#helena bertinelli meta

[soleminisanction]

Once again got a bee in my bonnet to spend a night doing obscure fandom research to make a point, so. For all those people who keep making the annoying, "Tim keeps '''stealing'' other peoples' names" comments -- have a table.

EDIT: Updated version with some mistakes corrected.

Everyone with a check mark has used that codename at some point in DC's 80+ year continuity -- Elseworlds and alternate dimensions/timelines count, adaptations (movies, video games, cartoons, etc.) don't unless they've got comic book tie-ins, and neither do in-universe dream sequences/illusions/fantasies/other narrative elements that are objectively "not real" within the boundaries of the fiction.

A purple marker indicates an element that only applies in Elseworlds or alternate timelines. Yellow is for the originator of the legacy title. Star symbol is for borderline cases/extenuating circumstances/it's open to interpretation (with some further elaboration below).

The "other" column is just there to account for people who've held lesser or non-legacy titles, like Renegade, Wingman, Arkham Knight, Drake, Redbird, Talon, Deadman, Black Bat, Orphan and Catwoman.

Point being: the people who have actually gone through the most legacy titles in this family are Dick, Babs and Jason, tied with 5 each (again, not counting "other;" if we counted those separately Dick would've had by far the most). Tim is tied with Steph AND Helena Wayne, so unless you're whining about them "stealing other peoples' names" you're just wrong, and they're all only one higher than Damian, Carrie and Bruce.

This is a legacy family that passes their codenames up and down the inheritance line. It's what they do. It's not a legitimate criticism to level at one character and not the others. Please get over it.

---

Further elaboration on some of the lesser known/niche cases:

- Bruce uses the Robin ID in Superman & Batman: Generations, as well as the pre-Crisis Detective Comics #226 story.

- In the second half of Thrillkiller ‘62, Babs cuts her hair and dons the Robin costume worn by her deceased partner Dick to get revenge on his killer; however the only name ever used for her in the series is Batgirl

- Cassandra was a member of the Robins orphan gang from Dark Knights of Steel.

- Duke was a member of the We Are Robins gang, as well as the aforementioned DKS orphan gang, and has appeared as Robin in a couple of Elseworlds, including I believe a White Knight spin-off.

- Cass was Batwoman in one of the versions of the Titans Tomorrow, as was Bette Kane, depending on changes to the timeline.

- Babs is Batwoman in the Batman ‘66 comics and in the 1980 story “The Secret Origin of Bruce (Superman) Wayne”

- Earth-3 Steph is Batwoman in Young Justice 2019.

- Helena Wayne is Batwoman in the possible future story Last Rites

- Tim is a member of the Batgirls vigilante/little league baseball team in the DC Bombshells universe, as is Cullen Row. Some call them the “Batboys” instead. I call those people cowards.

- Helena Bertinelli wore the costume that would later become Cass’s signature Batgirl look during No Man’s Land. However, she was more often referred to as “The Bat” and her Batgirl status is up to individual interpretation.

- Dick didn’t originate the Nightwing name, it started with Clark in the Silver Age.

- Steph has never been Nightwing. The panel where she appears in the costume is a Black Mercy illusion that happens only in her own mind. It’s a dream sequence.

- Barbara was Nightwing in the Smallville Season 11 comics.

- Terry was briefly Nightwing in volume 4 of Batman Beyond.

- Damian briefly became Nightwing after accidentally killing Dick in the Injustice series.

- Dick is Oracle in the “Eight Wonders of the World�� version of Earth 2 (aka the Black Superman dimension)

[necrotic-nephilim]

@sasheneskywalker i love when you enable me to ramble about things because oh my god do i have thoughts.

so recently, i made a post discussing the phenomena of DC x DP and DC x MLB crossovers and why they exist and part of that post was discussing how largely speaking, at least half, if not more of the Batfamily fandom doesn't read the comics. if they interact with canon DC material, it's adaptations that are their own sequestered universes and oftentimes not remotely comic accurate or seeking to be. the most obvious example is the Young Justice cartoon. i'm adding a cut to this post because it just got so long i'm so sorry.

a lot of times, when people are discussing the "why" of this oversaturation of fanon-only fandom, they blame Wayne Family Adventures. and i think, to a point, i agree WFA is responsible for a boom in this fandom. but as someone who's been in the fandom long before we had WFA, to me it's the other way around. WFA was DC's way of meeting the demand for this easy-to-get-into, easy-to-consume content about the Batfamily that predicates itself on the comics just enough to be vaguely the same characters, but has a more sitcom, slice-of-life sort of vibe so DC could profit off of this section of the fanbase that otherwise wasn't consuming its primary material. and well, it's definitely worked. not only that, but i have a weird theory that the decline in the MCU also led to the rise in the Batfamily fandom. when you consider the fan content that made the MCU popular within fandom, it's that 2012 "they all live in Avengers Tower and Thor is eating poptarts and Clint is in the vents and there are movie nights every Friday" sort of vibe. those were the fics that were a hallmark of the fandom. and as the MCU has strayed from well... quality content in general, but specifically well-thought-out crossover content where characters can have their own arcs but also exist in a wider story where they clearly care about each other, that fandom was sort of homeless. so where do you go, if you like a superhero found family where you can have villains for angst but also stick them all in one big family-like home for silly crack and have a plethora of options for gay ships? well. you go to the Batfamily. if you write a crack/fluff Batfamily genfic with silly vibes and low stakes instead of say, a fic about a very specific comic issue even if it's a popular comic, you're *going* to get more traction for the former. because the fanbase largely just isn't reading the comics.

and i feel... complicated about this. because on one hand, Don't Like Don't Read has been a tenet of my fandom experience. i'm very pro-fandom and that includes fandom content i don't like. and to an extent, i do think this sort of should apply to Batfamily fanon. i enjoy having my moments with other comic purists, giggling over exceptionally painful OOC headcanons or even facepalming in pain over some content but it is on me to not interact with that content. you don't make fandom a better place by being hostile to fans who engage with canon in ways you don't approve of. and frankly? we as comic readers are not going to get non-comic fans to read the comics by being asshats to them. no one is going to want to pick up any comic if we get a superiority complex about it. and also, i feel like we're all lying to ourselves a little bit insisting comics are so, so easy to get into. they're not. we can just all agree, they're really not. i've been single-handedly helping my sister get into comics, specifically Wonder Woman and no matter how simple i make it, i watch her get frustrated trying to understand what pre-Crisis and post-Crisis and New-52 and Flashpoint and all these things mean and what a retcon vs a reboot is and what a Crisis Event is and what the hell Diana's current backstory even *is*. sure, you can give someone a beginner list of comics to start with and slowly dip their toes in the water but sooner or later, *something* is going to confuse them. comics as a medium straight up aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea. and if someone *just* wants to read silly fluffy fanfiction about the Batfamily, i can't entirely begrudge them for not wanting to take the hours and hours out of their day to understand this medium. it's not an accessible medium to get into. "read this and this, but this run is out of print and this run wasn't collected in trades at all but also make sure you read that event in order and this is a good comic but the backstory in it is retconned and you *have* to read this it's so important but it's also really bad because the author kind of sucks" sounds. ridiculous for someone who like. just wants to read some stuff about Nightwing. sometimes, we all make reading comics sort of sound like a chore, not a hobby.

