#humfrey hardyng

[agentrouka-blog]

How does ashford theory account for “I was going to marry her to Robert!”? There is no Arryn suitor, and Robert has been mentioned more than once as a possible match for Sansa. In my opinion, that’s one of the most avid holes in the theory.

The fourth pavilion was sewn together from diamond-shaped pieces of cloth, alternating red and white. Dunk did not know the colors, but Egg said they belonged to a knight from the Vale of Arryn named Ser Humfrey Hardyng. "He won a great melee at Maidenpool last year, ser, and overthrew Ser Donnel [Darklyn?] of Duskendale and the Lords Arryn and Royce in the lists."

I think out of the two Vale "suitors", GRRM picked the one whose role is far more significant. The betrothal to Sweetrobin is mentioned as an option but is never plot-relevant, unlike the others. (Joffrey, Willas, Tyrion, Harry - they all drive the plot forward as matches to Sansa.) Honestly, I think that GRRM mostly put it in for the "how would you like to marry your cousin" line. The betrothal serves no political purpose that benefits Lysa at that point in time and is dropped with no repercussions.

GRRM gives a small mention to Arryn and Royce (Waymar being emphasized as Sansa's past crush in AFFC) in Hardyng's backstory, which could be interpreted as a nod in that direction.

Far more significant than leaving out the Arryn suitor is the inclusion of the Hardyng suitor. Because, literally, the name appears in no. other. context. but at this tourney and being one of Sansa's suitors. It's what drives home the significance of the other names in the first place. That's what makes the black-clad, dark-haired Targaryen such an interesting addition in that circle. What is the "black prince with the white guardian" doing in that company?

It's too much to be a coincidence, so what's the point of niggling at the ultimately insignificant details? It's an easter egg of a hint. Not an air-tight legal argument meant to hold up in court.

[istumpysk]

I came across an anon of yours saying that ashford theory has been 'debunked' because they and a lot of other people believe george created Harry Hardyng as replacement of Robert Arryn for scrapping the five year gap.

First of all, I would want to know what purpose only Harry could achieve in Sansa's story that Robert couldn't because of younger age, that George felt the need to create a considerably older suitor? I understand all the bnfs get boners at the idea of Sansa getting married to Harry and staying in the Vale forever, but again the same could've been achieved with Robert too. Its not like Tommen isn't his age and not married to Margaery. In actuality, normal people know Harry is dying because of 1) the Young moniker and 2) Sansa's wish of him falling, and again Robert could've died in his place easily too, to 'free' Sansa.

And if the purpose of his creation in event of not following the five year plan, wasn't an older betrothed/husband for Sansa, what was it?

Problem with the fandom is that they put too much emphasis and focus on things we know nothing about. Like when or how George decided to scrap the five year gap plan. Its pure speculation that it was between 2000 and 2005. And it is even more speculation that he had no plans to introduce Harry Hardyng before scrapping it, or that he was a last resort (which as I showed, there was no need of, as Robert, even five years younger, fulfills those purposes). Its the same with the original outline.

And there is too little focus on the actual canon, which is that Hardyng is a minor house with no other mention except in the Hedge Knight. Even if George DID create someone last minute, it is TOO much of a coincidence it just happened to be a Hardyng and that Sansa wishes for him to have an accident with his horse in the tourney like Humfrey (his counterpart) did in the Ashford tourney. In her latest chapter in 2015. Even if he did not intend it to be intentional, he sure seems to be retconning it. This is not even considering that all the other champions also share parallels with their Ashford counterparts:

Lyonel=Lion=Joffrey; Baratheon and Lannister champions defeat the maiden's brothers; Willas Tyrell is straight up called another Leo Tyrell; Valarr's father was named after Baelor the Blessed=Rhaegar was called another Baelor the Blessed. He himself is called a black prince with a white guardian=Jon.

George must be blind if he did not see any of this while writing it because one or two names similar, I can accept as coincidences, but ALL the champions have parallels with Sansa's suitors.

Well said, anon.

Let's address this head-on: the biggest problem with the Ashford theory is that the first person to discover it made a mess of it. Now, they wander the internet, asserting authority and attempting to undermine it, simply because they disagree with its clear conclusion.

The theory was so thoroughly botched that people think it can easily be tossed aside due to a technicality involving Robert Arryn or the tournament's disruption. As if that could ever be enough to dismiss the abundance of other similarities, many of which they're not even aware of.

Can you imagine the fandom insisting on any other theory being this airtight?

[murd3rbug]

self indulgent info dump about the hedge knight

I did this in a couple of hours and used the Hedge Knight as my only source for everything. If you see any mistakes please kindly correct me! This is mainly for me because I can't stop thinking about the Hedge Knight and want to do a project related to it, so here's everything I think I would need for it.

(contents: a [long] summary of the hedge knight, every named character, all of the tourney matches, the trial by 7 teams and deaths)

SUMMARY:

Ser Arlan of Pennytree, a hedge knight (or wandering knight), dies of a chill. His squire, Dunk is the only one who can bury him, and Dunk buries him facing the sunset, as he reflects on Ser Arlan's life. Dunk mourns the old man, yet continues taking their horses Thunder, Chestnut, and Sweetfoot, as well as Ser Arlan's sword and remaining money. He stops by an inn where he is near attacked by a drunk man, and where a bald boy called Egg demands to be his squire, but Dunk refuses because he did not want to ruin the boy's life. Dunk goes to the grand tourney at Ashford, hoping to earn some money, and Egg follows him. Dunk takes Egg as his squire, because of Egg's willpower.

At Ashford Dunk sells his horse, Sweetfoot, so that he can afford armor. He meets the cousins Ser Steffon Fossoway and his squire, Raymun Fossoway. However, he is not able to enter the lists for the tourney since no one can prove his knighthood; that is until the Hand of the King and heir to the throne Baelor Breakspear, vouches for him, after recalling how Ser Arlan broke 4 lances against him. However Prince Baelor's brother, Prince Maekar is dismissive of Dunk and is worried for his two missing sons, Prince Daeron and Prince Aegon. Dunk enters but only for the 3rd day, so he will have a better chance at winning.

