#hotd critical tw

[mysria]

no matter what happens they can never take this from me

[scarareg]

Can't believe this need to be said but, making your female characters being grateful to their rapist/for being raped is not feminist

[humanpurposes]

Spoilers for season 3?? From grrm’s now deleted blog post, but does this not sum up the entire letdown of season 2?

Season 2 was driven by plot and not character decisions, like we’re running through a checklist because “these are the events that need to happen in this episode.” I can appreciate in 8 episodes they had a lot to get through but it shouldn’t come at the expense of convincing character motivations or satisfying arcs.

The sad thing is I can so see this happening with the Helaena from HotD, where characters do things to either move the plot forward or drag it by its feet. The show rarely gives characters room to exist and have emotions that are explored naturally. What a sure way to completely disengage your audience.

[greenqueenhightower]

B&C clarification anon here! See, I knew B&C happened in Alicent's room & that Halaena was calling for her, but I guess i forgot she was there because she's only mentioned as "bound and gagged" in one line, but then the rest of it in centering Halaena - they never really say how Alicent reacts, do they? Just that she was there.

Hi anon, this is my commentary for the excerpt regarding B&C:

*TW*

Fire & Blood by George R. R. Martin, p. 414-415:

"The two men [...] slipped into his [Otto's] daughter’s chambers, one floor below. Queen Alicent had taken up residence there after the death of King Viserys, when her son Aegon moved into Maegor’s Holdfast with his own queen."

The excerpt opens with Blood and Cheese entering the Tower of the Hand. They bypass Otto's room and rather seek Alicent's chambers. They know that Alicent stays in the Tower of the Hand.

"Once inside, Cheese bound and gagged the Dowager Queen whilst Blood strangled her bedmaid. Then they settled down to wait, for they knew it was the custom of Queen Helaena to bring her children to see their grandmother every evening before bed."

Blood and Cheese enter Alicent's chambers. They wait for Helaena in there. They most probably tell Alicent what is going to transpire, and that they were not looking for her specifically. We can only imagine Alicent waiting, and praying for her daughter to not come to see her that night.

"Blind to her danger, the queen appeared as dusk was settling over the castle, accompanied by her three children. Jaehaerys and Jaehaera were six, Maelor two. As they entered the apartments, Helaena was holding his little hand and calling out her mother’s name."

Helaena enters Alicent's chambers and looks for her there. She calls Alicent's name. Alicent, being gagged, cannot respond.

I will not include the rest of the chapter because it is too graphic but I will give a summary instead:

Helaena pleads with Blood and Cheese to kill her instead of making her choose between her children. We can imagine Alicent reacting to this, and trying to communicate with grunts to her daughter and to the executioners her willingness to sacrifice herself instead. Blood decapitates Jaehaerys and Helaena screams while Maelor and Jaehaera stare in shock. Alicent is still bound and gagged and unable to comfort her daughter and grandchildren. Blood and Cheese then leave with Jaehaerys' head. It is unclear if Helaena's screams rouse the servants who then free Alicent, or if Blood and Cheese free Alicent before they leave. Either way, having jointly witnessed everything, the first person to comfort the two women is each other as they wallow in grief amidst a pool of blood.

Alicent's absence from B&C robs us of this dynamic and the helplessness that two women, two mothers, jointly felt during that scene.

[queenvhagar]

Can I get your personal thoughts and feelings about Criston Cole. I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about him.

My personal background is in sociology, so I'm really interested in social stratification and how different groups in society interact, as well as how intersectionality comes into play in societies. This comes into play for my media interests in that I find shows that explore sociopolitical issues to be most compelling to me personally. A side note is that I also studied medieval French society and concepts of chivalry and courtly love, so this also informs my perspective on how I view stories in medieval contexts.

Fire and Blood explores the history of the society in Westeros and tells stories of wide-scale societal conflict that impacts people of various social backgrounds. In this society, people are stratified by race, class, socioeconomic status, gender, ability, and more. When it comes to the adaptation House of the Dragon, one of my major gripes is that it's only interested in looking at one of these aspects of stratification, gender, and examining it on its own without regard to its intersection with race, class, socioeconomic status, ability, and other social markers that exist in this world. The show wants to explore sexism, but it does so in a vacuum without meaningfully and realistically taking into account how classism, racism, ableism, and other systems of power interact with and exist at the same time as sexism. The way the show handles the character of Criston Cole is a good example of how they fail to fully explore these aspects of world building.

