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Ok, so can we talk about Punz for a second? Because like when I rewatched that stream the other day, not only did I notice that it was Punz who avenged Dream by killing Tommy and returning all of his stuff, after Sapnap and Tommy had ambushed Dream and refused to return it [details] (making him truly the mvp, who really doesn’t get enough credit). But I also noticed some other fun things.

Specially this.

And this.

Tommy punches Dream -> immediately killed by Punz [clip].

Like okay maybe we could make the point that Dream pays him to kill Tommy and reclaim all of his stuff [clip], but pretty sure Dream isn’t paying him to be so protective.

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Anyone else have days when like you just can’t read things properly?…

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Thought in light of my playlist with all of the Tommy lore, (btw if I missed anything let me know and I’ll try to find and add it) I’d also share all the playlists I have saved that could be useful to people watching lore or making their own playlists. There are also some other ones on my channel that you can check out if you want to, some of which I’m still working on (marked *). I have also posted lore resources before [here] and [here], which mention people like @spit-bite-glitch and @Wishdreamerx on youtube who have playlists by month.

{Also, I am trying to put together a dream playlist, which since he mostly doesn't have his own pov and sticks his head into everything, is quite a challenge, so if you are currently going through lore or something and come across the green boy it would be a big help if you would let me know, no need to provide time stamps or anything just a link, or even like just informing me of maybe some smaller lore you know he shows up in. I'd really appreciate it<3}

Timeline Playlist Links:

<> - <> - <> - <> - <> - <>

Anyways, this one is probably one of if not the best playlists I found. It does a pretty thorough job and includes lots of povs, it is understandably missing a few small things, but it’s really good and can definitely help you get a good view of the timeline too:

Characters:

Awesamdude - <> - <>

Sam Bucket*

Badboyhalo - <>

Dream*

DreamXD*

Eret

Eryn

Foolish - <>

Fundy

George

Michaelmicchill - <>

Niki

Philza

Ponk

Puffy

Punz* - <> - <>

Purpled

Quackity

Ranboo - <> - <>

Sapnap

Seapeekay

Skeppy - <>

Techno

Tommy

Tubbo - <> - <> - <> - <>

Wilbur - <> - <>

Arcs:

Disc Saga

War for Independance

Exile

Egg - <> - <>

Las Nevadas - <>

Prison Arc - <>

Post-Prison Arc

Daedalus * - <>

Finales*

And just for fun, while I'm at it, here are some other lore resources for you:

Transcripts Archive

Exile Transcripts

Exile & Prison Visitors

DSMP Members' Ages

DSMP Map Coordinate Archive

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new chapter? over a year later?... that's right bb :]

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About that dialogue with c!Prime in the prison, its hard for me to tell if c!Dream is being genuine about changing or if he is manipulating, I'm torn. Like, was his apology to c!Tommy in the prison real? I doubt it.

How do you know when c!Dream is being genuine or not?

-date: July 16, 2024-

So clearly I’ve had this question for awhile and one of the reasons is because it’s hard to answer. The other reasons include, around the same time I had written this I was looking at Dream’s bouncing around and was considering whether that gave an inclination to when he is and isn’t telling the truth, which would be relevant to this post. Unfortunately, I’m still undecided there. The other thing, is that around this time, although I didn’t post it till August, I had noticed the map definitely placing staged duo’s experiments after prison [post] which really started to change my perspective of how I see Dream and question what is truth and what isn’t… reguardless I wrote most of this back in July and I think even though some of my opinions have changed since then, this methodology still applies.

The fact is, that is a hard question, one I don’t think anyone seems to have a definitive answer on, after all I’ve talked about this before but since there are lots of behind the scenes and lore we didn’t get to see it is hard to decide whether or not it is true. Though that’s typically with like his claims I guess. He always tends to weave truth into his manipulation and lies which also can make things harder to decipher. But in some ways we don’t always know? I’m not sure we have enough evidence to support one way or another for sure, because the most we see of Dream is actually talking to his enemies so if our assumptions are based on that then it’s already going to be kinda flawed isn’t it? But that doesn’t mean you can’t tell when someone’s lying, there are tells and reasonings, obviously it’s easier in person to read physical tells and in general if you know that person well.

In general though, here are some things to look out for:

1) What is the context? Where is he? What is happening? What just happened? What is going to happen later?

2) Who is he talking to? What side are they on? How do they feel towards Dream? What motives do they have?

3) Does it align with his actions? Is it consistent with what he’s said before? Does it make sense? Is it a reasonable conclusion to make based on the facts we know for sure?

4) Did his voice change? What does his body language tell you (aka movements or positions or items he’s holding)?

5) Is it something he’s said before? Does what he say change - like if you lie sometimes it’s hard to keep your story straight?

6) What is his larger motivation? Does he have an objective? What does he hope to gain? How would someone possibly go about that? How would lying or telling the truth change the outcome or help him achieve his goal? As in, is it productive to achieving what he wants? Is it productive in achieving what he says he wants?

7) Is it logical? Is it intelligent? Is it counterproductive or dumb?

8) What could he be feeling? What emotions could he have based on the situation or person?

9) What mask is he wearing? Is he wearing a persona? Is he playing a part that’s advantageous for him?

10) Did he answer already? Did they reject or not listen to what he said? Did he change his answer?

