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rxttenfish · 1 year ago

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Asking because I’m extremely curious about this, how did MonProm’s writing get different over time? I remember you saying that the lore and characters feel different, and that it's missing sincere character interactions, too. I know almost nothing about the lore and I’ve only seen a few people mention the characters, so I’d be interested in a rundown of what aspects you think got worse in the series

I wouldn’t mind a very long response since I’m not that active in the fandom, I need to catch up on what happened

sorry for taking so long to answer this! i kinda waffled on it for a long bit, mainly because i started doubting myself again, and whether or not this was me simply overreacting or being tinted by nostalgia or simply being extremely picky and choosy in what i like (the last of which is true, i seldom get into fandoms at all for this reason and stay away from most popular media, but i wasn't sure if it applied here). i've posted about it already, but i'm in the middle of a psychotic episode where i can't feel a lot of pleasure to begin with + most things i do experience ending up solidly in the "very bad" category, so as you can imagine, i really didn't want to mislead and check that i was actually in objective reality.

as it is, this is also when a lot more screenshots started to be posted in the monster prom tag, and that helped me bridge the gap back into returning to the games themselves and feel like i was making a more accurate judgement. if you're one of those people who have been posting screenshots, i sincerely thank you, and i appreciated seeing you in the tag greatly.

for those not in the know — i've been in the monster prom fandom since it first released, prior to even the first additional ending to be added (the "Punch the sun" ending, and i recall the minor fandom drama that happened at that time due to it). my impression of monster prom is very much influenced by this, as what got me into the first game was the fact that the characters genuinely seemed to care for each other and were friends with each other (not merely tolerating each other's presences nor dressing it up, they sincerely thought of each other as friends and were open about that fact), on top of the wide variety of small details and statements that, if taken at face value, could create compounding complexity in the lives of each and every character and had wider implications for their lives.

no, they were not necessarily explored nor even necessarily "real", with so many conflicting events and statements, but i liked this too, because it meant a wider flexibility in what you could imagine, helping to create a more tailored experience for everyone who thought about these characters. this was what i liked about the early fandom too. what was baseline "canon" was so vague and minimal that you could have wildly different interpretations of the same characters' histories and relationships with each other. you would have radically different perspectives on what the world itself looked like, what it was like, that there wasn't really any wrong answers so long as their personalities remained the same. this is where you got the old headcanon of polly and liam being childhood friends who knew each other as humans, or that the world of monster prom was post-apocalypse where humanity itself had gone extinct or only existed in tiny pockets, or my personal headcanon that both monster and human society existed right next to each other and had minimal crossover for petty cultural reasons. this was also prior zoe-as-ro, and there were wildly different interpretations of zoe's personality, with most going for a far more disquieting creepy-cute than the deep nerd we got.

this is why you get stuff like the timeloop theory, where everyone is repeating the same weeks leading up to prom over and over, and are perhaps vaguely aware of it but broadly unconcerned. this is also why it felt like the joke that, the characters were still in high school but were all fully legal adults with most in their 20's, best landed, because it was absurd and strange and didn't quite make sense, but the world itself was inherently absurd and semi-malleable to begin with. realistically, i felt like everyone understood it was making fun of the trope of having adults play teenagers in american sitcoms and wildly casting outside the age range, but for more in-universe explanations it wasn't any different from the way that you would have a large, dramatic ending in which everything changed, but then you'd restart and everyone would be right back at the beginning with nothing different, or even having conflicting events in the same run. it was a dream-logic that fit with the tropes and, thus, diagetically made sense.

to be clear, i don't mind canon having a set, well, canon on which it refers back to itself. i don't mind expanding that or including more things which are set in stone. but there was a perceivable shift in how the games handled this over time, becoming a lot more... bitter, it felt, towards all of these different branching ideas and concepts that, yeah, the people making them knew wouldn't necessarily be "canon" because "canon" already liked to contradict itself so much. most people weren't even sold on any one idea, and there was a much greater sense of enjoying and appreciating all the varying ideas people would come up with even if you personally didn't share them. making the characters be out of character was the real crime, because then it didn't diagetically make sense in the same way, didn't wholly fit.

