#game of thrones criticism

[hell-heron]

Show negative thoughts don't like don't read:

GRRM makes the choice not to show us book Theon's POV before Bran and Rickon's escape, only through Bran's eyes. Thats a cool literary device and so heartbreaking, we are left to wonder oh Theon did it feel good at least while it was happening did you have time to feel any joy and vindication before it all went bad?

This left so much room for D&D to play with a contrast of before and after, lots of room for creative portrayal of this downfall arc, but they... Didn't really? Like obviously there was a downfall in a certain sense but Theon is absolutely in Theon VI mode from the very beginning. We have a scene of him bungling an execution and publicly breaking down, it's moved to before the escape. We have a scene of him being confronted by Ser Rodrik on his hostage/loyalty issues and just plainly admitting how traumatized he is because he's just that broken down and raw etc. And thats also moved before the escape. These are his first actions in Winterfell, in fact. I know time costraints etc but just... How the fuck do you read the Beth parley scene and not find it something so cinematic you absolutely must render, what's wrong with you, couldn't they just merge Beth and Jeyne if that was the issue?

We just get Theon being so sensitive and embarrassing and publicly spiraling from the start and everything that happens is a natural consequence of his own specific brand of patheticness present there from the start, downfall arc routed in the inherent impossibility of ruling mercifully in a conquest situation and cruelty of war etc what is that. Just as with Ramsay we'll helpfully be treated to many good reasons about how the Reek treatment Is tailored on Theon's specific oh so pathetic and sensitive individuality, alienating results of torture and Ramsay are an escapable force of evil what are those.

[uncleasriel]

I'm glad ACOUP.Blog got the recs here, because reading that really got me on the ASoF&I hatedom. It's fine that GRRM likes him some grimdark and his anger at the Vietnam War & American Incompetence and Cruelty pissed him off, and that these books were able to distinguished themselves from the largely feminine Fantasy readership of the late 1980s and early 1990s... but they're not the fuckin' standard gold standard of modern fantasy, kids.

Also, for more evidence for the most people don't want to be assholes train, I recommend A Paradise Build In Hell: The Extraordinary Communities That Arise In Disaster by Rebecca Solnit. It's a look at disasters throughout the past century circa 2009 and the effective cooperation and basic altruism and decency that people do in them. Basically it's a middlefinger in the face of every survivalist asshole who thinks every societal collapse is Mad Max.

I'm grateful that A Game of Thrones finished the job that Jackson's Lord of the Rings started and made fantasy mainstream, but holy crap the number of folks who think those books are hIsTorIcAlLy aCcuRaTe because they have violence and sex and people assholes in them is unreal. GRRM is a good writer, but he's not a good historian nor a good worldbuilder. Stop pretending otherwise.

Someone over on Discord asked, "I'm morbidly curious: How BAD is A Song of Ice and Fire in terms of the authenticity George claims it to be?"

My reply was straightforward:

The long and the short of it is that ASOIAF is basically a vehicle for GRRM to present both his rape fetish and his Hobbesian view on human nature and has less historical accuracy than Frozen or most other Disney movies.

That's actually a good way to think of it, now that I've said it--he's Family Unfriendly, they're Family Friendly, but both have the same relationship with History: just Pure Aesthetic with no consideration for how the worldbuilding would work.

[bi-dykes]

YA novel covers

[rise-my-angel]

I don't know why this needs to be said, but not a single woman who exists in the world of asoiaf, needs to learn as an adult woman, that the patriarchy will not protect her. Every single woman in that world by the time they reach adulthood, are fully aware that they are at the will of the men around her and can only navigate as best she can regardless of that.

And a woman who was maritally raped at 15 and forced to give birth to 4 children before the age of 20, certainly does not need to learn this lesson in the second season of the show when she's in her 30's. Alicent Hightower was fully aware that men will not protect her. That the patriarchy will not protect her. And that she needs to stand alone amongst those men and do as best she can regardless of what obstacles she will face from those men along the way.

