#helena bertinelli meta

[fiapple]

something i love about huntress (1989) is just how succintly its opening scene builds up helena as a character & the overall themes of her narrative.

the comic opens on western society’s prototypical idea of a victim, a young white woman (that fact having its own horrid political history should be acknowledged)- fashionable for her era- walking alone at night, and being followed by a man with a knife.

Immediately, the scene visually cuts between the young woman & helena, tying them together in the eyes of the audience. it then plays out as so:

Huntress (1989) #1 by Joey Cavalier & Joe Staton

Both through the very explicit paralleling of the two women, and the lamp-shading thereof on the writer's part within the scene itself, helena is framed within the eyes of the audience as someone who herself has once been a victim. the creative team presents you with the one most archetypal examples of a victim they possibly could, though, again, the problems within the history of that fact can't be ignored either- one that for all its commonplace is still powerless and meek as ever, and said "our hero has once been her."

"I knew somebody with a name like that... a long time ago..."

By allowing the audience access information so early on, the creative team is quickly able to position helena as existent within a dichotomy of the struggle between the ongoing disempowerment of trauma, and the fight to regain one's sense of power thereafter, as seen through the lens of non-linear trauma recovery. It is planting the seeds of what will grow to be a major theme in helena's arc.

Additionally, it very quickly posits helena as a character who is, in part, motivated by the phantom of her own vicitimization. She is very quickly suggested to the audience to be a character that is doing this- doing all she can to fight, stave off, prevent acts of violence- as a form of penance both to herself and to the world for the moments in her own life in which she was unable to do so. It is put into the mind of the reader that she is followed by the wraith of her own suffering, and of knowing that the weight of trauma is one that others can also be forced to bear.

This is further reinforced by the immediate narrative focus the collaborators chose to place on helena as a figure of compassion. from her first scene in main canon, her focal point is the victim, so much so that when choosing to return to the scene to comfort the young woman, she is able to notice something as innocuous as a wallet and return it. Moreover, due to its atypical nature in the context of comics, the 'alley-way victim' being named with such a sense of gravity in this scene takes on an added layer of importance besides the aforementioned. The victim is humanized, emphasizing their centering in helena's concious motives. To further compound this, the first time we ever see helena speak on-panel is when she chooses to comfort this young woman. her words, her actions, her passion are all motivated by her own needs & wounds, yes- but the victim, the person being hurt, that is what is at the centre of them. if further evidence were required, one may even point to the fact that the first face we see at all is that of the victim's.

And, emphasizing the overall themes present within the introduction to an even more extreme extent, is the nature of the visual story-telling taking place on pages 4 & 5.

Page 4 begins with helena fighting the perp, her back turned away from the audience, but ends with her walking toward us, body language confident. This draws our attention both to helena's capacity to be imposing, to inhabit the position of the unknown in order to illicate fear, and to helena's individual power as a character.

Conversely, the first time we see helena on page 5, when her face is finally revealed to the audience, she is talking to the victim. It ends with her back to the audience, standing as if fixed in her position, taking up fairly equal panel space with her fellow as she watches helena k. walk off, and falls into a memory. this places the audience's focus on the fact that helena b. is just as, if not more so, consumed by her victimhood as her counterpart.

(this also sets up the following scene, in which we are given helena's backstory, exceedingly well btw)

Moreover, the visual choice to hide her face temporarily gives helena a sense of being quite guarded as a person, which will be expanded upon later, and shows that the dedication to character building started very early-on for Stanton & Cavalieri, which i really appreciate.

From the first breath of life given to her story, helena is deliciously presented as a byronic heroine- an unusual type of female character to see at all, let alone in comics- and it is done through focus on her agency as a character & her dominating sense of compassion for others.

Truly, I adore beyond my heart’s capacity just how much Staton & Cavalieri chose to dedicate their opening to showing just how much Helena is a character who finds the power to find personal redemption, empowerment, & rebirth- as violent and bloody as that rebirth may grow to be- in the ability she has to do good unto others, to try to allow them to retain the innocence that was taken from her by force & the closure she was denied. They put such energy into making it clear that she is a character so very deeply driven by a sense of compassion, one so consuming it may as well be keeping her heart in chains, and they portray it as equally served by her violence as tender-heartedness. it’s enrapturing, it’s enchanting. like, really, heart’s honour, i live for it.

[soleminisanction]

Once again got a bee in my bonnet to spend a night doing obscure fandom research to make a point, so. For all those people who keep making the annoying, "Tim keeps '''stealing'' other peoples' names" comments -- have a table.

EDIT: Updated version with some mistakes corrected.

Everyone with a check mark has used that codename at some point in DC's 80+ year continuity -- Elseworlds and alternate dimensions/timelines count, adaptations (movies, video games, cartoons, etc.) don't unless they've got comic book tie-ins, and neither do in-universe dream sequences/illusions/fantasies/other narrative elements that are objectively "not real" within the boundaries of the fiction.

A purple marker indicates an element that only applies in Elseworlds or alternate timelines. Yellow is for the originator of the legacy title. Star symbol is for borderline cases/extenuating circumstances/it's open to interpretation (with some further elaboration below).

The "other" column is just there to account for people who've held lesser or non-legacy titles, like Renegade, Wingman, Arkham Knight, Drake, Redbird, Talon, Deadman, Black Bat, Orphan and Catwoman.

Point being: the people who have actually gone through the most legacy titles in this family are Dick, Babs and Jason, tied with 5 each (again, not counting "other;" if we counted those separately Dick would've had by far the most). Tim is tied with Steph AND Helena Wayne, so unless you're whining about them "stealing other peoples' names" you're just wrong, and they're all only one higher than Damian, Carrie and Bruce.

This is a legacy family that passes their codenames up and down the inheritance line. It's what they do. It's not a legitimate criticism to level at one character and not the others. Please get over it.

---

Further elaboration on some of the lesser known/niche cases:

- Bruce uses the Robin ID in Superman & Batman: Generations, as well as the pre-Crisis Detective Comics #226 story.

- In the second half of Thrillkiller ‘62, Babs cuts her hair and dons the Robin costume worn by her deceased partner Dick to get revenge on his killer; however the only name ever used for her in the series is Batgirl

- Cassandra was a member of the Robins orphan gang from Dark Knights of Steel.

- Duke was a member of the We Are Robins gang, as well as the aforementioned DKS orphan gang, and has appeared as Robin in a couple of Elseworlds, including I believe a White Knight spin-off.

