#i think jensen coming out as queer might do this too but maybe on a smaller scale

[jensensitive]

the thing is i actually think that soldier boy hooking up with a guy would flip a switch in sooo many straight men's minds

[dotthings]

More and more Destiel shippers are figuring it out. You know that thing some of us have been trying to get people to understand for years. This wasn't all of a sudden just now. It's been growing more and more evident for years and we've been pointing it out for years.

Maybe now more people will understand what Jensen fans in the Destiel lane have been trying to say. All this time.

Huh gee you think maybe while spn was running and it was under a completely different corporate structure and corporate entities that Jensen didn't feel as free to show his support as openly, yet even then, Jensen showed his support plenty and people just didn't want to listen. And it wasn't just anti-Destiels it was Destiel shippers too. Who closed their eyes to Jensen's allyship towards fans, but also to his actual support for Destiel as part of the story. While having to maintain the company line oh it's just a fandom thing, no queer coding, no canon here shhhhh.

Nothing about this should be a surprise. It is refreshing though, to see this more open era of spn unfold.

Maybe people will understand now the tightrope wire Jensen had to walk while spn was running.

What's he going to do now, fire himself?

Some people are going to keep clinging to old narratives. Some will do it because of Dabb era and now they're mad at Cas and they disliked the DeanCas emotional dynamics of Dabb era so they grab onto things as a lifeline to tell themselves Destiel can never happen now, which isn't for phobic reasons. They feel the way they feel. Protecting themselves emotionally.

Some will do it on mild heteronormative biases, might be dislodged, Jensen's openness might have a positive impact there, in Jensen's lane particularly.

Some will still do it on more openly hostile phobic motivations and use dog whistles (and that comes from a few Jensen stans and from brosonlies).

Turning up the flame slowly makes a lot of sense when you think of the volatile history of this fanbase over Destiel.

And people don't have to ship Destiel. This has nothing to do with whether people ship Destiel or not. I could care less if people ship Destiel or not. It's about not treating Destiel like a disease, a blight, a show ruining, fandom ruining monster.

It's part of the story, it's part of the fandom, it's part of the spn universe. Antis can scream and yell against it and cling to old outdated narratives as their last outpost all they want.

It's not going to stop what's happening. Things are not going to go backwards.

This is just a warm-up.

[mydemonsdrivealimo]

5, 7, 16, 18

OFC for Bryce & Jensen, but feel free to tell me about Kennedy, too.

And answer this one MF. lol JK JK

thanks for the ask lol (i think ill save kennedys for another time as im currently working more on their character)

5. How did you figure out your oc's identity?

none of my characters are cis/straight so for me its just a matter of figuring out What they are, not If they are. jensens was pretty easy to figure out ngl bc he has a very similar standpoint as i do. i gave him a label coming into the fandom, but as time has gone on i realized that he is just not a person for labels and just prefers to Be (like myself). his aspec identity took a little longer just bc i was trying to write him as allo and shocker i failed, so after admitting that maybe he wasnt the rest just fell into place

okay and bryces i knew since like,, book 2. i came into the fandom everyone and their mother was having a fit that bryce wasnt proposing to mc by book 1 but like,, did we ever consider that that was for a reason? maybe the fact that he took 3 books to even want a relationship had something to do with him being demiro? (but no, ofc not, bc god forbid we expect the allos and straights to willingly admit that characters might be aspec). n e ways hes so obviously demiro and to see that erased may hurt my aspec self a little but thats fine :') as far as him being pan, he will just flirt with anyone and everyone all the time and it is a threat. he doesnt give two fucks about gender, if he vibes w someone, he's interested, and thats been clear since day one

7. Is there something that could cause your oc to question their identity? What?

not really, no. jensen is still,, iffy on gender (its so hard for him to explain like he doesnt really relate to the idea of being a man but masculinity is fine but he doesnt quite feel androgenous or anything Else enough to go by they/them pronouns--its just a lot for him lol) so thats something that he def questions a lot. but as far as sexuality, hes perfectly comfortable going by queer/grayace and thats what feels right to him. same for bryce, hes comfortable and confident in his identities, so nothing would really make him question it

16. Did you ever change an oc's identity when they were already established? Why?

yes ofc bc they develop and evolve like actual people, not just stagnant character sheets. jensen wasnt aspec originally, nor did he go by queer. i changed it bc, as i got to understand and know this version of him better, i realized he 1. wasnt allo lol but 2. wouldn't have been too keen on labels, either

18. Do you prefer to give your ocs specific labels, or keep it unspecified? Why? If applicable, do you change their labels depending on circumstance?

it depends honestly. i think choices fandom (and people in general) is overly obsessed w character sexuality labels (considering how many straight creators there are and how few queer creators there are). honestly i wouldve loved to leave jensen label-less/unspecified because realistically i think thats just how he is (even if people ask, even about his aspec identity, he'll just say queer bc he doesnt really care), but coming into the fandom, that didnt really feel like an option. and for characters like bryce, im happy to label him because i feel that its an important part of his character, not just in my hc but should be important in all hcs. im happy to label him bc, not only do i find it important as an aspec person to see that aspec representation (considering that nearly everyone in this fandom would cry if they had to actually accept that characters in relationships can still be aspec--especially confirmed aspec characters, but thats for another time), but i also think its just a huge part of his character and something he would be really proud of

[cecilysass]

I have a kid who is an obsessive Supernatural fan who forced me to watch many, many episodes. So I’ve thought a lot about that show as an heir to XF.

To me it’s a pretty obvious line to draw. For one, Supernatural filmed in Vancouver, had Kim Manners, had Mitch Pileggi, had the Unremarkable House, had lots of other common cast/crew, etc. There were XF references, too.

But also just because it was a show about two protagonists who traveled all over the U.S. staying in crappy motels, investigating supernatural cases, sacrificing personal life for the calling. It had mytharc plot over seasons as well as MOTW episodes. Plus, the angsty protagonists’ deep-seated psychological motive is trying to right a childhood trauma brought about by otherworldly causes.

The two main characters (Sam and Dean Winchester, for those who never watched) are brothers, and they’re definitely different from Mulder and Scully. There is no believer / skeptic dichotomy. They’re younger, more Midwestern, more overtly traditionally masculine than Mulder (especially in early seasons), not law enforcement (although they actually impersonate FBI agents constantly). They wear flannel and listen to classic rock. They make a big deal of being folksy regular people and having common sense (especially Dean).

I always troll my kid by saying the show was probably supposed to originally be some 2000s Bush administration version of the XF: “Give me Mulder and Scully, but make it so that they’re not coastal elite smarty pants liberals, and instead a pair of dumb good-looking bros with weapons from the heartland that you want to have a beer with.”

That’s an overstatement. I don’t think that’s really fair to the show, or at least not fair to Supernatural the way it evolved over its zillion seasons. They DEFINITELY started to complicate masculinity on Supernatural. Their most ardent fans got real young and real interested in queer relationships. I won’t even get into all this. There are like forty million Supernatural Tumblrs.

But Supernatural actually did have kind of the same problem / strength of XF in that it really depended on its two main characters. There was very little ensemble. There WERE secondary characters. (Very notably Misha Collins as Castiel, who was famously shipped with Dean. Destiel remains the top AO3 ship of all time to this day, I believe). But Castiel was only semi-regularly on the show, kind of like the Gunmen on XF.

The show also had regular antagonists (like Crowley, played by XF alum Mark Sheppard). But the show was kind of notorious with fans for killing off Sam and Dean’s allies, especially female characters. It always ended up being Sam and Dean alone again.

One effect of Mulder and Scully being the only main characters on their show was that it made the ship seem sort of inevitable. It made it seem like it was those two characters versus the world, which is inherently kind of romantic. You might THINK that the two protagonists of Supernatural being brothers would rule this out, but you would be wrong. That ship name, if you don’t know, is Wincest (because the brothers’ last name is Winchester). I believe that Wincest is the second biggest ship after Destiel. So yeah, that’s a thing, even when the show was definitely not trying for it. Two main characters with scant supporting cast are gonna be shipped come what may.

Maybe it’s obvious, but I don’t love Supernatural like I do XF. Supernatural has some strengths for sure. But in the end it’s about the smartypants protagonists and the very specific dynamic between them. I love nerdy Mulder and Scully, and I especially love their intellectual sparring, which was written by people who cared about the substance of what they were saying, and not just by people who wanted “banter.”

Second, the acting was top shelf—especially the acting together. Yes, OP, I completely agree, the interplay of GA and DD off of one another? Heart-stopping and enthralling. No shade on Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki, who were indeed great on Supernatural … but I’d watch GA and DD do insurance commercials together. It’s a cliche to talk about their chemistry, but there really was something in their scenes.

Finally, yeah, listen, I am emotionally hooked by MSR, and I just don’t think I could go down the Wincest road.

Sorry for the essay, OP. I’m just a really bad ranter, and you unleashed some thoughts I guess lol.

what's really insane about the x-files is that nearly every show that's somewhat followed its formula (bones, lucifer, castle, etc) keeps some amalgamation of mulder and scully as its main couple, but they feel the need to supplement that main couple with an ensemble cast that are in nearly every episode. mulder and scully are pretty much it for the x-files. of course there's skinner and the gunmen, but they don't appear even in a majority of the episodes (and certainly not in a major way). there's probably a lot one could say about why, but i think the reason it works is because scully and mulder are so rich with characterization. for me, they're the closest movie/tv gets to real people, even if their connection to each other is beyond what any of us could have in a normal relationship. they're so multi-faceted, so complex, so contradictory. like, mulder's incredibly empathetic but can be a jerk. scully's by the book but she'll be held in contempt of congress for what matters. even something like scully's relationship with her father is so complicated in a way that it churns out episodes like never again or beyond the sea. the way david duchovny and gillian anderson act against each other on screen is heart-stopping, enthralling. even when they're a trainwreck, you can't look away. it's just so interesting to me how, even when shows are blatantly pulling from the x-files (and are good in their own way!) they're too afraid to really do the x-files. y'know?

[charcubed]

Let's talk about Supernatural 15x07, "Last Call."

Or as I like to call it, "the episode that makes me go feral because it tells us so much about Dean's sexuality, character, and arc." 

YES others have written meta! YES I will talk about it myself for the satisfaction! I LOVE IT SO MUCH.

This post was originally a thread on Twitter and I am crossposting it to my blog.

Alt image IDs are included in that linked Twitter thread!

Join me on this journey.

What's the context of this episode? Dean's been kind of down/depressed, feeling hopeless in the face of the idea that they have to defeat God (and not really working towards that goal much), and he's mid-divorce with Cas. He goes out on this solo case to try to clear his head.

And he ends up at Swayze's Bar. 

 Look, there are many things to be said about this. Dean loves Patrick Swayze. Arguably has a CRUSH on Swayze. It's very tied up in Dean pretending not to like "chick flicks" but he secretly does, which is queer coding. This was a Choice™️.

Speaking of Choices™️: professional actors made many here. Deliberately. 

 Dean is smacked on the ass by a woman and then Lee smacks him on the ass too. Dean and Lee CONSTANTLY have physical familiarity and fond eye contact. I will limit myself to 1 paragraph about this lest I list it all.

My point is that I just really need every person to digest and accept the fact that this is textually bi Dean. Not subtext; it's TEXT. 

Dean and Lee had a relationship. Their history is alluded to in touch and in words. They had an orgy together. Dean's bisexuality is not repressed.

It's also now canon that Dean tries to hide that he can sing well. Most people don't know (like Sam) but some do (Lee). Hence "Eye of the Tiger" callback.

And so: that's also the implication for his sexuality. Dean singing ON STAGE with bi lighting is him being ready to be Out.

They dedicated an entire half an ep at minimum to emphasizing he's bi... and to Dean having a conversation with someone he (initially) trusts about potentially having a break from hunting, and what that could mean.

LEE: You're chasing missing persons, huh? I thought you'd be on to something bigger by now, like the Loch Ness Monster... Bigfoot.

DEAN: Trust me, uh, bigger doesn't always equal better. Besides, who's gonna look out after the little guy? God certainly isn't.

LEE: Damn, brother, that's dark.

