#st creel timeline weirdness

[aemiron-main]

Who Is Edward Creel? If You’re Confused About Him, Read This Post

So, I’ve been seeing a lot of people asking about Edward Creel and who he is and what the hell people are talking about with him, so I figured I’d make a big general post about Edward. You can skip to the end for a bulletpoint TLDR summary.

Where Did Edward Come From?

I originally noticed him here, in the Indianapolis Gazette article about the Creel murders, and made an initial post about his name just being a reference to the idea of Vecna using Eddie/Edward Munson as a corpse puppet.

However, as I went through more of the Indianapolis Gazette, I realized that this goes WAY, WAY beyond “corpse puppet Eddie,” references, and rather than “Edward Creel being a reference to Edward Munson,” it’s actually the other way around, and Edward Munson is a reference to Edward Creel and has multiple lines that reinforce the idea of Edward being Vecna rather than Henry.

Here is a large post about some of the timeline differences, and it’s a post that’s been sitting in my drafts for a LONG time and is what initially prompted me to look further into the multiple timeline stuff/the concrete differences between Edward’s timeline and Henry’s timeline.

As far as “where did Edward come from in-universe?” goes though, THAT is a much more complicated question, one that I’m still trying to answer.

Who Is Edward Creel?

So, who IS Edward? Well, I very much think that Edward is Vecna, and here’s why:

1.) I talked in this post about the parallels between ST and Jekyll and Hyde, specifically regarding Henry Creel and Edward Creel versus Henry Jekyll and Edward Hyde, and how Jekyll and Hyde and ST tie into Carl Jung’s theory of the shadow. I would recommend reading that post for a solid intro into the idea that Edward is Vecna and the relationship between Edward and Henry and Edward being Henry’s “shadow self”.

2.) Eddie/Edward Munson is literally Vecna in the DND game- just like how Edward Creel is actually Vecna, they’re meant to parallel eachother.

3.) All of the name weirdness where there’s that whole scene with Robin and the Hawkins gang being uncle to figure out what to call Vecna (Vecna or Henry or 001), and how even though the supposed plot twist was that Henry was Vecna, it’s actually that 001 was Vecna, and we don’t know for sure if Henry is 001 due to the Edward weirdness, and all of the continued debate about names after the supposed plot twist/reveal tells me that we still aren’t done learning about who Vecna actually is. Especially since at the end of S4, Will just talks about “him,” and how he can still feel him, and doesn’t name him. You’d think if Vecna was Henry, they’d throw in a reference to Henry there, and that in general, they’d draw a stronger link between Henry and Vecna rather than drawing that link between 001 and Vecna, which is what they’ve done.

4.) There's some other reasons too, but I'm still finishing up the analysis posts for those.

How Is Edward Creel Connected To Henry Creel?

So, this is a question that ties into the question of “where did Edward Creel come from in-universe?”, and as such, is also a difficult question to answer. However, right now, these are the main theories about where Edward came from and how he’s connected to Henry (none of these are in any particular order, like 1.) isn’t the top theory or anything):

1.) Edward was split off or cloned from Henry in Hawkins Lab as part of Brenner’s attempts to recreate Henry, and then something happened with timeline and time travel weirdness, and Edward ended up with his whole own timeline where he grew up in the Creel house instead of being cloned/born in a lab.

2.) Edward and Henry are eachother’s naturally-occurring equivalents from different timelines, and one or both of them and/or the lab were messing with time and ended up swapping timelines/temporal displacement stuff.

3.) Henry and Edward were born as actual brothers in the same timeline but something happened with timelines splitting and they ended up in different timelines.

How Is Edward Connected To Timeline and Time Travel Weirdness?

So, I already talked about this post where I compare Edward’s timeline with Henry’s timeline and all of the drastic differences, but it goes beyond just different timelines, because we have all that imagery of Henry/Edward turning back a clock with his mind, and all of the general timeline weirdness/time travel imagery in ST, in addition to Vecna’s clock imagery.

I’m still figuring out exactly what happened and how he’s connected to Henry and timeline weirdness, but there’s definitely a big connection there, especially considering birthdaygate and the fact that in Edward’s timeline, the Creel murders happened on Will’s birthday.

Transcription of The Indianapolis Gazette Article Involving Edward

So, this is just a transcription of the article relating to the Creels, not all of the articles in the page (although I AM finishing up analysis posts of those articles).

Paper Title: Indianapolis Gazette

Publication Date: Thursday, March 26th, 1959. (MIGHT say 1958, but most likely 1959)

Article Title: 3 Dead as Police Probe Grisly Scene

Subtitle: Bodies Left Mutilated, Eyeless, Creel Defiant

Column 1:

Bulletin

"Local family man, Victor Creel, murdered his wife and two small children Saturday night.

The bodies were discovered early Sunday morning after Creel was found wandering aimlessly along the side of Highway 49, South of Hawkins.

Deputy John Snow from Hawkins Police Department intercepted Creel and made the discovery upon returning him home. The bodies of three persons have been found inside the home of a 35-year-old Town of Hawkins Roane County family man. Law enforcement officers searching Sundary Morning for signs of foul play found the bodies of Virginia Creel, Edward Creel, and Alice Creel strewn about the foyer of the house, six miles from downtown Hawkins.

Sherif fJack Kaulfield of Roane County and Director Larry Peacefield of the State of Indiana Crime Laboratory kept newsmen from the site Sunday.

Roane County Dist. Atty. ParkerJones said today that Creel had broken his silence that he "might of" killed the victims and admitted to being present when the victims died. Shortly after 11 o'clock, this morning, Creel was taken from the jails at Hawkins by Jack-" (article cuts off)

Column 2

"Officers who had been at the scene said these things were among those found at the Creels' home: The eyeless, mutilated body of Mrs Creel, "butchered, like you would clean a deer," according to one law enforcement officer. The mangled and eyeless bodies of the two young children- Virginia and Edward- laid deflated and bent on the floor of the foyer. Creel at first told authorities he knew nothing about the things that occurred at his house. He is decribed as 5 feet 10 inches tall, weighing about 158 (?) pounds, with light skin, light brown hair, and "appearing slight and unable to perform basic motor functions"- a condition likely brought on as a result of the psychological consequences of committing the murders, said head psychiatrist at Pennhurst Asylum, Alexis McMurry. Creel was known around town for his generosity and the Creel Family was regularly seen at Sunday Mass at St. Phillip's Catholic Church on Sundays. Which has led many locals to wonder what led Creel to commit such ghastly acts. A veteran from the second world war, VIctor Creel served two tours of duty in Europe and returned home a hero. After moving to-" (article cuts off)

Caption Under Photo

House of Horror

Here is the house in which the Creels lived for the last two years where authorities found the remains of Alice, Edward, and Virginia Creel- Victor Creel's wife, son, and daugther- Early SUnday in what police are calling "the most grisly set of murders the town of Hawkins has ever seen"

What Is Edward’s Timeline/Thw Indianapolis Gazette Timeline?