Again it’s kinda hard, but at the same time, Dream tells the truth a lot. He is very honest unless he feels it’s necessary to lie. He’s not the type of person to just make something up or lie about a story for no reason. Nor to make up lies about another person. He seems to me like he doesn’t enjoy lying, I think he actually wants to tell the truth - he does tell the truth, but when that isn’t accepted he turns to lies instead. Especially at the beginning, but even past that. For example, when he tells Pogtopia that he’s changed sides because of something Schlatt has given him, Tommy asks “Why” and he answers because “I’m a business man” in other words, it wasn’t personal it was about something beyond the politics and sides. But Tommy doesn’t accept this answer again asking why so Dream responds with “I was never on your team” [clip]. This is not the first time he does this type of swapping answers to one they’ll accept. His stated goal for a big happy family and peace is not unique to one instance. In Doomsday in the same conversation he’s talking about how he and Tommy’s story will never be over and how he’s having fun, Tommy asks “Why?” And Dream answers “The server will be at peace now.” [clip] but Tommy doesn’t accept that answer instead asking again why Dream couldn’t have just punished him with the discs, to which Dream responds “This is much more fun.” [clip] He changes his answer, because Tommy didn’t accept his first one. Tommy wasn’t going to accept any answer other than the one that fit the narrative in his head, so Dream gives him just that - okay you didn’t want the real answer? Fine here’s what you will believe - which also helps set up his next objective: the staged finale. And this is not the first time nor the last time he talks about peace and a happy family. That thread he sticks too, from the very beginning to the very end, which means part of our dissection should be whether it makes sense knowing that motivation? Even in the finale, Tommy asks “Why?” trying to stall for time and Dream once again repeats the same things he’s said before, but it’s not until Tommy dies, and lives as Dream that he actually accepts the answers and asks for more. So, one thing to look for is whether he answers and nobody acknowledges it so he then changes his answer.

Another interesting thing is his voice, it changes. The most obvious being the “maybe I’ll kill you again and revive you and kill you again and revive you and kill you again…” [clip] scene where he sounds so unhinged even Tommy calls it out, “Stop speaking like that.” If you listen to his tone of voice when he’s very clearly being a villain, for example standing near the Skeppy Cage while talking about the prison and the “One of you’s gonna die, one of you’s gonna live and the thing is—it’s your choice,” [clip] you can hear the depth of his voice is different, his speaking is also a lot smoother when he’s playing the villain (specifically when he’s on the offensive not the defensive), which I assume might be because he has to think a little bit more about what he wants to say or even planned it out ahead of time. Being very methodical and strategic with his words to make sure they fit his persona. If his voice raises in emotion like the Spirit speech or after the jailbreak his “Let’s go to the beach—Let’s have a party! Maybe I can enjoy the beach for once in my life…” [clip], especially if he uses a cuss word like “fuck” his emotions are leaking through like: “give me my fucking armor!” [clip] and “I don’t give a fuck about Spirit!” and based on context it tends to be obvious whether it’s more so lies or truth, but even if it is truth, his following statements might be lies to cover up his emotional vulnerability. So for the Spirit Speech, one second he’s willing to do anything for Spirit and the next after taking enough humiliation he changes. Again here’s him changing his answer, and based on his next action of dethroning George to protect him, and the context of the situation with the blackmail we know he’s spitting BS. And if you don’t believe me, then I’d say it’s pretty confirmed later when Dream goes to get his armor after jailbreak and asks for his armor back because it’s “sentimental”. If we look at the other mentioned scene, we can again look at context - he was tortured, Tommy did put him in prison (even if part of his plan), and he’s justifiably enraged by what happened so his emotion there is true and raw and his words match up with the context. But then as Tommy insists still that he’s meant to be in prison despite what happened, Dream changes his voice, going lower and more unhinged as he threatens to make everyday a living hell for Tommy. Plus contextually, Dream is more geared than Tommy so if he intended to go through with his threat Tommy would be dead. He even highlights this as he remarks about how he’s not trying and just toying with Tommy “I could have killed you already if I really wanted to.” Just like if he really intended to kill Tubbo, he’d be dead, something he points out to Sam in Daedalus, which is fairly obvious when watching that stream anyways because Dream stalls for awhile with his monologue then giving them ample time to say goodbye. There’s no reason he should wait or stall except that he doesn’t plan on going through with it. After all, Dream is a man of action if he says he’s going to blow your nation down to bedrock he’s not gonna give you days to prepare, he’s gonna do it tomorrow.

I’ve also noticed that when he is full on playing the villain his words are so creepy and ominous and smooth - “In the end chaos wins.” [clip], but when he agrues that can be a good sign that he’s being more truthful, since after all he’s trying to be their fantasy, so if he’s arguing against them he’s frustrated enough to break the illusion. “Evil is in the eye of the beholder. You’re evil to me” [clip]. Context is key and if it sounds like something a marvel or cartoon villain would say or does, or if it sounds insanely evil and moralless, then it’s probably not fully honest.

There are also times where he is being honest even if not the context everyone else assumes. For example in Daedalus talking about betrayal. Sam thinks he’s talking about Punz, but we know Punz is his friend and ally, so we can deduce based on who he’s talking to that he’s actually referring to Sam and his betrayal as the Warden abusing his power over Dream. There is also this scene in the flooded community house, “I trusted you for once—Ever!”[clip] where I personally feel like his emotion is pretty raw and while everyone else thinks it’s because of the house being blow up, but I actually think it might be because he knew they were planning to kill him at the Green Festival, where he said he would actually honor their rules for once.

One of instances I think is the most telling is Dream’s meeting with Sapnap [vod], where you can hear the switch of his voice from the line “what have you been up to, Sapnap?” Because he pleads with Sapnap to give him the armor, talking about how they can start over and answering Sapnap’s questions. Hell he even offers to give up his current armor for his set, but Sapnap stays firm saying that he’ll have to take it off him and Dream says “it doesn’t have to be like this” before he switches to finding out about what Sapnap cares about and threatening it in a completely different tone of voice.

