#i don't even like it when people attack the characters

[tommyssupercoolblog]

For context, comments make it clear that Op's original post was specifically about people hating on a character in a way that includes "if I met them IRL" or even specifically alters or kin or something, so the post was already specifically about that.

My original interpretation was actually that this was a meme about "that system feel where it feels like if someone says they don't like your source it's actually a personal attack even if u know it's not" and the meme was exaggerated on purpose but it seems like the meme was actually supposed to be "that feel when someone says that if your source existed IRL they would murder them on purpose and you just have to stand there and block them and go "what the fuck guys"" and so this commenter is just... literally doing that

Also how similar alters are to their source varies so going "alters in my system are similar to source and so it's okay if I'm discriminatory on that basis" is. Already wack before you even factor in the obvious caviat of THOSE SIMILARITIES MIGHT NOT INCLUDE THE ACTUAL BAD THING IN QUESTION IT COULD JUST BE SPEECH MANERISMS OR SOMETHING ELSE HARMLESS EVEN IF THEY DO PICK UP HABITS FROM SOURCE 💀💀💀💀 wild behavior

[utilitycaster]

can you explain what you mesn by monkey ladder in reference to the CR fandom? as someone from C1 i would probably be able to give you the insight you asked for in your tags but im unsure of the angle you are coming from.

Oh yeah, it describes a phenomenon I've repeatedly seen in all aspects of my life but I wasn't aware there was an idiom for it. Basically, it describes how communities/institutions continue following patterns of behavior even when said behaviors are in response to a no-longer relevant problem and even when the people who originated said behaviors and remember the original reason are gone.

So: imagine an experiment with five monkeys, a ladder, and bananas on top of the ladder. Whenever a monkey goes for the ladder to reach the bananas, a researcher sprays all the monkeys with ice water. After enough attempts, the monkeys, understandably, begin attacking any one of them that reaches for the ladder in order to avoid this punishment.

The researchers then swap out one of the monkeys for a new monkey. When the new monkey reaches for the ladder, the other monkeys attack them and prevent them from reaching it.

They then swap out another monkey, and when the second new monkey reaches for the ladder, not only do the other monkeys attack them - the first "new" monkey joins in. And so on. Eventually, you can reach a point where all five monkeys in the room have never even been sprayed with ice water. They don't know why they are attacking people who reach for the ladder other than that they were attacked for reaching for the ladder. And here's the kicker: the researchers haven't sprayed anyone in ages, and actually, they've turned off the water, and if someone reached for the ladder, they'd be fine. But they won't.

So it's about groups enforcing behaviors that arose in response to something specific that is no longer present, even after the group no longer recalls, necessarily, why it was present.

Anyway: as someone with the specific experience of watching campaign 1 and early campaign 2 concurrently, having started with Campaign 2, ie, joined the fandom in Campaign 2 and have been here ever since, the following viewpoints are all imo "monkey-ladder" problems: people carrying forward stereotypes/fandom behaviors that I think originated in Campaign 1 but which many new fans never actually experienced:

specifically the one I mentioned in my previous post - the idea that Sam and Travis make stupid joke characters and aren't taking this seriously. (This sometimes splits into Sam Makes Dumb Joke Characters And Travis Is Himself A Stupid Person. The latter has fortunately abated but it was still alive and kicking as late as early C3)

The idea that Marisha and Laura; or Taliesin and Liam, make characters with exceptional romantic chemistry with each other. (They didn't have this in C1 either; while chemistry is obviously a subjective metric I find these specifically two of the weakest cases of cast romantic chemistry and definitely the two weakest of same gender cast romantic chemistry but they were held up as the only viable PC/PC queer romances given that Ashley was often absent, Grog wasn't interested, and people wrote off Scanlan as a dumb joke and Tary came around after Percy and Vex were already together)

Any criticism of Marisha is Forbidden Forever due to the harassment she received in C1 (we got monkeys who joined the fandom mid-C3 beating up people who were like I'm Not Vibing With Laudna who had been staunch Keyleth defenders during the actual run of C1, for example)

I'm sure there's others that aren't coming to mind but this is a good starting point: basically, it's people who weren't in the fandom in C1 and might not even have seen Campaign 1 carrying over opinions that really only made sense in Campaign 1 and honestly weren't even good then.

