#flowey is trying to be a good friend

[fish0fscience]

ughhhhh sketchess + undyne's first panic attack I guess

she's not good at handling arguments

[wickjump]

praying for the day people realize asriel saying "chara wasnt really the greatest person" is more in reference to his idolization of them and him finally admitting that he doesnt have to follow them blindly anymore, because even after they died, their beliefs still stuck with him. and not "yeah chara, my dead sibling (who is like 11 years old) that i miss a lot and clearly care for immensely despite everything? evil. i am explicitly saying that they are evil. and they only wanted to kill the dreemurrs and also everyone else. did you get that down? write that down. they are evil forever."

becajuse... chara is not evil... chara isnt even a bad person... asriel doesnt say they are a bad person!!!!! he says they "werent the greatest". guys im begging you to realize this.chara was a kid!!! who literally killed themselves because they wanted to free monsterkind!!!! come on!!!! it’s 2024 I thought we were past seeing people say chara is canonically evil and terrible and grrrrrr

[charafansmile]

Asriel could easily be like the god of familial love, of hopes and dreams, partnerships (friendships, companionship, puppy love if you must) and children/youth and then when he's flowey he could be the god of betrayal and spite, ala nemesis and eris. Still rooted in the ideas of love but twisted into what happens when love turns sour. Still a god of youth but also a god of lost time. Actually making him a minor god of time would also really work to tie into his character. Him being Pandora and the box at the same time would be interesting.

Transcript: ooh are we talking about reapertale? okay time to bring flowey into it because i was actually thinking about him recently—

first off, unrelated tangent, i think they did chara pretty decently? like, they used to be kind, but they were betrayed by monsterkind, etc etc. i like that, it honestly brings up what i think is a tragically unexplored part of their character. they hate monsterkind in some way for being so nice, and i think that’s why we can drive them to support genocide so quickly. i do think they shouldn’t have been evil right off the bat, of course, but hey! they’re a mythological figure. that stuff happens a lot in mythology, and more importantly it works in tangent to undertale.

flowey, though. god. amnesia does not suit him. they stripped him of character and expected him to still be flowey. it’s illogical. really reflects the early fandom’s perception of flowey and asriel as entirely different people. like being a flower makes you want to kill people or something. smh.

sorry i turned the topic to flowey but like. does he have to be the embodiment of despair. him being obsessed with chara is in-character i guess but he does it in such an out-of-character way. honestly that’s a big problem with every au! they make him a sweet little guy without actually addressing the roots of his canon problems. i mean, that or they make him the living embodiment of evil. they gave him the chara treatment, seriously.

he has so many layers though. it’s hard to fit him into one category. personally i’d make him some kind of pandora’s box thing. like an embodiment of the world’s pestilences where he used to be a closed box. helps highlight that he didn’t change, the box was always there, dying just opened it.

that might not make any sense. but man i’m tired of people making flowey chara’s lapdog. when in genocide he clearly sees himself as a partner in crime, at least until the end. (and then he defies them and ruins the whole killing humanity thing. so.) and don’t even get me started on pacifist. he tries to kill you repeatedly because he thinks you’re chara.

flowey is driven by (platonic!!) love. but it’s not the soft love you see on greeting cards or tv. it’s angry love. aggressive love. he’d do anything for the person he loves. even kill them.

honestly, maybe flowey would work better as a god of love. (yes i headcanon him as aroace but still.) “asriel” is soft, caring love. hugs and kisses and warm blankets and all that. “flowey” is the kind of love that slaps you in the face to get you up in the morning. he’s possessive, angry, passionate.

WHOO this got long.

[inbarfink]

One common Undertale misconception that really frustrates me is when Sans is portrayed with a strong innate sense for RESETs and alternative timelines. Like, that he remembers the RESET timelines better than the other characters who only have occasional feelings of deja vu or even that he can sense when a timeline is RESET.

And that’s, like, almost the opposite of the actual text of the game. While pretty much every main character can have slightly-different dialogue in a Not-True-RESET, especially if the Player had previously befriended them, based on the idea that they have lingering memories/feelings from before the RESET - 

Sans has no real dialogue changes based on this conceit. All of his changes are based around noticing Frisk has different reactions based on their memories of the precious timelines. 

Other characters do also make observations like that about Frisk, like Mettaton and Toriel. But Sans is distinctive because this is the only way his comments change between RESETs and there are a lot of them from him.

Because that is what really frustrates me about this misconception. People mention it as one more thing that makes Sans cool - but the actual truth is far more badass. Sans is one of the people in the Underground who remembers RESETs the least. I think memory-resistance to RESETs is probably tied to Determination. Flowey, the second-most Determined person in the Underground after Frisk, can remember everything perfectly.

Everyone else has some vague feelings and deja vus. And Sans, he’s the least motivated person in the Underground - both in the sense he’s lazy and in the sense he’s fucking depressed.

That probably means he has very little Determination. Thus, he doesn’t remember anything that happens between RESETs.

And yet, he is still the character most aware of them. Because he has the technological know-how to read and analyze timelines.

And because he has the observation and analytical skill to notice a RESET from other people’s reactions and behavior. Whatever it’s Papyrus thinking he recognizes someone or Frisk’s behavior implying that they know something they shouldn’t have. Sans main RESET-related skill is just being able to identify these moments and come to the correct conclusion about them. And with that he manages to be the most aware character in the entire Underground.

Like, the one point where it might seem like Sans remembers something from a previous Timeline is the Fake Spare scene during his boss battle. 

But it’s all pretend. Unlike the previous lines from other characters that I mentioned, this dialogue plays even if the Murder Route is the first time the player touched the game. Sans isn’t remembering anything in this scene. But he makes an educated guess that the Immoral Time God probably tried using their powers for good at first, so they were likely ‘friends’ in a previous timeline. And in most cases, his guess is right on the money - tricking many players into thinking this is another case of the game actually reacting to their past actions.