As far as your specific example with Dream in prison, here we can notice a few things. The first is the context, Tommy just said how he’s not going to leave and stuff even though Dream says he can be better. So, Dream goes further and offers an apology to prove his words, but notice his voice change there. Does that mean he’s not sorry at all? Hard to say, we can’t exactly know what’s in his heart, but in this instance he’s not being entirely truthful and genuine either. We can also look at motivation too, if his motivation is to be let out like I think [post] then it makes sense for him to double down and try to convince Tommy that he can change. Some of the other things he says we can know are true or not based on fact - of course he’d be sad he lost all of his lives and friends (notice how that contradicts his speech in the staged finale “I had to lose everything to gain everything”) he’s only human and we know he misses his friends if nothing else since he practically begged for them to stay. And notice how Tommy calls him out on whether he misses George and he doesn’t answer instead pushing Tommy to leave…

And yet, I think what it mostly comes down to is that if we can view things under the lens of Dream being an emotional and flawed human being and consider the motivation he’s stated all along founded by the truth of “I just don’t want to ever be alone” then a lot of times the truth can be clear…

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It’s honestly really nice seeing people talk about c!Tommy that aren’t just Inniters or believe he’s never done anything wrong. However, if you ever wanted to send any c!Tommy related questions my way, I’m one of a few who doesn’t baby him so… heartless self promo /j. Love reading your essays <3

-date: December 23, 2024-

I think some would disagree with you lol, as I don’t think I’m very liked in the inniter community. Which is sad to me to be honest, because I feel like my opinion changes all the time and I may say one thing now and a contradicting thing in a month. And I think in general it’s sad that people would block others just because they disagree or saw one take or post they dislike. One because I think surrounding yourself with the same opinions is a great way to end up in an echo chamber, and isn’t there a scroll by button lol like I certainly don’t agree or love everything some people post especially as shipping personally isn’t really my thing, but I just scroll by. Plus, I mean I feel like I do try and be fair. I feel like for everytime I may bash Tommy, I say something positive about him. And he’s hardly the only character I’ve bashed to be fair. I mean from a writer standpoint his character arc is rather interesting and the way it entangles with Dream’s is noteworthy, which is why I end up inevitably talking about him a lot

I think what’s interesting is that often I think my problem isn’t struggling to understand Tommy as much as innitors. I think at the end of the day, I want to read someone’s analysis or points and try to understand them because I think people do have different ways of seeing things and that’s interesting. But so often I get caught up in lore inaccuracy and such that I can’t even get to the take or analysis. And I don’t know, I haven’t been apart of other fandoms, but I feel like Batman and Joker fans aren’t nearly as toxic to each other as c!Tommy fans and c!Dream fans. And it’s something I find kinda fascinating and sad, a mystery I feel like I try to solve, like why is that divide so strong. How can a fandom all love something so strongly and yet treat fellow fans of different characters with such vitriol. I think it’s why I’ve written essays on bias, it’s why I’ve written essays on correcting common lore misconceptions, it’s probably why I’ve even recently put together a whole extensive Tommy dsmp lore YouTube playlist [here], it’s why I did my polls a while back, because I was curious if there was something about family dynamics or neurodivergence that played a piece into this divide. And part of that mystery started for me back when we got the finale because like hating a bad ending is fine, Game of Thrones is a great example, I think Supernatural’s ending is maybe the worst ending ever, but I thought the finale of disc duo was good so why do so many people hate it, not even just the fandom as a whole but mostly fans of specific character(s). Even when unlike Game of Thrones and Supernatural, the actors of the characters actually wrote the ending…. anyways oops, sorry I ramble.

Thanks for reading my essays and glad you enjoy them <3 <3 and thanks for opening up the conversation and being inviting :)

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-date: November 1, 2024- @cryptidflow3r

That’s very sad. But yeah I could maybe see as they both become lonely and lose all anger they reach the understanding they had in the finale that they both wanted the same thing in the end…

However, I think it’s important to note that for Dream it was never about land but the people. I think it’s why he has little qualms about blowing things up. It’s not about the structure itself but the people who live there and such. So unless Dream had a admin reason to stay I don’t think he would, not for Tommy either. Remember his motivation is “I just don’t want to ever be alone” it was never about nations he just wanted to be loved and wanted people to be peaceful and together. The pets and houses didn’t matter, but it causing divide did. It was never about Dream being upset about a piece of land, everyone is free to build wherever, it was the banning of people to enter their land and claiming it as their server that made Dream declare war on L’manberg. It’s the fact they wanted Independence, because they already had freedom…. So if people left I think he would leave to. Assuming anyone would want him… I suppose in a very depressing ending no one would allow him to join them and so that’s how he ends up alone in the server…. anyways

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5 fanfics huh?… lol *checks my notes* let’s see I’ve got 2 in posting progress fics, 2 I’m sorta working on, 3 different different digital artworks, oh and who can forget the like 40 something Tumblr drafts lol... I’m a crazy person… like what’s worse is for my fics I’m working on multiple chapters of the same work at the same time XD… anyways

Yeah I mean I didn’t watch SMP Earth so it’s not a big point for me, more so their dynamic preexisting. (Though I did read an excellent essay once that went into detail about why it made sense for SMP Earth to be canon.)

True, I was more so imagining the Butcher Army more so coming when Tommy wasn’t around, but I do think if he had been he would have got involved in someway. Whether that being trying to reason with L’manberg that Techno has retired and helped him fight or whatever. Either way though, I do think he might not have made much of a difference and the execution still would have happened. Though, Tommy siding with Techno would certainly further divide him and Tubbo, who had been murdered by Techno. Actually… I feel like in a world where Tommy had been living and sided with Techno prior to that even without family bonds, Tommy still would have stepped in.

