#i know the bear fandom ships carmy and syd romantically

[izzysarchivedblogs]

All I am saying is that Carmy and Syd from the Bear are Clint and Kate.

[undead-moth]

I think maybe some of the confusion, frustration, and disconnect happening in The Bear fandom over SydCarmy, from sydcarmy truthers, to SydCarmy and ex-SydCarmy shippers who don’t think it will ever be canon, and from people who are vehemently against SydCarmy and overtly annoyed anyone would ever suggest they’re romantic is this:

People are not distinguishing between in-universe and out-of-universe analysis. Or watsonian and doylist analysis respectively.

If you look within The Bear universe, if you analyze using a watsonian lens, there is very little indication that Syd and Carmy have romantic feelings for each other. At most, I would argue that there might be some indication that they’re in the very early stages of beginning to have feelings for each other, or have begun to have feelings for each other without realizing it - but it is also pretty easy to argue that they’re uninterested in each other completely if you look solely in-universe. A lot of the more meaningful moments between them, when looked at solely from an in-universe perspective, could easily be platonic as much as they could be romantic.

However, if you look outside The Bear universe, if you analyze using a doylist lens, if you pay attention to the writing decisions being made in relation to Syd and Carmy, the writing decisions which of course Syd and Carmy are oblivious to, because they do not know they are in a story and they do not know, for example, that love songs are being played over scenes with them in it, or that a heart-shaped food paired with the only fruit associated with blood is being used as a symbol and not one of life’s random coincidences, it becomes pretty obvious that Syd and Carmy are intended to be romantic and that they just haven’t reached the point in the story when that happens yet.

I’m not saying this to argue with anyone who doesn’t ship SydCarmy, or for that matter, to argue with anyone who does. People can ship or not ship whatever they want for whatever reason, regardless of whether or not the ship is or will be canon. I’m only saying this because I think the realization made something click for me. Before I was completely shocked anyone was under the impression SydCarmy wasn’t intended to be romantic, and now I think get it.

The in-universe and out-of-universe for this show are currently not on the same page when it comes to SydCarmy and even though The Bear is far from the first show to do this, I think people are thrown by The Bear more than they would be with another show because The Bear does not hold our hands the way most shows do and a lot of people who aren’t writers or literary/film critics are not used to purposefully distinguishing between watsonian and doylist analysis.

A lot of people only ever look in-universe when watching something, because that is, after all, where the story is and writing decisions are largely intended to be invisible, more felt than seen. The problem, of course, is that all writing decisions still largely contribute to the story being told, and not paying attention to them will only ever allow someone an incomplete analysis.

[beauspot]

The Bear Season 2: And Why I’m Fucking Annoyed (Full Spoilers below)

*Long Post*

The Bear is something truly special. When it dropped in June of last year it wasn’t a major hit right away. It was a sleeper and it grew its fanbase over time. If you were here this time last year you remember how small the fandom was posts on every platform could barely reach 200 interactions, but with the Golden Globe wins and the word of mouth this fandom began to grow and expand, because season one of the show was just so good.

Season 2 however is an interesting piece of media. I am well aware that I have some bias in this department and I can’t view this season objectively, but neither can the rest of you so I’ll say what I want.

To start off I really enjoyed some of the episodes this season, the first two? Excellent. The Marcus Episode(with my husband Will Poulter at his side)? Fantastic. The Richie Episode? Perfection. And let’s not even talk about Fishes, which was beyond words. I genuinely went into this season wanting to like it and praise it the way I did the previous season because I thought it was good. The writing—which is spectacular in nearly every other place—takes a nosedive with this romance plot. I still do think it’s good, but I can’t act like this whole season hasn’t left a sour taste in my mouth, because it has. Because the show runners are lying racist misogynistic nasty assholes who bullshitted us for nothing.