DEAN: Yeah, it's been a rough, uh... it's been a rough decade, Lee.

LEE: Yeah.

DEAN: But that's a conversation for a different time, 'cause this, this right here, this is all right.

LEE: Well, I'm glad you approve. This is nothing you can't have, man.

DEAN: Oh, come on. Who's gonna kill the bad guys?

LEE: Somebody else. Dean, how many lives you think you saved, huh? Hundreds? Thousands? You deserve a break, bro. Hell, you might even deserve two.

"But Lee turns out to be a villain!" some might say. "Isn't the point that giving up hunting is bad?" 

Nope. 

Lee's a DARK MIRROR for Dean. He exists to exhibit the truths behind Dean's desires, and then what they'd look like if they turned bad. Take it from him: "I am you."

There are LAYERS here. You can't focus on the dark side and ignore the truths that take place in the (often bi) light. 

The singing? The conversations about taking a break? Throwing men out of the bar, which is framed heroically? "Road House rules" (another Choice™️)?

NONE of that was bad. It shows what Dean wants. 

Things only get bad–literally and visually–when Dean's tied up as Lee suddenly says wrong things in the dark. 

The contrast exists to show that maintaining Goodness is a choice, and Dean would have no problem upholding that.

LEE: It's called a marid. It's a freaky-looking little thing, isn't it? [Lee laughs, and Dean stares at him, incredulous] Ah. As long as you feed it, it gives you money, it gives you health, everything you dreamed of.

DEAN: And so, what, it just costs innocent lives?

LEE: Dean, you and I both know no one's innocent. After everything we've done, aren't... aren't we owed a little happiness, huh? Don't we deserve that much?

DEAN: Listen to yourself. "We're owed." "We deserve." Come on, man. You're not God. Hell, God's not even God.

LEE: Good or bad... the world doesn't care. No one cares, Dean.

DEAN: Well, I do.

LEE: Yeah. And that's what got you here. Now, takes a while to drain a man, but listen to me. Don't worry about it, all right? Don't worry because once you lose a couple of pints, you just fall asleep, and then it'll be over.

[Lee pats Dean on the shoulder]

DEAN: Lee.

LEE: This... this is not how I wanted this to go, Dean. When that blonde girl walked in here last night, I should've know, you know, Dean Winchester, the righter of wrongs, you were gonna keep digging, and you were gonna figure me out. And if it's got to be you or me, well, I got to pick me, man.

"No one cares, Dean."

"Well, I do."

It's a reminder to himself as much as it is to Lee. It's a re-centering of purpose that he sorely needs.

And what's also key? Lee is human, but is now a "monster" in Dean's words. Because Lee lost his ability to care, Dean can't abide by that.

(Side note: bonus for the fact that Lee dies up against a wall by being impaled and he coughs up blood. You know who doesn’t cough up blood in their very weird and unrealistic death scene? Dean in the finale.)

Remember: Lee is a dark mirror for Dean. "I am you." 

By fighting and (tragically) killing Lee, Dean "kills" the darker side of himself. The side that's struggling to keep going right now... AND the side that fears eventually wanting a break means you must be selfish and stop caring.

He can keep going. He can find strength to fight God–and in the end, take a break and CHOOSE peace. It won't make him dark. He's the most caring man on Earth, even when it's hard. That’s reinforced later. 

Isn't he owed a little happiness? And that's not in the having. It's in just being.

The bonus is what's going on with Cas in this episode. 

Dean's clearing his head and finding his center again while Cas is calling him. 

Come home. I need you. Remember what matters.

And again, contrast: Lee turns out not to be "real/true" in the way Dean thought he was. But Cas IS.

And after Dean goes through all of this... he's grounded again, he recognizes that even amongst questions of what God controls there are still choices to be made, he's reminded that letting his caring heart lead him is priority, he's lost another friend... 

He comes home to Cas.

It's awkward. They're still distanced. 

But this episode is a turning point for Dean. He's not angry at Cas anymore, he wants to talk, he's ready to move forward... he just doesn't know how to yet.

And if you follow the through-line... then you get Rowena saying "fix it"... and then after that is the Purgatory prayer.

I just !!! 

S15 is packed with Dean development to hone in towards the end of his arc, but "Last Call" manages to hit SO many buttons. 

• He's always been bi, & is ready to be Out

• He can want a break–& maybe run a bar like the Roadhouse

• Caring is at the core of who he is

It's about the CHOICE. It's about wanting to live your truths, and that "caring" can mean many things–from defeating God and saving the world, to making the hard choices when it counts, to maybe running a bar where people are safe.

14x10 and its matching Texan Star also say hello:

DEAN: How come you always have a boyfriend?

PAMELA: How come you only want what you can't have?

DEAN: Whoa.

PAMELA: Besides, you don't want me. You just like to flirt. I'm a psychic, so I kinda know.

DEAN: All right.

PAMELA: So, still not ready to sell the bar, huh? It's a lot of money.

DEAN: Sell? This bar? This is my dream.

PAMELA; Yeah.

And I recognize that rereading this info is sad(der) now because of what we got in the end, so uh... sorry. 

But that's half the point: it's repeatedly blatantly clear what we were meant to get, down to deliberate echoes in word choice–caring, happiness, deserve, even Roadhouse.

Dean was meant to choose to take a break, maybe run a bar–whether on Earth or in Heaven. At minimum, if Dean was meant to end up in Heaven, he was meant to choose it with eyes wide open. And the next time the phone rang with Cas' name (15x19), he RAN for him. He was VERY ready.

And the whole season tells you that. This episode is just my favorite.

So... thanks for letting me ramble on about it!!! 

DEAN WINCHESTER: BI ICON, ONCE-LOVER OF LEE WEBB, THE MOST CARING MAN ON EARTH WHO DESERVED TO CHOOSE PEACE AFTER GAINING HIS FREEDOM, & SOULMATE TO AN ANGEL

And a very big thank you to the talented kings Jensen Ackles & Christian Kane, and their longstanding friendship. They gave me many rights with their acting choices. 

Here's an iconic bonus for the road.

[castiel-left-his-mark-on-me]

Hi, Ary, very inactive ex-mutual(i think???) here. Good to see you thriving! ♥ It's been a while since I've dipped my head into cockles stuff. Could I perchance maybe ask uuuuum tf is going on??? lol I see Mish apparently confirmed he used to stay over at Jensen's in Van, and heard newbs were apparently freaking out about it and getting a bit messy, which I get that, business as usual. But I'm also seeing shit about spin-offs? And Jared getting in a twitter fight with Jensen, causing/resulting in stans to going feral and sending hate?? I know you're not as big a fan of Jar, but that's part of why I figured I'd ask you, you usually have a really level head about this kinda stuff. If you don't wanna answer publically, or at all, that's totally chill!

Hey, Rhi! We're still mutuals! Of course we're still mutuals! When I saw the notification of your ask, I was like "Hey! I haven't seen you in a while!" and my husband was like "???" and I said "Tumblr" and he said "Oh."

It was a wild time haha.

In any case, welcome back to the dumpster fire! We are obviously still a mess. So to catch you up, I guess I will start by summarizing both before and after the finale (not sure where you left off so this might be redundant for you) ... basically, it became obvious as the end of the show neared that Jensen was not on board with the plan for the finale; although Jared never stopped singing its praises.

We got confirmation of this during a zoom interview where Jensen said that he actually went into the writers room as well as called Kripke to basically voice how he didn't agree with the direction the final season was going, but he was shot down on all fronts. In another interview, he was asked "What would you tell your younger self going into this career?" And Jensen responded with: "I would tell myself to just keep your head down and do the work" meaning, "Don't try to change things because you can't." I also think that this whole situation is what he wrote "Let Me Be" about for his first Radio Company album, but that is just my own speculation. All of his reluctance, even though he always followed it up with "But I eventually saw the value in the script" or "I came around in the end" (which never sounded sincere, and I don't think he was really trying to sound sincere) made us all very nervous about what was to come for 15x20; and of course, when the last two episodes aired, we saw just how badly they fucked it up.

After the awful finale, the entire fandom became aware of the CW's heavy handed role in the thing, basically squeezing all the life out of SPN to shape it into a ramp from which Walker could launch itself. They not only erased all the love and joy and representation that Cas's love confession gave us, they also tore apart the things that made sense about the bond between Sam and Dean, making it really just about Sam-- and therefore Jared, which of course, Jared seemed to be fine with ... even though no one else was. Misha barely said anything during the finale, and a few of the other actors talked about the show ending in various posts, but Jared tweeted up a storm ... and Jensen? Jensen just sat in sexy-silent resentment of the whole thing. He didn't tweet, he didn't post, he didn't say a word once he no longer had to, and I think that's because he was already going full-steam-ahead on his plans for redemption.

Which brings us to Chaos Machine-- Jensen and Danneel's new production company that is being run by a queer creative director and has a mantra of inclusivity and representation woven throughout it's fabric; and apparently, the first story that Jensen wanted to tell through this new platform is the origin story of Sam and Dean's parents; so last week (?) he announced the upcoming production of "The Winchesters" -- the untold love story of John and Mary. Obviously, John is not the most likable character from the show, so the idea was met with a lot of resentment when it was first announced, but Jensen has gone on to say that he is excited to take on the task of telling the "true" story behind these characters-- the one that makes sense with the pre-established canon and doesn't reject it. So, given that, the idea is being mulled over with a bit more optimism from the fandom.

Who isn't being optimistic though?

Jared Padalecki.

When Jensen made this announcement on Twitter, many of his friends and coworkers congratulated him, but not Jared. Jared responded with a passive aggressive: "I'm happy for you, man, but I wish I didn't hear about it through Twitter." This of course, sent all the die-hard Jared fans into a tizzy and they immediately began asking him if he was serious (hoping it was just a joke-- we all hoped it was because there would be fallout no matter what one's opinion on Jared is). Instead of leaving it there though or just deleting that tweet, Jared went on to tweet some more, saying that he was being serious that he didn't know about the plans for the prequel, and that he was "gutted" that Sam apparenlty wouldn't be included (mind you, this a prequel to SPN... meaning BEFORE Sam and Dean were even born, so how could Sam be included? But Dean is apparently narrating this story so maybe Jared thought Sam should be helping to narrate it? I don't know). But Jared being Jared couldn't just leave that there, he then went on to tweet at Robbie Thompson who was announced as a writer for "The Winchesters" so then Jared went off on him too, calling him "Brutus" and a "coward" acting like Robbie betrayed him (speculation is-- Robbie refused to write for Walker, so Jared is pissed that he essentially chose Jensen over him). He did fairly quickly, remove that tweet attacking Robbie, but of course the damage was done at that point. And it truly only took his first tweet calling out Jensen for some people to be like "Jared-- that sucks if you didn't know but why are you saying any of this publicly?"

As you might know, Jared has had issues in the past with posting hurtful things on social media, and has even used it as a tool for attack before-- calling out customer service agents and public workers that he felt have wronged him, which is bad enough ... but for him to then do the same thing to his best friend of well over a decade? Many people who had once liked him or at least gave him the benefit of the doubt (I used to ...) stopped after this latest twitter tantrum.

However, some people have suspected for some time that J2 had a falling out either shortly before the finale or just after. Their public/social media interactions have seemed awkward, stilted or even non-existent in moments that they normally wouldn't be. In the past year, when Walker premiered, Jensen didn't say much about his friend's new venture other than a "Congrats. buddy" here and there. Later, we learned that Jensen refused to work on the show ... Jared said he make him do it, drag Jensen to the set "kicking and screaming" which made many fans quirk up an eyebrow because, why would Jensen put up a fight unless the two weren't as close as they used to be? And then Jensen moved his family to Colorado (either permanently or for an extended period at least) which is notable considering how he moved to Texas seemingly to be closer to Jared, even buying a house that was near his. All this was just speculation though; but it wasn't until Jared's tweet complaining about not knowing about the prequel that the theories behind them falling out, became less theory and more fact.