- Cass was Batwoman in one of the versions of the Titans Tomorrow, as was Bette Kane, depending on changes to the timeline.

- Babs is Batwoman in the Batman ‘66 comics and in the 1980 story “The Secret Origin of Bruce (Superman) Wayne”

- Earth-3 Steph is Batwoman in Young Justice 2019.

- Helena Wayne is Batwoman in the possible future story Last Rites

- Tim is a member of the Batgirls vigilante/little league baseball team in the DC Bombshells universe, as is Cullen Row. Some call them the “Batboys” instead. I call those people cowards.

- Helena Bertinelli wore the costume that would later become Cass’s signature Batgirl look during No Man’s Land. However, she was more often referred to as “The Bat” and her Batgirl status is up to individual interpretation.

- Dick didn’t originate the Nightwing name, it started with Clark in the Silver Age.

- Steph has never been Nightwing. The panel where she appears in the costume is a Black Mercy illusion that happens only in her own mind. It’s a dream sequence.

- Barbara was Nightwing in the Smallville Season 11 comics.

- Terry was briefly Nightwing in volume 4 of Batman Beyond.

- Damian briefly became Nightwing after accidentally killing Dick in the Injustice series.

- Dick is Oracle in the “Eight Wonders of the World” version of Earth 2 (aka the Black Superman dimension)

[necrotic-nephilim]

@sasheneskywalker i love when you enable me to ramble about things because oh my god do i have thoughts.

so recently, i made a post discussing the phenomena of DC x DP and DC x MLB crossovers and why they exist and part of that post was discussing how largely speaking, at least half, if not more of the Batfamily fandom doesn't read the comics. if they interact with canon DC material, it's adaptations that are their own sequestered universes and oftentimes not remotely comic accurate or seeking to be. the most obvious example is the Young Justice cartoon. i'm adding a cut to this post because it just got so long i'm so sorry.

a lot of times, when people are discussing the "why" of this oversaturation of fanon-only fandom, they blame Wayne Family Adventures. and i think, to a point, i agree WFA is responsible for a boom in this fandom. but as someone who's been in the fandom long before we had WFA, to me it's the other way around. WFA was DC's way of meeting the demand for this easy-to-get-into, easy-to-consume content about the Batfamily that predicates itself on the comics just enough to be vaguely the same characters, but has a more sitcom, slice-of-life sort of vibe so DC could profit off of this section of the fanbase that otherwise wasn't consuming its primary material. and well, it's definitely worked. not only that, but i have a weird theory that the decline in the MCU also led to the rise in the Batfamily fandom. when you consider the fan content that made the MCU popular within fandom, it's that 2012 "they all live in Avengers Tower and Thor is eating poptarts and Clint is in the vents and there are movie nights every Friday" sort of vibe. those were the fics that were a hallmark of the fandom. and as the MCU has strayed from well... quality content in general, but specifically well-thought-out crossover content where characters can have their own arcs but also exist in a wider story where they clearly care about each other, that fandom was sort of homeless. so where do you go, if you like a superhero found family where you can have villains for angst but also stick them all in one big family-like home for silly crack and have a plethora of options for gay ships? well. you go to the Batfamily. if you write a crack/fluff Batfamily genfic with silly vibes and low stakes instead of say, a fic about a very specific comic issue even if it's a popular comic, you're *going* to get more traction for the former. because the fanbase largely just isn't reading the comics.

and i feel... complicated about this. because on one hand, Don't Like Don't Read has been a tenet of my fandom experience. i'm very pro-fandom and that includes fandom content i don't like. and to an extent, i do think this sort of should apply to Batfamily fanon. i enjoy having my moments with other comic purists, giggling over exceptionally painful OOC headcanons or even facepalming in pain over some content but it is on me to not interact with that content. you don't make fandom a better place by being hostile to fans who engage with canon in ways you don't approve of. and frankly? we as comic readers are not going to get non-comic fans to read the comics by being asshats to them. no one is going to want to pick up any comic if we get a superiority complex about it. and also, i feel like we're all lying to ourselves a little bit insisting comics are so, so easy to get into. they're not. we can just all agree, they're really not. i've been single-handedly helping my sister get into comics, specifically Wonder Woman and no matter how simple i make it, i watch her get frustrated trying to understand what pre-Crisis and post-Crisis and New-52 and Flashpoint and all these things mean and what a retcon vs a reboot is and what a Crisis Event is and what the hell Diana's current backstory even *is*. sure, you can give someone a beginner list of comics to start with and slowly dip their toes in the water but sooner or later, *something* is going to confuse them. comics as a medium straight up aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea. and if someone *just* wants to read silly fluffy fanfiction about the Batfamily, i can't entirely begrudge them for not wanting to take the hours and hours out of their day to understand this medium. it's not an accessible medium to get into. "read this and this, but this run is out of print and this run wasn't collected in trades at all but also make sure you read that event in order and this is a good comic but the backstory in it is retconned and you *have* to read this it's so important but it's also really bad because the author kind of sucks" sounds. ridiculous for someone who like. just wants to read some stuff about Nightwing. sometimes, we all make reading comics sort of sound like a chore, not a hobby.

so my point is, i do extend some grace to Batfamily fanon for existing. i think my biggest gripe is, as i said in my other post, misuse of tags (if you're not creating content about comics, maybe you don't need the comics fandom tag on Ao3, just the all media types umbrella tag) and my far bigger gripe: when panels are taken out of context to support fanon only headcanons. if i could impart *anything* onto the Batfamily fandom as a comic fan it'd be this: if you haven't *read* the comic, don't spread the panel. if you don't even know what comic it's *from*, don't spread the panel. it's fine to use comic panels to discuss your headcanons, but so often i see someone spreading a comic panel from a comic they haven't read, and when asked where it's from, they can't source it. a silly example that comes to mind is a post going around, taking a panel where Dick, in his internal monologue goes "here comes the sun. do do do do." and the post is claiming it's from him getting buried alive. when that panel comes from Nightwing (1996) #140, and he gets buried alive in Nightwing (1996) #127, two completely different moments frankensteined together. if you're going to not read the comics, that's completely fine, but unless you're sure of the source and the context, panels shouldn't be spread around. i'm sick of this specifically happening to Red Robin (2009), with ppl claiming Tim has totally killed people because he blew up some of Ra's' bases, when those panels within context, make it clear he gave everyone time to escape. and in a later arc in that very comic, Tim grapples with the idea of murdering Captain Boomerang, and *specifically chooses not to*, because he doesn't agree with murder, even against the person who has hurt him the most. if you'd like to write fanfiction where Tim is pro-murder and has done some sketch things, i'm totally on board and would probably like to read it. but there's no need to pretend it's canon from a few panels you saw out of context.