so my point is, i do extend some grace to Batfamily fanon for existing. i think my biggest gripe is, as i said in my other post, misuse of tags (if you're not creating content about comics, maybe you don't need the comics fandom tag on Ao3, just the all media types umbrella tag) and my far bigger gripe: when panels are taken out of context to support fanon only headcanons. if i could impart *anything* onto the Batfamily fandom as a comic fan it'd be this: if you haven't *read* the comic, don't spread the panel. if you don't even know what comic it's *from*, don't spread the panel. it's fine to use comic panels to discuss your headcanons, but so often i see someone spreading a comic panel from a comic they haven't read, and when asked where it's from, they can't source it. a silly example that comes to mind is a post going around, taking a panel where Dick, in his internal monologue goes "here comes the sun. do do do do." and the post is claiming it's from him getting buried alive. when that panel comes from Nightwing (1996) #140, and he gets buried alive in Nightwing (1996) #127, two completely different moments frankensteined together. if you're going to not read the comics, that's completely fine, but unless you're sure of the source and the context, panels shouldn't be spread around. i'm sick of this specifically happening to Red Robin (2009), with ppl claiming Tim has totally killed people because he blew up some of Ra's' bases, when those panels within context, make it clear he gave everyone time to escape. and in a later arc in that very comic, Tim grapples with the idea of murdering Captain Boomerang, and *specifically chooses not to*, because he doesn't agree with murder, even against the person who has hurt him the most. if you'd like to write fanfiction where Tim is pro-murder and has done some sketch things, i'm totally on board and would probably like to read it. but there's no need to pretend it's canon from a few panels you saw out of context.

beyond that, i think it's not *entirely* correct to say that fanon is harmless. whenever i see very WFA-positive posts, they often default to the argument that WFA is fun and silly, and comic fans are killjoys for not liking it. which. i think is complicated because the issue is, WFA and fanon don't exist in a vacuum. if you like WFA power to you, i don't think it's the worst thing ever, but i do think it's degrading to these characters because honestly? they feel incompetent in the webtoon. it's one thing if WFA was solely a slice-of-life sort of deal, just having silly episodes where Bruce is taking on a PTA mom or they're all fighting for the last cookie. but when WFA attempts to take on more serious plots with these characters, it *fundamentally* falls flat in understanding them. i get it, Bruce comforting Jason having a panic attack because a noise reminded him of the crowbar felt cute in a microcosm, but i'm so serious when i say that storyline destroyed how like. half of this fandom understands Jason Todd's relationship to his trauma. it doesn't understand how he reacts when he's triggered, what coping mechanisms he seeks out, and how he would handle Bruce comforting him. even if i can believe for a brief moment Jason *would* be triggered by something like that, him running and trying to hide and then getting a hug from Bruce to make it okay is just. painful. WFA needs everything to be wrapped up in a nice, neat little bow. so even when it starts to tackle interesting concepts, it makes them fall flat with its need to be soft, low stakes, hurt/comfort. there was a two-parter episode that dealt with the complicated mutual hatred/jealousy between Tim and Damian that *almost* really interested me because for once, it felt like the webtoon wanted to explore canon messy dynamics. but of course, it had to be fixed with one conversation and a hug. you don't mend the *years* of issues these characters have like that. WFA isn't in character because these characters are hyperbole cartoonified versions of themselves to fit within the medium and be a cute happy family.

because that right there, is the crux of it. the Batfamily fanon seeks to simplify the Batfamily and force them into a nuclear family. there are so many fantastic posts on here discussing how the nuclear family-ification of the Batfam is eroding decades worth of complex histories so i won't go too far into that. but what i will say is that there's this need, in the Batfamily fandom, for the Batfamily to exist as a unit. they are a *family*. (honestly i think calling it the Batfamily is a misnomer and has been for years but we're in too deep now.) they exist to each other first, and any teams or friends they have come secondary to this family unit. you can *specifically* see this demonstrated in what headcanons are becoming popular these days. i have an entire lengthy meta in my drafts about how i *loathe* the "the Batfamily meets the Justice League" genre of fanfic because it makes no *sense*. in order to have this genre of fic exist, you must operate under the assumption that no one in the League, or adjacent to the League, knows the Batfamily exists and are thus utterly shocked to discover Batman has kids. and to make *that* work, you have to strip *every single Batfamily member* of such important dynamics and friendships so you can lock them all in Gotham for their whole lives. Dick can't have the Titans, Tim can't have Young Justice, Duke & Cass can't have the Outsiders, Jason can't have the Outlaws, Damian can't have the Supersons, Babs can't have the Birds of Prey, and so on. because if they had these relationships, they would be known to the League. the Batfamily fandom doesn't care about this, it's just "silly fanfiction", it's not trying to be serious. but how can you say you like Dick Grayson as a character if you don't understand the Titans *are* his family? at some points of his life, moreso than the Batfamily even is. it is constantly repeated to us in most comics with Dick how much the Titans mean to him. he *needs* them to be who he is. the same extends to every other Batfamily member, most of which have been full League members at this point. but in fanon, that doesn't matter. the Batfamily are a sequestered unit first, and all of those side relationships are secondary and easy to toss away, if it makes your fanfic work better.

and because they have to be a unit first, you have these forced relationships that dump years of actual canon material for the sake of making them get along. the Batfamily fandom has its favorites and well. it's no secret it's usually the boys. Jason and Tim by *far* stand out as fandom faves so, their dynamic is a heavily explored one. it does matter that in canon they don't tend to get along and especially don't see each other as family. what matters is that you can push dynamics onto them. and so fanon gets all twisted up about which Robin Tim actually idolized as a kid (Dick) and what member of the Batfamily is pro-murder but still an older sibling figure to him and looks out for him (Helena, or if you want the dynamic of once tried to harm Tim but they've reconciled, Jean-Paul) in favor of who's the most popular. Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian are always going to be the standouts for popularity, but it's specifically Jason and Tim who are getting fanonized the most. and that's because really, we don't have much canon content of Tim that *isn't* the comics. for Dick you've got Young Justice (tv), for Damian you've got the DCAMU, for Jason you've sort of got the Under The Red Hood movie, but Tim sort of lingers in this limbo. (yes, he's in Young Justce (tv) and Titans (live action) but in neither is he the main character nor given much depth) so, he gets a *lot* projected onto him and has become fanonized. and even with Jason's animated movies, you don't see him interact with Tim, so people build it from the ground up how they want to see it, disregarding of canon comics. i think it's what makes him so popular in the first place- he's malleable into whatever you want or need him to be.

and of course, the fanon ignores other characters in the Batfamily it doesn't know about. i feel like you could create a tier list of Batfamily characters by their popularity, going from the fandom main characters: Tim, Jason, Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Damian. to the underrated: Steph, Duke, Babs, Cass. to the forgotten about unless they're convenient for a story: Kate, the Foxes, Helena Wayne, Carrie, Selina, Harper Row, Maps, Minhkhoa Khan. to the absolutely unknown: Helena Bertinelli, Jean-Paul Valley, Onyx Adams, the Clovers, Julia Pennyworth. it's not lost on me that the ignored characters tend to be women and people of color. which is both a canon and fanon problem, DC will continue adding interesting characters to the Batfamily, play with them for a few years, then drop them to default to the "Batboys" again. and it's a vicious cycle of the fandom only caring about the "Batboys", and thus people entering the fandom via fanon osmosis won't have content about the other characters, therefore, they won't be interested in those characters enough to create it, and it's just this ouroboros consuming itself, no matter how much canon content we have of these other characters. and it's ridiculous just how large the Batfamily is becoming because of this, which is why i'm a pre-Flashpoint fan, because then the Batfamily was contained enough to actually feel like a family with every character having nuances relationships with each other, but i digress because those thoughts could be their own post.