Toward the end of last year/beginning of this year Chef’s Kiss fans words made their way to some journalist who then asked about the potential for it with the actors and the writer( in an article stupidly named “don’t worry the bear doesn’t want carmy and sydney to kiss, either” the writer of which goes on to ship carmy and marcus so clearly they have excellent taste 😒) who all shut it down. Fine. That’s fine. That’s their opinion and it doesn’t affect us. What bothers me is the words of the co-creator Chris Storer who said this 👇🏾

He went on to say the show was also just meant to be focused on these people doing their jobs. So fine. We said even if it won’t be canon there’s no way they would bring in a new love interest cause that’s not “the vision” they have for the show, right?(He also goes on in the pic above to act like we couldn’t separate our love of the plot of the show from the ship which is…infantilizing and annoying) continuing on though, he also said this

He thought it would be cool to see a show with no romantic plot. Mind you this statement was made in January and the show starting filming in February. So unless they want me to believe they added this romance plot as some last minute thing (which very well could be the case as Claire has quite literally no personality outside of being pushy and being Carmy’s girlfriend) they knew they were having a romance plot in the second season and chose to lie about it. So the actors, the creator, basically everyone who was apart of this project said that Syd and Carmy were a weird ship (a strange thing to say to your, at the time, small audience even if that’s how you felt) just for them to turn around and have Carmy with a new love interest from school and have Sydney and marcus develop feelings for one another in the second to last episode? can y’all be fucking forreal for one minute?

Suddenly all you “yesss let men and women be friends, not every show needs romance” ass bitches want to ship something. I can tell you know Syd and Carmy have chemistry otherwise you wouldn’t have been shaking in your boots hoping the writers wouldn’t get them together. There was some dumb post i saw rooting for Claire and Carm but then adding ‘no one was better than platonic Sydcarmy’…

I see you.

I spoke about this before, but this constant sidelining of black women in these types of shows irks me. Sydney is basically hunting Carmy down for 85% of the season because he can’t do his fucking job he’s so consumed with Claire. And I know people are gonna say i’m being overdramatic, but it’s so clear they just did not want their main white boy to be with a black girl. Something that happens over and over and over again so many fucking times you can just lose count. Carmy, who in season one was so in tune with Sydney’s emotions he quelled his own anger and anxiety to ask if she was ok now ditches her at their restaurant to go help some girl he hasn’t seen since high school. He ditches her to go to a party then has the nerve to bring up Claire’s helping to inspire him.

Like yeah no shit Sydney is sorry that she’s there, y’all are opening a restaurant together which could fuck both your lives if it fails and Carmy is off doing god knows what instead of his job!

WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED?!? And yeah, Carmy fucks it up at the end with Claire but that doesn’t negate the rest of the season. Chef’s Kiss shippers are strange and delusional and the show doesn’t need romance and then Claire is half naked in Carmy’s apartment? Look Carmy deserves happiness, his life has been basically nonstop stress and trauma since he was a kid and him ending the season thinking he doesn’t deserve fun or love is heartbreaking because it isn’t true, he deserves all the love in the world especially since he is actively trying to break the cycle (along with his sister). That doesn’t negate the fact that he agreed to being partners with Syd and then left her to make decisions on her own about a business they agreed to start together. Which is why he apologized and rightfully so.

And I know for a fact annoying Sydney and Marcus shippers are going to be like “well ackshully they are clearly setting up Sydcus this season so how can they hate black women.” I love Marcus as much as the next person and honestly after I saw where the writing was going I was like fuck it why not at this point, but if Sydney and Carmy’s shippers were living off crumbs Sydney and Marcus shippers were living off the memory of food. But sure that ship had development.

also no i don’t fuck with that syd and marcus ship because why the fuck are you snapping at sydney cause she rejected you and it wasn’t even really a rejection that was very incel core and it’s not about being upset half the kitchen is always screaming about something, it’s why he snapped at her.

I’m just angry so yeah fuck this show.

