#grrm let there be jonsa

[lemonhemlock]

Who do you think should sit on the spiky chair (AKA the Iron Throne) at the end of ASOIAF?

Who do *I* think should? Team Jonsa all the way, baby. ✌

[bookjonsadaily]

can you recommend some book jonsa fanfics? Not really that many on going in ao3

Hey anon!!!

Here are some more recs for you!!

the first are from nepobabyeurydice:

if you try to break me you will bleed by @dialux

time travel fic with Sansa, but it’s always the first fic I recommend to friends because the development of Jon and Sansa’s relationship from her holding all the cards, to him swearing herself to her, and then Sansa letting him see the whole deck is genuinely beautiful to read!

love exists in many forms by @dialux

In which Alayne Arryn, only daughter of Jon Arryn, commits suicide after her father dies in a failed attempt at rebellion, and her handmaiden, Sansa Stone, pretends to be her when faced with death. Sansa arrives at King’s Landing and finds herself betrothed to Prince Jon Targaryen; but their relationship is complicated by old secrets, new loves, and treason.

my head is bloody and unbowed by sadhippe

In which Robb’s baby survives, Sansa never marries Ramsay, and Jon is held captive at Dragonstone. Also more Tully’s and other Northern Conspiracy Faves!

and recs from visenyashill, who is going to do one of longer fic when they have the time and energy to actually read fic in a little bit, so these are mostly one shots-

in the midst of the ruins by iday

jonsa fic, post war for the dawn. while living out his days out of sight and out of mind, jon gets a raven from winterfell with only two words: "come home." so he does. brienne and podrick are also there. very cute, contained little story, and an older jonsa fic.

varg-hamr/wolfskin by undercovercaptain

this one gets rec-ed a lot but for good reason! a take on jon's ressurection and sansa as the girl in gray that i think is well done and also roughly what i predict will happen (leaving room for some crazy grrm-ness tho, obviously)

saw you in the snow by sleepingwithwolves

another girl in gray esque take but with bran coming to sansa in a weirwood dream as well as jon. i love this one a lot, i you will see i have a weakness for jonsa fic that features another starkling.

no smooth road by maybethrice

rickon pov where jon and sansa recall him from hiding on skagos when he’s twelve, to be the new lord of winterfell. it’s a “dany stops the long night” canon and i like it for delving into the difficult tie of the political situation.

ghosts by sansawolfbits

jon travels to the vale to meet with the lord protector and finds someone he didn't expect. very short but cute also myranda cameo.

i lost all signs so i got lost by tempisfugit

The five people who wanted Sansa for who she reminded them of and the one who just wanted her.

stealing by just_a_dram

jon steals sansa. this is the first jonsa fic i ever read and this author was super prolific with book canon jonsa in like....2016? ish? so if you're looking for book canon stuff, I would definitely start here!

a boy in his cups by greenhikingboots

a re-imagining of jon's first chapter in agot where he knows the truth of who he is and drunkenly proposes to sansa.

a stark in winterfell

it's not super romantic, more tortured than anything, about sansa needing an heir and seducing jon snow - and neither of them know about his true parentage.

[atopvisenyashill]

I think GRRM should just post the winds of winter on ao3 but not say anything because there's a big chance a lot of people would read it and then criticise the author for how unrealistic the plot is and how GRRM himself would never

PLEASE ALSDJFLKASDF if he needs feedback on how to keep the plot going THIS IS HOW. just turn on anonymous commenting and start posting under an anonymous account george!! you don't have to read any other fanfic, just let the comments swarm you so you can get unstuck from whatever part you're stuck on. INTERACT WITH THE TARG NATION FREAKS GEORGE. LET THE JONSA GIRLIES GO CRAZY IN YOUR INBOX. I NEED A BRAIME/TWINCEST FLAME WAR GOING ON PLEASE.

[pixiecactus]

because i just saw a post related in the tag and some discourse in other site (how did you guess it was quora)... did you know that this arya quote:

A thousand years ago, she had known a girl who loved lemon cakes. No, that was not me, that was only Arya

is about our lord and saviour sansa stark? if you don't believe it, or if you do, because how dares someone like arya like a dessert full of patriarchal femininity like lemon cakes too, you can found more about this in the new edition of the asoiaf books: asosas "a song of sansa and sansa" because what do you mean grrm has done interviews naming his favourites characters and sansa is not even mentioned once, i don't see it, i don't hear it. everything grrm writes is about sansa, did you know young grrm looked like kit harington when he was young, what do you mean kit harington's jon snow portrayal is not at all like the books description, of course it is, and grrm and kh both married a red headed woman, that is foreshadowing, let me show you all of my metas that's all based on jonsa fics and not in the books. all hail the red wolf of winterfell... what do you mean that this sobriquet is not even in the books? what do you mean that the animal comparison sansa get in the books is a bird? no no no she's all direwolf, the most "stark" of them all, the rest of her siblings will die and get stuck inside their wolves to finally give queen sansa the wolf pack she always deserved and was born to command. ps: talking about the fact that sansa is a lannister by marriage, and robb disinherited her in his will for this same fact, and also currently wanted by the crown for regicide is plain old misogyny... do you truly hate girls winning that much?

(this is h e a v y sarcarsm ofc, salt if you will. i do think i need it to clarify because sansa stans are definitely not known for their media analysis abilities)

[alaynestcnes]

“evidence upon evidence upon evidence” and it’s just chapter order and stuff like “oh jonnel is definitely the same as jon” (which is basically saying alysanne is the same as alys) or val being blonde means she could be redheaded in certain lights. it’s still all a REACH so no evidence for romance

Looks like you have some gaps in your jonsa knowledge so I’ll help you out a little 😊

A good place to start would be the jonsa compendium with at least 18 points of independent in-text evidence (not including the broader fun stuff like lotr lit parallels). We can also talk about the multiple allusions to Sansa being betrothed to a Targ (not including the ashford tourney theory already included in the compendium); here, here. Some other little tidbots I enjoy (a la 'blood of winterfell', jon/joff parallels, little in-text parallels, and too many others to mention) are in my parallels tag.

There are the BNFs/theorists who have speculated on jonsa; Alt Shift X and Adam Feldman have both found Jonsa to be significant enough to mention. They’ve been invited to have dinner with GRRM, and he has said Adam Feldman ‘really gets’ asoiaf. So, I kinda hold these theorists as just a bit more credible than whatever the twitter/reddit stans have to say.

And I know you brushed off the chapter analysis but let’s remember that GRRM has said that he is very particular about the sequence of scenes and chapters. So, it’s not absurd to say that the construction of the chapters is something that we should be paying attention to. Ignoring that is fine but don’t pretend like it’s Jonsas reaching, when it’s just your own blind bullheadedness. That being said, here’s an almost never-ending post analysing the in-text Jonsa parallels and references. And a literal excel sheet providing And then here there's how whenever Jon or Sansa's chapters have a focus on love and marriage, then the other will almost always closely follow.

That's my little english lit seminar done, but I hope you're not too tired bc we've still got our AP hisory and political science class to go! GRRM has stated before that class is important (especially in relation to marriage) and he hates medieval-set stories where the highborn lady happily runs off with the stableboy. So, it's safe to say that Sansa will not be marrying any old glup shitto the fandom wants to pair her with. Her range of suitors is very, very limited. "Jonnel is definetly the same as Jon"...well, if the shoe fits? Like it just lines up too well, it's just a bit cheeky of GRRM to sow issues of northern succession in ASOIAF, all while providing a precedent for an inter-Stark union as a solution to a very similar issue. You could also make the case that Jonnel/Sansa is more of a foil for Jon/Sansa than a direct parallel (as instead of Jon marrying Sansa to supercede her claim, Sansa will choose to marry Jon in order to secure his position after Targ reveal). And really, is this anymore delulu than something like the Jon/Tyrion/Dany three heads of the dragon theories you see around?