Criston Cole is Dornish in a medieval, feudalist monarchy where Dornish people are looked down upon and discriminated against. He is lowborn in a society that values highborn people and royalty above all else. As he is not born to an important family, he lacks resources like money and land that could allow him social mobility. However, he does have skill at being a knight, a role highly mythologized, idealized, and romanticized in medieval contexts. Knights operate with honor and abide by a code of chivalry, and it is viewed as a noble and honest pursuit and means of living that any boy in that world could dream of embodying. It is Criston's skill with the blade and other knightly abilities that allows him to pursue this role and begin to rise in status and achieve upward mobility.

At the tourney for the heir that Viserys throws in anticipation for Aemma's birth of a son, Criston stands out due to his skill and due to him surpassing expectations of a Dornish lowborn man at a royal tourney. His performance and appearance lead him to be selected by the princess for Kingsguard, the highest position a knight could rise to in this society. Now, Criston finds himself as the highest of knights in service to the realm and particularly the royal family who rules it, the members of which who stand at the top of social hierarchies in this society: Valyrian race, royal blood, immense riches, power, and privileges available to them. And, of course, access to dragons, the ultimate weapons and safeguards of power in this world.

As Criston says himself, his position as Kingsguard is something he worked for his whole life and it's all he really has to his name and legacy, due to his birth and his family's position in this world. As a Kingsguard, at least early on, he takes his vows seriously and performs the job as he thinks an ideal knight would.

One night, the princess, the who promoted him to Kingsguard in the first place, reveals her attraction to him and pressures him to break his vow, and she does not accept multiple refusals as an answer. He implicitly cannot refuse her request, as she holds authority over him. Despite the fact that, yes, she is a young woman of 18 and he is a young man in his early twenties, it stands that she still holds an exceptionally higher amount of power than he does: she is a Targaryen, of the blood of Old Valyria, a dragon riding princess, daughter of the king, and heir to the throne that grants the best absolute power her father holds, while he is a knight from a lowborn family of Dornish background. In this instance, on a whim, the princess knowingly or unknowingly uses her power to take sex from him without considering what might happen to him as a result. The consequences of this event are potentially severe for him while relatively minimal for her. As it stands, if anyone found out, the consequence for him is to be slowly tortured to death. For the princess, if anyone found out, there is ultimately protection from the king. Criston would die an agonizing death, but at the very worst, she is disinherited, but only if her father wishes it (and she still retains her name and her dragon to help her survive in the world). Following this event, the princess tells him that she expects him to be fine with being used for sex whenever she wants, despite the severe risks to safety and well-being this poses to especially him.

Criston becomes disillusioned with the world he knew. He did everything he was supposed to do - endeavor to improve his position in the world through the righteous means of being a knight - yet now, everything he worked for is potentially crumbling before him. He tries to rationalize her decision to take advantage of him - maybe she truly loves him and that is why she would not accept his refusal? But the reality is that she views him as a plaything. His whole life of work to achieve upward mobility and make a name for himself in the world, and on account of his race, class background, and relative position of powerlessness, he is simply used and treated like an object by royalty. What purpose does he truly serve, if it is not to be a sworn knight abiding his vows and serving the realm and the royal family? Criston's grasp on his identity and purpose waver. When interviewed by the queen, he confesses his guilt and asks for a quick death. He accepts that his life may be over and that everything he suffered through in his life meant nothing. At the princess's wedding, he is threatened by someone he perceives as attempting to expose what happened, which would result in a torturous death. He snaps, killing the man to silence him. Having taken this life, resigned to death himself, he retreats to the weirwood to commit suicide. But it is there that the queen appears to stop him, and in Alicent, he finds a renewed sense of identity and purpose. In Alicent, he can relate to being thoughtlessly used by members of the royal family. In Alicent, he can believe once again in the idea of being a knight serving a queen who saved his life when it would have been easier for her not to. In Alicent, and in her children, Criston renews his identity in knighthood and his purpose in protecting the royal family. This time, though, these royals are not just using him without consideration and will not take him and his sacrifices for granted. Criston once again buys into the mythologizing of knighthood and royalty, which gives him identity and purpose in the world once more.