I’m genuinely contemplating if I want to watch the next season at all. I said if they wanted to go no romance, fine go no romance, but to not only lie about that but bring in some whole new girl we don’t know and throw the black girl to the closest guy despite the fact Sydney and Carmy are more alike than anyone else? You clearly need to do some introspection and think about why you can view Sydney and Carmen as friends but get sick at the thought of them being more.

There is a possibility (a slight possibility) that they are playing the long game we wanted, but i am wary because they lied and put a manic pixie indie girl in as a love interest this time and it sucked. But then I remember the scene with Syd and Carmy under the table and how open and honest they were with each other and even though their relationship wasn’t the best this season I can see it’s potential, because that one scene had more chemistry than all of that other ships other scenes combined. I don’t know.

This got me thinking though Will Poulter romcom when? I will be seated. Also the consensus on twitter is that people really didn’t like Claire and thought the show should have ditched their plot all together so that’s nice. A lot of people seem to think this is a setup for sydcarmy and idk, maybe i’ll rewatch when i’m more calm.

[currymanganese]

Quick question people!

Now, I could just be biased because I know @devisrina and I (and some other anonymous Sydcarmy truthers) collaborated on what we have up on the shipping wiki so far....But if you'd never watched The Bear and read this, would you or would you not be convinced that some romantic subtext is there?

I seriously want to know.......For reasons..🥴

[a-fragile-little-teacup]

i wanna talk about the bear

THIS IS MY OPINION! THIS IS NOT ME CLAIMING THIS AS FACT OR DIRECTLY ACCUSSING ANYONE OF SHIT! IF YOUR INSTINCT IS TO INSULT ME BECAUSE OUR OPINIONS DON'T LINE UP, THEN I WOULD ADVISE THAT YOU JUST SCROLL AWAY! I AM OPEN TO DISCUSSION, NOT BULLYING.

Hi.

So.

I love The Bear. I think it's a great show with interesting characters and well done directing and cinematography. It's great.

However, that doesn't mean that I have no critiques. And there is one that I feel a need to mention on the internet.

I am very worried about how the show is portraying Claire.

When the newest season came out and I started seeing some... interesting things being said/made about Claire, I assumed it was the fans getting a little defensive. That commonly happens when a show introduces a female romantic interest. To put it simply, I didn't think that it was something being pushed by the show's creators.

I was wrong.

First of all, let's talk about Claire and what I've seen said about her.

She was introduced this season as a love interest for Carmy. Interesting plotline for this show to explore, honestly.

Once the newest season came out, I saw a scary amount of viewers either pushing for the show to simply be pitting Clarie against Syd or they were blaming Claire for Carmy's actions.

two women of similar ages can exist in connection to a male character without them needing to fight over that male character. It dismisses a lot of both Syd and Claire's characters to only see them as being romantically tied to Carmy.

Carmy is responsible for his actions. Don't let his status as a pretty white boy distract from the fact that he's really kinda shitty as a person. He's unreliable and commonly dismisses a lot of accountability. It is not Claire's fault that Carmy didn't show up when he needed to.

I truly thought that this was just the fanbase, so I wasn't going to talk about it. I don't really enjoy being part of fandom culture at all. It is not usually great for my mental health. The cost of my well-being is almost never worth whatever I get as a result of being in that world.

However, I think the creative team on The Bear played a major role in the opinion forming around Claire, even if it wasn't intentional (which I obviously can't prove either way).

And I wanna explain why I think this is happening.

Carmy name drops her a lot. Especially when discussing the restaurant and the menu, he will push her name all the time. This is often around Syd because Syd's his business partner. This helped form an association.

Claire came up with a lot of ideas for what the two of them did. This made it easier for people to claim that she was forcing him away from the restaurant but I'm going to argue (a) that she didn't know all of the details around the restaurant's opening for most of the season and (b) that it was Carmy's responsibility to say no or explain that he was busy. If he hadn't said anything at all and was simply dragged around, then that would be one thing, but I don't personally believe that's what was shown throughout the season.