On the 1st day, many jousts happen. The final joust is when Prince Aerion "Brightflame" Targaryen, grandson of King Daeron, nephew of Prince Baelor, and son of Prince Maekar uses his lance to kill Ser Humfrey Hardyng's horse. It's dishonorable and Humfrey breaks his leg in the fall. Ser Humfrey is declared the champion. That night, Prince Aerion attacks the puppeteer (Tanselle "Too-Tall) that Dunk has a crush on, because her show involved a dragon (the crest of House Targaryen) getting killed. Egg calls Dunk, and Dunk beats up Prince Aerion. When Dunk gets seized by the guards, Egg reveals himself to be Prince Aerion's younger brother, Prince Aegon Targaryen.

Aerion wants to behead Dunk, and Maekar finds his son, Prince Daeron who was supposed to accompany Egg, and Prince Daeron says that a robber knight took him so his father would not be disappointed in him. Daeron withdraws his accusation and tells Dunk that he dreamed of Dunk with a dead dragon, and that Daeron's dreams come true. Dunk demands a trail by combat and Aerion demands a trail by seven. (Teams listed on the bottom of this post.)

Baelor Breakspear fought against the Kingsguard, since the Kingsguard are bound by their vows to never harm a member of the Royal Family. Aerion fought against Dunk, since Aerion was Dunk's main accuser. Daeron was unhorsed by Ser Robyn. Prince Baelor drove down one of the Kingsguard, and it is implied he also did so to another Kingsguard and his brother, Prince Maekar. Aerion unhorsed Dunk, however Dunk was able to beat Aerion using tactics he learned from Flea Bottom. Aerion withdrew his accusation.

Afterwards, Dunk is heavily injured and the two Humfreys are dead. After Prince Baelor's helmet was removed, his brains fell out and he died. When Dunk is healed he attends the funeral, and the new heir to the throne, Prince Valarr, Baelor's eldest son asks Dunk why his father died for a hedge knight. Prince Maekar revealed to Dunk he accidentally killed his brother, even though he loved his brother and expressed his sadness and regret. Maekar told Dunk he sent Aerion to Lys, and he offered Dunk a position in his household, but Dunk declined. Instead, Dunk asks to take Prince Aegon as his squire, and continue to live as a poor hedge knight, as long as he continued to use the nickname "Egg."

EVERY NAMED CHARACTER:

Dunk (Ser Duncan the Tall)

Thunder

Chestnut

Sweetfoot

Ser Arlan of Pennytree

Egg (Aegon V)

Prince Daeron Targaryen

Lord Caron of the Marches

Ser Lyonel Baratheon

House Dondarrion (Manfred Dondarrion)

Otho Bracken

Quentyn Blackwood (MENTIONED)

MENTIONED COMPETITORS: Denys Marbrand, Joseth Mallister, Clarence Cargyll, Desmond Darry, Benifer Blackwood, Robert Blackwood, Roland Blackwood, Roger Blackwood, Ormond Westerling, Swann, Matthew Mullendore, Abelar Hightower, Alador Florent, Jon Florent, Franklyn Frey, Penrose, Samwell Stokeworth, Lord (Unkown) Parren, Gunthor Estermont, Leo Tyrell, Samwyle Tarly

Humfrey Hardyng

Aegon III (Mentioned)

Steely Pate

Plummer (Steward)

Lord Ashford (has 2 sons and a daughter)

Prince Baelor "Breakspear" Targaryen

Prince Aerion "Brightflame" Targaryen

Prince Valarr "The Young Prince" Targaryen

Prince Matarys "The Younger Prince" Targaryen (Nicknamed by Lord Swann's fool)

Ser Roland Crakehall (Kingsguard)

Ser Donnel of Duskendale (Kingsguard)

Henly (Master of Horses)

Steffon Fossoway

Raymun Fossoway

Symeon Star-Eyes noble Serwyn of the Mirror Shield, Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, Ser Ryam Redywne, and Florian the Fool (all fabled heroes portrayed in Tanselle Too-Tall's puppet show)

Prince Aerys Targaryen (Mentioned)

Prince Rhaegal Targaryen (Mentioned)

Prince Maekar Targaryen

Lord Stokeworth (Mentioned, Ser Arlan overthrew him)

The Bastard of Harrenhal (Mentioned, Ser Arlan overthrew him)

The Grey Lion, Ser Damon Lannister (Mentioned, Ser Arlan overthrew him, challenged Leo Tyrell)

Lord Baratheon hosted a tourney to celebrate the birth of his grandson (Where Ser Arlan broke 4 lances with Baelor Breakspear)

Jonquil (Subject of a puppet show, Florian the Fool's lover)

Tanselle "Too-Tall"

Tybolt Lannister

Lyonel Baratheon (called "THE LAUGHING STORM")

King Daeron the Good (Mentioned)

Wate and Yorkel (Aerion's guards)

Ser Willem Wylde

TOURNEY MATCHES: (winners are underlined)

there are 5 champions, Lord Tyrell, Androw Ashford, Lord Tully, Prince Valarr, and Robert Ashford. challengers face off champions. it is 1v1, however several matches occur at the same time. it is a joust and abides by the usual rules: you use lances to try and unhorse your opponent, and after unhorsed you can either yield or continue on foot with weapons. the loser gives their equipment to the winner, and can only ransom it back at the end of the tourney, the champions will decided if lord ashford's daughter should keep the crown of love and beauty.

champion v challenger:

THE GRAY LION OF CASTERLY ROCK V LORD TYRELL

TYBOLT LANNISTER V LORD ASHFORD'S ELDEST SON (ANDROW ASHFORD)

LORD TULLY OF RIVERRUN V SER HUMFREY HARDYNG

SER ABELAR HIGHTOWER V PRINCE VALARR

LORD LYONEL"THE LAUGHING STORM"BARATHEON V THE YOUNGER ASHFORD SON (ROBERT ASHFORD)