For a fun interrogation of this (carryover of an opinion/behavior with no other reason than This Is What I Was Told When I Joined) within the context of an actual play, see Iga Lisowski in The Unsleeping City 2.

[ficsinhistory]

Gun and Stones

So, I was thinking about Stone these days and some small thoughts came to mind, especially thanks to @shitposting-for-the-soul

Many people think that Stone will become the big villain of Sonic 4 and while I want this man to go through the very valid crash out that he needs to have… I don't believe that this will translate into villainy.

Not against Earth and the team of heroes at least.

Stone is evil. But he also has standards. Are they only relevant to him? Yes, but he does. We've already seen that he's not xenophobic, not caring about Shadow's world domination because he considered him an ally and treated him as such, regardless of the hedgehog being an alien. He took control of a café in Green Hills through shady means, but only because he followed Ivo's manifesto and it didn't even cross his mind to dominate the world without the Doctor.

And that's the thing, Stone wanted to dominate the world with Robotnik. To be his right hand man.

And with Eggman presumed dead, I don't believe any plan to enslave humanity would even cross his mind.

You ask me: Stone has already started a posthumous plan for Ivo once, why not start over?

And I answer: Because of the way Ivo died.

Robotnik sacrificed himself to save the Earth, since he couldn't save it. Not only that, he made that very clear in his final message. And I doubt Stone would want to attack humanity after the most important person in his life sacrificed everything to keep it.

Taking over the Earth would not only be empty without Ivo, it would tarnish the Doctor's ultimate sacrifice. And Stone would never act against Eggman's wishes.

But Stone is also grieving, and that pain and sadness needs to go somewhere.

And I believe it will be directed in two ways, although both end up on the same target: GUN.

The first is that Stone's anger and sadness is directed at GUN from the beginning.

He was once part of this organization and Stone knows how insidious it is. It was because of them that Gerald went crazy and built the Eclipse Cannon. It was because of them that Ivo was discarded without further ado. All this chaos happened because of them.

And Stone wouldn't let that go unpunished.

Maybe he plans to act against GUN alone or when Sonic and the others inevitably face them - especially since Rockwell will probably be the new leader - they need Stone's help, who will be more than happy to help.

Add to that the possibility that Stone will become Shadow's new guardian and this man's anger will triple.

The second is more complicated: Stone will try to get revenge on Sonic and company… because he thinks they were responsible for Ivo's death.

Yes, yes, we know that Tails and Knuckles saved Eggman from his despicable grandfather… but not Stone. Sonic already tried to kill Ivo once and was disappointed when he realized he hadn't succeeded. He has no reason to think that this wasn't what happened again.

Stone would blame them…and that's where GUN would come in.

With Rockwell in charge, the Wachowskis are already on thin ice. With Metal Sonic and Amy Rose showing up? Nah, they're going to be on a witch hunt for all the aliens. And they took advantage of Stone's grief by claiming that it was Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles who killed Robotnik in an attempt to bring him over to their side. Is that a blatant lie? Absolutely, but it's not like GUN plays fair and has any morals anyway lol.

Of course, this would only work if Shadow isn't under his care.

But assuming he isn't, that's quite likely. As is the truth coming out.

My best guess is that Amy would bring Stone to his senses with a speech like she did with Shadow in SA2, perhaps using her temporal powers to show him what really happened (Amy and Stone would get along well in general in my opinion since both characters have caring and unconditional love as a big part of who they are).

We also have the possibility of the team or even Shadow himself telling what really happened.

And Stone would be livid with GUN using him. Again. And tainting Ivo's memory and wishes.

Anyway, I can't wait to see Stone back and terrorizing GUN! Thanks for reading!