The panic attack scene in the last episode. Claire is shown in tandem with Carmy's family, which is largely seen as a source for Carmy's anxiety and panic attacks before it cuts to Syd seeming to be the reason that he calms down. This was such a wild fucking thing to throw in during the last episode. I don't know what the true intention behind this scene was, but I don't think it played as well as it could have.

I don't give a singular shit about who you ship with who or what you want to happen in the next season. That's not what this post is about.

Regardless of any of that, it is not fair to make Claire into this twisted almost-villain when she simply isn't one. She was described incredibly kindly by every character that talked about her (Richie, Michael, Carmy, Sugar, Fak).

She clearly has a personality beyond Carmy, which doesn't always happen when writing a female romantic interest (a discussion that I could write a whole separate post about and tie back to The Bear).

The way her character has been treated is worrying and if she is to return for season 3, then I'm equally as worried about how the writers will treat her.

[futuregws]

Update on my opinion on the bear, since I started a conversation about ships and the show itself I will make two separate posts for this, this one is about ships (I'm currently on ep 6 season 2 btw).

So basically my opinion is the same but stronger I guess, I don't get it, Syd and Marcus so far I HIGHLY doubt anything will happen he definitely has a crush on her but I'm not sure she likes him, but still I personally feel like they would work a lot better, still I don't personally ship them I just prefer them, about Syd and Carmy all I'm seeing is a friendship/partnership that people are trying too fucking hard to make it something else, I've seen their shippers throw literal tantrums when people rightfully bring up the fact that men and women being close does not equal a relationship or romantic feelings, they seem to like to use that against others a lot by also adding small little scenes to "prove their point" and what's even more ridiculous is how mad they get when people say that they only ship them as platonic soulmates, like am I obligated to ship Syd and Carmy romantically to be a fan of the show, bc if so let me know bc I will piss out I don't wanna deal with that behavior. Like there's this war between the people that think it's platonic and the people that think it's romantic and once again like in so many other fandoms they seem to have this superiority complex (some of them). But at the end of the day if you wanna ship them, go for it, but other people don't have to, and when you bring up scenes like his panic attack or the fridge scene and say shit like this:

Like no it won't become invalid.

It's as if your opinion/take on a scene is the only correct one therefore others need to see it the same way, it's absolutely insane, specially if you then go and see what the actors say about their characters and their "relationship" and it completely contradicts what the shippers are going for, like the whole, oh him calming down thinking about her during a panic attack is peak romance, thing gets completely crushed by all of this

Like dude this is what jeremy said:

And this is what Ayo said:

Soooo, maybe don't act like your opinion is above others when the actors would literally agree with the people calling them platonic, you know the ones that y'all like to call delusional and say that their opinion is invalid. Y'all like to make fun of this (which is very strange like what year did y'all get stuck on) but yeah men and women can be friends/best friends/coworkers hell whatever tf without romantic feelings, like do y'all fall in love with every single person you meet/all of your friends, are y'all okay?? No one is in denial no one's opinion is invalid here YOU ship them, doesn't mean it's romantic or that anyone else needs to see them as such or that they have to be.

Anyway I will give my opinion on the actual show in a minute (even though no I'm not finished yet lol)

[shiverandqueeef]

sorry to bother you i know you were saying in the tags that you don't care about shipping discourse in the bear fandom but i'm curious what you think of the ships anyways lmao

haha! no worries man, not a bother at all. there aren't really any hot takes to be found here, but im happy to share my lukewarm opinions

carmy/syd: love them. i want to see them continue to grow close, open up, and trust/rely on each other. if that means romance, that's cool! but i would be just as enthused about a platonic/familial relationship. what matters to me is that they love each other.

syd/marcus: love them. cute as hell. everybody should be a little in love with syd anyways. if it develops into syd realizing she has romantic feelings for marcus in return, that's cool! if syd doesn't have romantic feelings and the story becomes marcus learning how to get over his crush while keeping their working relationship in tact/remaining friends (and going on to become better friends than before)...also cool!