And as always, Sans can only tell if his lil’ trick worked or not based on the expression of the Player Character.

Arguably, Sans even uses his lack of Determination and cross-RESET memory to his advantage in his boss battle. After all, the whole point of this fight isn’t to kill the Player - Sans understands this is impossible. This is a war of attrition, trying to get the Player so frustrated and annoyed with the unfair fight that they just ragequit or RESET the Timeline. And this war of the Player’s patience versus Sans’ stamina and will is infinitely easier for him when he doesn’t actually perceive all the Player’s previous attempts against him.

Like, for the Player this might be the billion time they go up against him, they’re aware of some of his patterns and tricks now but they’re probably also frustrated and angry and exhausted. Meanwhile, from Sans’ POV, this is still the first time this is happening. He knows it’s not from the Player’s behavior and Frisk’s expression - but he doesn’t feel it like the Player does. 

He doesn’t feel the frustration and repetition of the endless stalemate. So he’s always as fresh as a daisy no matter how rugged the Player is getting.

And that’s part of why Sans is so cool in the first place, like, in general. He’s technically the weakest person in the Underground, lacking in every standard evaluation of power in the setting - no ATK, no DEF, no HP, no DETERMINATION. But he’s darn clever enough to overcome these weaknesses and even use them in ways that make them into strengths, enough to be one of the most dangerous and most aware guys in this whole setting.

Sans can’t remember anything, and that makes him awesome.

[orilimbs]

There's no time to explain who am I, so im gonna show you my own take on Horrortale Yellow.

This au's name doesn't need to be explained, the underground sets in an uncanny ambient after a neutral route in general, but based on Undertale Yellow's timeline, the underground sets in this ambient after a neutral route made by Integrity.

Each area like The Dark Ruins and Snowfall (Lower Snowdin) are based on the horsemen of the apocalypse in order: Death (Ruins), Pestilence (Snowdin), Famine (Dunes/The Wild East), War (Steamworks and UG Apartments), and finally, the last area called "Clover's judgement" can be heaven or hell depending of the route (genocide, neutral or pacifist (NOT FLAWED), where your fate will be sealed if you choose to fight Zenith Martlet, Kitsune Ceroba or Flowey.

Monsters CAN bleed in this au if they arent at a very low HP but still damaged, if they lost all their HP they turn into dust normally along with the blood.

I dont have enough energy to explain every character's deep lore on this au, so im gonna say their general characteristics:

Clover is 10-years old, they escaped from home and fell from a mountain on accident, without having any bandages or any gun, they have to dodge every attack to not to die. They fell in a flower bed that had spines on it, making them lose a part of their vision and getting hurt, leaving them with a very low HP permanently at the beginning.

Dalv is a REAL vampire this time, he will try to attack Clover no matter if theyre friends or not, but Dalv knows is better for Clover to leave his house for their own good if they want to survive. Dalv is selectively mute and has vampire urges that need to be satisfied. He lost a horn in a fight that he doesnt remember.

Martlet lives in Snowfall where there is a fungus infection that was born after the dust mixed with very cold snow on trees that made a fungus live on fruits and honey panels. Martlet is infected and a bit hungry, but she would never attack a poor child. She's vulnerable to cold and diseases, she's is in the late-third phase of infection where fungus take place on her physical body and cant fly.

Ceroba lives in the dunes where everyone fights and eat themselves to survive, concluding on cannibalism and blood, everyone is hungry and will attack anyone who steps on the area. Ceroba has a scar on her left eye like Clover and has insomnia to protect Kanako and Chujin, who are alive but need to be feed. She has SEVERE problems with Orion (Starlo's brother).

Axis was created after Integrity's neutral route where The Integrity Incident never happened, Axis serves as a doctor and emergency robot, when he was closed in the Steamworks, the Steamworks and UG Apartments summerged on war due to being trapped by their own creators. Axis is mute due to his "radio" being damaged, he is a pacifist and tries to help Clover until Clover and Ceroba wrongly attack him.

I will drop more information later, but these are the most important ones. The others who I didnt included (Decibat, El Bailador, Starlo, Orion, along with others) are secondary or important to a specific character's development. Here are the old designs, some of them stay the same and others changed a little bit or generally.

[forgettable-au]

Hi!! Does Undyne know Wingdings in this AU? Like what kind of relationship do they have? Or did they not know each other at all?

Also! Does Wingdings consider Alphys as a friend? Or like is he just very professional about it and sees everyone as colleagues? And like does he feel sad if he doesn’t have friends? Cause i know the current Papyrus feels very upset (I think) because he doesn’t have as many friends as Sans or something like that

1- Does Wingdings know Undyne?

Nope! They don't know each other

2-Does Wingdings consider Alphys a friend?

Uh... he's not quite there yet..... but let's give him some time....

3- Is he sad that he doesn't have any friends?

He has friends!!! Like!!!! Sans!!! And!!! Himself!!!

Okay, but seriously, he's not sad about it because he gave up with that a long time ago

It's not something he cares about so it doesn't make him sad, he's not lonely! Sans is there! That's probably enough! Maybe!

Papyrus DOES care a lot about relationships and connections with other people, but he has no experience, he's trying really hard though!!

The fact that he had no clear idea of what he wanted or why he wanted it wasn't helping him either

And yeah it must have felt bad that no matter how hard he tried he just seemed to fail where his brother succeeded without trying

But don't worry! Right now in the post pacifist timeline he's been doing quite good! There's still progress to be made but he's friends with Undyne and frisk, he's been getting to know Asgore, Toriel and many other people, he's still training with Alphys, he's met new people in the surface and he's been hanging out with Flowey much more!