MEANING: TYBOLT LANNISTER AND THE LAUGHING STORM BECOME CHAMPIONS, THE REST OF THE CHAMPIONS REMAIN

-

SER PEARSE CARON V LORD TYRELL

SER JOSETH MALLISTER V SER HUMFREY HARDYNG

SER GAWEN SWANN V PRINCE VALARR TARGARYEN

MEANING: ALL CHAMPIONS REMAIN

-

UNNAMED MATCHES IN 2s, 3s, AND 5s

THESE SPECIFIC THINGS WERE CALLED OUT:

SER HUMFREY HARDYNG V SER HUMFREY BEESBURY

"BATTLE OF THE HUMFREY"

SER TYBOLT LANNISTER V SER JON PENROSE

LEO TYRELL V ROBYN RHYSLING

HUMFREY HARDYNG "HUMBLED 14 KNIGHTS"

-

single match:

PRINCE AERION BRIGHTFLAME V HUMFREY HARDYNG

TRIAL:

Judges: Prince Maekar, Prince Baelor, Lord Ashford, Lord Tyrell

(not needed because of the trial by combat)

-

Trial of the Seven:

dunk's side: (TOURNEY LANCES)

Raymun Fossoway

Robyn Rhysling

Humfrey Beesbury (Slain by Ser Donnel of Duskendale)

Humfrey Hardyng (Died after the battle)

Lyonel Baratheon / The Laughing Storm

Ser Duncan the Tall

Baelor Targaryen (Accidentally killed by his brother Maekar's mace, died after the battle)

aerion's side: (WAR LANCES)

Steffon Fossoway

Daeron Targaryen

Ser Roland Crakehall (Kingsguard)

Ser Donnel of Duskendale (Kingsguard)

Ser Willem Wylde (Kingsguard)

Maekar Targaryen

Aerion Targaryen

[alannybunnue]

Can I please request a fic where Lady Beesbury and Duncan meet while she’s still betrothed to Aerion?

Of course, my sweet summer child :3

Beware that some things might be triggering :)

->

She hated these events

Not Tourneys in general, just those where she had to be at the side of her betrothed, the mad prince, Aerion Targaryen.

Of course, some still don't know that he is a mad man, including her own father, Lord Beesbury, who was convinced he was the perfect match for his only child.

He was wrong, Aerion was a monster.

Always snobby of his Valyrian blood and how he was a Dragon in human form, in which is why he mostly mocked and insulted the Lady in multiple ways. He wasn't keen on this betrothal, for she was no blood of the dragon.

She had to watch him glamour himself during the challenge against Ser Humfrey Hardyng, kinda wishing Aerion would fail or, if she was lucky enough, killed. But life wasn't about what she wanted.

But there was another Knight who caught her attention, one carrying a shield with the sigil of a green shooting star above an elm tree proper on sunset - "an odd one indeed" - she thought to herself, giggling a bit.

Afterwards, she was one more time, beside the Prince, watching a puppet show performed by a lovely tall woman and her group, however, the story went to a length where Lady Beesbury knew that it wouldn't end well, seeing as Aerion's demeanor changes as soon as the dragon in the tale dies.

He screams, calls it "Treason", he destroys the puppets and attacks the puppeteers, the girl couldn't say a word, no one could stop him. But in the moment he broke the fingers of the poor woman, he was immediately attacked by someone else, that same knight from before.

He was arrested for attacking a royal, and due to the lies of both Aerion and Daeron, his drunken brother, he was also accused of kidnapping Prince Aegon, her betrothed demanded a trial of seven.

The little Lady watched and felt guilty over the situation, she didn't knew why, but either way, she knew he was innocent. She went to me one of her cousins, Ser Humfrey Beesbury and begged him to fight with Duncan, thankfully he agreed.

But a feeling that she should see the poor knight still haunted her. So soon she found herself in front of the place he was locked in before the Trial.

Duncan didn't expected someone to appear that night, especially this little Lady who he recalled by being beside Prince Aerion, she looked at him with pity, or so he believes.

"G-Greetings Sir..." - She stutters a bit, obviously trying to find the right words - "I wanted to apologize in behalf of my betrothed, Prince Aerion and..."

"Why?" - He asked, obviously confused of this woman's intentions with this, she was quiet for a moment, just as confused with his question - "Why are you doing this? Against your intended?"

She gulped. Lady Beesbury was no fool, it was obvious that she was risking herself there, only the Gods would know what Aerion would do if he discovered this, he would feel humiliated by her actions.

But she was not ignorant.

"I am not blind to injustice, Sir" - She responded, keeping her composure - "I saw the evil deeds of my intended, what he did to that puppeteer and what he is doing to you...it's unfair."

Duncan just watched, didn't speak a word, he can say that he was confused by the situation, maybe he admired the lady's words, although he couldn't judge whether they were true or not...

But there's was a weird feeling on him that was crawling at the back of his neck.

Noticing the weird silence in the room, Lady Beesbury finished off - "I wish you good fortune in the Trial, Sir Duncan."

The feeling started to grow.

Soon the Trial started, each side had their allies, the girl watched attentively, hoping for the best, mostly for the hedge knight.

Most of the knights at his side were terribly wounded, including her own cousin, but in the end, Duncan was able to make Aerion yield.

The lady was more than relieved.

Afterwards, Aerion was exiled for his false accusations and Duncan was free for all charges.

The young woman decided to see the knight before he leaves, she found him patching some of his wounds.

"Would you allow me to assist you, Sir Duncan?" - She asked, the man simply nodded, that was answered enough, she sat beside him and continued patching him.

He watched the lady attentively, more than before, now that she was closer, he could see every little detail in her features, her perfections and imperfections, which made that feeling grew stronger.

"Sir?" - She looked at him, making him return to reality instantly, and regaining his composure - "...I must give you my condolences for your cousin, milady" - He used the loss of Sir Beesbury to distract her from the elefant in the room.

"Sir Humphrey..." - She stopped to think of the right words one more time - "died fighting for an innocent and honourable man and for that i am glad to be his cousin, even if we weren't close, he brought honor to his name and the name of our house." - She said as she finished to care for Duncan.

The gentleness of her soft hands, the kind words that left her mouth, the warm expression in her features were driving the knight completely mad, he felt as if he had to consume her, right then and there, take her for himself and never let go.

By Gods, not even Tanselle made him feel this way.