Anywaysss this is just a fast and loose run down and better people than me have developed more comprehensive archives of the ever-extending jonsa meta universe, so please supplement your learning with some independent study: here, here, here.

So yeah…the evidence is a little bit deeper than Jon/Jonnel or Val/Sansa. I’m not trying to preach but calling Jonsa out on a lack of evidence or that we’re reaching for anything is giving very much illiterate on your side. If you wanna come into my ask and be a hater again pleassseeee at least do your research first. Next time there will be a quiz before I take anything you say seriously.

[catofoldstones]

The thing about arya fans' argument that arya comes before sansa in the line of succession because robb disinherited her because of her forced marriage is the underlying misogyny and victim blaming of it, and their assumption that grrm thinks the same. We don't have jon [you know the actual person robb chose over sansa, and i think its time we start talking that the will specifically was about sansa and jon and that shit means something narratively] asserting that winterfell belongs to sansa despite everything and him not falling to the bait of stannis calling her a lannister, to just assume that according to grrm what robb did was OK. If people actually think grrm wants to show robb was right and girls truly are not important and thus his disinheritance of his sister's rights will be upheld, then they need their heads checked. Its not like he showed us that jaehaerys's sexism was what led to death of the dragons and downfall of targaryens even though grrm considers him a good ruler. Ultimately, catelyn will be validated when brienne saves either sansa or arya with oathkeeper and sansa will become lady of winterfell/qitn DESPITE robb's will. He [and arya fans] can suck it.

Hi soulmate anon,

Before we start, I have to let you know that one our previous posts was screenshotted and circulated in the arya stans circles because “we’re spreading our agenda on a neutral public platform” or something along those lines. Idk if you’ve seen that or not but I had to let you know before we go off kicking another hornet’s nest lol.

Anyway, that out of the way, to the Arya stans who are so hellbent upon removing Sansa from the Stark succession, Robb declared Jon as his heir, pushing Sansa further down the line (not disinheriting her jesus fuck) because through her Tyrion may lay claim to Winterfell, landing it in the hands of the Lannisters, exactly what Robb and Cat are trying to prevent. Robb didn’t “disinherit” Arya because he thought she was dead. Hope that helps.

WAIT!

the will being specifically about Jon and Sansa and that we need to start thinking about that narratively

SCREAM

Okay, I have now moved on (I have not). Though please feel free to talk about this more, I wanna know more. Guess I’ll now have to add jonsa tag to this answer hehe :P

I mean Robb did come from a place of “authority over the female members of his family” here with the will and that’s exactly the kind of thing we have to side eye. Taking it at face value and uncritically thinking about it is not a fair way to engage with the text I feel. You’re right when Jon himself reiterates Sansa’s claim over Winterfell, we are supposed to think twice whether Robb’s action was equitable or not. Stannis calls Sansa “Lady Lannister” to coax Jon into staking a claim over Winterfell so that Stannis gets a good reason to march to Winterfell and attack the Boltons (which he will anyway, but Jon’s, a member of the Stark family, support would mean political backing and reason). If we fall in the trap that Stannis thinks Sansa is now a Lannister, and therefore she is now a Lannister with no claim to Winterfell, then we’ve lost the plot and are coming from the same misogynistic hypocrisy (he wants Shireen on the throne if he dies but calls Sansa a Lannister, how does that work old man?) that destroys Westeros (your Jaehaerys example). And are no different from a crusty medieval era middle aged man btw.

It’s so fucking funny when the readers start emulating the same sexism that the author wants them to critique, and then start calling themselves feminists because they’re supporting a woman’s rights! Which woman’s rights besties? Because the one that clearly has them, you’re actively against her staking her claim. Wait till they read the books with their eyes open and realise that Arya comes at the end of the heirs to winterfell list, despite Sansa getting “disinherited” lmao. And I love Robb, he’s just a boy trying to do his best, but he truly made mistakes, especially with not listening to Catelyn. We also cannot deny the undercurrent of misogyny and chauvinism that Robb demonstrated with the will. Re Sansa’s rights and Jon’s decision to be with the Nights Watch. I will patiently wait for Catelyn to be validated and Sansa to be the Lady/QiTN not only because that subverts reader’s expectations and Westerosi patriarchal standards but because I want to see Sansa antis have a grand old meltdown.

[agentrouka-blog]

Hello, Rouka!

I was thinking "Wow, so much smut and explicit sexual content in the ASOIAF books so far" and then I had this:

There is a big chance we could have a Jonsa Smut Scene written by GRRM. Because we have to. We need it. If Pol!Jon or something like that happens between Jon and the Fav Queen in the books... there is no way we will have that and not Jon with his Sweet Lady! We had Ned and Cat mentions, more Jaime and Cersei than we want, some explicit... things we don't want to mention... We Must to clean our mind with the happy couple at the end of the story!

I'm not sure I would describe anything in the book series as "smut" in the sense of sex scenes meant to be erotic in nature. GRRM is writing sex scenes as another angle of character exploration and in most cases these scenes are intentionally off-putting in some way in order to break immersion and get the reader to focus on why things are happening as they are. That's why some people say GRRM is bad at writing sex scenes when really they are probably conditioned to expect sex scenes to be emotionally stimulating rather than analytically stimulating.

In this vein, it's entirely possible that GRRM will explore Jon and Sansa's relationship through how they approach sex with each other, same as he explored the characters in sexual contexts with other people (all abusive in their own way). But I doubt it would be "smutty" so much as insightful. I also doubt it would be terribly explicit because neither POV character is prone to describing sexual things without inhibition.

I'm not saying GRRM would write it to be off-putting, but we should really adjust our expectations. This won't be adult-rating AO3 content. This will be GRRM letting two teenagers who survived sexual abuse and trauma discover mutual love and sexual autonomy in an age appropriate (i.e. slightly awkward, possibly clumsy, nevertheless excited) way together. In brief glimpses and veiled descriptions. These are kids.

[sherlokiness]

let's say jonsa was really GRRM's ace,then what's up with jonerys in the show? Most people consider them the endgame romance with the bittersweet end which for the life of me cannot see where was the sweetness unless it was that boatsex.

How can jon dany ship exists with jonsa? How do you think it will go down in the books if jonerys was inevitable?

Hi, anon! Thanks for the ask.

Ref: This post.

Aegony is compatible with jonsa bc there is politicalJon. We just have to tweak some things but what we can be sure about 100% in the books is that Jon will betray Dany.

Why will jd break up in the books? Well, for sure it's not bc Jon is repulsed by incest with his aunt. There is no reason in Planetos for Jon to break up with Dany if he loved her bc of "incest" bc it's not really incest. See:Jonnel/Sansa. Aegony is not a forbidden romance!!!! They weren't raised together as a brother/sister for Jon to possibly get an ick.

Why not a love triangle? Jon is ice and fire so his lady loves are also ice and fire. Also if we count J and S, R and L, who have had secret weddings, there was always a scorned woman in the equation. Baela, Elia, and then Dany. The pattern will hold true for Jon and Sansa as well. JD never got married in the show bc there will be no reason for it to happen in the books. When will hell break loose? The rlj reveal. Dany who claims to be the righful heir of the 7k will never let Rhaegar's trueborn son go. She would want to marry him if silencing him doesn't work but Jon would refuse bc he secretly loves another.