[clevercatchphrase]

As the story is going forward, asriel has been getting more on the 'Overprotective' and controlling type person. He has learned even guilt trip. How did you figure out these personality traits From canon asriel?

I took all of Flowey's worst qualities and watered them down until I felt a kid could logically embody those qualities, too. Flowey is, after all, Asriel at his absolute worst. And what are some traits about Flowey we know? He's controlling (like his save scumming in his omega flowey fight to always get the upper hand), manipulative (guiding you towards the best ending for his own plans) and obsessed with Chara (to the point of not wanting to live in a world without them). Heck, even at the end of the TP route when you fight hyper death Asriel, his monologue STILL depicts him as controlling and obsessed with Chara, even after he has souls inside of him again. (like him wanting to reset the world so that "chara" can never leave him, and they can play together for ever)

Asriel always had the potential inside of him to become Flowey with all those cruel tendencies, though probably the reason those tendencies manifested to begin with in the game's story was from him lacking a soul which then diminished his empathy after he died and was resurrected.

In the flashbacks of this comic, Asriel still has his soul (for the time being). If someone were to ask him if it was okay to control his friends, he'd say "no, that's wrong", but he also knows it's wrong for his friend to try and hurt themselves, and will do whatever it takes to prevent that. He uses his concern for their well-being as a justification to micromanage everything they do. In his mind he's "protecting" them, he's "helping" them, he's "saving" them, and that is a "good thing" so it "doesn't count" as controlling them. He doesn't even know what guilt tripping is. Let's also not forget that Asriel's a kid with little life experience and honestly doesn't even realize what he's doing is harmful in other ways. If an adult explained to him why his tactics for protecting Chara could cause more harm than good, he'd be truly horrified.

Sadly, both Chara and Asriel have each hurt the other (be it intentionally or unknowingly) which makes them both reluctant seek out help from adults. For Asriel, if he told his parents what Chara was trying to do, he fears Chara won't trust him or be his friend anymore. For Chara, if they were to tell an adult that they don't like the way Asriel is treating them, it would mean having to explain why he's treating them like that, which would also mean having to explain their plans of self-sacrifice, which they know would make the adults upset, and could potentially lead to punishment. (of course the Dreemurrs would never hurt Chara, but Chara just Will Not take that risk due to bad experiences they had in the past from their time on the surface). And tragically, their attempts to help the other in their own flawed, naive ways leads to each of their undoing.

[littlehappyrabbit]

So I'm very curious in the Corpse Possession scenario, how do the main cast's relationship to Clover change and how are they impacted? Does it effect how close they get to Clover since they're a bit more off putting?

They definitely are the strange person to be around thats for sure Dalv is completely unaffected, still having moved to snowdin but with Flowey having no actual reason to go back to the place, his friendship and last impression of Clover has not changed! But Clovers friendship with the others definitely won't be going as peachy, a creepy silent kid who stumbles around isn't the first candidate you wanna try and be friends with. Starlo's enthusiasm upon meeting Clover won't change, but as the attempted missions go (keyword being attempted), and more oddities are noticed, it'd definitely be a strange deputy and sheriff duo. Minus Dalv, Starlos friendship with them wouldn't be too different, he can overlook their weirdness. Cerobas friendship with Clover will not be able to happen, unable to even tell if they possess a pure soul, she won't accompany them in the steamworks, and unlike Starlo, she'll be more on edge.

Axis will be one of the characters that reallly notice something just isn't right, and like somebody else who presents themself as to much of a problem, hes dealt with. Martlet will continue to stick with Clover in the same way she normally would in a normal pacifist, probably to brush their weirdness off first as a hit on the head, but when the encounter on the hotels roof comes along, theres somethings she has questions about, and she doesn't think the answers are good ones. (coughcough hey Clover whats with the vines coming out of your chest?)

[corpupine]

I've been doing a lot of thinking...and I feel like I need to scream this out somehow even though I'm sure it's been talked about before (and I'm putting it under a readmore because it gets long).

No matter what, in any playthrough you do and any timeline you create.

UNDERTALE is a game about guilt.

You have Toriel, so guiltridden she couldn't protect her own children that she devotes herself to never letting another child leave again. And then they do!! over and over again, that guilt compounds until it's the center of her life and every choice she makes!!

And obviously Asgore, so guiltridden that he couldn't protect his own children from humans that he spends the rest of his days trying to get out and get revenge on them--as if that will stop the voices in his head saying, if you had been out there with them you could have stopped it, you could have stopped those humans from killing your children, and maybe he could have!! Or maybe not!! He'll never know and it eats him from the inside out!

Alphys, oh my sweet summer child this fandom does not deserve you!! Alphys, so guiltridden from her own perceived failures as a scientist that she began to try anything, anything to make the King happy, and it seemed to be working at first, and then it was so everlastingly worse, how can you cause something worse than death?? without even trying??

And it shows up in little ways, silly ways, too! Ways you wouldn't even think about as guilt! Undyne! She feels guilty that she won't let Papyrus join the Royal Guard so she gives him cooking lessons instead! Papyrus feels guilty that he's not in love with you after one date so he'll "keep being your cool friend and act like this never happened!"

SANS MY BOI don't even get me started. His guilt isn't as physically obvious but he made a promise to toriel, he promised her he would keep the human safe, and in timelines where you save everyone he follows you pretty much all throughout the Underground (even if he doesn't do anything to help smh) because he'd feel guilty not doing it, and in timelines where you kill everyone he feels guilty for not stopping you, AND in those SAME timelines he feels guilty for stopping you because it means he's breaking his promise to Toriel to keep you safe I!!! This boy can fit so much cosmic guilt in him!!!!

