#dragon lady stereotype

[maximura]

Jung Wooyoung | Year Of The Dragon (2024)

[cologona]

Defending Talia in Lost Days ‘til I’m blue in the face my girl was not a gaslight gatekeep girlbossing she was running on borderline irrational hope and an inability to let go.

[rxttenfish]

still thinking of the person who said that this book depicted scientists accurately and was on the dot about it like

people are dying. people are being mauled by mermaids and dying. this is downright offensive to me.

[phoukanamedpookie]

What makes it worse is that, in order to justify this mishandling of a fantastic character, you have to directly contradict the explicitly stated themes and messages of the show. Remember:

No one is born bad.

We are all capable of great good and great evil.

Everyone deserves a chance.

"Except for Azula" was never a clause in those statements.

And to justify that narrative choice means that Ozai, of all people, is more humanized than she is. Not to mention how judging Azula's behavior by adult standards is a deeply harmful pattern that negatively affects girls of color in real life.

Why did they end Azula's story on a disturbing breakdown, crying and screaming, chained to the ground like an animal, while our main characters stand there and watch passively?

They could have shown us a scene during the celebrations where she was drinking tea and observing the crowd, to reassure the audience she was okay at least. Her last scene was traumatizing, and i hate how the show tried to make it seem like it was a satisfying close to her story.

Having a light-hearted ending where everyone is happy and smiling EXCEPT her, because she is straight up snubbed by the narrative, just seems mean-spirited to me.

"There was supposed to be a fourth season focusing on Azula." Okay, but it didn't come out. It would have been so easy to show Azula at the end of season 3, just having calmed down, just her being calm. Just take ten seconds to show her awful breakdown had passed and she was somewhere safe and somewhat at peace. That's it.

The more i think about it the angrier i get.

[fandomshatepeopleofcolor]

Do you know negative tropes/steretypes popular in fandom that are associated with Asian women/teenagers and anger? It feels much less common than opposite stereotypes of Asians, but I'm sure there are some nasty ones I'm unaware of.

I'm frustrated with a fandom I won't name constantly potraying certain character (teenage Chinese woman) as meek, passive, stoic and unconditionally supportive of white boys from the franchise, even when their behavior would go against her most deeply held beliefs. I want to write a fanfic focusing on her anger, trauma and other negative and conflicting emotions that fandom tends to ignore, but I fear of pivoting into opposite end of problemematic potrayal.

So I'm by no means an expert on asian tropes in media. but the one that comes immediately to mind is the dragon lady but that's usually a mom or older asian woman that's very mean.

so those are two resources for dragon lady. but like I said i'm no expert and I would like to put this out there for our followers to chip in!

mod ali

[beardedhandstoadshark]

what's your least favourite pokemon?

You know how songs like despacito are kinda ok and maybe even a bit nice when you hear them the first few times, but then the radio keeps playing them over and over and over so you go watch tv instead, but they play that song in the background of their clips and in the store and literally everywhere you go until you can’t stand to even listen to the first three notes? Anyways, Charizard-

[akiizayoi4869]

I have nothing else to add to this post since everything has already been said. But I agree 100%

The perfect Twitter thread that explains gender and race dynamics behind reactions to Azula

You can read it here.

The original context is the controversy surrounding Neera Tanden, but as the thread progressed, I started seeing how the same dynamics were playing out in ATLA fandom too.

You should definitely read the entire thing, but for the sake of focusing on what I’ve observed in fandom, I’m going to highlight some things that were said or linked to. I’ve bolded some parts that really struck a note.

