & Sons.

Thanks! Idk if this was one person or two, but please continue to send me music, y'all, I like it

Anonymous said: no need to be batfamily centric, what comics would you recommend for someone getting into comics now?

Red Robin (2009)

Batgirl (2009)

Batman and Robin (2009)

Batman and Robin (2011)

Robin: Son of Batman (2015)

Batman: Under the Red Hood

Batman: The Black Mirror

Batman: The Court of Owls

Batman: Death of the Family

Good enough for a start? I don’t read a lot outside the batfamily titles, I’m afraid

Anonymous said: Omg I love your writing. Can I request Damian and Jason fighting about Damian and Jon's missions?

Hm I’m a lil backlogged just now, but I think there’s a pretty good chance that Jon will show up eventually. Just probably not real soon :/

Anonymous said: I'm new to the DC comic world, but I'm a bit curious as to how fans feel/reacted about one thing: Talia drugging and taking advantage of Bruce? Do fans feel the same about that as they would if that had happened to a female character? Was it a big deal? I was shocked to find out it had happened, and want to know how other fans feel. Did the writers ever later address it?

Oh boy

In my experience there are two schools of thought:

1) People that like Talia and choose to use the older version of canon, where Bruce and Talia were in love and the rape never happened

2) People that hate Talia

As always, I’d prefer not to say which side I come down on, and I won’t answer any personal questions related to Talia. It’s a bit of a hot button topic, and I prefer to avoid conflict. Thank you. Let’s continue.

Here’s the thing, anon-- Damian was created by a writer named Grant Morrison in 2006. Before that, there was a storyline where Bruce and Talia had a baby, and she gave him up for adoption without telling him. Historically, Bruce and Talia’s relationship has been pretty straightforward: they liked each other, and any romantic interactions were consensual. 

Morrison changed that. I can’t say for certain why, but you can read a bit more about my opinion of him over here. In Morrison’s version, Damian was conceived by rape, for eugenic purposes; they were trying to create the ideal heir from al Ghul and Wayne DNA.

Talia drugged Bruce’s drink, and yes, that is absolutely rape. No doubt about it. Rape. It’s disgusting and unnecessary, and it doesn’t really make sense, considering the thirty-five years of material that came before Morrison’s Talia. 

Because of that, it’s a divisive topic. There are a lot of people who argue that since Talia’s actions were out of character for her (and since Morrison went on to make her do other out of character things, like murdering her own son) the rape should be removed from canon. Those folks generally substitute the older storyline where Bruce and Talia were in love. 

That kind of thinking really isn't that uncommon for comic fans because the way comic canon is constructed-- multiple writers with varying skill levels who frequently produce overlapping or contradictory accounts of the same events-- presents us with multiple versions to choose from. A small and unrelated example: in his original version, Tim Drake dropped out of high school before graduation. In the n52, he graduated early. I prefer the older version, so even when I read the n52, I think of Tim as a high school drop out.

There are also canon story lines that I just don’t acknowledge, Battle for the Cowl being the easiest example. I know that the characterization is awful, so I pretend it never happened.

Morrison dramatically changed who Talia is as a character, not just at that specific point, but continually from 2006 to 2013. Since he retired, Talia has been shifting back to her older incarnation (again, see the link from above). You’re going to find a lot of folks who are happy with that, and those are likely to be the same people that edit the rape out of Talia’s history. 

You’re also going to find folks on the other side of the issue-- people that acknowledge the rape and believe that it would be wrong to edit it out of history. Morrison’s Talia, while mischaracterized, has been around for a long time with some very dramatic effects. Damian’s redemption storyline, death, resurrection, and general personality all depend on Talia’s action while Morrison was writing her-- if you choose to ignore all of that, Damian as we know him can’t exist, and he’s been a giant part of the general bat canon for the last eleven years. 

Beyond that, rape and filicide are awful, horrifying crimes, and they both happened within Talia’s canon. They’re the current version. They haven’t been retconned. As a matter of fact, Morrison isn’t the only one circulating that version-- the recent animated movies about Damian explicitly include the rape, and those began in 2014. 

You also made an excellent point when you asked about gender-- male rape victims are treated incredibly poorly in fiction and life, and I think it’s fair to argue that ignoring Bruce’s canonical rape contributes to that. Bruce isn’t the only member of the batfamily with this issue either. Dick was raped by Tarantula in 2002 (he asked her not to touch him, he was in shock and immobile, and she had sex with him anyway), and that writer (Devon Grayson) didn’t even call it rape. Would the rape of either of those men be treated differently if they were women? I don’t know. I can’t really answer a hypothetical. But it’s worth thinking about.

When it comes to Talia, I’d say my experience with general opinion has been about a 50/50 split? That being said, I am very young, and I’ve only been in this game for five years. I can’t tell you how any of this went over in 2006 because I was a ten year old at the time, and I don’t think I know anyone older who could tell me.

As far as writers go... I don’t recall Bruce’s emotional state being addressed in any way. Most of the time, writers don’t directly talk about it. Some of them seem to lean towards the earlier version by framing Bruce and Talia as a love story; however, that doesn’t mean that by omitting the rape, they retcon it. People are raped by their partners or spouses all the time. Saying that Bruce loved Talia doesn’t automatically erase the rape. Implying that Bruce and Talia had consensual sex before or after Damian’s conception doesn’t automatically erase the rape. Frankly it would be very hard to retcon, since there would have to be some kind of statement within the dialogue denying any kind of drugging. 

I don’t know if any of this will ever be addressed, but I’ve written a lot more than I meant to now, so I’m going to stop. I hope I answered all your questions. If I didn’t, you could try sending me a message instead of an ask, and we can talk more about it in private

@another-nameless-person said: The CTC story reminds me so much of my own family omg. I am so happy I'm not the only one with a big family who does this too. I'm so happy I've since moved out of my moms and can stash my own junk food at home lol

Right? I’m only just now kicking the habit of hiding my food. I also recently realized that I’m allowed to drink directly from the bottles now, which is fun

@coredesignixandnekonee said: Do you think, in a world where Nightwing knows Starfire, Oracle, Miss Martian, Red Arrow/Arsenal, and Kid Flash (Wally West1) that there's a "red headed friends of Robin/Nightwing" club where they hang out and complain about him with tea and cookies?

Wally, dipping Oreos in his milk: listen guys I know for a fact he isn’t sleeping and I think we’re gonna have to make him. Whose turn is it