Was c!Wilbur written with the intention of sbi family being canon? Because I could be wrong, but I didn’t think he mentioned he and c!Tommy being brothers prior to c!Techno and c!Phil arriving. Which is odd since he’s very vocal in the early days about Fundy being his kid… so just think whatever comment cc!Wilbur made must have been pandering to fans or something because I didn’t get that impression at all lol… I mean and c!Techno wasn’t the only one who retconned it, because c!Tommy even said in a clip I recently found that he has not family [post].

Plus one thing I’ve never understood is how Techno is canonically immortal and Wilbur, and Tommy aren’t? That doesn’t make sense. Plus even if Techno was Phil’s favorite, the bound they have still isn’t one of parental but of equals. Me and my mom are very close and best friends in many ways, but it’s still not that same as an actual best friend. Plus maybe this is applying too much of my own family experience, but I’ve noticed in general what we perceive as favorite is sometimes just who puts in the most effort for that relationship with their parent. Additionally, I would think, as happened in my family when we all perceived my oldest sibling m as being the favorite, the rest of us were resentful toward them (in some ways even now there is lingering divide). So if Wilbur is cold toward Techno because he’s Phil’s favorite then, why isn’t Tommy? Wouldn’t Tommy follow in Wilbur’s footsteps?

Honestly, I don’t even remember the pit being that bad, like it wasn’t even a canon death… maybe I just need to rewatch it. Eh…

As far as Exile, if Tommy is living with Techno from the start, why would Dream be around? Like he certainly ain’t going to go against Tommy while he’s under Techno’s protection, so I just feel like he’d leave them alone. He’s got other things to do. It’s one thing to keep Tommy company and from scheming but he wouldn’t need to do that in this scenario… as far as his participation is Doomsday, if he defended L’manberg in anyway I think Techno would probably still see it as a betrayal and so the dynamic people show of Techno and Tommy later would still be inaccurate. At that point, Techno would not be very close to Tommy anymore. Maybe even only allow him around for Phil…

Though it’s just occurred to me, sure Quackity was always gunning for Dream and Techno from the start of New L’manberg but would he be able to convince Tubbo to go along if Exile did not happen… if Tubbo never found a tower and instead just grew a closer relationship with Dream, would he have planned to backstab him and if not, then maybe Dream wouldn’t have put himself in the prison after all. Because people wouldn’t be turning on him as much at least not really Tommy and not really L’manberg… interesting…

But let’s say he does still stage things to be put in prison, would it still look the same. I mean sure Quackity is still well Quackity… he was very willing to torture Dream even before the book, I mean look no further than the conversation he has with Bad [post], this is way before things went down later and he doesn’t even mention the book. Quackity was always willing to torture Dream I don’t think even Dream questioned that. It’s Sam who Dream depended on to keep him safe from being hurt by people like Quackity. That is the big betrayal and the big factor here. And the question isn’t would Quackity go through with torture without the reason of Tommy’s death to justify himself, it’s would Sam have been able to both be manipulated by Quackity so easily and would he have enough moral justification in his mind to allow that to happen if both Exile and Tommy’s death did not happen… and it’s hard to say. There is an argument to be made about the names of Sam’s weapons and the shears. And there is a point to be made that both the book and Quackity paying Sam would still exist. But would that be enough? Sam thought he was doing the right thing, would he still feel that way if Dream had done less wrong things? Would Dream have earned enough of reputation as a human being to be treated as such. If even Tommy seemed to feel bad for Dream, would that change how Sam felt? Sure maybe he would still try and make Dream behave and maybe he’d still starve and punch Dream for disobeying, but would he allow Quackity….I don’t know. Quackity would certainly have a lot harder time manipulating him at the very least…

A funny, and kind of annoying, thing I've come to realise that the SBI family dynamic truthers really don't understand why the SBI family dynamic wasn't made canon in the DSMP. Cause from what I remember it was mainly because it didn't make sense for Techno's character, specifically because of his dynamic with Tommy.

Cause yeah, if Techno and Tommy were brothers, half the shit in Pogtopia would have happened very differently. Hell, Tommy's exile would have happened a lot differently. First thing is Tommy would have stepped in during the festival cause he would have known Techno doesn't do well with peer-pressure (likely only being stopped by Wilbur holding him back), and even if he for some reason didn't try and stop Tubbo's execution the pit fight wouldn't have happened cause Techno wouldn't want to beat the shit out of his little brother. The Withers likely still would have happened along with the Theseus speech but it likely would have been less of a threat and more of a warning.

Then comes exile where Techno would still laugh an "I told you so" at him while dragging Tommy's dumbass back to his cabin. Which wouldn't have prevented Dream from visiting but would have prevented the TNT stuff because Dream's whole manipulation plan was based around Wilbur's way of controlling Tommy in Pogtopia (which I could go on an entirely separate rant about but I don't want to make this ask too long). Which Techno doesn't even think about. There's also the fact that in this hypothetical, Tommy would now be staying and listening to the brother that doesn't hate Dream's guts and isn't gunning for power.

Honestly I could be wrong and incredibly biased about this but I am so tired of the "c!Techno and c!Phil are neglectful family members" trope, cause while it could make sense for Phil's character, it doesn't for Techno. Not with how dedicated he is with the people he cares about.

Do I think that Tommy would go as far as to help with Doomsday in this AU/hypocritical? Maybe, considering Tommy would be there when the Butcher Army shows up or if Techno changes his pitch from "Tubbo betrayed you" to "L'Manburg is driving you and Tubbo apart".

Honestly I've just been reading way too many fics where SBI is canon and Techno is way too ready to kill Dream as though Techno wouldn't have dragged Tommy to the cabin the first night of exile if it was his brother, and not some random kid he met during a revolution that was the surrogate brother of his bestfriends son.

At most there would have been one instance of Dream blowing Tommy's things up that first night and that would be it.