“So I think a lot of things happened that contributed to the treatment of Tanden, but here I’ll focus on gender & race, given many seem to be denying these could be factors at all.“ (source)

“Overall, […] it is safe to say that women in general will be dinged more than men for being ‘assertive,’ regardless of race, & that WOC in particular will be penalized more than white women, as well as in ways that relate specifically to different racist stereotypes.“ (source)

“Research on general gender-based stereotyping has consistently documented a phenomenon sometimes referred to as ‘lack of fit,’ such that when an individual woman’s behavior conflicts with a stereotype, she is subject to negative backlash.“ (source)

“The Tightrope is prescriptive in nature in that it stems not from assumptions about how women do behave but from assumptions about how they should behave. The Tightrope reflects that high-status jobs […] are seen not only as male but also as masculine. As competence in such work heavily overlaps with traits coded as masculine, women must behave in traditionally masculine ways in order to be seen as competent. However, women who behave too masculinely often are seen as ‘aggressive’ or, more generally, as lacking social skills. Consequently, women have to ‘walk a tightrope’ between appearing too feminine (liked but not respected) or seen as too masculine (respected but not liked).” (source)

“So what do women do? If we appear gentle, people will approve of our personalities, but also deem us to be too weak for positions of power. However, if we appear tough enough for the position, people will judge us as cold, anti-social, or overly aggressive.“ (source)

“Because the typical occupant of a high-powered job is and has always been a man, women often are not seen as good a ‘fit’ for high-powered jobs. This ‘Lack of Fit Model’ means that women often have to provide more evidence of competence than men in order to be seen as equally competent. The Prove-It Again! pattern has been documented by scores of studies that show […] that people often perceive men’s successes are attributable to skill and women’s to luck, that women’s mistakes tend to be noticed more and remembered longer, that objective requirements tend to be applied rigorously to women but leniently to men, that women tend to receive polarized evaluations, and that people tend to value more highly whatever qualifications men have.” (source)

“So women in general face a lot of issues when pursuing power or just when expressing confidence in their everyday lives. Again, these issues afflict all women, but are they are especially exacerbated when combined with racial stereotyping.“ (source)

“Asian American women reported to one researcher that white employers and co-workers expected them to be ‘passive and deferential,’ and expressed surprise when they ‘spoke up and resisted unfair treatment.’” (source)

“Implicit in the racialized gender stereotypes of women of color is the notion of insatiable sexuality” (source)

“Other Asian interviewees reported that their successes were discounted in a variant of the ‘he’s skilled, she’s lucky’ pattern.” (source)

“I am frequently perceived as being very demure and passive and quiet, even though I rarely fit any of those categories. When I successfully overcome those misperceptions, I am often thrown into the ‘dragon lady’ category. It is almost impossible to be perceived as a balanced and appropriately aggressive lawyer.” (source)

“Does any of this sound familiar? The value given to ‘demure’ traits & how this conflicts w/ power? The hyper-focus on ‘personality’ to the exclusion of skill? The differential memory of small errors? The dichotomy between ‘nice woman’ and ‘dragon lady?’” (source)

“Yet, it is clear that Asians who do not conform with ‘China Doll’ submission stereotypes often encounter pushback. ‘I was never part of the in group,’ said an Asian American scientist. ‘I’m very candid and I do not hesitate to open my mouth, and that was probably not the submissive female […] I immediately started, I guess, having the reputation of being a ‘dragon lady.’” (source)

“Older stereotypes were that Chinese and Japanese were strange, dirty, tricky, crafty, and sly. Today, Asian women are sometimes seen as a ‘conniving, predatory force,’ triggering pre-model minority stereotypes of Asians. My own informal explorations of the topic suggest that the dragon lady stereotype could indicate that assertive Asian women are still seen as untrustworthy and conniving, mobilizing pre-model minority stereotypes.” (source)

Keep in mind, however, that all of this was talking specifically about adult Asian women, not children and adolescents. Nevertheless, it’s interesting how this overtly adult stereotype is projected onto Azula, such that people are still to this day surprised to find out that she’s Zuko’s younger sister and is only fourteen years old.

I would just like to take this moment to say…

[but-a-humble-goon]

It's sorta fucked up to me that people in the Bat fandom who don't know any better just attribute Cass' childhood abuse to Shiva, presumably either because they got all their knowledge from Young Justice or they have no clue who David Cain is and jumped to conclusions based on stereotype. Shiva's not exactly mom of the century, in fact she is a very not good person altogether. She abandoned Cass at birth and clearly does not view her as a daughter in the slightest. Whatever else you can say about her though, she is nothing like David Cain. He is a different brand of monster to her altogether and it's actually a pretty gross disservice to her character to treat her as such. I guess it took comics fans a long concerted effort to push back against writing Talia as an evil one dimensional bad mom/dragon lady and Shiva just doesn't have anywhere near that kind of pull.

