#greek myths discourse

[anistrange]

You Know...?

Imagine being a teenager living on an island where a idiot king like Polydectes forcefully tries to marry your mother Danaë and making impossible the live of your adoptive parents unless you accomplish a series of task that involve your death; with a sheer of luck you get rid of Medusa but then you have to rescue a princess whose mother is a pain in the ass from a sea monster, later, fighting the consort of said princess who doesn't give two shits about the well-being of Andromeda, and then rescuing your mother from Polydectes and thanking your adoptive parents with a powerful gesture of giving to them the crown of the island for the Tumblrinas to imagine you as a raging asshole and wanting you dead because D A D D Y Ovid and your pop mythology authors are always right. What a bummer.

[anistrange]

It's like they can't write something original of Perseus that involves Ovid forcefully. 😫🥴

"Perseus was such a coward, he killed Medusa while she was asleep!!!!!" Good for him. Work smarter not harder

[redstarjuly]

I was reading discourse on achilles yesterday and I'm still thinking about some people calling him a r*pist and others saying that other books they've read that are from a woman's perspective completely shifted the perception they have of TSOA's Achilles. And to me that makes little to no sense.

Here's what I come from: Achilles is a character from the Illiad, and the poem itself is pretty much fanfiction. I mean, the person and warrior that Achilles is based on probably existed, and it might have been called Achilles even, but i think we all agree that the rest is dubious.

Since the illiad is like the OG story, people tend to look at it as if it's canon and we'll go with that logic. You have the canon work and poets go off on their own versions of these characters writing tragedies, more epics, thesis, all sorts of stuff, and it goes on for centuries until we reach The song of Achilles and Percy Jackson and all the other 100s retellings coming out which are fanfiction of fanfiction.

And you're letting one fanfiction distort another fanfiction? It's bonkers to me because as someone who has to read the classics and grew up on fanfiction, I don't see that happening elsewhere. Between academics, if we're discussing a myth, we mention the different versions, and we can choose one to go on from, sure. But even so, I never saw someone sound so affected by different perspectives on the same character in class.

And if we're talking on the world of street fanfiction, I most definitely don't find people going "Oh this fanfiction of hermione betraying the order and marrying voldmort changed my perspective of Harry Potter's hermione" you know? -- if that sounds like a stupid example, it's because it is. It's just to show that my whole point is that it's insane to me to let a book ruin another book when the authors are creating different versions of the same characters, which basically turns them into different characters with the same names. Especially since you know, it's all made up. And this isn't real criticism to the people forming their opinions or the authors, respect to all of them.

But it’s a little maddening watching people roll into arguments to discuss what piece of fiction is more real and relevant when they're all in the same level of glorified AO3 works.

I hope this makes sense to someone else

[luckthebard]

Genuinely confused as to how so much of the fandom watched the first 2 CR campaigns and Calamity and yet still ended up in a “Ludinus is right let’s kill all the gods” position. Like it’s baffling to me how much content/context people have just decided to completely forget? We had 2 full campaigns of very positive interactions with the gods and the moment there’s some hypothetical and interesting musing and speculation about their roles in the world from a more disconnected place we’re just throwing that out the window?*

Tbh the number of people who watched episode 4 of Calamity and still saw Asmodeus as sympathetic or having a legitimate point is unsettling to me, but while that’s a related issue it’s not quite the same conversation.

But like legitimately how did we so quickly make a hard turn from “The Stormlord teaches his barbarians to use the power of friendship, he’s a funny kindergarten teacher” memes to…this.

*(This is not, btw a comment on the characters having philosophical debates in-world because I think those are interesting and on-theme for the campaign and are also nearly always concluding with “our personal relationship to individual gods and feelings about them are irrelevant actually, the people trying to destroy them are doing wider harm and are in the wrong and must be stopped.” I’m actually loving the engagement with this by the characters in-universe but the fandom is exhausting me.)

[necrotic-nephilim]

i recently remembered DickTim Week 2024 is happening very soon and i looked at the prompts again to see if i could get anything out for it and. the Hades & Persephone AU prompt for day 1 has got me really thinking so here's a vague concept i plan to write.

i've been pretty burnt out on modern Hades & Persephone retellings because of how they always seem to fall into the same generic "innocent wide-eyed girl runs from her evil mean mother into the arms of a dark mysterious man because actually she went willingly and chose to marry him" which has gotten repetitive for my tastes. (for clarity i don't care if this retelling is your cup of tea personally, so long as you're not actively trying to rewrite the original myth and claim untrue things about it, if this is your favorite flavor i sincerely hope you enjoy the buffet i just have little interest in it since it feels overdone for me and exhausted of it's supposed commentary atp)

but? but. biblically accurate Hades & Persephone AU has me all kinds of interested. because wait listen so hear me out right. Hades!Dick and Persephone!Tim, obviously. i feel it'd be more loosely inspired by with themes and imagery (though playing with death and nature powers could be interesting, i haven't decided) rather than explicitly making them gods and all. but. something dark and fucked up where Dick and Bruce are especially estranged. maybe to do with Jason's return, maybe to do with them just clashing and having their usual explosive arguments. and Bruce knows the peace needs to be kept, if he and Dick are at odds then everyone starts to pick sides and things just fracture so he needs a peace offering.

and the peace offering is Tim.