And he didn't thought of it in the moment, as his body got closer to hers.

The lady was conflicted, once the knight quickly grabbed her by the waist and pull her lips to his, she has never felt this way, the hunger and despair coming from him was too obvious to be denied and she wasn't afraid of it.

But she never felt so desired before, it may be due to the months of humiliation coming from her intended, but this was wrong and she knew it.

But there's nothing she could do, the knight was stronger than her and...deep down she wanted to continue.

She wanted him to continue.

No matter the consequences.

[gotham-at-nightfall]

The Trial of Seven at Ashford Meadow!

The Hedge Knight #6

[butterflies-dragons]

In successive tilts, Ser Ryam unhorsed Ronnel Baratheon, Arthor Oakheart, Simon Dondarrion, Harys Hogg (Harry the Ham, to the commons), and two Kingsguard knights, Lorence Roxton, and Lucamore Strong. When the young gallant trotted up to the royal box and crowned Good Queen Alysanne as his queen of love and beauty, the commons roared their approval." What do you think about Ser Ryam Redwyne? Also names are similar to Joffery B, Arys Oakheart, Beric D, Harry the heir etc.

What do you think about Ser Ryam Redwyne?

It seems he was a great knight, the songs say so. But I don't think he was a good person.

Ser Ryam discovered that Ser Lucamore Strong broke his vows as a Kingsguard. Ser Lucamore married 3 different women in secret and fathered like a dozen children with them. Then Ser Ryam snitched Ser Lucamore, who was gelded and sent to the Night's Watch.

So basically Ser Ryam ruined not only the life of Ser Lucamore but also the lives of the 3 wives and the dozen of children.

Was Ser Ryam too honorable to remain silent? Was he jealous of Ser Lucamore having 3 wives? Did he think about the future of those 3 cheated women and their children? Was it worth to say the truth and got his fellow Kingsguard not only exiled but gelded?

My theory is that Ser Ryam was gay and in love with Ser Lucamore so since he was rejected, he got revenge over him.

I also think that Ser Ryam's replacement Criston Cole was also gay and at being rejected by Ser Harwin Strong, he got his revenged against him and Rhaenyra by starting the Dance of the Dragons. But that's just me and my conspiracy theories started by spurned suitors. So don't mind me.

Also names are similar to Joffery B, Arys Oakheart, Beric D, Harry the heir etc.

I think that by surrounding Alysanne with people from the same houses as the people around Sansa, GRRM was hinting at their parallels/similarities. He put those names around Alysanne to make us think about Sansa that was surrounded by people with the same or similar surnames.

He did that a lot in Fire & Blood, where we meet a character named Ser Joffrey Doggett, also known as the Red Dog of the Hills. He was a knight from House Doggett, a noble house from the westerlands, vassals of House Lannister. Ser Joffrey’s family was burned by Balerion the Black Dread.  The day of his coronation, Jaehaerys I Targaryen appointed Ser Joffrey a member of the Kingsguard. Much later, Ser Joffrey Doggett flew with Queen Alysanne on her dragon Silverwing. Ser Joffrey Doggett sounds like a combination of Joffrey Lannister and his sworn sword and later Kingsguard Sandor Clegane, the Hound. Both characters closely connected with Sansa Stark.

Good Queen Alysanne is also heavily associated with Maidenpool and the tales of Florian and Jonquil. Alysanne’s own love story with Jaehaerys is compared to Florian and Jonquil. Later Alysanne suffered an attempted murder perpetuated by three women at Maidenpool (A sad and twisted version of Jonquil bathing with her sisters in the pool). I find this incident a metaphor of that famous Littlefinger line: “Life is not a song, sweetling. You may learn that one day to your sorrow.” Maidenpool was a place where a great love story occurred but for Alysanne was also the place where other women tried to murder her. But this awful incident was the cause of Alysanne taking on a female knight to protect her as her sworn shield, with a very singular name, Jonquil Darke.

The slender mystery knight known only as the Serpent in Scarlet also had a great following; when finally defeated and unmasked, “he” proved to be a woman, Jonquil Darke, a bastard daughter of the Lord of Duskendale. — The Year of The three Brides—49 AC, Fire & Blood - Volume I

Jonquil Darke competed for a place in Jaehaerys’s Kingsguard, like Brienne did to get a place in Renly’s Rainbow Kingsguard. While Brienne succeeded, Jonquil Darke failed, but later Good Queen Alysanne chose her as her personal sworn shield.

But Jonquil Darke, Alysanne’s sworn shield, is not only connected with Brienne of Tarth, Sansa’s female sworn sword, but also with Dontos, Sansa’s false Florian, since both Jonquil and Dontos have their origins in Duskendale.

You can read more about Sansa and Good Queen Alysanne here.

GRRM did the same with Lady Ashford from "The Hedge Knight" tale and the champions of the Tourney at Ashford Meadow held in her honor. Lady Ashford and her champions parallel Sansa and her suitors:

The last five champions of the tourney that we know for certain are the five champions at the end of the first day:

Ser Tybolt Lannister, who defeated Ser Androw Ashford.

Ser Lyonel Baratheon, who defeated Ser Robert Ashford.

Lord Leo Tyrell

Ser Humfrey Hardyng

Prince Valarr Targaryen

Four out of five of these champions’ last names match with the last names of the men betrothed or already married to Sansa Stark:

Tyrion Lannister: Sansa Stark’s husband, a match arranged by Tywin Lannister.

Joffrey Baratheon: Sansa’s first betrothed, a match arranged by Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon.

Willas Tyrell: Sansa’s second betrothed, a match arranged by Olenna Tyrell.

Harry Hardyng: betrothed to Alayne Stone, a match arranged by Petyr Baelish and Anya Waynwood.

And there are more people involved in the Tourney at Ashford Meadow and other characters mentioned in "The Hedge Knight" tale that are from the same houses as the people around Sansa.

All these details are deliberate, not merely coincidental.

You can read more about Sansa and the Tourney at Ashford Meadow here.

Thanks for your message.

[fedonciadale]

How would you respond to detractors of the Ashford theory, specifically the argument that it can’t be true because there’s no representation for Robert Arryn? I run into that a lot. I personally don’t count Sweetrobin as a real suitor for Sansa simply because he’s far too young and if I recall correctly, the plan never went further than Lysa?