[hotvintagepoll]

Propaganda

Anna May Wong (The Thief of Bagdad, Shanghai Express)—Wong was the first Chinese American movie star, arguably the first Asian woman to make it big in American films. Though the racism of the time often forced her into stereotypical roles, awarded Asian leading roles to white actors in yellowface, and prohibited on-screen romance between actors of different races, she delivered powerful and memorable performances. When Hollywood bigotry got to be too much, she made movies in Europe. Wong was intellectually curious, a fashion icon, and a strong advocate for authentic Asian representation in cinema. And, notably for the purposes of this tournament, absolutely gorgeous.

Josephine Baker (The Siren of the Tropics, ZouZou)— Josephine Baker was an American born actress, singer, and utter icon of the period, creating the 1920s banana skirt look. She was the first black woman to star in a major motion film. She fought in the French resistance in WWII, given a Legion of Honour, as well as refusing to perform in segregated theatres in the US. She was bisexual, a fighter, and overall an absolutely incredible woman as well as being extremely attractive.

This is round 6 of the tournament. All other polls in this bracket can be found here. Please reblog with further support of your beloved hot sexy vintage woman.

[additional propaganda submitted under the cut.]

Anna May Wong propaganda:

"She so so gorgeous!! Due to Hollywood racism she was pretty limited in the roles she got to play but even despite that she’s so captivating and deserves to be known as a leading lady in her own right!! When she’s on screen in Shanghai Express I can’t look away, which is saying something because Marlene Dietrich is also in that film."

"SHE IS ON THE BACK OF QUARTERS also she was very smart and able to speak multiple languages and is a fashion icon on top of the acting/singing"

"Paved the way for Asian American actresses AND TOTAL HOTTIE!!! She broke boundaries and made it her mission to smash stereotypes of Asian women in western film (at the time, they were either protrayed them as delicate and demure or scheming and evil). In 1951, she made history with her television show The Gallery of Madame Liu-Tsong, the first-ever U.S. television show starring an Asian-American series lead (paraphrased from Wikipedia). Also, never married and rumor has it that she had an affair with Marlene Dietrich. We love a Controversial Queen!"

"She's got that Silent Era smoulder™ that I think transcends the very stereotypical roles in which she was typically cast. Also looks very hot smouldering opposite Marlene Dietrich in "Shanghai Express"; there's kiss energy there."

"Hot as hell and chronically overlooked in her time, she's truly phenomenal and absolutely stunning"

"A story of stardom unavoidably marred by Hollywood racism; Wong's early-career hype was significantly derailed by the higher-up's reluctance to have an Asian lead, and things only got worse when the Hayes code came down and she suddenly *couldn't* be shown kissing a white man--even if that white man was in yellowface. After being shoved into the Dragon Lady role one too many times, she took her career to other continents for many years. Still, she came back to America eventually, being more selective in her roles, speaking out against Asian stereotypes, and in the midst of all of this finding the time to be awarded both the title of "World's Best Dressed Woman" by Mayfair Mannequin Society of New York and an honorary doctorate by Peking University."

"Incredible beauty, incredible actress, incredible story."

"-flapper fashion ICON. look up her fits please <3 -rumors of lesbianism due to her Close Friendships with marlene dietrich & cecil cunningham, among others -leveraged her star power to criticize the racist depictions of Chinese and Asian characters in Hollywood, as well as raise money and popular support for China & Chinese refugees in the 1930s and 40s. -face card REFUSED to decline"

Josephine Baker:

Black, American-born, French dancer and singer. Phenomenal sensation, took music-halls by storm. Famous in the silent film era.

Let's talk La Revue Negre, Shuffle Along. The iconique banana outfit? But also getting a Croix de Guerre and full military honors at burial in Paris due to working with the Resistance.