Here’s the key events and info that you should know if you’re interested in Edward’s timeline/the Indianapolis Gazette timeline:

Edward moved to Hawkins in 1957 and lived there for two years.

Edward’s father is Victor Creel, and his Victor is 35 years old as of 1958.

Edward’s mother is Alice Creel, and her age is not listed.

Edward’s sister is Virginia Creel, and her age is not listed.

The Creel Murders happened on March 21st, 1959 in Edward’s timeline.

How are Connie Frazier and Alice Creel and Mike Wheeler and Eleven Connected To The Edward Timeline?

Remember how I mentioned that Edward’s mother is named Alice, NOT Virginia (unlike Henry, whose mother is Virginia)? Well, that’s who “Mother Alice,” is (if you’ve seen me using that name on my blog), and I also think that she’s Connie Frazier.

I originally posted here about Connie being Henry’s sister, Alice, prior to the realization of how she connected to the Edward timeline, but then that turned into the realization that Connie is more likely Edward’s mother, Alice, rather than Henry’s sister, Alice. I’d recommend reading that post, so I’m not going to retype it all here, but the name “Alice,” plays repeatedly in the song “White Rabbit,” when Connie is on screen. I’ve got more Connie posts here and here. Mother Alice’s death in the Hawkins Middle School hallway in S1 even parallels Daughter/Sister Alice’s death at the Creel house in 1959.

In this post, I talk further about Connie being Mother Alice, but I also talk about something/someone else in that post- Karen Wheeler.

I think that Karen Wheeler is Sister Virginia/Virginia Creel from another timeline (the Edward timeline). I’ve got more posts about Karen being Daughter Virginia and Virginia-Karen parallels here, here, here, and here.

As well, @henrysglock has a bunch of great posts about how Eleven ties into this, as Eleven is likely Edward’s daughter in one timeline (daughter in the sense that he’s her biological father due to Brenner trying to recreate Henry/Edward).

However, if Eleven is Edward’s daughter in the Edward timeline, and Karen Wheeler is Edward’s sister in the Edward timeline, then doesn’t that make Mike and Eleven blood cousins? Yes.

I posted here, here, here, and here, about Edward Timeline Victor being Karen/Daughter Virginia’s father and therefore being Nancy, Holly, and Mike’s grandfather.

Summary

So, here’s the current main thoughts to know about Edward Creel:

He was originally found here, in the Indianapolis Gazette.

He is very, very likely Vecna, rather than Henry Creel being Vecna.

He has a timeline that is different from Henry Creel’s timeline.

Even in the definition of a timeline as “a series of dates,” and setting time travel/multiple timeline weirdness aside (even though he IS very much involved with that) his series of dates is canonically, indisputably, different from Henry’s, thus, literally different timelines even in the most basic sense.

His mother is Alice Creel and his sister is Virginia Creel, the opposite of Henry’s mother and sister.

The Indianapolis Gazette DOES NOT mention Henry Creel at ALL. ONLY Edward and mentions him repeatedly as being Victor Creel’s son.

Edward’s father is still Victor Creel, but his Victor is younger than Henry’s Victor, as Edward’s Victor was 35 in 1959 and Henry’s Victor was 40 in 1959.

Edward Creel lived in Hawkins for two years, and moved there in 1957.

In Edward’s timeline, the Creel murders happened on the night of March 21st and were discovered on the morning of the 22nd (Will’s birthday), whereas the murders happened on the night of March 25th in Henry’s timeline.

Edward Creel’s body was supposedly found with his eyes gouged out (whereas Henry slipped into a coma after 7 days and did not lose his eyes), however, in both Henry and Edward’s case, there is ALWAYS the possibility of the lab creating fake bodies, which is what I think happened, especially since we see the same State Troopers involved with Will’s fake body arresting Victor.

Edward’s sister and mother also likely survived, which is where we get into more speculation, because I have the initial post here about Connie Frazier being Alice Creel and then a post here about Connie Frazier being Edward’s Mother/Mother Alice/Alice Creel from another timeline and about Karen Wheeler being Edward’s sisters/Sister Virginia/Virginia Creel from another timeline.

I’m still figuring out exactly how Edward and Henry are related, if they’re a.) just eachother from naturally-occurring alternate timelines, if they’re b.) twin brothers from the same timeline but separated into different timelines scientifically or supernaturally or c.) Edward being Henry’s clone as a result of Brenner trying to recreate Henry in a lab or split off from Henry, or vice versa, and then Edward getting to live at the Creel house/experience the Creel murders via timeline weirdness even though he was “born” in the lab.

There’s also a solid chance that there’s multiple Henries (possibly even three or four, for example) and one Edward, or multiple Edwards and multiple Henries etc etc, because there seems to be multiple timelines happening, and also there’s multiple different Henries/Edwards during NINA, all with different blood splatters on their jumpsuits, and all with completely different, changing child corpses during their massacre sequences.

There is a “Richard Brenner”, listed in the S1 final episode article about Will’s vanishing, and Edward and his timeline is likely connected to Richard Brenner rather than Martin Brenner, or Henry is connected to Richard and Edward to Martin, I’m still figuring that out.

Some of the S1 scenes, specifically the ones involving Connie Frazier, seem to be occurring in the Edward Timeline (or one of the Edward timelines/the Indianapolis Gazette timeline), because if Connie Frazier is Mother Alice Creel, then she exists in the Edward timeline, so when we see her, we’re seeing Edward’s timeline. Unless, of course, she got mixed up into another timeline, which is always an option.

I’m suspicious that Edward was watching the Creel family from the void or from another timeline (see: Will’s “True Sight”/however he was able to see the alphabet on the Byers’ wall from the UD in s1 and was “trapped in the walls”/in the Byers’ house) and that Edward is what Victor was “sensing,” in the attic, much like Billy sensing/seeing El in the void in s3 and Mike seemingly sensing El in the void in s2. Will being “trapped in the walls,” of the Byers’ house is likely going to come back with Edward and Henry in S5 and Edward being “in the walls,”/watching the Creels from the void or from another timeline.

One of the “Henries” monologuing to El during the massacre is very very likely Edward

Regarding what I said about Mother Alice being Connie Frazier and Daughter Virginia being Karen Wheeler in the Edward timeline, that would make Victor Creel the grandfather of Mike, Holly, and Nancy, and would make Connie Frazier their grandmother.

And if El is Edward’s daughter from the lab and Brenner trying to recreate him, then that would mean that Mike and El are blood cousins in the Edward timeline.

List of My Posts About Edward

Here’s a current list of my posts about Edward, and I’m finish up a new pinned post/directory that’ll have a continuously updating list of links to my posts about him! (here is the link to the edward pinned post section)

Who The Fuck Is Edward Creel? Original Discovery of Edward Creel Post (x)

Edward Creel is Vecna and Henry Creel is Innocent: The First Shadow, Edward Creel, Henry Jekyll and Edward Hyde, and Carl Jung’s Theory of the Shadow (x)

Initial Post About The Creel Murders Happening On Will’s Birthday In The Edward Timeline (x)

NOTE: I use “Henry” in this post because this was before I connected it to Edward being a separate person, so just swap “Henry” for Vecna, but the Indianapolis Gazette IS the Edward timeline.