beyond that, i think it's not *entirely* correct to say that fanon is harmless. whenever i see very WFA-positive posts, they often default to the argument that WFA is fun and silly, and comic fans are killjoys for not liking it. which. i think is complicated because the issue is, WFA and fanon don't exist in a vacuum. if you like WFA power to you, i don't think it's the worst thing ever, but i do think it's degrading to these characters because honestly? they feel incompetent in the webtoon. it's one thing if WFA was solely a slice-of-life sort of deal, just having silly episodes where Bruce is taking on a PTA mom or they're all fighting for the last cookie. but when WFA attempts to take on more serious plots with these characters, it *fundamentally* falls flat in understanding them. i get it, Bruce comforting Jason having a panic attack because a noise reminded him of the crowbar felt cute in a microcosm, but i'm so serious when i say that storyline destroyed how like. half of this fandom understands Jason Todd's relationship to his trauma. it doesn't understand how he reacts when he's triggered, what coping mechanisms he seeks out, and how he would handle Bruce comforting him. even if i can believe for a brief moment Jason *would* be triggered by something like that, him running and trying to hide and then getting a hug from Bruce to make it okay is just. painful. WFA needs everything to be wrapped up in a nice, neat little bow. so even when it starts to tackle interesting concepts, it makes them fall flat with its need to be soft, low stakes, hurt/comfort. there was a two-parter episode that dealt with the complicated mutual hatred/jealousy between Tim and Damian that *almost* really interested me because for once, it felt like the webtoon wanted to explore canon messy dynamics. but of course, it had to be fixed with one conversation and a hug. you don't mend the *years* of issues these characters have like that. WFA isn't in character because these characters are hyperbole cartoonified versions of themselves to fit within the medium and be a cute happy family.

because that right there, is the crux of it. the Batfamily fanon seeks to simplify the Batfamily and force them into a nuclear family. there are so many fantastic posts on here discussing how the nuclear family-ification of the Batfam is eroding decades worth of complex histories so i won't go too far into that. but what i will say is that there's this need, in the Batfamily fandom, for the Batfamily to exist as a unit. they are a *family*. (honestly i think calling it the Batfamily is a misnomer and has been for years but we're in too deep now.) they exist to each other first, and any teams or friends they have come secondary to this family unit. you can *specifically* see this demonstrated in what headcanons are becoming popular these days. i have an entire lengthy meta in my drafts about how i *loathe* the "the Batfamily meets the Justice League" genre of fanfic because it makes no *sense*. in order to have this genre of fic exist, you must operate under the assumption that no one in the League, or adjacent to the League, knows the Batfamily exists and are thus utterly shocked to discover Batman has kids. and to make *that* work, you have to strip *every single Batfamily member* of such important dynamics and friendships so you can lock them all in Gotham for their whole lives. Dick can't have the Titans, Tim can't have Young Justice, Duke & Cass can't have the Outsiders, Jason can't have the Outlaws, Damian can't have the Supersons, Babs can't have the Birds of Prey, and so on. because if they had these relationships, they would be known to the League. the Batfamily fandom doesn't care about this, it's just "silly fanfiction", it's not trying to be serious. but how can you say you like Dick Grayson as a character if you don't understand the Titans *are* his family? at some points of his life, moreso than the Batfamily even is. it is constantly repeated to us in most comics with Dick how much the Titans mean to him. he *needs* them to be who he is. the same extends to every other Batfamily member, most of which have been full League members at this point. but in fanon, that doesn't matter. the Batfamily are a sequestered unit first, and all of those side relationships are secondary and easy to toss away, if it makes your fanfic work better.

and because they have to be a unit first, you have these forced relationships that dump years of actual canon material for the sake of making them get along. the Batfamily fandom has its favorites and well. it's no secret it's usually the boys. Jason and Tim by *far* stand out as fandom faves so, their dynamic is a heavily explored one. it does matter that in canon they don't tend to get along and especially don't see each other as family. what matters is that you can push dynamics onto them. and so fanon gets all twisted up about which Robin Tim actually idolized as a kid (Dick) and what member of the Batfamily is pro-murder but still an older sibling figure to him and looks out for him (Helena, or if you want the dynamic of once tried to harm Tim but they've reconciled, Jean-Paul) in favor of who's the most popular. Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian are always going to be the standouts for popularity, but it's specifically Jason and Tim who are getting fanonized the most. and that's because really, we don't have much canon content of Tim that *isn't* the comics. for Dick you've got Young Justice (tv), for Damian you've got the DCAMU, for Jason you've sort of got the Under The Red Hood movie, but Tim sort of lingers in this limbo. (yes, he's in Young Justce (tv) and Titans (live action) but in neither is he the main character nor given much depth) so, he gets a *lot* projected onto him and has become fanonized. and even with Jason's animated movies, you don't see him interact with Tim, so people build it from the ground up how they want to see it, disregarding of canon comics. i think it's what makes him so popular in the first place- he's malleable into whatever you want or need him to be.

and of course, the fanon ignores other characters in the Batfamily it doesn't know about. i feel like you could create a tier list of Batfamily characters by their popularity, going from the fandom main characters: Tim, Jason, Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Damian. to the underrated: Steph, Duke, Babs, Cass. to the forgotten about unless they're convenient for a story: Kate, the Foxes, Helena Wayne, Carrie, Selina, Harper Row, Maps, Minhkhoa Khan. to the absolutely unknown: Helena Bertinelli, Jean-Paul Valley, Onyx Adams, the Clovers, Julia Pennyworth. it's not lost on me that the ignored characters tend to be women and people of color. which is both a canon and fanon problem, DC will continue adding interesting characters to the Batfamily, play with them for a few years, then drop them to default to the "Batboys" again. and it's a vicious cycle of the fandom only caring about the "Batboys", and thus people entering the fandom via fanon osmosis won't have content about the other characters, therefore, they won't be interested in those characters enough to create it, and it's just this ouroboros consuming itself, no matter how much canon content we have of these other characters. and it's ridiculous just how large the Batfamily is becoming because of this, which is why i'm a pre-Flashpoint fan, because then the Batfamily was contained enough to actually feel like a family with every character having nuances relationships with each other, but i digress because those thoughts could be their own post.