and the thing about fanon is it doesn't exist in a vacuum. DC has started turning the comics to accommodate for what fans are asking for, because fans will beg and beg for content they're not going to consume. Tim Drake: Robin had Tim as a coffee drinker because that's the fanon accepted headcanon. and the resolution of the recent Gotham War arc was for Bruce to buy this new manor for everyone to move in and call him. nevermind that most of these characters have their own homes and have zero reason to be moving in with Bruce. Tim had his marina in Tim Drake: Robin, Dick has Bludhaven, Cass and Steph have their little side of town in Batgirls (2022), and so on. these characters are being forced together as a unit, as one big happy family living together, to appease what non-comic fans want and it's damaging comic relationships. Robin: Knight Terrors saw Jason and Tim team up and working together, which i've seen varying opinions on but i personally despised. their interactions made zero sense for any of their canon history, but it appeases them being this close sibling relationship that fanon acts like they are. also the fears they faced in their respective knight terrors didn't make sense for either character and *only* worked as a moment of bringing them together so they could reassure each other and have this weird dreamscape bonding moment. the canon is bending itself to the will of fanon rather than building on the pre-existing complex relationships. Tim barely even gets along with his most important team in Dark Crisis: Young Justice because it seems the only important relationships the Batfamily can have is with each other. and when we do see them outside of the Batfamily, it only seems to be to relive the glory days like with World's Finest: Teen Titans, instead of developing them as they currently exist. this isn't recent in the comics, it feels like you can trace it back to the New-52, but it does feel a *lot* worse over the recent years. WFA is fine when it exists in its own bubble, but the simple truth is, DC content never exists on its own. the adaptations will reflect back onto the comics. (the damage the Young Justice cartoon has done to some characters should honestly be studied) and so it does frustrate me a bit when fanon-only or adaptation-only fans act like we're being nothing but killjoys for being frustrated with this. since they don't read the comics, they don't see how the comics are suffering as a result of this.

people argue about what's out of character for the comics they don't even read. i'm sorry, but "bad dad Bruce" is consistently canon. that man is just kind of shitty. when you take someone who has the drive he has, who has this need for the Mission first, who needs a teenager in spandex next to him to keep him off the ledge, that guy is sort of going to be a shitty father figure. he just is. not on purpose or with malice, but when you compare him to any other dad in a big DC family, he sure takes the cake. it's why characters like Oliver Queen tend to *really* fucking hate Bruce for how he treats his kids. Bruce loves fiercely, but he doesn't do well with putting that love first. and his love is a controlling one, he is very particular about controlling how others in the Batfamily are "allowed" to operate. it's what drives the wedge between him and Dick, it's why Steph is never a true daughter to him. (besides the reason of her needing to be a love interest to Tim first, anyway-) i've never understood the massive outcry of people reacting to Bruce kinda being shitty in comics they're not reading. there are some moments that get ridiculously OOC with how cartoonishly evil he is (the whole Gotham War arc and that... complicated mess with Jason) but largely if you want sitcom loving nuclear father Bruce, you have to accept that is a fanon thing, not a canon one. the Batfamily being a nuclear family in *general* is fanon. most of the "Batkids" don't actually see Bruce in a particularly fatherly light and begging for moments where he calls them his kids or they call him dad outside of incredibly specific circumstances is just OOC.

it's getting harder and harder to exist peacefully in this fandom it feels like, if you don't comply to the standard fanon has set. i'm happy people are having fun with their blorbos, even if in ways i dislike, but that "harmless fandom fun" does ripple it's way back to canon, eventually. so i end up pretty tangled with my feelings because are fans at fault for DC making these poor decisions? probably not, but it certainly feels like an unfortunate cause-and-effect situation whether at the end of the day, nobody is happy. and of course, i know some fanon-only fans are striving to be more canon accurate and care about canon dynamics more than others, but for them it's always going to be an uphill battle with the above-mentioned out-of-context panels thrown around and ever-pervasive fanon overtaking anything that's truly seeking to be canon compliant. so really, it sometimes feels like we're all losing.

[crim-bat]

Well I regret sending that anon now because I inspired a rude person to send one as well, sorry. I still disagree with the framing. The body of your post is dissonant with that “I’m a long time fan of Jason” intro. I see people saying damian shouldn’t exist because he and Tim are hitting elbows both being robin and Tim existed first, and the only rebuttal needed is “I think Damian is an interesting character and I like reading about him” and I say that because like him. (And that very wrong damian criticism is pushback against people saying Tim shouldn’t exist because he doesn’t have a place to be right now.) You not having a similar feeling about Jason just… seems like you don’t like him? Calling it cannibalism instead of just the characters being around for decades and the same ground being trodden, when there are other characters that do this as well, notably even ones you bring up as counterexamples. I’m not going to say anything else because I think I laid it all on your doorstep already, sorry again and have a good night

Hold up a moment. You dont get to call me rude after firing off first and walk away. Many people do think Tim shouldn't be robin anymore and actively complain that he's still not moving from a junior role to a graduated title. Red robin wasn't perfect but it certainly wasn't worse than him going back to robin.

I'd challenge you, dear anon, to ask yourself a question.

1. Has Jason ever had a good all caste story?

2. Has he ever had an actually good story when he went postal as an anti hero? Under the hood doesn't count as he was purely the antagonist then.

3. How about a good story where he worked with his brothers and him constantly having a chip on his shoulder was endearing like Damian?

4. How about a run where he was batman for a bit and then the real deal showed up to beat the snot out of him?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be any bleed into what other characters do but there's nothing creative with what they've done with Jason because it all relies on him fundamentally never having a defined niche, outside of crime boss, to call his own.

And because Jason is placed where other characters that are more established and would otherwise be a better match for a story and because Jason has fundamentally nothing going on that wasn't cribbed from someone else, including the first iteration of the outlaws which was just a worse version of the outsiders which were also dicks friends (that's a 5th and 6th thing he took from another character, dear anon), he lacks the foundation to tell his own stories properly.

Dear anon, Jason, as he is treated right now, is a middle child copy cat who deserves better than both the writers who created that situation and the fans who enable it. Including you, dear anon

[zahri-melitor]

Was just reading some fic and realised with a start that I hadn’t consciously noticed how divergent the “I’ve just heard about this moment” version of Dick beating up Joker in the Last Laugh is to the comics.

I mean, I knew that the “Croc tries to drown Tim, Joker is blamed for killing Tim due to arranging the situation at Arkham” bit doesn’t get communicated properly and gets boiled down to “Dick thought Joker killed Tim”. But HOW and WHY Dick stops is also missed. 

Fandom telephone says “Bruce revived Joker” and I really don’t think it was anywhere near that simple (and also the simple version is more likely “Tim revived Joker”).

Like, we don’t GET details of the resuscitation, but there were five heroes present. Bruce, Helena and Steph arrived together. You’ve got Dick having a guilt breakdown and Tim who had to HANG OFF DICK’S ARM to get him to stop.

Panel staging suggests that the most likely situation was that it was Tim and Bruce who revived Joker (and probably Tim initially), but the idea that Helena and Dick were also taking turns is so goddamn tasty.

Because Helena, who was thinking she’d seen the remains of Tim being EATEN BY KILLER CROC, walking in to see Tim desperately trying to revive the Joker? That Helena, seeing the hero she considers a little brother, performing CPR? Helena, who’s standing closer to Joker than any of the others when he wakes up? Who says “we should have let him die”? She 100% could have felt that it was a wasted effort and still stepped up to help her little brother Tim, because he’s just a teen like the students she misses. She could have helped while still disagreeing with the outcome. She’s played by the rules while disagreeing with them plenty of times.