Sorry for the long rant, this could have been its own post on my page but I thought you would have an interesting take on this kind of topic considering your a lot more knowledgeable on Dream's character then I am.

-date Nov 13, 2024-

Well I mean the biggest argument for sbi not being canon is all of the ccs said so lol. But as you point out it also just doesn’t make sense canonically speaking either. Now we could say that siblings at differently toward each other and in other stories we certainly see that difference in closeness. There is also age gap to consider, all of my siblings and I are 2-3 years apart, which is pretty close, but the further the gap is the more that sibling dynamic changes and can even become more parental. Also, siblings tend to have more conflict during young adult years as they all try and figure themselves out, becoming more independent and setting boundaries and such. Sibling dynamics just tend to be different and it does depend on childhood and parenting, and personality. Especially I think (as a middle of 4) the bigger the family the more drama and conflict there is. So there is technically a world in which sbi exist and the canonical dynamic between Techno and Tommy.

However, you are also right, that that dynamic would stay consistent and yet many fanfic writers tend to have their dynamics and behavior change, where Techno becomes more protective and close to Tommy. In other words, you could have the same dynamic and sbi, but it shouldn’t change. And in that sense, after spending months locked up with Dream and after Tommy siding with the country who tried to kill him and unable during Doomsday to see the problems with that, I don’t personally think Techno would choose Tommy over Dream. Dream saved his life, what has Tommy ever done for Techno? Sure Phil, but Phil doesn’t have much of a relationship with Dream, so that’s different.

Anyways, I’m not so sure Tommy would have stepped in. Because I think he trusted Techno and his strength to be able to handle it and being his sibling wouldn’t change that. Afterwards, I think perhaps he would be more understanding of Techno’s reasoning and maybe even forgive him. As far as the lot goes, I think it’s still could have been a thing. For starters, because the violence scale on the dsmp is scuffed and like people be pushing each other off roofs and stabbing for fun. So, I could totally see it be more like a roughhouse time or whatever, I mean in my experience brothers in general tend to fight, even if it’s a little sibling.

Yeah I mean his line ‘You want to be the hero, Tommy? Then die like one!” Might not have happened, especially since that happens before the bigger betrayal. I think him calling Tommy Theseus was kind of a warning anyways, but that’s besides the point.

I do think I agree, that on the first day, when Techno comes to visit Tommy he would have dragged him to the cabin. Leaving Dream to search for him and perhaps eventually end up at Techno’s. Perhaps since that scenario Techno would be more involved and it’s less Tommy snuck into your basement, Techno would strike a deal with Dream that he’ll keep an eye on Tommy and keep him away from the main server area. This goes well until the Butcher Army happens causing Techno to go after L’manberg. Given that Tubbo is still Tommy’s ex-friend, and without Exile he didn’t spend as much time alone thinking about how all of his friends don’t visit him and stuff, I think perhaps he would be more resistant to destroying L’manberg… whether Techno could influence Tommy enough to make main more neutral to Dream and more anti-government, I think is hard to say. Tommy has hated Dream and seen him as a bad guy, who even got him exiled and Wilbur certainly sank his claws of propaganda into him. However, Wilbur’s death and betrayal certainly takes away some of his influence. Techno is good at pointing out the reasoning and obvious - You blackmailed Dream and expected it to go well? Bruhhh…- maybe Tommy would listen or maybe not I could see both ways. He is stubborn, but also Techno’s influence, the lack of Wilbur’s influence, and the lack of Dream’s exile manipulation (not sure what you mean by being based on Wilbur, you should write an essay about it) could be enough to turn Tommy’s alliance a bit. Not sure it’d be enough to make him participate in Doomsday though, I think Techno would keep his point that ‘Tubbo betrayed you’ and that ‘the government divided you,’ which without Dream around would be alot easier to convince Tommy of.

Yea it is sad to see them portray Techno that way, especially as you said, we see Techno more so reflect how much he cares for all of his loved ones and animals. I mean Phil is canonically neglectful to Wilbur, unless we use some kind of reasoning of why he could come to the server before, but even his behavior when Will is revived isn’t great. But Techno is hardly neglectful.

I don’t think Tommy is some random kid. I always got the impression they were friends previous like from smp earth and that Wilbur was more so the stronger. Especially as there is that conversation (I think with L’mandog) where Wilbur says ‘I just don’t know you that well yet.’ So Tommy and Techno were always a friend-ish relationship. Unlike Tubbo though, Techno didn’t just follow Tommy, he stood up for his principles and goals even when Tommy opposed them.

lol, hopefully I addressed all of your point, I don’t even think I talked about Dream much lol. I’m trying to imagine how thing would be different for him if Exile didn’t happen and honestly I think it’d change a lot. Though L’manberg would still be plotting against Dream so Doomsday would still happen. But would some of the other things? If there was a huge rift between Tommy and Tubbo and Tommy was behaving thanks to Techno would, then the disc finale might not have happened. Still, Dream is still scared of a big unkillable threat so a prison would still be built, and everyone still hates Dream so perhaps he’d still plan to put himself inside. But then you have the circumstances in prison, would they be as bad without Exile, would Tommy even bother to come visit him, would he still kill Tommy in prison, certainly not if Techno was still aligned with him. Maybe he’d instead try and manipulate Tommy into putting him and telling Techno he needs to get out or something…

I don’t know… it’s interesting to think about though…

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Last night I had the cutest dream involving c!Dream and c!Sapnap as kids. I don’t remember all the details, except something really bad happened that involved c!Dream making the wrong facial expression or not making one at all. And afterwards, c!Sapnap comes up to c!Dream who’s crying and gives him the mask so he doesn’t have to go through that pain again…

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About that dialogue with c!Prime in the prison, its hard for me to tell if c!Dream is being genuine about changing or if he is manipulating, I'm torn. Like, was his apology to c!Tommy in the prison real? I doubt it.

