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Episode 104 Transcript: Endings Are Hard, But Then Again, What Isn’t

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello, it's Grey.

C: Hello, it's Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen this show many, many times...

C: And I, someone who only knows the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: Both Asian! For this episode, we do have a very special one, obviously. [C laughs] It’s 5.22: "Swan Song," written by Eric Kripke and Eric Gerwitz, directed by Steven Boyum. I'm surprised it's a Steve Boyum edit. Or director.

C: Yeah, it's usually a Robert Singer situation.

G: Usually, it's fucking Robert. I guess it's fucking Steve this time. Nice one.

C: Steve, who directed "The End" and "The Song Remains the Same." Both pretty good episodes.

G: Yeah. This episode, obviously, is good. [laughs]

C: It's pretty good.

G: It's pretty good. For a long time, I really pushed back against the idea that Supernatural should have ended in Season 5. The pushback comes from the thing that I still do believe, that Supernatural as an experience is the entire show. Supernatural as an experience does have to include Season 9 at the very least, you know?

C: R- Season 9?

G: Yeah, for me, Season 9-

C: The one that made you quit? [G laughs]

G: No, Season 11 is the one that made me quit. Don't lie to the Internet.

C: Wait. I thought, was it- I thought it was- Okay. Yeah. 'Cause I was like, "It was a season where Cas was super miserable." [G: Yeah, Season 11.] But he's super miserable in a lot of seasons. [G: Yeah.] Season 11, he was miserable because of Casifer?

G: Yes. Or like, he wasn't in the season. He was only half in the season because the other half, he's like, in his own brain, imprisoned by Lucifer in his body.

C: Yeah. You made it through Season 7, though.

G: Yeah. But the thing is like, there's like, different kinds of miseries, and I think the Season 11 misery was like, specifically hard-hitting for me. That's why it made me so miserable. [C: Yeah.] Versus like, Season 9, where it was miserable, but like, Cas was like, he believed in himself, [both laugh] and he was like, trying, versus in Season 11 when he was just so depressed and miserable, and I was like, "Well, that sucks! I'm gonna stop watching the show!" That's not true. I watched until Season 12, but I've lost heart. I was just holding on for the bit. [laughs] That's irrelevant. Now, I think I understand the idea of like, "It should have ended in Season 5." Supernatural, the experience, should have gone on, and it did go on, and that's like, the crux of it, that it did go on. But Supernatural, the story that they set out to tell, yeah. This is it. [C: Yeah.] And Sam should have not come back, and this should have been it. It is actually a very good conclusion to many of the things Supernatural was trying to tell. I mean, I'm speaking so much. What are your thoughts, opinions, violent reactions, etc?

C: I really don't have much. I just sat for 42 minutes. And I was like, "Okay. TV." [laughs]

G: Aw, really? [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] I was really into it, I think maybe because of the throwback of it all or something. Yeah, I mean, a lot of the things that charmed me with it are like, the things that when I first watched this, I didn't really think about or consider [C: Right.] or really internalize. And now I'm like, older, and I've had more experiences in life, and it's like, "Wow! It means something different!" Just like "New Partner" by Palace Music from that one Anthropocene Reviewed episode.

C: Yeah. It's a pretty good song.

G: Well, what did you know about this episode before going in?

C: Sam has to drink a bunch of jugs of demon blood so that Lucifer can possess him.

G: Which we don't even see. [laughs] Kind of wild. [C: Yeah.] Like, they really DGAF about this now.

C: Yeah, yeah. Dean drives over to where the final battle is gonna take place to be with Sam because he wuvs him. Sam has flashbacks about toy soldiers and shit in the Impala, which causes him to be able to take back control and jump into the pit with Adam. Before that-

G: Yeah. On SPNblr, they put a Phoebe Bridgers song over it, and they're like, "Wow! It fits perfectly!" but I hate Phoebe Bridgers so like, I don't give a fuck. I just wanted to bring it up because I thought you would maybe care.

C: I think I've probably seen that video. [G: Yeah.] Was it with "I Know the End"?

G: Yes, I think so.

C: Before that, Lucifer explodes Cas with his brain, but Cas comes back and heals Dean, who's bloody and kneeling on the floor, and Dean asks if he's God. Dean promises Sam that he'll go and have a normal life with Lisa, [G: "Go have a normal life!"] and also Cas brings him back soulless, and Chuck smirks and is revealed to be God for real for real. [G laughs]

G: [laughing] I'm laughing so much at my own joke, and it's so not funny. You didn't even laugh.

C: You just said, "Go have a normal life," but with some emphasis on certain words?

G: [laughing] Yeah, well. I think I'm going through something [both laughing] completely unrelated to this episode. Okay, yeah. I mean, that's pretty much the whole episode. Was there anything that you saw, and you were like, "Oh! Didn't know that." or "Oh! That surprised me!"?

C: Um... no. [G: Not really. Okay.] I think I didn't know about the Chuck narration framing device being throughout the episode.

G: Oh, really? That was always something that I really liked about this episode. I quite liked it. I did find at the end that it kind of falls apart, the idea that Chuck is like, writing the book or a book when he starts explaining the themes and motifs to you. [both laugh]

C: Like, "They died for family."

G: "It's for famiwy!" But yeah. [laughs]

C: Like, was it, though? Like, it was, but was it? [G: I don't know.] I mean, I don't really see how Sam, jumping into the pit was for family.

G: I did also think about the fact that he was like, "Oh, the thing about endings is everyone's gonna be pissed at you no matter what, and like, there's always going to be plot holes and stuff." And it's like, this is not like- Like, you can just fix those things, I think. [C laughs]

C: You don't have to do it.

G: It's just so fascinating to be watching this now, knowing how Supernatural will eventually end, [C: Bad.] which is that it's going to be a highly controversial, honestly godawful finale. And it's like, yeah, well, that sucks. This one was good, though, so, end of an era. Honestly, I feel so old is how I feel watching this episode. I'm like, "I've been a Supernatural fan for so long. I have been doing this podcast for what feels like just a blip of my life, but it's also been quite a while!" [C: Yeah.] I don't know. I feel a bit haggy, as people would say. [C laughs] We're one-third of the way. [C: Yes.] Have you thought about that? [C: Yes.] Yes. We've already gone through two universities Zoom rooms. [C: True.] And we'll go through maybe a bit more. Let's see. That's actually why you need to go to grad school.

C: I need to get into grad school so I can have a Zoom Business account.

G: It's not for literally any other reason other than to have a a university account on Zoom. [C: Yeah.]

G: We start the episode. It's "Carry On, My Wayward Son." And I will admit-

C: It's not good.

G: - it does get to me. [C: Oh.] No!

C: I thought you were gonna admit that this "Then" sequence is like, not good in any way.

G: I mean, the "Then" sequence was fine. I don't think it's particularly good or bad. I think it's whatever.

C: I don't think they had any themes or motifs in it. [G laughs]

G: Yeah, exactly. I mean, they were trying to do like, family, I think.

C: It was a summary at best.

G: Which is- "They were trying to do family, I think" is like, the thesis of Supernatural.

C: How was it family? It was just them killing a bunch of things to music.

G: They like, hug, and they're like, "Wow, we're brothers." They don't actually say that. They just hug. The brothers part is implied. [C laughs]

C: The hugging brothers, yeah.

G: Anyway, I do think "Carry On, My Wayward Son" is something. I don't know.

C: Yeah, it's a song that exists. That's what it is.

G: No, I mean, I like that there's a Supernatural song. I do. And I know that I'm speaking to the choir or maybe I'm speaking to the guillotine crowd, [both laugh] but like, I love Supernatural. And it's nice that it has things to it. [both laughing] Which is the bare minimum. The bare minimum of a show-

C: Yeah, okay. Having an unofficial theme song is a way to have the show stick in your mind and imbue some things with significance. Sure, yeah.

G: Yeah. You know, sometimes, you'll meet a Supernatural fan, and you'll have nothing whatsoever in common in thoughts, beliefs, values, etc. [C laughs] But you both are affected by this song in ways inexplicable, so I think that's fine.

C: Yeah. [laughing] Remember that time [G: What?] you said Dean's sex dream had two women in it, so the song should have been "Cherry Pies" instead of "Cherry Pie"? [G laughs] There are two sons in Supernatural. I think the song should be "Carry On, My Wayward Sons." [G screams] And in some ways, there's five brothers in Supernatural, which makes it even more important that it should be "Carry On, My Wayward Sons."

G: [laughing] Yeah, exactly. It should have been- we need to change the rock and roll music genre as a whole. And the two ways we're gonna do is to change "Cherry Pie" to "Cherry Pies" [C: Yeah.] and "Carry On, My Wayward Son" to "Carry On, My Wayward Sons." "Carry On, My Wayward Children," you know? Gender neutral.

C: Yeah. Supernatural doesn't have anybody who's like the first sister, though. [G: Yeah, this is true.] Charlie, maybe?

G: But she's like a sister that Dean never had, so Dean doesn't have her as a sister. [both laughing] I don't know. Why is it that there's no sis- [laughing] What happened to all the sisters in Supernatural? [both laughing]

C: Who knows?

G: Who knows?

C: Jo?

G: Yeah, she died. They all got pushed out by the band Kansas is what happened. [C: Yeah.] The "Then" sequence is whatever. I just like talking about the the song.

C: [laughing] I just remembered how [G: What?] the jokes about Cas murdering the band Kansas before the finale, so that they could form at the planned party in the finale in Heaven?

G: [laughing] Supernatural is kind of a bad show.

C: I'd watch a miniseries slasher spinoff where Cas kills the band Kansas.

G: You know what? I would actually think I'd watch a documentary of what happened in the Season 15 writers room and production team of Supernatural. [C: Yeah.] I think I would be curious, and I would want to watch it. [C: I don't think it's big enough-] Release the tapes, or whatever. Isn't that a thing? Like, people were like, there's a-

C: They were saying that to Jackles about the Destiel confession, yeah.

G: Yeah. So true. Release the #tapes or something. I think it's #ReleaseTheTapes. Also, I can stop making hashtag jokes. They're like, not funny. [C laughs] But you know. We start the episode, as you said. And we continue it, as you said, with a voiceover from Chuck. And he is- this is like, him typing on his computer, and he's writing the show or writing this part of the book. It is always so fascinating to me the idea that like, every episode is a book. I mean, I suppose, whatever. It's like Nancy Drew or something.

C: Yeah. His voiceover is over some grainy footage of like, a car manufacturing plant. He says that there was like, a really famous car that rolled off the line at a plant in Jamesville, and three days later, there was another car that no one gave a fuck about, but it was, in fact, the most important car- no, the most important object in the universe! And this car is the Impala. He says that the first owner was an alcoholic with two ex-wives and spent-

G: - Sal Moriarty, which is an On the Road reference.

C: Ah. Yeah, that's right, that's right, 'cause-

G: I tried to read that book, you know?

C: How was it?

G: I didn't finish it. It was okay. I didn't finish it. Yeah, there was one scene- there's only one thing I remember from that book, which is that Dean Moriarty, he was like, the suave lover boy or whatever. They visited a friend who is so proud that he bagged a hot lady as a girlfriend. [C: Okay.] And so they're like, sitting down, and he's like, bragging about his hot girlfriend, and then Dean is just like, in the corner, like, bored or whatever. And then, as they are about to go, like, the group of friends, he turns to the girlfriend, he points to his watch, and he symbols 3, as in with his hand. And then he comes back later at 3 PM, and they have sex. [laughs] [C: Okay.] That's the only thing I remember. Maybe it's a wonderful book, but you know, I don't know, 'cause I didn't finish it.

C: Yeah. It inspired Supernatural. How good could it be? [G: This is true.] Apparently, on weekends, he would drive around, giving Bibles to the poor, and then after that the car ended up, at Rainbow Motors, which we saw in 4.03. It shows the flashback of John buying her-

G: Buying it, yeah.

C: - and Dean advising him to do so. "That's where the story begins and where it ends."

G: You know, they tried to do this thing where they're like, "Oh, where it begins is where it ends" by like, also putting it in Stull Cemetery in Lawrence, and it's like, what's this corny- Like, it's so funny to me that it's like, "Oh, this is where it begins and where it ends," and by "it" they mean like, the Apocalypse. And it begins in Lawrence, Kansas [laughing] 22 years ago or whatever? I don't know. It's kind of stupid, honestly. But okay, slay.

C: Yeah, I did groan when he said that the Impala was the most important car - no, object - in the universe. Like, yeah, I guess it stopped the Apocalypse. Well, why couldn't you say that toy soldier was the most important object in the universe? There are many things involved in that that were an important thing in the universe.

G: I do think there is like a- I feel like they missed a beat a little bit where they're trying to say that like, it's important because it was love and like, [C: Yeah, and their home.] how, you know, Sam and Dean saved the world because they loved each other, and they saved the world because they loved this car. And you know, and it's like, stuff like that. But the way the framing is like, "Oh, it's the most important. It's where it all began. It's the most important thing. Sam and Dean are the most important people." And it's like, okay, so are they important because of a fundamental importance? Or are they important because they love things and each other? Like, what is it?

C: And also, the little interlude where he's like, "Lucifer doesn't care what car they drive." It kind of came out of nowhere, and I don't think they really brought it home in any way.

G: Actually, I like that line. I would disagree with you. [C: Okay.] What do you mean they didn't bring it home, though? I'm interested in that.

C: I get what they were trying to do. It's like, "Lucifer doesn't love" [laughs] or whatever. [G: Yeah.] But like, I don't know. Whatever. Who cares? [laughs] is what I feel about that. And also, he does in the scene with Michael, I think, so, I don't know about that.

G: You know what? That entire portion, I was thinking, "How the fuck are we- like, Crystal and I, gonna talk about this?" [C: Yeah.] It's such a weird scene, and I have no idea what they were trying to do, really.

C: "Let's not fight, pwease!"

G: "Let's not fwight!"

C: It's like, okay, well, maybe they should negotiate the the stuff where you're starting the Apocalypse if you're gonna be doing the "let's not fight" thing. Is it just he leaves, and you continue ending the world? What are the terms?

G: Yeah. I think what they were trying to do there is that like, Lucifer thinks he knows everything about Sam and Dean, and he does, but like, he doesn't understand what those things mean. So like, he knows that they have this car but like, he doesn't care, and he doesn't consider that this is something they care about and can change the trajectory of their lives forever. So yeah. I think that's what I was trying to do, and I like that. And I think I also like that- I mean, it was revealed to us. But like, the things that make the story of like, the Lego bricks and the toy soldier, like, these are things that we're not privy to in the story. Like, we are privy to it now, but it implies a larger, grander life for Sam and Dean that we are not privy to, and yeah, I think that's the point of it. The existence of their life outside of this story. And I think that's what makes this episode so charming. It's like, yeah, they're like, we are told all of these things, but at the end of the day, there are things that we just won't know or won't understand. And that's pretty cool!

G: We are now in the salvage yard, and they have a heart-to-heart where Dean tells Sam that "Yeah, you can do- like, I'm in with your plan." And Sam asks like, "Okay, so you're gonna let me say yes now?" And Dean says, "No, I'm not gonna let you do anything. You can choose what to do. If it's what you want to do, then it's what you want to do, and I'll back you up."

C: Yeah, which is nice. I did like this line. [G: Yeah.] And he cuts it with a joke where he says, "You're a grown- well, overgrown man," which feels right. [G: Yeah.] I feel like he would need to make a tall joke in order to get through these sentences.

G: Yeah. And this part, it did get to me. Whatever. [C laughs] It always gets to me when they do this like, "You're my little brother!" [laughs] bullshit.

C: They did this four episodes ago. Like, if he just stopped there, it'd be fine. When he kept talking, I was like, "You did this four episodes ago."

G: I think it's because this is the episode where we see it in action. Like, Dean always says this shit. He always says like, "You're my little brother" or whatever. [C laughs] But like, this is the episode where we see that. Like, we see him, I don't know, staying with Sam in there and like, telling him that, like, "I'm here. It's okay."

C: Wait, this speech isn't "You're my little brother." This speech is "I've always treated you like my little brother in a way that denied you autonomy, so I'm gonna stop."