And did Dick? Does he just have his breakdown while Tim’s trying to revive the Joker, or does he step in to help out of guilt and because a team effort is more effective? Does Bruce order him to help as a way to try and get Dick out of his head? How does it feel to have the hands that punched Joker in the chest to the point that his heart stopped be the same hands that performed compressions to try and restart it?

(I largely suspect Steph did NOT participate and may have been sent to scout the rest of the Cathedral, due to her mask being in place, probably being the least CPR-qualified of the group AND she hadn’t had a chance to go “Tim you’re alive!” yet. Helena would have current first aid via teaching, and Bruce would be religious about it for himself, Tim and Dick. And Bruce IS training Steph at this exact point in canon, so would be across what he’s taught her and what he hasn’t)

Anyway, I’m having a lot of feels about Joker: Last Laugh today, because the character dynamics are so tasty. 

[armed-with-a-waffle-iron]

Bat Family Ages (with Sources & Panels)

Notes: I'm NOT using a "year zero"; the calendar year before "Batman: Year One" is "1 Year Before Batman".

TLDR

Ages at the end of Preboot (Batman: Year Twenty)- Bruce (45), Renee (37-38), Kate (33), Babs (27-28), Helena (26-27), Dick (26), Cass (21), Jason (20-21), Steph (19), Tim (17 18), Damian (10-11).

D.O.B.-

Bruce Wayne- 26 Years Before Batman

Renee Montoya- 7th September, 19 Years Before Batman

Kate Kane- 14 Years Before Batman

Barbara Gordon- 8-9 Years Before Batman

Helena Bertinelli- 8 Years Before Batman

Dick Grayson- 1st Day of Spring™, 7 Years Before Batman

Cassandra Cain-Wayne- 26th January, 2 Years Before Batman

Jason Todd- 16th August, 2 Years Before Batman

Stephanie Brown- 1 Year Before Batman

Tim Drake-Wayne- Batman: Year One

Damian Wayne- Batman: Year Nine

Long Version

Bruce Wayne- 26 Years Before Batman

On the 4th of January, Year One, a 25 year-old Bruce Wayne returns to Gotham after 12 years abroad on 4th January, months before his first outing as Batman (Batman: Year One #1). Unless his birthday is between Jan 1-4, Bruce turns 26 the year Batman is born.

Dick Grayson- 1st Day of Spring, 7 Years Before Batman

Dick Grayson's origin story is appears in the tail end of Batman: Dark Victory, which takes place in the 4th and 5th years of Batman's career.

In its sequel, Robin: Year One, Dick begins attending Bristol Middle School. And in Batman & Robin (2009) #13, Dick, as Batman, tells the Joker he had already figured him out at 12 but The Joker doesn't appear in Robin: Year One. So, Dick is probably 11 when he becomes Robin, in Year Five (Dark Victory). Dick is 19 years younger than Bruce.

Important for later, Dick becomes Nightwing, aged 19 (Nightwing: Year One and Batman #116) in Year Thirteen.

Jason Todd- August 16th, 2 Years Before Batman

According to his death certificate, Jason Todd was 15 years and 8 months old when he died on the 27th of April (Batman Files). His birthday is August 16th (Detective Comics #790). At this time, Dick Grayson was 21, having left the Robin mantle 2 years earlier; at 19 (Batman #436). Jason is around 5 years younger than Dick. He was hence Robin for less than 2 years, from when he was 13 going on 14 in Year Thirteen up to 27th April, Year Fifteen.

Stephanie Brown- 2 Years Before Batman

Steph is 15 when she debuts as Spoiler (Secret Origin 80-Page Giant). At the same time as her debut comic, Deathstroke (1991) Annual 1 has Dick saying he, one of the oldest Titans, is no older than 21 (the age he was when Jason died). Dick is 6 years older than Steph. So Steph debuts in Year Fifteen; the same year Jason dies and Tim becomes Robin.

Steph becomes Batgirl right before her freshman year of university, aged 18, going on 19 (Batgirl 2009 #1). This is in Year Nineteen. Which means that Preboot ends in Batman: Year Twenty as Steph has not yet entered sophomore year. Convergence takes place after of course.

Barbara Gordon- 8-9 Years Before Batman

Batgirl (2000) #45 shows that Babs was already Batgirl at 18. As an adult, Babs is 5'11" and yet she did not meet the minimum height requirements for the GCPD or FBI during Batgirl: Year One. She must have become Batgirl before she stopped growing, and so was at most 16 during Batgirl: Year One. She also says that she is older than Dick in Batgirl: Year One but they must be close enough in age for them to go to prom together (Detective Comics #871). My theory is that Babs didn't go to her own prom because she skipped grades and was or felt too young so her high school prom was actually when she went with Dick to his. Babs is somewhere between 1-2 years older than Dick.

There's more evidence for this. Dick is already a Teen Titan during Batgirl: Year One and in New Titans #89 said that he knew Donna Troy since they were both 13. So Babs likely became Batgirl between Year Seven and Year Eight, when she was 15-16 and Dick was 13-14. Also, Dick and Babs have a picnic as friends 12 years before The Black Mirror, in Year Twenty, so these ages are pretty perfect.

Important for later, Babs is shot by the Joker just before Jason is killed and becomes Oracle before Tim becomes Robin. This is in Year Fifteen; she is roughly 22 here given that Dick is 20-21 at the time. No panels just math :P

Cassandra Cain-Wayne- January 26th, 2 Years Before Batman

Cassandra Cain debuts in No Man's Land aged 17 (Batgirl 2000 #1) and turns 18 on the 26th of January the following year, though she only learns this after it has passed (Batgirl 2000 #33). Later that year, Bruce brings her to Jason's grave on the 16th of August, the day he would have turned 18 (Detective Comics #790). She is 7 months older than Jason.

Helena Bertinelli- 8 Years Before Batman

Helena Bertinelli was 8 when her family was murdered and the events of Huntress: Cry for Blood takes place 15 years after, following directly after No-Man's Land. Huntress is hence 23 following No-Man's Land. Cass turns 18 soon after No-Man's land, so Helena is around 5 years older than Cass.

But, Cass is born in January and Helena could be born later in the year. Helena Bertinelli is 21 years-old during Huntress: Year One; when she becomes the Huntress. She soon moves back to Gotham after Carvinal in Venice (late Jan-early Feb), and encounters Barbara Gordon as Batgirl. Babs is at most 22 here so Babs is close to 1 year older than Helena and Helena is slightly older than Dick. Huntress debuts at the tail end of Year Fourteen.

Damian Wayne- Batman: Year Nine

Dick and Stephanie call Damian a 10 year old in Batman and Robin #2 and Batgirl #17. One takes place before Steph starts uni (since Damian appears in Batgirl 2009 #1) and the other takes place during Steph's second semester of freshman year (Batgirl #13). So Damian is 9 years younger than Stephanie. He first appears aged 9 at the start of Year Nineteen and becomes Robin later that year, aged 10.

Renee Montoya- 7th September, 19 Years Before Batman

In 52 #14, published in 2006, we see Renee's passport and date of birth: 9/7/1970. It is the 14th week of the year so she would be 35 going on 36. 52 takes place in Year Eighteen, the calendar year Damian turns 9, so Renee is 27 years older than Damian.

She debuts as the second Question in 52 #48 the same year, aged 36.