[prapaiwife]

Semi rant

So I wanted to talk about how I've seen alot of ppl labeling cirrus now hold your pitch forks cause I know some will say well you like prapai so not shocking you will be okay with this. Well first off I know that alot of ppl place their disdain on cirrus or someone like prapai because they hate the perosn who even made these characters. And a lot of ppl already have their preconceptions regarding mame. And it's one thing to be critical about her shows, but then, on the other side, I see just about balant disrespect. Cause their is seemingly always this constant policing moralitly of her shows. So if their is a "bad" character, suddenly you are now a bad person for writing this and trying to sway the audience, or you're a bad person for just watching the show! And that's why it's easy for some ppl to hate cirrus or prapai, but to focus on cir he is a character that is shaped by his trauma which was very intense and very insane psychologically physically and emotional abuse from his mother. And in doing so was abandoned by his father who basically chose his brother over him he was sheltered heavily in all aspects of his life from his mother. She made it very clear to him that his life is not his to begin with never has and will be. It's no wonder why he would have such deep fear of his loved ones being harmed he wouldn't want anyone to get mixed up in the life that he hates so much for himself. But yet some people will think that this all shouldn't shape his personality in any way and how he chooses to conduct himself. When really this should be very understanding as to why he is acting the way that he is. It's as if cir needs to be just a black and white person no grayness at all to him. Cir doesn't know what love is and yet people kind of expect him to go about it in a non on problematic way. Him stalking phu is a big issue and trauma shouldn't excuse someone's bad behavior true. But the way I teach some people talk about him it's like as if they are just labeling him to just being a soccer and that is it. It's as if your saying that the victims who have traumatic situations and any accessible abuse need to be a quote unquote perfect victim. We're seeing him literally operating on the very little knowledge he has about love he doesn't know much all he knows is that he deeply loves and it's really committed to poo. And he is doing everything in his power to protect who from his abuser he's not free yet from his abusers control. But yet he's supposed to have his all figured out on his own and be what what I feel like some of y'all want and that is for him to be morally correct. Victims of trauma do not owe anyone a representation let alone a perfect one that you already have built up in your head. And authors or creators also if we're being honest do not owe you the allowance to disrespect them either for what they write. It's easy to move reality from fiction and media but I know at the same time some people really just don't care enough to do so to actually understand it all so. But look cir is a very sad and tragic character he's a victim of abuse still in that cycle of abuse and he fell in love yet doesn't know how to go about that in a way that is healthy. I'm not saying that you have to say that his stalking is now in the back of the mind because no. I feel like just understanding him and being attacked empathetic would be more nicer instead of just saying that he's a stalker and that is all to him as a character.

Again we've been down this road with prapai and sky because prapai "stalked" sky. When if we go back to how their story started Pai from the jump we have been shown is a player and i think some forget that when they first met. He goes to these races to obviously participate but he also picks up people to hook up with so when he saw sky that day to him it was nothing out of the ordinary. It's just the interaction of how sky and pai met and their interactions afterwards that give people the reason to label him as a "stalker". When in actuality prapai saw that there was more to sky than what he was showing and telling. Prapai grew such concern and worry for sky's well-being when he started to looked into his eyes he can tell that there was something really wrong and even though he didn't know he didn't and couldn't ignore it, it was really weighing on his mind something he constantly asked allowed when he's by himself and when he has found his arms that day when using care from he was sick he just wanted to know what happened. And I honestly think he would have really been regretful if he didn't stick around as long as he did to be there for sky. And yeah sky saw it as him being annoying. But we also saw Skye very much so he was fighting with the feeling of actually liking someone showing him so much care and concern but he also tried not to let it get so much into his head. But because of prapai's patience and his actions lining up behind his words it led to him and sky having a very strong respectful relationship.

[stupidcanofpeaches]

david is so real for this

[ube-bluebay]

i have a problem

really long rambling in tags

[anghraine]

One of the weirder parts of being formally tested for autism as an adult—apart from the hellscape of hours of math hell—was that they kept asking me for my conclusions or opinions about things I had very little knowledge of. These weren't basic facts you'd expect someone to pick up in the course of a standard US education, and I kept repeating that I would have to do actual research to form opinions on subjects I had no significant information about.

Obviously, "not opinionated" isn't a major problem for me when I do have a reasonable amount of information, but my eventual diagnosis specifically mentioned that I kept repeating that I would have to do more research to acquire the necessary baseline of data for forming opinions on [whatever], and that the phrasing of my various refusals tended to be identical or very similar (I didn't see any need to alter my wording when I was simply repeating the same position over and over).