She lights KL on fire. Jon kills her. It's good that Dany burns KL imo bc then Jon would have the moral high ground in getting rid of a tyrant. He gets "rewarded" by King Bran for his deed with Sansa's hand in marriage. Alas, it turns out that tyrant coincidentally was in the way of true love. I'm *sure* Jon will betray his auntie/lover bc of her threat to Sansa. Dany's last treason is FOR LOVE. If it's really for love of family like in the show, wouldn't the last treason be more accurate as FOR BLOOD? Jon's cousins are of his blood.

Jon will be a hero(righteous cause) and also get the girl. He gets to have his cake and eat it too. A bittersweet cake where the bitter part comes from Dany and the sweet part, well... In conclusion, Jon will have a justification for betraying D but his motivation would be questioned by the readers bc of the prophecy.

[greenhikingboots]

Jon’s Pre-Canon Crush

Okay, Jonsa fam. I’ve seen a lot of great posts, especially in the last few months, about Jon’s reactions to Val. Among them, there’s one particular vein I like to assume everyone loves as much as I do. That is, when Jon thinks of Val’s hair as silver vs. when he thinks of it as the color of dark honey. You’ve seen those metas, right? They explain the likelihood of Jon’s future connection to Dany being negative — The air tastes cold. / My tongue is too numb to tell. All I taste is cold. — while his future connection to Sansa will be positive — It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

Well, in this post I want to expand on the angle of Val-is-sometimes-a-stand-in-for-Sansa. Only, I don’t want to speculate on what will happen between Jon and Sansa in the future, if we ever get GRRM’s last two books. Enough people have already done that, and they’ve done it so wonderfully that I have little to add. Instead, as the title of this post says, I want to focus on Jon’s pre-canon crush. More specifically: I want to focus on what Jon’s thoughts and feelings about Val say about his thoughts and feelings about Sansa.

But let me lay some groundwork first, okay? Until a few weeks ago, I went back and forth on pre-canon crush theories. I agreed they held a lot of potential and were a lot of fun to daydream about — a great premise for a one-shot, to be sure! Oh, and I’ve always loved it when people said things like, “Hey, Jon, your Targaryen is showing.” That’s classic stuff. But did I really think GRRM meant to hint at prior feelings rather than just laying a foundation for future feelings? Again, until a few weeks ago, I wasn’t totally convinced either way. But now I am fully committed to the Pre-Canon Crush Camp, assigned to cabin Jon-Had-Feelings-for-Sansa. [Did Sansa have feelings for Jon too? Ummm maybe? I think there’s some evidence to support that, but not as much. But, hey, that’s not the point of this post. Sorry. Moving on.] So what changed? Well, basically some ideas I’d previously had sunk in on a deeper level. It started with this post from @sherlokiness. It talks about GRRM commenting on a discrepancy in the books, two occasions where Jeyne Westerling’s physical descriptions do not match up. GRRM said the discrepancies were a mistake, a really unfortunate one because it distracts from the times when he intentionally included discrepancies of physical appearances. And basically us Jonsas loved it. Like, “Yep! Make sense! We assumed as much already, Mr. Martin.” And that’s because of the canon line mentioned earlier, right? You know the whole thing, don’t you? Oh, but you want me to quote it here anyway? Okay, fine, I’ll oblige.

They [Ghost and Val] look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white [bleh, bleh, bleh] …but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

Direwolf. Lots of white. Suspicious ellipses. Blue eyes. Long braid the color of dark honey. Right, okay, got it.  [BTW. Did you know there’s also a point, early on, where Val’s described as having high cheekbones? You know, a feature Sansa has as well!?!?] Anyway, when I saw sherlokiness’s post about GRRM’s comments and the Jonsas relating it to that canon scene with Ghost and Val, I reblogged it. Naturally. And in the tags I said something like, “I’ll have to double check but I’m pretty sure the willowy creature line comes after this line. As in, maybe Jon knew exactly who Val reminded him in that moment and he was trying to talk himself out of his pre-canon crush coming back to the surface.” I’m paraphrasing here. My tags were probably not as clear as that. Also, I was being a bit facetious. It was a thought I’d had before, but just a passing one. Again (AGAIN! Do I say that too much?), I’d been going back and forth about pre-canon crush theories for a long time. But @agentrouka-blog saw my tags and was like, “You might be onto something there.” And then @zimshan saw my tags too and did the double check for me. Thanks! And guess what? GUESS WHAT, JONSA FAM!? I was right about the order. First, Jon sees Ghost and Val, thinks her eyes are blue and her hair is like dark honey, and it is a lovely sight. Second, this line:

Val looked the part [of a princess] and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.

But guess what else? The order isn’t even the most striking thing. The most striking thing is how closely these two lines appear to one another — within just a few pages!!! That's what zimshan said. So I went back to read it myself. Not just the two lines to check the order, but a little before, and a little after, and everything in between. If you want, you can do the same. It’s ADWD Jon XI.

Want to know what stuck out to me most? The willowy creature line actually seems… so odd, and out of place, and unnecessary. I swear to you. Let me try to explain.

Basically, by that point in the chapter, Jon has already clearly established his take on Val. She’s beautiful, everyone knows it, but she’s more than that. She’s strong and capable. She found Tormund and brought him back to Castle Black when Jon’s Night’s Watch Rangers couldn’t manage it. Like, Jon’s thankful for Val, okay? 

Oh, and he also seems aware that he holds her in higher regard than the rest of the men who keep calling her a princess even though she’s not one. I think he feels smug about it, to be honest. Like, he wouldn’t use these words because it’s ASOIAF, but he knows he’s a budding feminist and he’s proud of himself for it. Like, “I’m so much better than these asshats who don’t respect women and think all Val has to offer is her pretty face.”

How great is that? I love book Jon so much.

Where was I, though? Oh! Oh, oh, oh! This next part is key. Up until the willowy creature line, Jon has not had a single disparaging thought about Val. Val being cruel about Shireen’s greyscale hasn’t happened yet. But for some reason — *Getting too executed. Brain malfunctioning!*

AH! I SWEAR JONSA FAM! If you read the willowy creature in fuller context, it comes across as if Jon’s correcting himself for having a disparaging thought about Val, like he’s reminding himself of who she truly is. She’s a warrior princess, not a willowy creature. But like, why? Why does Jon feel the need to do this? He hasn’t had a disparaging thought about Val, so why correct himself as if he has?

Just because she’s beautiful? Just because he’s tired of other men calling her a princess? I mean, I guess that could be the whole story. That’s certainly how we’re supposed to take it, if we’re taking it at face value. But I’m not convinced. Go read it again, and I think you’ll see that when the willowy creature line happens, it actually feels like a weird logic leap.

The dots aren’t connecting because one dot is missing!!!! Let me put a pin in that for a moment while I turn to other mini metas in our Jonsa fandom. Antis like to say, “Jon doesn’t like girls like Sansa. He doesn't like willowy creatures, he said so himself.” But we know that’s crap, right? The boy who liked Ygritte’s gentle side? The boy who helps Alys Karstark by marrying her to Sigorn? The boy who dreamed his mother was a highborn lady with kind eyes? The boy who wanted to show his hypothetical wife Winterfell’s glass gardens and bath with her in the hot pools?

Yeah, that boy is a budding feminist, like I said.

So again I ask (AGAIN!) why would Jon — who is not especially critical of women in general and has not been critical of Val at all up to this point — feel the need to correct himself by thinking this critical thing about willowy creatures? In other words, why does he lift up Val by putting down some vague idea of other women he’s never had a problem with before?

Well, obviously it turns out that I believe my facetious, tongue in cheek tags more than I realized when I wrote them. My position is that somewhere in the two pages between ...a long while since Jon had seen a sight so lovely… and ...not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair… Jon realized Val reminded him of Sansa, he felt guilty and ashamed about it, and then felt the need to do damage control. And because guilt and shame are icky, confusing feelings, his damage control took the form of being critical of Sansa even though he isn’t normally critical of such women. 