She exuded sex, was a beautiful dancer, vivacious, and her silliness and humor added to her attractiveness. She looked just as good in drag too.

So I know she was more famous for other stuff than movies and her movies weren’t Hollywood but my first exposure to her was in her films so I’ve always thought of her as a film actress first and foremost. Also she was the first black woman to star in a major motion picture so I think that warrants an entry

Iconic! Just look up anything about her life. She was a fascinating woman.

[sophiebaek]

Sophie is Korean!

Things to keep in mind

———

Yay! Sophie Baek is finally here and with all of excitement of this casting, I think it’s also important to bring attention to the new intersectionality that comes with the character of Sophie (specifically show Sophie).

Why should you take my words into account? Well, as an Asian woman in society today, I feel that I am qualified to speak on this topic since I’ve experienced all of this.

All of my words come from kind intentions, and I purely just want to communicate to the fandom how to approach Sophie being Asian in a respectful way.

Asia is a gigantic continent filled with various countries that have a multitude of cultures and ethnicities. While on the surface they all seem similar, they each have their own customs and traditions that have meaning within our culture. Do not combine them.

It’s important to remember that not every Asian person is Chinese, Japanese or Korean (East asian).

With Sophie being Korean, please do not generalize when writing about what you think you know about Korean culture.

You like Kpop and Kdrama? Great! BUT that does not define what Korean culture is and you shouldn't use that content as a reference.

When writing, be aware of explicit and unconscious biases you have about Asian people.

Asian stereotypes (Model Minority, Dragon Lady, Lotus blossom, etc) are very harmful and spread false narratives about us. Stereotypes eliminate the dimensions of who we are as Asians (South, South East, East, North, West).

Please, please, please do not fetishize. Especially since Bridgerton is a romance series it's extremely important to be mindful of the scenarios you put in your fics.

This also includes the White Savior Complex we see a lot in media!

If you’re writing about something specific, research it and fully understand the content you are putting into your work. Feel a little iffy about if you should put it in your fic? Probably don’t then. It’s that easy!

It's always great to ask someone who is a part of the community as well to see if what you're writing about is appropriate or potentially offensive in any way.

Describing Sophie is something new as well. Be mindful on how you describe her and other Asian characters.

Let me be clear: descriptions like 'slanted eyes' or 'yellow skin' are harmful

Here are some great resources that go into further detail about specific things! Rather than me paraphrasing their words it's best to link the direct source. Even as a part of this community, these articles were a reminder of how I must keep myself in check as well!

Describing Asian Eyes

Some important tips on making/writing Asian OCs

writing east asian characters

The Depiction of Asian Characters - Book Edition

The Dragon Lady, the Lotus Blossom, and the Robot: Archetypes of Asian Women in Western Media

To wrap this up, I want to be clear that I’m not a professional on this topic, but as someone who has been affected by harmful portrayals in media, I feel compelled to share my perspective. My hope is to spread awareness and encourage others to be mindful of how they approach these subjects, especially if they may not be fully informed. It’s about showing respect, doing the necessary research, and recognizing the impact our words and content can have on real people and cultures. By staying educated and considerate, we can be more aware and thoughtful in our actions.

[webshood]

Tanned East Asian out of spite

Ok, so I just want to get the general fandom consensus on what they think Jason's ethnicity is, because during DITF he though Lady Shiva was a viable option for his birth mom

[joeyclaire]

The Portal 2 Essay You Were Probably Expecting

Portal 2 is a queer, feminist, borderline misandrist masterpiece. The plot: two women destined to be enemies are forced to team up against a shared abuser.

We will start with queer interpretations, as there’s a bit less to say on that here. Chell is all but canonically a lesbian. She shows negative interest in men, she had a cut “relationship” with a character called her wife, and her relationship with GLaDOS is coded as romantic. There are quotes from the developers like, “...the twisted, dysfunctional romance that builds between the player’s game avatar and GLaDOS…” or “...a computerized voice falling out of love with a mute girl.” There’s not much to say on GLaDOS and Chell’s relationship that hasn’t already been said, so I’ll skip over that. All I will add is their development from destined enemies to begrudging allies to friends is an interesting commentary on how women are pitted against each other and still can still form bonds of female solidarity. 