Asriel! FLOWEY!! Do you ever wonder if he feels guilty about being the one to wake up again? The one to survive, when Chara had to die twice?? He sits at their grave and he will do anything, anything to drown out those thoughts so he befriends and kills and torments and it's all the same and it's all useless!!

And their guilt compounds each others'! Toriel makes Sans make that promise because of her own guilt, which increases his! Asgore's guilt is what pushes Alphys so far past the limits of ethical science, because he increases hers!

And all of this, all of this, ALL OF THIS pales in comparison to you!!!

You!! The player! You return to the Underground after maybe accidentally killing Toriel or a few others because you didn't know, you never wanted to hurt them!! You listen to Flowey and you come back and you save them all!

You! The player!!! You cry at the ending and you'd feel guilty, so guilty about letting them all go, wouldn't you? So you ignore Flowey's pleas to let it alone, and you come back again, you say hello to your dear friends but this time it isn't the same, this time you kill them all because you want to see everything this game has to offer, might as well get your money's worth, the fights are cool, right?? And then you get hit with the most unsatisfying atomic bomb of an ending and the only thing left is your own reflection staring back at you from the black screen of your computer as the horror dawns, what have you done???

YOU!!! The player! You go back again even though there is no Flowey left to tell you to, and you save them all again because I'm sorry, I'm so so sorry, nobody deserves what I did to all of you, and it's all good, nobody remembers, and then you get to the end. The game knows what you did!!! It never forgot, and it'll make certain you never forget either!! Guilt!! Guilt, guilt!!! It's baked into the code of this game!!

Anyways tl;dr, maybe it actually did make sense to give this game to the pope

[sukifoof]

HI WATCH OUT FOR UNDERTALE YELLOW SPOILERS . ANYWAY

watched the ut yellow neutral end and ohhh i am losing my MIND... just. thinking about how flowey is only willing to move on in the true pacifist route. the route where he sees kindness and a genuine want to help others in a human child. asriel died to save humans because of the people he was surrounded with. toriel asgore and chara are people who feel very strongly for those around them and he couldn't take human lives when the only human he knew was chara. a kid who cares enough about the people around them to sacrifice themself, just like the way his parents are.

flowey comments on toriel letting herself go because she cares so much and how we wouldn't have to feel so bad if we simply didn't care. his whole coping mechanism is distancing himself from others and Not Caring because if he allows himself to feel it'll just completely destroy him. he felt for the humans on the surface even when they were attacking him and the way he treats clover in neutral vs pacifist says a lot about his want to see good in others.

hes constantly pushing frisk to go with options that benefit everyone and while he worries about clover caring about those around him he seems to really appreciate it. at any moment he could just do whatever he wants with clover's life. the only route in which flowey allows them to make their own choices with their life is when they're being a good person and he just can't help but call them a friend because that's the type of person he's always wanted to be around. that's the type of person that's home to him!!

and i keep thinking about how he just couldn't let clover live out their life with toriel in the ruins. something something toriel trying to make up for feeling like she failed asriel and chara and flowey feeling replaced and clover being stuck in a small place for the rest of their life. i have thoughts on this that i don't know how to put into words but i'm not at all surprised flowey wasn't okay with that. of Course he wasn't. hes flowey. he has every issue ever. i think that allowing clover to live with toriel would make flowey feel like he really has to accept that he can't just go back to the past and he's not ready to come to terms with anything that's happened yet

flowey always insists he doesn't care and he can't feel as a result of his trauma but it's so clear from his regret and fondness for people who are compassionate that compassion is something he always strives for. even though he doesn't understand and can't understand it's always something he wants to see in others. it hurts to be compassionate and to love others and it's why he blocks it out but at the end of the day he's the same person who sacrificed himself and his sibling to save who knows how many people both in the underground and surface, and the same person who let go of what he believed to be the only way he could stay "himself" for the sake of freeing monsters.

he's such a fascinating character... his mind and heart are at war with each other and i love how undertale yellow goes into this with the way they portray how he reacts to clover's death in the pacifist route. "maybe you've earned your rest" and calling them a friend after trying to act tough... he really respects when others are truly kind despite what some might consider common sense. i don't know where i'm going with this anymore but i hope u guys get it. just imagine i am gripping ur shoulders and pointing at flowey frantically

[luckylarvae]

ISAT LOOP BRAIN DUMP/APPRECIATION POST????

SUPER SPOILERS FOR IN STARS AND TIME, DO NOT READ ANY FURTHER, DEAR TRAVELERS, LEST YOU BECOME SPOILED. BRAVE MEN HAVE DIED HERE. NOW FLEE, THOSE OF PURE OF HEART!!!!!

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ok whores lets get to it.

GOD I love Loop from In Stars and Time, they're SUCH A WELL WRITTEN CHARACTER. Everyone in the group are such sweet hearts and Bonnie is just insensitive but they have a heart of GOLD. BUT LOOP.... Loop is the type of person who will make it worse when you're at your lowest. If you've hit rock bottom, Loop will be there to get a pickaxe and make it deeper while calling you names. If you're bleeding out dying, Loop will pour sea salt into your wounds and call you a little bitch. BUT LOOP IS ALSO NICE?????? Although they do like fucking with Siffrin a bit, they actually give legitimally good advice and do their best to help you and I LOVE THAT.  Unlike other mean characters where they're like "haha fuck you I'm miserable now im gonna make your life worse" Loop is like "haha fuck BOTH of us, haha whiny bitch, now lets try to get out of here." 