Kate Kane- 14 Years Before Batman

Kate Kane is 32 at the time of Batwoman: Elegy, in Year Nineteen, since she was in the same class at West Point as the real-life activist Dan Choi, which means that she was part of the US Military Academy Class of 2003. Damian is 10 at the time so Kate is 22 years older than Damian.

Tim Drake-Wayne- Batman: Year One

Tim's age is THE weird one because DC are hellbent on keeping him at 17. It's too much for my brain, like how is he still 17 in Red Robin?? Let's say he seems to be only a year younger than Stephanie Brown a la Secret Origins 80-Page Giant or that he was bitten by a strange vampire bat during the One Year Later time skip. Your pick.

Fun fact: Dick permanently becomes Batman at 25 (in Year Nineteen), which is possibly the same age Bruce was when he became Batman.

[trackingthehuntress]

I don’t think I could ever really pick a favorite thing about Helena, but something I think I’ve loved since the beginning of my love for her, - starting with cry for blood and going on to reading her other stuff - something I love is that she’s not really ever a character who gets fixed. Basically all of her connections in the heroism community (except for like. Dinah and Renee) have at one point or another viewed her as a problem, as someone who needs their solution, as someone who needs to be managed or manipulated. So many other characters look at her and see something that needs to be controlled, and at times the individual comics’ narratives agree with this and uphold it. But when you look at the whole of her character history, you see someone who never has the exact answer, who is never sure if she is actually a hero or still that scared little girl whose family was murdered. She’s always throwing away her costume only to pick it up again a few days later. She isn’t static, but her problems run deeper than ones that can be given a simple fix.

where was I? Oh right - she’s not a character who gets fixed. Because every person who thinks they can fix her, or control her, or agrees with people who try, or anything like that? It fails, in any way that matters. Think about max lord, think about batman, think about nightwing, think about oracle. Even if their plans succeeded in the short term, did they have any lasting effect on her or who she is? No - they all ended badly for someone, and only someone who recognized the harm of treating someone like this and apologized was able to get anywhere close to a healthy, meaningful relationship with Helena (that would be Barbara, by the way). So the thing that i love is that even when the people around her are all trying to shove her into a box and then fix the person they’ve imagined her to be, she is allowed to exist as this multifaceted person who has failures and flaws and struggles yes, but ones outside of the two dimensional person the people around her see her as.

[sassylittlecanary]

How the Arrowverse Failed Helena Bertinelli

Generally I’m a big fan of the Arrowverse, but I wouldn’t be the first to point out Arrow’s bad track record when it comes to adapting female comic characters.

Huntress was a perfect character to feature on Arrow — an edgy hero with a penchant for violence and vengeance, much like Oliver himself.

The issue is that Arrow decided to turn Helena into a villain who takes innocent people as hostages and kills relentlessly. Her motivation is that her father killed her fiancé, and for that, she single-mindedly hunts him down in every episode she appears in. When someone else kills him, she’s devastated because she wanted to be the one to do it. Moreover, she’s mentored and trained by Oliver, who views himself as responsible for “failing” Helena because he couldn’t get her to stop killing. (He even came up with the idea for her to use a crossbow!) Essentially, her entire identity and origin story revolve around men — her father, her dead fiancé, and Oliver. (Also — she slept with Oliver. As in, the lover/fiancé/husband of one of her best friends in the comics. I literally said “ewww” when they kissed. Show Dinah and Helena some respect, I am begging you.)

This is a huge disservice to such a wonderful character. In contrast, comics!Helena was trained by the mafia, and she fights them not because they killed her lover, but because she takes it on as a personal crusade to prevent them from hurting more people. She fights human trafficking and protects children. She does kill, and this sometimes puts her in a complicated relationship with other heroes like Batman and Oracle. Yet at many points, she actively chooses not to kill, not to become the darkest version of herself. Vengeance is important to her, but compassion and justice are also core parts of her character. She’s witty, she’s intelligent, she’s kind. She’s a well-rounded character who’s so much more than just a vigilante with a crossbow. Additionally, she’s most associated with the Birds of Prey, which provides an ideal setting to show her humanity and the evolution of her own heroism. Her close relationships with other women, Barbara Gordon and Dinah Lance specifically, make it even more striking that Arrow defines her based on her relationships to men. (Also, they position Huntress and Black Canary as enemies, which hammers another nail in the coffin of the representation of close female friendships.)

Considering how important female representation in sci-fi is, it’s frustrating to see a character who’s long been fleshed out in her friendships with other women turned into a bitter femme fatale whose actions have all been spurred by her relationships with men.

The Arrowverse has done a seriously good job with a lot of DC characters. Sadly, Helena isn’t one of them.

Also, she has one of the coolest costumes in DC Comics, and Arrow characteristically turns it into just another dark leather outfit with a domino mask. Boo.

[somewherefornow]

HUNTRESS: YEAR ONE (2008)

[angstandhappiness]

True

so many issues wrt the idea of responsibility and such in batfandom would be fixed if people remembered that leslie thompkins and selina kyle exist. like those scenarios people keep making up about protecting gotham’s infrastructure happen in the comics but because women are involved no one seems to give a shit. “why isn’t anyone offering support in the alley??” leslie is. “why isn’t anyone protecting the women and children of gotham??” selina is. “why isn’t anyone more involved with stopping the mob in gotham??” helena is. “why isn’t bruce more proactive in fixing gotham outside of batman??” who do u think funds leslie’s clinic.

[graysoncritic]

He Walks: Dick Grayson, the Survivor

This is a meta written for the ten year celebration of Grayson. For @grayson10yearslater.

From it’s prologue in Nightwing #30, Grayson by Tom King and Tim Seeley, boldly poses its readers with the question of how to describe one of DC’s oldest and most iconic characters when he is stripped of his familiar superhero identities. Who is Dick Grayson when he can’t hide behind Robin? Nightwing? Batman?

[King, Tom; Seeley, Tim; Tynion IV, James, writers. Janin, Mikel; Hetrick, Meghan; Garron, Javier; Lucas Jorge, illustrators. Setting Son. Nightwing. 30, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014. Page 30]

Divided into twenty issues and three annuals, the story explores the theme of identity from all angles, pushing Dick away from his comforts to dissect the different layers of his character. A hero, the end of the last issue seems to say, is the true answer to this difficult question.

[King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Antonio, Roge, illustrator. Spiral’s End. Grayson. 20, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2016. Page 23]

And while that is undoubtedly true, each of the preceding nineteen issues elaborate on what traits can folded into a hero.

Dick is a storytelling, the first annual says;

[King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Mooney, Stephen, illustrator. A Story of Giants Big and Small. Grayson. Annual 01, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014. Page 11]

Dick is compassionate, the finale of Act I with the Paragon Brain proves;

[King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Mooney, Stephen, illustrator. Sin by Silence. Grayson. 07, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014. Page 19]

Dick is a partner.

[King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Janin, Mikel, illustrator. Nemesis Part Two. Grayson. 10, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014. Pages 23 to 24]

I want to focus a little bit on that last one. Dick, after all, was created to be the perfect partner. In 1940, he was the sensational character find that became Batman’s other half, the missing element to his mythos. Move further along his history, and a diverse number of writers were compelled to team Dick with other characters — he’s the Titans’ leader, the missing third piece of the World’s Finest, Batgirl’s love interest.

Grayson, too, is interested in exploring this aspect of Dick Grayson. In its first act, it pairs him up with Helena Bertinelli, whose more experience, tragic background, and darker personality is meant to mirror Batman.