At this point, I'll address that many viewers and readers see his dislike of Rhaenyra as evidence of him being a uniquely misogynist man in this world where gender is heavily stratified. While sexism does exist at large in this society, there is only evidence of Criston disliking one single woman who used him and then discarded him at great risk and harm to him personally. In this regard, him hating Rhaenyra is logical given their past. He does not seem to be more exceptionally sexist than any other character in this story, yet fans focus in on him in particular for this. The "why" of it all likely has to do with the framing of the show: the writers emphasize the perspective of the royals and those with the most power in this world, and from their perspective, anyone in proximity to these royals should be grateful for it, despite anything that happens, because they are the sympathetic main characters. This is especially true for someone like Criston who apparently should be happy that despite his low birth and inferior (in this world) racial identity, the princess still offered to have sex with him and this is the best thing he could hope to ever achieve in his life. Once again, the show hyper focuses on sexism in Westeros but does not explore other systems of power that exist in the world and/or their relations to one another and the result is a skewed view of how the world really functions and who actual holds power relative to who. This, combined with the shows insertion of certain 21st century politics into aspects of the show when realistically no such things existed in historical or fictional medieval feudalist monarchies, results in fans insisting Criston is an incel, showing fundamental misunderstanding of the world of Westeros and also apparently the term incel itself, as Criston is tied for the character with the most sex scenes so far at 3 separate scenes so clearly he is not involuntarily celibate.

Post time skip, decades pass and Criston continues to fulfill his roles as knight and protector of the royal family until finally the day comes when the king dies. Then, he works with the Green Council to take action to protect his faction of the royal family from the perceived threat of the other and becomes "Kingmaker" by personally crowning Aegon. Following the murder of Jaehaerys by Daemon and Rhaenyra in retaliation for the death of Lucerys, he advocates for stronger, strategic military action in the then inevitable war while Otto Hightower insists on sending more ravens. This results in Aegon making him Hand of the King instead. His plan with Aegon and Aemond to trap one of the Black's dragons allows the Greens to take Meleys out, but it also allows for Aegon to become injured and bedridden, necessitating that Aemond take over in his stead as Prince Regent and Protector of the Realm.

As for season 2 additions and changes from the source material, I always saw Criston's relationship with Alicent as one of courtly love, and so far in the show the motivations of each character regarding a sexual relationship have been confusing at best. How did it even start? When? What does it mean for their long term relationship and how it's grown? How does it impact each participant's view on the world and knighthood and royalty and honor and loyalty? The show seems to not care to explore any of this beyond trying to paint the two in a bad light. I could maybe buy a sexual relationship if it was well-developed, but there was basically no set up or narrative reason for its addition beyond making the characters look worse and deflecting blame from Blood and Cheese onto them. In the case of a developed romance or sexual relationship, I would say that Criston's relationship with Alicent has grown for over a decade into one of loyalty and trust, and a physical relationship might come from that once the king died, although some amount of moral conflict would likely still occur for each character.

As for the plan at Rook's Rest, it doesn't make much sense for Aegon to be left out of the loop, just as it doesn't make sense for Aemond to willingly sabotage his own side of the war by taking out Aegon and his dragon, especially over something like bullying when the stakes are so much higher than that at this point. If anything, the animosity between the brothers should be about how Aemond's actions indirectly lead to the death of Aegon's son (if the writers allowed Blood and Cheese to have any major impact on the story, but their goals are instead to minimize Team Black's involvement and lessen Team Green's reaction to it, so it remains obscured and in the background).

In general, I might be interested in the writers potentially wanting to explore in season 2 Criston's relationship with his vows and honor and even showing some hypocrisy while highlighting the conflict between his righteous ideals and less than righteous means of accomplishing his goals. However, it's clear that their intent with Criston and Team Green is to point fingers and label them as dysfunctional, morally reprehensible villains in contrast to a righteous Team Black and that's all they're interested in. There is no meaningful exploration of character or growth to be expected from Criston Cole. Unfortunately fan vitriol will continue to focus on Criston above other members of Team Green for the reasons listed above, and the writing will likely only continue to add to that.