GLaDOS can easily be read as a transgender woman. While there is little to nothing to suggest that Caroline is trans, there’s nothing saying she isn’t, so for the sake of argument we will say she can be. She is forcibly placed into a body made for a man (“She’ll argue. She’ll say she can’t. She’s modest like that. But you make her.”) which she makes her own, despite the scientists’ attempts to stop her. When Wheatley wants to weaken her, he forces her into a phallic form (we’ll get more into that later). After this, GLaDOS spends the rest of the game fighting to get her body back. Altogether, her arc is about reclaiming the body for yourself and autonomy. It is not difficult for this to be interpreted as a transgender narrative. 

Cave Johnson is openly misogynistic, even though it doesn’t come up very often. He comments about how the lab boys “wouldn’t recognize the thrill of danger if it walked up and snapped their little pink bras,” equating femininity with weakness, and assumes the player he’s speaking to must be a man, calling them “handsome devil” and “son.” It is worth mentioning that Cave Johnson’s name is a sexual reference itself- caves are yonic, johnson is a slang term for penis. Not only this, the portals are yonic, Wheatley in GLaDOS’s body is phallic, potato GLaDOS is phallic, GLaDOS decommissioned in the first game resembles a woman in bondage hanging upside down. 

In Cave and Caroline’s portrait, she stands behind him- “Behind every successful man, there stands a woman.” Portal repeatedly associates femininity with strength and masculinity with weakness. When Wheatley wants to weaken GLaDOS and make her feel powerless, he forces her into a phallic form and places himself in her- a woman’s- body. The female characters are intelligent and powerful, the male characters are defined by their ignorance and, while they are handed power, have no idea what to do with it. The functional turrets have female voices, the defective ones have male voices. The masculine is weak, the feminine is strong.

Chell’s model is Japanese-Brazilian in heritage, so she is Asian and Latina. Asian female characters in action and science fiction historically have been heavily sexualized, there’s even multiple terms for the stereotypes. There’s the Lotus Blossom, who is feminine, obedient, waiting for the male hero to come save her, and the Dragon Lady, who is ruthless, cruel, and sexually domineering. Chell is none of these things. She is brave, confident, strong, and “never gives up, ever.” Chell is unsexualized by the game (she is, however, sexualized by Wheatley. We’ll get to that). She is obviously a very beautiful woman, but we almost never see her face. She wears a tank top but it’s analogous to “rolling up her sleeves.”

This same oversexualization is true for Latina women, and there are even other Latina stereotypes Chell inverts. There is a stereotype of Latinas as fiery, overdramatic, and aggressive, called the “Spicy Latina” character. Chell has been described by a developer as constantly angry, this being the reason for her silence throughout the games- she is so mad at the robots she doesn’t want to reward them with her speech- however, Chell’s anger is consistently justified and rewarded by the narrative. She is never portrayed as anything other than rational, and never as overdramatic.

Wheatley’s entire purpose is to stand as a symbol of white male mediocrity, granted positions of power and privilege despite being insanely underqualified. He positions himself as Chell’s love interest and white savior, leaning into sci-fi and action tropes and thinking of himself as the protagonist. The first thing he does when he meets her is comment on her appearance. He takes credit for all her achievements, goes insane with power the moment he gets a taste of it and takes a particular glee in exerting it over GLaDOS and Chell- you know, two women, one of whom is of color, and forces Chell to perform metaphorically sexual acts. Wheatley fancies himself the Adam to Chell’s Eve. They’re the last man and woman on earth, and he tries to get her to say “apple.” (“Let there be light! That’s, uh, God. I was quoting God,” he comments later.)

Which leads into another point- testing is sexual. This one is pretty obvious. Wheatley moans loudly every time a test is completed, GLaDOS calls it a “built in euphoric response,” it is portrayed as voyueristic repeatedly (“You’re gonna test, and I’m gonna watch. And everything is gonna be just fine.”) Wheatley forces Chell into a submissive and weak role in chapter seven despite her strength, and views her as only good for a sex act. Smashing monitors in Wheatley’s Aperture is to destroying cameras in GLaDOS’- reclaiming privacy and therefore agency. 