syd/richie: hate it! godspeed to those who ship it, it's just not my cup of tea

carmy/claire: this one is a little trickier as it depends on a) what the writers intended to be the takeaway from the relationship falling apart in the finale and b) if claire is going to be in s3. if the point was meant to be 'claire is perfect for carmy but his unresolved emotional trauma got in the way' i can see what the writers were going for, however, the actors just didn't have enough chemistry and the use of typical cinema shorthand for Romance™ made it all fall a little bit flat imho. if, on the other hand, the intended takeaway was the slightly less straightforward 'carmy's unresolved emotional trauma has left him unable to connect with/understand his own wants and desires, leading him to entre a relationship that looks great on paper but isn't right for him, and when it all falls apart he comes to the false conclusion that he simply is not build for romance, nor does he deserve it.' then, you know. great job guys! 10/10. with the show unfinished i simply have no way of knowing which it is

[oyasumire]

additional bear posting but i find it interesting how many people insist the syd/carmy backlash is coming from a place of fandom racism and misogynoir like obviously I'm very aware those things do exist and I'm not saying there are no people guilty of it, but in general, everyone I've personally seen explain why they aren't into the ship have been for the exact opposite reasons, aka: carmy is a mess and syd deserves more than being his therapy gf. I made this post last night and came across this post as well that puts it into better words and idk where the disconnect is coming from but it just seems like a common consensus that a lot of people would rather not ship a couple where it's very clear the black woman would be more or less burdened with saving a broken white man.

black women being tasked with "saving" everything is a tried and true trope that exists well beyond the realms of fiction and extends into the real world with people genuinely believing it's our sole duty to make the world a better place so yeah, I think it should be extremely understandable where people (other black women like me especially) are coming from when we say we would rather Not see yet another dynamic like that in fiction. sydney is a beautiful character, I love her dearly and she has to be one of my favorite black women I've ever seen in fiction, and it would absolutely ruin her for me if she and carmy were put together and his problems had to become her own.

like I know some people have been outright attacking the syd/carmy shippers and I don't think that's practical bc yall are just picking up on the signals the writers have included. My main issue is I don't want those signals to exist in the first place bc I don't see why they have to. sydney's growth means the world to me but I don't want that growth to be dependent on a romantic relationship when she's remarkable on her own. and it's okay for people to want a black woman to flourish on her own (while being uplifted by her community) instead of once again having her do the uplifting for the sake of a white man in particular.

[uncriticalbunny]

I absolutely agree with your sentiments with regards to syd's yet unexplored sexuality but am I the only person peeved at the wardrobe choices for Syd, I appreciate her quirky, nerdy vibe but she dresses like a drab middle aged school teacher. Ayo herself has such a funky, unorthodox yet undeniably sexy vibe, she is gorgeous with an insane body. while the show does not need to have her in revealing outfits, some fitted or more age appropriate clothing would not diminish her character arc. it almost seems as if the show wishes to diminish her attractiveness, to reduce her desirability as a woman and thus vetoing any possible romance with the white stud Carmy, it always baffles me that with the exception of Molly Gordon most be ppl downplay the white hot chemistry between JAW and Ayo like it is so noticeable. there is real fire between them that any show runner wold have capitalized on.Realistic audience sees it, if syd was white, ppl would be shipping it. but u know the black girls gotta stay platonic

i think syd's style is quirky and cute and very in line with her characterization. the costume designer is black btw, but she's still beholden to storer's vision and gets input from the actors. she also did an interview, it's an interesting process! tbh even if syd was in drop dead gorgeous attire, this fandom would still struggle to see her desirability [as it generally is w/ black female characters]. it would still be nice to see for sure. because you're right, there is something to be said about it in the larger context of how black female characters in media are treated.