Hi there!

There is also no representation for Theon Greyjoy who at one point wanted to marry Sansa Stark, there is also no representation for several other men who play a part in Sansa’s storyline and have a ‘romantic’ interest in her.

The thing about parallels is that they are parallels, they run side by side, they are not identical....

I mean none of these guys from the Ashford theory align 100%

Joffrey Baratheon - Lyonel Baratheon

Joffrey is not a real Baratheon?

Willas/Loras Tyrell - Leo Tyrell

Who is it? Is it Loras, the one to whom Sansa would like to be married, is it Willas who she is supposed to marry, or is it Garlan, the one who is actualy nice to her?

Tybolt Lannister - Tyrion Lannister

Well, that’s straight enough....

Humfrey Hardyng - Harrold Hardyng

That’s straight enough as well.

And then Valarr Targaryen...

You could argue, that Robert Arryn wasn’t a real suitor, because he was too young, and because it was not a real betrothal, but to be honest neither was the betrothal to Willas, because it was just a plan (but at least a plan that went somewhat further than Lysa’s vague idea to marry Sweetrobin to Sansa)

As I said, it doesn’t need to be identical.

At the Ashford Tourney there is also no Dontos, no Littlefinger, no Marillion etc....

As I said, it doesn’t need to fit piece by piece, that is not how literature works...

So, that is what I would say...

Robert Arryn is not a suitor in the Ashford Tourney, but neither is Theon Greyjoy, Wymar Royce, Ser Dontos, the Hound, Littlefinger, Marillion,....

Not every person who has a romantic interest in Sansa, wants to marry her or who is a crush of Sansa’s needs to be in there for the parallel to work.

Thanks for the ask!

[shipperobsession]

Is Sansa going to marry a Targaryen?

There is a theory concerning Sansa in the books that really got me thinking.

It starts with a story in the Tales of Dunk and Egg that happens a hundred years before Sansa was even born, but be patient and bear with me.

In the story, Lord Ashford hosted a tournament and his daughter had 5 champions:

Lyonel Baratheon

Leo Tyrell

Tybolt Lannister

Humfrey Hardyng

Valarr Targaryen

Now, remember Sansa in the beginning of the story? She was promised to Joffrey Baratheon. Then, she almost married Willas Tyrell, but ended up actually marrying Tyrion Lannister. Now, she’s currently under Littlefinger’s wing as his bastard daughter, engaged to Harrold Hardyng.

Now, where is the last Targaryen man? Is it fAegon? Or maybe someone else? Jon Targaryen

What do you think of this theory? Is it just a coincidence or maybe GRRM has something in store for Sansa?

Image

[laannie0803]

El príncipe Aerion Targaryen, apodado Aerion Llamabrillante o Aerion el Monstruo, fue el segundo hijo del rey Maekar I Targaryen y Lady Dyanna Dayne. Su emblema personal era el dragón tricéfalo Targaryen de gules, con dos de las cabezas amarilla y naranja respectivamente, en campo de sable.

Aerion es uno de los ejemplos más representativos de la locura latente de la Casa Targaryen. Cruel y arrogante, pensaba que era un dragón en forma humana. De acuerdo a Raymun Fossoway, el príncipe era toda cortesía y sonrisas delante de su padre, pero mostraba su verdadera naturaleza y carácter delante del resto de personas.

Siendo jóvenes, en una ocasión arrojó al gato de su hermano Aegon a un pozo, lo que le valió el odio de éste. En otra, visitó a Aegon en su habitación durante la noche, poniéndole un cuchillo en sus partes íntimas y bromeando acerca de que podría hacerle convertir en una hermana con la que poder casarse.

En 209 d.C., Aerion viajó a Vado Ceniza para el torneo que se celebraba. Allí confundió Ser Duncan el Alto con un mozo de cuadras, ordenándole que se ocupara de su caballo. Aerion parecía a punto de desafiar a su primo Valarr Targaryen en una justa, pero finalmente se decantó por Ser Humfrey Hardyng. El príncipe Aegon, escudero de Duncan bajo la identidad de Egg, quería que Humfrey matara a Aerion. Aerion mantuvo baja su lanza y empaló al caballo de Humfrey, dejando a la montura morir en una dolorosa agonía, lo que Aegon consideró intencional. Tras este incidente, el prínciper Aerion fue descalificado, y Ser Humfrey acabó con la pierna rota al caérsele encima su propio caballo.

Aerion se sintió insultado por un espectáculo de titiriteros en el que se representaba la muerte de un dragón. Aerion atacó a los titiriteros, rompiendo los dedos de una chica llamada Tanselle y destruyendo las marionetas. Duncan fue arrestado tras golpear y patear al príncipe. Después de que el príncipe Baelor Targaryen le recordara a Duncan que podía solicitar un juicio por combate, Aerion solicitó un juicio de Siete. Aerion sobornó a Ser Steffon Fossoway, uno de los campeones iniciales de Duncan, con la posibilidad de conseguir un señorío, para unirse al bando de los acusadores. Uniéndose a Aerion, estaban su hermano Daeron, su padre el príncipe Maekar, y tres caballeros de la Guardia Real, Ser Willem Wylde, Ser Donnel del Valle Oscuro y Ser Roland Crakehall. El tío de Aerion, el príncipe Baelor, se unió al bando de Duncan.

Durante el juicio, Aerion cargó contra Duncan y lo sacó de su montura con un lucero del alba. Duncan se negó a ceder, y utilizó sus habilidades para derrotar al príncipe en un combate cuerpo a cuerpo. Duncan obligó a Aerion repetir que retiraba su acusación ante Lord Ashford, poniendo fin al juicio. Baelor Rompelanzas murió por las heridas recibidas en el transcurso del juicio de Siete. Tras terminar el torneo, su padre Maekar lo envió a Lys, donde se quedó por unos años. Es posible que haya engendrado algunos bastardos durante su estadía.

Durante su exilio se unió a los Segundos Hijos. Posteriormente regresó a Poniente en algún momento antes de 219 d.C., año en que estalló la Tercera Rebelión Fuegoscuro y en la que participó activamente.