and the thing about fanon is it doesn't exist in a vacuum. DC has started turning the comics to accommodate for what fans are asking for, because fans will beg and beg for content they're not going to consume. Tim Drake: Robin had Tim as a coffee drinker because that's the fanon accepted headcanon. and the resolution of the recent Gotham War arc was for Bruce to buy this new manor for everyone to move in and call him. nevermind that most of these characters have their own homes and have zero reason to be moving in with Bruce. Tim had his marina in Tim Drake: Robin, Dick has Bludhaven, Cass and Steph have their little side of town in Batgirls (2022), and so on. these characters are being forced together as a unit, as one big happy family living together, to appease what non-comic fans want and it's damaging comic relationships. Robin: Knight Terrors saw Jason and Tim team up and working together, which i've seen varying opinions on but i personally despised. their interactions made zero sense for any of their canon history, but it appeases them being this close sibling relationship that fanon acts like they are. also the fears they faced in their respective knight terrors didn't make sense for either character and *only* worked as a moment of bringing them together so they could reassure each other and have this weird dreamscape bonding moment. the canon is bending itself to the will of fanon rather than building on the pre-existing complex relationships. Tim barely even gets along with his most important team in Dark Crisis: Young Justice because it seems the only important relationships the Batfamily can have is with each other. and when we do see them outside of the Batfamily, it only seems to be to relive the glory days like with World's Finest: Teen Titans, instead of developing them as they currently exist. this isn't recent in the comics, it feels like you can trace it back to the New-52, but it does feel a *lot* worse over the recent years. WFA is fine when it exists in its own bubble, but the simple truth is, DC content never exists on its own. the adaptations will reflect back onto the comics. (the damage the Young Justice cartoon has done to some characters should honestly be studied) and so it does frustrate me a bit when fanon-only or adaptation-only fans act like we're being nothing but killjoys for being frustrated with this. since they don't read the comics, they don't see how the comics are suffering as a result of this.

people argue about what's out of character for the comics they don't even read. i'm sorry, but "bad dad Bruce" is consistently canon. that man is just kind of shitty. when you take someone who has the drive he has, who has this need for the Mission first, who needs a teenager in spandex next to him to keep him off the ledge, that guy is sort of going to be a shitty father figure. he just is. not on purpose or with malice, but when you compare him to any other dad in a big DC family, he sure takes the cake. it's why characters like Oliver Queen tend to *really* fucking hate Bruce for how he treats his kids. Bruce loves fiercely, but he doesn't do well with putting that love first. and his love is a controlling one, he is very particular about controlling how others in the Batfamily are "allowed" to operate. it's what drives the wedge between him and Dick, it's why Steph is never a true daughter to him. (besides the reason of her needing to be a love interest to Tim first, anyway-) i've never understood the massive outcry of people reacting to Bruce kinda being shitty in comics they're not reading. there are some moments that get ridiculously OOC with how cartoonishly evil he is (the whole Gotham War arc and that... complicated mess with Jason) but largely if you want sitcom loving nuclear father Bruce, you have to accept that is a fanon thing, not a canon one. the Batfamily being a nuclear family in *general* is fanon. most of the "Batkids" don't actually see Bruce in a particularly fatherly light and begging for moments where he calls them his kids or they call him dad outside of incredibly specific circumstances is just OOC.

it's getting harder and harder to exist peacefully in this fandom it feels like, if you don't comply to the standard fanon has set. i'm happy people are having fun with their blorbos, even if in ways i dislike, but that "harmless fandom fun" does ripple it's way back to canon, eventually. so i end up pretty tangled with my feelings because are fans at fault for DC making these poor decisions? probably not, but it certainly feels like an unfortunate cause-and-effect situation whether at the end of the day, nobody is happy. and of course, i know some fanon-only fans are striving to be more canon accurate and care about canon dynamics more than others, but for them it's always going to be an uphill battle with the above-mentioned out-of-context panels thrown around and ever-pervasive fanon overtaking anything that's truly seeking to be canon compliant. so really, it sometimes feels like we're all losing.

[crim-bat]

Well I regret sending that anon now because I inspired a rude person to send one as well, sorry. I still disagree with the framing. The body of your post is dissonant with that “I’m a long time fan of Jason” intro. I see people saying damian shouldn’t exist because he and Tim are hitting elbows both being robin and Tim existed first, and the only rebuttal needed is “I think Damian is an interesting character and I like reading about him” and I say that because like him. (And that very wrong damian criticism is pushback against people saying Tim shouldn’t exist because he doesn’t have a place to be right now.) You not having a similar feeling about Jason just… seems like you don’t like him? Calling it cannibalism instead of just the characters being around for decades and the same ground being trodden, when there are other characters that do this as well, notably even ones you bring up as counterexamples. I’m not going to say anything else because I think I laid it all on your doorstep already, sorry again and have a good night

Hold up a moment. You dont get to call me rude after firing off first and walk away. Many people do think Tim shouldn't be robin anymore and actively complain that he's still not moving from a junior role to a graduated title. Red robin wasn't perfect but it certainly wasn't worse than him going back to robin.

I'd challenge you, dear anon, to ask yourself a question.

1. Has Jason ever had a good all caste story?

2. Has he ever had an actually good story when he went postal as an anti hero? Under the hood doesn't count as he was purely the antagonist then.

3. How about a good story where he worked with his brothers and him constantly having a chip on his shoulder was endearing like Damian?

4. How about a run where he was batman for a bit and then the real deal showed up to beat the snot out of him?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be any bleed into what other characters do but there's nothing creative with what they've done with Jason because it all relies on him fundamentally never having a defined niche, outside of crime boss, to call his own.

And because Jason is placed where other characters that are more established and would otherwise be a better match for a story and because Jason has fundamentally nothing going on that wasn't cribbed from someone else, including the first iteration of the outlaws which was just a worse version of the outsiders which were also dicks friends (that's a 5th and 6th thing he took from another character, dear anon), he lacks the foundation to tell his own stories properly.

Dear anon, Jason, as he is treated right now, is a middle child copy cat who deserves better than both the writers who created that situation and the fans who enable it. Including you, dear anon

[zahri-melitor]

Was just reading some fic and realised with a start that I hadn’t consciously noticed how divergent the “I’ve just heard about this moment” version of Dick beating up Joker in the Last Laugh is to the comics.

I mean, I knew that the “Croc tries to drown Tim, Joker is blamed for killing Tim due to arranging the situation at Arkham” bit doesn’t get communicated properly and gets boiled down to “Dick thought Joker killed Tim”. But HOW and WHY Dick stops is also missed. 