(again, this is not to say fanon didn't happen and characters weren't smoothed down into a simplified personality that fit these varying fan-interpretations instead of the game itself. certainly damien love/lust was just as bad as it had ever been, and everyone loved to mangle his character into a more stereotypical "bad boy with a heart of hold" all the time. but it certainly felt less set-in-stone about it than it does now, with any deviation from the norm being considered strange and odd and even broadly shunned from the wider fandom.)

all of this is setup for establishing what the writing, lore, and characters felt like in the earlier days. the characters were the strongest part, with their relationships to each other being equally as important. the lore played it fast and loose and was far less interested in setting anything in concrete because that wasn't the important part. the lore wasn't the important part, which was what made it all the more intoxicating to think about, all the more fun to play with.

montrip is easily the biggest offender when it comes to setting everything in all-or-nothing terms and demanding absolutism from the world. broadly i blame the hitchhiker conversations for the worst of it, but i think ultimately the way they handled the entire premise of the game is where this problem stems from. it's not really an exploration in the same sense that you might explore the first game, discovering different perspectives and different people with different relationships to each other. it's an exploration in the sense of a sequel that over-explains the monster, that takes the most boring option out of all those that were possible and floating around and settles on something that was blatant, obvious, typically rejected not because of how novel it is but how trite and par for the course it is in the rest of the genre.

yeah, okay. humans know nothing about monsters and there's a "monster dimension" that exists separately from the human dimension. there's no crossover between the two of them. of course there's a big grand-scale fight between the eldritch powers that zoe used to be a part of, from which not only are slayers the main organization against them, but also the merkingdom has some horse in this race too. it's an urge to make things so universal in explaining them, in revealing connecting threads which unite everything that's ever happened in here, that makes the worldbuilding and lore immediately much more boring than it ever was before.

and it didn't have to be this way! nothing in the first game contradicts any of this too explicitly (see the above, the first game loves to contradict itself), and i would even be happy if this was basically canon but never stated or confirmed to be the big overarching everything going on underneath it all. i believe you should probably know these things about any world that you create and have them in the back of your mind. the difference is that you can know these things and keep them in mind, even focusing on things where its very relevant, and still not reveal them. this is why you have lore bibles, after all. every horror writer knows exactly how their monster works and the full underlying reason for everything that happens, but that doesn't mean the audience will see it or possess this same information too, and leaving it intentionally obscure will make far better stories.

which, this is bad enough, but it wouldn't be the breaking point for me if this was all there was.

but the worst thing of all has to be the slow decay of the very same characters that sold me on this world, this lore, this game in the first place. monster prom is nothing without the characters in it. it's a dating sim, it has nothing but characters to get you to play, and liking these characters are the entire reason anyone would pick up monster prom in the first place.

and the first game pulls this off extremely well. it's all in the tagline: be your worst self. they are, indeed, all terrible people. yes, even that character that you just thought of right now. they all have points in the game where they commit atrocities, where they kill or hurt people, where they do inexcusable things that could not be ignored in a more serious setting.

but that's the point. i think there's something very powerful in creating a character who not only do you love and love their personality and the way they interact with the world, but who also are inapologetically terrible, and to have the humor and the charisma be so good that you don't get bogged down in the "this is awful". likewise, it never feels the urge to really go out of its way to justify what's going on. this is not to say theres no discussion of if someone "deserved it", but usually there's still the sense that the joke is on them, that this is still an extreme reaction specifically for comedy and not necessarily something that can be justified. you can have damien set leonard on fire and have it feel earned, without prompting the needed reaction of what it's actually like to watch someone burn to death.

this is what sets the prank masterz ending apart from the rest of the game, and really establishes it as the first real "bad ending". because nothing that you do or happens in the prank masterz ending is any different from anything else that happens in any other run. you summon evil beings from other dimensions as a throwaway gag on how visiting one location raises your stats. you kill other people and damn them to terrible fates. you watch as body horror happens. the only difference is that, in the prank masterz ending, the laugh track doesn't play.

the rest of the game and the writing echoes this philosophy, this careful interplay of tropes that keeps everything tongue in cheek and yet sincere enough to make sure emotional beats still land when they're needed. the characters feel true to themselves and their own emotions, even when the world is extreme and excessive, when everything else runs on comedy logic.

this is also what i noticed failing first as time went on.