*cough*

Anyway this is also about Star Trek. (Surprise.) I knew Spock would be relatable before we started the grand TOS watch, but did not expect him to be the most relatable character on television ever, and his continual refusals to deliver opinions without enough data for informed theories was actually a big part of this.

[ask-artsy-oncie]

I think, what I've just never understood when it came to shipping wars, and how I think you can identify someone who's Taking Things Too Seriously, is when someone cannot even bare to acknowledge canon friendships between characters because they feel it actively threatens their ship somehow. When someone goes out of their way to explain that "these characters aren't actually friends, of course. If you read between the lines you can tell." or "actually this friendship is toxic so naturally they'll break it off soon for their health. They just don't belong together, yknow?" or "oh yeah I'm writing an AU. Yeah. Of course in this AU it's circumstantially impossible for these two characters to be friends. How sad. Oh well."

It honestly fucking gives insecure controlling partner vibes, and every time I see it I just know the person in question is getting into the most vile discourse I've ever heard of lol. Genuinely, do you even like these characters (or one of the characters or whatever) outside of the context of shipping? Do you even enjoy the source material? What's wrong with friendships?

[stop-breaking-my-heart-telltale]

if dorian didn't show up, do you think louis would have shot minnie?

I do. I know some people think either he wouldn't have or he would've missed so that's why the writers had him shoot Dorian instead, but mmmmmm no, I don't personally think so. I like to think that if he had taken the shot, his shaky hands would've caused him to shoot her fatally.

Mostly because I'm already so normal about the fact that of the Ericson crew, Marlon and Louis are the only ones with a body count. Well, that we know of, but shown to us in the game, at least. Plus, we know it's Louis' first kill.

Like yeah, Clementine and AJ become part of the crew and they have bigger body counts, and if we're counting indirect kills caused by actions, then Tenn has a count... and I guess everyone has blood on their hands for blowing up the boat... but I'm talking about killed directly with a weapon like....... I lied, I'm not normal about that at all, Louis and Marlon are the ones who have killed someone in Louis' route. I'm also not normal about the fact that Louis kills Dorian and then even as he's clearly in shock, he tries to go with Clementine to get AJ, and then later on when they talk about it, he says it feels like bile but not quite and he's glad he has it in him to do it.... listen, listen, listen... I'm obsessed with that.

Anyway, so if Louis shot Minerva, I think he would've accidentally killed her and can you imagine? He's already enough of a mess after killing the woman who pinned him down and tried to cut his finger off [or succeeded] but he knew Minerva, they were friends before the twins were taken. Even Violet couldn't kill her even though that would've been the smarter thing to do, and we know thanks to meta knowledge that killing her would've saved lives, but Violet couldn't, and I don't think Louis would intentionally either.

Speaking of Violet, if Louis killed Minerva, I hate to think about what that would've done to Vi. I think she might've actually left at that point, like what was planned before it got changed to her being burned. I don't think she would've attacked Louis over it, though, like yeah she attacked Clementine in the cell but Louis? I don't know, but I don't think so just because it's Louis and he'd be a mess about it anyway.

Though if he did kill her, it would be a neat parallel to draw... y'know, because Louis forgave AJ for killing Marlon even though he was pissed and heartbroken, and Violet was annoyed with him the entire time... but could she ever forgive Louis for killing Minerva? Y'know? We already have a similar parallel with AJ shooting Tenn, but still.

If Clementine killed Minerva in that moment, though, then I could see Violet attacking her since in her eyes, Clem proved her right.

So yeah, I get why they added the Dorian kill to his route. It adds another compelling element to Louis as a character, but we also need Minerva alive for episode 4; Louis can't kill her, he can't miss, and he's not going to stay with her because we need Violet to stay on the boat and him to be on shore for all routes.

[unproduciblesmackdown]

anytime there's production trivia for something i've actually seen like "& the director didn't tell any of the actors this was going to happen so as to get Not Acted Surprise, from the Actors" it's like that's so funny the way i didn't ever see that part as like wow that seemed so particularly genuine to me compared to other parts of this work or other works in general. but on the other hand there'll be scenes in something where a surprising event occurs around multiple characters and there'll be trivia like "wow the way nobody (else) knew this was going to happen beforehand, in so impactful a scene, that makes sense" and then someone involved will be like that's not true

[teufelme]

You ever just want to talk about Bertl,

[theenemyod]

I keep feeling like I'm being hated even though I know I'm just overreacting and it's constructive criticism or a joke at worst. Why must my brain assume everyone hates me it's very inconvenient and causes much stress.