G: Uh, yeah, you're right. So I'm talking about scenes from later on. [laughs]

C: - that are completely unrelated to the thing he's saying right now.

G: No, I think- I think- I don't know. I think there's just something to Dean's character where, okay. So like, ugh, I'm gonna get emo, whatever the fuck. [both laugh] But you know, the concept of Dean as a character who took care of his little brother is, of course, very prominent in the show. I don't know. I think when I was younger, I didn't really understand it, mostly because when I was youngerm I was the youngest in our family, so I didn't have like, a little sibling, and so I always thought of it as like, you know, it's the same deal. Like, I have older siblings. I get it. But I do think it is like, such a different experience to have a person in your life that you think of as someone you take care of, and I think that is something that I have taken for granted in terms of Dean's characterization. Like, I do think it's something. And like, you know, in this scene, he talks about how he thinks it's his job to take care of Sam because Sam's like, not a baby anymore. So that's like, that shouldn't be their relationship anymore. But yeah, I don't know. I think Dean- like, if Sam and Dean, like, Sam and Dean, I don't know. I think the problem with their dynamic is that Dean thinks of himself as Sam's parent, but Sam wants Dean to be his older brother, which, those are like, very different things, right? [C: Yeah.] And I mean, it's difficult for them because they have a complicated childhood. Yeah, I just think, like, I don't know. There's this one poem that I came across a while back, and it's something about how like, this older father talking to his son, and the son- the poem describes his son as like, having a receding hairline, so he's also old now. And he tells his son, like, "Oh, calm down on the bread because they have big portions here. You don't want to get full too fast." And the kid turns to his dad and goes, "Are you really like, telling that to me? Like, I'm like, an adult or whatever. It's such a funny thing to say to an adult. You say that kind of shit to children." And then the poem goes like, "Sometimes, when we're walking and there's a curb, I still like, reach out for your hand." And like, yeah. I feel like that is kind of like Sam and Dean’s dynamic. You know, whatever. Whatever. Whatever. [laughs]

C: You're allowed to have feelings even if I don't.

G: Yeah, that's true. Well, yeah, it gets to me. I don't know. It's not gotten to me before in the past, I think, because I just it wasn't something I could connect with, but yeah.

C: [laughs] You couldn't couldn't with it four episodes ago when he said literally the exact same words?

G: No, I just- no, I just- well yeah, I couldn't, because it wasn't placed in the context of like, what happens later in this episode or at least not so directly. Yeah. I think here's a lot to Dean's insecurity about like, "Oh, I love Sam so much, and I have dedicated so much of my life and my mental energy and everything to taking care of this 'kid.' And to Sam it's like, nothing." But like, I think that is the dynamic of a parent and a child a lot of the time. And so, yeah. I've been thinking about that with Sam and Dean.

C: What is "to Sam, it's like nothing" mean?

G: To Sam, he wants to get out of here. His vision is to be separate from Dean and etc. And I think, you know, the idea of like, "This is not a person who's like, not my responsibility anymore." is something that every parent has to go through eventually, right? But like, I think with Dean, it's difficult, because he's not Sam's parent. He is four years older than Sam, something something child development, something something blah blah blah, [C laughs] but also, I think when it is apparent, I think even when you're older, there is still the idea of like, "This is a person who is supposed to give me guidance even if I am a person on my own, etc etc. My parent is still here to give me guidance." And because Sam and Dean, their relationship didn't transcend to that dynamic because they are not father and son, they're brothers, that's the crux of why their relationship is so complicated and difficult. And I- I feel for it, you know?

C: So you feel like it's Dean thinking himself of himself as Sam's parent that caused all the hurt over Sam wanting to leave?

G: I think it's that he is like, he is conflating those relationship roles, I think, is the reason. Like, he wants a peer, he wants a friend, he wants a brother, but at the end of the day, Sam, their dynamic is so parental, often so parental, that it just- it's difficult for it to work out that way.

C: Okay. Sure. I feel like- [laughs] I mean, in my experience, parents like it when you go to college. [laughs] No, but I guess- I don't know. I feel like, yeah, okay, I think what you mean about the conflating makes sense. He has the feeling responsible for Sam part, and then the brother and friend part of like, "Let's stick togethah forevah," [G: Yeah.] so that's what causes the problem.

G: Yeah, like, he wants to be BFFs with Sam, but also, he thinks of himself as someone who raised the kid. And those are like, difficult concepts to combine together. Yeah.

C: Yeah like, the raising makes him feel like Sam owes him something like, obedience or companionship?

G: Yeah. Yeah. [C: Yeah.] And it's difficult to let go of those dynamics, I suppose. Well yeah, I mean, it does get to me.

C: They had four years to get over it, I think. [laughs]

G: Well, he had two years because the Supernatural timeline is fucked up, but yeah.

C: Right. They may have talked at college for the first two years, or that could have just been a script mistake.

G: I don't know. It's something that I think about because- I mean, whatever. I think I talk about my siblings a lot this show, but I do have like, a younger sibling who's a kid. Like, an 8-year-old.

C: Yeah. Quite a different age difference than Sam and Dean.

G: Of course. But like, I also think about like, the concept of like, you know, being a parent versus being a sibling and like, how we ought to- how do you do that. And like, with Sam and Dean, obviously, as I keep on saying, Dean is just four years older than Sam. And like, I don't know, I was thinking about- Sorry, I'm just rambling. [laughs] [C: No.] Well, I was thinking about way back, we had an episode where there was like, something homophobic that Sam says to Dean, and you went, "Yeah, it sucks that he says this, but this is just how they talk, and I'm assuming Dean started it when they were kids." And I think at the time I was like, "Yeah, you're right." But like, I gave it a little bit of a think, and I'm like, "Wait, Dean's also a kid." [laughs] [C: Yeah?] You know, that's the thing about them. It's like, I think also that's why maybe it's also difficult for Sam to hold Dean accountable. Like, he can't find it in himself to think of Dean as somebody who has caused him hurt or whatever, because it's like, well, Dean was a child, also. And I'm sure that adds even more complexity on how Sam specifically thinks of his situation.

C: Did Dean cause him hurt when they were both children?

G: No, I just mean like, they have, like, a messed up dynamic and I feel like if you have a parent you have a messed up dynamic with, you're able to be like. “Well, they were an adult, and they should have known better than to be a person who tries to be best friends with their kid who they're also raising, and now, I don't know, like, etc etc. They're finding it difficult for me to go to college or whatever." [laughs] But like, with Dean, it's like, Dean was also a kid.

C: I mean, Dean was 22 by that point, but yeah. [laughs]

G: My point is like, the development. [C: Okay.] Like, yeah, he was 22 at the time, but like, [C: The development of the dynamic that led to that.] the dynamic started when they were kids, etc. It's like, when you're an adult parent, you have the benefit of [laughs] not being a kid when those dynamics start.

C: Yeah. Dean asks Sam if this is really what he wants, and Sam says that "I let him out. I've got to put him back in." And Dean goes like, "Okay, that's it, then." So like, it's like, a personal responsibility/guilt thing, I suppose, is how they're establishing it. So then there's the title card, and there's a scene implies that they've bled out a bunch of demons. Bobby asks if Dean's okay, and Dean says, "No." And they look through some newspapers, and there are a few omens around, but the one that stands out to Dean is a [G: Detroit.] temperature drop in Detroit, which is where Lucifer said that Sam was going to say yes in "The End." So then they start driving there. Cas is asleep in the back seat, and he looks adorbs.

G: Yeah, [laughs] Dean says, "He's so cwute!" [both laugh] [C: Yeah.] And he is, so it's fine. And it is fine even if he's not. I just find it so fascinating that like, [laughs] the way they frame this scene was Dean being like, "Aw!" And Sam going, "Okay, loser."

C: "He's dying, Dean."

G: [laughs] "Maybe have some sensitivity to the fact that he's losing his powers, Dean." [both laugh] [C: Yeah.] Kind of true. Kind of real. I think if Sam listened to our podcast, where every single time Cas goes into heat, we're like, "Aww, Cas!" he would be like, "You guys should kill yourselves or something." Sam wouldn't say that. But maybe he would. Maybe he should, even.

C: They're talking about Detroit. Dean has a bad feeling about it because of the predestiny, and he's also worried that Lucifer knows about the rings. [G: Yeah.] And Sam goes like, "Dean, like, serious talk time. You know I'm not gonna come back after I fall into a big hole." And Dean’s like, “Yeah, I know.” And Sam goes, “Okay. So you have to promise me something.” And Dean's like, “Oh, yeah, of course, anything!” [G laughs] And Sam says, “You have to promise not to try to bring me back.” [G laughs]

G: Dean go, "What?"

C: Dean is shocked.

G: He's shocked and upset that Sam said this.

C: Yeah, which I do like. [G: Yeah.] Sam's like, "I'm not coming back," and he's like, "Yeah yeah yeah, of course I know that." And he's like, "And you're not gonna try to bring me back?" And Dean's like, "What. the fuck. is wrong. with you?"

G: [laughs] Exactly.

C: But yeah, I don't know. It's nice that he had all of this like, turmoil and stuff, and also the entire time, he didn't even consider that like, he wouldn't be trying for the rest of his life to bring Sam back or whatever. [G: Yeah.] He was this upset, and he didn't even think it was gonna last that long, or it would last that long but like, the whole time, he'd be trying to make it not. So yeah, Dean's very upset and saying that he didn't sign up for that because Sam's gonna have such a bad time in Hell.

G: Yeah. Which I did- I think, like, I don't know. The thing about Supernatural is kind of like, it kind of really ignores a lot of like, Dean's Hell situation. Like, he did go to Hell for couple of months- or no, forty years. [laughs] I don't know why I said couple months.

C: It was a couple months on Earth. It was forty years in Hell. You weren't wrong.

G: Yeah, yeah. And so like, yeah, I feel like this is like a- not like a callback to it, but like a thing for Dean to consider that I have forgotten also. That like, yeah, Sam is gonna suffer, and Dean is going to have an acute understanding of that suffering.

C: And Sam has an understanding of like, your brother being dead long-term [G: Yeah.] and sort of having to give up on bringing him back. [G: Yeah. Aw.] So yeah, they're both talking from experiencing what the other is about to go through, and that's nice. That's fun. At least Sam had a trial run. He had “Mystery Spot.” Dean's trial run was just the end of Season 2, and that was like, for two days. Yeah, Sam says that it's too risky to try to get him out of the Cage given that Lucifer will also be in there. He says that Dean has to do it, and that what he should do afterwards [both laugh] is find Lisa, [G: Yeah.] "pray to God she's dumb enough to take you in," and then have a normal life where he goes to barbecues and football games.

G: He makes Dean prommy! [C: Yeah, he does.] You know how like, there are people who are like, gay Dean truthers. [C: Uh-huh.] This is the one concession I will make. Like, I understand why you think that with this whole Lisa situation.

C: Huh. 'Cause it feels like he- 'cause the point is that he didn't go there because he really wanted to?

G: Yeah like, he went there because he's trying to live up to Sam's expectation of a normal American life or whatever, and-

C: He also went there of his own volition against Sam's will in 5.17.

G: Oh yeah, he did say, "Whenever I think of a future, blah blah blah, [both laugh] I think of you guys."

C: Yeah, that was all him, baby.

G: Yeah, maybe Dean is bisexual, as I have always previously believed and continue to believe. Sorry, gay Dean truthers.

C: And maybe he's straight as I have always- [G laughs] I don't actually believe that. [G: Yeah.] This Lisa fixation is- I mean, that's just the writers being like, "That is what is easiest for us to do." Also, I'm sure just knowing that Dean loves Lisa was helpful for Sam as a, you know, "I don't have to think that- I mean, I care about his well-being, but I am glad I get to offload this onto somebody." But also, Bobby is like, there.

G: There was Bobby, in fact. And later, Sam does tell Cas to take care of these two or something. [laughs] [C: Uh-huh.] Incredibly funny.

C: Yeah, he was just trying to cover all of his based. Yeah. Such a good scene. Deanlisa and Cobby endgame for the world.

G: [laughing] He was like- Maybe Sam was like, "Yeah, maybe Dean is gay. [C laughing] So like, just in case, I'm gonna tell Cas to take care of him or something."

C: Yeah, yeah. Cover all the based.

G: Yeah. It is so fun to me that Cobby is just a duo this episode! [C: Yeah.] Like, everything that they do, they do together, and they can't- I mean no, they have this conversation in the car with Cas in the backseat. That's the only exception. Cas didn't ride with Bobby. But later on-

C: Yeah, he rides with Bobby to Stull Cemetery, yeah.

G: Yeah, later on, they're together. And then like, when Dean calls Chuck, Bobby and Cas were like, hanging out. And then when Dean is like, "I'm gonna go!" they go from some side of the road towards Dean, and they're together! It's so cute. Cobby is real.

C: Yeah, it is cute. I do feel a bit Rufus-baited, though. I thought he was at least gonna be in the montage at the end just because [G: Yeah, we have Rufus this season.] we have Bobby on the phone multiple times this season, and he goes, "And by the way, I'm on the phone with my best friend Rufus!" so I don't know. It seems like he should have shown up in the montage at the end, but he did not.

G: The scenes are incredibly short. I didn't notice. I'm only feeling it now. We don't really- it makes sense because they're trying to culminate to a long scene, so. [C: Yeah.] They are now like, in the place where Sam is bound to say yes. Is that true? Is Detroit in Chicago?

C: In Detroit. No, I think the transcript is wrong. Detroit is in Michigan.

G: That's so weird. I always thought it was in Chicago too for some reason. Maybe this transcriber is Filipino. Shout-out! They're in there. They're standing in front of the building. And they're like, "Wow, this is it." And the first goodbye is between Sam and Bobby, where Bobby says, “I'll see you around, kid.” [both laugh] And Sam's like, "Okay, well, whatever." [laughs] And Bobby goes, “You fight him tooth and nail, okay? Like, keep swinging. Don't give an inch." And Sam says, “Yes, sir,” and I was like-

C: Fascinating.

G: My first thought honestly was like, "John is more of a father to Sam than Bobby is!" [laughs] [C: For real.] Like, Bobby doesn't deserve to be called the "yes, sir" because that's for his father that he has a terrible relationship with, [C laughing] and Bobby is not his father, and the relationship is bad, so it doesn't count.

C: For fucking real. I also felt this way.

G: [laughs] That's literally not your father.

C: Later, when Lucifer is like, “I'm your real family,” [laughs] I think I also started laughing. [G laughs]

G: He's like, "I'm like a father to you."

C: I don't know. Supernatural will just throw the word "family" around. Like, it means nothing. [laughs] Yeah, Lucifer's more of a fathers to Sam than Bobby.

G: It is actually impressive how much Bobby like, kind of DGAF about Sam. [C laughs] Like, what started out as a joke has become the reality of the situation, and that's his coworker.

C: Yeah, I mean, okay, I guess you could just view him as carrying himself- Like, maybe last episode, he was like, “I'm just respecting Sam's wishes to jump into that big hole. So that's why I'm having this talk with Dean, and I'm like, I do care that he's gonna die [G: Yeah.], but, yeah, I'm gonna put that aside to respect his plan [G: Yeah.] and his competence or whatever," but also, [laughs] like, does he care?

G: I think there is also the aspect of we can view it as he was talking to Dean in that scene. So we're not really supposed to see it as like, Bobby's perspective. We're supposed to see it as Bobby trying to convince Dean, which is of course different, so.

C: Yeah, but I think it says something that he thinks that Dean-

G: This is how Dean is gonna be convinced, yeah.

C: Yeah, that once he realizes that he's just doing this because he's afraid of losing Sam, he'll change his mind. Which I guess he did, so.

G: Yeah. I mean, me defending Bobby and saying that he actually does love Sam as a son is like- You know when you're in a debate team, and they put you in the homophobic side, [both laughing] so you have to fight for homophobia or whatever? That's how I feel defending Bobby. It feels like I'm defending homophobia. I think he doesn't love Sam at all. Well, whatever. [C laughing]

C: I think he does a little bit. I think he just doesn't care that much, or if he cared about Sam, he would care about him more in a "how does this affect Dean?" way before he thinks about how it affects Sam. [G: Yeah.] Which is the whole show also, so.