like i said, fanon has always existed and there's always been very specific ideas as to what characters are like in the same way fanon always flattens down characters into the same tropes over and over. scott is stupid and innocent and doesn't know what sex is. damien is violent and hot and too cool for anyone else. miranda is the idiot girl character. repeat over and over and over until you get sick of it.

but it's been an issue as time has crept on that canon has started to approach fanon and began to merge with it. now, scott is so innocent that he can't even curse. polly starts being mean to her friends and saying things that would be very hurtful to hear. the merkingdom isn't really super evil and fucked up, it's just miranda that's like that. they become simpler, easier to digest, streamlined for social media posts and mass-sharing. they become less and less subversions of existing tropes and moreso just another example of them, something else to add to the collection, not their own individual stories.

even further from this, what more complex traits they had are now stated and not shown. polly is stated to be smart and clever in a way that her party girl persona doesn't imply and to be sincerely rather down to earth with the people she cares about, but we seldom ever see this anymore unless its the game specifically trying to make a point about it, in which case it won't let her do anything that implies cleverness and moreso will just outline it in the narration. vera is stated to care for people in a very genuine and heartfelt way, but seldom will get a chance to do so, and every opportunity for her to do so to their faces is missed while she will just outright state it later. it does not feel consistent, it does not feel like any of these are intended reads of their actions. it feels like the devs have something they want to do but no idea on how to actually do so. and forget it if you want these traits to manifest in small ways that show up in unrelated moments and scenes.

the dialogue becomes harder and harder to tell between each speaker, if you are just looking at what's said and not at the pictures attached to it. the characters' distinct voices have been eroded away, so that they speak more and more like each other, relaying the same terms and ideas in the same words. perspective becomes a suggestion, instead of a must.

this is something that started back in monster camp too, as all of the endings in that game felt ultimately the same as every other ending. it's very hard to place or define the full reason why, why there feels like there's no emotional stakes nor investment, why everything feels moreso like selecting different coats of paint and trying to find all the different ending pictures rather than being interested in exploring the characters as characters.

stranger yet, the series that started with the tagline of "be your worst self" has experienced a kind of... softening, for lack of a better word? what i mentioned about being able to handle the balance between terrible people who do terrible things and the light tone of the game starts to change, as abruptly the same characters who were down with violent murder in the first game start to lose their nerve, acting more and more on more typical morality. it's one of those things that feels like it's starting to damage the tone, as abruptly it's not as absurd as it used to be, demands less suspension of disbelief which could buffer and support the rest of the setting on it. there's even a part in one of the endings in montrip which involves current-polly and current-scott looking back on their monprom selves and reacting in horror at how violent and careless their pranks are, in a way that fundamentally felt like it was undercutting and disparaging all the things that felt fun and made monprom what it was.

which is odd, really, because more and more i feel like the characters in these games like each other less and less. the friendships and genuine enjoyment of each others company that brought me to this game in the first place has gone. now they don't mention each other as much, don't care for each other's feelings and reactions as much, aren't as willing to support each other. they are more and more found on their own, relied on their own, seem to seek out contact and interaction with their own friends less and less. it feels like they're all separating out into their own worlds, but also feels like they wouldn't willingly want to interact with each other if they weren't already forced together by some other outside contrivance.

if anything, i'd compare it to every other dating sim out there, where you, the player, are the most important person in these characters' lives, and they only feel ambivalent or antagonistic towards every other character. which, again, is not why i picked up monster prom or why i liked it so much in the first place.

and it's because of this that it feels like the current state of the series has to focus on its increasingly weak worldbuilding and lore, trying to form a more serious foundation without character relationships being so tightly bound together, without the characters themselves being more developed and rich, without an aspect of absurd humor to rely on.

more and more i've noticed monprom has to rely on referencing other series to make itself funny and create humor, which, again, it's always done. it was just easier to ignore back then, if you didn't know what was being referenced, because there was always more going on in the exact same scene to bolster it and give context clues as to the setup and punchline at play. it feels like the current games are much more dependent on you knowing pop culture references in order to have any fun with it, and i'm someone who, again, is very picky in what i like or what i'll seek out. i'm not interested in a stream of references about other things that i would much rather be doing than playing through a game that feels like it hates that i like it at all, when i could, again, just be engaging with the thing that takes itself seriously and knows what it wants.