The day after his twitter tantrum, Jared tweeted again-- not retracting his statements or apologizing, but instead saying that he and Jensen "talked" and were "all good". Jensen then tweeted too, parroting this statement to some degree, which only made the whole thing even more sour in the mouths of the fans. The fact that Jared didn't apologize for his outburst and throwing his friend under the bus, and also the fact that Jensen-- Mr. Sexy Silence, Mr. Never Tweets, Mr. Tech-Ignorant-and-Proud, actually had to POST SOMETHING saying that he and Jared made up, it just screamed OPTICS. It was obviously the work of agents and PR firms and lots of people going "Look, if you two keep beefing, that will mean the death of both of your projects. Even more people will stop watching Walker, and this SPN prequel will never get picked up due to the scandal." So, the two "made nice" publicly to quell the chaos, but in my opinion, it's all too little too late. Jared started a storm that he can't contain now with a little tweet, and it seems like he knows that too because before he talked about him and Jensen making up, he asked that people "not send threats". He could have just as easily said that he shouldn't have made this a public issue and that he's sorry, but instead, he continued to play the victim and stoke the flames by alerting us all to the damage he's done.

Now, like I said before-- I used to give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't think he's an awful human or that he deserves to be attacked or anything, but he is an adult man with very poor judgment and an obvious selfish-streak a mile wide. He should know better, and he should have more respect for his so-called "friends" and "brothers" than to make them targets to public ridicule. I have a hard time believing that Jensen still sees Jared the way he used to, and I wouldn't blame him a bit for wanting to pull away-- especially when he's moving on to so many new and exciting things. Jared certainly deserves happiness just as much as anyone else, but he went on twitter and basically asked for a scandal, and he got one.

The question is now-- was there a motive behind it? Was just looking for a reason to bring his and Jensen's falling out to light-- while making himself looking like the victim in the process? Or did he genuinely not know about the prequel and just decided to go about "not knowing" in the most toxic and hurtful way he could manage?

In any case, that is the drama ... that is the J2 insanity in a rather lengthy nutshell ... that is the tea ... and I hope it all makes sense.

But the good news out of all of this is, Cockles is thriving-- they are happy and in love and Jensen calls Misha "Babe" and Misha misses waking up to see Jensen in the morning, and they are just as cute and wonderful as can be.

So, I will end that there. I am so glad to see you back, and I hope I answered all your questions in a way that made sense ... I tried anyway!

💖💖💖

[spnshameblog]

i may be parasocial sometimes, but at least im not “jensen is a queer man in a relationship with another man, so he cant be homophobic towards fans” parasocial.

and i dont mean this as a general dig at cockles truthers (even though some of yall take it too far) and im also not saying that jensen is a whole grain homophobe (im convinced he is not and i, personally, dont think that his main problem with destiel is the gay part, but i think he resents giving ‘fangirls’ what they want and he doesnt care that his reluctance to ‘play into their demands’ comes off as slightly homophobic), but yall are so deep down this rabbithole of conspiracy theories and rpf truthing that you have fully accepted your theories as the truth and youre ignoring the actual harm and animosity jackles has displayed towards queer fans over the years. (”dont ruin it for everybody” anyone?)

YES i’m aware that the majority of the blame wrg to the handling of queer storylines, castiel and the pussyfooting around the actual canon confession is to be put on the producers, some writers and the people behind the cw and wb, but to say that jackles is entirely withoug blame is simply dishonest. 

tell me why misha’s and jensen’s actions and words are so different. even now when misha is obviously being gagged, he still manages to be more supportive than jackles ever was. maybe its not homophobia and maybe he is not doing it on purpose, but he obviously doesnt care all that much, bc it is very possible to be supportive while still pushing the mandated “up for interpretation” line. at the very least he neednt have played off of jreds idiotic rant when the fucking question wasnt even about if angels can experience human love or lust or not. let me remind you that it was a question by a mother of queer kids and they BOTH chose to no homo it, jred more offensively so, but jackles also heard a mom talk about how important that scene was to her queer kids and thought it was ok to debate whether or not the confession was romantic or queer at all.

and now you might say that its not his job to validate anyones feelings or anything and thats true, but then i need yall to stop acting like he was a secret destiel warrior all along. if someday down the line information comes out that he really was our agent on the inside all along i am fully prepared to eat my words, but as of now im working with the evidence i actually have.

[elizabethrobertajones]

Hello there. I have a question (more like a thesis): What would have happened if Cas told the Truth anywhere between season 7 and 15? Do you think it would have had the same impact on Dean? Logically speaking Cas could have told him anytime.

Oh gosh, yes. I mean Dean’s reaction in season 15 is still the best it could have been really :P He was in the best place and most accepting of himself and he still had a BSOD for a moment and then Cas had to shove him away so he could go die... (Assuming you take the on screen boring presentation of what happened as canon and not throw in the reciprocation, tears, pull in for a kiss, etc that we know exists either in our hearts or on Jackles’ phone.)

I’ve been thinking about this and the parameters we’d have to apply if we were gonna get something like the show being self-healing back to its self as we know it but we were allowed a confession. Also the show has to be as punishing as ever. So these are my personal theses on each season... 

Season 7 the confession would have to be after Cas comes back, and everything in 7x17 that looked like Dean was jealous of Daphne and Meg textually was meant to be read that way in the set up for the confession. To make it the most painful obviously we still get Cas exactly as he was all through to the end of the season and he never really says anything too different but then right when they’re having the “cursed or not” discussion he’d bust out of nowhere that he supposes it is inevitable Dean would talk him into going on this dangerous mission to get Dick because obviously Cas loves him. And Dean, who is in a weirdly zen sort of place in the remaining minutes of season 7 after Bobby’s send off and final words that helped him go make up with Cas, is in a similarly season 15 oddly okay spot, mental health wise. At least. COMPARED TO ALL THE REST OF SEASON 7. But I still personally have always read it as a genuinely good place for him that could have endured much longer if not for *gestures everything that happened after stabbing Dick* and obviously making up with Cas was step one and a huge part of his process. 

(idk if you’ve noticed but 7x23 pretty much has no Sam and Dean interaction after Bobby’s send off, and their last good broments are really scarce; it feels sort of natural for abrupt calamity and no time for teary farewells in a season with a strong commentary on grief, which also hyperfocuses the attention on Dean n Cas there.)

So I think Dean would maybe be stunned but maybe quirk a sceptical smile like “He can’t mean it like that and anyway he’s currently coo-coo, this doesn’t mean anything hahaha oh Cas :)))” and then idk shake his head and move the story on and Cas just turns one longing look after him like “dammit that didn’t work out like planned” 

Anyway then the exact plot beats of 7x23 follow, exactly as seen on your screens, but we’re left going into season 8 and Carver era with Dean far far more messed up about Cas and it can force clarification in 8x02 in Purgatory where Cas is entirely adamant he meant what he meant and furious at Dean for being mad at him and Dean’s mad at Cas for all the season 8 reasons so they continue angsting at each other but Benny’s reaction shots are just 10x funnier. This is followed by Dean’s reciprocation of “I love you” instead of “I need you” in the crypt scene in 8x17 and from there honestly it’s been built up into canon in such a way that the emotional arc of the show has to go off the wheels and I can’t keep to the self-healing model to continue following the “real” plot and contain this much raw power.

Coincidentally, if the first confession is in season 8, it would be “what broke the connection” after a season 8 where nothing was different up until that point. Cas flaps off while Dean is still processing that the answer was “You. I love you.” and Dean is left yelling at the empty crypt like “What the hell, Cas?!” 

Then he’s as mad at him as he was in canon except instead of being borderline a really bad overreaction into his anger phase which we have to weather as miserable fans tethered to this ship who know sometimes Dean gets mad and yells at Cas for no reason, he’s reacting proportionately. It’s always seemed like 8x22 only makes sense if Dean is furious at Cas for confessing and fleeing except, obviously, in our “”real”” canon, it can only be like Cas confessed and Dean took it that way and also felt embarrassed how far he went with his own feelings only for Cas to run. 

This would make the bar scene with the cupids in 8x23 make a lot more sense too, and after they get the cupid bow Dean’s going to turn to Cas and give him a nervous smile, and then - Naomi flaps in like she does and distracts them away from reciprocation. 

I think this one could go long - maybe even season 13 Cas being dead and Dean being like “FUCK I never got a chance to work things out with him” and 13x06 onwards is where we get any actual work on the ship, because Carver era was so determined to be emotionally gruelling and unsatisfying and relentless from one issue to the next. And the confessions are so bound up specifically in the moments of miscommunication or failed attempts, cut off conversations etc that whether Destiel is canon or not, they’re never gonna get to talk it out under those conditions. Cas is only explicitly the grieving wife and jealous ex to Crowley’s smug take over of Dean’s affections rather than subtextually. 

The season 9 confession... I feel like we’d come perilously close to the Monkey Paw curse we once envisioned of Buckleming making it canon because they love jumping the gun on plot points and making them too obvious. So the end of 9x03, Cas is really blatantly angling to come in with a big “Hey I’m human can I live in the Bunker look at me I learned to do The Sex can we do it now” kind of vibe. All the enthusiasm he was giving to eating that burrito in the background while “Zeke” was trying to get him kicked out, but with lusting over Dean :P 

If we avoid that we can leap to Mr Bobo Berens and his first episode, and have this thing handled by a pro, as it’s already very much about Cas as a homeless queer man with a bad ex he still loves rolling into town where he’s just trying to make a new life and play straight - I mean human - for his own survival. I suspect the confrontation with Iphraim would make it really obvious that Cas didn’t just want to live as a human but had an eye for living as a human with Dean, and then he’d attempt a confession right before Dean would accidentally talk over, like, the L in “love” honestly, to tell him that sorry things do still stand that you can’t come back with me. Leaves Cas utterly devastated but Dean is none the wiser and he drives off and Cas pines piningly at the pine trees in his Gas n Sip. 

Again the end of season probably would force the real confession, since there’s a ready made moment in 9x22 where Hannah tries to force Cas to kill Dean and he gives it all up for one man. Cas can just lower that knife and be like, “No, I love him,” talking to his shoes and Hannah rather than meeting Dean’s eyes. Mark of Cain Dean is fuuuucked up at that point but we still get the moment where Dean carries Cas’s bag into the bunker and sits down with him and tries to care about his health and now also this confession. Sussing out what the heck is up with Cas, and maybe he looks like he’s playing it cool and is still so messed up but Cas is vulnerable, and finally Dean starts to reach across the library table for his hand, and it’s a moment where maybe things could have started to go better for them...... Cue Gadreel walking into the library, Dean going feral, blah blah demon!Dean, blah blah explicitly stated Drowley, blah blah muuuch healing and Cas giving Dean a wide berth for a lil while. Though, in this scenario, 10x22 is far worse but has the reverse crypt scene moment, so Dean can be more obviously unable to kill Cas because he loves him, and then he walks out, followed by season 11 and Cas being returned to them. Unfortunately. Yep. Another finger curls on the Monkey Paw... 11x03 by Buckleming would absolutely be where Destiel goes undeniably canon as it is their first real interactions post Mark of Cain. Our only consolation - directed by Jensen Ackles.

Season 10 confession, hm. Poor Cas. He has the option of 10x03, of confessing and then immediately apologising and walking off to handle stuff with Hannah (thanks Buckleming!) or the Burger Date, where Dean may be slightly less stunned stupid but still likely to laugh it off and not believe it. There’s not much heavy tension between them most of the season so it’s possible that the only time Cas would really get is to confess in 10x22 while telling Dean that he would have to watch him murder the world, and that would suck because I love you. At which point the story dictates that Dean beats Cas to paste so it’s a very bad look. Season 10 destiel confession is the worst. 

Season 11 may be better because Cas has options to be jealous of Crowley and Dean’s connection to Amara multiple times and then Casifer happens and that can really play up things in a season where a confession is coming. 

I think the Beer Run in 11x23 might be the only viable place, where Dean grabs Cas and takes him out for that drive for last drinks before the end of the world. Cas gets the “you’re our brother” thing and just lays into Dean with the certainty of someone who knows this is it - now or nothing - with “You know that’s crap, Dean. You wait until the end of the world and you can’t even say it. Well I can; I love you.” 