G: I mean, I think at some point Bobby tells Dean like, "You're my favorite." Or maybe I invented it in my head. Anyway, it's implied in the entirety of the show, [laughs] so we know it.

C: Yeah, he doesn't need to say it for us to know that it's true. [G: Exactly.] Bobby's a little teary as they hug, though. That's something.

G: It's true, it's true. And Sam does his next goodbye to Cas. [C: Ah!} And he goes, Sam goes, "Take care of these guys, okay?" And Cas, very solemnly, with his beautiful frowny face, goes, "That's not possible." [both laughing] Sam was like, a little taken aback. He's like, "Oh." And then he goes, "Humor me." And Cas goes, “Oh, I was supposed to lie. Oh, okay!” [C laughs] And then he puts on his most corny, tired, and played-out smile-

C: Yeah, he twists his mouth just to one side.

G: Yeah. And he goes, "Sure... Like, they'll be fine." [both laugh] And Sam literally tells him to shut the fuck up, which is kind of real of him.

C: Yeah, he's smiling, though. It's a nice moment.

G: It cheered him up, yeah.

C: Yeah. And they didn't even shake hands! Sam held out his hand for a handshake. He wanted a 4.07 callback, but Cas didn't even do it!

G: Cas didn't even grab Sam's hand with both of his hands, which is the most important thing. [C: True.] I do find it fascinating that Cas is like, barely a character this episode. [C: Yeah.] He's not even around. Yeah. And I don't know. I think it is fascinating that we end the show- and I mean, the thing is like, at this point, Cas is just some other guy in the show still. And like, you know, as I've said a million times in the past, later on in the show, he's going to be a lot more of a presence, and he's going to be- like, when he's in an episode, he's like, Mr. B Plot or Mr. A Plot, like, it's the entire episode, versus in Season 4 and 5, where he just shows up for short increments, and it’s quite irregular and stuff. And so I get it. I get that he's not that big of a deal yet this season, so like, he's not gonna be such a huge presence in the finale. I think what I want to say is that I am a little bit impressed that they have him here if that's the case. I don't know. I think I find it fascinating that he has been elevated to Bobby status so quickly. Yeah. That's it, really.

C: It'd be weird if he wasn't here.

G: Why would it be weird?

C: We've just been fairly involved in the whole Apocalypse fight thing.

G: Yeah, and they are- I think with him and Dean, they are trying to do kind of a foil situation with what happens to them at the end. [C: Mm.] Is that true? You know, I don't actually know what foil means.

C: Like, they're like opposites or like, contrasts in-

G: Yeah, okay, well, they are. And you know, Cas got everything that he wanted and he got everything back versus Dean, who lost everything. They were trying to do something with that. And when he was like, “Do you want peace or freedom?” that was something, too. [C: Yeah.] So like, yeah, you're right. There is like, a point, a storytelling point to Cas's presence. Love him! [C: Yeah.] We're gonna go to Season 6, and we're gonna be kind of miserable, but that's gonna be true for the rest of the show. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] And most of the show before, so I don't know.

C: So finally, it's down to Sam and Dean. So he goes over to the jugs of demon blood, and he asks Dean, "You mind not watching this?" And Dean walks away, and we the viewers also don't watch this 'cause it cuts to when he's done. [G: Yeah.] Can you believe in Season 4, Cas was like, “If Sam drinks too much demon blood, he'll become a monster and a killing machine!" and he literally chugs four jugs right now, and like-

G: He's normal, yeah.

C: He's normo. Like, he seems a bit more focused than usual. That's about it.

G: Yeah. I mean, also, like, I think he was just focusing on not vomiting at up, honestly. [C: Yeah, honestly.] What is the digestion timeline of demon blood?

C: Yeah no, I don't think you can- Yeah, how could he have drank that much without having to piss in between?

G: I mean later, when Lucifer's like, “No, I actually know what's happening,” and Sam makes that distressed face, and he's like, “I don't know what you're talking about!” he was actually trying not to vomit. That's why he was making that face. [C: For real.] Four gallons, though. At least. Concerning.

C: Concering. So yeah, Sam says, "Let's go," and Dean go into a building while Cobby are outside watching. So Sam shouts for the demons to come get them. They get taken upstairs where Lucifer is. We got another Chuck voiceover where he talks about Sam and Dean’s history with the Impala. There's a little army man figurine that Sam put in the ashtray. [G: In the back, yeah.] There are Legos that Dean shoved into the vents, and you can still hear them rattle when they turn the heat on in the car. And he says that even when Dean rebuilt the Impala, he made sure all those things were still there. I don't know how that's possible, but okay.

G: I also- I'm not sure how it's possible, but I find the idea endearing.

C: Yeah, maybe he had to go out and buy new Legos to cram in.

G: For real. And a new toy soldier that's not actually the toy soldier Sam used. He just had bad memory as a child.

C: Yeah. And he said that it was the blemishes that made the Impala beautiful. And then he says, "The devil doesn't know or care what kind of car the boys drive."

G: We go to Lucifer, and he does this thing where they're inside a room and it's like, it looks like it's freezing because there's condensation in the window, and then he like- I mean, when he breathes on the thing, there's like, something. And then he draws on the window. What Greek letter is this? It's psi?

C: I should know this.

G: Let's see. "Trident Greek letter." [typing]

C: I don't know if it is a Greek letter, you can like, style a phi-

G: It is. [C: Really? Let me check.] The Greek letter psi, the shape of a trident or pitchfork.

C: Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, you're right.

G: He could just be- Ah! Maybe he's just [both] drawing a pitchfork.

C: Because he's the devil.

G: [laughing] Because he's the fucking devil! [C: Yeah.] I was actually trying to figure out, what does psi mean? What is this? Because I was thinking he could draw the omega symbol so it could be like, the end, you know? But he's not gonna draw the omega symbol, and I feel like I would know if he drew the omega symbol, [laughs] honestly.

C: Yeah, I think people would be talking about this.

G: Yeah. Anyway, he's like, “Oh, yeah, it's cold. Sorry. Most people think I burn hot. It's actually quite the opposite,” which, you know, I think I've heard people talk about this as like, "Wow, so cool." I think it's whatever. [laughs]

C: I think I've heard that in the context of like, "The Cage must have been very, very cold," and I do think it's interesting to think about the psychological impact of just freezing and freezing for 200 years.

G: Yeah. Lucifer, his face is falling apart. He doesn't look- when was the last time we saw him, actually? [C: Um...] Was it really in “Abandon All Hope”?

C: I don't think so. Let me- He was in “Hammer of the Gods.” [laughs]

G: Oh my god, you're right!

C: Remember "Hammer of the Gods"? [both laugh] I try not to.

G: I try also not to. Was he already- did he already have, like, sores on his face at that time? [C: Yeah.] He did?

C: Yeah, I think he had them in "Abandon All Hope," too, [G: Really?] because he was like, "Sam, this isn't my true vessel. So that's why this is happening."

G: Ah, okay. Well, I think maybe they did a little bit more of it this episode or something.

C: Yeah, I think so.

G: Sam immediately is like, "I'm going to say yes." And then Lucifer is like, “Oh, excuse me?” And then Sam closes his eyes and squints a little bit, and then the two demons beside them, they like, explode. [C laughs]

C: By little light effects.

G: Yeah, they explode with light. They don't explode bloody like Cas later. Their head blows up like a bulb.

C: Yeah, but not in any way where [G: - it's cool, yeah.] any parts of it go anywhere. There's just a little light that explodes over their head, [G: Yeah.] and then they fall down intact.

G: Yeah. But yeah, and this person's like, "Damn, okay. You're for real, for real." And Sam says, "Okay, we understand. We just want the deal of the century. I give you a free ride. You keep me safe. You keep Dean safe. You bring back our parents." [C laughs] Hilarious. So fucking true.

C: So, okay, the implication is- Okay. So Lucifer ends the entire world. The earth is empty and burned to a crust, and then it's Sam, Dean, Mary, and John just standing there?

G: They don't end the world. Like, that's not the intention of the fight.

C: True, it'll just- things will- well, but also like, if Lucifer wins, all the demons are gonna come up onto Earth to hang out and presumably kill everybody.

G: Yeah, but like, Lucifer also hates the demons, so like-

C: That's true, that's true. So that's not actually part of his plan. He's going to kill all the demons, as Crowley thinks. [G: Yeah.] So like, what is the aftermath?

G: I have no idea. And I mean, obviously, Sam's bluffing, so it's not like this is something he put a lot of thought into, perhaps. [C: Yeah.] But Lucifer immediately is like, "Okay, can we drop the act? I know that you have the rings." And Sam is like, "Oh, no, I'm gonna frow up!" Like, he looks so distressed, and he puts on his most like, "Oh, no! I'm going to pretend I'm not upset, but I'm so upset it's unreal!" voice, and he goes, "I have no idea what you're talking about!" [both laugh] And I understand that he's like, having the worst day of his life, [C: Yeah.] but yeah, maybe Sam should enter acting school or something. [C: Yeah, he should take a workshop.] Not because he's good, but because specifically because he's bad. Lucifer's like, "No, yeah, I know everything that's happening. It's pretty fun. Like, battle in your head. If you win, then you win. If I win, then I win. Let's do it!" And Sam is like, "Yeah, we don't really have a choice. No matter what, even if he knows, we can't do anything else." So he says yes, and there is a bright light that like, emanates from Lucifer, and then we cut to Bobby and Cas hanging out outside, and they see the light like, bursting out the window, which I thought was pretty cool. And yeah, back in the room, Dean is still there, and Sam is collapsed on the floor. And Dean tries to wake him or something, and then he also opens the portal. And, oh my god, there's a chant. That's what Death was talking about. [C: Yeah.] I thought Death just thought Dean was so stupid.

C: Didn't know how magnets worked. [laughs] Yeah.

G: Yeah. [laughs] But apparently, there's a fucking thing that they need to say. Sorry for insulting literally everyone last episode. [both laugh] Yeah. Dean throws it to the wall, and he does his chant, and then there's a hole in the wall just like the show. The variety show.

C: It's fun that the Cage doesn't actually go into.the ground.

G: Go down, yeah.

C: Like, yeah, like, that hole is completely just through a bunch of walls and then out into the air or some shit.

G: Sam kind of wakes up, and it's like, "Oh, it's Sam!" and he's like, "Oh, I can feel him! Okay, I need to jump now, because it's like, our only chance!" And then he goes to the portal, and he hesitates a little bit, and then he like, smirks. And then, you know, we realize that it's actually Lucifer! He turns around and tells Dean, like, "I'm actually Lucifer!" Then he gets the fucking Horsemen rings, and then he disappears, but for some reason, Dean has the rings later. No, Sam has! [C: No, Sam has.] He gets it from his pocket. You're right. And by "you're right," I mean me. [C laughs] Lucifer tells Dean, "I told you it was always gonna happen in Detroit, and it did." That is a fun thing. Lucifer disappears, and Dean's there. And yeah, Lucifer spares Dean, which he makes a point of mentioning to Sam later.

C: Right. We're over to Sam and Lucifer, and they're in like, some dark building, and there's some demons. They're standing in a circle. And Lucifer has a little monologue time or a dialogue time where he's looking in a mirror, and he's talking to Sam, but he also allows Sam to communicate. Yeah, so there's a mirror, and it's kind of broken, and in the mirror, it's Sam with his dialogue and expressions and things, and then, when we cut to the non-mirror view, then that's Lucifer, yeah.

G: Yeah. What do you think of this scene? I thought it was- I mean, obviously they had to do something to get Sam and Lucifer to talk. [C: Yeah.] [laughs] So we take what we can get, is how I feel about this scene. [laughs]

C: Yeah, I think it's fine. [G: Yeah.] Yeah, I don't know what else they would have done.

G: Yeah, that's how I feel too. I think it's a little bit corny, but like, whatever. It's what they ought to do.

C: Yeah. What's your assessment of Jared Padalecki's acting as Lucifer abilities?

G: I think it's fine. [C: He is fine.] I think in the Stull Cemetery scene, it's great. I think in these scenes, it's a little bit less good, but it could also just be that I have seen the Stull Cemetery scene so many times, so like, I just know- you know, I'm just more familiar with it or something.

C: Which part of the Stull Cemetery scene?

G: Like, the entire scene.

C: But like, including the conversation with Michael at the beginning?

G: Yeah. No, no, actually, the conversation with Michael was kind of stupid. I think I didn't really think about Lucifer's acting at that scene because all I could think of was like, "Wow! This conversation is so stupid!"

C: Yeah, you're like, "Look at these two fuckass guys in the middle of fuckass nowhere, [G laughs] and they're in the most fuckass guy outfits ever." [G laughs]

G: Yeah. The thing about it is like, I think they were trying to do like, "An apocalypse just looks like a normal day" or whatever. [C: Yeah, the mundanity of whatever.] The mundanity of it all. And it kind of works. It also is just kind of funny. [both laugh]

C: Yeah, like, they are so powerful, but it was just a dude running at a dude, and then the other dude running at a hole. [both laugh]

G: I think it's not the mundanity of the what it looks like, actually. I think it's just that their heart is not even into it. [C laughs]

C: Yeah, I don't think Jake Abel could actually convey the like, magnitude or gravity of like, having Michael in him.

G: And then also just like, the whole like, "Oh, I don't really want to do this, [C laughing] but I have to." And it's like, "Noo, but we have to!"

C: "I have to because of my daddy."

G: "I also don't want to do this, and you don't have to do it." And you know, it's like, you're going to fucking destroy the earth, and you don't even give a fuck. Like, your heart's not even into it.

C: Yeah. You've been doing a lot of stuff to lead up to this point, Lucifer. [G: Yeah.] Like, if you didn't want to do the fight, you could have also just not done the rest of it. [laughs]

G: Like, you know, like, I think so much of it is they're just dragging their feet. They're like, "Ugh, fine! We have to fight. Whatever." And it's like, you know. [laughs] It's like Staged Season 3? [both laugh] Should we mention that? But like, in Staged Season 3, how like, the entire show is about how they don't want to do the show anymore. That's what like, this Michael and Lucifer conversation sounds like.

C: There's a scene. Lucifer's thing is that he smirks, and Sam's thing is that he's upset. So he tells Sam that he's not the bad guy here, and Sam's like, "I'm gonna fucking kill you!" And Lucifer's like, "Who are you actually angry with? Me? Or yourself?" [laughing]

G: They're always trying to do this shit. [laughs] Like, what is this bullshit? "Are you actually mad at me?"

C: I feel like he's angry at Lucifer because of how he killed a bunch of people. [laughs] That's how I feel. [G laughs]

G: So real. "Are you mad at me, or are you mad at yourself because you can't stop me?" Like, I'm mad at you. [laughing] Like, what are you talking about?

C: "Dean, who really started the Apocalypse? Sam, who was completely led astray, or you, who didn't stop him?" [G laughs] [G: So true!] Supernatural said, "Inaction is action," and that part is true. Thank you, Supernatural, for these valuable life lessons. Yeah, also, Lucifer makes a Star Wars reference where he calls Sam "young Skywalker." And I don't know. It's whatever. Many people have said that it's annoying how much demons and angels reference pop culture throughout the rest of the show, and it fucking is. Like, why did you decide all of them talk like Dean Winchester?

G: I mean, it's the reason why Cas stands out, obviously, but also like, I thought what you were gonna say is that like, Supernatural is inspired by [both] Star Wars.

C: That's true. He did say that.

G: [laughing] Did you say "Star War"? Kind of true. Kind of real.

C: No. I think I said Star Wars. But I was about to say a sentence that had "Star War" in it, so maybe you just sensed that.

G: Yeah, what was the sentence?

C: "I've only watched like, five minutes of a Star War, and that's my entire experience with that franchise." [G: Yeah.] So I can't tell how much inspo was actually taken. I'm a little bit more okay with Lucifer making pop culture references because I feel like his thing is that he's like, just childish and annoying in like, a very mundane way. Like, I feel like the pitchfork on the condensed glass was also part of that. Yeah, he's doing a bunch of horrible things to people, and he doesn't really care, 'cause he's just having like, a very fun kids' show time in his head about it, yeah.