Fandom telephone says “Bruce revived Joker” and I really don’t think it was anywhere near that simple (and also the simple version is more likely “Tim revived Joker”).

Like, we don’t GET details of the resuscitation, but there were five heroes present. Bruce, Helena and Steph arrived together. You’ve got Dick having a guilt breakdown and Tim who had to HANG OFF DICK’S ARM to get him to stop.

Panel staging suggests that the most likely situation was that it was Tim and Bruce who revived Joker (and probably Tim initially), but the idea that Helena and Dick were also taking turns is so goddamn tasty.

Because Helena, who was thinking she’d seen the remains of Tim being EATEN BY KILLER CROC, walking in to see Tim desperately trying to revive the Joker? That Helena, seeing the hero she considers a little brother, performing CPR? Helena, who’s standing closer to Joker than any of the others when he wakes up? Who says “we should have let him die”? She 100% could have felt that it was a wasted effort and still stepped up to help her little brother Tim, because he’s just a teen like the students she misses. She could have helped while still disagreeing with the outcome. She’s played by the rules while disagreeing with them plenty of times.

And did Dick? Does he just have his breakdown while Tim’s trying to revive the Joker, or does he step in to help out of guilt and because a team effort is more effective? Does Bruce order him to help as a way to try and get Dick out of his head? How does it feel to have the hands that punched Joker in the chest to the point that his heart stopped be the same hands that performed compressions to try and restart it?

(I largely suspect Steph did NOT participate and may have been sent to scout the rest of the Cathedral, due to her mask being in place, probably being the least CPR-qualified of the group AND she hadn’t had a chance to go “Tim you’re alive!” yet. Helena would have current first aid via teaching, and Bruce would be religious about it for himself, Tim and Dick. And Bruce IS training Steph at this exact point in canon, so would be across what he’s taught her and what he hasn’t)

Anyway, I’m having a lot of feels about Joker: Last Laugh today, because the character dynamics are so tasty. 

[armed-with-a-waffle-iron]

Bat Family Ages (with Sources & Panels)

Notes: I'm NOT using a "year zero"; the calendar year before "Batman: Year One" is "1 Year Before Batman".

TLDR

Ages at the end of Preboot (Batman: Year Twenty)- Bruce (45), Renee (37-38), Kate (33), Babs (27-28), Helena (26-27), Dick (26), Cass (21), Jason (20-21), Steph (19), Tim (17 18), Damian (10-11).

D.O.B.-

Bruce Wayne- 26 Years Before Batman

Renee Montoya- 7th September, 19 Years Before Batman

Kate Kane- 14 Years Before Batman

Barbara Gordon- 8-9 Years Before Batman

Helena Bertinelli- 8 Years Before Batman

Dick Grayson- 1st Day of Spring™, 7 Years Before Batman

Cassandra Cain-Wayne- 26th January, 2 Years Before Batman

Jason Todd- 16th August, 2 Years Before Batman

Stephanie Brown- 1 Year Before Batman

Tim Drake-Wayne- Batman: Year One

Damian Wayne- Batman: Year Nine

Long Version

Bruce Wayne- 26 Years Before Batman

On the 4th of January, Year One, a 25 year-old Bruce Wayne returns to Gotham after 12 years abroad on 4th January, months before his first outing as Batman (Batman: Year One #1). Unless his birthday is between Jan 1-4, Bruce turns 26 the year Batman is born.

Dick Grayson- 1st Day of Spring, 7 Years Before Batman

Dick Grayson's origin story is appears in the tail end of Batman: Dark Victory, which takes place in the 4th and 5th years of Batman's career.

In its sequel, Robin: Year One, Dick begins attending Bristol Middle School. And in Batman & Robin (2009) #13, Dick, as Batman, tells the Joker he had already figured him out at 12 but The Joker doesn't appear in Robin: Year One. So, Dick is probably 11 when he becomes Robin, in Year Five (Dark Victory). Dick is 19 years younger than Bruce.

Important for later, Dick becomes Nightwing, aged 19 (Nightwing: Year One and Batman #116) in Year Thirteen.

Jason Todd- August 16th, 2 Years Before Batman

According to his death certificate, Jason Todd was 15 years and 8 months old when he died on the 27th of April (Batman Files). His birthday is August 16th (Detective Comics #790). At this time, Dick Grayson was 21, having left the Robin mantle 2 years earlier; at 19 (Batman #436). Jason is around 5 years younger than Dick. He was hence Robin for less than 2 years, from when he was 13 going on 14 in Year Thirteen up to 27th April, Year Fifteen.

Stephanie Brown- 2 Years Before Batman

Steph is 15 when she debuts as Spoiler (Secret Origin 80-Page Giant). At the same time as her debut comic, Deathstroke (1991) Annual 1 has Dick saying he, one of the oldest Titans, is no older than 21 (the age he was when Jason died). Dick is 6 years older than Steph. So Steph debuts in Year Fifteen; the same year Jason dies and Tim becomes Robin.

Steph becomes Batgirl right before her freshman year of university, aged 18, going on 19 (Batgirl 2009 #1). This is in Year Nineteen. Which means that Preboot ends in Batman: Year Twenty as Steph has not yet entered sophomore year. Convergence takes place after of course.

Barbara Gordon- 8-9 Years Before Batman

Batgirl (2000) #45 shows that Babs was already Batgirl at 18. As an adult, Babs is 5'11" and yet she did not meet the minimum height requirements for the GCPD or FBI during Batgirl: Year One. She must have become Batgirl before she stopped growing, and so was at most 16 during Batgirl: Year One. She also says that she is older than Dick in Batgirl: Year One but they must be close enough in age for them to go to prom together (Detective Comics #871). My theory is that Babs didn't go to her own prom because she skipped grades and was or felt too young so her high school prom was actually when she went with Dick to his. Babs is somewhere between 1-2 years older than Dick.

There's more evidence for this. Dick is already a Teen Titan during Batgirl: Year One and in New Titans #89 said that he knew Donna Troy since they were both 13. So Babs likely became Batgirl between Year Seven and Year Eight, when she was 15-16 and Dick was 13-14. Also, Dick and Babs have a picnic as friends 12 years before The Black Mirror, in Year Twenty, so these ages are pretty perfect.