[sainteda]

hotd finale spoilers

i think the core issue w the finale scene isn't alicent's willingness to cleave to rhaenyra for mercy as otto once warned her she would or even to recognize that to finally choose a life for herself her sons will likely die (although an 8ep season missing integral scenes like a confrontation w aemond immediately post-s1 or more impact from b&c [given instead to a mishandled alicole plot] is also a big problem), it's the viserys worship ingrained in his every mention or lack thereof. alicent has to recycle an arc of powerlessness she's already endured her entire life, as if to drill into the minds of an audience that was already unwilling to sympathize with her that — actually — she's powerless! who would have thought! because the show refuses to recognize viserys for what he was, or at the VERY LEAST what he did to her, alicent's journey to rhaenyra (and more importantly, away from court) has to be borne of a million new heavy-handed methods the writers have concocted to hit her while she's down, and then hit her again. and again. and again.

alicent can't come to rhaenyra and plead her case while simultaneously reckoning with her anger that this is not new! this is not just her sons or the green council! she was sold off by her only family to the father of the only person she ever chose and it caused her to lose her and she was a child! she never wanted to marry viserys. she never wanted her children. he forced her to have them and then he discarded them and he's lauded even in death for his consideration and judiciousness when he never considered her. why can't she be angry at him!! why bother writing her grief over who she could have been without acknowledging one of the two people who took that version of her away? it's so hollow. the alicent who seeks out rhaenyra on dragonstone is needlessly humbled, lobotomized, and her lines read almost as if she's pleading her case to the audience instead of rhaenyra herself. why can she not be desperate to be heard while the epiphany of not only her lack of autonomy but of personhood itself fights not to bubble over the surface? shouldn't her grief be heaviest now, for not even knowing herself but coming to rhaenyra anyway? rhaenyra who might be the only choice she can remember making? isn't there an inherent anger in that? she could have taken helena and jaehera and gone as far as possible but she's here, before her opposition, grasping at an olive branch she knows is broken, because it's what she would have done the last time she was a person who could choose. it's what she wanted twenty years ago, and what else is there. there's been no alicent since but whoever she had to be to keep herself and her children alive. isn't that fucked up??? hello???

i understand it's a reversal of the scene in the sept so rhaenyra is shutting alicent down but it just makes alicent's path to freedom to look more like a new form of submission. as if her fears weren’t justified. as if her anger in season 1 was petty jealousy rectified once she Saw The Light (rhaenyra). anyways. regardless of hes that she's talking about her and rhaenyra through viserys and aemma, i really don't think i can overstate the wrongness of alicent speaking fondly of him in a scene that's supposed to be about her coming to terms with a lifetime of being used particularly by men — and still continuing to extol a man who quite literally raped her in a scene that is In the show. am i supposed to forget the marital rape of a child bride? the one that they put in the show. on purpose. ??? how am i supposed to view that as anything but disingenuous?

[sukibenders]

Some in the HOTD fandom really don't care about black people or their voices, and it shows especially during conversations about the portrayal of black characters. I've been seeing an uptick mostly in regards to the possibility that Ryan Cordal may merge Rhaena's and Nettles's storylines and, while I'm not finished with the book (audiobook) nor have reached Nettles part, I don't want that to happen for a couple of reasons. However, it's very apparent the very "here, there!" energy some have when people complain about this by going "But they made the Velaryons, this great house, black! Corlys and his family, his children, and grandchildren are black, so what's the problem?" If they actually cared then they would have gathered the issue a long time ago, but instead, they play ignorant. I've stated some of the issues of HOTD's treatment of black characters in my post about Laena (+ featuring Baela, Rhaena, and even Laenor), but one really annoying thing is the belief that just making these characters black was enough. This is a very common theme that I see with some who go "Oh, we don't mind that you changed the race of this/these character(s)" but only as long as they remain in the background after that change, completely ignoring how, in the original text, said character was given more to do than what is shown after the change.

I was very excited to hear that the Velaryons would be played by black actors, especially after hearing all the things that happen in the books, but then I get little to nothing from the show in those regards. Many vital plot points for these characters have been skipped over, or rushed, or just plain ignored and yet whenever we criticize it we're met with people saying we should just be happy that we got something. That we get to be in it at all. And it's very apparent the disparities in treatment because I've seen think pieces and the praises they receive when people call out how HOTD portrays Rhaenyra, or Alicent, or Daemon and many of the other white characters (which is fine, as it makes since because there are big differences) but it's crickets or passive aggressiveness when it comes to the black and other poc characters. Sometimes they can't even have any plot of their own without it relating back to their white counterparts (eg. Laena's dragonriders death being brought back to Rhaenyra to elevate her, or her death just being used as a stepping stone to bring Daemyra onscreen). I remember seeing people being mad at Rhaena for daring to be upset at being sent away, not even bothering to see her side of things and calling her selfish and whiny because she dared to make the decision harder on Rhaenyra. Like gods forbid black and brown characters get testy because suddenly it's a problem.