ALSO the fact that Loop used to be Siffrin IS SO FACINATING. I just played through SASASA and the ending had me go NUTZ. At the core, SASASA siff and ISAT siff are the same, with really the main difference being that ISAT siff had Loop to help them, while SASASA siff (aka Loop) had no one but themselves. They had no one to give them a reality check, no one to say "u ok bud?" and sat in an echo chamber of their own thoughts. They were also in the loops for FAR longer than Siff. Instead of the mental world ending breakdown we saw in act 5 of ISAT, SASASA siff just... numbed it out. Just an endless cycle of hearing the same monotonous thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, and dying just as much. The fact that they even forgot the gang's NAMES tell you so much. Plus, Loop was doomed to become loop from the very start. In the true ending. Considering that the wish was "I want to stay with my friends" the fact that the loop reset immediatly after killing the king is TELLING. Siffren was able to get information out of the house maiden, while Loop never even got a chance to. That means that no matter what, Loop couldn't have gathered information from the house maiden, and Siffrin most certainly couldn't have broken the cycles without asking the house maiden. That means that no matter what, Loop couldn't have broken the cycles, and was stuck in basically hell for all of eternity. That is, until (presumably after the true ending), they go to the wish tree and ask for "Anyone to help me". THAT is when Loop BECAME Loop. Loop got to help Siffrin in ISAT, and by connecting to someone who was also suffering from the cycles they were able to connect to them also. (ALSO LOOP??? WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU EAT A STAR??????)

This brings me to my last point. THE PERSONALITY CHANGE. Loop's personality is VERY different from Siffrin's. I have two main theories for them. One, is that Loop suffered what I'll call "Flowey syndrome" AKA: When you've "reseted" or in this case "looped" so much that you stop seeing other people as real people, and that you and the others who aren't bound by the repeats are "the real ones". This creates a false sense of superiority, as whether you like it or not, you're going to treat those around you more poorly. Added with the fact that Loop sees Siff from the start of the cycle as well as the self hate they feel, I can SMELL the amount of RAGE. You're standing at a clone of yoursef who hasn't suffered as much as you have, is living the life you once lived, and it's UNFAIR. Loop witnessed themselves reducing their friends to just mere set pieces despite them caring about them very much, while SIFFRIN (although starting to go down the same path) gets to live what loop DEARLY missed. And the fact that SIFFRIN is the one who got out with their happy ending while their friends will NEVER see Loop as Siffrin, forever robbing their past friendships, is really the final straw that caused the Loop fight. I also seriously doubt that Loop thought Siffrin was "real" as well.  To Loop, they're just a clone to them, they are the original, and Loop is the one that supposedly deserves anything. It's a huge slight to what's fair. However, here's my second, less probable but more interesting theory. Loop not only had the deal with one, but their transformation ALSO changed their personality and soul. Not only are you dealing with all of the above, but you KNOW that you are VERY much not the person you were. It's not a semi wholesome "ah, I've changed so much over the years" type of deal, but a *HORRIFYING* realization that your very being was changed. The chemistry of your soul is forever altered.  You are no longer the person you thought you were. Where there was "happy go lucky siff", there is now "bitter, angry, sarcastic loop". Loop talks about "making a personality specifically designed to annoy you", but what if that was denial? What if "Oh god, I've CHANGED. Something is HORRIBLY wrong with me and I don't know why I'm acting this way and having these thoughts. Instead, let's pretend that I'm wearing a mask of a personality, and therefore my sense of self remains stable!!!! Yippie!!!!" But at some point, the line between the face and the mask blurs, until they become one and the same. Now the question Loop has to deal with post game is this: 

"My entire identity was based in the fact that I'm Siffrin, but the people who know me best know me as Loop and not Siffrin, and this Siffrin continues to be recognized as Siffrin. Then, if I no longer look, act, or think like Siffrin... then who am I? Who is Loop?"

maybe this is my calling to write my first au who knows.

[haveyouseenthisskeleton]

What would push them far enough to kill?

Undertale Sans - Pretty much having really no other choice. Sans is not a killer, he's even one of the most empathetic monsters around. He's against any sort of violence and will always try to talk before anything else. If he has to kill, it's only after being cornered and all his previous attempts went unheard. It's the last solution.

Undertale Papyrus - Unlike what most people think, Papyrus could kill in self-defense or to protect a friend or his family. Very easily, actually, as he has a titanic force that could even knock Undyne's down if he really wanted to. But Papyrus chooses not to use it because his own strength scares him. But that doesn't mean he won't use it if the situation is very urgent and threatening. After all, it's a tactical advantage. No one would expect sweet Papyrus to transform into a warrior in two seconds, which can completely change the issue of a fight. So far, only Flowey is aware of it. It's a secret he intends to keep hidden.

Underswap Sans - Even if he doesn't like that, it happens he has to kill people as a police officer. It's a hard decision to make, with consequences, and being a guy who hates to deal with consequences, Blue will always choose another option if he has the choice. He's quite good at fighting and is often faster than his opponents which helps a lot to disarm someone before they can do more damages.

Underswap Papyrus - He could never. Honey is not a fighter, far from that, and with his anxiety, he could never find the strength to end a life. He's way too empathetic for this, and all sorts of violence makes him sick. Even cornered, he couldn't find the strength to fight back, trying to talk to the last second.

Underfell Sans - He hates that, but he will do it to protect himself or his brother. He killed in the past. He will certainly kill in the future. Red had been hurt too many times to give threatening people a chance because he knows determined people rarely change their mind. Killing before they can is the best he can do. He never kills before someone threatens him or a friend though.

Underfell Papyrus - Underground, he had no limits. Being a target, he didn't have any choice but to kill every person threatening him or his brother, out of fear they make things worse if he let them live another day. A lot of these kills are driven by past traumas of the rare people he trusted and they revealed themselves to be killers in disguise. He promised it would never happen again. On the Surface, he's more reluctant to kill, but he can't help the instincts to kick in once in a while. If he's alone and someone is threatening him, he attacks without remorse.