How do you know when c!Dream is being genuine or not?

-date: July 16, 2024-

So clearly I’ve had this question for awhile and one of the reasons is because it’s hard to answer. The other reasons include, around the same time I had written this I was looking at Dream’s bouncing around and was considering whether that gave an inclination to when he is and isn’t telling the truth, which would be relevant to this post. Unfortunately, I’m still undecided there. The other thing, is that around this time, although I didn’t post it till August, I had noticed the map definitely placing staged duo’s experiments after prison [post] which really started to change my perspective of how I see Dream and question what is truth and what isn’t… reguardless I wrote most of this back in July and I think even though some of my opinions have changed since then, this methodology still applies.

The fact is, that is a hard question, one I don’t think anyone seems to have a definitive answer on, after all I’ve talked about this before but since there are lots of behind the scenes and lore we didn’t get to see it is hard to decide whether or not it is true. Though that’s typically with like his claims I guess. He always tends to weave truth into his manipulation and lies which also can make things harder to decipher. But in some ways we don’t always know? I’m not sure we have enough evidence to support one way or another for sure, because the most we see of Dream is actually talking to his enemies so if our assumptions are based on that then it’s already going to be kinda flawed isn’t it? But that doesn’t mean you can’t tell when someone’s lying, there are tells and reasonings, obviously it’s easier in person to read physical tells and in general if you know that person well.

In general though, here are some things to look out for:

1) What is the context? Where is he? What is happening? What just happened? What is going to happen later?

2) Who is he talking to? What side are they on? How do they feel towards Dream? What motives do they have?

3) Does it align with his actions? Is it consistent with what he’s said before? Does it make sense? Is it a reasonable conclusion to make based on the facts we know for sure?

4) Did his voice change? What does his body language tell you (aka movements or positions or items he’s holding)?

5) Is it something he’s said before? Does what he say change - like if you lie sometimes it’s hard to keep your story straight?

6) What is his larger motivation? Does he have an objective? What does he hope to gain? How would someone possibly go about that? How would lying or telling the truth change the outcome or help him achieve his goal? As in, is it productive to achieving what he wants? Is it productive in achieving what he says he wants?

7) Is it logical? Is it intelligent? Is it counterproductive or dumb?

8) What could he be feeling? What emotions could he have based on the situation or person?

9) What mask is he wearing? Is he wearing a persona? Is he playing a part that’s advantageous for him?

10) Did he answer already? Did they reject or not listen to what he said? Did he change his answer?

Again it’s kinda hard, but at the same time, Dream tells the truth a lot. He is very honest unless he feels it’s necessary to lie. He’s not the type of person to just make something up or lie about a story for no reason. Nor to make up lies about another person. He seems to me like he doesn’t enjoy lying, I think he actually wants to tell the truth - he does tell the truth, but when that isn’t accepted he turns to lies instead. Especially at the beginning, but even past that. For example, when he tells Pogtopia that he’s changed sides because of something Schlatt has given him, Tommy asks “Why” and he answers because “I’m a business man” in other words, it wasn’t personal it was about something beyond the politics and sides. But Tommy doesn’t accept this answer again asking why so Dream responds with “I was never on your team” [clip]. This is not the first time he does this type of swapping answers to one they’ll accept. His stated goal for a big happy family and peace is not unique to one instance. In Doomsday in the same conversation he’s talking about how he and Tommy’s story will never be over and how he’s having fun, Tommy asks “Why?” And Dream answers “The server will be at peace now.” [clip] but Tommy doesn’t accept that answer instead asking again why Dream couldn’t have just punished him with the discs, to which Dream responds “This is much more fun.” [clip] He changes his answer, because Tommy didn’t accept his first one. Tommy wasn’t going to accept any answer other than the one that fit the narrative in his head, so Dream gives him just that - okay you didn’t want the real answer? Fine here’s what you will believe - which also helps set up his next objective: the staged finale. And this is not the first time nor the last time he talks about peace and a happy family. That thread he sticks too, from the very beginning to the very end, which means part of our dissection should be whether it makes sense knowing that motivation? Even in the finale, Tommy asks “Why?” trying to stall for time and Dream once again repeats the same things he’s said before, but it’s not until Tommy dies, and lives as Dream that he actually accepts the answers and asks for more. So, one thing to look for is whether he answers and nobody acknowledges it so he then changes his answer.