[llycaons]

im finally feeling awake now so @pharahsgf this is the post I was talking about

foolish. reductive. immature. disrespectful. willfully ignorant. WRONG

[noxianwilled]

kat doesn't share things about her private life most of the time. don't expect her to, you know, do photoshoots and interviews and whatever else with anyone she's with at the time or even talking about it very openly. if there's a serious relationship, she'd acknowledge it exists, but not talk about it in detail (it's harder to keep it low when the other person is also famous, and i don't think she'd necessarily avoid being seen with them sometimes, but yeah in general she tries to keep things as private as possible, especially when it comes to romantic relationships - friends and such only if they prefer to keep a low profile). so i feel fans would get invested in finding out whatever is going on through pictures of her with people, rumors, lyrics and such, but she doesn't really engage with it in any way at all.

the fact she doesn't share anything if she can help it makes it pretty clear she's not interested in what people have to say. the reaction can range from indifferent to really pissed off, depends on the opinions (she does avoid them, if she can, from media and the public alike). managers trying to have any say in her personal life and how it's presented would immediately be fired though (she had a controlling mother for a manager when she was younger and she's not about to let another person have a say on her private life like that ever again).

when it's fans talking about how they connect to songs or feel seen and understood in some way or like they belong or whatever she'd be really soft about it (she loves her fans! she does appreciate their love!) but when it comes to her personal life no matter how supportive the messages she doesn't wanna know (the only type she'd appreciate, and even then she tries to keep a never reading comments policy so the chance she'd see them is slim, is when people are like oh she looks happy i hope she's happy and whatnot). when it comes to the media and how it portrays things i sincerely think she's not polite at all when people try to get her to talk about things or create/suggest any sort of drama (her life has drama enough without that).

but commentaries about who she's dating or who she's friends with she's never interested in and if they're critical of people she loves she will be outright pissed off. like, idk, she's besties with draven, if she sees 'fans' talking shit about him for whatever reason she'll tell them to get fucked. if there's something about her being with darius and she comes across sb saying garen was better she would just answer like get a life and shut the fuck up that might delve into worse if it's not deleted in 5 seconds by her media team while the pr tries to avoid bigger incidents

[wreckedhoney]

^^ "coming to the conclusion that positioning the "can people enjoy things that would be immoral IRL in their fiction" debate as a proship v anti fandom debate is akin to pretending that "should we have the death penalty" is a discussion that only matters in Death Note discourse"

not proshipper not anti but a secret third thing (person who has a career in the media and, through covering legislative politics, has watched "associating with problematic fiction or entertainment is an indicator of moral degeneracy" rapidly become a mainstream GOP position that they are encoding in legislation to target the queer community under the guise of protecting children, thus coming to the conclusion that positioning the "can people enjoy things that would be immoral IRL in their fiction" debate as a proship v anti fandom debate is akin to pretending that "should we have the death penalty" is a discussion that only matters in Death Note discourse — the extent and manner to which fiction affects reality is an issue that is immediately relevant to today's US politics, and to summarize my opinions on the matter in fandom terms would be to diminish the ways this debate is affecting america Right The Fuck Now. and i have stopped taking "this person is bad for shipping the wrong anime thing and being horny about it" in any sort of good faith ever since I saw it literally used as part of a GOP smear campaign against a transgender state legislator in an attempt to defend the right from backlash after they used their supermajority in the Montana house to prevent her from speaking on the floor. Anyway I think everyone on this site, especially Americans, could benefit from ceasing to think in proship v anti vocabulary and instead developing coherent political positions on the nature of fiction that do not directly align with current fascist political tactics)

[randum-famdoms]

me: this chapter is going to be super fun and lighthearted! no sad thoughts today, no sir!

some demon inside me: this character is going to become so guilt ridden that they dissociate due to being reminded of their past

me: but... why.... you don't have to do this....

some demon inside me: vibes