Another argument I see when it comes to Nettles involvement is because, apparently, "there are already black characters in the show" as if that, not only, ignores the treatment they face but also acts as a reason as to why she can't be added to the show. Why can't there be more black characters? Why do they only have to be silver-haired or illegitimate children to be important? Like, at this point, say what you want to say out loud. And I know that some don't want her added because of how it makes Rhaenyra look (because I know she says some nasty and borderline racist things in the books) and the show has a thing for not making her, or other members of TB, morally dubious/complex, as well as splits Daemyra and, if that's the case, JUST SAY SO! Stop creating fake think pieces when you really just don't like this black character because you don't want her to take away from your favorite white incest ship, which, in HOTD, is already crashing and burning from what it seems at this point. Like Nettles and Daemon could still be a thing, maybe with some slight changes, and Rhaenyra could still be involved (because I think these three characters are connected plotwise, from what I've seen so far, so it wouldn't really make sense to split them up) by making her see the same grooming tendencies that Daemon used for her toward Nettles, maybe she gets protective if they want to follow HOTD canon. Maybe not, who knows, but in the end erasing this prevalent black character does nothing helpful to the story just gives some of these fans the ability to not see more black people in their fantasy genre.

[baby-girl-aaron-dessner]

Aegon: rapist, enjoys watching his children fight violently to the death, murders innocent people.

HotD Fandom: Poor Aegon, he has an awful mother 🥺.

Alicent: Child bride at 14, rape victim, pimp father, deadbeat husband, forced to have 4 children.

HotD Fandom: Alicent is the root cause of all our problems. This woman is pure evil and the worst mother to ever exist. Shame!

[mysria]

I have mixed feelings

That backstory change is absolutely not canon here lmao fuck off. what is with this fucking inc*st obsession and just adding the worst shit possible for no reason besides a certain writer (hess) has a fucking obsession with r*pe. obvs mys was abused enough in her life as a slave and a sex worker and they did NOT need to add that.

icb they're baiting me with The Throuple but they're probably gonna make it some weird cheating angle instead of poly and I'm scared of that. if they actually do go for the poly route I will take back my negativity around it but again . . . I don't fucking trust them to do that the way they're already handling the individual dynamics here.

them stripping away the inherent trust in mys's relationship with d.aemon and transplanting it onto r.haenyra is a bit of an issue for me. like yes I think she came to trust r.haenyra absolutely but it's different from having 20+ years in someone's life and d.aemon being the only one she could depend on for so long.

I also don't like the way it feels like they've stripped so much power away from m.ys's character and they've turned yet another woman in this show into a perpetual victim. m.ys wasn't fucking powerless her entire life, she took her power back herself after she came to k.ing's l.anding. she did that shit!! she wasn't just staying there suffering the whole damn time. she didn't need r.haenyra to "free her" just like she didn't need d.aemon to "free her", he just helped her handle her shit. and like yeah d.aemon did play a part in that so she's always going to be grateful, I'm tired of them stripping the nuance from her character and this dynamic and relegating it to "men always bad no matter what, every woman's primary character trait is being abused, sex work ick we can't possibly be nuanced about it or allow a woman to have any agency when she's in that field of work" like be so fucking fr right now you goddamn weirdo writers.

The worst part is that I know mys is gonna get a lot of stupid hate thrown at her character for this bc of how they're portraying this and because she is now "in the way" of two of the most popular ships in the show fandom and of course that's gonna be heightened and spewed with all kinds of misogyny and racism bc she is a woman of color.

[pterodactylterrace]

“You do not mention our talks to Rhaenyra, do you? I fear she may not understand them.” That is what Viserys says to Alicent when she is visiting him, talking to him about his Lego set.

You know what? That feels a lot like “It’s our little secret. Don’t tell anyone about our game.”

If you needed any further proof Viserys knew what he was doing was wrong, there you go. Why would he want Alicent to say quiet about her visits if he had only pure intentions in mind?