Important for later, Babs is shot by the Joker just before Jason is killed and becomes Oracle before Tim becomes Robin. This is in Year Fifteen; she is roughly 22 here given that Dick is 20-21 at the time. No panels just math :P

Cassandra Cain-Wayne- January 26th, 2 Years Before Batman

Cassandra Cain debuts in No Man's Land aged 17 (Batgirl 2000 #1) and turns 18 on the 26th of January the following year, though she only learns this after it has passed (Batgirl 2000 #33). Later that year, Bruce brings her to Jason's grave on the 16th of August, the day he would have turned 18 (Detective Comics #790). She is 7 months older than Jason.

Helena Bertinelli- 8 Years Before Batman

Helena Bertinelli was 8 when her family was murdered and the events of Huntress: Cry for Blood takes place 15 years after, following directly after No-Man's Land. Huntress is hence 23 following No-Man's Land. Cass turns 18 soon after No-Man's land, so Helena is around 5 years older than Cass.

But, Cass is born in January and Helena could be born later in the year. Helena Bertinelli is 21 years-old during Huntress: Year One; when she becomes the Huntress. She soon moves back to Gotham after Carvinal in Venice (late Jan-early Feb), and encounters Barbara Gordon as Batgirl. Babs is at most 22 here so Babs is close to 1 year older than Helena and Helena is slightly older than Dick. Huntress debuts at the tail end of Year Fourteen.

Damian Wayne- Batman: Year Nine

Dick and Stephanie call Damian a 10 year old in Batman and Robin #2 and Batgirl #17. One takes place before Steph starts uni (since Damian appears in Batgirl 2009 #1) and the other takes place during Steph's second semester of freshman year (Batgirl #13). So Damian is 9 years younger than Stephanie. He first appears aged 9 at the start of Year Nineteen and becomes Robin later that year, aged 10.

Renee Montoya- 7th September, 19 Years Before Batman

In 52 #14, published in 2006, we see Renee's passport and date of birth: 9/7/1970. It is the 14th week of the year so she would be 35 going on 36. 52 takes place in Year Eighteen, the calendar year Damian turns 9, so Renee is 27 years older than Damian.

She debuts as the second Question in 52 #48 the same year, aged 36.

Kate Kane- 14 Years Before Batman

Kate Kane is 32 at the time of Batwoman: Elegy, in Year Nineteen, since she was in the same class at West Point as the real-life activist Dan Choi, which means that she was part of the US Military Academy Class of 2003. Damian is 10 at the time so Kate is 22 years older than Damian.

Tim Drake-Wayne- Batman: Year One

Tim's age is THE weird one because DC are hellbent on keeping him at 17. It's too much for my brain, like how is he still 17 in Red Robin?? Let's say he seems to be only a year younger than Stephanie Brown a la Secret Origins 80-Page Giant or that he was bitten by a strange vampire bat during the One Year Later time skip. Your pick.

Fun fact: Dick permanently becomes Batman at 25 (in Year Nineteen), which is possibly the same age Bruce was when he became Batman.

[trackingthehuntress]

I don’t think I could ever really pick a favorite thing about Helena, but something I think I’ve loved since the beginning of my love for her, - starting with cry for blood and going on to reading her other stuff - something I love is that she’s not really ever a character who gets fixed. Basically all of her connections in the heroism community (except for like. Dinah and Renee) have at one point or another viewed her as a problem, as someone who needs their solution, as someone who needs to be managed or manipulated. So many other characters look at her and see something that needs to be controlled, and at times the individual comics’ narratives agree with this and uphold it. But when you look at the whole of her character history, you see someone who never has the exact answer, who is never sure if she is actually a hero or still that scared little girl whose family was murdered. She’s always throwing away her costume only to pick it up again a few days later. She isn’t static, but her problems run deeper than ones that can be given a simple fix.

where was I? Oh right - she’s not a character who gets fixed. Because every person who thinks they can fix her, or control her, or agrees with people who try, or anything like that? It fails, in any way that matters. Think about max lord, think about batman, think about nightwing, think about oracle. Even if their plans succeeded in the short term, did they have any lasting effect on her or who she is? No - they all ended badly for someone, and only someone who recognized the harm of treating someone like this and apologized was able to get anywhere close to a healthy, meaningful relationship with Helena (that would be Barbara, by the way). So the thing that i love is that even when the people around her are all trying to shove her into a box and then fix the person they’ve imagined her to be, she is allowed to exist as this multifaceted person who has failures and flaws and struggles yes, but ones outside of the two dimensional person the people around her see her as.

[sassylittlecanary]

How the Arrowverse Failed Helena Bertinelli

Generally I’m a big fan of the Arrowverse, but I wouldn’t be the first to point out Arrow’s bad track record when it comes to adapting female comic characters.

Huntress was a perfect character to feature on Arrow — an edgy hero with a penchant for violence and vengeance, much like Oliver himself.

The issue is that Arrow decided to turn Helena into a villain who takes innocent people as hostages and kills relentlessly. Her motivation is that her father killed her fiancé, and for that, she single-mindedly hunts him down in every episode she appears in. When someone else kills him, she’s devastated because she wanted to be the one to do it. Moreover, she’s mentored and trained by Oliver, who views himself as responsible for “failing” Helena because he couldn’t get her to stop killing. (He even came up with the idea for her to use a crossbow!) Essentially, her entire identity and origin story revolve around men — her father, her dead fiancé, and Oliver. (Also — she slept with Oliver. As in, the lover/fiancé/husband of one of her best friends in the comics. I literally said “ewww” when they kissed. Show Dinah and Helena some respect, I am begging you.)

This is a huge disservice to such a wonderful character. In contrast, comics!Helena was trained by the mafia, and she fights them not because they killed her lover, but because she takes it on as a personal crusade to prevent them from hurting more people. She fights human trafficking and protects children. She does kill, and this sometimes puts her in a complicated relationship with other heroes like Batman and Oracle. Yet at many points, she actively chooses not to kill, not to become the darkest version of herself. Vengeance is important to her, but compassion and justice are also core parts of her character. She’s witty, she’s intelligent, she’s kind. She’s a well-rounded character who’s so much more than just a vigilante with a crossbow. Additionally, she’s most associated with the Birds of Prey, which provides an ideal setting to show her humanity and the evolution of her own heroism. Her close relationships with other women, Barbara Gordon and Dinah Lance specifically, make it even more striking that Arrow defines her based on her relationships to men. (Also, they position Huntress and Black Canary as enemies, which hammers another nail in the coffin of the representation of close female friendships.)