En el 232 d.C. su prima y esposa, la princesa Daenora Targaryen, le dio un hijo, Maegor. Ese mismo año Aerion murió al beber una copa de fuego valyrio, creyendo que se transformaría en un dragón. Su hijo, aun muy pequeño, luego fue olvidado en asuntos de sucesión. Poseía un huevo de dragón con vetas doradas y plateadas.

Prince Aerion Targaryen, nicknamed Aerion Brightflame or Aerion the Monster, was the second son of King Maekar I Targaryen and Lady Dyanna Dayne. His personal emblem was the Gules Targaryen three-headed dragon, with two of the heads yellow and orange respectively, on the saber field.

Aerion is one of the most representative examples of the latent madness of House Targaryen. Cruel and arrogant, he thought he was a dragon in human form. According to Raymun Fossoway, the prince was all polite and smiles in front of his father, but he showed his true nature and character in front of other people.

When they were young, he once threw his brother Aegon's cat into a well, which earned him his hatred. In another, he visited Aegon in his room during the night, putting a knife to his private parts and joking that he could make him become a sister to marry.

In 209 AD, Aerion traveled to Ashford for the tournament that was being held. There he mistook Tall Ser Duncan for a groom, ordering him to take care of his horse. Aerion looked about to challenge his cousin Valarr Targaryen in a joust, but ultimately settled on Ser Humfrey Hardyng. Prince Aegon, Duncan's squire under the identity of Egg, wanted Humfrey to kill Aerion. Aerion kept his spear down and impaled Humfrey's horse, leaving the mount to die in painful agony, which Aegon deemed intentional. Following this incident, Prince Aerion was disqualified, and Ser Humfrey had his leg broken when his own horse fell on him.

Aerion was insulted by a puppeteer show depicting the death of a dragon. Aerion attacked the puppeteers, breaking the fingers of a girl named Tanselle and destroying the puppets. Duncan was arrested after hitting and kicking the prince. After Prince Baelor Targaryen reminded Duncan that he could request a trial by combat, Aerion requested a trial of Seven. Aerion bribed Ser Steffon Fossoway, one of Duncan's early champions, with the possibility of securing a lordship, to join the accusers' camp. Joining Aerion were his brother Daeron, his father Prince Maekar, and three knights of the Kingsguard, Ser Willem Wylde, Ser Donnel of the Dark Valley, and Ser Roland Crakehall. Aerion's uncle, Prince Baelor, joined Duncan's side.

During the trial, Aerion charged Duncan out of his mount with a morning star. Duncan refused to budge, and used his abilities to defeat the prince in hand-to-hand combat. Duncan forced Aerion to repeat that he was withdrawing his accusation from Lord Ashford, ending the trial. Baelor Spearbreaker died from wounds received in the course of Seven's trial. After finishing the tournament, his father Maekar sent him to Lys, where he stayed for a few years. You may have spawned some bastards during your stay.

During his exile he joined the Second Sons. He later returned to Westeros sometime before 219 AD, the year in which the Third Fuegoscuro Rebellion broke out and in which he actively participated.

In 232 A.D. his cousin and wife, Princess Daenora Targaryen, bore him a son, Maegor. That same year Aerion died while drinking a cup of Valyrian fire, believing that he would transform into a dragon. His son, still very young, was later forgotten in matters of succession. It possessed a dragon egg with golden and silver veins.

[eschercaine]

Tourney at Ashford Meadow Theory

Note: Screw the tv show (it sucks)… I’m denying it’s existence. The books are much better. The sources are ASOIAF wiki and A Forum of Ice and Fire.

–

The tourney at Ashford meadow or tourney at Ashford was a tourney hosted by House Ashford at Ashford Meadow in 209 AC. Due to accidental death of Prince Baelor Targaryen–the Prince of Dragonstone, son and heir of King Daeron II Targaryen, and Hand of the King–Ashford was one of the most famous and and historically significant tourneys.

History

Lord Ashford staged the tourney to celebrate his daughter’s thirteenth name day. His daughter was the queen of love and beauty and would have five champions to defend her honor. All other entrants were the challengers and if anyone defeated a champion, they would take their place as the new champion. After three days of jousting, the champions would determine if Lord Ashford’s daughter retained her title or if another would wear it.

The Joust

The original champions were:

Ser Androw Ashford

Ser Robert Ashford

Lord Leo Tyrell

Ser Humfrey Hardyng

Prince Valarr Targaryen

Then:

Ser Tybolt Lannister defeated Ser Androw Ashford (6 tilts)

Ser Lyonel Baratheon defeated Ser Robert Ashford (10 tilts)

Lord Leo Tyrell defeated Lord Damon Lannister (3 tilts)

Ser Humfrey Hardyng defeated Lord Medgar Tully (2 tilts)

Prince Valarr Targaryen defeated Ser Abelar Hightower (2 tilts)

Lord Leo Tyrell defeated Lord Pearse Caron

Ser Humfrey Hardyng defeated Ser Joseth Mallister

Prince Valarr Targaryen defeated Lord Gawen Swann (2 tilts)

Ser Tybolt Lannister defeated Ser Jon Penrose

Lord Leo Tyrell defeated Ser Robyn Rhysling (4 tilts)

Ser Humfrey Hardyng defeated Ser Humfrey Beesbury (13 tilts)

Ser Humfrey Hardyng defeated Prince Aerion Targaryen (by forfeit)

Prince Valarr Targaryen won seven more times

So, the remaining five champions were:

Ser Lyonel Baratheon

Lord Leo Tyrell

Ser Tybolt Lannister

Ser Humfrey Hardyng

Prince Valarr Targaryen

–

Baratheon, Tyrell, Lannister, Hardyng and Targaryen were the five remaining champions for a 13 year old Lady Ashford.

Seems familiar?

When you look at the names of the champions’ families and the fact that they were fighting for a 13 year old lady, we can see that they correspond with Sansa Stark’s suitors in ASoIaF.