Another interesting thing is his voice, it changes. The most obvious being the “maybe I’ll kill you again and revive you and kill you again and revive you and kill you again…” [clip] scene where he sounds so unhinged even Tommy calls it out, “Stop speaking like that.” If you listen to his tone of voice when he’s very clearly being a villain, for example standing near the Skeppy Cage while talking about the prison and the “One of you’s gonna die, one of you’s gonna live and the thing is—it’s your choice,” [clip] you can hear the depth of his voice is different, his speaking is also a lot smoother when he’s playing the villain (specifically when he’s on the offensive not the defensive), which I assume might be because he has to think a little bit more about what he wants to say or even planned it out ahead of time. Being very methodical and strategic with his words to make sure they fit his persona. If his voice raises in emotion like the Spirit speech or after the jailbreak his “Let’s go to the beach—Let’s have a party! Maybe I can enjoy the beach for once in my life…” [clip], especially if he uses a cuss word like “fuck” his emotions are leaking through like: “give me my fucking armor!” [clip] and “I don’t give a fuck about Spirit!” and based on context it tends to be obvious whether it’s more so lies or truth, but even if it is truth, his following statements might be lies to cover up his emotional vulnerability. So for the Spirit Speech, one second he’s willing to do anything for Spirit and the next after taking enough humiliation he changes. Again here’s him changing his answer, and based on his next action of dethroning George to protect him, and the context of the situation with the blackmail we know he’s spitting BS. And if you don’t believe me, then I’d say it’s pretty confirmed later when Dream goes to get his armor after jailbreak and asks for his armor back because it’s “sentimental”. If we look at the other mentioned scene, we can again look at context - he was tortured, Tommy did put him in prison (even if part of his plan), and he’s justifiably enraged by what happened so his emotion there is true and raw and his words match up with the context. But then as Tommy insists still that he’s meant to be in prison despite what happened, Dream changes his voice, going lower and more unhinged as he threatens to make everyday a living hell for Tommy. Plus contextually, Dream is more geared than Tommy so if he intended to go through with his threat Tommy would be dead. He even highlights this as he remarks about how he’s not trying and just toying with Tommy “I could have killed you already if I really wanted to.” Just like if he really intended to kill Tubbo, he’d be dead, something he points out to Sam in Daedalus, which is fairly obvious when watching that stream anyways because Dream stalls for awhile with his monologue then giving them ample time to say goodbye. There’s no reason he should wait or stall except that he doesn’t plan on going through with it. After all, Dream is a man of action if he says he’s going to blow your nation down to bedrock he’s not gonna give you days to prepare, he’s gonna do it tomorrow.

I’ve also noticed that when he is full on playing the villain his words are so creepy and ominous and smooth - “In the end chaos wins.” [clip], but when he agrues that can be a good sign that he’s being more truthful, since after all he’s trying to be their fantasy, so if he’s arguing against them he’s frustrated enough to break the illusion. “Evil is in the eye of the beholder. You’re evil to me” [clip]. Context is key and if it sounds like something a marvel or cartoon villain would say or does, or if it sounds insanely evil and moralless, then it’s probably not fully honest.

There are also times where he is being honest even if not the context everyone else assumes. For example in Daedalus talking about betrayal. Sam thinks he’s talking about Punz, but we know Punz is his friend and ally, so we can deduce based on who he’s talking to that he’s actually referring to Sam and his betrayal as the Warden abusing his power over Dream. There is also this scene in the flooded community house, “I trusted you for once—Ever!”[clip] where I personally feel like his emotion is pretty raw and while everyone else thinks it’s because of the house being blow up, but I actually think it might be because he knew they were planning to kill him at the Green Festival, where he said he would actually honor their rules for once.

One of instances I think is the most telling is Dream’s meeting with Sapnap [vod], where you can hear the switch of his voice from the line “what have you been up to, Sapnap?” Because he pleads with Sapnap to give him the armor, talking about how they can start over and answering Sapnap’s questions. Hell he even offers to give up his current armor for his set, but Sapnap stays firm saying that he’ll have to take it off him and Dream says “it doesn’t have to be like this” before he switches to finding out about what Sapnap cares about and threatening it in a completely different tone of voice.

As far as your specific example with Dream in prison, here we can notice a few things. The first is the context, Tommy just said how he’s not going to leave and stuff even though Dream says he can be better. So, Dream goes further and offers an apology to prove his words, but notice his voice change there. Does that mean he’s not sorry at all? Hard to say, we can’t exactly know what’s in his heart, but in this instance he’s not being entirely truthful and genuine either. We can also look at motivation too, if his motivation is to be let out like I think [post] then it makes sense for him to double down and try to convince Tommy that he can change. Some of the other things he says we can know are true or not based on fact - of course he’d be sad he lost all of his lives and friends (notice how that contradicts his speech in the staged finale “I had to lose everything to gain everything”) he’s only human and we know he misses his friends if nothing else since he practically begged for them to stay. And notice how Tommy calls him out on whether he misses George and he doesn’t answer instead pushing Tommy to leave…

And yet, I think what it mostly comes down to is that if we can view things under the lens of Dream being an emotional and flawed human being and consider the motivation he’s stated all along founded by the truth of “I just don’t want to ever be alone” then a lot of times the truth can be clear…

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SIXTEENTH DAY EVENT - YOUR RECAP OF 2024!

Hi, bleue-flora! Thanks for participating in the Sixteenth Day Event this year.

In 2024, you took part in 6 monthly events, making you a top 6.1% most active participant!

YOUR EVENT PARTICIPATIONS

Personal Month

Angst Month

Duos Month

Pre-Canon Month

Limbo Month

Memory Month

YOUR TOP CHARACTERS

Dream

Punz

Quackity

Bad, Foolish, Sam, Sapnap

YOUR BONUS BADGES

Founder Badge - For participating in the first event

Busy Bee Badge - For creating multiple pieces for the same month’s event

Superfan Badge - For including the same character in at least 3 separate pieces

Variety Badge - For including at least 6 different characters across all your pieces

Thank you so much for contributing to our wonderful community, and good luck in all your future endeavors. Keep on creating!

Oops this got buried in my inbox and I meant to post it on the 16th but ah well… anyways. Wow 6/12 ain’t bad. I’m actually suprised it’s that many, though to be fair for the non ask prompt ones I kinda cheated a little bit… I mean to be fair the projects I was working on were related to the month prompts but still. Thanks @elmhat for putting in all the work for these events <3 <3, I had so much fun and it really pushed me to go a little outside my comfort zone like writing Foolish, and that everything doesn’t have to be edited to oblivion. Anyways it was really fun to curve my brain rot into something that fit the theme, whether it was Dream breaking the stained glass or Sam’s hoe and shovel lots of fun. :)

January — Punz helps Dream through a medical emergency

April— prison of the mind

May — Dream & Foolish - Gravel

June — growing up too fast

October — Broken House & The Past Repeated

November — Dream remembers Technoblade's bell & Punz remembers his home

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But then I feel like if Dream gets a lime green jumper, surely Techno needs a pink one right? lol

[context]

And now I can’t help but be thinking about Dream in a lime green prison jumpsuit lol…

really makes the blood stains stand out…

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[context]

And now I can’t help but be thinking about Dream in a lime green prison jumpsuit lol…

really makes the blood stains stand out…

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Hi hi i am curious abt how u imagen c!dream to look like? :3 cause tbh the eye nipples are not it

And does he look different any of your fics?