Confirming That The Creel Murders Happened On Will’s Birthday In The Edward Timeline (x)

NOTE: Same as the other post, use “Henry” in this post because this was before I connected it to Edward being a separate person, so just swap “Henry” for Vecna, but the Indianapolis Gazette IS the Edward timeline.

The Creels’ Disappearing Door and Magic, Colour-Changing Wallpaper (x)

Birthdaygate and When Did The Henry-Edward Split Happen And Was Edward Watching The Creel Family From The Void Or Via True Sight From Another Timeline? (x)

Edward Creel and the Lost Brother (x)

Edward Creel is Totally Vecna- Eddie’s DND Scene (x)

Edward Munson and Henry Creel and Being Blamed For Murder (x)

Revisiting The “If We Just Go Based On Henry’s Monologue, We Would Have No Clue Alice Even Existed Until The End And He Never Mentions Her By Name” Post With The Context Of Edward (x)

The First Shadow: Shadow(s) of The Past and LOTR (x)

The Shadows of The Past Have a Very Long Reach (x)

The First Shadow: Demons In Your Past (x)

Edward Being Bolded On The S4 Movie Board (x)

You’re Not A Child vs I’m Not A Dog And Henry Or Edward Being “Not A Child” (x)

Edward and Henry and 001 vs 000 (x)

Henry’s Colour-Changing Socks (x)

I Don’t Know What That Thing Is But It’s Not My Son- Victor, Henry, Edward, and Vecna (x)

Why Are We Seeing Through The Eyes of Someone The Same Height As Henry So Often? And Why Did Henry Look Up At The Camera? (x)

How Does Timeline Theory Stuff Tie Into Other Events In ST and How Does It Tie Into The Themes of ST and How Are The Duffers Going To Pull It Off Without Blindsiding the GA? (x)

Something Was Wrong With Me Vs What Is Wrong With My Boy (x)

Lost In The Darkness vs Hiding In The Darkness vs Hiding In The Shadows vs Good At Hiding (x)

Is Sam Owens Edward’s Father/Victor Creel From Another Timeline? (x)

“Well, my hair was buzzed and i didnt have these sweet old tatties yet”- Another Eddie Munson vs Edward Creel Parallel (x)

Just Move Your Date This One Time: Edward and Moving Dates (x)

All Your Theories About It Are Wrong, Because I’ve Seen One and Fought One: Edward Creel is Vecna/001 (ft Which One Is It?) (x)

The Lab IDs That Kali Dumped Out Vs Edward and Henry (x)

Edward Creel and the Criticism of Eddie Munson Being a Pointless Character (x)

Henward’s Plinko Reflection (x)

Henward Standing Like Alice Vs Standing Like Young Henward (x)

That’s The One: Will and 001 and Edward Creel (x)

I’m Eleven, You Long Haired Freak (x)

Edward, Eddie, and Straitjackets (x)

Joseph Quinn and Jamie Bower Doing Press Together, ST5, and Edward Creel/Vecna Using Eddie Munson as a Flesh Puppet So That Jamie Is Freed Up To Play Henry Creel (x)

Reblog of Stav’s Post Regarding Edward Creel, Eddie Munson, Reefer Rick, Richard Brenner, and Will’s Vanishing vs Eddie Hiding Parallels and Eddie Being Mistaken For Rick (x)

Eddie The Banished vs Edward Creel and Eddie’s Death Scene vs Edward Creel/001 Getting Sent To Superhell (x)

[aemiron-main]

STARING AT KAREN POSSIBLY BEING EDWARD’S SISTER/THE SISTER VIRGINIA. IF EL IS *EDWARD’S* DAUGHTER THEN THAT WOULD MAKE HER AND MIKE ACTUAL COUSINS HELP

I FOR ONE AM NEVER EVER GOING TO BE NORMAL AGAIN I KNEW THAT GIRL WAS A CREEL LOOK AT HER HANDS AND THE FACES SHE MAKES I CANNNNNN’T

I’m placing my bets RIGHT NOW 😭😭😭

[greenfiend]

Hi!! Ive been really enjoying your blog and your Will flayed Hopper theory and all the back to the future parallels...

and now I've been wondering about Nancy and Jonathan with how they parallel to George and Lorraine from back to the future and what that could entail? especially with the whole "mom was trying to bang her own son" and how the 8flix guy said that nancy is Jonathan's mom in someway

idk if it's connected or not so I'm wondering what you might think abt it!

Flayed Hopper theory

8flix post

Thanks anon!!!

In regards to Jonathan and Nancy paralleling Marty and Lorraine… hmm… been thinking about it.

Cycles are a huge thing in ST. Everyone seems to be repeating them.

Nancy and Joyce definitely have similarities. Both were obsessed with finding someone in ST1 and discovering truths. They’re both very strong women that don’t let others push them around.

I also know that they’re some timeline weirdness going on. If you haven’t seen the Edward Creel theory posts check them out.

Now I do know this 8flix guy is onto something though… you know why? This reference:

Obvious BttF reference. Jonathan falls while putting on his pants the EXACT same way Marty does! Here’s the kicker: this is the scene where Marty first meets a younger Lorraine aka… his mother…

[castleclerics]

possible origin for the idea of edward creel from the og inspo: montauk project, and other parallels

edward creel truthers pls listen to this part of this interview i’m gonna throw up

if you don't know, this is Preston Nichols, who wrote the book “The Montauk Project: an Experiment in Time” which is where the conspiracy that inspired ST originated from. in this interview he’s talking about Al Bielek, who was also involved with Montauk and their experiments for ref.

(I DO NOT KNOW WHY ET IS COVERING HIS FACE DONT ASK ME)

EDWARD?? NEW FAMILY????? GET ME OYUT OF HERE ,

(he also explains a lot of timeline stuff in there if u wanna look but it's hard to copy word for word bc he veers off a lot lmao)

i already knew about the Montauk MK-Ultra relations but only now am i finally relating all the experiments with time to all the time fuckery in this show

so Al claimed his name was actually Edward Cameron and to be one of the missing crewmen from “The Philadelphia Experiment” aka "Project Rainbow". here's some backstory:

so when this ship vanished it was said that a green or blue fog took it's place. which is so funny especially because what i believe the ST fog to be is a visual representation of when a timeline or dimension switch happens. and Al claimed he slipped through time at random and landed in 1983 at Camp Hero because of the vanishing ship.

like Vecna's victims get dragged to a different plane of existence or timeline when he has a hold on them (hence why they are no longer in their physical bodies) so cue the blue-green fog.

and at camp hero they did a lot of experiments with broadcasting to new alternate realities and time experiments. Duncan Cameron was used for these and they started to realize he could manifest objects outside the current time and they would appear hours or days later. which falls in line with ST. we see objects changing places especially right after some weird time-related thing just happened.

for example Joyce always "misplacing" her keys after shit happens to Will the night before, or Will's walkie falling in the bathroom but being right by his feet on the field.

eventually Duncan could open an aperture and they started abducting boys aged 10-16 to send through the portal (probably what Preston is talking about in that interview)

*cough cough Brenner controlling Henry or whoever tf to commit mass murder maybe who knows*

and their first training mission was always sending them way back in time to a world in ruins and without life.