Tom King: For me, it seems to make so much sense because basically she almost has that Batman female origin. She shares that origin that Batman and Dick have of having gone through this violent period when she was young and coming out of that a hero. We wanted to play with that. We wanted to play with the dichotomy of what Barbara is in Dick's life versus what Helena is in Dick's life. Helena's much closer to what Batman is and much closer to the father figure Dick was related to, so I think that creates immediate tension and fun stuff we can play with.

[Katzman, Gregg. "Interview: Tom King & Tim Seeley Talk GRAYSON." Yahoo! News, 4 Jan. 2015. Accessed 8 Dec. 2024.]

In act two, he is paired up with Tiger King of Kandahar. In fact, there is a theme of duality and partnerships throughout Grayson, showing that this is a critical aspect of who is Dick Grayson.

The exception to this is Grayson #05.

A self-contained story, Grayson #05 isolates Dick to get to the core of who he is. By contrasting Dick with Helena and Midnighter, placing him in the unforgiving vastness of an infernal desert, and calling forth the tale of Robin Dies at Dawn, Grayson #05 presents us with a man who does not give up and does not give in. Dick walks, even if he must walk, at times, alone. When laid bare, without the trappings of a superhero identity or of a partner, Dick Grayson, Grayson #05 says, is, at the core of his being, a survivor.

In this meta, I want to see just exactly how Grayson #05 does that through a close reading of the issue.

Now, without any further delay, let’s get started.

Let’s start with the cover.

[King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Janin, Mikel, illustrator. We All Die at Dawn. Grayson. 05, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014]

Everything about this cover radiates heat. The sun is beaming down mercilessly, the spirals mimicking the sun rays, the color palette a strong orange that is highly saturated but not bright. The reader can feel how hot it is in this desert, and all around there's nothing but sand. Sand, sand everywhere the eyes can see, and in the center of the image, a lone black figure braving this infernal bare landscape.

This cover tells us not just the location of where the issue will be set, but it also shows that Dick will be alone out there. It tells us this will not be an action-filled story, but it will be one of survival. Man vs Nature, and nature does not discriminates with her ruthlessness. Dick stands alone facing the elements, but he stands. He is walking, he is not giving up. It would be so easy for this cover to have a close up of Dick's, Helena's, and Midnighter's exhausted expression as they each try to survive, but instead we just see Dick by himself, alone, walking. He does not give up, he does not give in. He survives.

The issue then opens in medias res, immediately presenting the readers with that main conflict: survival. It does not waste any time with unneeded exposition — after all, though Dick would hate this fact, we as readers do not need to know the name of the mother who is dying; we do not need to know the details of Minos’ mission before it all went wrong; we don’t even need to know how Midnighter managed to track Dick and Helena. All we need to know is that Dick and Helena, and Midnighter are all after the Paragon Heart, which belongs to the, as of this page, unborn baby; that ARGUS somehow tracked Midnighter who was fighting Dick for the Heart; and that mid-fight the mother went into labor.

There's an elegance in the way everything is conveyed so well and so quickly in this one page. It's brilliant storytelling from both a writing and a visual stand point.

[King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Janin, Mikel, illustrator. We All Die at Dawn. Grayson. 05, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014. Page 01]

As they crash into the desert, the mother passes away. ARGUS is gone, but our trio and the newborn baby girl are faced with a mightier enemy: The desert. The nearest town is days away, they do not have a lot of supplies, they do not have how to call for help. Here, we’re faced with this issue’s main question: Can they survive this? The answer seems to be resounding “no.”

Let’s take a look at how each of the characters approach this situation.

Helena is pragmatic. She is thinking of the mission, but her expression is troubled. She doesn't see a way out of this. She knows they have to survive long enough for Spyral to eventually find them, but the odds are against them. Given the fact she’s injured, it’s unlikely she’ll ever make it out of this desert. Still, that does not mean she’ll fall into despair. She'll do what needs to be done, but she knows this is not something they can easily get out of. If she goes down, she'll go down fighting. Like I said, she’s pragmatic.

Midnighter, on the other hand, is a pessimist. He is jaded. Why bother trying? Midnighter is a nihilist. “We’re dead,” he says not once, but twice.

Then we have Dick. Beautiful Dick, he holds the baby in his arm like she's the most precious thing in the world. And in this moment, she is. His reply to Midnighter is telling. They aren’t dead. They can't be, because if they are dead, then so is she, so death is not an option. It's not a question of what is practical, of what the mission is, of what the odds are. It's not about being an optimist, either. It's simply about her. She is all that matters and she is entirely dependent on them, so they can't be dead. They cannot let her die, this little innocent child who is not even an hour old. So what will they do instead? They’ll walk. They’ll survive.

[King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Janin, Mikel, illustrator. We All Die at Dawn. Grayson. 05, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014 Page 02-03]

The next page displays what will become the brilliant standard for this issue — open skies, sand, and small figures walking. Everything about it conveys this vastness that is so oppressive in its openness. It's the majesty of Mother Nature.

Note how tiny the figures are. Note how Dick leads the other two, not by a little, but by a lot. In his arms Dick holds the baby, nurses her with the formula from the mother’s bag. In the pages we see Helena struggling, Midnighter drinking water and shedding away his clothes, but Dick remains stoic. He leads, separated — isolated, distant — from the rest, determined, disappearing into the far orange of the page.

In this, we see Dick’s silent determination. It’s notable that he is not trying to make light of the situation through humor. Instead, he is silent. And he walks.

[King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Janin, Mikel, illustrator. We All Die at Dawn. Grayson. 05, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014. Pages 04-05]

As the story continues, Midnighter’s pessimism deepens. It is notable that this issue is the first time Dick and Midnighter have seen each other since Grayson #01. And what does Midnighter do? He lashes out at Dick by revealing he knows who Dick is. This calls back to Forever Evil, where Dick’s identity was revealed to the world. Midnighter is weaponizing Dick’s trauma against him, trying to draw a reaction out of Dick. Not only that, he says that they only way to survive is to kill the baby and use the Paragon Heart. Otherwise, the odds are not in their favor, and he deems this "just walk" strategy is pointless. This is how Midnighter copes with the hopelessness of their situation — he dwells on the negative and lashes out.

Helena reacts to Midnighter by subduing the threat, but she doesn’t comment on his defeatist attitude. Nor on his plan. She is, again, practical. She won’t say they’ll make it, but she won’t allow Midnighter to pose a threat to the mission.

Dick, though… Not once does Dick acknowledge Midnighter’s taunting. Not once, not even to defend the baby. A weaker writer would have tried to get Dick to empathize with Midnighter, to tell him again that they're not dead yet, that they just need to keep trying. Instead, Dick’s refusal to even look at Midnighter shows how he won't even acknowledge the possibility of not surviving. His focus, instead, is all on her. That is what is driving him so that is what has his entire attention. Midnighter's temper tantrum is not even worth his time. Not when her survival is at stake.

I also want to take a moment to take in the environment. In this scene, the first panel shows how tiny the three of them are in the vast desert, the beautiful sky expanding above them. Mother Nature, the issue seems to say, is beautiful, worthy of awe. It is big, bigger than any human. More powerful, too. It is a challenge unlike any Dick has ever or will ever face. It cannot be charmed by him, it cannot be fought against, it cannot be conquered. It is not cruel or evil, either. It simply is, bare and uncomplicated, honest at all times. To survive her, Dick must also be the barest, least complicated version of his self.