G: Childish understanding. So you think that's like, negative or positive? I missed-

C: No, I think that's an interesting way to do it. [G: Ah, okay.] That's why I'm more okay with her making references to like, pop culture, especially like, [G: Yeah.] pop culture that's [laughs] not very deep or whatever.

G: You know, later in Supernatural, at some point, that's how he tries to get Jack on his side. Like, he tells him, "We can go to the stars, like in Star Wars," and then he does like, a lightsaber motion.

C: Okay, that's a little bit annoying, honestly. [laughs] I'm imagining it, and it seems annoying.

G: No, I think it's Jack who brings it up. He's like, "Wait. Like in Star Wars?" [both laughing] And he's real for that. [C: Aw, yeah.] If you tell me to go to the US, I'll be like, "Wait. Just like in Supernatural?" and I'd go.

C: Yeah. You would want to go to a place that was like in Supernatural? [G laughs]

G: I just- I'm interested in the culture. You know how people are like, "I want to go to India because like-"

C: By people, you mean a very specific Robert Sean Leonard? [both laugh]

G: Does Robert Sean Leonard- what did he say? I'm gonna look up ideas for that. I always thought that was hilarious. But he was like, "Yeah, I want to go to India. I've been recently interested in the culture."

C: [laughs] "I've been really interested in the culture recently."

G: Yeah. And that's how I feel about the United States. [C: Yeah.] I'm really interested in the culture, and I don't want to do that city shit. I want to go to the fucking Wisconsins of the world.

C: [laughs] Yeah. I think they have good cheeses in Wisconsin.

G: Oh, he says, "I've been reading up a lot about it. It seems interesting." [C screams]

C: You know, it's more than the writers of "Hammer of the Gods" ever thought to do. [both laughing]

G: Yeah. I don't think any writer from "Hammer of the Gods" ever opened up a book about India.

C: But yeah, but I guess apparently Sam is meant to be just angry at himself or whatever. Which is fine.

C: I do think that it is fascinating- like, how they conclude this scene. Okay, let's go through the scene.

C: Okay, so the rest of the scene, he's been waiting for Sam a long time, and he tells Sam that he has to admit that he can feel exhilaration while he's being possessed because the two of them were made for each other. And he says, like, Sam always felt odd and out of place in his family. It's just 'cause he's gay, man.

G: Yeah, just like Luke Skywalker. No, Luke Skywalker is like, an orphan, I think. [laughs]

C: Well, he's also gay. I thought you were just talking about the gay part.

G: Yeah, his Chanel boots and everything.

C: He says, "Why shouldn't you have? They were foster care at best. I'm your real family." And Sam goes, "No! That's not true!"

G: "I'm your reaw famiwy." [both laugh] Yeah, I mean, I feel the thing is like, with Sam and Lucifer, it could be interesting, this whole thing, whatever. It's also just not handled well at all.

C: If they talked more before this.

G: Yeah. Like, they don't do much with it, and etc. And that's a bummer, because it's a theme that they keep on trying to harken back to like in the future. They will keep on doing this shit where Lucifer is like, "No, you're secretly grateful for me," or like, "No, you feel secretly connected to me" or whatever. And as the audience, you're supposed to think, "Is that true?" or something. I don't know. I didn't really think much of it until, you know, people started talking about it. So I don't know. Maybe I will think it in the future.

C: And he says that, "All those times you ran away, you weren't running from them. You were running towards me.” That's kind of a fun line.

G: Horrible!

C: No? What? [G: I mean, it's horrible-] It's horrible feelings-wise, which makes it a good line. [G: Yeah.] And then he says, “But I'll be good. I spared Dean. I'll bring your parents back. I want you to be happy.” And yeah, I think he does do well with the creep factor in this particular exchange. I don't know. The Sam and Lucifer relationship will continue throughout, and there's like, a rape element that becomes more and more explicit throughout the show as well, right? [G: Yeah.] Yeah. And I think that is a natural follow-up from all of this like, "I know what you want, admit it, blah blah blah." [G: Yeah.] Yeah, and also just the whole possession being sexual assault thing that they've established since Season 1 or 2. I don't know. I feel like we have all these scenes where it's like, "Sam, like, you know, deep down inside, there's something wrong with you, and like, you belong with Lucifer and demonkind and all that stuff." And I think the only place where we actually saw that in a way that felt like, Sam-driven instead of other people saying stuff and you're just supposed to go like, "That is how he really feels!" is “When the Levee Breaks.” And I don't- was that- He talks about feeling wrong the whole time when he was a kid, but I feel like the element of like, "And you feel right and whole with Lucifer, with demon blood," I don't think that was really-

G: Explored, yeah.

C: - explored in 4.21, and I feel like it needed to be in order for me to believe that part of Sam feels that Lucifer is his weal famiwy.

G: Yeah. And I think I think an interesting thing that Lucifer does is he- it's raining so hard, so I'm probably gonna have a hard time ending this part. [C: Aw, horrid.] But like, there's something interesting Lucifer does is he starts with the big things, and then he gets it smaller and smaller and smaller until it's true, and then he's like, "Ah, since that's true, the entire thing is true. Oh, you feel you were running towards me, and like, I make you whole, and I'm actually your true family, etc." And then, like, Sam says, “I don't want anything from you.” And then Lucifer is like, "Really? Not even a little bit?" And then later, when Sam kills all of the demons who are in his life, we are, I think, to believe that Sam feels kind of good about it. [C: Yeah.] And then, so now, Lucifer has established that this is something Sam did like, or did enjoy, and then now, it gets into Sam's head that like, "Wait. So all are all of those bigger things true?" when those things are like, not related, you know? [C: Right.] But because Lucifer connects them, that's like, where the whole manipulation thing comes in. I think it's like, really interesting, honestly. Like, I really think it's really interesting. Like, the way this conversation plays out where he he just goes from big thing to small thing and how like, that manifests into Sam- I don't know. It's a complicated- I think because this is one of the things that's Supernatural actually does deal with with complexity, I think for ways that I do not agree with, for reasons I do not agree with, but they do deal with it with some complexity. Like, the whole Lucifer and Sam situation. And so it is something that I feel like an extra something of care when talking about. Because like, a lot of the time, a lot of the other dynamics in Supernatural are pretty straightforward. [C: Right.] Versus this one where the things that Lucifer is doing are like, I think actual things that actual people in the world do or experience, and so it feels a lot more difficult to talk about. You know what I mean? [C: Yeah.] Yeah. So I don't know. I think I have kind of shared this kind of sentiment in the past. But how the Lucifer and Sam relationship plays out like in Season 7 in the visions that Sam has of Lucifer, and also in Season 13, those conversations are not really things I am incredibly excited to do [laughs] just because I feel like this is something that does need a lot more complexity of thought about things that are sensitive topics.

C: Right. He also describes the feeling that Sam feels as exhilaration [G: Yeah.], which I think is a good choice for manipulation because, like, all of exhilaration is like, you know, like, [G: Nervousness.] high heartbeat, nervousness, and it's very easy to say that someone's upset- [G: Mistake-] to say that it's exhilaration. [G: Yeah. Yeah.] And especially after killing a bunch of people that you kinda are angry at, that is probably something that you could think of yourself as feeling.

G: Yeah. I mean, Supernatural, honestly, yeah, they do do this. They provide Lucifer and Sam a interesting dynamic. I just don't think they like- just because Sam's characterization is always on the like, [laughs] like, they're always doing a terrible job at it, you know? And so I just- I don't know. I think I feel a little bit more dubious about what Supernatural is trying to actually tell us with scenes like this, just because historically, they have had- they have not had a good rapport with Sam's character. And that that is a little bit frustrating to me. It's a lot frustrating, honestly.

C: Yeah. So Sam says, "I don't want anything from you." And Lucifer goes, "Really? Not even a little payback?" And all the demons who are there, Sam starts to recognize them as people who have been throughout his life. There's like, an elementary school teacher. There's [G: Some guy.] his friend Doug, his prom date Rachel.

G: And it is kind of wild to me that, like, Rachel is in a gown. Like, everyone's-

C: Yeah, in a white gown.

G: [laughing] Rachel is in a white gown. You're in prom? A white gown? [C laughs]

C: Yeah, wait, is this meant to be her the prom outfit that she was in?

G: I think that is supposed to be the implication, that it's like a prom outfit. I think it's still stupid. I don't think that should be her outfit now as a demon who's walking around. But yeah, I think the implication is that is her prom outfit, in which case, terrible prom outfit. A white dress? I didn't go to prom. So maybe that's actually a wonderful dress.

C: I'm trying to remember what other people who went to prom have worn. I think some people do wear white. Yeah, he says, "Sam Winchester, this is your life," and that Azazel's gang has just been here the whole time manipulating him the whole time. "I know how you feel about them. Me too. What do you say you and I blow off a little steam?" Okay, wait, so he hates them because he just hates demons in general?

G: Yeah? No, no, no, I think it's because, you know, they're like, manipulating him and stuff.

C: No, I mean, Lucifer hates them. Like, when he says, "Me too."

G: Ah. Yeah, I suppose so. I think he does.

C: Okay, yeah. 'Cause I feel like he was maybe trying to frame it in like a "How dare they manipulate you since you were young. We hate them for the same reason."

G: "I'm the only one who can manipulate you!" [laughs]

C: Exactly, "Even though I told Azazel to go up and manipulate you!" I think he just hates them because he hates demons, but I think that he is trying to frame it to Sam like, "And because I want you to be happy and I'm trying to protect you or whatever, don't think too hard about why they were following you in the first place."

G: Dean, Cas, and Bobby are outside a like, TV store or whatever, and they're watching the television, just like, in Tian Mi Mi, or the movie Comrades: Almost Lovers, a beautiful movie. Go watch it. It's featuring Maggie Cheung, the most beautiful woman of all time. Cas is like, "Yeah, we're fucked. I don't know what to tell you." [both laugh] Dean is like, "What are we gonna do?" And he's like, "Let's just drink a fuckton and die."

C: Wait, [laughing] you missed when Cas says, "It's starting," and Dean says, "Yeah, you think, genius?" and [both] Cas goes, "You don't have to be mean!" [both laughing]

G: Yeah, he like, turns around a bit. He like, he moves his body away from Dean, he moves his head away.

C: [laughing] Yeah, it's so cute!

G: "You don't have to be mean!" So true. [C: It's so fun! Yeah.] After his alcohol comment line, Dean says, "Okay, Bukowski." And I think because of this this line, I tried to read a Charles Bukowski book. [C: Wow!] Yeah, I didn't make it. I don't think it's for me. [laughs]

C: I haven't read any Bukowski, so maybe it's for me, or maybe it's not for me.

G: Yeah, I think I don't like books that are... misogynistic. [both laughing] I mean, I don't even remember which Bukowski-

C: What a weirdo! You don't like books that are misogynistic?

G: No, but like, I feel like there are limits. Because, for example, I read a lot of Kurt Vonnegut, [C: Yes, I was about to bring that up.] and I think Kurt Vonnegut has a lot of misogyny in his books. I think because with Kurt Vonnegut, if you read his books one at a time, I think there is a- it becomes more swallowable. It's more palatable. Like, you can go like, "Well, that sucks that this is how women are written," but you can still turn the page, right? I think there are other authors where that's quite impossible to do. And I'm not sure if Bukowski is one of them, but there was a time in my life where every time I read a misogynist, I was like, "Let's not do this. I don't want to do this." Yeah. And also like, with Kurt Vonnegut, I think the reason why I have a very, very, very, very strong aversion to his other books other than the ones I read is because I just read the ones I read in sequence, so like, you know, all the misogyny is like- it's like, so obvious the patterns of it. So yeah.

C: I just skimmed a Charles Bukowski poem, and it was decent. So maybe. It also felt a little misogynistic, though. [laughs] But yeah, I don't know if Dean was referring to his books or his short stories or his poetry.

G: I mean, what are the- I think we we should have started doing a book recommendations in Supernatural, like, let's just keep a list. I think that would be a fun thing to do. Books mentioned in Supernatural. Books that are referenced in Supernatural. And for me, the number one is, of course, the Vonneguts, just because I am actually a fan. And then, I don't know. At some point Dean talks about Aesop, and Sam’s like, “Wow, you're a genius!” [laughing]

C: Yeah, Dean's talking about like, The Odyssey, and Sam's like, "Oh my god, what?"

G: At some point, someone calls him a beach read, and he goes, "Beach read? Lady, I'm Tolstoy," but that is also a thing that he says.

C: Oh yeah, I remember that. I'm incredibly annoyed by it.

G: Yeah. I just really hate when Sam and Dean say "lady" as like, a replacement for a name. Like, I think that's incredibly rude. And also, if anyone else says it, I also don't like it. [laughs] It's not just Sam and Dean. [both laugh]

C: Yeah, they should replace it with "ma'am." That would be fun.

G: I liked it when Sylvia Plath says it in one of her poems that starts, "Lady, your room is lousy with flowers," but that's my only exception, just like Paramore. Anyway, Dean calls Cas a slur. [laughs] [C screams] I asked prior to recording, I asked Crystal what the status of "sissy" as a slur is. I think it is a slur.

C: I said that I don't really think it is, but I think-

G: Different environments, different communities, yeah.

C: Yeah, I also- I don't know. I feel like the word slur, I don't always know what it means, because I feel like people use the word slur to mean different things, but yeah.

G: Yeah. Going to do linguistics blah blah blah in this one. But I don't know. I mean, obviously, the way it is used here is derogatory. [C: Yes.] And okay, so the line is, "You listen to me, you junkless sissy. We are not giving up." I think the combination of those words, "junkless" [C: Yes.] is like, obviously, it's trying to do something with regards to like, "You're unmasculine." [C: Mm-hm.] Yeah, I just- I don't know. Two episodes ago, we talk about how they say "fag" in Supernatural, but it's all obviously not used as a slur in the show. [C: Yes.] Like, the author maybe was like, "Haha!" Tongue-in-cheek, "Hehehe, we said it." But like, in the context of the show, if this was just a conversation that happened in front of me, I'd be like, "Yeah, that's not a slut." But here, like, it's so very obviously said with vitriol.

C: Derision, yeah.

G: Yeah. So, horrible! It did perk me up. I was like, "Oh, okay." [laughs] I think "perk me up" is not the word. [both laugh]

C: Yeah, I don't think it made your dick hard.

G: No, you know, like, my head was down. It rose up, so yeah. [laughs] Did you say "it made your dick hard"?

C: Yeah. [laughs] It perked you up. It made your dick hard.

G: [laughs] Is that what "perk you up" means?

C: It can mean "cheered up," but I think sometimes people also mean arousal when they talk about it. But yeah, I think "sissy" is often a term applied to gay men and trans women, and I think that the "junkless" aspect of it like, definitely touches on the latter some more.

G: Yeah. And again, I don't know. No, I mean, like, because of the way we talk about "fag" for example, it's like, it is a slur, but like, you know, it's used lovingly in many communities. And like, yeah, I don't know. Maybe that's true for this also, but doesn't make it not a slur, you know?

C: Yeah, yeah, I've heard some people self-identify using "sissy."

G: Yeah. Anyway, all of that. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] I was just surprised. And this is like, this episode was in 2010, so I think we also need to keep that context in mind, maybe? I don't know.

C: Maybe? I don't know what was acceptable to say.

G: I don't know the etymology of etc, yeah.

C: Yeah. I'm gonna check if this is the first time this word was used in Supernatural. Dean said it in 2.11.

G: Really? How?

G: He uses it as an adjective. He says that old school haunted houses have "fog, secret passageways, and sissy British accents." [G: Interesting.] [laughs] Interesting, yeah. I can see why that would pass us by, though. Like, I feel like it's not used as vitriolically as it is here.

G: Yeah. Well, I mean, [laughs] I think everything is a slut if you say it harshly enough. But also, that's not true. But like, this one. It's true for this one.

C: I think this one, because it has a history of being used to mock queer people.

G: Yeah. So Dean asks Bobby like, "Bobby, do you have any ideas?" And Bobby just goes, "Nope. We're going to fucking die!" And then we go back to Lucifer and Sam, and now there's like, multiple dead bodies on the floor.

