#henry creel discourse

[bebx]

“oh this little guy is your blorbo? name every crime he’s committed and the tragic backstory behind those sad pretty eyes of his then”

[kathrahender]

Some people always get angry when a villain is redeemed. They say things like "Stop redeeming the villain" "Villain redemption is such a terrible trope" "Not all villains deserve redemption" "Villains redemption are ruining media" "You are afraid of villanous characters because you can't bear people making mistakes" "Villain redemption is toxic/unhealthy" "You shouldn't try to fix someone!" and- Well- I have to talk about this because I seriously don't understand why people don't want to accept villains redemption.

"Villain redemption is such a terrible trope" "Villains redemption are ruining media". No, it's not a bad trope. Is not ruining media. It's an awesome trope, a wholesome trope, and I'm gonna say why. A villain redemption means nothing more than a person realizing they did bad things. It means a villain becoming a better person, a villain leaving the Dark Side because humanity and honor were more important than evilness and cruelty for them. And that's a beautiful concept. A villain becoming good? A villain who stops being bad because after all, they have a good side, because they are human? Where's the bad thing there? Where's the bad thing in realizing how much pain you've caused, and changing your morals for good? Seriously, people who hate villains redemption, where's the problem in this trope?

"Not all villains deserve redemption". Again with this tiring argument. When will you understand it? A villain redemption is not based on if they deserve it or not. It's based on the villain himself. It's based on their thoughts, on their morals. It's based on them changing from "I want to hurt/kill everyone who is against me" to "Oh God I'm a monster, what have I done?". Villains don't "deserve" redemption. They just redeem, or they don't, and it has nothing to do with "deserving" it. Some of you could think "Not all villains should be redeemed then!". I will talk about that argument in the last paragraph.

"You are afraid of villanous characters because you can't bear people making mistakes". That's definitely not true. That's bullshit. We're not afraid of people making mistakes. If that was true, we would be afraid of a hero making mistakes. And we aren't afraid of heroes who make mistakes. Because making mistakes makes you human. But- realizing you made a mistake also makes you human. That's what we like about this trope. A bad person, a villain or an anti-villain being actually human deep down.

"Villain redemption is toxic/unhealthy!" Actually- you know what's actually toxic? Hate. Hate is actually toxic. Hating someone is unhealthy. Of all the things you can do in your life, hating someone is the worst thing you can do. Why losing time hating when you can do better things for your heart and for your soul? Because the only thing you will get with hate is your heart/soul corrupted. A villain redeemed is not toxic nor unhealthy. Why a person changing for the better would be toxic or unhealthy?

"You shouldn't try to fix someone". Why? Why shouldn't I try to fix someone? Why shouldn't I want a bad person to turn good? Why shouldn't I want a villain becoming a hero? Why should I want the hate in this world to grow? Why should I want evilness to win? What you're saying doesn't make any sense. I want to fix villains because I believe in goodness! Because I want the good side to win! I want people having a happy ending, and the only way a villain can get a happy ending is being redeemed. And I want the villains to have a happy ending too because dying or getting tortured/being imprisioned after being suffering in your past is horrible. Yeah, I know villains hurt people, but some of them also were hurt, and although I don't justify them, I still want their pain to end and I want them to live, not just survive. I want them to change for the good, why is that so bad?

And even if they were "born evil" (what I doubt because for me villains are made not born) and "didn't suffered"- I want them to have a happy ending after redeeming because I want to believe in their goodness, in their humanity, and I don't want them to die because I think they also deserve a second chance in life and a chance to be happy (because if you can't be happy in this life, what's even the point?).

"But why would you want a villain having a happy ending after all they did????" Because I don't want them to suffer. "They made other people suffer, why would you want them to have a happy ending?" Because I believe no one deserves to have a bad ending in life. "So you defend the monsters in real life??? You support the real killers?? You are a murder apologist!!" Now hold on a fucking second. There's a fucking difference between liking a villain in fiction and want them to have a happy ending and want the real life villains to have a happy ending. Fiction is not fucking reality and you should know that. I want villains in fiction to redeem because I want to believe in their goodness, because I want to believe everyone is capable of being good, because I want to believe love and goodness can conquer all. Because I want to believe that no matter what, the good side will always win. Besides, most of the villains live in magic worlds, where sometimes death is not permanent, where you can see your loved ones even if it's not for a long time. And in fiction time-travel also exist. None of these things happen in reality. There's no magic, there's no time turner who can help you travel back in time to erase the villain's actions, there aren't Force Ghosts of your family or friends. Real life villains' actions are irrevocable and unforgivable. You can't bring back the dead because in this world once a person dies, that's the end of the line. But that doesn't happen in fiction. So stop comparing a real life villain actions with a fictional villain actions. They're not the same.