Bruce (the stand-in for Zeus) offers up Tim. agrees to have Tim move to Bludhaven and be Dick's... whatever Dick wants him to be. knowing that with the implication comes the likelihood of Dick grooming Tim. and Tim has no real say and is hesitant to put up a real fight. he doesn't want this, he knows what this is going to imply Dick will do to him, but he also knows if he says no things have the possibility to just... fall apart. so he's the unwilling bride, dragged off to the metaphorical underworld (Bludhaven) with Dick, away from his family, his friends, the life he built.

and on the flip side, i think weirdly enough, your best pick for the Demeter stand-in is *Jason*. just, hear me out on that. not necessarily on the side of it being motherly, but on Jason being just estranged enough from the Batfamily to be the one willing to call it out for being bad and wrong and raising bloody hell to get Tim back. maybe it's because Jason wants Tim for himself, maybe it's truly out of a concern for Tim to have autonomy, i'm toying with the idea of it primarily being Tim's POV and him genuinely not knowing which of these is true. (and the truth possibly ends up being a complicated middle ground) and because i like Helena, i think you can use her as the Hekate stand in, the one who strikes a tentative alliance with Jason and tries to go find Tim and bring him back. Tim stuck with Dick, getting groomed and hyperaware of it, possibly even getting fucked the whole time as well, knowing he can't go back without causing massive issues for Dick and Bruce because well, Bruce did promise him to Dick. so he has to adjust his whole life, try to figure out being a vigilante in this new city with Dick breathing down his neck the whole time.

and then much like the ending of the myth, a sort of compromise is struck that's a shaky deal for everyone involved. Tim is put on an essential timeshare, going back and forth between Gotham, where he has friends and family and a support system, then getting dragged right back to Bludhaven with Dick in this brutal cycle that he slowly gets used to and stockholm'd into even liking it. Dick isn't so bad, once he gets used to the quirks of their unbalanced 'relationship'. the sex is even something he can adjust to as well. not quite a happy ending but one that sits in this realistic grey area that becomes Tim's life.

i will write this, eventually, but i don't know if i'll get to it before DickTim Week ends so by posting the idea i'm essentially putting it out into the world so the peer pressure holds me accountable. i just. really like the potential of making Hades/Persephone AUs as fucked up as they can be simply by adhering to the source material and making it a raw story of being stolen away and forced to like this new home you didn't ask for.

also a less fleshed-out aspect of this idea i have ties into Persephone becoming the Queen of the Underworld when she's taken and how the transition from Kore to Persephone could be reflected in Tim. how he makes the best of the worst situation and becomes something far more dangerous and dark when he's in Bludhaven, possibly takes on a new vigilante name/identity and leans into the worst quirks of his personality he tries to tamper because there's no point in not going full tilt Obsessively Weird if he has no choice anyway and it being one small way he takes back his autonomy, and that inevitably making Dick *more* into him, because he gets to see Tim finally just. let loose.

[sarafangirlart]

"But whose viewpoints reveal a man who is not, in fact, a hero at all."

Did they tell you that? I can understand Medusa hating him but Danaë and Andromeda?

In this book Danaë is a complete moron who thought telling her son that his father is Zeus is a good idea and getting shocked when he develops an ego problem, she even babies him when he does something wrong but sure this is feminist. In mythology she is a perfectly capable and loving mother who managed to hide Perseus from Acrisius for 3-4 years, you can imagine where Perseus gets his cunning from.

In the book Andromeda is kidnapped and raped by Perseus… just… why? Even if you go with the version that Perseus only rescued her to marry her there is literally no indication that she didn’t consent. Hell in Euripides’ Andromeda she chooses living with Perseus over her parents, it’s such an interesting story about making your own life choices regardless of what your parents say and that story is thrown away for this? To have one of the few female characters in mythology that had a happily ever after get raped to show that men=bad?

Oh Clair Heywood is making a book on why Perseus is actually a villian and not a hero.

Oh Clair Heywood NOT AGAIN. 😭

One thing I've noticed about heroes and myths is that it's really necessary to focus on the ACTUAL ancient GREEK sources. Because if we look at Ovid's versions, many of the heroes become total jerks. So, I guess the same happens with Perseus, I will try to check it later, but I have the feeling that in "ancient Greek imagery" he was a good hero, VS whatever later version we can get of him.