I sense there is a desire, I guess to try to get people to take sydney seriously by making her low femme. but it really kinda just ends up feeding into certain stereotypes. black woman -> serious character -> low-key fashion -> not seen as desirable both by the cameras/fandom -> ergo lesbian storyline w zero effort/straight or ace w no need for a romance arc. [sidenote: I think ayo has been lit a lot better this season [still not 100%] and they finally got a clue to focus on those amazing eyes of hers.] which I would normally be like whatever to these things in a show like the bear, but the show and its creators are doing and saying a lot of funky things about sydney, both quietly and out loud.

i've spoken about it ad nauseum and now I'm just tired at the circus surrounding the ship. i will simply go back to continue appreciating my completed shows with satisfying romantic arcs featuring black women whose actors/creators weren't prompted about and didn't cry every 2 seconds about ships ☝🏿 [the expanse and twd to name a few]

[kaelatargaryen]

I literally just said that I know there are racist folks who don’t like Syd and Carmy but this post is not an example of that and just because there are racist people in the fandom it doesn’t mean that every person who doesn’t ship them is racist.

I watched the show, I’ve read articles. I read this thread too. I don’t go on Twitter because I know what Twitter is like but every time I get on tumblr, NO ONE is ever allowed to say they don’t like sydcarmy without it being suggested that they’re racist or they’re being driven by racism. I’m not arguing that there’s racism in any fandom because I know there is, I just don’t like that you see a post talking about her youth making folks uncomfortable and you're calling them racist.

So I’ll say this again, I grew up in a mixed family, I support interracial relationships and I have family that wouldn’t exist without them but I’m telling you this with my full chest and not an ounce of racism in my body. I fucking hate the concept of sydcarmy and don’t know how anyone could support it. Not only do I not see any chemistry with them on screen, I don’t think there’s true respect there. I don’t think Carmy deserves Sydney and I hate the idea that she even needs to be in a relationship. I’m aromantic and I think people but women especially, should be able to exist without romance being a requirement to their “success.” I’ve seen people accused of being racist over that too and as an aromantic, I think that’s ridiculous because I don’t think the Bear should become a show with a romantic storyline and I would have to laugh at you if you suggested I was racist because of that.

I don’t ship anyone from that show, I read fanfiction from the show with reader/oc love interests for that same reason. I’m allowed to feel that way and I should be allowed to express it on a public platform without think pieces being typed up about how I’m actually another example of racism because I don’t support the same ship you do.

People are allowed to think differently than you and it doesn’t always mean they’re thinking about it from a place of malice or bias.

I can't explain this, but Black women looking young is somehow being added to the convenient excuses to not ship Black women with popular white leading men but ~not in a racist way~

She's strong and independent, she doesn't need him

He's a mess, she can do better

She should be gay! or with minor Black side character!

NEW: She looks so young :(

I'm obviously picking on this particular person but I've seen several people dismiss SydCarmy because "he's a much older, mentor figure! that'd be inappropriate!" And like??? HUUUUH???

Sydney and Carmy are an absolute MAX of 5 years apart in age. And while Ayo looks beautiful, 19 she does not look! Sydney went to culinary school and has worked at several fine dining establishments before launching her own business, common sense says she's at least in her late 20s. And while Carmy has more restaurant experience, he was a literal prodigy who started young.

ALSO, this is kind of an aside but where the fuck is Carmy mentoring Sydney in any real capacity?

S1 - she gets hired, 2 days later she was like "hey I redid your entire business plan because your shit is fucked, a day later he asked her to lead the brigade and then ditched her. He went to cater Cicero's party with Richie and once again Sydney was in charge DURING A POWER OUTAGE. She quit mid-service, comes back, and he's like want to start a restaurant with me?? Not as a fucking mentee, as a partner

S2 - Sydney is making the construction timeline decisions and present and participating in financial/loan conversations with the literal owners of the Beef/Bear. Sydney is part of designing the menu. Sydney is hiring. The only mentor-mentee relationship she's in is with TINA!

Does Sydney look up to Carmy because he's in many ways accomplished her culinary dreams? Absolutely. But people acting like she's some bright eyed student he's teaching to dice onions is fucking crazy.