Horrortale Sans - No, thank you. He's done with all of this. The only reason he could kill is to protect his family, with no hesitation. But most of the time, he's chill. Oak wishes to never kill a human ever again, as it wakes up traumatic memories. He's not the survivor he was Underground anymore, he moved on.

Horrortale Papyrus - He can't kill, not anymore. Willow is deeply traumatized by what he had to do Underground, and the simple sight of blood can send him into a panic attack. He might hurt people in this state, but never to the point of killing them. He refuses to cross that line again. He never wants to hurt someone ever again.

Swapfell Sans - He's a cold-blooded killer. His LV is way too high for him to feel anything anymore when he's taking lives. Since he's still general of the royal guard, he has to kill people and execute some others. That's his job. He doesn't hesitate either to get rid of people that can be a threat to him or his brother. He hates his job, he hates he has to take lives to live a normal life, but what else can he do? His hands are tied.

Swapfell Papyrus - Oh, he can kill when the situation is very desperate and he has no other choice. He's not feeling that much remorse either. Rus grew up thinking murder is a normal way to solve conflicts so... When he can avoid it, he avoids it. If he has no choice, he has no choice. That's life.

Fellswap Gold Sans - He can kill in the blink of an eye. Wine thinks all people against him are possible threats and that it's better to eliminate the threat than wait for it to attack. He doesn't feel any remorse, as he has the higher LV of all skeletons. He's completely disconnected from reality, which makes him so dangerous. To defend himself or his brother, he can do everything. The only reason he's not in prison is because no one managed to arrest him and stay alive longer enough to reach the prison quite honestly.

Fellswap Gold Papyrus - He can defend himself when needed, but he's far from a killer. If he kills someone, it's purely by accident, trying to save himself or his family. He knows how to do it, Wine taught him to survive, but he could never do it willingly, which is mainly the problem and why Wine had to protect him so much Underground. Coffee is just born in the wrong universe.

[punsmaster69]

12/APR/20XX

i think that was my goal.

remember? the one i was mentionin' about twenty nine pages ago? i'd said something like...

"and when i achieve it?"

"...guess i'll finally close this book for good."

so, i'll count that to be my goal.

therapist agrees, so you can't get on me about that.

sharing inner thoughts was never something i'm great at. so much so that you might've forgotten that's what this was for.

can you believe that? s'posed to be a thought journal. daily mental-state evaluation.

ended up talking about my friends instead.

wasn't for me, i suppose.

...after some amount of pages, huh? geez.

[This calls attention to the fact that the book is much thicker than it was when it started. Seems instead of switching to another one, his journal just... gained pages.]

point is.

seems to me like a good place to stop things at.

i'll give you a final update, and we'll call it. alright?

——

breaking the news went as smoothly as if we'd entered the room and broke a vase on the floor instead. (undyne about did just that.)

the second calamity was when mettaton and my bro show up kinda late

holding hands.

turns out my bro is much more decisive than i am.

apparently it was mettaton first, then paps who decided after a few serious dates.

congrats to 'em.

been deflecting questions best i can all day from the announcements, so i was thankful my bro showing up like that took enough of the heat off me n' tori.

i...

can't stop smiling.

well- alright, that's a given.

but i mean this doofy grin i haven't kept up this long in ages.

i'm not even trying for this one.

all this talk about relationships, i think undyne's gotten excited. talking about marriage and all that. alphys has gone beet red.

grillby and the bar gave me a hell of a lot of pats on the back. i'd be bruised if i weren't bones.

if it wasn't that which would've bruised me, it definitely would have been the punch flowey gave me. the comment that earned me it?

"so..."

"this makes me your dad, right?"

he didn't take it well.

despite the petal-haver's apparent hatred... i think he's secretly glad that toriel's happy.

my bro sure took the news well.

granted, since he already thought me and her were dating, he just was happy for the public announcement.

"WAIT."

"DOES THIS MAKE ME AN UNCLE?!?"

"Are we gonna get another sibling??"

"WAIT, are we gonna get a SKELE-sibling?!?"

"whoa, slow down-"

"Frisk, NO??"

"Do not encourage this BONEHEAD to-"

"I think that is quite enough."

tori puts her foot down on that conversation.

living situations shouldn't change much for now, but maybe we'll figure out something else in the future. (staying with my bro. don't panic.)

concerns about my health have slowed down, as i've gotten more used to daily magic usage. noticed way less bad days recently, right? papyrus still insists on teaching me to use attacks better, so i've got that to look forward to. there might still be ups n' downs health-wise, but i'm confident in getting through 'em now.

paps is noticeably still somewhat anxious about it, fidgeting whenever everything is brought up. which is fair, but. still.

i'll get him a therapist like i've been seeing. an in-person one'll work better for him, i think.

not sure what else'll change, really. everything feels mostly the same.

other than (gasp) public handholding. (scandalous.) every time we're beside one another, tori's finding some form of physical contact.

that's different.

...in a good way.

right now, it looks like the aftermath of a wild party. friends knocked out in random spots; dangling half-off the couch or sprawled across the floor. i think frisk and i are the only ones still awake, since they wanted to put blankets on everyone.

"(Psst. Is one blanket enough?)"

they raise a large blanket in gesture with a questioning look.

i speak extra softly so i don't disturb toriel laying at my side, with her head on my shoulder and an arm across my torso; hand met with mine.

"(yep.)"

"(Kk.)"

frisk lays a blanket over me and tori. they stare contemplatively before speaking.

"....."

"Goodnight, Dad."

"...'night, kid."

welp.

guess that's it, huh?

....

i'm happy.

caring is nice.