[sarafangirlart]

It’s amusing to me how ppl say it’s “unrealistic” that disabled ppl exist in fantasy. Meanwhile the ancient Greeks (who were violently ableist mind you) didn’t find it unrealistic that Hephaestus as disabled (wether by birth or injury) not a single source states Apollo heals him or anything like that, he’s allowed to exist as he is, even having epithets of his disability. They had no issue viewing a literal deity as disabled but noooo you can’t have your dnd character use a wheelchair that’s just unrealistic!!!

[idamante]

I can tell who's new to studying Greek mythology if they only care about 'shipping siblings'

[fluffypotatey]

It's kind of funny to not ship a Greek relationship due to incest. You do you, but have you seen "canon"

oh buddy…..my sweet anon, you recite the deep magic to me?

[anistrange]

Also, Διονύσιος or ΔΙΟΝΥΣΙΟΣ looks more eye pleasing than Dphioppsisns 😅 cute drawing, but I think corrections can be made 😁

Part of my original art series “Interstellar Olympus”, a reimagining of Greek mythology combined with elements of space.You can purchase prints or wall tapestries of this series at my Online Store

[gilbirda]

[Creator] writing a story based on a myth: Hey this is based on a myth but is my own take, I'm not trying to adapt it or anything.

Assholes on the internet: TOP 10 WORST DEPICTION OF THIS MYTH -> Number one, Story by [Creator]... clearly they don't understand the source material *scoff*

[hecates-corner]

Bit of a random side note but personally don't love using gay as an umbrella term, I think queer is more open. But that might just be me. I agree that we shouldn't be assigning gods sexualities.

Totally hear that! I suppose it does depend on the person.

I use “queer”, personally, but often refer to myself or other mono-homo-attracted people as “gay”. For example, as a lesbian, I am often labeled as “gay”, in short. It all depends on comfort!

But yes! I see a lot of discourse on if Apollo was pansexual or bisexual, or if Athena was aromantic, or if Artemis was a lesbian, and at some point, it simply gets confusing. The gods never labeled themselves, and did as (and who) they pleased. Who is to say what they were/are?

Labels in general, IMO, should one day fizzle out so we may simply be an Us, and not have to divide ourselves based on differences. Like who you like, do who you do, and let that be enough. That mindset has been fed into the concept of the gods, for me.

Thank you for submitting! I adore hearing your thoughts!

[pirunika]

thinking abt how to write Eos and Tithonus romance......bc Tithonus is a black man, this a depiction of their son Memnon i love this art btw how he s gazing at sunrise, as a son of Dawn

um so Eos is white.. well mediterranean or greek..or anatolian at best. Maybe minoan origins (she s a titan goddess but i mean in looks)

Her mother, Theia is very much against this marriage bc she dislikes humans (in my version) but i realized as she s also white she will come across racist 😳 maybe i will change things a bit....

[anistrange]

@coloricioso Sometimes we feel the burnt of the things we like, but is in our best "interest"? in mind to remember why we like those things in the first place. And in the way of how you've handled the greek myths is worthy of respect, you've tried a different perspective and always with the proper care that involves the story, far better than other mainstream producers who do the bare minimum *ahem* Smythe, Miller 😵.

And its certaintly that you've inspired others to do the same, to handle the source material and make stories that dont fall for the same mainstream tropes that we talked to death. You're not alone, you have a lot of people, users from this site who have never doubted about your potential and they understand this feeling and are willing to share your work to the world.

Maybe its a temporary thing, sure, I understand that, but once we remember why we're here, it gives us the strenght to keeo going. Sending you a lots of hugs and my best wishes 🥰🫂

Sometimes I reccomend when someone is feeling down, so I guess this is an opportunity to sharing this song to you 😅, it helped me to overcome a hard time I had not so long time ago. So I hope you can enjoy it 😊.

I’ve been thinking a lot and I’m not really sure anymore if I want to keep writing “ancient Greek myth retellings”, because I don’t see the point. I can do a great job, respecting the sources and being loyal to them, research wonderfully and so on… but what for? Like most of the audience will be composed by these fandom groups who will compare my work to MM novels and won’t be able to appreciate the good work anyway because they don’t even care or know the original sources. So it’s not like there will be any appreciation for being respectful, they won’t notice the parallels, the deeper meaning and etc. I don’t see the point.

Now, a story with OCs “inspired” by Greek myth would still be a private work with probably zero audience, but won’t fall into the fandom stuff or unnecessary debates or disapproval…

So, no idea. I don’t know how to separate my dislike for fandoms and the ignorance of the audience from the work itself.

[persephonaae]

Is this the year I finally get my shit together and write that long winded post about Greek mythology and interpreting it? Who knows

[ghostclothes]

I don't understand people who get up in arms over "misinterpreting" greek myths