RAAAAAAAAAARARRARARARDRFDFDHSHF

Preston also claimed there was a large on-site library of videotapes for every mission

so that's cool

last fun thing is that this video of Preston is interesting because he has this sound room in his house and he lays down and listens to the swan lake theme and says this is the same recording they played at Montauk "for the matrix or the background of the transmissions(?)"

he also has lights set up that flicker with the frequencies of the music yayyy

bro it just reminds me of Victor with DALDOM and he says vague stuff about how your you can travel to different places mentally by doing this and he sees weird activity like people appearing out of nowhere LIKE SHUT UPPPPP

i think i covered everything all this digging was from months ago and i didn't take notes like an idiot so i had to research it all over again so i hope i didn't miss anything i originally wanted to include but this shit is wild !!!!

[erikiara80]

ST and Rose Red parallels

Rose Red is a 2002 miniseries scripted by Stephen King

Plot:  Dr. Joyce Reardon, an unorthodox university psychology professor, leads a team of psychics to the massive and antiquated Seattle mansion known as Rose Red in an attempt to record data which would constitute scientific proof of paranormal phenomena. The mansion is publicly thought to be haunted, as at least 23 people have either disappeared or died there and the interior of the house appears to change or increase in size, yet only from the inside. Reardon's team awakens the evil spirit possessing the house, leading to several deaths and the revelation of the mansion's deadly secrets.

The stories are different but there are some interesting parallels between Rose Red and the Creel House, between Joyce Reardon and Brenner, and between Rose Red and the Upside Down.  

So, even if all the weirdness was caused by time-trickery/ someone/something messing with timelines, for Henry it started in that house. In fact, it seems that he developed his powers in Hawkins, not before. So maybe the new house (the whole town?) is different. And that’s why Henry’s powers got activated there. 

If this was true, Hawkins would really be “cursed” (kinda) 

The haunted house is such a classic horror trope. Rose Red, the Overlook Hotel, the Marsten House. Only in this case, it would have a sci-fi twist. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Duffers, who are big nerds and love horror, made it even more original than what we think. Like. Maybe this seems the classic horror trope, but the Creel House (and Hawkins too?) is more like the Island in Lost.

Something connected to time, or the UD. Or both. So the rose could be a parallel with both Rose Red and The Dark Tower (spoiler) a story about a time loop.

Now back to the parallels

The Creel House 

Ah this one! Thank you @lilitblaukatz​ for pointing this out. I knew Henry’s obsession with building reminded me of something!

Also

Hmm

The spirits of the house keep telling Annie Come home! Imo, that’s a bit like the Join us behind Will, or Vecna’s I want you to join me

Rose Red feeds on people’s psychic powers, and in the group of psychics, the targets are mostly Annie, a telekinetic girl, and Steve, who has inherited the mansion. Also, two siblings lived in the mansion, a boy and a girl. And Annie has two dolls. A boy and a girl.

It’s always a boy and a girl (Will and El)

Rose Red

The Creel House (there’s a baby carriage there too)

Rose Red

The Creel House

And the Upside Down

In S2, Owens tells Hopper that the gate is growing

Will also says that the tunnels are growing, spreading, killing

Rose Red also grew on its own... That’s why I think the house has even more parallels with the UD than with the Creel House. Rose Red wants to grow. The UD is about to invade our world and the vines have always tried to spread.

Other interesting things

This is for the prequel

The number of victims 

So, twenty-three victims. And John Rimbauer, Red Rose’s owner, was killed by his wife in 1923.

1923 is mentioned in ST S1 but we still don’t know if it’s relevant to the plot. I think it is, and the person could be the skeleton Joyce saw in the library in 1x08, since Hopper mentioned this story to the librarian

One more thing. Argyle says something about dominos falling. It could mean many things, but it’s interesting that in Rose Red Annie always plays with dominos and in the end she uses them to destroy the house.

[aemiron-main]

stranger things the first shadow and jekyll and hyde and carl jung’s concept of the shadow and edward creel is vecna and i can prove it

So! This caught my eye today:

I know there’s a lot of talk regarding how the MF is also called the shadow monster, and I’m sure that plays into it somehow, but I also wanted to talk about Carl Jung’s theory of the shadow. Jung’s theory is basically as follows:

The Personal Shadow

“The personal shadow is comprised of those qualities, impulses, and emotions that we cannot bear for others to see and thus cast into the hidden domain of ourselves. It is made up of the parts of ourselves we deem unacceptable. For many people this means things like our sadness, rage, laziness, and cruelty.”

Keep this above definition in mind.

"The personal shadow personifies everything that the subject refuses to acknowledge about himself and represents ‘a tight passage, a narrow door, whose painful constriction no one is spared.’”

Staring directly at the fact that the art of Henry for The First Shadow parallels the poster of Will looking out a door, at the shadow monster and there’s so much door imagery in ST. Will’s even got his shadow behind him, just like Henry does.

TLDR: a personal shadow is basically everyone’s “bad” qualities but they’re not always inherently bad.

Jekyll and Hyde are considered an example of somebody vs their shadow self/personal shadow.

“If we hold certain values and recognise these consciously then the opposite values may form part of our shadow. The shadow is not just restricted to values but the example of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde illustrates the point well. Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde clearly manifested different values and these were translated into differences in their behaviours. Taking this further we can also see that sharing values would lead to a ‘shared’ shadow – the opposite of these values. The group would collectively hold unconscious and opposite values with the potential for projection.” (source)

The Collective Shadow

And so, remember how I said that I think that the Shadow Monster/the MF would play into this? Well, part of the shadow theory is something called a collective shadow.

Long story short, the collective shadow is considered the dark side of humanity, the sum of all past and present atrocities and abuses.

And we know that Henry had a whole speech about the dark side of humanity.

“The collective shadow, like the personal shadow, is relative in that it will be partially culturally determined/dependent on culture. It consists of things which opposes a culture’s conscious, shared and collective values.”

I won’t be surprised if the Shadow Monster/Mindflayer is meant to be representative of a collective shadow, a representation of the shared hateful/biogted beliefs of the people of Hawkins, a representation of all of the atrocities and abuse that’s occurred, including to people like Henry (in the lab and in the Creel house, ESPECIALLY considering the stage play being in 1959/tied to the Creels moving to Hawkins and also tied to the idea of the shadow via the title). But the people of Hawkins aren’t all inherently awful, because the shadow represents the opposite of their values/beliefs, and some peoples’ values/beliefs contradict eachother’s.