Am I making sense? How do I explain myself further? Like, why am I so stuck on this idea Jon’s willowy creature line being two pages after the Ghost and Val looking lovely together line must mean Jon had a pre-canon crush?

I think the crux is what I said about the willowy creature line feeling like a weird logic leap — like the dots aren’t connecting because one is missing. The missing dot is Jon being aware that he’s mentally swapped Val with Sansa. He just doesn’t acknowledge this on the page.

Let me be extra clear. I’m now differing from several others who have written about pre-canon crush theories in that I think Jon was aware of his crush. I’ve seen many say it’s all subconscious. But this stuff with Val makes me think otherwise.

I mean, I know Jon has a pattern of dissociation. For him, thinking, and speaking, and acting from his subconsciousness is a common occurrence. So, yes, he could have subconsciously thought Val looked like Sansa and subconsciously felt guilty and ashamed and therefore subconsciously decided to do damage control by subconsciously reminding himself Val is a warrior princess and therefore not a willowy creature.

But I think GRRM was hinting at an exception to Jon’s pattern with these canon lines. Because if the first part is happening subconsciously — Jon thinking Val looks like Sansa and that it’s a lovely sight — then he wouldn’t feel the need to do damage control afterwards? If he wasn’t aware of thinking of Sansa in that moment, isn’t it more likely he’d just carry on with taking Val to meet Selyse, and the odd, out of place, unnecessary line about a willowy creature wouldn’t have been included? What else, what else?

I said earlier that I think Jon’s crush is an innocent, not sexual thing. Let me expand on that. And uuuuuhhhhh... let me clarify that I think that might be changing some over time.  My guess is when Jon was younger, his thoughts were more along these lines: “Sansa is pretty, and a proper lady, and everything men are taught to want. She’ll be a good wife for someone someday. Obviously not me. That’s sinful, I don’t want it, and I’m a bastard so I can’t marry a highborn lady anyway. But objectively, Sansa’s a good catch.” Which kinda matches how Jon thinks of Val at times, right? Like, she’s a catch but he doesn’t want her. He’s not taking Winterfell and a Wife because Winterfell belongs to Sansa and he’s a man of the Night’s Watch, dammit! But hang on a second. Sometimes Jon’s thoughts about Val are more elicit, aren’t they? He thinks about the size of her breasts and she’s the hypothetical wife he pictures romancing in Winterfell. Don’t worry, I’m not saying I’m secretly a Jon/Val shipper. What I’m getting at is this other thing we’ve talked about in the Jonsa fandom. Jone projects his general desires onto Val. He’s getting older. He’s unhappy at the Wall. Winterfell isn’t Robb’s like he thought it would be, and Bran and Rickon are thought to be dead. And Stannis is offering Winterfell and Val to him. Plus he’s now been intimate with a woman, Ygritte. So he knows that sex feels nice. All in all, Jon’s becoming more in tune with wanting Winterfell, and a wife, and a family, and wanting to fu—

You get the idea. ;)

Soooooo. If you buy into the premise that A) Jon considered Sansa a good catch when they were younger B) He’s thinking more and more about romance and sex C) Val is also a good catch and easy to project feelings onto and D) Woopsies, Val just reminded me of Sansa! Well, then where does all that leave Jon? Feeling like he needs to distance himself from positive thoughts about Sansa, right? But without ever thinking her name because of his pattern of dissociation and because GRRM is tricky like that.  Am I making my point clearer, or just talking in circles?  Like, I know plenty of people have already said Val is a switch-back-and-forth-stand-in-for-other-characters. The first two short paragraphs of this post mentions those metas.  But holy smokes! If Jon is aware of A-D mentioned above, that adds a fascinating layer of subtext to his scenes with and thoughts about Val.  Let’s talk about it forever!

Just kidding. I think I’m almost done here.  Basically, I think the willowy creature line is Jon knowingly saying to himself, “Yikes, the thoughts I had about Sansa in the past didn’t bother me much because they were 99% innocent. But they are less innocent now and that’s a problem! You can’t like Sansa! Don’t confuse Sansa with Val,  dummy! Val is a warrior princess! Sansa is a willowy creature and willowy creatures are bad!”

Okay, sure, Jon.  Let me wrap up with one more canon line.

Of Sansa brushing out Lady’s coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow.

We often link this line to Ygritte for obvious reasons, but I’m now in the habit of linking it more to Val and the canon lines mentioned previously. I think GRRM wrote a the three lines — a sight so lovely + willow creature + of Sansa brushing out Lady’s coat — as a subtle continuation of one another. Us Jonsas saw the potential for underlying romantic feelings in the last one, that’s nothing new. But I want to add that it’s a direct contrast to the willowy creature line. As Jon is bleeding out, he can no longer be bothered to put up a front and pretend he doesn’t have feelings for Sansa, feelings that have gotten more complicated as of late.

Oh so subtle. Really not that much different than what others have said before me. But different enough I wanted to mention it. Now someone put it in a fanfic!!

[kellyvela]

I'm unable to fathom the logic of J0nrya shippers. I recently got into a twitter altercation with a couple of accounts and oh my god, I totally forgot how terrible they are ! I have all of them blocked on here but they must be on twitter as well, I even recognised some of the users. It's just awful energy all around; all of them despise Sansa, no matter what she says and does. And they are SO weirdly possessive of Jon. They claim that WE treat Jon as some trophy husband when it is actually them who are guilty of that! They even hate it when people make simple Sansa/Ned parallels because apparently Ned belongs to A as well? Never mind that Ned is also Sansa's father...smh.

Their copium is very loud and obnoxious. I wonder how they felt when GRRM straight up debunked the ship at Balticon. Calling J/A relationship by all accounts, quite simple - that the fans have given it more thought than he has etc. I would have just packed up and left after that and accepted it wasn't going to become canon. But alas, they get even louder than how they were before. Do they understand how weird they sound. They sexualise A so much and want her to become a courtesan and get her period. It's very obvious A is not going to be the love interest because GRRM has done everything in his willpower to portray A as a prepubescent child. But he has done the opposite with Sansa; He's made her tall, full-breasted, acting as a mother to a child, basically running the household in the Eyrie etc. sometimes I forget she's meant to be 13...

We all know that when someone is on the right track, GRRM will respond cryptically and give a short, sweet answer. He rambled when it came to j0nrya, that's not a good sign for the canon basis of their ship, especially when they have the nerve to call Jonsas delusional.

The truth is, I wouldn't still be here fully believing in the inevitability of Jonsa if GRRM debunked it in the same manner he did w J/A. When that Alexandragenesis person asked him about it back in 2018 and GRRM just responded with "not going to tell anymore than I already have" I knew that we were on the right track. If GRRM flat out ignored the question or responded with a simple "not the direction I'm going in" since he had no issue debunking another theory on that same chat...if I remember correctly, well I'd have left and accepted I just misinterpreted the text and saw romance where it wasn't meant to be. I'd still read fanfic about them and enjoy them in a fanon way, and I still believe all the brilliant metas hold merit, no matter if they're meant to be interpreted as romantic by the author.

But j0nrya's didn't let go of their stance and just cracked down harder on jonsas. I'm embarrassed for them. I don't care if they ship it in fanon, if they just enjoy it as a pairing and have accepted it won't become canon based on the author's blatant dismissal of any romance between them - but the way they have behaved in this fandom is really really childish and frankly, irritating. They actually dominate reddit as well, surprisingly. There's quite a few popular Redditors on there who get lots of upvotes and who are also big A/J0nrya bloggers on here. And sometimes there are posts about Queen A/J0nrya which is met with 0 criticism by the community. There's healthy discussions which receives heaps of upvotes and everything. But it's the opposite situation with queen sansa and Jonsa. Little to no upvotes and harsh criticism.