C: Yeah, they really focus on Rachel because of the red blood stain on the white dress.

G: The red dress, yeah. And it's like, in the middle of her torso, too, and I kind of was like, "Is it in the lower abdomen, just like in every other other woman in Supernatural?" But I don't think it was. I think it was like, higher up in the torso. But yeah, Lucifer asked Sam, like, "Are you having fun yet?" And I think Sam looks guiltily, or something. Anyway, so we have another Chuck voiceover. And he says, like, "In between jobs, Sam and Dean would sometimes get a day, sometimes a week if they're lucky, and they would have just like, you know, free time. And they would use that time to make some money." And he says, like, "Sam used to insist on honest work, but now he hustles pool like his brother."

C: What was the honest work that he did for a day?

G: What jobs was Sam doing? I mean, you can like, do construction work for a day, I think.

C: Yeah, I think factories and shit sometimes will just hire people.

G: Factories, really?

C: Maybe? I don't know. That sounds right, but I don't know.

G: I don't think that's right, yeah. I think you need a rigorous health exam for that.

C: But construction work, you don't need to?

G: I don't know. I mean, I'm Filipino. I don't know about American life. But like, yeah. I mean, you can just show up to a house and be like, "I'm going to build you a cabinet," [laughs] and then you do it. I don't know. "I'm gonna fix your plumbing or something." [laughs]

C: Huh, yeah, perhaps. Maybe Sam was a scab. [G: Yeah, for real.] Maybe every single time he insisted on honest work, it was 'cause-

G: [laughing] It was completely dishonest, yeah. I mean, I think you would need- I think here, the requirements for any job, but also factory job specifically, it's like, you need a police clearance, and you need all of the tax bullshit, and then you need a health examination, including an X-ray, because they're checking that you don't have tuberculosis. [C: Mm.] So yeah, I don't think he can go in for that unless he has those ready. But then again, it's like, one day, come on? How's he even gonna get paid? Is it at the end of the day pay?

C: Cash, I guess?

G: Yeah, but they usually do that at like, the 15th and the 30th, I think.

C: Well, if it's a job position where everyone's expected to only be there for a day.

G: Are you sure that factory work you can do for a day?

C: I don't know if this is true. [G: I find it highly dubious.] I don't think that it's true.

G: What other jobs does Sam do? What is his honest work?

C: I don't know. Did he go around knocking on doors, asking if they wanted their lawn mowed? [both laugh]

G: "Can I mow your lawn?" What if he had a sickle? Maybe he was like, one of those guys who was like, "You don't actually need a lawnmower. You need a sickle."

C: I'm going on the website Labor Works USA, and they have partnerships with various companies that offer same day pay [G: Oh, that's cool!] and temporary work. Yeah. And the industries that they have listed are assembly and manufacturing, which does imply factory work, and then construction and food service - food service makes sense. Like, if someone needs like, an extra hand for catering or something.

G: Yeah, yeah. Oh my god, maybe Sam is a caterer!

C: Yeah, maybe so. Landscaping, machine operations, moving and package handling, packaging, site cleaning and waste removal, warehouse and distribution, and housekeeping and janitorial services. I do think you have to apply to join this like, organization, though, so they probably do vet you at some point. But maybe Sam did join, at some point, [laughs] an org that has partnerships with various temp jobs. Who knows? Yeah. Maybe if you stand outside a restaurant during like, rush hour, you can be like, "Can I come in for a quick shift?"

G: I don't think that's true. I don't think that's true.

C: I'm sure there's like, a lot of restaurants that will just- I'm pretty sure there are restaurants that like, will- if it's just not a very formal system.

G: You work for tips kind of thing? [C: Yeah.] Yeah, okay, I see that.

C: But yeah, I don't know. Anyway who has experience getting one-day jobs, let us know.

G: Maybe he was doing open mics. [C laughs] So true. Go, Sam.

C: Yeah. That's an honest days' work. Yeah, no, like, Dean was hustling pool, and Sam was doing an open mic.

G: In the same bar! [laughs] They were doing it in the same place. Yeah, Chuck says, "They drove a hundred miles for an Ozzie show, two days for a Jayhawks game." I did find these ones very charming. I found them very charming. I think it's so charming. I don't know. What is the Jayhawks?

C: I'm looking it up, and I'm seeing a band, but they said "game"? Oh, it's a Kansas... basketball? Oh, all of the teams from the University of Kansas are called Jayhawks, so it could be any sport.

G: Oh, yeah, that's fun! So they're going back to Kansas. [C: Yeah.] That's so cool! That's pretty cute. Love that.

C: That is cute that they developed some loyalty to the University of Kansas.

G: Yeah. And here I was asking what NBA team Dean supports or whatever, and he has always been a collegiate basketball guy.

C: Oh, and they're located in Lawrence, Kansas, too. So yeah.

G: "When it was clear, they'd park her in the middle of nowhere, sit on the boot, and watch the stars for hours without saying a word. It never occurred to them that sure, maybe they never really had a roof and four walls, but they were never, in fact, homeless." [C laughs] And Chuck's like, "That's really good!" and I'm like, "I don't know, man." [laughs]

C: Yeah, I think the point is that they wrote that, and they were like, "This is kind of bad." And they were like, "Let's just have Chuck lampshade that it's bad." [G laughs]

G: Yeah, anyway, I think this is the first time where we see Chuck actually typing this shit. He's actually quite jolly in disposition, but his phone rings, and he picks it up, and like, he answers it by going, "Mistress Magda?" Yeah, but it's not Mistress Magda. It's Dean. And they like linger on this joke and won't let it go.

C: For so long! [G: Yeah.] Dean just saw Sam like, get possessed by Lucifer and then disappear. [G laughs] And Bobby and Cas have both told him that the world is gonna end.

G: And Dean's like, "Okay, so what's that about?"

C: "Okay. But what's Chuck's relationship status?" It's 'cause he knows that Sam and Chuck were sorta involved, [G: Yeah.] and he's sort of just trying to suss out how badly Chuck is gonna to take the news.

G: Yeah, I think when when Dean was like, “Yeah, Sam said yes,” and Chuck says, “I know,” maybe Dean was like, "What? I thought you guys were in love!" [both laugh] [C: Yeah, exactly.] But maybe they're not anymore.

C: The Mistress Magda thing is 'cause Supernatural has an ongoing joke that Chuck is unmasculine and uncool, so that means he would be sexually submissive. [G: Yeah.] Yeah.

G: I think it's also a part of it is also that he pays for sex work, which Supernatural has always had a weird thing about, yeah. [C: Yeah.] It's a sign of like, lack of-

C: Real men can just get pussy by themselves or whatever, yeah. Though, I mean, in 5.03, I feel like it was treated more neutrally.

G: What's happening in 5.03?

C: The Cas "Free to be You and Me” thing.

G: I'm not sure what you're talking about.

C: With Chastity?

G: Ah, okay, okay. I think I was thinking about "The End." Yeah, I was like, "Where's that in 'The End'?" But you literally said "Free to Be You and Me," and I completely skipped over it.

C: Yeah, I said 5.03 and then I said "Free to Be You and Me," yes.

G: [laughs] Yeah, yeah. Dean is asking like, “Oh, what happened to Becky?” And Chuck's like, “Oh, yeah, it didn't work out. I had too much respect for her.”

C: What does that mean? I think th ejoke is that he wasn't attracted-

G: "If I respected you less, I may be able to stay in a relationship with you more." Like, what? [laughs]

C: I mean, respect has been used in like, “99 Problems” as like, a “Oh, sorry. I'm not actually gonna be attracted to you in front of your dad.” so like, I think that's just like, a euphemism for "I didn't want to fuck her."

G: Yeah, no, I mean definitely, that's what this is for.

C: Yeah, which is, yeah, unfortunate. I still don't understand why that's the language chosen.

G: Yeah, I think the implication here is like, I don't know. "I just didn't like her."

C: But he did, like, very much so in "The Real Ghostbusters."

G: Want to have sex with her?

C: Wasn't he doing his whole pining after her thing the whole episode?

G: I think he was just pining after the idea of like, someone liking him.

C: Why Becky?

G: Who knows? Why anyone, Crystal? [C laughing] [C: Fair.] Well, to answer your question honestly, it's because Becky is already into the show and also into Sam and Dean, and I think Chuck felt a little bit of ownership over those things. Like, "Well, if you like them so much, you should like me." [C: Perhaps so.] Yeah. But why anyone, Crystal? [both laugh] Yeah. And Dean just keeps on pressing. He just keeps on pressing. And Chuck eventually has to go, "Well, I mean, this can't be the reason why you called." [laughs] And I don't know. Dean says, "Yeah, Sam said yes, blah blah blah. Did you see what like, what's gonna happen after?" And Chuck is like, “The angels are keeping it very top secret. But I saw it, anyway, and it's tomorrow, high noon, Stull Cemetery." High noon is like, 12? Is that true?

C: Noon is 12, so I would assume.

G: Yeah. High noon is 12, but you smoke some weed. [laughs] Dean immediately recognizes this Stull Cemetery because it's in Lawrence, and Chuck says, “Well, it has to end where it started, I guess.” Chuck also says that like, there's no way to do all of this unless we have the rings and stuff and that he doesn't know what's gonna happen. But obviously, we know that's not true because he wrote extensively about the car. [C: Yeah. Yep.] Imagine if like, the car lost gas in the middle of the trip, and Dean has to hijack another car, and then he just dies [laughs] [C: It'd be over.], and the world ends, yeah. So fun.

C: So Dean's by the Impala, and Cas and Bobby show up. And Bobby's like, “You have a look on your face that indicates you're gonna do something stupid. Can you just give up, please?” [G: Pwease?] And Dean's like, "No, I need to go talk to Sam because it's Sam!" And Cas is like, “Don't do this. The only thing you're going to see out there is Michael [both] killing your brother." Lot of faith in Michael winning here. [laughs] And Dean says, “Well then, I ain't gonna let him die alone." And you care about this line.

G: Yeah. It matters to me.

C: Yeah. It is, I think, a well-placed line for people to care about.

G: And like, you know, it's the entire thesis of the scene in Stull Cemetery. And like, that's important. That matters to me. [laughs]

C: Now, we're at Stull Cemetery.

G: [laughs] We have the stupidest conversation in all of the earth. [C: Yeah.] Yeah, and maybe even other planets.

C: Yeah. And Lucifer's acting very different during this conversation. Like, he's not doing his whole smirky thing anymore.

G: He's doing like, a kicked puppy vibe.

C: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like- I think it makes sense, but I think the issue is that it's too similar to Sam that like, I feel like [G: Yeah.] it didn't work as much for me because I need there to be a clearer delineation between the characters.

G: And the thing is, they were trying to do something with like, "Oh, this is how Lucifer is similar to Sam" or something. I don't know, actually, what they're trying to do.

C: Maybe. I think they were maybe trying to do that. But like, I feel like with this TV show format where Jared Padalecki is playing both of them, I feel like the main thought is gonna be, "Is he like, not able to act as a different guy?" Yeah, Lucifer says it's good to see him, and Michael's like, "Yeah, it's good to see you, too. Can't believe it's finally time!" [laughs] And Lucifer's like, "I don't really want to do this." And Michael's like, "Yeah, I don't wanna do this either." [laughing] And Lucifer's like, "So like, why are we doing this?" And Michael says, "I have no choice after what you did." He doesn't even say what he did. [laughs] What did he do?

G: Yeah. I was waiting for that because I was waiting for-

C: Yeah, what did he actually do? He's been doing stuff now, but what did he do back then? He said he refused to bow to humans. That's not doing anything. That's saying a sentence. What did he do?

G: Like, the thing is, what I was waiting for is some sort of explanation of like, what actually occurred. Because like, Lucifer really does have this kind of like, "I'm the underdog. I was the wronged party." Like, every single thing that Lucifer has said this entire season has been like, “But don't you see? I'm actually the sad one!” That's his entire vibe. And so what you would expect to happen here is if they're going to continue to have Lucifer be the bad guy is for that to be like- that idea to be demolished. That like, "No, you just think- you just think you're the victim. But actually, what you did was like, so vitriolic, and you just delude yourself into thinking it's fine." But like, that's like, not the vibe of this conversation at all. [C: Yeah.] Like, this conversation ends, you're like, "I'm kind of on Lucifer's side." [both laugh] Like, what's that about?

C: Yeah. I don't know. It's- yeah. I mean, I don't think we're supposed to be strongly on Michael's side. Like, I think we're supposed to think he's like, a tightwad or whatever. [G: Yeah.] But I just feel like it would be expected that he says what Lucifer did. [laughs] [G: Yeah.] It would be helpful.

G: I think the implication is that he made God angry, but like, who give a fuck?

C: Yeah, yeah, he does- Yeah, that is the- So after "what you did" was "you made our dad mad, and then he walked out on us"? [G: Yeah.] Okay, I guess that's an interesting enough concept to explore. But like, so what did he do that made him angry? [laughs]

G: [overlapping] No, but like, what did he do to God, then?

C: Yeah. [laughs] What'd he do, though?

G: And like, the thing is like, again, if they were trying to do something interesting with Lucifer and Michael, they could have done it. It's just impossible to do now at the last episode of this season, and we don't see Michael again until Season 15, and like, you know what I mean? Like, if they try to develop-

C: Season 15? Well, we see AU Michael earlier, but yeah.

G: Like, if we tried to develop stuff more, like, it would be fine. If we know what Lucifer-

C: Yeah, but the only development is just, "And they're just like Sam and Dean! How? They're brothers!"

G: Yeah, that's what they're trying to do here. They're just trying to have, like, someone who will follow orders and someone who will not. And it's like, "Okay, well, is there more to anything?" [C: Yeah.] And I'm saying the whole thing about how it could have been interesting because it really could have been interesting, you know? You could have had a more complex Lucifer and a more complex Michael, but they just didn't develop it, and now they expect us to care, and like, well, we don't. [both laugh] Also like, I do find it so fascinating that here, it's real that Michael kind of doesn't want to do all of this shit, and I remember at some point in the season, I was like, “Wow, Michael's not really putting in any effort to get to Dean.” [C laughs] I think he was just kind of hoping that nobody says yes. [laughs] [C: Yeah.] He was like, "I don't really GAF. If Dean doesn't want to say yes, who am I to judge him? I also don't want to say yes."

C: Yeah. Zachariah was the only one who cared. [G laughs]

G: Literally, I think Zachariah was- I think maybe what happened is that Michael had a really, really, really enthusiastic subordinate. [C: Yeah.] And he was like, “Man, I can't disappoint this guy. I have to pretend I give a fuck.” [C: Mm-hm.] And the way he was like, “Oh, how I'm gonna show that I give a fuck is to be like, 'If you don't do this. I'm gonna kill you!'” [both laugh] [C: Yeah.] Zachariah's like, "Nooo! He's gonna kill me for real!"

C: He's like, “I really hope he doesn't do it so that I can kill him, and then there's no one who wants to do it.” [G laughs] [G: Literally.] Yeah, Lucifer goes, "What I did? What if it's not my fault?" And he goes, "Think about it. Dad made everything, which means he made me who I am. God wanted the devil." Okay, you will never be “Bug Like An Angel” by Mitski, so move on. Yeah, Lucifer says that he doesn't see the point of them fighting, like, “Is this just one of God's tests? We're brooothers! Let's just not do it!”

G: I mean, the point that they're trying to make here is freedom and choosing your own path, [C: Yeah.] veering off your fate, like F-A-T-E, etc etc. I just find it so fascinating that like, the thing that Cas says later is, "Peace or freedom." And it's like, for here, it's like, if you do one, you do the other, so I don't know.

C: Yeah, if you guys don't fight, then there will be peace because the Apocalypse will stop.

G: Yeah, and you will do it through the power of free will. So I don't know. I think they kind of trip a little bit in this entire conversation. Like, it's just mind-boggling. I don't know what they were trying to do.