The First Shadow

So- the first shadow? It’d possibly be either a.) the first Henry/the original Henry or b.) the first new, separate sort of Henry, possibly a separate consciousness or an entirely separate Henry (staring at the Henry Creel vs Edward Creel weirdness in the Creel murder newspapers, staring at Henry Jekyll and Edward Hyde being the full names of Jekyll and Hyde). And keeping in mind that Edward Hyde was Henry Jekyll’s shadow- so then, Edward Creel would be Henry Creel’s shadow. And look at that art for the stage play again:

In this image, who is literally Henry’s shadow?

Vecna.

In the Henry Jekyll vs Edward Hyde and Henry Creel vs Edward Creel section, who was Henry Jekyll’s shadow?

Edward Hyde.

Which makes Edward Creel the shadow of Henry Creel. But Vecna is also Henry’s literal shadow in that image- oh wait, that makes both Vecna and Edward Henry’s shadow. Don’t people just have one personal shadow, though?

Yes. Because Vecna and Edward Creel are the same person. Henry Creel is not Vecna, Edward Creel is. Vecna and Edward are interchangeable, and they’re both Henry’s shadow, just like how Edward Hyde is the shadow of Henry Jekyll.

Edward is Vecna, not Henry. Even simply in a metaphorical sense, Henry is not the same as Vecna, Vecna is Henry’s shadow.

Conclusion

We’ve got the personal shadow, the collective shadow, and the first shadow.

And the personal shadow is considered the bridge to the collective shadow, in the sense that the collective shadow is made up of humanity’s personal shadows.

So, Henry’s shadow was likely the first one, the first shadow in that collective shadow- and what does the collective shadow represent? What is it comprised of? The atrocities and abuses of humanity and the values deemed negative by a culture. So, Henry himself being an outcast and being deemed negative as a child, and abused by the town and by the lab, and becoming the first atrocity in the collective shadow over Hawkins, the first personal shadow in that collective shadow.

Everything with the shadow sounds so extremely Vecna, with how he’s showing his S4 victims their own shadows, the parts of themselves that they refuse to acknowledge, the parts of themselves that conflict with their egos and ideals.

To confront one’s shadow is considered to be confronting the truth- and Jamie himself said that Vecna is fixated on truth.

And again, the collective shadow is made up of personal shadows. So, if you want to resolve the collective shadow/kill the shadow monsters, you need to resolve everyone’s personal shadows first.

Which is what Vecna was doing. He was literally forcing his victims to confront their personal shadows. He is attempting to kill and change the collective shadow of Hawkins because of how that shadow/those cultural beliefs have outcast and hurt him. But because he’s doing it by committing atrocities, he’s simply creating a new collective shadow/shifting those values/being a hypocrite. He think he’s destroying those hateful/harmful values, but instead, he’s just making his own twisted/still harmful version of them. I’ve talked repeatedly and constantly about characters like Vecna and Eddie being hypocrites and how for all of things Henry lists in his “eat sleep wake up,” monologue, he himself has his own twisted version of things, and this ties in perfectly with the collective shadow theory and the idea that Vecna is trying to destroy the collective shadow/bigotry/hate/abuse of Hawkins but is enforcing his own bigotry/hate/abuse in the process.

And going back to Henry not being Vecna, remember how the personal shadow is defined?

“It is made up of the parts of ourselves we deem unacceptable. For many people this means things like our sadness, rage, laziness, and cruelty.”

And so, if Vecna is Henry’s shadow (which, that’s exactly what we see on the poster), then that means that Vecna is comprised of things/traits that Henry deems unacceptable. Meaning that Henry didn’t share the same values as Vecna/Edward. Meaning that Henry is a good guy. Which, that doesn’t mean Edward is evil, especially not with the idea of Vecna being the result of Brenner merging himself with Edward, and Vecna and *Edward’s* values being different.

It’s also worth noting that Henry himself is very paralleled to Mairon (Sauron’s form before he became evil), and Annatar (his fake good form), but Vecna is the one paralleled to Sauron. Sauron, who poured his cruelty and his malice into the one ring. Sauron, who is described frequently as a shadow.

TLDR: timeline weirdness and Henry Creel vs Edward Creel and Edward is Vecna, Henry is not Vecna, and Henry is not responsible for Vecna’s actions.

Henry Creel is innocent. Any complaints can be forwarded to Henry Creel’s personal defense lawyers (@laozuspo and I, James also has great thoughts about Jekyll and Hyde vs Henry and Edward.)

[aemiron-main]

the creels’ disappearing door and magic, colour-changing wallpaper

So, we’re not only seeing two different versions of the Creel murders in Dear Billy and The Massacre at Hawkins Lab- we’re also seeing two different Creel houses entirely. In chatting with @henrysglock, there’s some noticeable differences, but specifically, one room.

See that room in front of “Henry”? The one with the white door in it and the green wallpaper?

Yeah, that’s this room:

They are 100%, absolutely, undeniably, the same room in the same part of the house. The Creel house can be a maze sometimes, but this part of the layout is undeniable.

But if those are the same room, then where did the door go? And why did the walls change from green to red?

I would be willing to bet that the UD version of the Creel house has green wallpaper in that room, with a white door. As well, Max and Lucas are in the timeline where Victor talked about Henry, and are also in the timeline where the wallpaper is red.

Meaning that this guy, whose house has the green wallpaper:

Is Edward.

There’s also something rattling in my brain about Henry/Edward having two almost identical cardigans, the only difference being that one is red and one is green.

Max and Lucas also talk about a door to a secret lair when they’re in that room- a room that just happens to have a door that disappeared. A door, that interestingly enough, would have led to Victor’s study.

And when we see the UD version of the Creel house, the entry to that room is conveniently hidden every time.

Here it is, cut JUST out of view by the camera angle:

Here it is again, it’s hidden by Nancy’s head this time:

[aemiron-main]

your timeline is wrong

This whole scene is so suspicious considering everything I’ve been talking about lately with people being in the wrong timeline and general timeline weirdness.

Murray’s timeline is wrong. And what excatly was his timeline?

Oh look. The second note. 8:15 strikes again. But that’s the wrong timeline. There’s something here regarding eightfifteengate and time weirdness and the time stamps on Will’s camera going haywire on halloween (a JVC camera that’s the exact same type as the one in Back to the Future). The fact that 8:15 shows up when Will goes to the UD- he’s in the wrong timeline.

There’s something here, I can feel it in my bones.

It’s also weird as hell that the newspaper clippings on that wall with the “wrong timeline,” says boy(s) still missing and three hunters missing- what boys? Shouldn’t it just be one boy, Will? And it was only two hunters who went missing, Dale and Henry. So why does that say three? It’s the wrong timeline. There’s also something rattling about boys missing and the Edward vs Henry stuff.

[aemiron-main]

the repeating names are going to make me lose my mind

AUGHDHDHHHHV THIS IS ALL MAKING ME INSANE. THERES SO MUCH HERE OMG SO!! Let’s go through this because there’s SO many repeating names.

