Red Hood Characterization
This is really long so I'm putting a cut here, I've been thinking about Jason Todd's character motivations and the question of whether or not his actions are based in a Moral Code (I don't think so, not to say he's without any morality) and I talk about that in more depth here.
I saw someone say on here that Titans: Beast World: Gotham City was some of the best Jason Todd internal writing they'd seen in a while, and I've been a Red Hood fan for 8 years or so now? pretty much since I read comics for the first time, so I went and checked out and I thought it was good! The way the person I saw talking about it as if it was rare and unusual made me wonder though, because as well-written as i thought his stances on crime were, there wasn't really anything in it that went against the way I conceptualize Jason?
This kinda plays into a larger question I've been thinking about for a while with Jason though, which is that, do people think that the killing is part of a fundamental worldview that motivates him a la batman, and that worldview is the reason he does the things he does?? Because 8 years ago i was a middle schooler engaging with fiction on the level that a middle schooler does, so I simply did not put much thought into it beyond "poor guy :(" but ever since I actually started trying to understand consistent characterization, I don't really see Jason as someone who's motivated by a moral code in his actions the way batman or superman is!
tbh my personal read is that he's a very socially-motivated guy, his actions from resurrection to his Joker-Batman ultimatum in utrh always seemed to me like every choice made leading up to his identity reveal was either a. to give him the leverage and skill necessary to pull off his identity reveal successfully, or b. to twist the knife that little bit more when he does let Bruce find out who he is. Like iirc there's a Judd Winick tweet like "yeah tldr he chose Red Hood as his identity because it's the lowest blow he could think of." And I think that's awesome, I think character motivations rooted so deeply in character's relationships and emotions are really fun to read! I also think it's where the stagnation/flatness of his character comes from in certain comics, because if his main motivation is one event in one relationship that passes, and he is not particularly attached to anything in his life or the world by the time that comes to pass, it's a little harder to come up with a direction to go with the character after that, because there isn't much of a direction that aligns with something the character would reasonably want? But I do think solving this by saying "all of the morally-off emotionally driven cruelty he did on his way to spite Batman was actually reflective of his own version of Batman's stance that's exactly the same except he thinks it's GOOD to kill people" isn't ideal. To be fully honest, it seems to me like he never particularly cared one way or the other about killing people to "clean Gotham of crime," he just did everything he could to get the power necessary to pull off his personal plans, and took out any particularly heinous people he encountered along the way (like in Lost Days.) Not to say I think the fact he killed people keeps him up at night anymore than everything else in his life events, I just never really thought he was out there wholeheartedly kneecapping some dude selling weed or random guy robbing a tv store for justice.
Looping wayyy back to my question, Is this (^) contradictory to the way he's written/the overall average perception of the character? Because like I enjoyed his writing in Beast World i have zero significant issue with anything there, I just didn't believe it would be a hot take, like yeah, that is Jason. It's been a while since I've read utrh and lost days, but I don't think my takeaway directly contradicts either of those too bad iirc. Idk all this to say I think Jason killing and being alright with killing is an obvious and objective fact, but i guess i've always seen it as more of a practical tactic than a moral belief, and I think taking the actions made during the lowest points of a character's life where he is obsessively focused on this ONEEEE thing and trying to apply it as a Motivating Stance to everything he's done after that, doesn't really follow logically for me.
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Warning: Rant ahead. Do not read if you wanna avoid me venting about the wider RRverse fandom & their attitude toward the TOA fans.
Seriously. This is a vent post. Stay away if you don't wanna risk getting upset. I just need a place to get it off my chest. It's been stewing in my head for long enough and I usually feel better if I write it down/type it down somewhere. Makes my chest feel less tight.
Stay safe <3
"No one is treating you guys like outcasts!"
"With your annoying POV-"
"Everyone was so OOC-"
"Meg is such a Mary Sue-"
SHUT UP
SHUT UP
SHUT UP
THIS IS WHY I STICK TO THE TOA FANDOM.