On the subjects of the cores, Fact core can be interpreted as symbolic of “mansplaining,” Adventure core is explicitly sexist, objectifying Chell, telling her to step out of the way and let the men handle it, all why she does all the work herself. It’s not even subtle. He tells her to take a “lady break,” for god’s sake. 

More details before we conclude- GLaDOS believes Chell is more likely to accept criticism from a woman than a man (“Oh, it’s a she.”), GLaDOS’s dialogue in the first game is pink and Wheatley’s is blue, Aperture has a “self-esteem fund for girls,” where girls can donate their vital organs to be thinner, Wheatley assumes the person who defeated GLaDOS was a he, GLaDOS repeatedly targets Chell’s appearance when insulting her (something she probably wouldn’t do for a man), a poster shows a woman as the dumb human and a masculine robot as the smarter, harder worker, and better alternative. Chell defeats Wheatley by the power of the moon, consistently framed as feminine through history and many cultures.

Overall, Portal 2 has heavy themes of intersectional feminism and to a lesser extent, queerness, throughout, that I find not nearly talked about enough. It inverts female, LGBT, and racial stereotypes, destroys patriarchal values and gender roles, and challenges portrayals of women in media in general. Portal 2’s fascinating gender politics and contribution to representation and diversity in video games is a conversation that needs much more attention.

[rarepairqueenmochi]

Monster High and East Asian Representation

Alright MH fans, we need to have a semi-serious conversation about how East Asian rep has been handled in the franchise. Representation itself has been a big point of conversation in the community, so it's important to talk about all of its aspects. The good, the bad, and the ill-conceived.

For context, I am an East Asian-American who has seen time and time again her culture be misrepresented, boiled down to stereotypes, and even mocked by other Asian cultures. Am I the all-time expert? Absolutely not, which is why I encourage other East Asian/Asian-American fans to give their comments about the franchise's handling of Asian characters.

Now then, we'll start with G1 since it probably has some of the most infamous pieces of representation

There is a lot to unpack with G1 Jinafire's design and personality. Not only the choice of golden skin, the misguided outfit choices, and emphasis on honor and discipline, but also the oriental riff often accompanying her in every backing scene. Highly encourage people to look into the Asian Dragon Lady stereotype, because unfortunately, that is what Jinafire is.

It is acknowledgeable that Jinafire's voice actress, Stephanie Sheh, is also Chinese, but there is still error with her character as a whole. Jinafire was personally one of the first Asian characters in media that I was introduced too, so it's upsetting to reflect on how negative her character design is.

Shibooya is... not great. The exchange program as a whole feels like a minefield of issues (though I don't have much liberty to discuss the other transfers), and this one especially rubbed me the wrong way. They gave the vampires of Shibooya yellow skin, and the doll is supposed to kimono-inspired while hardly even resembling one.

Harajuku style was right there and easily fit the fashions of Monster High. There are also a number of Japanese yokai that could've been featured within the short and would have likely been better representation than the vampires.

Kiyomi is okay, and certainly an improvement compared to the previous G1 characters. She's based off the Noppera-bo, aka the faceless ghost, and it's used decently in her design. However, her personality is boiled down into being shy, quiet, and reserved, which is a stereotype many Asian girls face under the name "Lotus Blossoms". She even has blossoms on her dress sleeves, and her outfit again is a loose interpretation of a kimono.

There are a number of modern Japanese outfit designs that could be used, and kimonos are often associated with modesty and respect. Kimonos are not meant to be revealing in any way, covering the body in full and being intricately wrapped. I personally take issue with the designers noting her chains meaning to resemble the sailor collar, which is used in middle school uniforms, not high school uniforms.

Kiyomi is, of course, hardly mentioned and refined to a movie role, in which she copies and mimics the personality/style of an European character.

Now onto G3!