Extended List of Repeating Names

Alice

Current Alice list:

Alice Gilbert

Alice Creel (Victor’s daughter)

Alice Creel (Victor’s wife in the Edward timeline)

Henry

Current Henry list:

Henry (the hunter)

Henry Creel

Chrissy

Something that’s really gnawing at me with all of the Chrissy stuff is how similar early versions of Chrissy’s hair were to Karen’s hair and how similar Chirssy’s final ponytail style is to Alice’s hair. I’m staring directly at the whole “Karen is Daughter-Virginia from the Edward timeline,” thing and how much the Cunningham family parallels both the Creels and the Wheelers. And like you said, the Creels’ car is an oldsmobile.

Current Chrissy list:

Chrissy Carpenter

Chrissy Cunningham

Pete/Peter

Current Peter list:

Pete Freeling

Petey McHew

Peter Owens

Peter that Brenner mentions on the intercom

Peter Ballard

Peter Bingham

(Also staring at the fact that Peter Pan is on the S4 board)

Jack

We’ve also got Sheriff Jack Kaulfield, who's mentioned in the Indianapolis Gazette article about the Creel murders:

Max also has an Uncle Jack:

Current Jack list:

Col. Jack Sullivan

Jack mentioned by Jason

Max’s Uncle Jack

Sheriff Jack Kaulfield

Patrick

They also re-used the name “Patrick.”

We have the Patrick from S4.

But then there’s also this Patrick from S1.

Current Patrick list:

Patrick the Lab Guy from S1

Patrick McKinney

Rick

I’m also staring at “Rick Neary,” vs Reefer Rick and all of the Ricks on the video store computer vs Richard Brenner being mentioned in the S1 newspaper article about Will’s vanishing.

But even better, jumping back to that Patrick scene from S1, we also learn of a Mr Schaeffer in that scene- a RICK Schaeffer.

Current Rick list:

Rick Neary

Rick Schaeffer

Richard Brenner

Reefer Rick/Rick Lipton

Rick Alderman

Rick Conroy

Rick Joiner

Rick Kimsbrough

Rick Maher

Rick Matteson

Rick Maranjo

Rick Pratt

Rick Sanchez

Rick Tobler

Rick Zimmerman

Edward

Current Edward list:

Edward Munson

Edward Creel

Larry

The name Larry is also frequently re-used.

We have Larry the Lego construction guy from the S4 Surfer Boy Pizza scene with Will and Jonathan.

We have Larry Kline:

And we have Larry Brantley:

And we also have Larry Peacefield:

Current Larry list:

Larry the Lego construction guy

Larry Kline

Larry Brantley

Director Larry Peacefield of the State of Indiana Crime Laboratory

Brantley and Bradley

And then there’s the whole Brantley vs Bradley thing that I talked about in this post.

Max’s mom’s boss is also named Mr Bradley:

And we've also got Bradley's Big Buy:

And Philip Bradley from the Weekly Watcher article about the Creel murders (see the Philip section for his screenshot bc I ran out of image room)

Currently Bradley list:

Mr Bradley (Susan’s boss)

Bradley’s Big Buy

Philip Bradley

Something else that caught my eye is that during the Mr Bradley conversation, Max talks about “letters,” and then when Robin says Bradley instead of Brantley, she talks about “words and letters.” (Max's "letters" line happens RIGHT after the Mr Bradley line)

Philip/Phil

Phil/Philip are also names that get re-used.

We have Phil Larson, who complained about stolen garden gnomes:

We have Chrissy’s dad, Phillip Cunningham:

We have Philip Bradley, the District Attorney mentioned in the Weekly Watcher article about the Creel murders:

We also have St Philip’s Catholic Church in the Indianapolis Gazette article about the Creel murders:

And honourable mention for Phyllis the Lunch Lady:

Current Philip/Phil list:

Phil Larson

Phillip Cunningham

Philip Bradley (district attorney mentioned in the Weekly Watcher)

St Philip’s Catholic Church

Phyllis the Lunch Lady

Jen/Jennifer

Current Jen/Jennifer list:

Jennifer Hayes

Jen Woo (the girl with Scott)

Charles

Current Charles list:

Charles the Weatherman, mentioned on the TV in S4

Pastor Charles (the pastor at Will's funeral)

Charles Sinclair

Becky

We've got Becky Ives:

And we've also got this Becky mentioned by Nancy to Steve:

Current Becky list:

Becky Ives

Becky (Girl mentioned by Nancy to Steve)

Diane

We've got Hopper's ex-wife, Diane:

And we've got this Diane on the TV in S3:

Current Diane list:

Diane from the TV

Diane (Hopper’s ex wife)

Sam

We've got Sam Owens. And we've got this Sam on the TV in S3:

Current Sam list:

Sam Owens

Sam on the TV in S3

John

We’ve got Deputy John Snow mentioned in the Indianapolis Gazette:

And we’ve got this John, mentioned by Larry Kline:

Current John list:

Deputy John Snow

John (mentioned by Larry Kline)

Lauren/Laurie

Current Laurie/Laura list:

Laura Cunningham (Chrissy's mom)

Laurie (mentioned by Nancy to Steve alongside Becky)

George

Current George list:

George Burness, who supposedly told Officer Callahan that he jumped off the cliff at the quarry and survived

George Smith, one of the early casting names for one of the characters for ST stage production before The First Shadow was officially announced

Eleanor

Current Eleanor list:

Eleanor Gillespie

Eleanor (El’s fake name)

Owl Imagery

AND OH MY GOD YES THERE’S SO MUCH OWL IMAGERY WITH HENRY/VECNA!!

We have the owl hooting when Will is possessed (no subtitle for this one but if you watch the scene, you can hear it clearly)

And the owl chess piece with Henry in the lab

And there’s the owl hooting when Max is running away from Vecna in the graveyard

And I’m sure there’s more that I’m forgetting right now.

And this might be a stretch but there’s something rattling in my brain about Eleanor Gillespie vs Alice Gilbert and the “G,” last names when thinking about the possibility of an Eleanor Creel (which, if El is actually a Creel, she’s likely Edward’s daughter, which would mean that Mother-Alice would be El’s grandmother, so I’m Staring at Alice Glibert).

Four Years

And the four years thing is definitely rattling something for me because two years is something that comes up CONSTANTLY in timeline analysis (Victor is two years younger in Edward’s timeline, Eddie Munson’s missing poster is off by two years, the Creels moved to Hawkins two years earlier in Edward’s timeline, the Creels lived in Hawkins for two years in Edward’s timeline etc etc). I haven’t seen a ton about four years specifically, but it’s gotta tie in somehow, because four years DOES pop up quite often.

And focusing on four years specifically and the fact that four years from the garage scene takes us to 1979, and that Hopper’s been back in Hawkins for four years and that it’s been four years since the elden tree campaign, and Eleanor Gillespie getting her head attacked during those four years and the massacre happening in 1979 and GOD WHAT IS GOING ON THERE’s DEFINITELY SOMETHING HERE!!!