Cue awkward tension, well-placed interrupting Moose, and then the world very much not ending so that when Dean n Cas hug and kiss in front of Mary in 12x01. Well. There’s even more explaining to do to her. Since we’ve made it to Dabb era, I believe any confessions from this point onwards can just slot into the show as we got it from there since it’s entirely compatible to start season 12 assuming Dean n Cas are literally married and never be contradicted by the text in their behaviour. But since we’ve had canon Destiel since whenever, obviously the final episodes are good instead of. That.

Season 12... Going to have to go with the first sniff of true canon coming in Lily Sunder with just a few lines leaning even further in the Cas’s Angel Family Are Homophobic Assholes metaphor, leaving Cas’s relationship with Dean even more live wire exposed. Followed by The Mixtape Scene where Cas is going to confess to Dean and get him startled up out of his seat, accidentally knocking the mixtape to the floor and for a moment it’s like, did he throw it is he mad? but then he’s smooching Cas, fade to black, return to scheduled programming but the whole line about Cas stealing the Colt from under Dean’s pillow makes fuckin sense, as well as the fall out argument and how mad Dean was at Cas followed by how devastated he was at Cas’s death. This just means Dabb era continues as planned except we get a kiss in 13x06 under that big glowy cross, and some more smooching here and there when things are good from then on. 

Season 13... Hm. Cas has to do the confessing and I don’t think he’d throw that at Dean on return from death so unlike if Dean was the one who was being made to confess obviously the aforementioned glowy cross scene obviously would be it for him... Cas could keep that bottled up much longer, especially as he has so much to do with Jack this season. It’s entirely possible we go through the whole season and then Cas lobs it at Dean as a final card when he’s making his Michael decision and we actually see the scene that we didn��t get, where Cas has to watch Dean getting possessed. Except Dean is like, tearful and furious like why would you tell me that now, and anyway i’m doing this for you as well dumbass but fuck you but also how dare you anyway I need to be an archangel now and save our - your - son, bye. Cue Cas sitting there not just in total horror at what happened but also kicking himself for fucking up the moment :P I guess this way at least we can have that moment where Dean is un-Michaeled and tells Cas he’s going to shower and finger guns at him, and now we can have Cas wordlessly and furiously follow him. 

Season 14, we get Cas at Rocky’s bar confessing to Dean while figment!Pamela cheers the whole thing on. If there was EVER a time to use the power of love to snap Dean out of it, Cas upsetting his cosy routine with “this isn’t real, I’M NOT HERE IN YOUR FANTASY” is absolutely the time to pull a reverse crypt scene which has such low stakes in terms of neither of them needing to punch each other when Michael is an external aggressor.

My ONLY issue with this is that Sam has to witness the whole thing and we would get reaction shots and I am a weak mortal who will start cackling at them when I’m supposed to be having the transcendent moment of canon and the whole thing would be ruined just because of the way Jared gurns when doing reactions to dean n cas interacting. Wow thanks. Thanks a lot. 

[queerfables]

Destiel and Metanarratives: A Romance for the Ages

There are a lot of reasons the Destiel controversy got as big as it is. Obviously Supernatural is a huge fandom, and Destiel is the biggest ship in it, so to some degree it was inevitable. But this goes way beyond that. 

Silencing of queer stories is an old, festering wound and it affects the entire LGBTQ+ community.  If the relationship between Dean and Castiel had been handled better, on a show as big as Supernatural, it could have been profoundly revolutionary. Instead it just highlighted all the ways that even though representation has come a long way, what we have is so inadequate, and still we have to fight tooth and nail for it.

And then compounding the unfulfilled potential of what this story could have been is the impossible fact that Supernatural ended, but Dean and Cas's story is still not over. We're all left holding our breath waiting to see how it turns out.

It's relevant that towards the end, Supernatural got REALLY meta. Like, seriously, God is a writer trying to control the heroes' lives through storytelling? The characters are literally trying to escape a narrative that's pushing them to act in ways they don't want? And instead of wrapping the final season up in a way that gives fans of a show that's been on air for 15 damn years closure and satisfaction, they drop plot threads all over the place and tell us about happy endings that we never see, show us happy endings that feel hollow. Throw in one of the biggest and most iconic queer ships of all time just barely breaking through into canon, in a way that asks more questions than it answers, and you’ve basically engineered the perfect storm of fandom backlash.

The nature of Supernatural's metanarrative meant the unsatisfactory ending alone would have been enough to make waves in fandom. The characters' last battle was against an ending they didn't want, and we're told they won but it feels like they lost. If "someone else is writing this story" has become a core part of the show's canon, it's inevitable fans will look more closely at what feels authentic and reject the parts of the story that don't ring true. All along characters have been asking questions like "Is this really me or am I just being written that way?" and "How much agency do I really have in this story?" The writers have been telling us to think about the distinction between the choices a real person makes, which arise out of that person’s own interests, and the choices a fictional character makes, which are dictated by the people who control the story, people whose interests might not actually align with the characters'. It’s against that backdrop that Dean and Cas’s story plays out, and boy, is that some foreshadowing.

Because first, you’ve got Despair. Despair, which was supposed to be The Truth. You’ve got Cas dropping a revelation about his motivations that changes the meaning of the entire show (or if you’ve been paying attention, maybe just confirms it). You’ve got a romantic, heroic,  earth-shattering sacrifice, where Cas tells Dean, "I know I can't have you, but I love you anyway, and I'm giving up everything to save you." You've got Dean receiving this declaration under the worst possible circumstances and having no time at all to respond. And after it's over and the dust settles, Dean still doesn't tell us how he feels. There’s a question that any audience with an ounce of investment in the characters is going to be asking, and that question is, does he love Castiel back? And he doesn’t tell us. The show ends, and he doesn’t tell us. We're left to make our own assumptions, and though everything in the story signals there are gaps in the narrative that we're missing, beyond the story we’re told over and over that we're reading into it. The question hangs, but we know we’re supposed to see Castiel's love as unrequited.

And then. AND THEN. Out of nowhere comes a new version of the episode. It's supposed to be identical to the first version, but it's not, and it proves there’s a reason we felt like something was missing, and it’s because something WAS. Despair turns back into The Truth. Dean loves Castiel back. Dean loves him, and he wanted to say it, and he was silenced.

Listen. This is heartbreaking. But it's also breathtakingly, devastatingly romantic. Dean loves Castiel so much that even though their story was supposed to end with his feelings unspoken, he found a way to say it anyway! He said it even though he was never meant to. He said it even though they cut his words out and tried to pretend he never felt them. Against all the odds, he made himself heard. This story about agency and truth and the very nature of narratives is coming to life before our eyes and LITERALLY NO ONE KNOWS WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT.

That, I think, is why so many people are riveted. It's not "just about a ship", you can't reduce and dismiss it like that, but it sure is about a queer romance so powerful that trying to cut it out made the whole story fall apart, and even then it still couldn't be silenced. It's about a lot of other things too, but let's take a moment to bask in the sheer triumph of that.

It's not over yet, either. The story isn't just coming to life, it's drawing all of us into it. Will Dean find more ways to make himself heard, as the story is told and retold in other languages around the world? Will we be able to prove that this was always what he wanted to say? And can we make sure the network hears our outrage and suffers actual consequences for trying to silence Dean? For trying to silence us?

I'm talking about Dean like he's a real person because, especially in the context of Supernatural's metanarrative, that is how this feels. But what's more amazing is that there must have been a whole team of people working behind the scenes to get this to the point that they did. In one version of the story or another, Dean and Castiel both spoke their truths, and that's not because of a single "rogue translator" (although, yeah, we owe the Latin American dub team who did their jobs and translated the scene faithfully instead of toning down the queer romance - which happens all too often - and got this piece of the story told). It’s not because of any single person. It's because of the writers and directors pushing the queer subtext for years, until without any other explicitly romantic scenes, this confession made total sense. It's because of Misha and Jensen, putting their heart and soul into these characters and then in their final scene together bringing the romance out of the realm of subtext and into the text. It's because of the editors who cut together the original version of the episode, the one that the Latin American dub was translated from. It's because of every damn person who ever fought for this ship to be a little more present in the show, and it’s because of the fans who fell in love with Dean and Castiel’s relationship and saw that it was a love story worth telling and refused to let the creators forget about it.

Fandom, at its heart, is a community of people who are obsessed with stories. We tell stories about other worlds because they fascinate us. We tell stories about the connections between characters because they make us feel things we can’t let go. We tell stories about ourselves - our identities, our loves, our lives - because sometimes no one else will. We tell stories about stories because stories matter. And when Dean and Castiel loved each other so fiercely that even the story itself couldn’t keep them apart, they became part of something bigger. They became a symbol of the creativity and defiance and freedom that defines fandom. We’re a community obsessed with stories, and beyond the realm of fiction, escaping into the real world that lives outside the television screen, Dean and Castiel’s love story is a great one. 

[bellatrixxue]

Xue’s Supernatural Dare: Wendigo (S1 EP2)

Hello, everyone? How did everyone feel about the finale? Yes? Yes? Oh. Oh. Oh my. Oh, dear.

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell that half-assed homophobic chicken-shit fuckbucket’s not gonna stop me, since I strapped myself onto this roller coaster already and I promised I’m not getting out until the ride’s over, so here we go, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Also, those who are in this roller coaster with me, ready? Tag list is: @fangirlxwritesx67​ @amazingiam00​ @kalliravenne​ @indecisive20something​ @2musiclover2​ @impossibletosleepthrough @there-must-be-a-lock​ @wingedcatninja​ @arvit​

Oh my gods this recap is so cheesy I actually can make a fondue out of it. 2000s, everybody!

A WHOLE MINUTE AND A HALF FOR THAT FONDUE

FUCKJUMPSCARETITLEFUCKYOU

So we’re starting the episode with the murder scene first, eh? Is that gonna be a trend?

Oh come on, Chads, you’re out in nature and you’re playing video games? Absorb the nature...before it absorbs you!

Waitwait. Holy shit is that...is that Cory Monteith? Oh, bless his soul...

If the wendigo eats his dick as he’s peeing I’m immediately giving Jensen Ackles $100. For no real reason, I just feel like giving him money for already carrying the show on his back.

I can’t tell if it did or not, so I’m not paying yet.

Aw, Sammy...

"I should have told you the truth.” *Vine voice* BUT YOU DIDN’T

FUCKYOUINTHEASSHOhnightmare. Nightmare. So did he visit her at her grave or not? I need answers.

A week? Goddamn. Poor thing. That man-eating tree’s fucking good at his job, man.

“There’s nothing there, it’s just...woods,” Sam, I don’t know if Jess’s death hit you hard or if you got into law school by eating some ancient dick and/or pussy instead of earning that high score fair and square, but the woods “in the middle of nowhere” (your words) are known to be one of the top places full of weird-ass creatures. Even kindergartners know that.

Ehehehehehehehehe he’s so smol next to his lil bro my lil shit

At least you’re coming up with decent covers this time. No Agent Mulder and Scully ruining things for you this time around.

“Bull” oop-

Oh Dean’s a smoooooooooth operator. Good going, buddy.

AND HE GOT A COPY OF THAT DOCUMENT TEAM DEAN TEAM DEAN

Oh that death really got to Sam. I hope he doesn’t turn out to be a trigger-happy psycho. Or eat the man-eating tree and become one himself.

Oh, Haley’s a cutie! Which one’s her brother? Cory? Discount Enrique Iglesias?

Do you have a card for EVERY profession, Dean? And how do I get them too?

That is a very pretty car. I bet they wasted half the budget on that thing.

Okay, sonny boy, little bro, Broseidon, calm down.

Ah, fuck, Haley and Broseidon is gonna go into the woods, that’s more heads to worry about.

How the fuck does Sam find information this fast? I’m impressed, I take five hours to get to one article for my research paper. Or maybe I’m just lazy. So he really earned his law school interview without having to eat dick and pussy, huh.

Every 23 years? What is this, Pennywise? Are we going to see the wendigo do his best Tim Curry do his best scary clown impression? Honk honk?

“Whatever that thing is, it can move.” And the sun rises on the East, Sammy. Why are you so smart and dumb at the same time? Is this his character trait? It might grow on me.

Ahhh, so Sam’s go-to move at interrogation is doing puppy dog eyes and sympathize with the person. He’d make a good lawyer, shame that man-eating tree.