While writing this, I often felt myself hesitating when writing about the conflict between Dick and desert. Phrases like “go against the desert,” often came to my tongue, and I had to swallow them back due to how wrong they felt. To “go against” someone (or something) is to have an antagonistic, adversarial relationship, and I’m not sure that is incredibly accurate to this scenario. The desert is indifferent towards Dick and the others. Midnighter speaks of fighting, of winning, of conquering this challenge, but Dick, by contrast, is quiet. He is not trying to “win” against the desert. That is not the right frame of mind. Rather, he is simply trying to survive.

[King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Janin, Mikel, illustrator. We All Die at Dawn. Grayson. 05, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014. Pages 06 - 07]

As time passes, Midnighter continues to talk. To taunt. His negative attitude doesn’t light up, and he is still trying to get a reaction out of Dick. Here we see that Midnighter is perhaps not fully comfortable with his enhancements, like he doesn't see himself as fully human because of them. He resents them even as he trusts his enhancements more than he trusts his own abilities. He says he sees all outcomes and there are none where they survive this. Not as humans. Not without the Heart.

Note how Midnighter presents their situation as not about being tough, but about how much energy you have. This framing seems to reject the idea of survival — of “toughing it out” — and instead looks at their situation as one of victory and defeat — you have to have enough energy to make it out of the desert, and in doing so, you’ll be victorious.

Yet, Midnighter predicts himself to outlast Dick, but in reality, he falls before Dick does. This begs the question: Was Midnighter right? Must you defeat the desert and win against it in order to win?

Personally, I believe the story is saying “no.” This is not about victory and defeat, but about survival. And to survive, one must lay themselves bare of foolish things such as pride and ego. To survive, you must dig deeper within yourself, and find something that will allow you to not go against mother nature, but to continue walking along side her.

Dick has found his something deep within himself. That something is his compassion. Helena collapses, and Dick leaves with her his shirt, laying himself bare. Yet, despite his fallen partner, his priority is still the baby girl. He will survive for her, and in this action we see the depths of Dick’s compassion for others. He continues to walk. He continues to survive.

[King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Janin, Mikel, illustrator. We All Die at Dawn. Grayson. 05, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014. Pages 08-10]

Finally, after days, Midnighter is confronted with the true force that is Dick Grayson. He was so certain he was going to outlast Dick. “I have… My… Enhancements. I have powers,” he struggles to say. But what does Dick have? How can a simple man continue to go against these conditions?

This page shows how deeply Midnighter underestimated Dick’s humanity and his compassion. Dick is not a superpowered individual, no, but Dick’s determination is unlike at other. This is who he is… Someone who walks.

Dick is a survivor. When Dick was a small boy, he lost his entire world in a traumatic act of violence. From the moment those ropes snapped and the Flying Graysons plunged to their deaths, Dick became a survivor — someone who had to figure out how to walk forward when everything seemed lost. And Dick did it.

If I can go on a bit of a tangent here, I’ll say that I really dislike whenever child heroes are characterized as child soldiers, be it by fans or by canon writers. This reading is, in my opinion, incredibly lazy and displays a lack of understanding of what superhero identities are meant to stand for. We can discuss the traumas that come along with being a child hero, but to dismiss it as a universally bad thing and equating to the real world horror of child soldiers ignores the fact that this is a fictional world in which the fantastical concepts act as metaphors for larger ideas.

Robin is not a child soldier. Robin, much like Batman, is a response to trauma. Specifically, Dick’s Robin is a response to the trauma of being a survivor of violent crime, and Robin demonstrates how a victim can regain agency and transform their tragedy into an empowering narrative. As Steve Braxi points out in his On Superman, Shootings, and the Reality of Superheroes essay, Batman “transform[s] trauma into will power,” and Dick, whose story is meant to mirror that of Bruce’s, does the exact same through Robin. Through Robin, Dick is able to not only find justice for his parents, but he is also to help other survivors like him. And that is what allows him to keep on walking.

This is what Grayson #05 demonstrates. It strips away the metaphor of the hero identities and the distraction of partnerships, laying Dick out bare and showing that as long as he can help someone, as long as he has his compassion, Dick Grayson can survive anything.

[King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Janin, Mikel, illustrator. We All Die at Dawn. Grayson. 05, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014. Pages 12 - 13]

In the following page, the vastness of the desert is contrasted with close up shots of the baby. We see Dick, so impossibly small standing against a large desert that disappears into the horizon, and ocean of sand and oranges, and we see the whole reason why Dick is still alive. The environment that may kill him is contrasted with the reason why he will survive.

“I’m here. I’m here,” Dick tells the baby girl as she ceases her cries. “I’m still here.”

He gets up… And he walks. The repetitiveness of the action throughout the issue emphasizes the slog of the immediate aftermath of a traumatic event, those moments when you realize time is progressing forward as it always had, but your mind and heart are still stuck in that one moment that changed your life forever. All Dick can do is walk, walk, walk, yet he is still lost in this vast desert, the trauma is still overwhelming him, there’s no end in sight… But he does have his reason for not giving up — his compassion allows him to continue onward.

[King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Janin, Mikel, illustrator. We All Die at Dawn. Grayson. 05, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014. Pages 14 - 15]

Robin Dies at Dawn is the title of Batman #156. In this two part story Batman finds himself in an alien planet filled with threats. Robin saves him from sentient, walking plants, and after escaping, they find a giant stone idol that comes to life and begins chasing them. They manage to leap over a deep fissure and realize that if the stone idol were to do the same, the unstable down would crumble and the stone idol would fall, securing their safety. As they wait for the idol, they see that it, too, realized the ground was unstable and it tries to figure out a safer passage to the other side. That’s when Robin provokes the stone idol, who, in fury, grabs a boulder to throw at Robin. Before it can do it, the floor crumbles and it falls, but boulder still hits Robin and kills him. Later, it is revealed that this was a hallucination induced by an experiment Batman subjected himself to meant to study the effects of loneliness in astronauts. Through the following days, Bruce has occasional hallucinations of alien creatures putting Dick in danger. It isn’t until Dick’s life is threatened by the Gorilla Gang that Bruce is able to “overcome” the lingering effects of the experiment, the threat to Dick’s life being enough to “shock” him back to normal.

[Finger, Bill; Boltinoff, Henry; Schiff, Jack, writers. Moldoff, Sheldon; Boltinoff, Henry, illustrators. Robin Dies at Dawn. Batman. 156, e-book ed. DC Comics, 1963. Page]

To the baby girl, Dick recounts this Golden Age story as if it were a dream, focusing on the part where the stone idol kills him with the boulder. In this tale, we go back to Robin, Dick’s first survival mechanism, and to the first person who first showed him compassion and to whom his survival was paramount — Batman.

Though so far Dick has rejected the idea of victory vs defeat, he presents the baby with a scenario where he is faced with such a conflict. Yet, in this case, to “go up against” the enemy is to call them forward so they will fall. Dick’s taunting leads the stone idol to it’s defeat, and this is the point which Dick says he wants the baby girl to focus on. You must welcome danger, he seems to say, and face it head on. You must walk forward instead of running away.

Yet, it is notable that the enemy is not the only one who is defeated in this story. After all, Dick “dies” at dawn. This is what Dick doesn’t want the baby to focus on, but I think it’s important in understanding this idea of survival. In the story, Dick sacrifices himself so Batman can escape. He goes up against an enemy, he achieves victory, but he does not survive. But, crucially important, Batman does.

This paints a picture where Dick's survival and his victory are not one and the same. Not the way Midnighter seemed to have believed. While Dick’s compassion is intrinsically tied to his status as a survivor of violence, this story seems to indicate that Dick will readily relinquish his own survival for the sake of someone else. In the framing of victories and defeats, other people’s safety -- other people's survival -- is Dick’s “win” condition.