It’s really interesting to me that Eleanor Gillespie got her head attacked during those four years, beginning in 1979, because shouldn’t that be the end of when El got her head attacked by 001, considering that she sent him to superhell? Unless, of course Brenner was the one attacking her mind. Staring at all of the weird, absolutely constant, Vecna-Brenner parallels… god.. what is going on here.

so @aemiron-main's recent post pointing out Hopper mentioning some girl named Alice got me thinking how it's strange how many minor randos mentioned have names that get reused later on the show.

definitely weird that Alice and Henry both get recycled. those are the big ones, but there are more.

not going anywhere with this, but fyi I think this is Henry. I don't know if it's the same Henry who went missing, but seems likely.

whoever Bev Mooney is, we have another BevMo in the mix - the news anchor who reports Chrissy's murder is named Beverly Moss.

and speaking of Chrissy:

Chrissy Carpenter is awfully similar to Chrissy Cunningham.

also the Creel family's car is an Oldsmobile

"give me those names again" LOL okay: we've got little Petey McHugh / Peter Bingham / Peter Ballard / Lab Peter (I've lost track of the various Peters of petergate), Reefer Rick, Lt. Colonel Jack Sullivan, and... whoever this Jack is:

a flayed Hawkins High student, presumably.

I was calling this a coincidence until I got literally here in the post realized that all of these are mentioned by/to/in connection with Hopper, and are all people introduced in Season 4.

the only s4 exception I've thought of so far is

btw I swear didn't somebody say something about Henry and owls once? "attacking heads"... "four years" being mentioned yet again in the first episode (when the kids are leaving Mike's garage)... '79-'83... I feel like I'm seeing something out the corner of my eye here. Eleanor Creel I'm rooting for you

that's all I've got off the top of my head, if you can think of more please jump in, I would love to see if there's a pattern here that holds up??

[aemiron-main]

“byler spicy headcanons” “byler tumblr discourse” “byler tag infighting”

bro… who is philip bradley? how does he connect to the creels & the timelines. like we know he was the district attorney at victor’s trial in one of the timelines but there’s so many references to bradleys and henward (see: the #1 at bradleys sign in s3)

how does he connect subtext-wise to phil callahan who also mysteriously resembles one of the cops from TFS (a cop that happens to be played by the same actor as walter henderson vs dustin’s original last name in the early stages of ST being callahan)

and how does THAT connect to phil larson from s1 who kept getting his garden gnomes stolen vs lonnie stealing mr newby’s baby jesus from the nativity set in TFS but Lonnie also being mistaken for Victor in the scene where Lonnie admits to stealing the baby? Especially, again, with Philip Bradley being the District Attorney for Victor’s trial in the Weekly Watcher timeline? And especially with the stolen garden gnomes vs the stolen baby jesus vs patty being referred to as “the girl he (mr newby) stole)” vs becky ives talking about how “the big bad man stole jane away” vs henward being stolen from victor on the night of the murders vs the whole “stolen child” thing with changelings and walter calling patty a “foundling”?

And how does all THAT connect to Phillip Cunningham (Chrissy’s dad) being so paralleled to Victor?

And how does all that connect subtext-wise to the creels going to st philips church in the indianapolis gazette timeline? Vs Mr Newby seemingly running the unnamed church in TFS but also not being a priest despite being listed as father newby initially?

And how does all of this tie to Hatch talking about bradley vs brantley at pennhurst?

How does it all tie together. What is with all the philips/phils? Whats with the bradleys?

[aemiron-main]

what the fuck is up with brenner’s hair?

These pictures are supposed to, canonically, be only a few HOURS apart, on the same day (the day of the massacre), and yet, his hair is DRASTICALLY different- it’s thinner on the left, and all white and lacking the dark grey roots.

“Oh, but Em, it’s just that harsh training room lighting making it look lighter”

Well, let’s compare two different training room scenes with the same lighting:

The wig on the right has much darker, grey roots, whereas the first wig has those white roots. The one on the left is also thinner, with more scalp visible.

And if showing both hairstyles in the same lighting from the same angle wasn’t enough to convince that they’re different, then what about the fact that these are are two different wigs entirely:

We have that grey wig in the bottom middle and the 1979 white wig on top. They’re two different wigs. Theyre two different Brenners. We also have two different “good morning” scenes on the day of the massacre, something I’m still working on an analysis of, because that would track with two different Brenners/timelines.

And the fact that the middle, grey-haired wig is tilted so that we can’t see the label/date? Suspicious as fuck.

There’s also that weird as FUCK bottom left 1979 stringy/mostly bald Brenner wig that looks suspiciously familiar:

[aemiron-main]

can’t believe i’ve been told that i’m reaching with multiple timeline stuff when these lines are literally in the damn show

what part of “many worlds” and “parallel universes” equals “smh timeline stuff and multiple henries is a total out of left field reach” to some of you guys???? i think you’re watching a different show tbh

Also, the many worlds interpretation was first introduced in 1957- the same year that Edward Creel moved to Hawkins.

[aemiron-main]

OHHHOH This is very interesting, because March 22nd was the morning that the Creel murders were found in Edward’s timeline, and is, of course, Will’s birthday.

22

22 seems to be very relevant.

@aemiron-main weren't you asking about how 2 is relevant in the show (because off 2 day time skip in S4 and potential 2 year time skip in S5)?

It's not 2 but 22. So I don't know if it's relevant for you.

[aemiron-main]

Murray’s Conspiracy Board and the Edward Creel Reveal

So, I just made this post about how that scene of Nancy looking at Murray’s conspiracy board very likely takes place in the Edward timeline.

Which brings us to a new thought for the Edward Creel reveal in S5- what if Edward is revealed via Murray’s conspiracy board?

After all, it’s the apocalypse and Murray has a bunker, so it would make sense for the characters to end up there (possibly including Scott too) and for them to see the board.

And with Murray investigating the lab/his clear grudge/suspicion towards it (see: him waving when it gets shut down) and Murray having a bunch of newspaper clippings about all of the various disappearances/murders in Hawkins (including one with a headline about multiple boys disappearing):

Then it would make sense for him to know about the Creel murders and have newspaper clippings from them- specifically, newspaper clippings about Edward Creel.

Especially with the talk in S4 about Victor possibly breaking out of Pennhurst- I wonder if Murray had the same thought about Barb’s disappearance? Which sounds like a stretch until we consider this weird picture on his board that almost looks like one of the Pennhurst buildings in the show:

And may in fact be a picture of the actual IRL Pennhurst (not just where they filmed it, but the other place Named Pennhurst)- it definitely looks more like the actual IRL Pennhurst than the place they filmed at (which would make sense if they knew they wanted Pennhurst back in S2 but didn’t know exactly where they would be filming yet for S4):

And also, jumping back to Scott for a moment, something that haunts me is the fact that Murray mistakenly thought El was Russian on the same board where his “timeline is wrong”:

Vs Alexei being called a “Russian Scott Clarke” and all of the Scott timeline weirdness (here, here, here and here)

Like. WHAT IS GOING ON HERE???