He married Aemma when she was 11. Ages get changed in the show, but I believe Alicent is 16 at the oldest when he marries her. Because it’s just too weird for him to marry a 12 year old. The fifteen year old, though? Free game, apparently!

What happened to Alicent was SA, pure and simple. She didn’t even realize what was happening until she was neck deep in everyone’s schemes. Her mother died, her father is using her for power and her new husband uses her to have the son he always dreamed of, just to then ignore all the children she gave him. Her story is a tragedy.

[alicentflorent]

HOTD really should pick a fucking lane when it comes to Aegon and what kind of person they want him to be. Last season they introduced adult Aegon by having the opening scene be of teenage servant coming forward as aegons rape victim and aegon himself showing no remorse when confronted. Then the following episode he’s revealed to be down right sadistic because he bit only rapes, but he watches children in fighting pits for entertainment and profit, he SA’d Aemond by forcing him into a brothel when he turned 13. The show wanted him set up as their version of joffrey. Cruel and depraved, someone capable of being a worthy opponent/villain for Rhaenyra simply because he’s capable of sick and evil things. Then comes 2.01 and they’ve (yet again) done a complete 180 with his character by reverting him back to the teenage version of aegon, clueless about politics, definitely an asshole but not quite a villain, more of a comedic character than a super dark one. Either you want a character to be a clear cut villain or a grey character that we can sympathise with and understand at first but we continue to watch them become more irredeemable. They failed in writing one nuanced character that is somewhere in between these two versions who they are building up to become more sinister and a bigger threat as the war goes on

[halfyearsqueen]

show verse thoughts + divergences

okay firstly—the search for luke took so long for a lot of reasons but chiefly, she wasn’t flying. the complete erasure of any physical ramifications of her miscarrying visenya has bugged me since s1 and I’m not interested in erasing that here. she went by ship.

part of why jace was the one who picked joffrey up during the funeral is she physically could not 😭

[queenvhagar]

Just a minor nitpick here! You guys keep saying "childbirth" in reference to what Rhaenyra endured in 1.10, but in actuality it should be miscarriage. Not a HUGE problem for me personally when it comes to talking about it, but what is a problem is how the show NEVER even addresses it again. They play lip service to the fact that Rhaenyra lost Lucerys, but forget to bring up how the infant that would've been her only daughter was a stillborn deformity!

Couldn't they have spent more time addressing the fact that Rhaenyra wanted a daughter and named her Visenya? It would've presented a wonderfully tragic opportunity to open up a conversation about how sons are preferred over daughters in Westeros! Think of the callback they could've made to 1.01 where Rhaenyra hoped that Baelon would be a girl she could name Visenya, hinting at her obsession with her ancestor and her legacy.

Rhaenyra literally suffered a traumatic miscarriage and then hopped on Syrax within 24 hours without any sign of physical duress, which should've been a through-line of S2! Instead of shoving the same Black Council scenes in our faces every episode and having no justifiable reason why Rhaenyra cannot just fly off into battle, show us that she is physically unable to do so! The degree to which Rhaenyra's body would be suffering from miscarrying Visenya and flying out to confront Otto could've been the PRIMARY reason why she was being mollycoddled by her family and small council.

It would also offer a poignant exploration of what generational incest does to Targaryen women and how incredibly DISTURBING™️ it is that these deformed dragon babies come from their bodies in pursuit of birthing heirs to preserve the legacy of their house. Who's to say it didn't happen to one of Aemma's babies? An entire conversation and arc that Rhaenyra could've had instead of asking "what would you have me do?" for the umpteenth time. But nah, Rhaenyra doesn't get to talk about the state or purpose of her body in any meaningful way that challenges the notion of Targaryen Exceptionalism or explore feminism.

By "childbirth" I was trying to emphasize that a whole child just came out of her, likening the process of birth that she underwent to general childbirth and its recovery, but it's true that the technical term for what occurred should actually be stillbirth. By definition, a pregnancy loss is called a miscarriage only if it occurs before 24 completed weeks, and according to the wiki for the book, Visenya was a month early or at about 36 or so weeks developed. In the show, Rhaenyra did seem to be further along in her pregnancy like was suggested in the book, so likely stillbirth is the most accurate term for what happened. Either way, you're right that it's separate from childbirth. However, the actual bodily processes associated with labor and recovery apply to both.