#all the care guide says is 'biomass'#monster prom #asks #vanillabeenflower #this is. so long i am so sorry.#and its still not my entire thoughts because i have so many thoughts #this is an unedited ramble tbh and im very sorry for that #i have more complaints like #how fucking snide and condescending the narration is to its own characters #which it already had but gets even worse in the later games #which is why despite loving aaravi i dont want to play moncamp at all #where a character says they like something or feel something and the narration has to be so. sarcastic about it?#like how i mentioned about how it feels like how its looking down on them as people #instead of whats probably the intended read which is #more jokingly calling them dumb in an affectionate way like how you might do with friends #and ofc theres the whole miranda rant #i hate what theyve done with the merkingdom and i HATE adrien as a concept i wont lie #just. cool. this female character is too stupid to count as a lore character. we obviously need a MALE character to fill in instead #we cant just have miranda talk about this or center any of the other female characters #and how they feel about this and whats going on for them #no we need to make up a new man to talk to instead #im. im still really bitter about it i wont lie.#like i said i could go on and get way more specific about it #i just feel like any and all emotional weight to this has died and the characters are more and more obviously actors on a stage #for your own self gratification rather than their own people living their own lives #this is so bitter and i really shouldnt put this in the main tag #i am so sorry everyone who will see my rant. but my peace must be made.#dont worry im already asking myself if im just making all this shit up myself #what if some of us liked that the characters were so mean to the player and had no qualms about aggressively rejecting us #because it gave some illusion of them being able to make their own choices and decisions in what they wanted

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death-by-mercury · 1 year ago

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lunarharp · 2 years ago

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qifrey & the gals

#witch hat tag #more recent things. i already miss the motivation and peace of mind inherent to being offline i was drawing so freely and happily Hahhhhhhh #i miss you i love you i need you (talking to the state of being Officially Offline) coco thinking she's the 5th household member...#and not the 6th makes me think of my irl dad. kid me thought they were his firstborn child and turns out i'm his. 6th.#sorry for the very wild cai lore. qifrey 🤝 my father: Mayhaps i could reveal just how many children there are or maybe not teehee

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hexxter · 6 months ago

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Player 2:

- not even out yet

My brain:

OK but Player 3 would be lit

They could be Sora, Yozora…

Or a background faceless character we didn’t knew about in the games till will point out later

They could be a character in Quadratum as they’re pretty much dead so

They could have their heart resting in another’s person (subject x for example)

Idk just give me Player 3.. Player 2 is confirmed dead anyway 😔

#kingdom hearts #player #khml #khux #kh player #theory #if its counts as one #i just wanna see player get their happy ending too #and we know player 2 is dead #let them meet Ventus and Skuld again #maybe even talk to ephemer’s spirit in the graveyard #never gave up on other characters not gonna give up on player #and they are so important too #they deserve and need to be in a console game pls #🙏🏻#if they will get to meet with strelitzia that would be so crazy #if they come back they better bring Brain back too as well lol #also i really wanna see them kick ass with the foretellers again #specially if they have memories of they keyblade war #i would never forgive them and wanna kick ass again now that they are back to the lore #foretellers be like who is this random kid #the random kid be really wanting revenge #or they could actually already made peace with everything and help with whatever Luxu is planning #player 3 have so much pondering pls pls pls #make them real #also dang i missed Ephemer’s birthday 😔#didn’t even knew he had one??

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telesodalite · 6 months ago

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Aughhhh

#im reaching the point where the whole 'no sleep' thing is catching up big time #and even attempting to articulate my thoughts about them rn might give me a migraine #so. in short #im just pointing at them in hysterics #i need them to viscerally eat each other. or just like. genuinely talk or smth #ok. ok i need to sleeps now or im gonna make less sense than i already do #fuck. ok. sorry for *gestures vaguely* and good morning. peace out #im done with the screenshots now

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no1ryomafan · 9 months ago

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I decide to change my pic to this fuck ass ryoma frame and I would say I have a new related ramble to accompany this but instead my brain has continuously wander back to the smallest detail of “how many fucking years was arma ryoma actually in jail” and I wish it didn’t because it’s so insignificant to the plot but my brain REFUSES to let it go.