Considering how important female representation in sci-fi is, it’s frustrating to see a character who’s long been fleshed out in her friendships with other women turned into a bitter femme fatale whose actions have all been spurred by her relationships with men.

The Arrowverse has done a seriously good job with a lot of DC characters. Sadly, Helena isn’t one of them.

Also, she has one of the coolest costumes in DC Comics, and Arrow characteristically turns it into just another dark leather outfit with a domino mask. Boo.

[somewherefornow]

HUNTRESS: YEAR ONE (2008)

[angstandhappiness]

True

so many issues wrt the idea of responsibility and such in batfandom would be fixed if people remembered that leslie thompkins and selina kyle exist. like those scenarios people keep making up about protecting gotham’s infrastructure happen in the comics but because women are involved no one seems to give a shit. “why isn’t anyone offering support in the alley??” leslie is. “why isn’t anyone protecting the women and children of gotham??” selina is. “why isn’t anyone more involved with stopping the mob in gotham??” helena is. “why isn’t bruce more proactive in fixing gotham outside of batman??” who do u think funds leslie’s clinic.

[fiapple]

Helena's relationship with identity, & legacy, & self esteem just... they have me foaming at the fucking mouth. like, there's just so much going on there & she's so, so self-aware of so much of it and it's just- look, i'm not great at articulating myself but it is fascinating to me.

I'm doing a re-read/completion of read-through for her at the moment, and having gotten around to issue #2 again, it truly is amazing to me how much character work is consistently present in the writing, and from how early on. I know i already sorta talked about it in my post about the opening scene of issue #1, but truly the work put in on part of the author to establish helena as immensley psychologically nuanced, and from the jump, is something that goes so underaprecciated. like, there is so much there to analyze & to dig your teeth into. she's such, such, such a deeply internally rich character. And I'm going to use a particularly compelling scene from issue #2 as an example.

The Huntress (1989) #2

In the first chunk of this scene, Helena expresses a sense of determination that is deep to the point of becoming self-sacrificial. She's shown to view this as almost a form of resilence, if not a crusade, and on she feels an unyielding compulsion towards. She has to be "bigger" than them, becase that is what is required to fulfill her own personal mission, damn the cost.

However, this compulsion is also about survival. This is where we see one of many ongoing effects of helena's mafia-intwined upbringing. Having grown up in a powerful crime family, respect- or fear- is what she would have been taught gurantees one's ability to continue to live. It is the way of making certain that you will see tomorrow. even the violence she experienced as a child is put on to this, on to the assumption that a pervert with no respect was using her to get to guido.

This feeling is then expounded as helena begins to expand upon the cruciality of the huntress as a facet of her identity. She distinguishes "Helena Bertinelli" as someone who is weak, frightened, yielding, constantly at fear for her own safety. Someone who, in Helena's eyes, would never be able to garner the level of respect nor fear it would require to keep alive- a feeling that she is somewhat justified in considering the aforementioned mafia ties. She's shown to despises her own human capacity for cowardice, be that fear justified or otherwise, and just how much it has been pushed to a point of unlivability. it's the very foundation for her view of herself as someone who is weak.

And, not only that, but constant, corrosive, trauma-induced terror itself pushed her to an interal breaking point, to a point were her options were either to become someone else, or become nothing at all.

We see the learned behaviour of fear/respect as a shield collide with helena's low self-worth, along with her disempowered feelings as a result of trauma, and it is made explicit that this is why she created the Huntress.

She creates this ideal of strength, and fearsomeness, and respect, and empowerment that she can attempt to embody as a means of trying to survive. A not-her to fill her skin, someone who can choose to stand and fight, who's brave enough. In a way, doing this is the only means she has to face the world again at all!

The Huntress (1989) #2

The scene then continues, and the audience is given further insight into both the Huntress' role in Helena's psychology, and the level of self-awareness she has towards it.

Helena is shown to be cognizant of the fact that taking on the persona of the Huntress is a coping mechanism, and one that isn't neccesarily prudent at that. However, in spite of this, she still chooses to see the Huntress as being a seperate entity from herself, as a role that she steps into. It's as if, because she still feels the fear she so reviles, with it being 'part of "helena", she must refuse herself the ability to view it as also being part of the Huntress due to a need to find a sense of control somewhere. It's an approach to her coping mechanism that is self-depriciating by default, but a requirment to maintain her sense of security. additionally, she is conscious of much of the psychology at play behind her behaviour, but still chooses to feed into it's more questionable aspects because she doesn't know what else to do to survive. She's seen behind the curtains, yet chooses to buy into the narrative anyway.

Her overall self-awaredness is further punctuated by the complicated & conflicting morality existent within the role of the Huntress, and Helena's advertance thereof. In commenting that she is consumed by a need to avenge the bertinelli family, "right or wrong," helena is not only shown to have a complex relationship with the nature of her family's legacy- with the "justness" of their deaths- but also to be cognizant of how that complexity impacts the ethics of both her compulsions, and her acts as the Huntress... How sometimes it leads to her finding herself in a positon of ammorality to serve her own deserata, because this is what she was taught, and she does not know of another option that also allows her to feel as if she can take it. She was neither taught nor provided with another way of coping. And she knows it, she knows it and can discuss it quite articulatley, but she doesn't know what to do with it, or how to live without it, or where to put it down! It makes the next bit about the nature of denial within her family history all the more interesting.

See, in acknowledging her family's streak of denial in relation to the Huntress, Helena is showing awareness of both a generational cycle of learned behaviour, and how that learned behaviour influences her own pathology.

In this, she is positioning the persona of the Huntress as a justification. She is choosing to frame the role she takes on as the Huntress as that of one who does what must be done. Who "has to be" bigger than them. And, therein, she is using that assigned neccessity to negate the weight she feels as a result of the aforementioned ammorality.

This connection between the role of the Huntress & the generational passing of a tied denial & violence is further explored as Helena goes on to examine this behavioural-symbiote through the lens of her father's legacy, and the ongoing impact thereof. There are associations made with murder, ruination- tied to the hands of those once associated with her own father- and it is done-up in a bow made of it's celebration thereafter. In relishing that dual indulgence.

For Helena, we can then subsume, her indulgence is neither wealth, nor greed, nor power, nor sheer brutality unlike many a Bertinelli before her, but retribution. and she very well knows it.

Just... she is fucking wild to me. She's so fucking intelligent, and self-aware, and analytical, and considerate and it is making me fucking insane.