———★

𝐓𝐇𝐄 𝐄𝐍𝐃

[rainingskeletons]

hooo boy friends, y'all have been incredibly patient.✨ I know I've been very silent and I'm delaying Chapter 5 for so long! As usual I put far too much on my plate at a time and I have to prioritize real life things things. 😔 But! I now have a tiny handful of Patreons and this gives me a very good reason to start prioritizing the comic again!!✨ So, a little update on Chapter 5, I've been editing it a lot from the first draft and am in the sketching stage right now. Since I'll be introducing Flowey and he is a little more "strange" when compaired to his original character, I feel I'm taking a bit more time to get him right!✨ In the meantime I'll be active over the weekends, trying to answer your asks and do some silly doodles and stuff to just hangout.✨✨✨

Thanks for all your support everyone. Your comments and notes are the reason I still have the strength to continue the story! <3 <3 <3

[under-lore]

How much merit did "Star is Chara's theme" have really ?

The music of Undertale is quite renown for a number of things, from its quality to its abundant usage of leitmotifs.

However, there are a few tracks which went under the radar, such as the ones that went unused in the final release of the game.

One of such tracks was "Star".

This particular unused track found itself in an intriguing situation when it became the center of one of Undertale's biggest fully soundtrack-based theories of the early fandom.

The theory suggested that "Star" may have been an unfinished version of what could have been a Chara theme before the idea was eventually scrapped before mounting up to anything concrete.

That theory was based around the way Toby Fox makes his music and the way it correlates to his characters.

For instance, from its rhythm to its instruments and its intensity or even its fairly epic/heroic yet pretty chaotic & impulsive nature, Spear of justice has "Undyne" written all over it it countless ways. It isn't just an Undyne-associated song, the song literally feels like Undyne. It is a musical representation of Undyne and the situation she finds herself in at the moment. And that is how a lot of Toby's music is written.

Even someone who has never heard the song and knows nothing about Undertale, if given a description of each of the main characters and asked of which one was this a theme of, would easily find the right answer.

This particularity comes from a few things, such as the fact that Toby confessed that he actually often makes the music first and then creates the scene around it by taking inspiration from the music.

And so, in the case of character themes, it means that Toby Fox songs end up being filled with hidden details and tones that are relevant to a character's personality, backstory, psyche, etc... And thus makes the songs a lot closer to the characters.

Due to this, a number of fans tried to reverse engineer some of the unused songs using this technique in order to try and figure out what they might have been for, and "Star" was the one that stood out.

The reason why it stood out was because the fans did believe they were able to find such connections between "Star" and the first fallen human.

Some of the ties they proposed between the song and the character were :

The song starts out with a sad/depressing tone similar to grief or regret, seen as possibly alluding to how Chara's plan was a failure (that Flowey came to cruelly regret), and how it caused the kingdom to fall into despair after their death.

In addition, the song has a very strong "echo" effect, which is also often associated with the idea of death as well as that of the consequences of the past coming back to you. Two things that Chara as a character is also associated with.

But it soon begins to obtain an uplifting and hopeful undertone as the song goes on. This can be attributed both to Chara being seen as the future of humans and monsters, but also to their newfound "reincarnation" allowing them a new second chance at existence.

The combinaison of the previous two things makes the song feels somewhat confused before it finds itself a stable path. Which could also be tied to Chara's words at the of genocide. (but that one is a bit more of a stretch)

The song overall just has a very similar vibe to "his theme", Chara's best friend. As Toby likes to have musical similarities between themes of characters that are closely tied together.

The song is just long enough so that it could have fit to play during the chara flashbacks scenes at the end of pacifist if we were to add back the unused few more images that were going to be in there originally. (Side note : this being the case would give point n°3 a very toby-esque double meaning too. With Chara being there both in Asriel's memory and reincarnated)

Some claim that the instruments used in the song can tie it to the Dreemurr family, however my ear is not good enough to tell wether this point is actually valid or just a rumor.

The song starts off weak in intensity, but begins to grow stronger after a click that radically changes the song's overall feeling. (the same one that was proposed to be about their reincarnation.) This was suggested to be a reference to Chara's words about power at the end of the genocide route.

That the name of the song is "Star" in the first place, as there also happens to be a star named "Chara" not all that far from our solar System. On top of that, this particular constellation is known for having a top/northern dog star, and a south/lower dog star. Our Chara star is the lower dog Star, which could be interpreted as a metaphor for being a human yet living in the underground.

...Which isn't that for bad for a track that only lasts like 30 seconds.

So due to these reasons and to the fact that the song clearly seemed unfinished, it quickly became a popular theory that the song was supposed to be related to Chara in some way, with the flashbacks at the end of pacifist being a prime suspect for its intended scrapped use.

However, some time later, this screenshot came along :

The reliability of this screenshot is to be taken with a grain of salt, as there are many rumors that this screenshot may have been fake, and i have not been able to properly identify the source of these rumors. And besides, a private e-mail isn't something that can be easily verfied the existence of.

But all that aside, the e-mail seems to say that before it was scrapped, the usage of 'Star' was actually attempted for the fight against Madjick, a regular enemy from near the end of the game.

Although technically not fully disproving it (as the fact that Toby makes the music first & it not fitting Madjick much or just overall that regular enemies don't usually have such unique themes might let one argue that it was first made for something other than Madjick, then was used for Madjick before being removed.), the way that Toby appears to talk about it seems to imply that there isn't really more to the song than that, and thus that the theory would just be wrong after all.

Since then, the theory was pretty much left as is, slowly fading away in popularity over time.

Was this theory correct ? Whilst we will probably never be sure, the answer is most likely no. I wouldn't bet on it, at least.

However, no matter wether this was all ultimately just a coincidence or not, one thing which remains true is that the music certainly does sound quite close to how one would have expected a Chara version of "his theme" from Toby to sound like.