THIS IS WHY I BARELY INTERACT WITH THE LARGER PJO FANDOM.
THIS IS WHY I GET ANXIOUS ABOUT SAYING I LIKE TOA ON A DIFFERENT PLATFORM THAN TUMBLR.
BECAUSE. OF. THIS.
Recently, I have left a comment on a Youtube video. All in all, it was basically just me listing off reasons why I liked TOA and - in hindsight - naively going "idk why people don't like it".
Top Ten things said before disaster.
The next day, I got two comments.
One was along the lines of-
"Don't care."
The other was-
"Jasper broke up and Jason died - it's not canon to me!"
...
Excuse me for having an opinion, I guess.
What sucks even more is that when a fellow TOA commented to me, the second guy ALSO responded to them with "yeah but PJO and HOO are still better maybe even MCGAA to"
Like what the fuck. who does this. who has the time????
people who don't have a life, i guess.
And then. and then this same person just Keeps Going when I replied. They said "TOA's an AU" and "It relies too heavily on cameos" and then turns around and says "this would have been better if *proceeds to give a list of cameos* were with Apollo instead of Meg"
like. URGHHHHH.
They. Complain. About. Every. Single. Thing.
Even Tristan McLean going broke. And wishing "something" had been done to "fix" it.
Like fixing something of that caliber would be easy. One of TOA's things is that it deals with Reality - and I get it, some people may not like that, especially for a fantasy series - but come on. You can't expect everything to be fine and dandy 24/7 about a series of GREEK MYTHOLOGY, THE CREATOR OF TRAGEDY.
Then they went on to say they hoped that if the show gets to HOO, they "fix" its ending so TOA doesn't happen.
...BRO HOO ONLY EXISTS FOR TOA TO SHINE. RICK'S FAVORITE CHARACTER TO WRITE IS APOLLO AND THAT'S A PILL YOU NEED TO SWALLOW.
they also went on to say that TOA is "example of a story that overstayed its welcome" and i'm just. GAHHHHHHHH *screams into pillows*
"we got new characters in PJO & HOO-"
Me: *can literally name off 27 new characters from TOA from the top of my head*
Them: You need to respect other people's opinions-!
Me: SAYS THE GUY WHO INVADED MY COMMENT??? WHO LITERALLY CALLED ME ANNOYING??? WHO'S COMPLAINING ABOUT A CHILDREN'S SERIES??? AND REFUSED TO AGREE TO DISAGREE WHEN I GAVE YOU THE OPTION???
Them: There's a reason why people don't like TOA. Can you guess? Because we didn't read the book? Nope i read all 5 and the reason is it's not as good as the others-
Me: bro that's not even a solid REASON-
The condensation on that last one really pissed me off.
What was especially baffling, however, was...
Them: I am pretty sure you have hidden opinions that make you like ToA, like maybe you are LGBTQ or LGBTQ Supporter-
WHAT. DOES. MY. SEXUALITY. HAVE. TO. DO. WITH. THIS.
THAT'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!
and as a matter of fact, what are they even implying here??? it just sounds like they're saying I must only like TOA because of the queer rep and I can tell you that reason is bullshit.
(I love the queer rep dw it's just not the #1 reason why i love TOA)
also here's a full list of the characters they said were 'OOC': Piper, Frank, Leo, Calypso, Hazel, & Reyna.
A few of these, I understand the confusion (but also disagree with) - but FRANK? FRANK ZHANG WAS OOC?
AT THIS POINT THEY'RE JUST LOOKING FOR SOMETHING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT.
(In another person's comment about loving TOA they also went "well there's no Percabeth in it-" OH MY GODS JUST STOP ALREADY.)
It was especially infuriating when I pointed out the hate the TOA fans in the comments experience, they replied with "Nobody's treating you like outcasts!"
TELL THAT TO EVERY TOA FAN WHO'S GOTTEN HATE!
TELL THAT TO ME WHO JUST GOT HATE FOR IT.
just. AJHGSFGH. people. some people.