C: Yeah. I don't know. Maybe if both of them walk off the chessboard, Lucifer's gonna continue sending storms everywhere or whatever, so it won't be peaceful? [G laughs] Who knows? Michael says that he can't step off because he's a good son, and he has his orders, and he's not gonna rebel like you. And he says that Lucifer always blames other people, and that they were all together and happy as angels, but in-

G: And this is like, a part where I was like, "That could be interesting." Like, Lucifer, is unable to take accountability for anything. And like, I think that that like, applies to how we have seen him prior. Like, he never talks about anything he did as anything that could possibly be wrong. He doesn't, you know, etc. Except here, it just looks like he's right to not blame himself, you know? I don't know. So stupid.

C: Yeah. So what Michael says is that he betrayed them and made God leave, and Lucifer's like, "No one makes him do anything. [G: Lucifer's like, "That's not my problem."] He's doing this to us." And then Michael says, “Let me throw in another Dean parallel. You're a monster, Lucifer, and I have to kill you!” [both laugh]

G: Which is something Dean literally says, right?

C: [laughing] Basically, I think! Well, it was like, "If you weren't my brother, I'd hunt you" or something. And also, I'm sure he says “monster” at some point.

G: Yeah. And he does have to kill Sam at some point in Season 2, yeah.

C: Yeah, all that. And Lucifer's like, "Okay, fine. Let's fight." And then we get, honestly, just a very corny theme.

G: I- shut the fuck up! [laughs]

C: It's a bad song, the car is going slow-

G: The song is bad.

C: And the cut is like- [laughing] I love the way that- Okay, I'll just do. Dean-

G: [laughing] Can I say first- Can I say something first, before you decimate this scene to pieces? [C: Yeah.] I love this scene. [C laughs] I love this bit. I think when Dean put that tape on the deck, I was smiling the entire time, and when he was driving, I was smiling the entire time. And I think a part of it is that it's a bright scene, and I was like, "Wow, we're in daytime! Love the sun!" But also, it's wonderful, I think, the whole vibe of it, of like, yeah, there's some dude- We had just had this really serious, mind-boggling conversation, and now there's this dude with a tape and a terrible song going through there. [C laughs]

C: Yeah. So there's a guy with a tape and a terrible song. His name is Dean Winchester.

G: He's going through here, yeah.

C: And he's going through here, yeah. So he's gotten to the cemetery, I assume, and he's like, "I want a soundtrack. [laughs] I want a diegetic soundtrack. I'm about to witness my brother die, [both laugh] but what I really want to do outside the cemetery is put a tape in with just a song that's bad!"

G: " - is associate a terrible song to his death, and I will never be able to listen to it, which is fine, because it's terrible."

C: - it's so bad, yeah. [laughs]

G: This is why he chose a terrible song. If he chose a good song, he'll be like, "This is a song I can never listen to again!"

C: Yeah, "I've ruined this song forever!" It's "Rock of Ages" by Def Leppard.

G: This is why you should only listen to terrible music when you begin a relationship, by the way. [C laughs]

C: Yeah. That is real.

G: [laughing] Just like me and Will Wood. [C laughs] Except I still listen to him, so.

C: The song begins with like, just a talky part that isn't cool or energizing or anything. [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] And he starts driving incredibly slowly. I myself have had to speed the scene up for AMVs, [both laugh] [G: No!] so I have a special hatred of it. [G: So true.] I just think if you're trying to do a slow and deliberate thing, don't do this song. And if you're trying to do a cool thing, don't have him drive so slow. Also, his dialogue seems to indicate that they're trying to do a cool thing.

G: Ah. I don't know. I think it was- I don't know. I think it was normal.

C: Well, I think it sucked! [laughs] Yeah. So he drives. And it's so nothing. It's like, the wheels going over the bumpy grass incredibly slowly.

G: The wheels in the Impala go round and round.

C: They sure do. And Dean gets out of the car, and he goes. “Howdy, boys. Sorry, am I interrupting something?" Cut to commercial. We come back. Dean is in the car.

G: There's no music. [C laughs]

C: [laughing] He opens the door, and he goes, "Hey! We need to talk." [laughing]

G: And the music is done. They cut through-

C: [laughing] Like, he came out, he was like, "Am I interrupting something?" The song kept going, he was like, "Wait wait wait. Give me a second." [laughs]

G: He was like, "Wow! This song actually does suck for real."

C: [laughing] Yeah, that just has to be what happened. That's what happened in between when there was the cut to commercial. [G: For real.] I just think this is a very obvious mistake, and I don't see how this couldn't have been caught in the editing.

G: Now, we're in the cemetery for real for real. We were also here for real for real earlier, but like, it was a stupid scene.

C: Yeah, we were here the whole time. Dean drove like, 10 feet. [G laughs]

G: Yeah. Anyway, Dean says, "We need to talk." And Lucifer's like, "Yeah, no, this is so stupid." And Dean's like, "No, I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to Sam." But Michael is like, pissed that Dean is here and is like, "Yeah, you you have to not be here. You have no right to be here." And Dean says, "Adam, if you're in there somewhere, I am so sorry." [laughs] At least he apologized!

C: Yeah. I think it was nice that he said that, but then he forgot about that guy for ten seasons, so.

G: Yeah. Michael says, "Adam isn't home right now," and Dean goes, "Well then, you're next on my list. But you know, right now, I need to talk to Sam." But Michael's real pissed, really furious. He goes, "You little maggot. You are no longer a part of this story!" But Cas goes, "Hey, assbutt?" What do you think of this? What do you think of this word? Do you like it? I've heard people not like it.

C: I think it's fun. I mean, I think I encountered it before I had the knowledge and feeling to form an opinion on it, so it's just like, part of who Cas is as a person to me.

G: Yeah. I think- I don't know. I think maybe that's true for me, too. It's just like, I don't know. I think it's cute. I think it's fun. But yeah, it's cuts to Cas and Bobby [laughs], and they're standing-

C: Yeah, they drove here together!

G: Yeah, and Cas is holding a Molotov cocktail, and he throws the bottle directly at Michael, like, directly at Michael's body. And also it's like, a Molotov cocktail of holy oil, I think, or holy fire. [C: Yeah.] And [laughing] Dean just looks back and goes- Oh, wait, and Michael erupts into flames. And Dean turns back and goes, "Assbutt" And Cas is just like, "Uh." And he goes, "He'll be back and upset, but you have your five minutes." But Lucifer, looking at this, goes, "Castiel. Did you just Molotov my brother with holy fire?" [laughs] And then it cuts to Dean, who gives Cas like, a little bit of a "Uh..." side-eye. He's like, "Um, so how are you gonna get out of here?" And Cas just goes, "Haha, [both] uh... no?" [both laugh] [C: So important.] And he's doing that same- he has the same vibe of when he told Sam, "No, it'll be fine."

C: "Everything's gonna be okay!"

G: Yeah. He has one lying face. Lucifer says, “No one dicks with Michael but me,” and he explodes Cas into a puddle. Not even a puddle. It's like, so everywhere. It’s like a fine mist of blood and goo and meat and everything. Anyway, we get the Dean reaction face where he looks at this, and he looks shocked, which is kind of funny, because later, when Bobby dies, Dean looks at it, and goes, "Noo!" [both laugh] So like, I don't know, the juxtaposition of those is pretty funny to me. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] But yeah, Lucifer starts trying to attack Dean, but then, yeah, Bobby shoots, and Lucifer twists his neck via air, and he dies. [C: Yeah.] And Dean goes, "[both] Noo!" Yeah. And then, like, Dean starts trying to crawl up the hood of the Impala or something. And then Lucifer, like, grabs him by the legs so that he can start punching, and he punches him to hell and back.

C: It's honestly kind of funny. The way the punches are cut feels like a comedy skit.

G: [laughs] Yeah. Anyway, what happened at some point, like, Dean falls to the ground beside the Impala. Dean starts calling out for Sam, but Lucifer is like, "No, yeah, he's in here, but, you know, we're going to feel every crack of your bone." Just like me in the morning. [C laughs] And yeah, he says, "We're gonna take our time." But then Dean, like, holds on to Sam's jacket, and he goes, "Sam, it's okay. It's okay. I'm here. I'm not gonna leave you." And he just like, repeats this for a bit. Like, he's really beaten the fuck up, and Lucifer's still going at him. And then suddenly, as Lucifer raises his fist for that final blow, he catches site of the little [laughs] replacement army guy [C laughs] that Dean put in the ashtray that Sam put in the ashtray before Dean did. [laughing] Wait, this joke escaped me completely. But I mean, like, yeah, there's the army guy there. The way they do it is like, yeah, it's there. And then we like, zoom in on Sam's eye, and there's a glint in in his eye that looks so obviously [C: Fake.] edited in. It looks bad! It looks horrible! And then we just have this quiet- this like, incredibly quiet scene. Is there background music? I don't think there was. But it was just this incredibly quiet scene where, like, you know, Lucifer and now Sam has his fist raised up, and he's looking at the little army guy, and we just get a bunch of flashbacks, and it is- At first, it was like, all of the times that are like Impala-relevant. So like, carving their initials on it, you know, stuff like that, and all the toys, and I don't know, the cassette tape collection. You know, stuff like that. Sleeping in the car, going through the car, Sam brushing- yeah. Did we ever see them carve their initials, aside from here? I don't think so. I think this is like, the first time.

C: Yeah, I mean, they do it when they're kids, and they'll do it in the Bunker table-

G: No, yeah. But I mean, we've never seen the carved initials like, ever.

C: Yeah, I don't think so.

G: Yeah. I mean, they bring it up in, you know, the finale finale. Or at least the pre-finale. They bring it up in 15.19, where they carve- [laughs] what did they carve?

C: Castiel and Jack?

G: I think they put CW- [laughs] No. They put SW, DW, MW, Jack, and Castiel. Or Cas, I think.

C: I think it was Castiel.

G: I'm sure it's Castiel. You know why? Because if they put "Cas," they would have made it double S, [C: Yeah!] and I would have rioted. [C laughs] I don't know. I think it's a fun thing. I think it's a fun thing, the carving, specifically. The flashbacks slowly turn from like, moments in the car to moments with Dean. So now we have scenes that are not in the car, but it's Dean. And like, it's actually like, quite emotional. Like, I felt like, "Aw!" Like, "The show's ending!" you know, when I was watching this scene. And then they did this really horrible editing choice [laughs] where the final scene is a scene where Dean like, hugs Sam in- when he comes back to life in "All Hell Breaks Loose," but they slow it down, so it's a really janky slow motion. [C laughs] So there's just this like, hype-up of- And like, the cuts become faster and faster too. So like, they are building up to something. It falls- it doesn't fall flat. I still think it's flies a little bit, but it's just flies lower than it should have otherwise if they used a more not slow-motion version of this scene. But okay. Go AMV makers or something. [C laughs] Anyway, yeah, we go back to Sam, who is now Sam. And he unclenches. [C laughs] It's him. And he goes, "It's okay. It's okay, Dean. It's gonna be okay. I got him." And then he gets the ring, puts it on the ground, he does the chant, and he looks so scared, and I think that's what got to me. Like, he does look so scared, like, about to jump into this thing. And as he's about to, Michael, like, comes in, and is like, "No! We can't do this. We can't do this." And eventually, like, Michael tries to get Sam to not jump, but Sam just grabs him in with him. [C: Yeah.] And the earth swallows him, and it closes up, and that's it. [C: Yep.] End of story. [C: Goodbye.] If this show ended here, this would be the last we see of Sam. [C: Yes.] And it is quite an affecting thing to think about because we start the story with Sam. Like, this is Sam's story.

C: They never treated it like Sam's story.

G: Yeah. But you know, like, if this was the final episode of the show, and it was just like, okay, start to end, like, we started out with Sam. And like, you know, Sam had an apple pie life or whatever. He was in college. That was like, barely apple pie. That's like, apple tart, maybe. [both laughing] He had an apple tart life, and yeah, and like, you know, he was safe, and he was there and had a girlfriend, which I'm only mentioning because it's important, not because I support the role of misogyny in Supernatural- [C laughs]

C: Well, I do! [G laughs]

G: Yeah, every time you mentioned Jess, it's in support of the role of misogyny in Supernatural.

C: Yeah. I'm nodding my head to show that I agree with misogyny in Supernatural.

G: Yeah. And then his last scene is, he just gets swallowed up by a hole in the earth and dies. And not even just dies, like, is miserable forever. Like, it sucks! [C: Not good.] And I don't know. Yeah, it's truly something. It's something. Yeah. I just wanted to say that.

C: I don't know. I guess it would just be framed as like, a tragedy, obviously. But like, what is the framing? Like, is part of it like, "Well, he made his mistakes, and now he's paying for it," or is it-

G: I don't think so. [C: Yeah, it's just-] I think it's like, "What are the choices we make? And you can make the right choice." And in this case, Sam made the right choice to jump into that thing, etc, and the world was saved, but like, you know, he's gonna be suffering in a cage forever, and Dean's miserable and alone, and Cas is going back to the place that rejected him, and Bobby's back to being by himself. And, you know, it's like, these concepts of, like, "What does it mean?" Like, yeah, you can do the right thing, [C: Right.] but none of that guarantees a happy ending. In fact, maybe even doing the right thing means subsuming yourself into the fact that you're never gonna be happy. [C: Yeah.] And that's- I think that's something. [C: Yeah. I suppose.] Wow. Sorry! A bummer! [laughs]

C: I mean, if it ended here, it wasn't meant to be a tragedy, which is meant to be a bummer.

C: Yeah, Dean's still kneeling on the ground where he was when Sam came back, and Cas shows up, and Dean goes, "Cas, you're alive?" And Cas says, "I'm better than that." and he heals Dean by touching him on the forehead, and Dean gets up.

G: I think there's something to, as I said earlier, like, Dean, like, loses everything, right? [C: Yeah.] Like, he lost Sam-

C: Yeah, he points it out on the car convo, too.

G: Yeah, and lost Bobby. But like, in that scene, he was like, in the car conversation, he was like, actively losing Cas, too. Like, this was somebody he connected with, and now, he's just gonna go back to Heaven. And I don't know. This one- I'm bringing this up here because the "Cas, you're alive?" is like a, you know, "If Cas is alive, then I haven't lost everyone." And then he brings back Bobby, and it's like, "Well, I haven't lost everyone! At least Bobby's here. At least Cas is here," and then he loses those too. And like, by choice, it seems like.

C: Would we say he loses Bobby? I feel like both of them just decided not to hang out. [laughs] Like, it's kinda on them.

G: Yeah, maybe he was like, "Oh, you never even loved my brother." [both laugh] Maybe Bobby was like, "What a good thing that Sam succeeded. Wow!"

C: Yeah, "Hell yeah!"

G: "I knew he had it in him to throw himself into a burning pit in Hell or whatever," and Dean's like, "Dude. Have some sensitivity! I'm mourning." And Bobby was like, "Wait, why are you mourning? I thought you were afraid of like, losing. You just lost your brother!"

C: "Losing, not losing Sam!" [both laugh] Yeah, that's why they don't talk.

G: And Dean was like, "I need to go."

C: So true. Yeah. It seems like more of a choice that's like, "Sam wanted me to live a normal, apple pie life with Lisa, and that means that I'm not gonna talk to any hunters anymore. Bye!" [G: So true.] Yeah. How would Cas have fit into this apple pie life? [G: I don't know.] Sam wanted Dean to go back and like, go live with Lisa and all that shit, but he also wanted Cas to watch over him. Yeah. When Cas was looking at Dean raking leaves, that wasn't about Destiel. He was just following his promise to Sam. [both laughing] Yeah, he was like, "I fucking hate doing this, but I told the love of my life Sam Winchester that I would."

G: Yeah, like, if Dean was secretly gay but he had to be straight to like, keep his promise to Sam, [laughing] Cas is secretly straight, but he had to keep his promise to Dean, and that's why he did all of that?

C: He's secretly straight? [G: Yeah.] Okay, so there's no love for Sam that's causing this.

G: No, yeah, no love for Sam other than, um, I don't know.

C: Brotherly?

G: He prommied! He prommied! [C laughs] He has respect for the promise. He has respect for the lie.

C: He has too much respect for Sam, and that's why he's following the promise and not fucking him. [G laughing] [G: Exactly!] So yeah, Cas heals Dean, who stands up and says, "Cas, are you God?" Kind of a crazy line. What did he mean by that? Dean has had a lot of issues with God this season. Is that related at all to this statement? [G: What is he asking here?] Does he actually believe this for a second, and yeah, also, what is he asking?