The same cannot be said for other fanon Chara associated themes, such as "Megalo strike back". While Toby did make this song, this was not the song's intended name and it didn't have anything to do with Undertale.

I find it unfortunate that people went fishing this far on Toby's archives for a song to make fanon Chara content around when Star was right here in the Undertale game files for the taking and would have been a more fitting choice overall.

By default of being an actual Chara song, Star still had everything one would need to build good Toby-like fanon Chara songs around at the very least. But this opportunity went surprisingly under-exploited under Megalo strikes back's shadow.

It doesn't mean there aren't any Chara fanthemes using Star, though.

For instance, Undertale bits & pieces made this Genocide Chara theme using the Star leitmotif among a couple others. I believe it is an example of using Star as an inspiration done well !

[the-great-papyru]

Flowey and Friendship

prior to true pacifist, flowey does not know what friendship is. and how would he?

this is going to be a lot, so actual post under the cut. (figured out how to do that)

let’s start at the beginning. asriel was not known for having a lot of friends. to be blunt, he had one and only one. and that friend is not known for being an exceptional influence. this is not to say that they were horrendous, or cruel, or didn’t care for asriel. but they certainly had an odd way of showing that care.

their end goal was the freedom of monsterkind. and this is an admirable goal. and i’m certain asriel was more than a minor inspiration for this goal. this monster had shown them more love than they’d ever experienced! they felt the need to return the favor.

but enough about chara, they’re a topic for another time. the point is, they tried to help asriel. that was their motive. and what a nice motive! their methods, however… were less than nice.

sound familiar yet?

maybe not. just in case, let me dive deeper into their “methods.” these mostly included stringing asriel along and telling him whatever they thought he needed to hear to follow them in their plan. whether that was to toughen up, an assurance that he’d be with his friend the whole time, or a way to disconnect the souls from the lives he had to take. not to mention omitting information, lying in some form or another…

it was manipulation for a greater good.

exactly what flowey was up to in his early resets. flowey became “friends” with everyone. not even he believes that it was actual friendship. and he is correct.

during the early resets and reloads, however, flowey likely had no idea what he was doing. as far as he knew, friendship was a one-sided effort. a give and take relationship where one gives and another takes. he hadn’t learned it any differently. yes, he cared for chara, of course he cared for chara! and he had taken them in, he did try to help them out… but when it came down to it, they were the one in charge. and the rest was lost to flowey. besides, what was the problem with helping everyone out?

“flowey” wasn’t a product of boredom. he wasn’t a product of curiosity. flowey became who he was because he wanted to reach the best possible ending.

flowey became who he was because he wanted to help people, not because he wanted to hurt them.

and that’s the thing i don’t think he realizes. he never understands that the reason he doesn’t truly have a friend is because he’s working too hard at it. instead he blames it on his lack of a soul. how can he be expected to make friends if he can’t feel love for them?

in fact, this mentality is probably another part of what drove him to his behavior in the first place. before he even started “helping” others, he was confident that he’d never have a true friendship, if he couldn’t even love the people he tried to “befriend.” it was skewing his view from the start. a self-fulfilling prophecy. flowey considered himself part of the outside from the very beginning. he focused all his energy on helping everyone else and none on actually… building a friendship. it’s hard to focus on that when you’re not willing to share anything about yourself. there was a task, flowey needed it completed, simple as that.

flowey also has a lot of distrust and paranoia built up. most players should know by now of the dialogue you get from multiple neutral routes in a row. for just a second, he believes frisk might genuinely want to be friends with him.

and then he immediately shuts the possibility down. now, i think there’s two factors to this.

first of all, they remind him of himself. he’s convinced himself that he’s emotionless, that he can’t feel, so frisk is probably the same. he’s shut himself off from caring. he’s scared that if he believes that they care, he might care too. one of his greatest fears is losing control. if he cares and they lie, he’ll be left powerless. so it’s safer for him to close himself off entirely. he has lost one friend. he refuses to lose another.

second, there’s the certainty in flowey’s mind that he simply cannot reciprocate that caring. why should frisk care about someone who can’t care back? why should anyone? and he hates that feeling of not feeling. he’ll do anything to avoid that. of course he starts killing, of course he starts thinking of people as toys, if he thinks of them as people he has to come to terms with the fact that they are people, that he should care about but can’t. but you don’t have to care about a toy.

in summary, flowey imposes isolation upon himself and refuses to feel.

what about true pacifist, then?

true pacifist is what really give flowey’s arc some closure. because in true pacifist, he opens up a bit. he cares about chara, they’re the one person he’d allow himself to feel for. so it’s fitting that the person he thinks is chara is the one he reveals his identity to. he wouldn’t show anyone else he’s asriel, but chara deserves to know.

and then he shows off for them. not entirely sure why. maybe he feels the need to prove himself to them. prove that he’s not “weak” anymore. that he could kill any number of humans without blinking, if chara wanted him to.

asriel was loyal to a fault, and that loyalty just became greater the more chara faded from a person to an idol. eventually flowey just molded the idea into whatever he thought of it (see post-ruins genocide monologue). they were placed on a pedestal. he didn’t even have to do the placing, monsterkind had that covered already.

chara became a mentality. “kill or be killed.” it’s not some evil mantra. it just means “be strong enough, stop caring enough that you can never be hurt again.” LOVE is a measurement of your ability to inflict pain on others. it’s a measurement of how much you steel your heart against empathy. hp, defense… they both increase when you gain LOVE. you can hurt more. you can get hurt less. and the way to gain it… “kill or be killed.”

the final battle isn’t about defeating some cosmic soul-stealing threat. it’s about helping a lost kid understand that it’s okay to feel.

the souls?

they had nothing to do with it.