Alicent learned that lesson already and it was literally the entire fucking point of this scene:

[spacerockfloater]

Cersei Lannister & Rhaenyra Targaryen:

Are forced to marry someone they don’t love, so they find solace in the arms of a family member and commit incest

Seduce members of the Royal Guard

Have their husbands murdered because they didn’t like them

Have three bastard kids

Commit atrocities to claim the Iron Throne

Betray their allies when they feel threatened

Rule with fire and blood

Live in constant paranoia so they murder innocent servants whom they believe will betray them, even if said betrayal would be a direct consequence of the way they treat their subjects

Are hated by the people

and lets us not forget the -

But no, please go ahead and tell me all about how Rhaenyra is this feminist icon who has the divine right to rule over hundreds of thousands of people because her daddy said so, therefore if I don’t support her I’m a misogynist.

[florisbaratheons]

It still enormously pisses me off that we never got to see Grandma Alicent. A blurry, dark shot of her carrying Jaehaera for two seconds doesn't count. Alicent adored her grandchildren, she fought immensely for them to be safe - it was her idea to smuggle them out of the castle when they knew Kings Landing was about to fall. Aegon trusted her enough to put Maelor into her direct care after Helaena began to lose her sanity.

She never calls her grandchildren by their names. She says Jaehaerys' name once and calls them both "the child/her child" when speaking to other people. She never references them as her grandchildren. The dehumanization of those children and their grandmother's relationship to them (not including their mother's, but that's another ball of wax) is just really icky.

[junewild]

new asoiaf/got worldbuilding discourse just dropped! check out the author’s blog for more thoughts on asoiaf, lotr, and more.

[fortunethief]

Absolutely LOVE this look!

[danyyytarggg]

one of my gripes about house of the dragon is the lack of a true royal court. in game of thrones, we were shown a red keep bustling with people, both servants and nobility alike. we were shown ladies-in-waiting and noble men and women at court attempting to seek favor from the royal family like cersei, margaery, etc. there were always people around and spectators to be careful of when conducting your business in the castle. we really are not gifted this in house of the dragon. sure, we’ve seen some small glimpses of the royal court and castle life but nothing significant enough to even be close to comparable to that of game of thrones, which is such a shame because it adds so much to the idea of nobility/royal life. in a way, it makes hotd sort of dull, lifeless, and empty in the red keep, dragonstone, driftmark, etc. as well as making the world small and sort of isolating around the targaryens/velaryons/royalty/small council, and not even in an “untouchable” sort of way, just sort of in a “there’s just nobody around” way. not to mention, depicting the royal court/nobility more would be significant in a show centered around a power struggle for the throne. and seeing team green and team black truly navigate court prior to viserys’ death as well as during this war would have added so much more to the story such as depth, significance, etc. even in appearance, the red keep seems dull whereas in game of thrones, the castle was vibrant, decorated, bustling.

this also plays a role in that i’m personally not a fan of how the show depicts royalty/nobility. from the lack of extravagant clothing (though i feel like the show has done just a tad bit better this season), lack of court/castle life, to the way people tend to blatantly disrespect the royal family without punishment (with the exception of vaemond), even the way they sometimes speak, the show lacks in giving me the sense of “THESE are the TARGARYENS. THIS is how ROYALTY are like. THIS is how the HIGHEST NOBILITY live.”

personally, the show just isn’t depicting royalty/royal court/castle life/nobility to the extent it should and can even come across as sloppy at some points.

[the-loststone]

I'm very anxious that the show is going to exclude Maelor from the story. Just write him out like they did Daeron. You know what excluding Maelor does? It takes the choice of the eldest son versus the youngest son and makes it a choice between the heir/the son and the daughter.

Helaena's choice was about who would understand what decision was being made. She chose Maelor, a heartbreaking choice she was forced to make or to watch both her children be killed and her daughter r*ped, because she thought he wouldn't understand what was happening. He was three years old at the time. She thought it would be less painful for him compared to Jaehaerys.