To end this post I want to say that the ones who like villains redemption (I'm a part of those people, of course) don't want all villains to be redeemed. There are villains we hate with all our heart, villains who are pure evil who doesn't deserve anything good. Villains like Gerard Argent, Dolores Umbridge, Sheev Palpatine, Captain Turner, Sebastian Shaw and Azulon. And more villains like those. So yeah, we do not want to see every villain redeemed.

[starsarefire824]

Do you think it could be that Henry while possessing someone might tap into the person's inner worst fears about themselves? Cause if we are going that route than Will was responsible for orchestrating and seeing through with a mass murder. Could this be because Henry was tapping into something that Will deep down is afraid of or hides from the world? That he might be violent like his father? Could it be that Billy always had that in him and Henry is praying on it and using it to his advantage?

I do find it interesting though with Will's possession being SA coded is that it seems like a very specific instance that has something to do with Will that we haven't been made aware of yet. (Which I think season 5 will address in telling us the WHY of Will being targeted).

I don't know. It all interests me. Your thoughts are interesting!

TW: mentions of SA

Actually disgusted by b*lly stans saying him and Heather would be friends. Why? Bc her kidnapping is basically a metaphor for him sexually assaulting her.

First of all, Heather asks Billy if he is ok while. He lashes out and pins her against the wall, choking her. She loses consciousness.

Next thing we know she is tied up in Billy's trunk, with a gag. Billy drags her to an abandoned building and there she is lying on the floor. She struggles and Billy pins her down and says "Don't be afraid. It'll be over soon. Just stay very still". All of this while he has the upper ground over her as she is tied and pinned down to the floor. He removes the gag right before she is "possessed". I think it's pretty obvious why in this metaphor he removed the gag.

If this isn't a very clear case of rape and SA idk what it is. Plus this is exactly how I remember my rape. What billy tells heather is word by word what my rapist said to me, that night. And we're supposed to overlook this and sympathize w that mf? Hell nah. I'm proud to hate on him tbh

[rotisseries]

i have GOT to stop going and checking out the notes on... that one post.... but it's CRAZY to me that people keep reblogging it very seriously being like "HOW CAN PEOPLE LIKE HENRY HE MURDERED 20 CHILDREN"

you mean the fictional child murder?? you mean the fake fictional child murder?? you mean the fake fictional telekinetic sci fi child murder by fake fictional telekinetic sci fi murder man on fake fictional telekinetic sci fi horror netflix show stranger things??? YOU MEAN THAT FAKE MURDER???

no you're so right there's never once been a history of fandoms liking a guy even if he did a bit of fake fictional murder what an insane concept

[amaryllis-kae]

Poor Henry Creel; the man's being pulled like the rope in a game of tug-of-war. Gay Henry bloggers vs straight/ambiguous sexuality Henry bloggers, and what do we get? Bitching and jumping to conclusions. If you're going to preach that your non-canon ship has nuance and is valid, then you don't get to have a knee-jerk reaction to OUR non-canon ship, especially not without considering the nuance in how we ship them(you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about). A lot of you call yourselves proship, but after recent debacles, it's not a label you deserve.

[allthingswhumpyandangsty]

put in the tag your favorite misunderstood blorbo

[tea-time-with-london]

1: i do not get creelarke, steddie and harringrove at all.

2: if billy and henry were poc much less ppl would be defending them.

2:the byler fandom is the most toxic shipping community apart from steddie and harringrove and im saying this as a member of the community who actively posts. there is this this air of elitism when ppl talk about the general audience. like some bylers talk about them like they're above them when in reality its ok to watch a show and not get invested into the fandom and analyse every detail. also the discourse is horrible, like chill mate

Confession #84

Steve was going to be shipped with whatever conventionally attractive white male walked within 5 feet of him, unfortunately, even if he only had a 3 minute conversation with one of them. Steve doesn't canonically like Eddie or Billy either, so those ships are irrelevant to me and baseless anyway. And Creelarke...what. How do people come up with these things?? Whatever. I'm over half the ships in this fandom. I'll never understand them, but it is what it is.