Go Grandpa Exposition, go!

Go Grandpa Exposition, go, give us information and none at all!

OH GEEZ THAT SCAR. PENNYWISE WENDIGO IS VICIOUS.

Skinwalker, Back Dog...Ooh, those all sound cool! I hope we get to see them soon!

‘Corporeal’ doesn’t sound like a real word, but then again, English doesn’t sound like a real language. Sorry. Moving on.

Sam’s gonna eat the wendigo with that attitude, Jesus Christ.

AND HIS BROTHER, AT THIS RATE. If the real villain turns out to be inside Sam all along I’m gonna flip. Is that why women keep dying and burning on ceilings where he sleeps? Is he secretly Lucifer’s spawn or something?

“Oh sweetheart I don’t wear shorts”. They queer-coded him from the start and they tried to make you believe he was straight for fifteen seasons straight? And some people bought that?

Oh, crap, another crappy death treatment for Cory before he got into Glee...No, I wasn’t into Glee, I just watched a few episodes and I might hate Rachel Berry...And Lea Michele...ahem...

Dean is totally flirting with Roy shut upppppppp

OOP AND THERE ROY GOES OH THE SEXUAL TENSION IS HIGH IN THESE WOODS TODAY

“It’s probably the most honest I’ve been with a woman. Ever.” See. Bi. Bi bi bi.

So...why the coordinates, Daddy Negan? Is this a portal to Hell? A place where man-eating trees grow?

*carefully places death flag on Roy*

Ooooh the campsite is very...haunted house-y. You know what I’m saying?

That’s not Discount Enrique Iglesias, but Pennywise wendigo, yes? Those things can mimic human voices, right?

*Google searches*...There are so many versions of this tale I can’t even confirm or deny it. Dammit.

Maybe Pennywise wendigo just wants some snacks and a nice phone and GPS? Maybe he misses his family in uh, Canada or something?

Daddy Negan’s journal is  a e s t h e t i q u e .

I’m so sorry, but the way Sammy smirks as he speaks with those dark, dark voids for eyes? My boy’s a demon. He’s a demon, I’m telling you.

At least Haley has some sense to her. *puts another death flag on Roy*

*PUTS YET ANOTHER DEATH FLAG ON ROY*

True, that. What the heck is Daddy Negan up to with all of this?

“Saving people, hunting things, the family business!” Okay, the way Dean said it gave me chills.

I can actually empathize with Sam here...As whiny and bitchy as he is, he has his reasons to be this way. I guess if I were in his shoes, I’d be less of a Dean and more of a Sam, too. We deal with our losses quite similarly.

Ah, the brotherly bonding moments like these little talks make the show worth it. It’s so heartwarming.

Pennywise wendigo! I didn’t miss you, why’re you here to burst my happy bubble?

I’m starting to see a slight parallel between Haley and Broseidon and Dean and Sammy. Hmm.

Nice meeting you, Roy. Zoop you go.

Haley and Broseidon are taking this rather well, I’m glad they do.

Okay, actual exposition time, thank you.

Whoa, Broseidon speaks! Donner Party! Please don’t remind me of that! Those poor people!

Hibernation and food storage. Delightful, just delightful.

TORCHING? *CALLS RAMMSTEIN*

Somehow, not being able to see the wendigo is scarier to me than what I will probably see itself. Limited budget horror can actually work well.

Oh, dear, Roy literally did a death drop. Badum tissssssssss.

FUCK IT TOOK DEAN THE ONLY CHARACTER I CARE ABOUImean I love you too, Sam! Come on, let’s find him before it’s too late!

A trail of M&Ms! Yes, Broseidon! And Hansel and Gretel refercalled it. Sammy, you and I share the same wavelength?

SHITSHITTHEYTRIPPEDANDFELLINTHEFUCKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK

Thank the gods the Pennywise wendigo kept them right there. Chances.

DISCOUNT ENRIQUE IGLESIAS IS STILL ALIVE GEEZ BUT ALSO PHEW

Ah, Dean Winchester, I love you so much that I can’t even begin to describe it.

Also how convenient that the flare guns are there. Deus ex machina!

Haley would bode well as a hunter, look at her courage, her will. There are more hunters around than Daddy Negan and the brothers, right?

Yeah, seeing the actual wendigo makes me less scared of it now. It’s unnerving, but still.

TEAM DEAN YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHAW

Graphics are...alright, but it’s the thought that counts!

Running with the grizzly bear story. Smart Broseidon. Ben. Sorry, you deserve to be called by your real name. I think with practice they could become good hunters, along with their Discount Enrique Iglesias brother! Is there a fanfiction for that? Can I write it now?

...

I AM WILLING TO DIE TO PROTECT DEAN WINCHESTER I

Haley’s a lesbian, that’s why she kissed him on the cheek only. Headcanoned. Also I have a crush on her, she’s really pretty? Like? Heart eyes???

Ah, the siblings parallels again. Let’s hope neither of the two brothers end up in the bed like that.

“Man, I hate camping.” Really. Really really. Really.

“I’m driving”

...

SAM WINCHESTER I’M SORRY I EVER SPOKE ILL OF YOU I WILL PROTECT YOU WITH MY LIFE TOO I PROMISE YOU I WILL

It’s just a sassy bisexual brother and his little snide bisexual brother on the road to kill evil creatures and find their father and I love this show? Help? Help???

I really, really see the charm of Supernatural now! I’m fully invested in both brothers and their story, and I’m cheering them both on! Let’s get Daddy Negan back and get rid of that man-eating tree once and for all!

Six stars out of five!

⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐

This dare is introducing me to a whole new world, and I really, really am glad I took that jump a few days ago, man!

Thank you everyone for reading my ramblings, and I’ll see you in the day after with the next review! Thank you for sticking with me! Buh-bye!

- Xue

[phynali]

more spn discussions, just skip this post y’all

 @queerbluebird​ thanks so much for engaging with my post/reply! i really enjoyed reading your response and i have a long reply here.

i’m responding to your post/reply here rather than reblogging it because honestly that thread is - so long. so very long. 

so first - 

i agree there is a difference between entitlement and what i would call, not promise, but instead “narrative follow-through”. A story that completely lacks narrative follow-through does end up feeling disappointing, or frustrating, or rage-inducing, depending on what’s happened. to me there’s a fundamental difference between critiquing a story based on follow-through and bad storytelling (which your post aims to do), versus say, creating hashtag campaigns about a character being silenced because and spreading conspiracy theories about a bad dub (among other things honestly).

and also - queerbaiting totally sucks, we definitely do agree on that.

where we disagree, i think are these two core points:

i do not see the narrative build-up that demands a follow-through. i do not see supernatural as having built up to the story that many destiel shippers seem to think was there, and no one has ever been able to point out to me any actual textual reasons that do craft that narrative build-up  

i fundamentally do not believe that destiel was ever a queerbait. queerbait involves active intent on the part of creators to tease a ship or queer representation in order to draw in $ from queer audiences without ever making it canon, so as not to alienate straight audiences. so, refering to point 1., i do not see the canon text as having laid the groundwork for a queerbait and those romantic tropes, at least not at any point in the past 7 years. and beyond the canon, the writers and producers and jensen ackles all indicated dean was straight, and that they were not writing a romance. if anyone queerbaited the fans, it was misha collins who kept teasing the possibility, and personally i would argue that was irresponsible of him. but that’s a different discussion altogether and tends to piss people off when it’s framed as such, because misha means a lot to them and it hurts to see the man who validated their feelings get criticized for the manner in which he validated them. so i’m gonna leave that aside.

beyond that, I want to engage with some of your specific quotes:

Supernatural loves to say “wait for it.” And I don’t think it’s entitled to feel betrayed if an author uses their story to say “wait for it” in order to convince you to stick with their story and then delivers the opposite after you do.

May i ask, where was the “wait for it” with destiel? this ties in directly to the queerbaiting. i indicated in my post/reply that while i see it from cas, there’s been little to no hint of any reciprocation of feelings from dean, and if anything the past 7 or so years have driven the point home that it isn’t happening. i personally am not able to see the “Wait for it” and that was the point of my question. without the “Wait for it”, i also can’t see the queerbait. 

I asked for specifics and while i totally get not having the spoons, you provided a few:

(off the top of my head for Dean though, the mixtape, his response to Cas’ death at the end of 12, subsequent grief arc, and reaction to Cas’ return in the front half of 13 rank highly. His reaction to Lucifer’s prank call in 15x19 might rate, but maybe just because it’s so recent.)

not trying to be unkind here, but i quite genuinely don’t see any of these examples as framing cas and dean in a romantic light, or as hinting at a “what if”. the mixtape is like.... okay, maybe. i had read that as being symbolic of something else, but i can see wanting to read it from a shipping lens. (i don’t however think i’d read it as baiting or “what if” - it was quite textually not framed that way. shipping, 100%, but canon build-up, not for me).

for the other examples -- grieving for someone you consider family? and being happy when they come back? that’s not shippy to me. i mean - contrast the grief he showed over cas’s death compared to his grief over, say, mary? or, less extreme, charlie? and nothing compared to how off the rails he goes when sam is dead or he thinks sam is. so i -- i just can’t see those as creating a narrative that demands a follow-through. and when your friend who is dead calls your phone? of course you hop to the door - i don’t know what is romantic about that. sam would’ve hopped just as quick if “cass” had called his phone instead.

and look - i see what is fun to ship about all that. if i shipped it, i’d be happily collecting these moments with a smile and grinning to myself about how cute they are and much they mean. but shipping it vs. it being romantically framed in the canon are two fundamentally different things. shipping doesn’t imply narrative buy-in or deliberation from the creator.

moving on, you also spoke at length about 15x18:

15x18 made the sort of statement that drew back even people who did exactly what OP said they should do, turning off the TV years ago. It wasn’t a quiet “if you’re still watching, keep waiting,” so much as a shouted “hey we’re gonna do this thing, watch this!”

i guess destiel fans vs. those of us who don’t ship it really see this as fundamentally different. because you discuss that moment as one which requires follow-through, and say that if this were heteronormative m/f love declaration, there would be that expectation of follow-through. not necessarily reciprocity, but more - more conversation, more acknowledgment, more something.

(i mean - if there was more, but that more was “hey i love you too but only platonically, sorry man” would that be better?)

but no - i actually just... disagree with your point on that front. i can see why you feel the way you do and i acknowledge that it can be read as the start of a conversation. to me though -- and clearly, now that the finale is out, how the writers saw it -- that was actually the end of a conversation. the end of, like you pointed out, 12 years. a 12-year conversation that ends in a gorgeous declaration of love, and specifically how love isn’t about being together, it’s simply about being - it’s about the fact that you love someone, and that feeling alone is the most beautiful thing in existence.

to me, that declaration can only be written and interpreted as an ending.  a sacrifice, a declaration, and a goodbye. so - while i kind of expected seeing more people in episode 20 and realize that didn’t happen largely due to covid - i’m not disappointed we didn’t see cas, because that culmination of his narrative (and then knowing he was with jack, after, rebuilding the heaven that he rebelled against and finally completing his narrative circle by fixing all the problems with it alongside the good god he sought to find all along) is kind of perfect. 

and i genuinely don’t think if cas was in a female vessel this entire time that that would change. maybe some audience members would feel differently, but i think many of us would see it for the end it was nonetheless. there’s plenty of stories with m/f ships that are one-sided and that character sacrifices themselves for the person they love, so i don’t see why this would be any different (except the bury your gays issue, but that’s a whole other and very real conversation about media tropes).

moving on to the series finale.

As many people have pointed out in praise of 15x20, Sam is the absolute most important thing in Dean’s life, his priority above anything and everything… And yet there, at the actual end of the world, Dean ignores Sam’s call and instead cries over the loss of Castiel. Dean’s loss of Castiel plays in tandem with the loss of literally the whole world. But we’re not to take that as a promise that Castiel means more to this story, or to Dean, than a couple seconds of wistfulness after the dust settles?