Taking Maelor away means that the choice will be between Jaehaerys and Jaehaera. Its the choice between the heir and the daughter. We already know that they will never let Jaehaerys live because he is a son, he is the heir, and the entire concept of the revenge was 'a son for a son.' Its not a choice. Jaehaera never counted. It means that the choice is the value of a daughter, which we already know they don't actually consider, versus the son. Of course they're killing the son over the daughter.

You know what else it does, it takes another character away from the greens, another tragic death. Meanwhile all the Blacks get to keep their characters (with the exception of Nettles, but of course we can't have a character that poorly reflex on Rhaenyra). Maelor was a toddler murdered by a mob incited by Rhaenyra's actions. His corpse was delivered to Rhaenyra essentially as a prize instead of returned to his family.

Maelor is an essential character to show the cost of the war on house Targaryen. I hope that the showrunners do the right thing by keeping him in, otherwise it's just a blatant attempt to rewrite the tragedy.

I will never get over how one-sided they made this conflict in the show.

[daeneryscel]

hot take maybe but the only reason most show runners/producers/writers/etc. age up the (female) characters from book to show adaptation is to overtly sexualize them and not face mass amounts of scrutiny for it.

put 13 year old daenerys next to 30 year old drogo and the audience understands that daenerys is a victim to him and not an equal. put 22 year old emilia clarke as daenerys next to 32 year old jason mamoa as drogo and they’re seen as a budding romance with a tragic ending (by the general audience) due to their on screen chemistry.

flash forward to today, and now we’re dealing with 21 year old milly alcock playing rhaenyra from 14-19 and how her relationship with (28 year old fabien) a mid twenties criston is seen as -morally acceptable- and not a result of a degenerate pedophile taking advantage of and grooming his charge. “ser criston protects the princess from her enemies, but who protects the princess from ser criston?” rhaenyra was 14 when rumors started speculating that she slept with an almost 30 year old criston. a criston who had know her since she was 8 and had been her sworn shield since she was 9. obviously seeing a teenager in the early stages of puberty next to a fully grown man would emphasize rhaenyra being THE victim, as opposed to the show having an 18-19 year old explore her sexuality and seek out ��consensual’ sex with her peer bodyguard. the discourse has even reached the point where certain stans try to paint the much younger woman as the perpetrator and aggressor of this event, who forced the unassuming man into having sex with her.

i’ll even take this a step farther, and bring up how if they had shown a 19 year old alicent abusing a 10 year old rhaenyra it would be identified and mutually agreed upon as a reprehensible act on alicent’s part. instead they’re of similar age, so people can attempt to paint the picture as two women of equal standing hating each other, and not a much older woman bullying a motherless child. once again however, some stans even go so far as to try and paint alicent as a victim of rhaenyra, and not the other way around. further cementing this is how both versions of alicent are younger than both versions of rhaenyra, AND how criston is still played by an actor who is younger than older!rhaenyra despite his character being the same age as daemon in canon.

they know exactly what they’re doing too, considering they aged alicent down to give her that innate compassion one typically feels when seeing children being abused on tv (something that can no longer be applied to rhaenyra). despite that never being her story; *she* was the abuser, and rhaenyra was her victim. criston’s victim. it’s a nasty cop out, and i wish more people would call out how sickening it is to flip the switch and attempt to make abusive individuals more sympathetic than the *actual* victims of said abusers.

[qyburnsghost]

They deleted Nettles to make Rhaenyra look better, but invented Dyana to make Aegon look worse!

[rise-my-angel]

Just a quick reminder since season two seems to not have understood this whatsoever, the King in the North, Torrhen Stark, did not bend the knee in peace to loyally unite the Kingdoms to someone he believed in.