Are these people selectively blind? Is this fandom completely unable to understand subtext and implicit clues/foreshadowing? Do they get how fiction works? Do they get the different literary influences that inspired GRRM to write ASOIAF? His past works? His favourite authors? The themes of his series? The importance of omission? Unreliable narrators? Dramatic irony? Have these people never studied a text before and been made to pick apart imagery, sentences, parallels etc?

I'm just baffled by this fandom having such a surface level reading of the text. "BUT JONSA COULDN'T HAPPEN BECAUSE THEY RARELY THINK OF EACH OTHER!!" If they took the time to read our metas they'd actually realise... that works in our favour...the distance supports our theories...that's exactly what we are pointing out lmao. I'm utterly convinced that if Jon was mussing Sansa's hair and thinking of her as his little sister constantly that Jonsa would hold a lot more merit.

I mean, even just the implication that GRRM's response to Jonsa was clearly 'fan service catering' is so fucking disingenuous I have to laugh. Why would GRRM feel the need to appeal to such an incredibly niche fanbase and tell them what they want to hear when majority of the fandom wants Jon and D*ny to have sex and save the world together. And when you compare how GRRM responded to Jonsa vs how he has responded to R + L = J, it's so obvious that Jonsas are actually the ones who are making sound predictions. There's a reason a lot of us correctly predicted major beats in the show while the rest of the fandom were foaming at the mouth over Sansa being killed by one of her family members, queen d*ny, and the curtain of light theory ....

My Twitter account is locked for a reason. Somehow they always find you only to attack you.

Anyway, fave sister stans and fave sister/jon shippers are a funny bunch lmao I mean only them can write metas about fave sister being Lady of Winterfell *by proxy*, or that "official" Asoiaf fanart *confirms* that fave sister is the most beautiful human being on earth, or that fave sister and aunty wearing baby pearls means that they are the epitome of fertility and motherhood, despite them both hating those attires and quickly changing on masculine clothes 🤪 And I won't mention the training with a courtesan because that's sick 💀

I won't fight them on fave sister being jon's fave sister, that relationship can stay like that lol

I won't fight them on fave sister being Ned's fave daughter, that we can't change and there's reasons that vastly explain that.

They simply decided to ignore BALTICON, and they also do the same that cujo shippers do, they made up a narrative where GRRM knowing that they "rightly discovered" that their fave romance is *canon*, tried to mislead the readers to keep the susrprise factor when their ships happen . . . . ahxvasdhbshfbdfjsbdmjwd.alsdshadb

Did youk know that the Alexandragenesis was probably a hater from reddit trying to get GRRM debunking Jon/Sansa? Alexandragenesis is some fake disorder that gives you violet eyes born in the internet, so that name was targ coded. Also, after GRRM didn't give them the answer they were seeking they started to attack fave sister in favor of Sansa, so that person was definitely a Sansa hater/targie/fave sister stan failing as always lol

I think they read our metas and feel really dumb after that but they will never admit it, at least not in public, which reminds me of these two anon messages I got from them once:

. . . 🙈

They really said the GRRM answer to the jonsa question was fan service??? 🤡

I'm telling you, they are a funny bunch 😂

Anyway, I can't believe the curtain of light is a thing . . . . 🙃

Thanks for your message anon 💋

[naetaesarya]

The "human heart in conflict with itself"

More often than not, when I see or experience an exchange with somebody arguing that Jon and Dany are "more interesting" as enemies/"rivals", that person ends up being a Jonsa.

For instance, this is a classic view:

It's funny how many who would identify themselves as a Jonsa fan would say the same of Jonerys: "more interesting" as enemies, as "rivals", as antagonists. No "stale bread conflictless romance" for Jonsas!... Unless it's Jonsa, that is. These are the same people saying Jon will come back hyper fixated on protecting Sansa, reset his personal preferences and characteristics, will play "Beast" to Sansa's "Beauty", the "Prince Eric" to Sansa's "Ariel", and will literally manifest Sansa's happily ever after (or Sansa must sadly and gracefully let go of it and her love Jon as a selfless sacrifice for the independence of the North...) Jonsa fantasies aside, what exactly makes an antagonistic relationship between two strangers "interesting"? What dynamic exists here? It's just, at its most passionate, hate. There's no contrasting emotion, no push and pull, no exchange with another set of feelings. It's just one thing -- bad. Even if Jon found out he and Ramsay were blood related, I don't think Jon is going to have much of an inner conflict over killing the guy. This is the only "humanity" Jonsas allow Jon where Dany is concerned (a bit of shame of kinslaying), which I think is telling. More telling still is how Jonsas want Jon to deal with this and Dany: to sexually exploit, use, abuse, deceive Dany before deciding to coldly kill & dispose of her. And this is one of their leading theories. Most, if not all, of their theories depend on Dany going dark/"mad" -- they seem to involve more of Dany than Sansa. Sansa's chapters have both positive and negative contexts when 'sweet' is used but who's going around claiming how this means Sansa will be betrayed by a lover and killed by his hand? Yet, for Dany, this means Jon will betray her with a knife to the back during their intimacy so he can marry Sansa.

The word 'shadow' has been used 657 times in ASOIAF throughout all POVs and chapters -- it has been used descriptively, to convey mystery, uncertainty, it can be physical blocked light or a metaphor. In Jon's case, it's often used in terms of his mysterious/uncertain/unknown identity. But who cares? When it comes to Dany, it now means betrayal and ulterior motive and Pol!Jon. Jon will betray her with a knife to the back during their intimacy so he can marry Sansa. Sansa throws a feast for the nobles with a lemon cake "just for her" while famine spreads across the country? Queen. Dany feels hungry in the middle of nowhere, malnourished, and feverish? And the wolf cry didn't stop her from being hungry? She's Aerys come again. That's why it'll be a-ok when Jon will betray her with a knife to the back during their intimacy so he can marry Sansa.

But seriously, I don't have any expectation that Jon/Dany would be without conflict, especially in ASOIAF because it's GRRM and things are messy. However, ASOIAF's relationships are always full of emotion, though, and that's what I'd expect and really love to read. Lots and lots of emotions, conflicting, confusing, surprising, fun fun emotions. Jon and Dany are both very young and they're both pretty scarred with one currently dead. And you know, maybe it's Dany who'd have the issue with Jon rather than Jon clutching his pearls at Dany because what if a child does die due to Jon's actions/commands or Jon is pushed to execute a wildling hostage? Yeah? What if it's Dany clutching pearls and Jon telling her to deal with it. And then they go into the back and Maybe maybe that's what we'll see one day, hey. I need to get sober.

[esther-dot]

Hi Esther, I hope you are free of your MCU marathon (but enjoyed time with your nephew).

One of the ideas I've been toying with this morning is that the reason Jonsa is Like That in the show is because it's free(r) of sexualisation. That ask from another anon about incest being morally reprehensible because it is the ostensible place girls and women should be free from the encroachment of sexual harassment/sexualisation made me wonder if the reason so many of us oscillated with Jonsa in the show because a) it was, genuinely, the only dynamic set up in any way that had emotional catharsis and relief without power dynamics until S7/S8 (even then Jon entrusts his power to Sansa); up until this point Sansa had nobody she could be honest with - this is conveyed by Sophie's acting alone, and b) the writers, the misogynists they are (the show is really a travesty for me but let's not go there), wrote Jonsa as a more loving and equal dynamic because they couldn't objectify her as a love interest. If I were to go into examples here, let's just focus on the reunion: it is completely and totally earnest and rewarded relief for both characters, and both perspectives are emphasised. We are usually shut out of the woman's in a male-driven romance.