[zahri-melitor]

The more I read about Duke the more I realise the fandom knows literally nothing about Duke except:

"he's a Robin!" (not really, by any real standards of 'Robin'. He was a leader in We Are Robin, but he's never worked with any Batman under that title)

He's one of Batman's kids! (he was fostered for MAYBE 18 months our time and his parents were also living at the Manor at the same time. He's been with relatives since early 2018: first his cousin Jay and now I believe his mum Elaine since 2022 or so?)

He is a meta with light-based powers (which he does not discover until Dark Nights: Metal and rarely uses on page instead of hitting things with batons)

The other Batkids consider him a sibling! (Uhhh well he has a relationship with Cass, and appeared in several family group scenes while he was fostered, which mostly noted that none of the others knew him as more than 'the new kid'; since he moved out of the Manor he has not done so)

Look, at this point he's an outer Bat family member, on a similar level to Harper Row, Helena Bertinelli, Julia Pennyworth, Luke Fox or maybe at best Stephanie Brown.

Unless you're talking about WFA he's not an inner circle character who is a 'Wayne'.

[docgold13]

Heroes & Villains The DC Animated Universe - Paper Cut-Out Portraits and Profiles

The Huntress

Helena Bertinelli was the daughter of an organized crime overboss named Franco Bertinelli. As a child, she saw her parents murdered by Steven Mandragora, a lieutenant who killed his boss so to take over the Bertinelli empire.  Helena only managed to escape by hiding in a closet; yet she witnessed the whole ordeal and it scarred her for life.  

Sublimating her desire for revenge into crimefighting, Helena went on to become the Huntress.  She trained rigorously and became a world class gymnast and martial artist, capable of disarming and defeating multiple armed opponents.  Her weapons of choice were a self-reloading mini-crossbow and retractable bow-staff.

The Huntress was recruited into the Justice League when the team expanded its roster following the Thanagarian invasion.  Through the League’s resources, Huntress was finally able to track down Steven Mandragora who had recently resurfaced and was turning state’s witness as part of a plea deal.  

With the aid of The Question, The Huntress was able to take Mandragora down.  She had planning on killing him yet ultimately chose not when she saw that Mandragora was with his young son (a child roughly the same age Helena was when she saw her parents murdered).  Although she did not go through with her deadly act, Huntress' recklessness nonetheless resulted in her being expelled from the Justice League.

Undaunted, she continued to fight crime on her own, frequently teaming up with The Question (whom Helena had become romantically involved with).  When The Question was abducted by Project Cadmus, The Huntress alerted Superman and together they broke the Question free from his incarceration.  The Huntress was invited to rejoin the team but declined the offer.   

Some time later, The Huntress investigated strange behaviors on the part of Black Canary.  She discovered that Canary and other female member of the League were being mind controlled and forced to fight in Roulette’s Meta-Brawl.  Huntress and Black Canary worked together to free the others and Roulette’s operation was brought down.  

Actress Amy Acker voiced The Huntress with the headstrong heroine first appearing in the debut episode of the first season of Justice League Unlimited, ‘Initiation.’   

[redhoodscorvid]

"Black sheep" isn't a threat unless it can also happen to you.

And if you say that Helena's role as the black sheep has some clear similarities with contemporary Jason's place in the Family, then I'd agree. But if you say that sounds like contemporary Jason has stolen an intrinsic trait or an esteemed position from Helena, then I'd disagree.

The thing is that the "black sheep" role isn't static in an abusive family. It is possible for people to be locked into the black sheep role for the entirety of their lives. But I'd guess it's even more common for lower ranking family members to rotate in and out of the black sheep role, especially as members enter and exit the Family (births, deaths, adoptions, partnerships and marriages, divorces, escapes). Helena, Stephanie, Jason, and Damian seem to have rotated into that role at various points, to varying extents.

So remember! Next time you complain that Jason and his Batfam stans are greedily hoarding the much-coveted black sheep role—bear in mind that if he leaves the Batriarchy, it could be your favorite character getting grudging, backhanded compliments after pathetically sacrificing their time and well-being for the tepid approval of the rich, white patriarch who magnanimously tolerates their many flaws which will be recited and demonstrated in their every appearance.

[punkeropercyjackson]

Superhero fans for years have been saying that Dick Grayson 'has a thing for redheads' because his two main canon love interests are redhead women and his most popular mlm ship is from one of the worst DC adaptions ever with a guy who also happens to be ginger but Princess Koriand'r is a black woman,Babara Gordon has multiple black adaptions and his other gfs have been Bea Bennett who is black too and Helena Bertinelli specifically when she got rebooted to be black/white mixed and Tim Drake is said to canonically have a type in blondes because he's canon bi now thanks to Bernard Dowd but in his second solo he was dating a black girl named Tam Fox and way back in his first run his first crush Ariana Dzerchenko dyed her hair blonde because she thought that's why he liked Stephanie Brown and Tim straight up made a very strained fake smile while thinking 'I hate it' and the fandom made a whole meme fanart trend of Kon-El Kent being upset and wishing he was blonde so Tim would've chosen him instead since he was previously considered Tim's canon boyfriend by fans.But when black people headcanon Hobie Brown as stritcly black4black or perfers to date black women over anyone else and make jokes about how he'd never date a white person because of how black punkish he is and there's nothing to disprove either since his only love interest is his Prowler variant's Mindy Mcpherson who's a black woman and him and Gwen Stacy were left ambigious in the finale version of Atsv,we're being 'uninclusive' and 'too mean'.Lol.Lmao even.What's y'all's opinion on the Percy Jackson show deciding to let Leah Jeffries keep her natural hair instead of the blonde afro wig they considered which was a good call in a meta sense since book!Annabeth Chase hates being blonde because she wants to be seen as more than her hair color btw

[violent138]

ask game #5 if you could go back and change the outcome of the poll that killed Jason Todd, would you?

Oooh went for the tough one immediately. See this one is weird, because Jason's always been the Robin That Died and Returned to me (spoiled for me early, and I watched the Under the Red Hood animated film when I was still very little). I also think that really intriguing consequences and darkness arose from his death and subsequent return (depressing as it is that such a cute little guy got voted out). I'd be lying if he wasn't an easy character to use, along with Helena Bertinelli, for some complex storylines and ethical quandries. As well as just explorations of guilt, regret, losses of innocence (all around), and some really wicked meta analyses of what it means that the audience wanted that.

Eerie and Roman-like as it is that his death was voted for, I think I'd leave the outcome of the poll as is.

Thanks for the ask!