He and his army arrived to fight the Targaryeans, only to arrive and realize that Harrenhal, one of the strongest structures ever built in Westeros, had been turned into this after being attacked with dragonfire:

Torrhen Stark bent the knee out of fear that the Targaryeans would do this to the North next should he choose to fight back against them as he originally intended to do.

The Starks bent the knee not out of any loyalty, but out of a great fear for a destructive power the devastating likes they had never seen in their lifetime. Knowing that were he to refuse, his entire countrymen's lives would be considered forfeit, and this too would become the ruins of the castles and lands in his Kingdom.

Fear does not spark loyalty. It only creates resentment in secret.

[valkyriepegusus]

As much as I want GRRM to finish and publish Winds of Winter, honestly I can’t even blame him for not being in any sort of rush to do so.

If I were him, and I spent like half my life writing bible sized books— with thousands of pages of additional material that is primarily focused on how the mistreatment of women and the concept of purity culture is extremely destructive and harmful, why heredity monarchies are dangerous, and how biased misogynistic men will manipulate history, only for people to unironically support male primogeniture, be proudly “bastardphobic”, rank characters based on their ability to fight, and sympathize with slavers. I would genuinely just not finish the series as a punishment like I don’t even blame him for not being eager to publish more content just for people to grossly misconstrue.

[got-brainrot]

when i watched HotD (with no knowledge of the book) i was like, ok this is a bit cringey they’re obviously trying to make a pro women narrative and it’s turning out a bit cringe but whatever; and the more i learn abt the actual book the more i’m like, not whatever actually! why is this shit so cringe when you could’ve had much more powerful womens stories if u just stuck to the fucking book plot lines. in trying to make a “feminist retelling” they have just, stripped? most of the female character of most of their personalities??? I can see where they’re coming from w certain ideas, like having Helaena chose her daughter over her son could work in certain stories, but learning abt the book and how important Maelor was to that story it’s just, weird af that they did that? it feels LESS feminist to take away a huge part of Helaena’s story for this like middle school level lesson that daughters r infact just as important as their princely brothers and u probably shouldn’t sacrifice them to kidnappers, like thanks i think we all knew that actually,,,

tired of men trying to make feminist movies with their 3rd grade level understanding of feminism

[frazzledsoul]

I'm not the biggest fan of GRRM (just finish the books, hire a ghostwriter, or tell us how it ends, my man) but I do find it hilarious that people are trying to fact-check him on Heleana's suicide and tell him he doesn't really know how she died and that Condal is actually right and that GRRM's version of the story is just "propaganda" intended to sully the name of Saint Rhaenyra.

Dude, he invented her. Fire and Blood is his story. He invented her, he invented Rhaenyra, he invented the tragedies of Heleana's life and how Rhaenyra contributed to them, and he invented Rhaenyra being a terrible queen whose mistakes led to her own downfall. The real issue here (and probably why GRRM chose to go after Ryan publicly when he didn't go after D & D) is that Ryan outright said that the show story is the "real one", the book GRRM wrote is wrong, and only he is able to carry forth the "real" version of what happened. Ryan could just have said that the canons were different, but he got carried away with the adulation of the fans and chose to dismiss the source material as being illegitimate. That's probably the key reason why GRRM lashed out.

I'd also like to point out here that it's been claimed that Rhaenyra retained baby weight after six kids is "propaganda" (Hess even claimed that being fat made her evil), that Aegon's bond with Sunfyre is a lie, that the notion that Blood and Cheese was morally wrong was a lie, that even the existence of Heleana's third child was a lie ... Ryan and Sara could have said that their story was different, but they didn't. There have also been fan rumors since House of the Dragon started that Game of Thrones is an illegitimate version of the story and that the "real story" is what would happen in House of the Dragon and be a reflection of the unwritten ending of ASOIAF, where Daenerys is a glorious queen who will survive the end of the story and vanquish her foes singlehandedly.

Now I guess maybe ASOIAF isn't even good enough?

Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if both Rhaenyra and Daenerys's deaths are ret-conned by the end of this.