Objectification is the problem in male-driven romance and really shows through with Jon/D/aenerys and I don't think it's just an issue of chemistry. There is something structurally deeper there that's wrong, and they failed to write it as a Gothic romance (which I think they sortttt of went for with Dragonstone and the tone of the relationship) and as an enemies-to-lovers dynamic (aka riffing off the 'hate to love' romcom expectations, less so any true tension as actual political enemies). The fans who enjoy JD in the show are really attracted to this element and it's no coincidence that this is the predominant archetype in romance genre fiction (and it's no coincidence JD attracted normies hgdjhgfi).

So I wondered if we picked up on the romantic elements in Jonsa... because it's not the misogynistic male view of romance. Which is kind of ironically counter to what that ask was trying to say - but I think this is actually argument for why women can be attracted to the motif in literature, the romance genre, fanfic, etc. because it is where there should be freedom from objectified sexualisation, and by virtue that is attractive, because the characters can meet each other with vulnerability and the female character can expect she should be safe with him (and the forbidden love is attractive lmao). This is only really possible with same-age/non-intergenerational incest and whilst I do think the incest motif in Victorian literature is not necessarily down to these elements, I do think there is a persisting reason on both sides (male writer side and female audience side, in this instance) that this dynamic might have attracted us? Obviously they're more aware of the incest motif in GOT, and probably teased parallels to other incestuous relationships for a reason, but is there the possibility they didn't even really know what they were doing?

This is with the hypothesis in mind that Jonsa either doesn't happen in the books or GRRM, for whatever reason, held that card to his chest, or they discarded the idea altogether.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, because whilst I do feel Jonsa is Romantic in the show, I think it's potentially more to my sensibilities. No way did I ever expect D&D to write a compassionate, mutual romance lol.

P.S. to address the refutation - 'Then why does Kit Harrington look at his sister like that' - I don't know what was going through that man's mind. I am not familiar enough with his oeuvre to say one way or another - in terms of comparing his romantic acting choices - but I would still potentially write that off as the reasons I've described here. Women's view of romance in fiction is often quite different to men's. (I am not prescribing gender here, just speaking generally, and speaking to specific traditions between men and women's spaces).

(related to this ask)

I’m fascinated by this message. Yours is the first, “they didn’t mean it to be romantic” take that I’ve heard and found believable.

it was, genuinely, the only dynamic set up in any way that had emotional catharsis and relief without power dynamics until S7/S8

Dude, even at the end of s8, other than the Lannisters, it was the relationship that escaped with any dignity. It still blows my mind that they didn't allow Jon and Arya any bonding time in s8, and that their last scene is Jon telling Arya to come visit, and her basically being like, "thanks but no thanks bro" with the audience getting the distinct impression, this is the last time they'll see each other which is actually what D&D wanted to convey based on the script. Mind boggling! I've said before, Jon and Sansa's dynamic and the themes of their relationship carried through the last three seasons in a more coherent, meaningful way than any other relationship. One could argue that's because the actors cared and carried that emotional journey through with their acting, but I think it's in the writing too.

the show is really a travesty for me but let's not go there

I'm a show fan, I still enjoy show verse fics/art/meta, but I understand! I haven't watched an episode since the finale, and I didn't/wont watch HOTD either.

wrote Jonsa as a more loving and equal dynamic because they couldn't objectify her as a love interest.

This has merit because apparently in the script of when Jon met Dany they describe Dany as "cute as a bug" or something, so to them, they did reduce Dany to her beauty, the dynamic to "hot people meet, hot people bang" without regard to the political reality that were meant to be working in (as in, a marriage alliance was something Dany mentioned before coming to Westeros, would have made sense in s7 to resolve their stalemate and was only discussed in s8 because people realized they were interested in each other, but at that point it wouldn't have been beneficial politically??? WTF?) and also without care for the ramifications of what they did to Jon "I will not father a bastard" Snow immediately trying to father a bastard with an invader who blithely talked about letting his family/people die and massacring everyone in KL. I too see genocidal conquerors who don't give a shit if my loved ones die a horrible death and Westeros as a whole is conquered by ice zombies as romantic prospects, but I expected better of Jon! The idea that that registers as "mother of my child" to him might even be considered a red flag as to his mental state.

Obviously they're more aware of the incest motif in GOT, and probably teased parallels to other incestuous relationships for a reason, but is there the possibility they didn't even really know what they were doing?

I think it were it were only the jaime x cersei and jonsa parallels, we could conclude they exist to tell us, "jonsa is the good/non incestuous sibling duo." Or, if it were only braime and jonsa parallels, we could conclude, well this is to show what mutual care and respect can do for people. Or if it were only nedcat and jonsa parallels we might conclude, these exist simply because it will help the North rally to them/to show them as the new heads of House Stark. But,what are they getting at with all three, all romantic pairings? What can possibly be gained from the sam x gilly and jonsa parallels? There's no connection there unless it's romantic, no? Or the robb x talisa and jonsa parallels, why shoot them the same way? Now that I think about it, the recreation of SamGilly scenes with Jonsa may be the most damning, because I can come up with explanations for the others (Robb is KitN, Jon is KitN, maybe they wanted to film them in the same way?), but the SamGilly stuff is just romance tropes they used once and then reused for a sibling duo. The fact that all these other pairings had sex is a little sus. At the very least, it wasn't only accidental actor chemistry. Some of those writing/framing choices show intent.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, because whilst I do feel Jonsa is Romantic in the show, I think it's potentially more to my sensibilities. No way did I ever expect D&D to write a compassionate, mutual romance lol.

I'm gonna say something outrageous here, I don't know that D&D are as dumb as most of the people in the fandom claim. A lot of fans blame them for things that I believe are a version of plot points Martin gave them. As in, they were holding him responsible for "destroying" Stannis the same way they hold them responsible for "destroying" Dany, and they were blamed for King Bran too, but all three of those things are gonna happen in the books. What else…they also hated Jaime dying with Cersei. That’s happening in the books too! SO, it's possible that a lot of the crimes we hold them responsible for, were them trying to pull together a story Martin is still expanding, and mow down developments that even in his hands, I'm simply not gonna care for. I mean, maybe we're getting the ideal Jonsa in the books, but it's possible that Jon has more parallels/contrasts to Rhaegar in store for him and that he was meant to agree to a political marriage to Dany although he's in love with a Stark girl (which would tie in with the Jace/Sara stuff), and D&D thought, show Jon simply isn't dark enough, they couldn't do that, so instead they discarded the acknowledged Jonsa romance and the Jonerys political marriage and tried the weird, enemies to lovers/forbidden love thing with Jonerys that made no fucking sense and was universally panned by critics. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I do not know the beats Martin wants to hit, so I bitch about D&D while also trying to give them room for feeling helpless when it came to delivering on what might potentially be, a pretty convoluted wrap up. That doesn't change the fact that they mischaracterized my favs and really fucked up the landing, but before and after s8, Martin has compared it to the adaptation of Gone with the Wind, and I've pointed out before, that's one of the best book to screen translations I've seen. I'm not sure that I've seen a movie that remained as tied to the source material, so that lurks in the back of my mind in a positive and a negative way. Negative, Jon may go through a lot more shit I don't want him to experience. The positive, they understood some significance to the Jon and Sansa relationship even if they never fully clarified the nature of what was happening there.