I've never actually seen anyone defend Henry and quite actually I have no idea how anyone could. I don't really see anything to defend.

And yeah, the way some people treat the GA is just downright ridiculous. I'm sorry some of the people in your community are incredibly toxic. The elitism is so gross to me, and it's definitely prevalent in all three of those fandoms, in my opinion. I'm just basing that on my own experience though. Others might have a different experience, but yeah. It's gross either way. I dislike most of the ships people come up with because I dislike fanon ships, but I'll never act like my preferred canon ships are elite. I'll stay in my lane and ship my canon ships and other people can do what they please as long as they're not being flat out assholes to other people.

[gmaybe666]

sorry

[heartbreak-sandwich]

HI, YOU WANT TO KNOW WHAT I SIMPLY CANNOT COMPREHEND ABOUT FANDOM DISCOURSE/WANK/BULLSHIT?! It's that we all can't just enjoy things and coexist together and also enjoy and appreciate that we're all loving the same universe that our characters came from even if we like/dislike different characters???

Remember this is FICTION. FICTION!!! We are enjoying fictional characters from a fictional world and adding and building onto the things we love or want to see for them and that's fiction, too!

People aren't bad people for liking, understanding, relating to, or wanting better things for a character that resonated with them or they felt like building a new story for. You are also completely allowed to dislike a character, not agree with the actions of a character, etc. until the end of the world. That's okay!!!

FOR EXAMPLE: I think that Henry Creel/Vecna/One was obviously a deeply disturbed and evil dude. I believe that with my whole heart, but I also believe that his character was masterfully written, he was a phenomenal asset to the storyline, and I also believe that it's totally okay and sometimes even INTERESTING for people to write deeper into his character, give him a redemption arc, be attracted to his darkness because that's human nature AND THIS IS FICTION!!!

This becomes a real world problem when people become so enraged over the existence of a FICTIONAL PERSON to the point of pushing hatred and bullying onto REAL PEOPLE for participating in and loving a fandom (the same fandom as you, mind you) because that's no longer a fictional problem, and we can't rewrite the world we live in, unfortunately.

Please just be fucking nice to people, man. Why can't we all just discuss things, learn from each other, and be a part of the same world and people we all fell in love with? We're all just big nerds for a fucking TV show, and I love that, and I want to love everyone else who loves it, too.

[messrsbyler]

if you understand that brenner was el's abuser and el was his victim, then you can't not understand that brenner was also henry's abuser and henry was his victim. is henry still the villain? yes. is he a monster? 100%, that's not the question here. we are talking about the origin story, if you will, and that's not henry himself who was born rotten and broken. someone has to break the jar in order for it to be broken. thinking henry is naturally bad like that actually takes the blame away from the abusers (virginia and brenner).

[flamecoloredparadise]

henry tag has been messy lately

[bebx]

Bullying people to the point they deactivate or were told to unalive themself over a damn fictional ship or a headcanon is not okay or normal in any way, shape or form. Bullying and harassing people are never okay, no matter what the circumstances are. But it’s even more wild when you think about how some people will go as far as telling literal strangers to do horrible things to themselves over a damn fictional ship that isn’t even real life, or a theory/headcanon they don’t agree with. Like… you’re willing to harass real people over something that is fictional? Please get help, and I mean this in the least sarcastic way. If you think a part of being in a fandom — a place in which it’s supposed to be a safe place for people to escape their reality for a while — is harass people you don’t agree with, then please seek professional help.

[parkitaco]

i will admit that my knowledge of the current st discourse rn is limited to what my correct and right mutuals have posted about but i will say that arguing that lonnie byers is not an abuser when that’s literally intentionally textually implied whilst simultaneously insisting that henry creel was abused bc of evidence from like one singular frame is the kind of mental gymnastics typically only seen in toxic alpha male subreddits

[stranger-rants]

What I find interesting in all of the “Billy is worse than Henry Creel” discourse is that there is a widely-loved character who was groomed by Henry, abused by Brenner, isolated (albeit with good intentions) by Hopper, and shows more violent tendencies than Billy ever did: Eleven.