Honestly, nothing really to critique here! Draculaura's been canonically been confirmed to be at least half-Taiwanese and speaks Mandarin. Now would it be nicer to get more appearances of her culture other than a couple throw-away lines? Yes it would, but there isn't anything really negative about this portrayal. I think it'd be interesting if Draculaura had a Taiwanese name she went by around her mother, or just casual moments of her eating scallion pancakes or aiyu jelly.

aaaaaand here's where we automatically fall back on representation. This may not seem that major to people, but considering this is the first Japanese character we get in G3, it's not great. Points for the writers looking past the most common yokai, but I don't know any person that wants to be represented by an animal.

I really do need people to realize how this is compared to the other characters. I wasn't initially reactive to Kuma's introduction until I realized they were making him a consistent character. Considering we don't have many other anthro/fully monstrous characters, and they chose to make him the Japanese representation doesn't seem right. Especially since they gave him the lead in the cultural appropriation vs. appreciation episode. An excellent episode, but it loses some sentiment coming from a literal bear.

Plus I would implore you all to rewatch Horrorscare and take a close look at the Japanese water dragon Pearl. And I'll remind you she exists in the same world as Jinafire.

now this is what I'm talking about! Not only has the skin issue been resolved, but the creators took a step in the right direction and made Jinafire more akin to Chinese dragons, who are often connected to storms and rain. Her outfit is also much more akin to street fashion in China. I still wish there was more to see with Jinafire's character, but she absolutely an improvement to her G1 iteration!

Well that's a lot to unpack there! Again, I am in no way the expert on East Asian representation and I'm going to miss some things. I encourage other fans to think about these characters and how you feel about them, and maybe even point out things I missed, good or bad! I did this simply out of my own feelings and wanted to see if anyone else felt the same.

[cologona]

The person with the most stunted growth in the bat clan has got to be Cassandra. She spent 9 years homeless on the streets, during which she likely had to learn how money worked and what was okay to eat all on her own. Seeing as how Cain was willing to shoot Cass enough times that she no longer flinched, I really think his focus was far more on developing her skill than keeping her in peak health condition. David Cain is the kind of fucked up where he’d put Cass through “hunger resistance training” but also always have breakfast lunch and dinner prepared for her otherwise. I don’t think she’d see food she couldn’t eat until she left him.

Anyways, the tallest Cassandra I can accept is 5’3”. The tallest.

[dykesynthezoid]

On the one hand I’m like fundamentally aware that Kim Da Eun is a pretty blatant example of the dragon lady stereotype used against Asian women, and on the other hand I have an instinct to support evil women Always. It’s rough. She has a backstory and a motivation outside of the white men in her life 2 ME ok

[madcapberry]

One sec I need to talk about Shiva.

Lady Shiva was introduced in Richard Dragon: Kung Fu Fighter in the 70s. She was a traveling martial artist hellbent on getting revenge for her sister, who she believed had been killed by Richard Dragon. She lured Dragon into a trap, revealed herself as Carolyn's sister, and tried to fight him to the death. Once she realized that Dragon had nothing to do with it, that Cravat and The Swiss (unimportant villain characters, they killed Carolyn) had been the ones to kill her sister, she helped Dragon defeat the villain (by giving him her shiny belt so he could redirect the beam of a deadly laser that was being pointed at them while they were fighting, don’t even ask) and Richard Dragon and Lady Shiva became allies, friends even. Dragon convinced her it would be a waste to kill Cravat and told her that he had killed the Swiss himself. She accepted this. They shook hands. This all took place over the course of one issue of Richard Dragon: Kung Fu Fighter. It took ONE issue for Shiva to go from antagonist to ally. She then tagged along with Richard because she liked the adventures he got up to, the danger, the challenge, and the thrill of it. Richard even called her later on when he needed help on a different adventure. What I’m saying is she didn’t start out as evil.

Okay, so what do we know about Shiva so far? She’s a thrill-seeking peripatetic martial artist of great capacity and skill. She cared about her sister. She’s willing to kill. She’s an adventurer and a valuable ally. Great. Moving on.