P.S. to address the refutation - 'Then why does Kit Harrington look at his sister like that' - I don't know what was going through that man's mind. I am not familiar enough with his oeuvre to say one way or another - in terms of comparing his romantic acting choices

I actually did watch several of Kit's movies and some appearances in TV shows after s8 purely for Jonsa reasons. 😂 I wanted to know if he was a very limited actor so he couldn't express different types of love or if his anger/intensity always comes off a little sexual etc. Jonsas have posted comparisons of some of this, I can't find all the gifs now but Kit acts the forehead kiss similarly to how he kisses a romantic lead, he hugged Sansa in the same way he hugs his character's romantic partners in The Eternals and Testament of Youth (his fingers splayed across their backs and dipping his face into their neck). I didn't think he was a great actor, but I also didn't think he was incapable of delivering on the expected emotion. Other fans have said that he had personal issues during filming of the last seasons which explain his acting struggles, but in s7-8, he did just fine in scenes with Sansa, Tormund, Gendry, Tyrion... The only time he was consistently not delivering were Dany scenes, so I don't fully buy that. In fact, the specific look he gives Dany when he declared her his queen is one he uses on the red carpet for pics, (it's def his version of Flynn's "the smolder" lmao) it isn’t one I saw him using in a movie to communicate sincere emotion, love or vulnerability, so I think it's more likely D&D knew Dark Dany/dead Dany was going to be so hated they opted not to pull the trigger on Jon's story. It makes sense to me that they screwed him over in the edit attempting to appease Targ fans and keep them around for HBO's spinoffs.

I'm totally fine with that not working as an explanation for others, it’s an unpopular opinion, but the other factor here is that Sansa was incredibly jealous in s8. Sansa looked at Jon with heart eyes and then walked away in a huff when Jon looked at Dany during the feast (8x04). After that, I did see people who hated Jonsa and even professional reviewers questioning the nature of Sansa's feelings, and yet, nothing came of it. Sophie was always great, her acting was never criticized so what to make of that other then, she was instructed to deliver that performance, I don't know. Makes me wonder what instructions D&D were giving Kit, cuz Cogman was out there after s8 defending them by saying they’re responsible for crafting every performance that we loved. 😐Sansa had clear reasons to dislike/distrust Dany, the jealousy issue was clearly personal and about Jon/his feelings, so, like some of the parallels, this speaks to D&D's intent, not to the actors being bad. Some said it was just another example of D&D's misogyny that Sansa and Dany couldn't get along, obviously, I disagree. Sansa wanted the North's freedom, of course she wasn't going to be fine with giving it up, but there was an entirely different thread through their interactions and in the Jon/Dany scenes which inevitably involved Sansa in s8, all of which was entirely unnecessary unless there was more, something unspoken, there.

If you accept that, there's an awful lot of stuff that suddenly makes sense. That's where I always end up because imo, D&D wanted to do Dark Sansa, they teased it, they didn't do justice to her perspective even when she was right, they were critical of her treatment of Tyrion making him out to be the good guy even though he married a little girl and murdered his gf, and they wrote in their finale script that Jon couldn't forgive Sansa. On their own, would they also write the hero coming to have great respect and trust for her? Would they write her coming to power unprompted? Would they write her having an inexplicable power over Jon? Would they write Jon killing the most popular character to protect her for lolz? I don't think so. I think they were caught between a rock and a hard place and tried to deliver on certain Martin ideas without alienating the entire fanbase. As a lover of characters, I think that was a huge mistake, but judging by the success of HOTD, clearly, their calculations were correct.

[eruherdiriel]

Who's getting married at the end of ASoIaF?

Marriage, alliances, and heirs are all tied together in Westeros and are important parts of the nobles' lives. Since A Dream of Spring is never seeing the light of day and The Winds of Winter is a big fat probably not "we'll see," I will go to my grave haunted by this question. So I decided to reason it out. My Jonsa brain wants it to be them but that seems potentially too "happy." But who else could it be?

George made the comment in May 2016.

Yes, I mean, I did partly joke when I said I don’t know where I was going. I know the broad strokes, and I’ve known the broad strokes since 1991. I know who’s going to be on the Iron Throne. I know who’s gonna win some of the battles, I know the major characters, who’s gonna die and how they’re gonna die, and who’s gonna get married and all that. The major characters. Of course along the way I made up a lot of minor characters, you know.

I've decided to look at living POV characters, except for the one-offs, some as individuals and some as couples. Many POV characters are not "major characters" in my eyes and there are some non-POV characters who are more important, but this was the most objective way I could find to decide who made the list. POV characters are bolded in blue.

I initially read George's comment as meaning two mains are getting married, but as I wrote this, I second guessed myself and thought maybe he meant a main character and someone else. But since marriage is transactional and important to the highborn characters in this story, most of them will get married eventually (unless they die or join a celibate order), which brought me back around to thinking GRRM did mean the marriage would be between two key characters. And it would be relevant to the plot, and not mentioned as an afterthought in an epilogue or family tree. Otherwise, why call it out? With that in mind, let's begin.

Sansa and Tyrion are already married, but GRRM spoke in the future tense so he wasn't referring to an existing marriage. The relationship was unconsummated, their stories have diverged, and they are headed for an annulment. I can't see anyone we know ending up with Tyrion. His plotlines with women have involved prostitution, assault, unfulfilled desire, and violent anger. He seems more likely to kill another partner than marry again. More on Sansa later.

Bran is a possibility plot wise, but who would he marry? Meera is significantly older when they meet in the books, so I don't think that match is realistic in this context. And if Bran is the Summer King, he will likely have to marry a southerner for political reasons (unless there is a new succession plan and/or he can't have children). So it's probably someone we don't know yet or has been mentioned in passing. The last book would also need a time jump to make Bran of marriageable age, or the last two books would need to cover much more time than the previous five.

Arya's arc isn't about who she marries. In fact, she tells us whose plot is about marriage.

“You,” Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, “will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon.” Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." (A Game of Thrones - Eddard V)

But if further convincing is needed that Arya's storyline isn't about marriage, know that a search for "Arya" and "marriage" or "marry" in the books mostly returns results for Sansa talking about marrying Joffrey and then talking about Arya, lol. There's a few other contexts, particularly with fArya, but this one jumped out at me:

Robb was to marry one of their aunts, and Arya one of their uncles. "She never will," Bran said, "not Arya," but Maester Luwin was unyielding, so there they were beside Rickon. (A Clash of Kings - Bran III)

She's not going to be old enough at the end of the series anyway, unless there's a time jump. Next.

Arianne and Aegon/Young Griff: This seems like one of the most possible impending marriages to me, no matter who the Young Griff is in truth. A strategic Dorne marriage is plot relevant and makes sense with Arianne's arc. However, I think it is possible the Young Griff dies before the end of the story. He also doesn't qualify under my slightly arbitrary logic for who a major character is. And Arianne barely qualifies.

Daenerys is dying. Take it up with George. Though technically still married to Hizdahr zo Loraq, maybe she marries a Greyjoy (Victarion or Euron) before she dies, but it won't be relevant long term. Next.

Cersei and Jaime are doomed, as a couple (not that they can marry anyway, as much as they have wished to) and probably individually. Cersei is also vehemently against getting married again, and there's no more Tywin to force her.

Aeron Greyjoy: Can Drowned God priests get married? Doesn't matter. It's not him.

Areo Hotah has two chapters and only made this list because I checked ASoIaF wiki for POV characters to make sure I got everyone with more than one, lol. No weddings to see here.

Asha Greyjoy is sort of married already? Perhaps she gets out of it and later marries a Northerner to ease relations between the North and Iron Islands. A non-POV character likely, but maybe Jon??? Huh. It's not the least or most possible thing here. Not what I expected coming into this.