In any case, the baby that was delivered wasn't shown in its entirety or given a name onscreen, and then she was never acknowledged ever again by anyone. It really seems like a missed opportunity to emphasize the show's stance of Rhaenyra as supposedly the ultimate victim of the Greens AND to explore what you said above: what impact has this generational incest had on the bodies of the women forced to partake in it? This dragon baby's father was the product of sibling-sibling incest, coming from a line of sibling-sibling incest from Aegon I... and the dragon baby's mother is the product of first cousins getting together, with one cousin being the product of the same sibling-sibling incest that produced the dragon baby's father. All of this results in a deformed child who was "twisted and malformed, with a hole in her chest where her heart should have been and a stubby, scaled tail." For reference, for those who haven't seen the behind the scenes images of the silicone prop baby created for the scene, here are the photos (honestly, for the craftsmanship alone of this creation it should have been shown):

What does it do your body having carried and vaginally delivered such a child? Especially if said child in fact had qualities such as scales and a tail? For all the emphasis the show puts on birthing and women's bodies in season one, for this aspect of the reality of the birthing process to be brushed under the rug and not utilized at all is crazy. It really makes me think season one ultimately showed all of those births for shock value and/or surface level attempts at telling a feminist interpretation of the story. It's also worth mentioning that these scenes were only given to women on Team Black, and despite the number of young births that happened in the timeline for Alicent (4) and Helaena (3), none of that is shown or those women's experiences given significance.

Ultimately, this was a missed opportunity.

[tangerinecherrygal]

rewatching hotd and once again wondering why they made aegon a rapist? we already get that he’s not a good person. then they try to make us sympathise with him in the carriage scene.

maybe it’s to show the patriarchal society the characters live in, but it’s not really brought up again and the audience should already get that if they’ve watched the show so far. when season 2’s entire marketing depends on you choosing a side it’s a bit difficult when a figurehead for one side is a rapist. i love aemond and alicent but i struggle to get behind aegon bc of this and i’ve seen book readers say similarly.

this isn’t anti team green or anti team black btw. i actually enjoy most of the characters on the show for what they are. i get bothered when rape is used in the plot when it doesn’t have to be, though.

[gwenllian-in-the-abbey]

apologies for being callous in asking this, but seeing as so many aegon-centric (or those who had tagged him) blogs, no matter how good their dissertion and dissection of aegon is, gets called/is assumed to be a rapist defender/apologist, have you ever received an ask/comment calling you that? if so, i hope it never bothered you at all. apologies for bringing it up but i feel like getting called that would probably stopped those from actually enjoying/talking about him and his other qualities (such as his alcoholism, his bond with his dragon, his actions during the dance, his desperate survival.) because it actually stopped me from enjoying his character (because i initially felt so bad liking a character like that), going through his tag as well as looking for fics because of the vitriol. well that was until i stumbled upon your AKAB and OFCiR, which gave me so much perspective on aegon. and your opinion on the dyanna scene (which is oh boy, such a hot topic) was so beautiful.

No worries anon! So actually, I've never received an ask or comment with the rape defender/rape apologist accusations (and now that I've said this, I'm sure I'm sure someone will want to break that streak lol). I've participated in discussions in general in which those sorts of attacks were tossed around, but I've never had them aimed at me directly.

I'm honestly pretty surprised it hasn't happened, but I sort of chalk it up to two things. 1) I block prodigiously and pre-emptively and 2) I tag my discourse posts judiciously and try not to antagonize other fans by posting critical things in the main tags. And although I know opinions vary on this, using anti tags and team tags is also another way of making sure that people who have certain tags blocked will not see my posts, so I do use those when I feel it's appropriate. Beyond those two things, I think I also have a habit of writing pretty detailed responses and providing evidence to back up my assertions, which probably discourages people who are just looking to get a rise out of someone and don't want to read a five paragraph essay about why they're wrong.