And also, we have this “reward” poster for what seems to be a missing cat- and it parallels Will’s missing poster.

Which, the cat poster paralleling Will’s poster is interesting for three reasons:

1.) how frequently Henward is associated with cat imagery (all the cat stuff for TFS, the silver cat vs vecna, the taxidermt lynx in the creel house, victor talking about a wildcat, etc)

2.) part of the word “reward” is cut off in that shot of the cat poster, just leaving “ward”- almost like a tiny Edward crumb.

3.) Will’s missing poster is later paralleled to Eddie’s missing poster- where Eddie is listed as Edward.

I won’t be surprised if that conspiracy board comes back to haunt us- and if it’s part of the Edward Creel reveal, maybe with Murray talking about how he knows about an Edward Creel, but not a Henry Creel. And maybe Scott will be the one to notice the newspaper clipping or something- I’m BEGGING for a scene of Scott and Murray arguing over Henry vs Edward Creel (which would parallel Nancy and Murray arguing in front of the conspiracy board, because while Murray had all of the “facts”/newspaper clippings about Barb, Nancy had the firsthand experience with her. Just like how Murray would have all of the newspaper clippings about Henry/Edward, but Scott would’ve actually known Henry/had the firsthand experience).

[aemiron-main]

A Freshman?? Something Weird Is Going On With Henry’s Age And EVEN MORE FIRM EVIDENCE FOR MULTIPLE TIMELINES!!

So, James sent me this pic:

And it’s bizarre, frankly, because Henry should be 12 (and therefore not a freshman) in 1959.

What’s really interesting, though, is the way they worded that sentence:

“And we can’t forget, Henry Creel will be a freshman when we turn back the clocks to Hawkins in 1959.”

And it’s interesting, because this line about Henry’s weird age includes two things that are tied to Edward.

1.) the “and we can’t forget” part is tied to Edward based on what I talked about in this post regarding Eddie Munson vs Edward Creel and people not remembering Eddie Munson vs people not remembering Edward Creel.

2.) the “turn back the clock,” part is tied to Edward based on what I talked about in this post regarding the scene of Henward literally turning back the clock and why that’s likely Edward, rather than Henry.

Henry is 12 years old in 1959. This is canon:

But the play is also canon:

Which means that they can’t (and won’t) just change Henry’s canon age randomly for no reason- there’s something else going on here.

And also, something that caught my eye is the wording in that post, too- “canon event”, because “Into The Spiderverse,” is on the S4 board:

And a “canon event” in Spiderverse is an event that must happen/can’t be interfered with, because interfering with it can cause the destruction of the multiverse. It also tends to involve the loss of a parental figure and the death of a police captain, which has me staring DIRECTLY at a.) the Creel murders and Virginia’s death/Victor’s imprisonment b.) Alice being missing from TFS and c.) Hopper’s dad/the police chief being in TFS. Timeline fuckery/multiple timelines is afoot here for sure, as usual.

And it’s extra weird that Edward moved to Hawkins two years before Henry- and we don’t know Edward’s age. If Edward was 15 in 1959 (being 12 in 1957, when he moved to Hawkins), then it would explain why he’s a freshman.

They also didnt tell Raphael Luce who he was playing in ST4- he didn’t know that he was playing 001 until the day he got it tattooed on his wrist. So, the ST team/the Duffers aren’t above keeping information away from their own cast, let alone the audience.

However, there may also be a far simpler explanation for this (although, of course, the points about canon events and timeljne weirdness still apply)- the wonderful @reikunrei also pointed out that “freshman,” is also simply a synonym for “newcomer,” which is what Henry is in Hawkins:

So, there’s a chance that they’re just messing with us & chose to use the word “freshman,” because they knew it would confuse people/mess with them.

Anyway! I’m super excited for TFS because every day, things just get weirder!

[aemiron-main]

They Don’t Remember Him- How Could They? He Never Existed.

So, I talked in this post previously about how there’s frequent references to people not remembering Eddie Munson and how that connects to the subtext that Eddie Munson is delivering about Edward Creel.

And now that I’ve been watching Fringe, I noticed something else:

And

(Those screenshots of the bald dudes in fedoras are from Fringe, and they’re called Observers.)

We have all of these references to Eddie “Edward” Munson, who constantly delivers Edward Creel subtexts, being forgotten/not remembered by people (which then gives us the subtext that Edward Creel has been forgotten/people don’t remember him) versus the Observers talking about how Peter Bishop was forgotten/people don’t remember him.

And then we also have the reason why Peter Bishop was forgotten- it’s because he never existed, because he’s been wiped from existence/from both timelines. And we also have one of the Henwards (likely Henry) talking during NINA about how 001 supposedly never existed/Brenner claimed 001 didn’t exist, but he did.

There’s some sort of connection here!!!!

Peter Bishop was erased from existence- he was originally from an alternate timeline but was kidnapped as a young boy and brought over to another timeline/the main timeline and raised there. Long story short, this caused major issues/holes between the two timelines and the two timelines were trying to destroy eachother, but Peter combined them so that they could work together with eachother- and then, Peter immediately disappeared from existence.

And so, I’m wondering what the hell happened with Edward Creel, and why nobody seems to remember him, and why there’s a.) so many references to people not remembering Eddie Munson and b.) Henward’s line about 001 not existing.

And to top it all off, we have this line regarding Peter Bishop:

And yknow who else has traces of him bleeding through into the timeline?

Edward Creel.

(and it’s also worth noting that California Dreaming, which plays in S4 EP1 of ST, is also playing during rhat Fringe scene about traces of Peter.

And also, going back to that that line about Eddie saying that he wouldn’t even remember himself, it’s haunting me because of what I’ve talked about before with the idea of Edward believing that he’s Henry (and therefore not remembering himself/not remembering Edward Creel).

But yknow who likely would remember Edward Creel/who remembered 001 during that plinko scene with El?

Henry Creel.

Wouldn’t it be perfect if the only person who remembers Edward Creel is Henry Creel, and the only way for Henry to prove that he is, in fact, Henry (especially in the context of Edward believing that he’s Henry) would be for him to remember Edward?

It’d be perfect/ironic because you’d think that if there were two identical boys, one Henry, one Edward, but both claiming to be Henry, and one of them remembered Edward, the initial conclusion would be that the boy who remembers the name Edward must himself be Edward, right?

But because Edward’s forgotten himself/because that initial conclusion is wrong, the only way for Henry to prove who he is would be for him to remember somebody else’s name/identity/prove that the other boy is Edward. Like. Wouldnt it be ironic/right in line with the way ST enjoys subverting things if the only way for somebody to prove who they are was to remember who somebody else is? If proving their identity, the one thing that should be solely tied to them, was inextricably tied up with somebody else’s identity?

I think it would be perfect, especially considering the details of MKultra brainwashing/the way they tried to strip victims of their identity and individuality vs Henry being a MKultra victim who has his identity inextricably tied to somebody else’s identity.