Brienne: Like Arya, marriage isn't the point of her narrative. It could become important for her to marry in the aftermath of all the wars. But for major characters as her suitor, there's none that make sense. Her interactions with Jaime serve to humanize him and complicate her, but they're not ending up together, even if Jaime ends up alive.

Theon's not getting married if he lives.

Sam is a member of the Night's Watch and technically can't marry. Maybe he gets released from his vows or there is no NW in the end and he is free to marry ... Gilly? Some rando in the Reach? Even if he's not in the Night's Watch, there's that whole maester thing that should prevent him from having a wife.

Davos is already married. Next.

Barristan Selmy is old and a long-serving member of a celibate order.

Jon Connington will be more focused on getting his "son" a match.

And we are back to Sansa. I won't go through all the potential suitors for her. See this brilliant post for that. Given Sansa's narrative themes and that she is headed for a leadership position, a good match for her will be extremely important. She has also been involved in too many marriage plots for one to not work out and be relevant to the larger story.

Jon and Sansa are undoubtedly two of the major characters of the series. Marriage and children are referenced explicitly and implicitly throughout the books for both of them, and they are two of the most romantic characters.

I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. (A Storm of Swords - Jon XII)

Implication of bold text = he dreamed of it before, and here he is doing it again. Notice also that he's thinking less of Val specifically and more of what a marriage would give him access to. Sansa does something similar when thinking about Willas.

If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya. (A Storm of Swords - Sansa II)

(The parallel content of these passages is ... a lot. One sentence for finding love with Val/Willas, then multiple sentences [three for Jon, four for Sansa] about children. The opening sentences are flipped in order [purple and pink text], and there's the shared idea of dreams [in red] and wanting to name their children for people they've lost [orange].)

Who knows how much time the final two books cover, but Jon and Sansa are both of marriageable age by Westeros/George's standards and will be more so by the end of the series, with a much more appropriate age gap between them than a lot of other possibilities. A union between them makes sense, since Jon would get to become a Stark, something he has always wanted, thought not in the way he dreamt might happen. Sansa would get her true knight, though he is imperfect and not the fantasy version she imagined when younger. It solidifies Stark power in the North. The last book was originally A Time for Wolves, after all.

The questions it leaves though are when does this happen? What does Jon's punishment or social status look like if he plays a role in Daenerys's death (for kinslaying and potentially queenslaying)? Is forsaking the Targ name and kneeling to Bran enough, or does he have to serve an exile period? (Am I letting the show influence me too much with these questions?) Can he acknowledge any children he has, or does that get in the way of the Targ line coming to an end, even if the children are Starks (or Snows)?

The final possibility is George changed his mind since that comment. The garden grew in a different direction. This feels hollow and unfulfilling, especially if you take the view that GRRM is deconstructing tropes so he can reconstruct them. There has to be a hopeful marriage/romance after everything else. And marriage is a big enough point in the books for there to be at least one that helps wrap up the story.

Summary of potential matches between two named characters (does not meet full criteria):

Arianne and Aegon/fAegon

Sam and Gilly

And between POV characters (meets full criteria):

Asha and Jon? (Once again, huh.)

Sansa and Jon

But since Sansa is the character I am most confident in having a plot-relevant marriage, Jon x Sansa wins.

This was not rigged, I swear.

[atopvisenyashill]

Personally im not a jonsa but honestly i have alway been confused why jon doesn't acknowledge sansas marriage to tyrion. most fans excuse this bc jon and sansa arent close but like why would jon have more thoughts on tyrion than his own sister? like no reaction to 'lady lannister'?? I just think it so weird that he has no thoughts on her possibly killing joffrey either or her escape. it sticks out to where it has to be purposeful or i guess a random blip of a mistake by grrm. (also why wouldnt stannis use her disappearance as a way to convince jon to become lord of winterfell.)

I touched on this before - I think George is purposefully hiding Jon's reaction to the Tyrion-Sansa marriage because Jon's opinion on Tyrion has sunk incredibly low and he's trying to hide it. If you notice, we don't get Jon's initial reaction - or any real reaction at all - to Robb's murder either, and those two were thick as thieves. We very purposefully don't see Jon's initial reactions to the Sansa-Tyrion marriage, the Red Wedding massacre, or Sansa's disappearance...but we do see him react to the Arya Bolton marriage. Personally, I think it's because the decision to abandon the Night's Watch has been building in his head since he heard about the Red and Purple Weddings (likely he heard this in the same conversation - Jon does not find out Robb has died until Stannis gets there) and finding out that Arya has been married off to a monster who is squatting in their home is the last straw for him, the moment all his grief finally bubbles over.

Also...I don't think Jon has more thoughts about Tyrion than he does Sansa. This is all he has to think about Tyrion:

Jon had known Tyrion Lannister, briefly. He took my hand and named me friend. It was hard to believe the little man had it in him to murder his own sire, but the fact of Lord Tywin's demise seemed to be beyond doubt.

Hardly the thoughts of someone who gives that much of a shit about Tyrion's side of things. Meanwhile, he is insistent on Winterfell being Sansa's. I don't think it matters that he doesn't snap at Stannis when Stannis repeatedly refers to her as "Lady Lannister" - Stannis is prickly as all hell, what does it help for Jon to antagonize him by saying "don't call her that" especially because, as hostage-marriages work in Westeros, she is Lady Lannister. Jon isn't disputing the validity of her marriage - he's disputing that she should be cut out of her inheritance simply because of that marriage.

And when he's reeling from the pink letter, gearing up to break his vows to save Arya, Sansa is on his mind and his thoughts are no less fond than his thoughts for Bran, Rickon, or Robb:

The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell … I want my bride back … I want my bride back … I want my bride back …

To me, it speaks to Jon's grief. He knows Robb has died, he believes Bran and Rickon are dead, he knows Sansa is missing, and now in Winterfell the last of his siblings, the one he had the closest relationship with, is being tortured by a sexual sadist in a hostage-bride situation. I think it speaks to how distraught he is that he thinks of the girls in very childish terms - Arya being messy, Sansa with her direwolf and singing. They're so young, they're hostage-brides, and the loss of all of his siblings is completely out of his control...but maybe he can save Arya.

[torchwood-99]

Stands to reason that the people who ship Hyle/Brienne are Jonsa stans.

Can't stand the thought of a woman like Brienne having a proper, plot important romance, and think only pretty princesses like Sansa are worthy of being romantic heroines. Women like Brienne get mediocre gits like Hyle Hunt and are expected to be grateful.

And let's face it, even if Jonsa somehow does happen, Brienne/Jaime have been given too much build up and played too large a part in each other's lives not to overshadow the last minute incest ship.

And you see how Jonsas try to insist Jonsa is a thing but "secretly" so, and Jaime and Brienne show us how GRRM writes slow burn romances, with actual interactions and actual canon evidence.

[alaynestcnes]

“modern day cassandra curse” — cassandra’s prophecies were actually real tho? so how is she relevant here? the show is over, if jonsa was gonna happen it would have happened. let go.

you are so right, but let’s not just stop at jonsa. if the show is scene for scene how the is book ending then i guess it’s time for everyone to stop speculating. mad dany is gonna happen. queenslayer jon is gonna happen. arya slaying the nk (that doesn’t even exist in the books) is gonna happen. don’t even think about f/ageon or the martells playing a part in the end - the show is gospel and clearly saw fit not to include them so they’re irrelevant.

idk why we were fooling ourselves, there is no way that there is room for grrm’s intricate story to include different plots that go beyond what dnd were able to squish into their short show run.

we are so smart nonny 🤡 🤡 🤡