G: I think maybe he thought- he did believe it for a second.

C: And that Cas had been God the whole time? And how did he feel about that?

G: I think it's also a little bit wishful thinking, maybe. Like, if Cas is God, [both] he'll bring Sam back or something.

C: Yeah, like, "I thought that God was like, a completely detached figure who didn't give a fuck. But he was here the whole time."

G: Yeah, [laughing] "But if God wanted to fuck me, [C laughs] maybe he'll bring back my brother!" [C: Literally.] And he did! He literally did! [both laughing] But he's not God, he's an angel, so he only brought back Sam's body, not his soul. So true!

C: Yeah. Exactly. Cas says, "That's a nice compliment." which is also an interesting idea.

G: And he's smiling a little bit. He's doing a beatific smile or whatever the fuck.

C: Yeah, yeah. I love when Cas does a beatific smile. I don't think he's done one this whole season.

G: I don't think so too, and he was miserable.

C: But now that he has his powers back, he feels superior again in some way. He's not miserable, and he feels he has the right to beatifically smile. He goes like, "No, but I think he brought me back, new and improved." And he fucking resurrects Bobby. Does he lose his resurrection powers right after this episode? Because I feel it'd be very helpful if he continued to have them for Season 6.

G: Maybe Bobby is not dead. Maybe he just had a broken neck, but he was on the verge of dying. [C laughs] I don't think so. [C: Okay, sure.] I don't think that's true, because your spinal cord does the- what's that? The breathing-

C: Yeah, the brain needs to connected-

G: - the unconscious- What the fuck is that called? The things that you do that you don't think about?

C: The... autonomic functions. So yeah, Bobby's alive, and then we go to the Chuck voiceover in Chuck's house, and he's finishing up the manuscript. And he goes, "Endings are hard, and everyone hates all endings. The fans are always gonna bitch. [laughs] [G: Yeah.] And it's supposed to add up to something, which also makes it hard." [laughs] And then-

G: Imagine like, reading a book, [laughing] and this is like, how it ends. [C laughing]

C: Yeah, you're going to the ending, and it's like, "It's hard to write these because you're fucking annoying!" [G laughs] Anne Rice would do this. Anne Rice would say that you're interrogating the text from the wrong perspective.

G: What are you talking about?

C: Yeah, have you seen that? Apparently- I haven't read any of The Vampire Chronicles, but one of the books called Blood Canticle came out, and it was like, universally panned because it's just bad, and she like, wrote an Amazon review of her own book that was incredibly long, and all of it was like, "You guys don't know what the fuck you're talking about! I can't believe you don't recognize art! [G: So true.] Like, oh, you're telling me I should have gotten an editor? I don't use editors because I know I'm better than them," etc, etc. And one of the opening things is that she says, "You guys are interrogating the text from the wrong perspective." and I think that's the phrase that stuck from that review. But yeah, Chuck would do that.

So yeah, we now have a Dean and Cas, Cas and Dean scene in the Impala, and Dean's driving. Cas is sitting next to him. And Dean asks, "What are you gonna do now?" And Cas says, "Return to Heaven, I suppose. With Michael in the cage, I'm sure it's total anarchy up there." And Dean goes, "So what? You're the new sheriff in town?" And Cas smiles beatifically.

G: And Cas is like, "Ya." [laughs] Cas goes, "Ya, I suppose I am!"

C: Yeah, he says, "I like that" first.

G: [laughs] What's his problem? What is his problem? Let's do a Cas analysis right now.

C: What is his problem? He spent like, a season feeling absolutely miserable as he lost his powers little by little.

G: Yeah. And then he was proven right, so, that's why.

C: Yeah. And also, he was like, "God doesn't care about me. God doesn't wuv me," etc etc. [G: Yeah.] And he got all his powers back. God said, "You're my favorite special little angel," and kissed him on the forehead. [G: Yeah.] And he's like, "Thank God, I don't have to feel as depressed as I did last year when I was hanging out with all these fuckass guys. Goodbye!"

G: Oh, that's true. He probably does associate Dean with like, negativity, because he's like, "Yeah, this is the person that made me experience doubt." And like, that's not true, but Cas thinks it is, you know what I mean? [C: Yeah.] He does think that-

C: Yeah, 'cause he went from like, the lowest like, "Let's all get drunk and die as the world ends" to like, "Oh my god! Like, God loves me, God cares, I have my powers back. He like, wants this for me. I want this for me. Like, I don't want to hang out with this guy anymore. He ruined my life!" [G: Yeah.] Yeah, I mean, I think he still has a fondness for Dean, but I think there's just like a, you know, "That was then. That was my lowest. He was there for me at my lowest. Now, I'm at my highest. I don't need him." [G: Yeah.] Yeah.

G: Well, he will be there in all of your further lowests Cas, but only because [laughs] he will shove your face into the mud face-first. [both laughing]

C: Ex-act-ly. I think there's a fondness. I think there's also just a sense of superiority and moving on. Like, he's like, "God, as my therapist, said that I shouldn't talk to you anymore."

G: Yeah. And like, I think now, more than ever, Cas thinks like, "Oh. I'm an angel, and this is some guy." [C: Yeah.] And that's a sentiment of his that will continue on for a bit and will be the backbone of Season 6. So yeah, I think it's cool that we see it then here. That like, there's already inklings of that here.

C: So yeah, Dean goes, "Wow. God gives you a brand new shiny set of wings, and suddenly, you're his bitch again." Yeah. And Cas does say that he doesn't know what God wants. "I don't know if I can return. It just seems like the right thing to do." So okay, I think we were maybe overstating God's importance regarding his change of heart, but-

G: No, I mean, it's purpose. I think God's part of it, too, for sure. Like, God did bring him back, and that is a big thing. But like, he's chasing the sense of purpose, and he thinks the sense of purpose was given to him by God. Like, I don't think it's a we're attributing too much or anything.

C: Well, he says he doesn't know what God wants exactly.

G: Yeah, but like, "If God gave me my skill, I need to use it." That kind of thing.

C: Yeah. I think that does make sense. Everyone in Heaven hates him and wants him to die. It's incredibly funny that he was like, "I'm gonna go up and I'm gonna rule everybody!"

G: Yeah. Well, he was like, "Well, God said, 'Fag, you will forever.' And so who give a shit if everybody want me to die?"

C: Exactly. And Dean says, "If you do see him, tell him I'm coming for him next." And Cas was like, "Oh, you're angry!" [laughs]

G: He's kind of shocked. [laughs] It's so funny. [C: Yeah.] He's like, "You're angry." and he's saying this like it's a reveal. [laughs]

C: Yeah, he's like, "Wait, aren't we like, good? Like, I'm cruising. I'm living my best life. I brought your Bobby guy- that one? He's back. Like, we all knew your brother was gonna die. Like, what's up?" Dean goes, "That's an understatement." And Cas says, "He helped. Maybe even more than we realize." And yeah, Dean says explicitly, "[both] That's easy for you to say, because he brought you back. But what about Sam? And what about meeee?"

G: Yeah. "Where's my grand prize?"

C: "All I got is my brother in a hole."

G: Yeah. And Cas says this line that like, is kind of iconic to me. Also doesn't make a lot of sense. I don't know. They're trying to do something. He says, "You got what you asked for. No paradise, no Hell. Just more of the same. Admit it, Dean. What would you rather have? Peace or freedom?" And he says it, "Peace... or freedom?" [both laugh] He's really selling it.

C: He's practicing for his TED Talk.

G: Yeah, we go to Dean, but like, as he turns his head to talk to Cas, Cas has disappeared, and Dean goes, "Well, you really suck at goodbyes. You know that?" [C: Yeah.] I mean, it is incredibly funny that Dean was like, "What about Sam? What about me?" And Cas is like, "Well, you made your choice, Dean." [both laughing] And then he seemingly immediately goes to the Cage to bring back Sam!

C: No, that is so true! [laughing] Yeah, no, at what point was Cas like, "Okay, it's Cage time." Like, did he go to Heaven first for a while, and he was like, "This kind of sucks!"

G: "This is kind of boring. I need an adventure." [laughs]

C: Like, "I'm kinda bored. Let me just nip down to the Cage for a second." Or yeah, was it just like, "Dean, you have to accept that Sam is gone... forever. Oh my god, he's gonna be soo happy when I surprise him next week!" [both laughing] Like, I guess he also didn't know that he was gonna succeed. Maybe he just wanted to be like, [G: Give it a shot, yeah.] "I'm gonna say something so wise. It's gonna leave Dean in a really emotionally stable spot if I try and fail. I think this is gonna be what's really gonna help him throughout the rest of his life in case I die down there." So what is it that- Okay, like, Dean asked for this, when?

G: Asked for what? What are you talking about?

C: "You got what you asked for, Dean"? Like, what is he talking about, and also when did he ask for it?

G: No Dean's just general idea that like, Heaven shouldn't exist.

C: True. Still exists?

G: What?

C: But it still does exist.

G: I don't know. I mean for Dean, it's- I don't know. I don't know.

C: No, no, no. "No, Paradise, no Hell" is just the outcomes of the Lucifer/Michael fight. [G: Apocalypse, yeah.] That's what he's talking about. There we go. Okay, yeah. He didn't want the fight to happen. The fight didn't happen. [G: Yeah.] And that means that the earth is going to stay the same. [both] Yeah. "Peace or freedom." What is peace to this situation?

G: I have no idea. Is peace-

C: Is it when Heaven wins the fight? Is that what peace is?

G: Yeah. But like, I don't know. I think you can argue that this is peace and freedom. Like, yeah, Dean's out of the hunting life. He's fine. He's miserable, but he's fine. I mean, you can make the argument that peace doesn't necessarily mean happiness, and yeah. I don't know. It's just like, it falls a bit flat. Maybe that's the reason why. Cas is like, "Oh, this argument is not working. I think I need to get Sam out of the Cage." [laughs] Yeah. So we have more of a voiceover. Chuck is going like, "Yeah, this is the last time Dean and Bobby are going to see each other for a very long time." It's not that long. [laughs] Also like, this is cut by like, Dean and Bobby having a hug and like, Dean driving away. And Chuck says, "Bobby's going to be hunting a rugaru next week, but Dean won't be. And Dean didn't want Cas to save him. Every part of him-"

C: Very interesting 4.01 callback. I was surprised that it happened here.

G: Also like, it's just an interesting way to put it. [C: Yeah.] "Dean didn't want Cas to save him." He was still alive. Was he gonna die of injuries?

C: Oh, I thought he was talking about 4.01.

G: No! He was talking about just this!

C: 5.22. Just now? [G: Yeah, yeah.] He's gonna die from being punched in the face?

G: He wants to die and find a way to bring Sam back. I mean, he can get CTE, so [laughs] he'll die a long while from now. I think it's just an interesting way to say that Cas saved him. Like, I don't think that's true, necessarily.

C: I think if they wanted this to work, he had to be dying a little bit harder by the time Cas showed up.

G: Like, I think it could be fine to have him like lying on the ground obviously dying of injuries or something. [C: Yeah.] And then Cas shows up and like, he's back to life. But yeah, apparently, every part of him, every fiber he's got wants to die or find a way to bring Sam back, but he isn't gonna do either. He's not gonna die, ever? [both laugh] "Because he made a promise." Yeah. And the promise manifests itself by Dean knocking on Lisa's door. And it's like, night, and Lisa opens the door, and she like, looks a bit shocked, and Dean is like, wearing a very sheepish smile. And he goes like, "Hey. If it's not too late, I think I'll take you up on the beer." And Lisa goes, "It's never too late." Shut the fuck up! [both laugh] I'm so sorry. It's not her fault that she's a woman in Supernatural.

C: Yeah. And also, we said that we'll try to analyze her more like a real person [G: Yeah.] rather than a woman in Supernatural because she's going to be in so much of Season 6 that it doesn't make sense to dismiss her every time she's on screen. [G: Yeah, okay, so.] But it is hard. [laughs] But yeah.

G: I think right now, what we ought to do is just discuss this as it is right now, which is that it's a really stupid thing that Supernatural did. And like, we need to get it out of our system here, because in Season 6, I think it's our responsibility, I think, to like, engage with the Lisa storyline as benevolently towards Lisa as possible or something. [C: Yeah.] Yeah, this is so stupid. [both laugh] And like, you know, Dean steps in, and then, like, Lisa hugs him, and goes, "It's okay. It's going to be okay."

C: Like, are you his mommy? What is this? [laughs]

G: What is this? And it's just like, this is what I was trying to compare with earlier with Sam with like, Jess, but the thing with Sam and Jess in their apple tart life was that like, Jess doesn't know anything. And like, Sam wasn't in active trauma mode in college, which is a very different dynamic from Dean and Lisa, where Lisa knows that stuff happened, but doesn't know anything about anything about it. And it's like, having to play the role of being like, careful and walking on eggshells around this guy while she is also taking care of a child. Which like, I don't know. It's just an incredibly different dynamic. And like, I understand that what they're trying to do is that "it's not just Lisa, it's the family!" Like, she has a kid. And I remember when they were trying to do the Lisa thing earlier this season, and we both said that like, why not Cassie? And it's like, that's probably for the best, because if it was with Cassie, that's gonna be a toddler. And it's like, maybe it's better that it's like, a 13- or 12-year-old kid.

C: Is he really that old?

G: I think so. 12? Yeah?

C: I'm gonna look up Ben Braeden. Well, no, okay. He had a fling with Lisa nearly 9 years prior, and then there's the 9 months of pregnancy, so he was probably turning 8 in season. [G: Yeah.] So yeah, I guess he's 10 to 11 now. [G: Yeah.] Yeah.

G: But yeah, I mean, so the point is to have a kid. But yeah, I don't know. It's just, the way they characterize Lisa is like, what is this?

C: She's just been here waiting for him the whole time.

G: She's just been here waiting for him, like, yeah. And I don't know. Again-

C: This is also how they characterize Kate Milligan.

G: Yeah, I'm trying to- I guess I'm gonna try to hold out severe judgments until Season 6, so.

C: Yeah, I think the way I have to approach it is just like, "This is what I see on screen. What is the type of person who would be like this?" and then try to just fill that in with a complete person. [G: Yeah.] Like, okay. Say she has been waiting for Dean the whole time. Like, why do we think that is?

G: Yeah. I don't know. [laughs] I think maybe she just got freaked out by Dean last time, and it's not like she was waiting for Dean. It was more of a, "Oh, thank god this guy I thought was going to kill himself or something is alive!"

C: Yeah. But I also feel like if you're someone who cares or is nervous about it, like, you start throwing a bunch of questions, right? There's a kind of franticness that she just doesn't represent because she's just meant to be this calming presence.

G: Yeah, that's the thing.

C: No, okay, I'm getting off the- Okay. I need to think of her as a real person.

G: Because they've done Amelia with Jimmy, so like- Oh my god, Jimmy's dead. RIP. But like, they did Amelia, and they did her well. [C: Yeah, I liked her.] I think her characterization was like- she felt like a person who was actually experiencing this shit. But like, for some reason, they just completely missed the mark on Lisa. At least here, yeah.

C: Yeah. And I get- Okay, she finds out monsters are real, and Dean saves her son's life. I get like- I don't know if you're sort of unsatisfied, I get like, making a big deal of that in your head, especially because it was like, linked with an extremely stressful time of her life, and like, her learning a lot of new things about the world. I get like- I don't know. Sort of putting Dean on some sort of hero hot guy pedestal after that. And then, yeah, he comes by. He worries her a lot. And then he comes back. I think there's enough adrenaline associated with him that she might just be like, "Okay, yeah, let's be chill and try to have him stay." But I don't know. Is that the vibe? What is the vibe? I don't know. I mean, apparently, she talked about him to her friends before Season 3 as the best lay she's ever had, [G: Yeah.] so she has had a long term sort of thing for Dean.

G: I think, okay. You know what? I berate her so much. If I was in her position, I think I'd let- not Dean, but like, you know, a person who is [laughs] akin to Dean in my life, into my life. I think maybe I'll do it, so I don't know.

C: Yeah. Like, you're worried about this person. This person is also exciting and [G: Yeah.] you're kind of bored.