Sansa was first betrothed to Joffrey Baratheon (despite having no Baratheon blood in him, because his real father is Jaime Lannister, he is named Baratheon because he is raised under his known father King Robert Baratheon his entire life)

Sansa is then planned to be wed to Willas Tyrell

Sansa is married to Tyrion Lannister

Currently, Sansa (under the guise of Alayne Stone) is now being betrothed to Harry Hardyng

We can say that this is a foreshadowing of Sansa’s future suitors/husband in The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring (if there will be any). But there is one suitor we haven’t seen yet… a Targaryen suitor (foreshadowed by Prince Valarr Targaryen).

If Harry Hardyng will die in TWOW (and I wish he should be)… all that’s left for Sansa her future Targaryen suitor.

–

About the Targayen suitor, there are two cases for it. First, is Aegon VI Targaryen, Rhaegar and Elia’s son. In The Winds of Winter, he has already the Martells on his side, captured Storm’s End, the Golden Company who sworn to Aegon still has friends in the Reach (which courting Margaery is unnecessary), and he and Connington have abandoned hope of Daenerys joining them and have already begun plotting to conquer Westeros. If he managed to conquer the 4 kingdoms, the one left are the North, the Riverlands, and the Vale and Sansa Stark is the perfect choice for him since she’s the known heir to Winterfell, niece of Edmure Tully, and currently betrothed to the heir of the Vale.

Even if you say that Aegon VI is a fake or he is Blackfyre, IT DOESN’T MATTER. What matters is the family name of the suitor. Since Aegon (Young Griffin) is called a Targaryen by Connington, Varys, Tyrion, etc., he would be considered a Targaryen, even if he is a fake.

Next is, dun dun dun… Jon Snow. IF (and only IF) Aegon VI is revealed to be fake and R+L=J, that makes Jon Snow a the remaining Targaryen heir (I doubt that Daenerys will ever come). IF Jon Snow is resurrected (and I hoped he will be) in TWOW and Robb Stark’s will would reach him, then, he will be legitimized as Jon Stark, King in the North, and unknowingly, son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark and heir to the Iron Throne.

 So… who do you think is Sansa Stark’s “Targaryen” suitor? Aegon VI (Young Griff) or Jon Snow?

[istumpysk]

When antis say the Ashford theory doesn't work because of Robert Arryn 🤦 no one said it has to be exactly the same lmao. And most importantly its because Sansa herself does not acknowledge/accept the betrothal like she does with Joffrey, Willas, Tyrion and Harry.

Oh, you silly jonsa.

Just because it's a celebration of Lord Ashford's daughter's thirteenth name day, doesn't mean that's an allusion to Sansa, okay?

And just because the name Lyonel Baratheon means Lion Baratheon in Latin, doesn't imply any connection to Joffrey, okay?

And just because Willas Tyrell was injured in a tournament, because his father hoped he would become the next Leo Longthorn, doesn't mean there's any association between the two, okay?

And just because the maiden's brothers were defeated by Lion Baratheon and Ty... bolt Lannister, doesn't mean there's any similarities to Sansa's storyline, okay?

And just because Harrold Hardyng is destined to meet the exact same fate as the only other Hardyng in the story, Humfrey Hardyng, doesn't mean that can't be a coincidence, okay?

And just because Valarr Targaryen is described as a dark-haired, slim prince, and referred to as the "black prince with the white guardian," doesn't suggest any link to Ghost and Jon, okay?

What about the fact that Lord Ashford's daughter is never noted as having red hair? Why is she never shown sewing? How come she doesn't have a wolf? Why is her name not Tansa?

Seems to me like this theory has a ton of inconsistencies.

[mischeviouslittleelf]

Ser Humfrey Beesbury would break twelve lances against his brother in arms, Ser Humfrey Hardyng, proclaimed as paragons both of the knightley virtues. They would both perish in the service of honor #dailyart #bee #characterart #armor #digitalpainting #digitalart #sketch #procreate https://www.instagram.com/p/BxSU_FoHH3c/?utm_source=ig_tumblr_share&igshid=12nt5eal1z4ht

[yvvaine]

everything asoiaf ♕ theories || The Ashford Tourney Theory

In the Hedge Knight, A tourney is held at Ashford to celebrate Lord Ashford’s daughter’s (the queen of love and beauty) 13th name day. In the end, the 5 champions who end up defending Lady Ashford are:

Lyonel Baratheon

Leo Tyrell

Tybolt Lannister

Humfrey Hardyng

Prince Valarr Targaryen

When you look at the names of the champions' families, and the fact they fight for a 13 year old maid, especially with the family Hardyng, we find out that they correspond strongly with Sansa's suitors.

Sansa's first betrothed to Joffrey Baratheon

Sansa's then planned to be wed to Willas Tyrell

Sansa's married to Tyrion Lannister

Sansa's now being betrothed to Harry Hardyng

An unknown Targaryen suitor (?)

[occupyvenus]

One point (plus some extra ones) on the Ashford theory and Jonsa

At this point most people will already have heard about this little theory, but let me recap the main points: In the novel “The Hedge knight”, the first book of “The Tales of Dunk and Egg” our two title characters are present for the tourney hold by Lord Ashford for his daughters name day. The tourney starts with five champions that would/could each be replaced by a man who defeats them in the joust. We only know about the final champions of the first day, since our POV character is in the dungeons during the second and the tournament is prematurely ended. The last constellation of champions we know about looks like this: 

Lyonel Baratheon

Leo Tyrell

Tybolt Lannister

Humfrey Hardyng

Valarr Targaryen

Which shows an eerie resemblance to Sansa’s suitors so far: 

Joffrey Baratheon

Willas Tyrell

Tyrion Lannister

Harry Hardyng 

??? Targaryen ???

Prompting the idea that Sansa might be betrothed to a Targaryen next. As every reputable asoiaf-fan will tell you, this might mean nothing at all (because getting 4 out of 5 right is a very, very low rate of correlation, those are puny 80% and the inclusion of the rather unimportant house Hardyng just ... doesn’t mean anything. That’s .. just a coincidence. And Grrm really isn’t the kind of author who thinks things through.) or that it might point towards Sansa being betrothed to Young Griff Aegon Targaryen next (In which case, 4/5 seems to be a reasonable amount of similarity). But in no way could it be Jon because, as with everything Jonsa-related, people are bending over backwards (their poor spines) to come up with reasons why this this can’t  p o s s i b l y  be a hint at the delulu ship. Basically, as long as you are talking about Young Griff it’s a nice, interesting theory, but if you try to apply it to Jon, it suddenly becomes the crackiest crack out there. Of course, makes sense. 