#meg text #getter robo #I can’t make it a coherent post so text wall in tags awaaaaay #but seriously I’m in this weird spot where I’m at peace stuff in armas early eps were dropped and the show still good despite the flaws #we will never know what the FUCK was up with hayato and it’s best to not think too deeply about it #but then my brain goes back to “okay but HOW many years was ryoma in jail?” and I start going crazy #I assumed it was 3 years because they said the getter team project disband and Saotome was dead but- it could’ve been shorter #I mainly wonder this because Genki looks the same between that flashback and current #and obviously while everyone handles trauma differently it’s crazy how this child still barely talks in 3 years #ryoma and hayato also don’t look that different #I may need to rewatch arma even though I already did my yearly rewatch of it and I got other shit to do

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stage-set · 25 days ago

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my first lore dump about jeandre is going to be about how they UHHH. are, in fact, a masochist... and i mean this in just the personality sector today (though a detailed discussion that may or may not be usfw may bs introduced about their character later, BUT anyways). + when i say this, i mean that because jeandre had an emotionally unavailable / abusive mother who would only respond to him with positive attention whenever he suffered in some way growing up (an example of this being whenever they excelled in school at the cost of their mental health due to only focusing solely on school work to essentially 'nail' the material anddd being physically hurt), this led to them unfortunately coming to believe that suffering and/or self-sacrifice is the only way to be worthy of love or attention.

and as you can imagine... this form of thinking is damaging for MANY reasons, but the most pertinent to this lore-dump i'm giving to you all today is that even in things like friendships, jeandre will constantly be sacrificing their own comfort for the other person and continuing to try to maintain bonds with other's through pain / making someone care through hurting oneself. this is because jeandre has a pretty big fear of being abandoned by people he cares about if he somehow doesn't 'suffer' for them. and yes, this also shows through in romantic relationships, but in those... this belief system they have proves to be even more problematic. it does tend to subconsciously attract jeandre to people who are emotionally abusive and... well, that will take advantage of someone who is willing to basically throw out everything they want to accomplish in favor of pleasing them.

and this isn't jeandre's fault, of course, because unfortunately — children are very vulnerable, especially in the years that are formative to them in regard to personality development. his mother was not a good person + yes, although she had her own mental struggles, you all already know that i will never try to excuse someone's abusive behavior BC of that. i'm of the belief that you have to take responsibility for your actions at the end of the day, after all, no matter what you're going through. though it might serve as an explanation behind her unwillingness to try to connect with her kids on an emotional level because i believe that it's quite possible she had some form of NPD (narcisstic personality disorder). but to further explain what i mean by jeandre is a masochist, giving 'meaning' to pain in his case and/or perhaps even pleasure allowed him to defend himself from it in a way.

because if they re-enacted the sadism that they experienced from their caregiver as a child (e.g. their mother, in this case) by turning it on themselves, jeandre would be able to avoid feeling the past experience as present and unresolvable. and because there were a plethora of instances where showing feelings of anger / sadness were often discouraged or sometimes even punished by chezelle, as one might unfortunately expect — he has a great threshold for disscomfort as messed up as that sounds because he was taught that he was 'bad' as a child whenever he expressed these emotions. but in times where they're overwhelmed, anger or rage will often show through, and it initiates this cycle of self-defeating behavior in jeandre. thus, to outsiders, it may seem like he's very patient. but they are kind of always in a limbo state of repressing their emotions until they just kind of... blow over and jeandre also learned to lie quite often to defend himself from his childhood.

thus, chances are that if you ask them whether they're okay, they will give the person in question an affirmative answer BC what was important to him growing up was not 'making a ruckus' by showing any 'bad' emotions around his mother. and so jeandre looks for new ways to suppress his emotions but also harm him quite frequently, like through drugs and physically hurting themselves. because that will not only maybe garner sympathy and love from others in their book, but it helps support this narrative in their head that they are 'bad.' because having to face the reality that their mother / the world was the one who was bad as a child... OOF. it is not necessarily something that jeandre is ready for.