This, I believe, demonstrates how Dick's compassion allows him to pass own his survivor status to others, even at the cost of his own life. By shielding them and giving them the opportunity to move past a trauma, Dick creates other survivors. He becomes their protector, their patron saint.

[King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Janin, Mikel, illustrator. We All Die at Dawn. Grayson. 05, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014. Pages 16 - 18]

Dick Grayson is a lot of things, and he has numerous qualities. He is a partner, a hero, and a friend; he’s good, he’s funny, and he’s brave. While all of those are important aspects of his character, they can also distract from one characteristic that is crucial to Dick’s genesis.

Before he was Agent 37, before he was Nightwing, before he was Robin, Dick was a survivor. Having survived violence, Dick used his compassion to transform his trauma into power. Grayson #05 isolates Dick from the world, putting him in a dangerous and revealing desert to expose his ability to survive through his compassion. This, the story says, is who Dick at the core of his being, when stripped away from the distractions of partnerships and superhero metaphors. This is who Dick Grayson is: He is a man who walks.

Bibliography:

Braxi, Steve, “On Superman, Shootings, and the Reality of Superheroes” Comics Bookcase, September 2021

Finger, Bill; Boltinoff, Henry; Schiff, Jack, writers. Moldoff, Sheldon; Boltinoff, Henry, illustrators. Robin Dies at Dawn. Batman. 156, e-book ed. DC Comics, 1963

Katzman, Gregg. "Interview: Tom King & Tim Seeley Talk GRAYSON." Yahoo! News, 4 Jan. 2015. Accessed 8 Dec. 2024

King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Janin, Mikel, illustrator. We All Die at Dawn. Grayson. 05, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014

King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Mooney, Stephen, illustrator. A Story of Giants Big and Small. Grayson. Annual 01, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014

King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Mooney, Stephen, illustrator. Sin by Silence. Grayson. 07, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014

King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Janin, Mikel, illustrator. Nemesis Part Two. Grayson. 10, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014

King, Tom; Seeley, Tim, writers. Antonio, Roge, illustrator. Spiral’s End. Grayson. 20, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2016

King, Tom; Seeley, Tim; Tynion IV, James, writers. Janin, Mikel; Hetrick, Meghan; Garron, Javier; Lucas Jorge, illustrators. Setting Son. Nightwing. 30, e-book ed. DC Comics, 2014

[zahri-melitor]

The more I read about Duke the more I realise the fandom knows literally nothing about Duke except:

"he's a Robin!" (not really, by any real standards of 'Robin'. He was a leader in We Are Robin, but he's never worked with any Batman under that title)

He's one of Batman's kids! (he was fostered for MAYBE 18 months our time and his parents were also living at the Manor at the same time. He's been with relatives since early 2018: first his cousin Jay and now I believe his mum Elaine since 2022 or so?)

He is a meta with light-based powers (which he does not discover until Dark Nights: Metal and rarely uses on page instead of hitting things with batons)

The other Batkids consider him a sibling! (Uhhh well he has a relationship with Cass, and appeared in several family group scenes while he was fostered, which mostly noted that none of the others knew him as more than 'the new kid'; since he moved out of the Manor he has not done so)

Look, at this point he's an outer Bat family member, on a similar level to Harper Row, Helena Bertinelli, Julia Pennyworth, Luke Fox or maybe at best Stephanie Brown.

Unless you're talking about WFA he's not an inner circle character who is a 'Wayne'.

[docgold13]

Heroes & Villains The DC Animated Universe - Paper Cut-Out Portraits and Profiles

The Huntress

Helena Bertinelli was the daughter of an organized crime overboss named Franco Bertinelli. As a child, she saw her parents murdered by Steven Mandragora, a lieutenant who killed his boss so to take over the Bertinelli empire.  Helena only managed to escape by hiding in a closet; yet she witnessed the whole ordeal and it scarred her for life.  

Sublimating her desire for revenge into crimefighting, Helena went on to become the Huntress.  She trained rigorously and became a world class gymnast and martial artist, capable of disarming and defeating multiple armed opponents.  Her weapons of choice were a self-reloading mini-crossbow and retractable bow-staff.

The Huntress was recruited into the Justice League when the team expanded its roster following the Thanagarian invasion.  Through the League’s resources, Huntress was finally able to track down Steven Mandragora who had recently resurfaced and was turning state’s witness as part of a plea deal.  

With the aid of The Question, The Huntress was able to take Mandragora down.  She had planning on killing him yet ultimately chose not when she saw that Mandragora was with his young son (a child roughly the same age Helena was when she saw her parents murdered).  Although she did not go through with her deadly act, Huntress' recklessness nonetheless resulted in her being expelled from the Justice League.

Undaunted, she continued to fight crime on her own, frequently teaming up with The Question (whom Helena had become romantically involved with).  When The Question was abducted by Project Cadmus, The Huntress alerted Superman and together they broke the Question free from his incarceration.  The Huntress was invited to rejoin the team but declined the offer.   

Some time later, The Huntress investigated strange behaviors on the part of Black Canary.  She discovered that Canary and other female member of the League were being mind controlled and forced to fight in Roulette’s Meta-Brawl.  Huntress and Black Canary worked together to free the others and Roulette’s operation was brought down.  

Actress Amy Acker voiced The Huntress with the headstrong heroine first appearing in the debut episode of the first season of Justice League Unlimited, ‘Initiation.’   

[dchuntress]

while i am irked by the current portrayal of the birds of prey as a team missing its key members from before the reboot, a part of me also finds this likely unintended meta change somehow saying something about helena bertinelli.

she proclaims herself as a bad friend; as someone who doesn't have many friends. she isn't in the birds of prey or any other team presently. this contradicts how in the former continuities, especially when we've seen her eventually open up to other people, become better at this friendship thing, and have even proven herself as a valuable ally to many heroes and teams, showing that she is learning how to be a team player.

her being a lone wolf again is something like this; it's not fair to disregard the meaningful friendships she's had and nurtured and worked for over the years.

at the same time, there is this... cyclic nature. of comic book storylines and character arcs. of destruction and reinvention. of grief and loss.

progress can be a one step forward, two steps back thing.

isolation can also feel pathetically comforting, it's not nice but it is familiar. you never know when you slip back to the unhealthy coping mechanisms you've been working to overcome when the need for self-preservation kicks in, when you feel like your absence will benefit more than your presence.

it is very human for helena to slip back into her self isolating tendencies; i just hope writers treat her with the humanity to explore this, and give her opportunities for connection, teamwork, and friendship again.

p.s.: please don't forget her teaching career too :(

[violent138]

ask game #5 if you could go back and change the outcome of the poll that killed Jason Todd, would you?

Oooh went for the tough one immediately. See this one is weird, because Jason's always been the Robin That Died and Returned to me (spoiled for me early, and I watched the Under the Red Hood animated film when I was still very little). I also think that really intriguing consequences and darkness arose from his death and subsequent return (depressing as it is that such a cute little guy got voted out). I'd be lying if he wasn't an easy character to use, along with Helena Bertinelli, for some complex storylines and ethical quandries. As well as just explorations of guilt, regret, losses of innocence (all around), and some really wicked meta analyses of what it means that the audience wanted that.

Eerie and Roman-like as it is that his death was voted for, I think I'd leave the outcome of the poll as is.

Thanks for the ask!

[mangoisms]

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