G: Yeah, or like, I don't know. But like, I think because we know for a fact that this isn't just like, helping Dean get back to his feet or something. It's- Dean will be the dad of the family now.

C: Yeah, she wants them to be Ben's dad. I think it's at that point where I start being like- Yeah.

G: Like, yeah, maybe I'll let this theoretical Dean into my life. But if I had a theoretical child, I won't be like, "Yeah, you can stay here forever and ever, and also, you're the father of this kid." Or the mother. I don't know. Gender diversity. [laughs]

C: Yeah, like I'd put you up in a hotel for a few weeks.

G: I think it's like, you can stay over for a bit until you get back to your feet, and I'll help you find a job if you want to do that, I'll help you find an apartment or something.

C: Yeah. And if during that time, he proves himself to be really good with Ben, and they like, fall into bed together a few times also, then I can see them getting to where they are in Season 6. But the immediacy doesn't make sense.

G: Yeah, I think what it is is that it just is like, a foregone conclusion that they're gonna be a family now, is the thing that bothers me. [C: Yeah.] Because if it was like, Lisa helped Dean back to his feet, and then, in Season 6, months or years later, they have ended up becoming a romantic couple, I'll be like, "Yeah, that makes sense. Why not?" But like, here, it's like, they just go right into it. Like, are they gonna fuck later tonight? [laughing] Like, what's the situation? What is the situation? What is the situation? What is the situation? I don't know.

C: I could not tell you. See, I feel like all of my making Lisa seem like a real person things involve, like, Dean sort of being an exciting fling thing that maybe develops more later. But yeah, this is very much like, "Here he is. My husband, home from the war." [G laughs]

G: You don't even know the guy! Well, whatever. I think we should move on 'cause etc. It like, zooms out slowly, and then Chuck goes, "So, what's it all add up to? It's hard to say. But me, I'd say this was a test for Sam and Dean. And I think they did alright." And then there's like, flashbacks, whatever. Yeah. "Up against good, evil, angels, demons, destiny, and God himself, they made their own choice. They chose family. And well, isn't that kind of the whole point?" No, it's not! It's hope! [both laugh] Yeah, you're lying to me!

C: You wrote that, Chuck. You should know.

G: Yeah. Anyway, you know, stuff's happening. Then we go back to Chuck, and he writes, "The End." And then he goes, "No doubt, endings are hard. But then again, what isn't?" [laughs] No, he says, "Nothing ever really ends, does it?" And then he like, gives a little bit of a smile, and then he disintegrates into the air. And he's God. RIP. No, not RIP. [C laughs] Amen? I don't know. [both laughing]

C: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's that.

G: I think it's Amen.

C: I'm a little confused by what he means by, "they chose family."

G: Yeah, [laughing] I did say we should discuss it, but now that we're here, I'm like, "I don't know." I don't know.

C: Okay, it's been a test for Sam and Dean. Okay, the test was is Dean gonna grow up and trust Sam enough that like, he's not gonna prevent Sam from doing this. And is Sam's-

G: [laughing] And is Sam gonna shove himself into a pit?

C: - love for Dean strong enough that he'll be able to wrest control back from Lucifer and throw himself into a big old hole? [G laughs] That's the test?

G: [laughing] I don't know. It-

C: And choosing family means respecting your brother from Dean and-

G: [laughing] But only if he wants to die. In other ways, you shouldn't respect him. [C: Uh-huh.] I don't know. I don't know. I mean- yeah. I think, no. Actually, you know what. In further analysis, I think what he's saying is that they made their own choice, and that is the point. In that they chose family- The point is the choice, not the family.

C: But like, how did they choose family, though?

G: Secret! [both laughing] I don't know. I think they chose family in that Dean decided that even if it means he'd die, he won't let Sam die alone. I think that's it.

C: Okay, sure. And then that is how Sam was able to wrest back control, 'cause Dean was there. [G: Yeah.] Or the Impala was there. [G: Yeah.] Literally, if Bobby had just driven the Impala over, and then stood to the side, it would have been fine, too. [laughs]

G: So yeah, I think the point is the choice, not the family.

C: Okay. Sure. Alright. I see it.

G: Hashtag abortion rights or whatever. [C: Yeah.] Yeah. So we go back- This scene, it boggles my mind. So we go back to Lisa's house, and we're like, looking through the window, and like, Dean is inside, and Lisa is on the counter, preparing food. And then she goes and like, serves the the food. And, like, Ben is also on the table.

C: Help in the kitchen, Dean.

G: Dean is drinking whiskey. [C: Yeah.] Why?

C: 'Cause- Yeah, she offered him a beer, so it doesn't really make sense.

G: I mean, I understand that people can drink whiskey, in houses, even, but like, it's dinner time. You're about to eat. You're about to eat. You've not done anything yet. You're about to eat. There's a kid in front of you. [C: Yeah.] Who- like, Lisa offered him whiskey?

C: Dean's looking off to the side away from Ben also, which is like, I feel like if your mother decides that you just have a new dad now, like, that new dad now should take some effort to talk to you. [laughs] [G: Yeah.] He's literally ignoring the child, swigging whiskey, and Lisa's like, "Yes. This is what I want."

G: I don't know what is it with the alcohol that really- Do you understand where my hesitation comes from? And also like, do you think it's reasonable? Like, he shouldn't be drinking whiskey here, I think, is my opinion.

C: Like, in this scene? In her house? In front of the kid? What's your particular objection.

G: Well, it's before the- I think whiskey is like, that's after food.

C: Oh, okay. [both laugh] That was it?

G: This is just a gourmet thing. No, but like, I think it's like, after food, and it's like, not with the children. I don't know. Because if this was wine, I'd probably be like, "It's fine." But I think whiskey is much more stronger than wine. [C: Yeah.] And I just, I don't know. Because I don't wanna come in here and be like, "If you're an alcoholic, you should like, not be near your children at all." Like, that's- 'Cause I'm afraid that it's gonna come off like that, right? [C: Uh-huh.] And that's why I'm asking like, do you think this is like, an appropriate thing for me to say? I just think like, again, it falls into the idea of like, Lisa, what is she doing? And what is Dean doing? And what is Ben thinking? I don't know. If you're a kid, and then some just random guy shows up, and he's like, I don't know, "I'm gonna be here for a while," and then he's drinking whiskey like, on the dinner table, it's like, have some courtesy. Have some decorum. I don't know. What do you think.

C: I think it is probably- like, on best behavior, one probably wouldn't do that. I think there are different norms in different families about like, drinking and the presence of children and all that. I think it's fine that he's doing it.

G: You think so? Okay.

C: And I don't think that Ben would necessarily think too much of it. I think that it speaks to a level of trust that Lisa has in Dean that I don't think is entirely earned. Yeah. I mean, it is kind of odd that it's the last shot of the season. [G: Yeah.] But I guess the point is just Dean's in a lot of pain, and he won't be able to fully commit himself to this. I think that the discomfort might be like, it's purposeful. [G: Intentional.] Yeah.

G: Okay. But the discomfort makes sense, you think?

C: I think you are supposed to- I think they do make it pretty clear that he's like, not looking at Ben while he's drinking. I think it is meant to be like a thing where he's not able to commit himself fully. But also, they are so in love with the idea that it's a given that they're just going to be a family now that it is kind of hard to know if the discomfort is intentional. I think the point is just Dean is in pain is the main point, and I don't know if there's an additional point.

G: But they also just drink whiskey all the time, so it could mean absolutely nothing. [laughs]

C: Yeah, I mean, they drink beer more than whiskey, but yeah, they do drink whiskey sometimes.

G: Yeah. Okay, well. [laughs] We zoom out of the house, and then there's like, a streetlight, and then it zaps out, and then there's someone beneath it. And then, like, we go to that someone. [laughs] And it's Sam, watching this entire thing. He's already back! [both laugh]

C: No, I'm so confused.

G: [laughing] It's been like, a day.

C: How was he in there for 200 years if this is tonight? Unless it was later?

G: I've been saying. I have been saying.

C: Is this meant to be like, a time skip?

G: I don't think it's a time skip. I think it's like, at most three days later. [laughs]

C: Okay, 'cause I thought this was like, tonight, right? Which means that Sam was in there for, like, what? Five hours? [both laughing] Well, okay, let's see. This confrontation happened at high noon, and he went in at like, around 12:07 or whatever because Michael was only gone for like, a few minutes. And then it's night. It's like, dinner time. So it's like, 7PM? So Sam was in there for like, seven hours?

G: Yeah, it is so incredibly funny to me that like, I don't know. When Cas was talking about- or when Anna was talking about- or I don't know, when the both of them were talking about how Cas got Dean out of Hell, Cas was like, "Oh, yeah, I lost an entire garrison. It was so difficult. We were like, on a time crunch, and we still didn't make it." And then he got Sam out in seven hours? [laughs]

C: Wait, wait, that implies- were they fighting through Hell for the whole like, four months or whatever while Dean was gone? Two months? [G: I think so, yeah.] Okay, I mean, I guess the Cage- maybe there's a shortcut to it.

G: [laughs] He just literally opened it up again with the rings and then just went in. So true.

C: No, that's true, because Dean pocketed the rings, right? So Cas could have just slipped them out of his pocket and done the incantation and then went in.

G: So true. Go, Cas.

G: Well, what did we think about this episode? I found it interesting. [C: It's fine.] I found it fun to talk about. I found it fun to watch. I found it pivotal. [C laughs] I found it influential. [laughs]

C: I found it fine. [G laughs]

G: Etc. Okay, Best Line/Worst Line. I would say my best line are the combo of Dean being like, "It's okay, it's okay, I'm here." and then Sam going, "It's okay. I got him." Like, those two lines, you know? I don't know. I think it's the "It's okay" part of it where they're like, trying to comfort each other where, you know, for Dean, it's like, "It's okay. You're not gonna die alone." For Sam, it's like, "It's okay. I'm going to be able to do this thing," which I think also reflects, like, their perspective on their roles and their priorities, etc.

C: Yeah, yeah, that's nice.

G: Wow! Analysis. [laughs] I'm so annoying! Okay, let's go.

C: I don't think I have any analyses. Best lines- I don't know. I think Lucifer was appropriately creepy with "All those times you ran away, you weren't running from them. You were running towards me." [G: Towards me!] And I think Cas was very cute when he went, "Oh, you want me to lie. It's gonna be okay!" [laughs]

G: So true. He is cute. I think my worst line is like, when Michael was like, "After what you've done?" [both laugh] or whatever, and then just never elaborated. It just makes Michael sound so vindictive.

C: Yeah. I didn't like when Dean called Cas a maybe slur.

G: Oh, yeah. He did call Cas a maybe slur. [C laughs] Spreadsheets. Okay. Misogyny, there is, and it is fundamental to the episode.

C: Yeah. But also, are we gonna end up putting points in every Season 6 episode where Lisa is present? Or should we just get all the Lisa points out of our system right now?

G: I think we can figure out what they're doing and how they're doing it, etc. Like, I think we can find a way to interface with nuance, etc. [C: Yeah.] I think the misogyny here is three. Yeah?

C: Yeah, that makes sense to me. Go for it.

G: Racism, I think, is 0?

C: Yes, I don't remember anything.

G: And homophobia. I do think that is here.

C: Yeah, I think "junkless sissy" should count as a homophobia. It's also a transmisogyny, but that would be included under misogyny, and we already gave it 3.

G: I think it's a 3. I think 1 and 2 is like, casual stuff. This one feels elevated from casual.

C: Huh. I mean, he calls Sam a pansy in Season 2, also, right? What did we give that?

G: I don't know. What episode is that?

C: Uh, "Tall Tales"? Season 2. Oh, we were only giving points per occurrence and not magnitude back then, so.

G: A failure in our duty and action.

C: I feel like I'm fine with a 3. I feel like I wouldn't have gone for a 3. I would have gone for a 2. But I'm fine with a 3.

G: Okay, let's do it. Okay, IMDb. Who's winning? Or we shouldn't say because, like- It's me. But like- [laughs] Next week. It's for next week's season ender wrap up. [C: Yeah.] Okay, so what's your guess?

C: It's high. [G: Of course.] 9.4.

G: Ah. Can I be honest? That is also my guess. Do you wanna guess something different for it?

C: So you're just gonna win because you're currently winning, and we'll have the same point differential if you vote the same as me? [G: Yeah.] I see.

G: Yeah, no, but I'm honest! I'm honest. I have integrity as a person and a podcaster.

C: You know what? I'm gonna change mine. I'm just gonna go big or go home. [G: Okay.] I'm gonna say 9.6, even though that's absolutely wrong.

G: How about I go bigger than you? [laughs]

C: No! [laughing] You're free to do whatever you want.

G: Okay, I'm going to go 9.7. No, I'm gonna go 9.8. Go big or go home. [C laughs] Is that too high? I feel like that's insane.

C: It's definitely not a 9.8, and I don't even think it's a 9.6, which is why I said a 9.4.

G: Okay, I'll put 9.8

C: What I should be doing is, I should be calculating the biggest point differential- or the smallest point differential I need from you in order for my average to actually reach yours, right?

G: Okay, let's do it. Sure, yeah. Figure it out.

C: I just think that'll take long, and I don't want to, actually. [G laughs] But that would be the right strat.

G: Okay, let's see. Okay, I'll see it now. So your guess is 9.6, and mine is 9.8. If it's lower than 9.6, you have a pretty good chance, I think, maybe. [C: Maybe.] I don't think it's lower than- I think it's actually exactly 9.6. [C: Really?] Yeah. Okay, [both] let's see. Oh! It's a 9.7! [laughing]

C: Oh my god! Look at that! World peace. Well.

G: World is a wonder, even. [C: Yeah.] Well, there's many user reviews.

C: Yeah, I'd assume so.

G: People enjoy it. "5 years in the making. Amazing." "The finale that should have been." Shut the fuck up. But it's true. [laughs] But you shouldn't say it!

C: "Most of us can't say enough about how terrific the show was, with the exception of one classy genius who felt that the episode was too emotional and that Dean should end up with a skanky chick." What is the- I don't understand. I want to know the source. I want to know what they're summarizing as this.

G: This one did make me feel feelings. This was in November 20, 2020- which is November 21 for you guys. It's just November 20 for me. It goes, "Sam and Dean and Cas and Bobby deserved this ending. An ending with emotion and meaning." And I'm like, "Aw!" The finale was so bad. [C: Yeah.] Yeah. At least you're gonna give a fuck, [laughs] just because it's so horrible. [C: It's true.] "Power of love." So true. "It all started with a car." Yeah, I think there's like, a lot of people after the finale going like, "This is what the ending should have been like." I don't know. People are just into it. Oh, this one says, "I don't get the hype." Let's see, what's your input? "I would say the episode was beautifully done and written well, especially how it started with talking about Baby, but as a serious ending, I don't like it because it has one brother in Hell and one above, and just like the actual series finale that I also don't like, it's not how I would want it to end." That's your problem! [C laughs] People are into it. This one says, "Anticlimactic. The show is starting to run out of ideas. [C: What?] It has done that a long time ago."

C: Well. It's gonna be a while.

G: That's pretty much it. Wow, we are done with Season 5!

C: Someone keeps calling the Lucifer!Sam "Lusamfer," [laughs] which is kind of fun.

G: Isn't it Samifer? Isn't that what they say?

C: Samifer's also the ship name, though, isn't it? [G: Ah.] So I feel like some people use it to say the guy, and some will use it to say the ship name. Lusamfer is a way around that, I suppose. [laughs]

G: Yeah. Okay, well, that’s it for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next week, we will be doing a Season 5 wrap-up episode with a very special guest, so check that out, wait for it, etc.

C: Yeah. [G: Yeah!] Not like, a celebrity, though. Does it make it seem like it’s a celebrity? They’re a celebrity to me, but they're not a genuine celebrity.

G: They're a celebrity to me, but they’re not Misha Collins. [C: Yeah.] Thank god. [both laugh] Yeah. Leave us a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts.

C: Follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, which is where our outtakes live, and check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com.

G: You can email us any feedback, comments, or inquiries at [email protected]. See you guys next time! [both] Bye!

[guitar music]

#transcript

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