I... yeah. i don’t see what this even is arguing. that dean taking a minute to himself to grieve his best friend, who just died in part because dean decided to go hunt down billie (who was literally dying anyway). he’s hurting. there’s nothing about this that’s a promise - it’s an end. it’s grief. it’s the horror of losing someone you care about, and the silence that comes after. it’s fundamentally human in it’s pain. and we, the audience, are invited to grieve with dean.

so I mean - of course cas means more to this story. of course he’s meant more than a few seconds of grief, after 12 years. but just because that’s the last time we see him on screen doesn’t mean we don’t value his story, and celebrate how it too came full circle.

You mention cas as a sort of avatar for a different potential ending for the brothers, and highlight him representing:

An ending where higher powers stop yanking them around and they get to actually live in the life they’ve built for themselves.

So while i never considered cas an avatar for that, i do think we all wanted the brothers to have their freedom. “finally free.” so we can agree on wanting that end. but we disagree on whether it was delivered, i guess? because i feel it was.

you also talk about what you and many other fans conceivably wanted a happier ending to look like. can i -- i’m going to be totally honest. i have not seen a single person who’s critiquing the end saying “i just wanted sam and dean to grow old hunting together with their dog until they retire together and die of old age.”

would that be satisfying to those who are mad about the end? i personally don’t think so, but maybe my opinion is being coloured by the most vitriolic fans i’ve seen. if sam and dean got to have the life they wanted free of chuck, and dean didn’t die, and they kept going (or retired and opened a bar together!). maybe sam still had a kid, but again because romance wasn’t the point, the wife wasn’t important and they left her blurry still so we could interpret ourselves if she was a wife or a co-parent or a surrogate or what. maybe dean has a kid too, with a similar question-mark-wife. maybe we get a few images of them having a holiday with jodie and the girls. and then getting to heaven together in old age, greeting bobby with a beer, and going for a drive.

would that be an end that wouldn’t cause fandom uproar? i would enjoy it, soft an slightly discordant as it would be to me. i prefer the ending we got, bittersweet and heartbreaking though it was, but i wouldn’t be taking to social media to yell about it if we got a softer epilogue, so to speak.

on the other hand... would that still not be enough, at least not for so many of the angry fans? i’m genuinely unsure. it seems to me that so much of the ire is about destiel itself, even if people are pretending it’s about more and other things than that. not everyone, but like, a big portion of them. which leads me to believe that nothing short of dean and cas at least interpretable as together is what they wanted. if every other single thing about the existing finale was the same except that cas was the one to greet dean instead of bobby, and even with the same basic dialogue, without discussing the confession, but they have a lingering smile, and dean leaves to drive and wait for sam with the promise he’ll see cas later - 

if everything else stayed the same except who greeted dean, i genuinely don’t believe i’d be seeing almost any critique of the finale on my dash. maybe i’m cynical, but that’s where i’m at.

which is part of why i really struggle to believe that people are engaging in good faith when they critique the finale. because i feel like if it offered them either a) everything they’re purportedly asking for but still no cas and zero hint of destiel, vs. b) every other thing they claim to hate stays the same except there’s a wink and nod to destiel - i believe they would take the wink and nod. 

   On to some other things you raised:

But how can you know to walk away from a tragedy if the tragedy says “the end won’t be a tragedy, keep watching” right up until it ends in tragedy?

Oh i Get this. I hate thinking i’m consuming fun media only for it to rip my heart out at the end. i’ve literally - well, i’ve had a very unpleasant and distressing experience of this, actually. so i get it. also the opposite: i sometimes feel disappointed when i’m consuming media that is gripping and intense and painful, but then the end is too easy, too soft and happy?

BUT - supernatural never pretended it would have a happy end? the end was so. much. happier. than i ever expected. the Swan Song end was going to have Sam in hell being tortured by lucifer for eternity. according to something i read which i am fundamentally too lazy to link because who knows if it would have turned out this way but -- kripke was apparently going to have Dean jump in the cage with him at that end, if the series ended on S5? the ‘horror’ ending. completely devastating sacrifice for mankind (sam), and completely devastating sacrifice for his brother (dean). just -- oof. even if that wasn’t the plan and the series would’ve ended as the episode did - sam was still in the cage and cas was off waging war in heaven and dean was living every day knowing he was alive and his brother was being tortured.

i’m sorry if you thought you were watching a happier show. i know how much that hurts. that doesn’t mean the story was actually that happy though. sometimes, it’s on us as consumers to acknowledge we were misreading the media. i’ve had to do this. it’s hard, it hurts, but it helps you consume things healthier. i’ve had to do this growing recently, and i’m better off for it.

regarding the specific manner of dean’s death - that’s really not what my post was about and i’m not gonna address it here. i’ve talked about it elsewhere and so have others, and @lovetincture‘s original post spelled it out beautifully, in how human it was. i have feelings on how and why i loved dean’s death, and why it was the absolute opposite of what Chuck’s ending was and what he wanted (no blaze of glory), but i’ll leave those for another time.

They cast aside all the relationships they’ve built. [...] They lost/walked away from the life and home they built in the bunker. Dean got a season 1 death. Sam got a season 1 life.

I feel that there is a very huge difference between regression and progression when it comes to cyclical storytelling. And that difference seems to be missing from the ongoing discussions i’ve seen about this in fandom.

Coming full circle to season 1 does not at all mean that the development is ‘undone’ or that the story has regressed or that anything has been lost or destroyed. It can mean that, if the storyteller doesn’t know what the hell they’re doing, but in this case i don’t (personally) feel it’s a fair critique.

Dean’s death might parallel his s1 not-quite death from Faith, but the s15 result of that death is night and day. Dean is no longer alone. Dean does not go up to a lonely heaven filled with bittersweet memories, where even his canonical soulmate and him have wide gulfs between the memories they fill their shared heaven with. Dean dies a hunter, but he dies a hunter who literally saved earth and changed heaven and gets to spend eternity with his brother, side-by-side and together without all the pain and miscommunication, and he gets to see his family and loved ones too. he died having literally made the world so much better.

even without that though?

his story comes full circle, but dean’s character development isn’t about his death, it’s about the fact that in the first several seasons dean could hardly admit he cared without acting like his teeth were being pulled. he was too afraid of abandonment to ask for someone to be by his side. he was too afraid of rejection to let anyone in. and in the end? he asks sam to stay. he tells him that he loves him. he pours his heart out and says all the things that 15 years ago were stoppered in his throat, words trying and failing to claw their way free but his hurt and fears were too deep.

dean is free.

the point of dean’s story coming full circle to season 1 parallels was specifically to highlight this incredible development, not to undermine it. he is different. he is free. 

god it makes me tear up just thinking about how happy i am for him despite how gutted i was by that scene??

(i could write a similar analysis for sam, about how he left for stanford to escape his life and how his finale life montage bits were the opposite of that, but honestly this post is long enough already).

Destiel is loosely a part of that promise in the sense that Castiel is a part of that promise. The symbol of free will

You make a super interesting argument about Cas being a symbol of free will. I don’t have much to say about it, because I’m gonna mull it over, because I think it’s kinda cool and I’ve never thought about it.

That’s - all i’ve got. thanks again for engaging. i’m happy to continue the convo if you have questions or want to reblog/reply 

(though my followers might hate me omg, i’ve been spamming long spn meta posts for weeks now, it’s just been so confronting to see the ongoing fan reaction on twitter and how divided it is...)

[mrswhozeewhatsis]

In the hours since I made THIS POST HERE, I have received two anon asks that I will address here. I’ve taken this time to nap, watch Jessica Jones (I really need more self-control or I would have been back here three episodes ago), eat, play with my cats, and -since you brought up the Pond- notify the other Pond admins that the Pond was brought into this. Here are the asks:

First, I have no idea if the second anon is the same as the first. If y’all are not the same person, then I’m sorry if I imply that you are, and vice versa.

Now, to address what was said. (Under the cut.)

The first anon must not have read my entire post. That’s okay. It was long. I babbled a bit. I do that. At no point did I heft a pitchfork or demand the lynching of all things SPN. In fact, I’m pretty sure I said I wasn’t really hefting much of anything, just doing the very, very least I could do to support my friends. I suggested that sending a message to the CW that they done fucked up was not a bad thing. 

(Side note: Yes, I now know that Misha has come out and told us that there was a rogue translator. This means that the CW did not fuck up the way I thought. I made my determination after reading several posts from folks who claimed to be in the know about such things, and based my feelings on those. Now that someone official has made a statement, I will abide by that statement.)

Nor did I say that I hate all things SPN. I talk about issues with the last two episodes, and my very low expectations for a network to allow a certain storyline, and suddenly y’all think I want to burn it to the ground? Is there no middle ground? Did you miss the part where I said they had good bones, it was just the details I thought failed? Maybe I just haven’t expressed my love for this show enough, lately. I’ve been critical, recently. More critical than usual, I’ll grant. I wrote an entire novel about an earlier s15 episode, too. But I still love this show. Loving the show does not mean I don’t see it’s imperfections, though.

“...your response is so gross against everyone who might see Dean as straight as Jensen does.”

Honestly, this statement right here kept me from my nap. This was before Misha came out and said that there was never any reciprocation on Dean’s part. This means, I’ve had to think this through twice, now.

BM (Before Misha): The whole reason why Dean responding in kind to Cas is important, is because it establishes Dean as queer. If this is true, then it’s canon that Dean has, at the very least, romantic feelings for one male-shaped being. I can’t help but be blown away by the hypocrisy of those who have screamed for years, “BUT HE’S CANONICALLY STRAIGHT,” and yet now deny canon because it says he’s queer.

AM (After Misha): Okay, so Dean is now back to being canonically straight. This means, there was no bait and switch. Everything that ticked me off has now not actually happened. Okie dokie. But apparently, I’m gross for saying he was queer when I thought canon stated he was queer? Would this person be as angry if I stated that Jo Harvelle had feelings for Dean? Because that, too, was canon. Maybe someone thinks that me thinking it meant they had to think it, too?

I have NEVER tried to force ANYONE to think ANYTHING about ANYONE’S sexuality. No matter how I may feel, those feelings are my headcanons, and I would NEVER force them on someone else. Ship and let ship. Love and let love. I don’t think I have, but I may have reblogged a post or two about Dean being queer in the past. If I did, I in NO WAY expect the people around me to believe the same things that I do. The idea that you think I’m forcing ANYTHING like that makes me physically sick.

*breathes deeply and pets a kitten* 

 Even in the case where, before Misha’s video, Dean was believed to be canonically queer, the most I would ever say is that he was canonically queer, but think what you like. Now, he’s canonically straight again, so those who want to think he’s queer can go off and keep thinking it, as far as I’m concerned. Personally, I will go back to sitting on the fence, enjoying thinking of Dean as simultaneously all sexualities, because then I can enjoy all the different stories about him on this hellsite and AO3.

As for stepping down from the Pond because I “hate all things SPN,” I will not because I do not. Like I said above, I have some issues with episodes, but I also love other episodes. I love the fandom, even though sometimes it gets a little toxic. I love the cast, the crew, most of the writers, the fan art, the fan fics, and most of all, the fan fic writers. I love reading everyone’s headcanons and stories. I love hearing other people’s interpretations of canon. This is the first show I’ve ever just crawled into and studied like this, and then wanted to go out and talk to other people about. This show has brought me so many friends that I would now do anything for. I’ve learned SO MUCH about how the world works for people who aren’t like me, and it’s all because we all love this show. It hurts that you think that, just because I might disagree with you or the network about something, that I hate you or the show. That WOULD be cancel culture. I don’t work that way.

To the second Anon, I saw Misha’s video and tweets, and they break my heart. I imagine him spending this whole week watching us be upset about something he loves, wanting to make it better for us, but not understanding why we’re upset. And then, today happens, and he has to respond, but he’s feeling so many different things. He’s proud of what he did with Cas. (I feel he should be.) He’s proud of being a part of 15 years of awesome television. It’s his baby. I mean, he shares it with hundreds of other cast and crew, but it’s a thing he made. And now, people who have always loved it, are protesting against it? The thing is, I don’t think anyone is mad at Misha or Cas. People are mad at the network, and possibly the writers, for taking us on a hike up a mountain and leaving us there with a broken camera. Yes, we got to see the view, but there was no little shop where we could buy a souvenir or a snack, no way immortalize the view like we wanted, and now we have to walk home alone without provisions. It was a nice hike, but we didn’t get the payoff we expected.