The Question 1987 features THE Lady Shiva. A character capable of both ruthlessness and mercy, cruelty and tenderness. A curious, thrill-seeking, teasing character. She was vicious and nonpartisan and she was working as a mercenary for hire. But she was an ally, even when she was beating the shit out of Vic. She loved the O Sensei. You can tell she even cared about Vic in her way. I’m not saying she had a heart of gold, or that there weren’t tropes she fell into. She wasn’t and there were. But she was a fairly well-rounded, morally gray character that played a key role wherever she showed up. She was closer to a non-traditional anti-hero than anything else. Idfk, just go read The Question.

I read a tvtropes article describing Lady Shiva as “an archetypical Dragon Lady, complete with sinister motivations and exotic sex appeal,” which… she isn’t. She subverted this trope in several ways actually. She never had “sinister motivations” until Chuck Dixon got his grubby little hands on her. Her motivations were pretty neutral. She had her own set of principles, she was very morally gray. She wanted to travel and fight worthy opponents on her adventures for the thrill of it. She seemed to operate mostly on personal whims, and on the basis of building worthy rivals, out of love for the art of combat. And she didn’t use her sex appeal for shit (until the Richard Dragon reboot comic kms), she didn’t tolerate sexual advances or objectification. She just WAS NOT a conniving temptress, I don't understand where this misperception came from (but I do blame Dixon, I’ll get to that in a sec).

This same article states that she began as the arch-nemesis of Richard Dragon? Unless you’re accepting the version of the two of them from the very short lived Richard Dragon 2004 series as their canonical relationship then NO she didn’t. But I digress.

There was a marked change in the way Lady Shiva was written by the time Robin (1991) came out, this is where her character starts to lean towards the Dragon Lady trope imo. She also weirdly, and maybe arguably, leans more into traditional femininity while at the same time being written as more wild and uncontrollable. Chuck Dixon seemed to fundamentally misunderstand Lady Shiva as a character. He turned her (sometimes ironic) disdain for brutes who wouldn’t last a second in a fight with her into stereotypical womanly haughtiness. He turned her capacity for ruthlessness into bloodlust. And he made her into a conniving, somewhat deranged, villainous woman, tempting our young hero towards evil (oh my!). Again, I’m not saying she ever had a heart of gold, but Dixon changed core character traits (namely her respect for other people's personal code) to turn her into a villain.

“Kill him, little bird. Kill him and become a predator…Aren’t you my weapon? My instrument of death? Say you are mine.” Like?? She would not fucking say that, respectfully.

That isn’t even to mention Richard Dragon (2004) where Dixon turned Shiva’s relationship with Dragon into a resentful, sexually charged dick-measuring contest.

Even so, I don’t entirely hate Shiva as a villain, especially in Batgirl (2000). Pucketts Shiva is a bit less egregious imo. So she’s a passively suicidal evil mentor-figure who wants Cass to be a killer like her. Whatever, I can get on board with that I guess. I can enjoy it because I love Cass and this is a great comic run. But the retcon that–Listen, THE RETCON THAT IS SHIVA’S SISTER BEING KILLED BY DAVID CAIN, SHIVA DESCRIBING THIS AS FREEING, SAYING SHE’S GRATEFUL, THEN AGREEING TO GET PREGNANT WITH HIS CHILD IN RETURN?? This boils my blood. Shiva, who was introduced as somebody who cared about getting revenge for her dead sister. Shiva, for whom freedom and autonomy were core character traits. That Shiva?? That Shiva is relieved her sister is dead and is willing to carry her sister's killer's child to term?? What the fuck?

I hate it. I don’t understand it. Why would you take a complex character who makes it difficult to tell who she really cares about, and flatten them into somebody incapable of love?

Okay I’m done, this is getting too long and I don’t even want to get started on New 52 era Shiva. I don’t have a conclusion, I’m just annoyed. Thanks for reading. The Question (1987) is NOT a perfect comic but if you’re interested in Shiva please please please check it out, it’s very moody and philosophical, noir-esque. Also Chuck Dixon suck my dick.