I want to block them. But youtube has removed that feature (thanks a lot youtube).
I'll stick it out. I am point-blank telling them to drop it. We'll see how that goes.
just...people. Guess you still can't have an opinion, huh?
Jokes on them they merely fueled my stubborn fire. I only love TOA more now. The harder they argue, the tighter I cling.
Anyway. If you've stuck it out this far, thanks for listening. I just really needed to vent. It's been bugging me for a few days and ruining my mood every time I open up youtube.
No response is needed, btw - again, needed a place to vent.
ToA fans, you're the best <3 Love ya <3
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I've found that, when interacting with others (or myself), it's useful to consider the lessons I'd want to teach a growing child.
If a child makes a mistake, I wouldn't want them to feel shame. I wouldn't yell at them, humiliate them, or in any way indicate to them that their mistake is a reflection of their worth or of who they are as a person.
Instead, I'd want them to associate the process with love and joy. If they say something that hurts someone's feelings, or otherwise ostracizes someone in some way, I'd compassionately explain to them. Ideally, they'd walk away knowing why they said / did it in the first place, how to handle similar situations in the future, and would accept the consequences (e.g. if a friend no longer wanted to hang out with them).
While the consequences may sometimes be painful, I'd do my best to instill in them that mistakes are human and natural, and that the process of learning from these mistakes is an opportunity to improve connections with others and express love.
I have a tendency towards excessive guilt. Memories in which I've said / done something ignorant or hurtful are infused with this guilt and shame- but ideally, I'd feel a sense of love and peace, and perhaps happiness, when looking back on them. Because they were moments of growth, moments I learned how to be more compassionate (even if the actual learning came years later).
So I'll put this out into the void:
When you make a mistake, that is not a reflection of you as a person. It is a moment in time, a moment which was informed by your past experiences. Humans are not static labels, or monsters in an RPG game. We are social creatures who live and learn and react and grow and experience and love. Be gentle with yourself and move forward knowing you're doing so in accordance with your values.
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no because i read the first like, four chapters of the outlaws webtoon and was immediately like "haha, no?? why is jay acting like bruce never thought of him as his son? why does this author have it out for b so bad?". i'm glad to know i made the right choice if it just got worse
I could understand the ‘wow, I guess I never really found a family with Bruce if this is just always how it’s going to be with him’ mindset, especially if Bruce was being particularly cruel with him.
[ Batman and Robin #20 (2011) ]
He can be cruel. Exploring Jason’s thought process, how he resolves this in his mind and comes to forgive Bruce again and again is something they could have at least touched on. Instead, they not only did nothing new to move the disagreement forward, but they also muddied it further, in a bad way. If they want to complicate (or worse, attempt to resolve) Jason and Bruce’s decades long conflict, that should be a separate comic entirely.
They could have just had Jason cut Bruce off completely (even if temporarily) with the set-up they had, but they did nothing with it (even though they could have avoided the mess they made if they took this route).
Bruce again does something unforgivable to Jason (but now his friends get fucked over too), only for there to be a half-assed make-up conversation that didn’t really address the real issue, and then there’s no further mention of it. Bruce put the outlaws in a simulation for months without their knowledge, and the conversation Bruce had with Jason later wasn’t even about this. Screw Artemis and Bizarro, I guess. They’re expendable because the core conflict is actually about Jason and Bruce.
I wouldn’t say the bad Brucie moments are too ooc based on how he is in canon. The abuse, and him being big on mass surveillance/never trusting anyone while being the one to repeatedly betray other people’s trust. It’s just all the other characters being so tolerant/accepting of his actions is kinda funny, it’s almost like they’re NPCs lol. But also again why are Bruce’s trust issues which cause a strain on his relationship with Jason a main theme in the outlaws book lmao
Ultimately what this webtoon did was take every irritating plot from Jason’s canon appearances, amplified them tenfold, and mixed in even more unresolved plotholes and horrible mis characterizations.
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