Seriously, I would love to sit down with Misha and have a long talk about how I loved 18 and everything he did in it, and then the (totally non-ship-related) reasons why 19 and 20 bug me. And then I’d like to hug it out with him. He’s a good hugger, I bet.

Finally, one last point, that has been unmentioned, but I can’t help but wonder if it is fueling some of this. Cas telling Dean that he loves him in a big, gay, romantic way is my definition of the good ship Destiel having sailed. Dean doesn’t have to love Cas back in a big, gay, romantic way for the ship to exist in canon. Becky and Sam is another canon ship, and that shit was definitely not reciprocated. Reciprocation is not necessary for a ship to be considered canon. So, when I say that Destiel is canon, I am NOT saying that Dean is queer.

I think that addresses everything, right? Sorry this post is so long. I’m a wordy bitch. 

[keagan-ashleigh]

I have read Misha's post on Facebook and I didn't know what to say or what to think. I said it over and over I have zero expectations so on one hand I am satisfied with Castiel being gay and didn't think they were going to show more than that, but on the other hand... reading that felt bitter. And there’s a couple things I’d like to answer to that.

I am trying to sort of explain all of this to myself, I’m trying to make sense of things, but what is clear to me is that: the CW is at fault, the showrunners, producers and writers are at fault too, and I think Misha is being honest. He genuinely doesn’t believe the CW censored destiel and maybe they haven’t in the way we’d want to think they did. But they did. 

Also, let’s be clear that there is something fishy in him saying there wasn’t some cut bits from 15x18 and no alternative ending when he, Jensen and even the writers admitted there was. I think maybe he was saying “there is no alternative gay ending for Dean”, still... I don’t know. But I believe him when he says there is no destiel conspiracy in which a gay scene existed but was censored - like I for a moment believed there was (I even twitted that yesterday). I am not so sure now but what I think is that it doesn’t matter HOW they fooled their queer audience, it’s the fact they did at all.

There was a form of interference and Misha needs to understand that people are right to be angry nonetheless. 

I  know that CW is still not a lgbt ally, however they have some lgbt friendly shows. They are probably the network that has the most lgbt characters.

Just to recap things a little bit and give sort of a context, from my perspective - I think it’s really important to know what are their other shows in term of representation - it’s probably gonna be a long read but bear with me:

I don't know them all but I am also a DC fan so I know the majority of the arrowverse shows are lgbt friendly, plus there is The 100, there was 3 lgbt characters in Vampire Diaries, I didn’t watch those but I think there was a little bit of representation in Gossip Girl, Riverdale, the Charmed reboot, the Roswell reboot, Beverly Hills reboot, The Originals and Legacy - and some others I don't remember here.

So yep, there is some representation and they truly believe it’s ok, they pat their backs calling themselves progressive for allowing one or two characters in each show to be lgbt, and sometimes the writers are good enough to make it good on screen (which really is the case for Black Lightning for instance).

And actually we owe the representation in the arrowverse shows to a gay producer named Greg Berlanti,  the CW allowed it, they didn’t came up with the idea.

The CW is not an ally, they are a company and they show what brings them money. And if you watch the shows I cited you know they are familiar with the bury your gays trope, maybe a little less blatantly than in Supernatural. As far as I know, in only three shows they have couples that are happy and that haven't been killed : Supergirl, Legends of Tomorrow (which is not that popular cause in terms of writing the first 2, 3 seasons were awful, it started being good when they got free to be more goofy and self-mocking) and Black Lightning - which btw has not been renewed for a 5th season and Supergirl has one season left too - with all the arrowverse shows ending one after the other I can only predict LoT won't last much longer - there would be Batwoman but we don’t see a settled couple, we see a broken relationship and since they chose not to recast the lead, they have made the subsequent decision not to give this relationship a satisfying resolution).

There is a number of issues with the representation in those shows, but yeah, the arrowverse is progressive because the shows producers, the writers and the CW were on board for that. It wasn’t the case for Supernatural who has had more BYG than all the other CW shows united - because CW had better interests in making it the way it is, and because the writers are not that good. I keep repeating it but it’s true, they also are to blame, THEY wrote the BYG in the show and they wrote that ending. It was possible for a better representation in spn if everyone tried. Only the actors tried, that’s the problem, and they don’t have much hold on what can and cannot be done. 

Supernatural is different in CW eyes - not because it is their most popular show in terms of audience - I know everyone says that but when you look at the numbers The Flash is actually their top popular show (and that is why it will be the last big arroverse show to go, what will stay will be Stargirl, maybe Batwoman for one or two seasons), it’s the one that has the most viewers, it was racking up 1.2 million viewers in 2019 against 1.1 for Supernatural (x) - without counting the illegal streaming and downloading), Supernatural only comes second in terms of audience in 2019/2020 (and it is important to note that) (it was also second best in 2017, this is not only true for 19/2020 (x) ). But it it special in terms of status and fanbase, it doesn’t have the most viewers but it a show that have a consistent audience; it is big to them nonetheless. Just as this article explains: “Supernatural’s linear ratings have faded. But its importance to the CW, however, hasn’t”.

 At this point you will note that The Flash has, in terms of representation, one (1) gay character that is a secondary one (David Singh, the chief of Central police) and he is mentioned to be gay.

Supernatural is important to them because Supernatural’s ratings influence their other shows and the network as a whole.

It is also because they have a contract with Jared for Walker and they don't want it to fail (Supernatural and the arrowverse shows are all coming to an end rn so they need a new golden goose), if they have had shown interest in being lgbt friendly with this show they would have done it earlier. This only means that it's not financially worthy for them. 

All of this only shows that the CW has monetary interests and that you need everyone involved to make it work. It worked for the arrowverse because the producer pushed and because it was actually a form of queerbaiting for the CW. This ensures that the lgbt people have what they want and they get to have their money, but they don’t loose their straight audience either. They don’t touch Supernatural and The Flash because that’s their big money makers. 

So, as a conclusion, what this context definitely show us is that they aren’t interested in progress in itself, they are interested in profit. They give us lgbt representation as long as it’s their interest to do so. Castiel was gay so episode 19 and 20 ratings could skyrocket, don’t let yourself think it was for the love of progress. No, Misha, there wasn’t the kind of conspiracy you describe, but the CW still wronged its viewers and weren’t well intentioned. And the showrunners did us wrong too because they wrote that and they wrote Dean impaled on a nail and Sam miserably codependent with his brother. I do believe they didn’t actually wrote destiel, but they cut out the possibility of it being written, mainly because they are the network’s bitches and because they don’t have interest in writing it. 

Misha might be well intentioned by saying what he said but he’s wrong, The CW did interfere and sort of censored destiel, if not by subtilizing a script for another by preventing it to be written at all. Whether he knows and he is coverint the CW whether he doesn’t know at all, but, he’s wrong to defend them - the network as well as the writers. 

I still think we were robbed and I understand why he thinks it's not a bury your gays because Cas goes to heaven but he's not sitting in our seat, however great of an ally he is, I am sorry to say he just don't feel it like lgbt fans do. Another point that has to be made is that not every representation is good representation, and it doesn’t matter that Castiel is alive and reconstructing heaven if we don’t SEE IT, if we don’t see him at all nor the effects of his self realisation, it might as well mean it didn’t matter, Cas is gay but it had absolutely zero importance. It has only shown the character being erased afterward. Sure he was resurrected but it still was wiped out of the writing, you’ve GOT to understand bury your gays doesn’t necessarily means the character has been LITERALLY killed, it means it has been taken out of the narrative. Like, for example, Claire has been erased from the narrative, we never see her again once she’s revealed to be a lesbian, even though subtextually she’s fine and happy.

Misha is sweet and the fact he is always on board to learn and spread love is amazing and I love him for that but he is wrong here and he should listen and learn what BYG effectively means. 

I kinda want to copy paste that into another post because it is important and I wish someone would say that to him, I am sure he is kind enough to listen.

What we’re also mad about isn’t only that Castiel has been erased. It’s that Dean has been erased too and doesn’t get to answer and give a full closure to this narrative. Castiel being gay is huge, I said that already, but it’s only half satisfying if he doesn’t get to be with the man he loves and who loves him in return, or if he doesn’t get an answer. Maybe it wasn’t written, maybe it was censored, no matter what, Dean’s love was there and it should have been acknowledged. And after all, I wouldn’t have been mad about them writing a platonic answer because it would have been an answer (even though I wouldn’t have been satisfied because in the whole context of television, there is not enough gay couples that are settled and not written in traumatic way). The fact no one acknowledges the fact Castiel was gay, it’s hurting, from our perspective. It’s like he spoke his truth but wasn’t heard. 

And that is a problem. Not every representation is a good representation and people need to understand how offensive it is to us to hear “well you should be happy we’ve given you that much” - especially when in the whole picture, there is like TWO shows that aren’t about homosexuality that shows a healthy relationship between two lgbt characters without one of the two be killed or erased from the narrative.

We deserve more than the bare minimum.

So, okay, no, the mexican sub wasn’t the proof of a manipulation (and nonetheless we just can’t tell because there is NO objective evidences), BUT THAT DOESN’T MEAN ANY OF THAT IS OK.

I love Misha Collins, I think he is a beautiful human being, but he doesn’t possibly know why we are hurt and I am sad he didn’t think this further. 

[ride-or-die-otps]

Because stuff keeps happening here’s some more thoughts: (maybe skip if your trying to just focus on the euphoria of Latin America dub bi!dean)

So when I first saw that there was a dub with dean reciprocating I was very happy like a lot of people are. Vindication and all that. But I’m also so mad. I’ll try to break down the reasons why but it might be a mess.

1. Obviously some fuckery went on with editing deans reaction, which we knew already. But I didn’t think think they had cut out an explicit reciprocation and to find out they did pisses me off so much more.

2. Someone either the writers or the network decided at some point to back pedal away from canon destiel. I don’t know if it was the writers or the network, and frankly I don’t care right now. But someone decided for whatever reason to erase the queerness from the final episodes. That is cruel to queer fans because it sends the message that they can erase is from stories and that our stories are disposable.

3. I believe that something happened with the finale, maybe 15x19 too, and they took out more of the deatiel resolution, whether through editing or writing bc of ‘covid’ - which bullshit - but I think they always planned on killing Dean the way they did and I think that was what Jensen had a problem with (that’s just speculation). The reciprocation doesn’t fix the bury your gays. For me personally it makes it worse, Dean is killed off after he finally finally expresses his true self and comes out and then is brutally murdered and dies terrified. That feels like more of a slap in the face than if they hadn’t ever planned on doing the reciprocation and leaving it ‘open for interpretation’. It just feels like with dean saying I love you back and then murdering him really hammers in the message of if you tell your truth look what happens, queer people don’t get to be happy when they’re alive.

I’ve said it before but honestly I wish they wouldn’t have given us destiel at all if this is what they think we deserve. I would’ve preferred to be able to read in between the lines and read fanfics and metas about destiel without the canon confirmation than to have the canon confirmation but have it be this mangled mess of censorship and bury your gays, because at least with the non canon option I wouldn’t have had to see them murder a canon queer character and couldve just said they’re bad writers for killing him off, but now it’s soaked in homophobia.

I don’t how coherent this is but I needed to get it out of my head.

[piet-ra]

Here are my thoughts on the whole supernatural thingy:

(Spoilers for spn and she-ra i guess)

I don't know if I'm happy for it even existing, if I'm mad at the writers for not doing it sooner, if I'm mad at myself for being slightly pleased that the bare minimum exists when we clearly deserve so much more.

But mostly I think I'm just annoyed and angry. My devotion to the fandom and the show died many years ago and now I just casually read something here and there about the show. Even though I watched 9 seasons non-stop and was a very dedicated Destiel shipper.(and yes Carry on my wayward song is still great and now I can associate it with the actual developed gay couple of Carry on - Rainbow Rowell) So, when I heard "Destiel is Canon" it felt like I never left seeing how excited I was. Then, I was surprised. I felt like it came out of fucking nowhere. And very late at that. I go watch the rest show. Surprise surprise it did come out of nowhere. I had a hard time processing it. And now Imma lay down my reasoning behind being mad even though no one actually gives a shit.