#I DISSOLVE INTO MY OTHER SELVES: musings.#DO I NOT LIVE? BADLY I KNOW BUT I LIVE: jeandre.#THE WOUNDED RECOGNIZE THE WOUNDED: character study.#ooc post.#tw: drugs #tw: emotional abuse #tw: child abuse #i could also probably talk for hoursss about how-#jeandre's autophagia which actually caused him to like almost completely mutilate his fingers at one point by biting on them/consuming-#parts of them plays into this as well as his skin-picking disorder but i shall save that for another time BC this lore dump is already long #enough already IMO. but yeahhh. long story short Chezelle was not a good parent at all though i'm sure you all already know that #because she was constantly putting both ruhan and jeandre themselves down whenever they showed any negative emotions #+ that teaches kids more than anything else to suppress them and to basically try to 'keep the peace' by pleasing their parent-#above everything else ): anddd also the whole point about him only receiving positive attention from his mother when physically hurt-#or like he did something that required a lot of sacrifice / was at his own detriment is really sad to me AHHH but this is what jeandre is-#like in the present because they never really got the help they needed to change their mindset that no they are in fact NOT bad-#and they don't need to suffer to gain other people's love

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restinpeacesensei · 1 month ago

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in my heart i do want to leave the long post up, bc it represents my memories. it makes me happy to see them together.

at the same time i don't want the pics to be side-by-side to be compared with each other and i know i can't have it both ways... i know how to curate a presentation and i know how art directors, judges/mods etc will look at it. placing a group of pictures together can unify them, but also highlight the differences between them.

i don't think of the later pictures as being "better" and the earlier ones as being "worse", they're all expressions of my heart, in the form that it took. i am aware that the later ones are more complex in composition, setting, color, detail, etc. ...there are things i would do differently about the earlier ones if i were making them now. but they also aren't aiming to accomplish the same things as the later ones. i feel like they express the feeling that i meant to express.

ive always had a variety of styles, which i play fast and loose with bc expressing myself is what's most important to me. sometimes my heart expresses itself one way, sometimes another. the pictures aren't meant to be compared to each other; they're each meant to serve their own purpose within their context.

the overall effect of an image can really differ depending on what i put it next to. i can grab older pictures and put them next to newer ones to give a variety of impressions of the direction my art has gone:

2015 < > 2024

2015 < > 2018 (please don't make comments like "hot", "sexy" etc.--thank you!!)

2015 < > 2023

2015 < > 2025

this fandom was freeing to me bc it felt like i could just make whatever i wanted. i felt like it didn't matter how it came out, i wasn't trying to win any awards, i could just draw and post anything i felt like. this was one of the main reasons i was able to produce so much work back then. it was pure self-expression. because i loved akoya and i couldn't hold it back. it came out, however it came out, and i had to share it.

and i found and felt love through those works. bc however it came out, people recognized and responded to the feelings in them. and im so grateful for that.

the moment i start to feel like people are looking to me to provide "good" content or to compare it and pick what's "better", if i start to feel like people expect me to make more and more finished and polished work or prefer it when i do, it starts to lose its purpose for me. because that was never my reason for making it. it was always a way for me to exist in the world, for my heart to be seen and heard.

i will never make every picture fully rendered, even if it could make me more popular, because some pictures aren't meant to look that way. sometimes they're just meant to exist, in whatever form they take. sometimes they're just meant to look very small like this and that is exactly how they're supposed to be

im grateful to everyone who has loved my akoyas all these years, in all the forms they take. \T/////T/ thank you so much!! \;;~~~;;/

#my text #long post #i ultimately do want to leave the long post up #but im also aware that presenting them together makes it harder for them to shine individually #it would break my heart to take it down but it also kind of breaks my heart to leave it up knowing that #but i think ultimately taking it down would feel worse. i planned it for years and its meant to honor akoya and all the time ive spent here #and i don't want to take that away. i would never be ashamed of akoya #besides if i don't put the pics together; they just won't be looked at at all #people could still go back and find flaws in them by themselves but being part of a group does give them interest as well #i posted how i felt in public bc i wanted to be talked out of deleting it. and im glad that i was ;;#i wrote this for myself to process how i felt about it and im not sure i need to put it up now #the post is already old now and none of this really matters anymore so i might just be bringing it up again if i post it #but i really spent a lot of time writing it so ... i will say it. i will express myself #it's not really necessary to reply though. i made my peace with it so it might be better to let the topic rest #oh also apparently it was a trick of tumblr that made me think i lost 80 followers after posting it bc the number went back #idk how that happened but im a bit relieved bc i did think it was weird LOL;;; ive made long posts before and not lost so many

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