The most common argument goes something like this: “What matters is the surname they are known as. Duh. Joffrey counts as the Baratheon even though he’s a Lannister. Duh. Or rather a Waters or a Hill. Duh. And Jon would count as s a Snow. Duh. Not a Targaryen. Duh. It’s not about their secret, real name. Duh. But the one they go by. Duh. If it even means anything, it has to be Aegon-fAegon Targaryen. Duh. Who just like Joffrey, is known as a Targaryen even though he’s probably not really one. Duh. It’s Valarr Targaryen, not Valarr Snow. Duuuuuh #reaching LOL”

I assume that this counterargument makes sense if you deliberately choose any framework that excludes Jon. You can of course work with an arbitrary “What are they called when Sansa first met them?” or “What are they called for the most part of the series?” or “What kind of variation of their last names best suits me to eliminate Jon as an option?” but “What are they called when they were promised to marry Sansa?” strikes me as the more logical possibility. Since it is, after all, .. about that very thing.

So let’s look at who Sansa actually gets betrothed/married to ... She is promised to Joffrey “Baratheon” (even though he isn’t actually one), to Willas Tyrell, Tyrion Lannister, Harrold “Hardyng” (even though he’s supposed to take on the name Arryn once he ascends as Lord of the Vale) and since Sansa wouldn’t get engaged/married to her supposed half-brother Jon Snow, but to her cousin Jon (or whatever) Targaryen ... I would say it fits the pattern just fine. It fits perfectly even. This interpretation also eliminates any issues that come with Joffrey being the “Baratheon” champion and since at least three out of five names do indeed fit perfectly without question, I really see no reason to try extra hard to discredit it. She wasn’t betrothed to Joffrey Waters or Hills or Lannister, but to Joffrey ... Baratheon. Just as she wouldn’t be betrothed to Jon Snow or Stark, but Targaryen. 

We can’t be completely sure whether or not Jon’s birth name will also be “Targaryen” in the books as it is in the show, or whether he will actually use the name but there is a good chance that it is and that he will in some form, so the possibility remains. And since none of us knows with absolute certainty what’s going to happen we are all just working with possibilities here. And since the show has confirmed R+L=J and had him be a trueborn Targaryen, I do think we have a good shot at things looking similar in the books. Not exactly, but pretty similar. 

Extra point one: The one instance where the ashford champions and Sansa’s suitors don’t seem to match is the absence of an Arryn-champion. Lysa also intended to marry Sansa to Robert Arryn so ... why doesn’t that match? Well, one could say that this debunks the entire theory, that they don’t have to match perfectly, that 5 out of 6 (or at least 4 out of 5 at this point) is good enough, but there is one detail that sets Robert apart from the other suitors: He never actually knew about the betrothal. Joffrey knew, Tyrion knew, we can safely assume that Willas knew, Harry knows ... but Robert was never told about it. He can’t be a champion if he never even knew that he was in the race. In all other cases both parties were aware of the engagement. In this case, one was not. 

Extra point two: None of those champions would become “the” champion since they were supposed to choose the queen of love and beauty together and since the tourney was ended ahead of time, we don’t know if they would have been the final champions anyway but ... isn’t it still a peculiar coincidence that the last five champions we know about ... match Sansa’s suitors so nicely? Could it be coincidental? Well, yeah. That’s the thing with interpreting potential foreshadowing before a series is finished. You can never be 100% sure whether or not something is intentional or not. But it seems to me that nothing is seen as a mere coincidence when it comes to Grrm unless it could be used in any way to support Jonsa. Then it suddenly is. Must be. Indisputably. Just a fun little observation I found was worth mentioning. 

Extra point three: While the arguments “the tourney was never finished so Sansa would never actually marry and stay married to any of the champions” and “the five champions were equal in status, there wasn’t one “winner”, so all of Sansa’s suitors will have the same “status” with none of them being “endgame”” are the most logical that are brought up in this discussion, I would also like to point out that the exact nature of Sansa’s relationship with the five suitors haven’t been too consistent either. Not all of them were simple betrothals since she did end up marrying Tyrion (even if the marriage was unconsummated and will most likely be annulled). Sansa’s betrothal to Willas is never official, only a secret plot between her and the Tyrells. The one to Harry is technically arranged between him and Alayne Stone and differs from the others in that aspect. We also don’t really know how that will move forward yet either. Her engagement to Joffrey however was official, agreed upon by both her and his father. There is some variation, you see. One was only a promise, one an official betrothal, one went as far as the actual wedding and we don’t really know how her engagement to Harry will develop. I’m only going to speculate that it will no end with a happily ever after for various reasons that I don’t want to get into here. Also, if we assume that Sansa will go through all five ... at least the first four kind of do have to be cancelled in one way or another because she simply can’t marry more than one guy at a time. All five simply can’t be #endgame. This does not prove that the last one will be, but neither does it prove the opposite. If the previous four wouldn’t have ended at some point ... there wouldn’t even be more than one. She can’t end up being married to all of them and I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume that the last one might break this pattern because it’s literally the only one that could break this pattern. She can’t end up with number two if there are still three betrothals waiting to happen. And since the five champions were fighting simultaneously, while Sansa’s betrothals happen one at a time ... the pattern isn’t exactly the same anyway. The five champions can all be champions at once but not all five suitors can be engaged/married to her at the same time. Just doesn’t work. 

Does this mean that Jon will be the last champion to 100%? Does that mean that it will be endgame to 100%? Or that the Ashford theory even has any connection to Sansa’s suitors/fiancees/husbands at all to 100%? No, of course not. But I’m tired of seeing the possibility dismissed with flawed arguments that only make sense if you go out of your way to reassure your own bias. 

[gotham-at-nightfall]

The Hedge Knight #3