First, right out of the gate, what pisses me off is the lack of actual build up. Yes, the fans have been calling it for years. But the fans were also searching for breadcrumbs due to a lack of representation. Fans were projecting and trying to find subtext. I was one of them. Never there was explicit enough reasons to canonically think they were a thing or would ever become one. And now the writers went there and gave us a feeling of false vindication by saying "you were right all along, we were dropping hints" when it has certainly not been the case. I doubt (like rly rly doubt) that their intention when writing spn back then was to make destiel a thing. They hadn't even planned for half the shit that went down but y'all want me to believe destiel of all things was the exception? Meh. But even if I'm being really generous and giving them the benefit of the doubt, it still stands that they could have done it a long long time ago. Which takes me to the second reason why I'm mad.

The timing is ridiculously convenient for the writers. The show has been running for FIFTEEN years, it has FIFTEEN seasons and they choose the third to last episode to make it happen? And then HE DIES AND IS SENT TO MEGA HELL after confesssing his gay feelings??? With only two more episodes left, I'll let you wager on how much of actual destiel we'll get. That is, if Dean EVER reciprocates, because it was not explicit at all.(c'mon Jensen, you can do better than that) The dying thing is a massive problem, but not as much as when it happens. Because this is still supernatural and everyone has died and come back to life at least five hundred thousand times before. They could have kept the scene as it was, only a few seasons before. Then we'd actually have decent moments of consequence to the confession, conflict, build up to an actual romantic relationship if they did not mean for it to be one sided, dean confronting his feelings and all that jazz. But no, we get the bare minimum and after this the show ends if people are upset about it, they will no longer have to deal with that shit.

Even though they knew destiel was immensely popular in the fandom for AGES, it seems that now that some popular lgbtq+ couples/shows have arisen and have been received (mostly) positively, they wanted to jump in the band wagon, but not so much that it would anger their straight prejudiced viewers. Cw shows, huh? It's like we're doing it, but we're not committing to it. And if you don't like it, we have already milked everything from you anyways, cause y'know the show is ending in a couple of weeks. AND WHAT IS WORSE. If Destiel didn't happen, I don't think it would be a Sherlock case where something feels off and weird and the lack of it feels forced. Since Dean has been stablished since the beginning as liking women and all indication of otherwise can fall under plausible deniability and fans reading too much into it, I don't really think they would receive big amounts backlash for not doing it or be criticized for it. Fans really have resigned themselves years ago that Destiel wouldn't ever happen. And if they are doing it just to avoid backlash is bad, but if not, then why? To make the show relevant again by trending Destiel? To play on the popularity of the ship? Idk and Idc. They can have the bestest of intentions, but it was done poorly. And now, since the lack of build up is a problem, it - and it reallly pains me to say this - feels forced/aka censored. (I hate myself right now for saying this aaaaaaaaaaaaaa).

It is not good representation. (And seeing as my tumblr is basically she-ra focused, I'm anticipating people saying that that also happens in she-ra. But when the show has never shied away from representation, good casual represation, like having two dads, two moms, a married lesbian couple, a non-binary character amongst other things, I can't find it in me to say it does not have good representation. And the characters only getting together at the end fits their development and personality. And we had a whole season to develop them coming to terms with loving the person who's supposed to be your enemy, but was once your best friend and now fights alongside you and you now realized you love. Supernatural feels like fucking pandering.)

However, it is kinda maybe sorta representation still. And - that depends on how they play it out on the next two episodes - I don't feel it is particularly damaging(except the mega hell thibgy, but again, it is spn); It was not advertised as an lgbtq+ show nor used the couple to promote their season, so yeah kay fine, I'm still gonna laugh at ya.

So, having already had a weak spot for Destiel in the first place, I can't stop feeling a bit happy that at least Cas fessed up and we might get something. It can't be used as a example of great representation, but I'm not mad the ship exists. I'm just really really mad at how it was done.(not only because y'know, I'm queer, but also because the fans and the couple deserve better.)

[tonyglowheart]

This entire thing is a rant, feel free to ignore it, but I saw your post about how destiel fans can’t win in this context, and yeah. So have some rambles.

I’ve been thinking about the fact we (current spn/destiel fans) can’t win all night... I’ve seen so many people talking about how homophobic it is - and while I would very much like to argue, as every point I’ve seen made by a non-spn fan has been wrong so far, if I did everyone inside the fandom would agree and everyone outside would either call me straight or pity me for believing it’s okay.

(Cas wasn’t even sent to hell lmao. He was sent to angel death (the empty), a place he has escaped in the past. Other points, like that meta about spn has been predicting exactly this for months, that Dean ended up sobbing on the floor because he was so upset, like that death means next to nothing on spn, like that there is two episodes left, etc etc. you feel me right? I just don’t want to post wank to other spn blogs atm, we’re getting enough frustration as it is, no need to add to it.

It’s also worth pointing out that the bar is very, very low. Spn is a prominent TV show - not a Netflix show, or indie, or whatever - and it just said “main character in gay love saved the world”. [insert gif of ghostfacers dude saying that gay love can pierce through the veil of death and save the day here]

I just saw someone saying that spn having Naomi try to brainwash Cas out of loving dean makes spn homophobic (it is a conversion therapy parallel). My first response to that is that Naomi was the villain lmao? I guess we can’t write villains doing anything homophobic because having villains do homophobic things makes, uh - checks notes - villains look homophobic, and clearly we can’t have that.

There certainly are legitimate things to criticise spn about, but this isn’t it lol.

Also now some people are unironically trying to cancel Jensen because “his acting was homophobic, and so he’s clearly homophobic”, nevermind that he’s an actor and his character struggles with understanding his emotions (which I think he played excellently, myself. That scene had a very Dean delayed emotional response), nevermind the support he’s given to us queers in the past. Like. Idek man.

We would have been laughed at if we got no destiel, too.

It would have been worse, had the writers pulled a dumbledore. At this point I also trust the writers not to pull a GoT - they have explicitly criticised that ending in spn’s canon.

Spn’s writers did that by making the main villain of this season, Chuck / God, say GoT had a good ending. To reiterate a previous point I had: villains do bad things because they’re bad. And the bad things they do make them bad. For the people out there not still following, if someone does something in a story and it makes them a villain, that is explicitly telling you the story (and probably the writers) thinks that thing is bad. In this case, Chuck likes to write things for him, and we the audience have been shown and told that is bad.

Apparently thinking a gay confession is good in 2020 makes me straight. Seems unlikely, but whatever. Sorry for the length, I guess I went overboard, I’ve been holding it in lol. Anyway, DESTIEL IS CANON 💚💙 hope you have a good night

Helloo supernatural anon I hope you are living your best life right now. Yeah I’m like..... skeptical and leery myself but having lived through some absolute garbage discourse that is general purity wank, as well as the C/QL greater fandom here and on Twitter I find myself... much more wanting to question the “general wisdom” of things esp in terms of negativity, bc a lot of the time I find.... it’s wrong? Like so wrong. Or at least presents such an incomplete picture of the whole situation and also presents it in such a removed context that words that have meaning and are operationalized in a certain way for a reason, no longer have meaningful usage.

Anyway I don’t... know too much about the specifics of Spn but someone I follow is into it and talks a lot about the Gnostic stuff and that all was very fascinating to me, and I also have been grappling a lot with cultural Christianity bc of cmedia and the way ppl just *clenches fist* unthinkingly or uncritically slap some Christian norms on it and call it a day 😩 help I’m Tired. My thing here being... I actually got tired of the uncritical “superhell”s at some pt bc I am, in fact, incredibly exhausted with cultural Christianity, and because it does seem like, even possibly(?) without the Gnostic stuff it’s different from a “hell” or other Protestant-derived afterlife concept, and also yeah that it wasn’t seeded out of nowhere, it was set up to happen, which then... lends credence to the idea that whatever the current era of Spn is doing, the current showrunners are doing it with purpose.

And idk I just... refuse to believe the concept that ALL of the fans of Spn - esp the ones who have been following it still, or got back into it and are following it currently, are acting under delusion or are fooling themselves into liking it or thinking it’s good or whatever. I personally find that kinda infantilizing and patronizing and playing into issues of dismissing things women and/or other marginalized identities like.

Plus I find the concept that (from what I think I’ve been seeing Spn fans say) that the current era of the show is quite actively grappling with itself, its past, its legacy. to be very interesting and compelling; it hearkens back to like an old lore kind of feeling, of a thing that has grown into a nigh undefeatable monster and realizing that, also realizing that the only way to defeat itself is through grappling with its own nature and transforming and transmuting itself into something else. I personally find that more plausible and compelling than “Supernatural has been actively and continuously queerbaiting for 15 homophobic homophobic years., so right now we’re all very sorry for you because this maybe is no longer queerbaiting but it’s still homophobic and it can never be anything different ever.” I’ve been sort of tangentially aware of Spn thru the years and didn’t we agree, around the time of that in-universe play about Spn and with the lil Destiel shoutout, that Spn has come a ways as far as coming to terms with its fandom and working to treat its fans better? Why the sudden regression into “oh no, Supernatural is and forever will be homophobic and a hate crime”? 🤔 

The rest under a cut bc the ask is already long and then my rambling will get longer-

But yeah I mean..... I get that the legacy of Supernatural has been certifiably Rough, but I think people also forget how different of a time 2005 was? Hell, how different of a time 2015 was, even, prior to, say, Obergefell v. Hodges. Now I’m not saying that to blanket-excuse Supernatural, but like, you look at mainstream shows from the era and... there’s a lot of shit lmao. The fact that Supernatural has existed this long seems to me like.... maybe we CAN look at how it’s developed through the years vs just insisting it is what it was 15, 10, hell, 5 years ago. Especially since, to my knowledge, there’s been showrunner changes? Which seems to me like it would... affect things? I mean honestly, I remember back when I got into Spn for a hot second because of Castiel, I remember watching panel, Q&A, etc vids thru the years, and like... I thought we agreed that... it was the fans who were going a bit far pushing the shipping question like literally ALL the time to the actors, who are not in control of the show and.... like at the time.... that could have had personal implications for them? And yes homophobia bad, and people can still be allies despite that, but again like.... I do feel like - from what I’ve seen - that these guys were NOT ready to deal with a lot of that but they’ve (okay Jensen I’m talking about Jensen here) genuinely grown and learned? Also how many years ago was the essay autograph thing that people keep trotting out, like what year was it in and what year of spn was it, and what were the prevailing opinions on LGBT issues and bisexuality then.

I’ve been seeing some murmurings of identity politicsing surrounding ppl who enjoy Supernatural, and I’m sorry that that’s happening to you, it really fucking sucks and it’s also the dumbest way to “make” or “win” an argument because it shouldn’t ever be a final determiner, just factors to consider when considering what life experiences might have informed someone else’s PoV and views as well as maybe how you can better communicate with them. Instead of it being a “weapon” or “tool” to either dismiss someone or de facto validate an argument.

Also yeah I get it that you don’t want to send discourse to spn blogs bc I imagine you guys ARE actively grappling with all the bs rn and it’s a lot. Even just from like, the stuff I see around, I’m like tired of it. I’m genuinely having more fun with ppl who are having a good time with Supernatural than the ppl who are hating on it, even in this sort of backhanded “oh we’re not clowning YOU we’re clowning the writers and showrunners who think you should be satisfied with this,” when... yeah? the people who HAVE been watching the show and therefore... know what’s up.. DO seem to be? And all this based on *fake gasp* context. And that’s where the backhandedness becomes kind of poisonous to me, because it implies that it IS bad, and that you SHOULDN’T be satisfied, but poor little you are but don’t worry, we’re not making fun of YOU for liking garbage, you’re just the hapless victim who is consuming the garbage bc... idk, whatever reasons ppl are coming up with ig.

idk man it’s 2020. Fandom isn’t activism, performative or otherwise, it’s okay to let people enjoy things even if you think they’re “objectively” bad, and like... I don’t know if people can call something bad when they’re not even working with the whole context and instead are dealing with rumor and reputation.