I'm really sorry that those sorts of accusations have stopped you from enjoying Aegon's character in the past, and I'm glad my fics helped you to enjoy him again. Obviously I think he's an interesting guy with a compelling, tragic story! I will say this: I've been in the greater asoiaf fandom for well over a decade now, and characters who are far more morally dubious than Aegon have always had fans. Ramsay has fans. Euron Greyjoy has fans. I don't know if you were watching GoT when the show first aired, but so many show only people hated Jaime at first, not knowing his arc, and by the end he was one of the more beloved characters on the show. And by the end of the Dance, no one's hands are clean. Rhaenyra herself allows Dalton Greyjoy to reave along the coast of the Westerlands, which results in hundreds of women being taken as salt wives (and we know what that entails!). If we can only enjoy the most morally correct characters, our choices for the Dance era are pretty slim, and mostly limited to literal children.

I doubt most people throwing out those accusations could even spot actual rape apologia in a fandom context, considering all of the other types of apologia I see flying around unchecked. Rape apologia is not the existence of rapist characters, enjoying those characters, or even analyzing why those characters did what they did. Rape apologia is not questioning why the show decided to make Aegon a rapist, or hoping he might get more character development in the future. Rape apologia is making excuses for rape, or outright denying that it happened. So, saying "Dyana was probably lying" or "Dyana was probably into it" or "Dyana was scamming the royal family," or even what Aegon himself said in the scene, "it was just a bit of harmless fun," that's clear cut rape apologia. And here's the thing, when something is wrong, it's usually because it causes harm, and unlike simply enjoying a character, actual rape apologia does cause harm. Making excuses for or denying even fictional rapes perpetuates rape culture in ways that make it harder for women to speak up against assault, and harder for rapists to be prosecuted effectively. But again, I have never seen actual rape apologia among the team green fans I know.

Finally, I'll just say that while fandom in general can be a fun, positive thing that helps people connect with each other based on shared interests, that drives people to think and to create and to do, on the other hand, fandom can also feed some pretty shitty modern impulses. It creates cliques, empowers bullies, and worst of all, it encourages a kind of brand driven consumption that in turn perpetuates this idea of fandom as activism. Activism is getting involved in your community, volunteering, fundraising, protesting, labor organizing, boycotting, etc. Activism is not scolding people online for enjoying media the wrong way. People who think this way need to reconnect with the outside world, and anon, I hope you continue to enjoy whichever characters fascinate you, including Aegon.

[montyluvsjasper]

So, you're saying Daenerys is a "white feminist" but social justice and virtue signaling in art is bad in the same sentence? 😂😂😂 Poor little retarded cry baby. So desperate that can't even stay consistent.

You just called an Autistic person the r SLUR in defense of a fictional character who's in story "race" is based on the aryan race... remember what those aryan's started calling themselves? Remember what they did to autistic people? But we'll let that slide this time dear.

I think show!Dany is written and adapted by hbo and D&D in a bland 2010s white feminist way that GRRM did not intend but was popular in media at the time to make money. That's my biased opinion on the way a fictional character was written in a book adaptation. I do not think Dany is a white feminist because Dany is not real.

Social justice has its place in art, but fandom is not Social Justice activism and all art does not need to be radical. No one should be judged for making art that doesn't hurt anyone. No one is required to make their art soft and a safe place.

Liking Dany, Sansa, Alicent, Cersei, Rhaenyra, Rhaenys etc. does not make you a better feminist and it doesn't "raise awareness" or make you cooler or more liberal. Art is very often fiction there for is not real and is rather inconsequential in the grand scheme of things. You're permitted to enjoy it as you personally see fit.

No one who likes Aegon, Aemond, Joffery (please remember that his actor got so much hate for playing that character he had to find a new CAREER PATH not job a CAREER PATH) or Ramsay is automatically a morally corrupt human being and this whole it's "sus" thing shows a lack of media literacy, critical thinking and large amounts of purity culture shifted into fandom, social justice or some other outlet instead properly unpacking.

This shit is all fake and for fun literally none of it matters. None of it has ever mattered. Not the shit that "happened" between Dean and Cas or Clarke and Lexa. No fandom shit is REAL. Using it to assign moral value to anything ruins the experience. This is a hobby, it's not that serious. Let people have fun and do what they want. Using FICTION to signify MORALITY is bullshit.

Virtue signaling isn't a simple issue with things that matter, why the fuck would we bring it into FICTION or a HOBBY. Right now, this fandom is doing that with actors and jeopardizing their careers not to mention how we treat each other or how we all go around antagonizing each other over a fictional succession crisis.

But I expect someone who still uses slurs in 2024 is probably too dense and self absorbed to realize any of that on their own. Have a day sweetie.