Eleven is a violent character who uses her power - power nobody else has - to exert her will. She forces a boy to piss himself in front of his classmates. She attacks Lucas for arguing with Mike. She attacks a man in the dead of winter, knocks him unconscious, and steals his clothing - possibly killing him if he doesn’t wake up before freezing to death. She tries to lash out at Angela with her powers, and later beats her face in with a roller skate. She even ripped Max’s skateboard from under her just for being near Mike. Hell, one of the very first things we see her do is break a doctor’s neck when they try to force her into solitary confinement.

All of these things are trauma responses. Bullying, raised voices, loss of control, desperation for survival - all of these things trigger aggression in Eleven just as Neil’s abuse and isolation trigger it in Billy. They’re both teenagers with a history of abuse and little to no support system. They’re both “bad” abuse survivors (except Billy didn’t even survive). So why are people so critical of Billy, but not Eleven? Is it her age, her gender, or the fact that her violence is mostly fantastical in nature?

Eleven is such an interesting character, but people are too busy infantilizing her to really think deeply about her trauma. She has a lot of empathy, but she’s also been groomed to use violence as a means to solve her problems. No one is teaching her how to cope with these new situations around her. Any time she does something wrong, she’s punished or she’s yelled at. She’s left feeling angry and ashamed and she’s got few healthy outlets for that. She has all of these complicated emotions inside of her, and that’s how she is able to relate to Billy. It’s also how she’s easily manipulated by others into doing what they want her to do - Papa, Henry, …even her own friends who she’s seeking approval, but it’s through her friends that she’s assigned as a “good survivor” who has “righteous” rage because the people she hurt “deserved” it, and it’s for that reason that so many people don’t want to have an open and honest discussion about what trauma can do to children, especially making them violent.

[allthingswhumpyandangsty]

I’m all for write whatever the fuck you want when it comes to fanfics. so this is in no way to suggest you “shouldn’t” do this or that you could “do better” but rather a reminder for writers whose blorbos are anti-heroes or villains or someone who aren’t saints in canon that it’s more than okay for you to write them as Who They Are in Canon. there’s absolutely nothing wrong with writing AUs, but I think AUs where the blorbo is still in character are more enjoyable than the ones where all the personalities of said blorbo were erased in order for them to appear as “a ray of sunshine” when that’s not who they are in canon. this doesn’t apply to only AUs because I’ve come across so many fics in general, that are not AUs, in literally any given fandom where the blorbos, who have questionable moralities in canon, are portrayed as someone who could never ever hurt their significant others (whether it be another blorbo or y/n if it’s reader-inserted fics) and sometimes it gets to the point where the blorbos become more of the writers’ original characters than who they are in canon. which, for readers, can suck out the fun of reading said works if they have trouble imagining their blorbos saying things they wouldn’t say in canon, or doing things that are the complete opposite of their personality traits, for the sake of being sweethearts to their significant others.

if your blorbo would be a manipulative asshole to their partner in canon, you could write them as a manipulative asshole to their partner in your fics. this doesn’t mean they can’t have any character development where they learn to be a better person in the end, but to have them be “a saint” since the beginning when that’s the opposite of who they are in canon can be so out of character and it can take away all the charm of who they canonically are, which is unfortunate.

also I’ve learned that a lot of writers, who write their blorbos as sweethearts in their fics when they’re villains in canon, write them that way because they’re afraid of being “cancelled” by the fandoms, which is bothersome to me. because, like I said, write whatever the fuck you want, writers should be able to write anything they want without the fear of their irl moralities being judged because of how they enjoy fictional stories. if your blorbo is a villain and you want to write them as a villain in your fics, go for it. and if the fandom police call you a “freak” or a “red flag”, respectfully say fuck you to them and continue doing whatever you want.

I mean if you personally want to write your villain blorbo as a ray of sunshine, then good for you. I’m not going to tell you what to do or how to enjoy things you enjoy, and I’m happy that you’re doing what you love. but if you feel like you have to write your villain blorbo as a saint because you might get cancelled otherwise, ask yourself if you’re still enjoying what you’re doing. another reminder is that fandoms and writing fics should always be about what makes you happy and what brings you joy, it should never be about pleasing strangers on the internet.