[context]

Hmm… good question. I actually was thinking about this back in September when thinking about what Dream’s ghost would look like, and came up with this idea that the cloak Dream wore more in the beginning of the server was his skin color and had cat ears just like the hats ccDream wears. I also was thinking about how I added parts of Punz’s skin onto Punz’s armor in my art like the black stripe [here], so what if Dream has something similar with the smily face. So last night I altered my art [original] to kinda demonstrate what I mean, it’s not like a final draft or anything, but just to get the idea.

But basically this is one way we could interpret Dream’s skin, where he could either be wearing white or have like white belts, has a smily face on his chest plate and a neon green cloak. So this is more or less what I imagine Dream looked like pre-prison, though slightly different like his hair would be short (and maybe instead of wearing his parrot’s feathers in his hair like shown he has an earring or something plus he also wears rings of course like ccDream), and his cloak and clothes wouldn’t be baggy and ragged like is shown - those were just already there originally. Though I think someone talked sometime about Dream’s clothes getting darker and darker as time went on and I love the symbolism of that so I do think his clothes were lighter greens and grays and the white (still the same cloak though), so this look of all black would be after the dethronement.

Dream in prison looks like… well something like how I did him for my Musical Chairs art [original]

with his hair getting that shaggy longer look and starting to grey at the roots. Technically he probably should look thinner (and canonically based on his skin he should have a mask… and maybe his jumper should be neon green) but… like I also picture him not unlike Oliver Queen from Arrow who is very fit, like if this were a movie or tv show, personally I want characters to be pretty, that’s part of the appeal :) so he will be scarred but not to the point of like gross to look at. He’d also be paler than the picture shown, which just has residual shading from the og, because man hasn’t seen the sun in a long while. And he does have a shirt on when people are around (besides Quackity of course :] lol)

And well like I said I did art for how I see post-prison Dream [here], though I think ever since I noticed the map which confirmed the timeline of staged duo’s experiments [post], I’ve started questioning how I see Dream and whether or not I think they did a lot of death experiments on each other [post], so I think the post-prison Dream I see now includes a lot less white streaks in his hair than my art. If he had long hair I also imagine he wore it in a braid a lot… though honestly in my head he often has short hair so maybe he only has long hair in Crow’s Nest and Niki teaches him to braid it…

But yeah in general, as far as how he looks for my fics… you’ll notice I don’t really describe that beside things like eye color and injuries because I want the reader to be able to imagine Dream with whatever headcanon they have (similarly to how I write the more intimate moments between staged duo in a way that if you ship them it still works). Perhaps that’s why you are asking lol… umm most of my fics are in a timeline of sorts and meant to fit into canon, of course in If The Crown Fits, Wear It Dream wears a crown post-prison. In Good Cop ‘Bad’ Cop I think Dream’s clothes and stuff would be a little less like ripped up and bloody since it wasn’t super obvious to Bad. Also since in lore he loses his armor when scrapped lore happens and when Tommy kills him, there would actually be three different looking sets for the post-prison Dream look. In the Haunted House Timeline, which sticks to canon up until the events of Crow’s Nest, Dream would look less ragged since he stayed at Techno’s for a while so he gained some weight back and looks more healthy overall… in general though they are look very similar because they are all canon compliant. :)

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new chapter? over a year later?... that's right bb :]

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new chapter? over a year later?... that's right bb :]

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#techno is just the only one to be like - hey put your clothes back on !#some do an au where Q Sam and Punz all have to pole dance for in like a competition for dreams affection

Now I'm imagining that in this situation, cdream would just be standing there like scoring their performances very seriosuly with a book and a pen or just standing there in silence. And cTechno in that moment enters the prison and is welcome by that scene happening and he'd just be like "bruhhh, wft is happening?!??!?"

wait oh my god, why are they doing the strip competition in the prison?! lol... imagine Dream just turns the prison into a strip club XD...

Or like Dream takes revenge on Sam and Quackity by forcing them to do full strip performances with the stipulation of whoever does the best gets to go free. Punz fully supports this at first, standing behind Dream watching him take notes, but he starts noticing Dream actually getting into it a little bit too much to the point he gets jealous and insists that he get a chance to show them up and do it properly... then Techno shows up (because they were supposed to have a meeting for the best way to blow up Las Nevadas) and just sees Punz working it and is flabberghasted "Heh?! Did I come too early?... Wow, Dream, and here I thought you were the only stripper who lived here." Or like Dream invited Techno to judge the competition to share the revenge and further the humiliation for Sam and Quackity, but Techno is just like "Bruuh, are you sure we can't just kill them both?"

Or like wait wait wait what if Dream hosts a dance competition for his affection and Quackity, Sam, Punz and who can forget Sapnap too all show up and put on a good pole dancing show, lap dance included of course. Wilbur shows up in full costume prepared to do a number from Hamilton, Fundy shows up ready for a tap dance performance and then Techno just shows up late after everyone else has gone, in a tux expecting like a ballroom dance competition. All the while, Dream really just meant a dance off lips sync style, but he plays along anyways. Even dancing a nice fancy waltz with Techno while everyone watches with envy, calling out that Techno bending him over for a kiss at the end is cheating. Then just as Dream is about to announce the winner, George, in typical George fashion, busts threw the doors, "Wait, did I miss it?!"