#do I think vader was redeemed? no

[secondstar-acorn]

hey besties we aren’t talking about Luke’s pain and trauma enough

[benevolentvampire]

there's that specific brand of villain that's like - you're only a villain because you gave into your deepest fears and allowed them to control you, and now you've gone way too far to ever be truly redeemed.

like, they are beyond a shadow of a doubt a villain and should be seen as such, but there's still a certain tragedy to it, y'know? that tragedy of like "damn, you would've been a decent person if you'd just had some therapy, but now look at you"

[david-talks-sw]

Debunking myths in the GFFA: Luke Skywalker isn't the One True Jedi™ and doesn't "reject the Jedi teachings."

The myth:

Luke's Jedi mentors - trained to be dispassionate and mission-driven - callously tell him to let his friends die in service of a greater cause.

"In The Empire Strikes Back, Luke becomes Yoda's Padawan, and there are echoes of Anakin's training and the dilemmas he faced. Like Anakin, Luke is told he is too old to begin the training. Like Anakin, he has a vision of his loved ones suffering in captivity, and receives cold advice from Yoda, who tells him to sacrifice Han and Leia if he honors what they fight for." - Jason Fry, “Family Tradition; Rejecting the Jedi Teachings” Star Wars Insider #130, 2012

The intended narrative:

The Jedi are actually right on all points. Luke isn't ready or fully trained and he's arrogantly letting his emotions rule him and rushing into danger. By ignoring them, Luke gets himself into a spot of trouble that actually jeopardizes the lives of the very friends he tried to help, as they now need to rescue him.

“It’s pivotal that Luke doesn’t have patience. He doesn’t want to finish his training. He’s being succumbed by his emotional feelings for his friends rather than the practical feelings of “I’ve got to get this job done before I can actually save them. I can’t save them, really.” But he sort of takes the easy route, the arrogant route, the emotional but least practical route, which is to say, “I’m just going to go off and do this without thinking too much.” And the result is that he fails and doesn’t do well for Han Solo or himself.”

“Luke is making a critical mistake in his life of going after- to try to save his friends when he’s not ready. There’s a lot being taught here about patience and about waiting for the right moment to do whatever you’re going to do.”

“Luke is in the process of going into an extremely dangerous situation out of his compassion— Without the proper training, without the proper thought, without the proper foresight to figure out how he’s gonna get out of it. His impulses are right, but his methodology is wrong.”

The myth:

The Jedi want Luke to repress his feelings and kill his father, to destroy the Sith, their religious enemies. As emotionally-detached Jedi, it is inconceivable that a Sith would come back from the Dark Side, and thus wrongly believe that the only solution is to kill Vader.

"It's easy to miss that Luke disagrees sharply with his Jedi teachers about what to do. Obi-Wan and Yoda have trained Luke and push him toward a second confrontation with Vader. He is, they believe, the Jedi weapon that will destroy both Vader and the Emperor. When Luke insists there is still good in Vader, Obi-Wan retorts that "he's more machine than man-twisted and evil." When Luke says he can't kill his own father, Obi-Wan despairs, "Then the Emperor has already won."  But Obi-Wan could not be more wrong. It is precisely because Luke can't kill his own father that he defeats the Sith." - Jason Fry, Star Wars Insider #130, 2012

The intended narrative:

The Jedi never tell Luke to "kill" his father. That's just a fact.

They tell him to "confront" and "face" him.

Their bottom line is that Vader and the Emperor need to be stopped.

If Luke can manage to do so without killing his father, that's great.

"In Jedi the film is really about the redemption of this fallen angel. Ben is the fitting good angel, and Vader is the bad angel who started off good. All these years Ben has been waiting for Luke to come of age so that he can become a Jedi and redeem his father. That's what Ben has been doing, but you don't know this in the first film." - Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays, 1998

(credit to @writerbuddha for finding the above quote)

The problem is: Darth Vader has a track record of murdering loved ones who refuse to kill him. Be it his wife...

... his father/brother...

... and if you're going by Canon, his little sister.

As such, there's a very strong chance that Vader might do the same to his son as well.

“A Jedi can’t kill for the sake of killing. The mission isn’t for Luke to go out and kill his father and get rid of him. The issue is, if he confronts his father again, he may, in defending himself, have to kill him, because his father will try to kill him.” - 1981 story conference, from The Making of Return of the Jedi

Now, as the last Jedi left, the fate of the galaxy rests entirely on Luke's shoulders.

If he dies, then the galaxy and its billions of inhabitants are doomed to live in a tyrannical dictatorship forever.

“He knows a confrontation is brewing between Luke and his father. Ben hopes Luke will either save his father or kill him, because whatever extra powers Luke's got in his lineage, he is the one person that can probably fight his father and win.” - The Star Wars Archives: 1977-1983, 2018

There's a time for talking things through... and a time to do your duty. Above all else, a Jedi's duty is to end conflict.

Obi-Wan was once tasked with this same duty.

And while he managed to weaken Vader considerably (thus avoiding the catastrophe of a full-powered Vader being unleashed onto the galaxy)... because of his attachment, he failed to kill Vader.

Twice, if you include the Kenobi show.

(A show which, per Pablo Hidalgo, is one of George Lucas' favorite recent Star Wars projects, a tidbit that doesn't surprise me one bit considering how much the series perfectly aligns with what Lucas said about Star Wars (see here, here and here))

Point being: because Ben failed his duty, the galaxy suffered for it.

Luke is now in danger of doing the same.

If he's unable to end the conflict in a peaceful way, then Luke needs to be ready to do so in a more permanent manner. Because while Luke has qualms about killing his father, there's a very big chance that the feeling won't be mutual.

So Luke isn't rejecting his teachers' orders to kill Vader. He's saying he's unable to confront Vader altogether, because he'll be half-assing the task. In the (very likely) worst case scenario where reasoning with Vader fails, Luke is concerned he won't be able to follow-through and do what he must.

Further, there's also a worse outcome to Luke dying: Luke joining the Dark Side and becoming yet another asset of the Emperor, more dangerous than Vader himself.

It's thus essential that Luke steel himself and mask his emotions, because the Emperor is a master manipulator who'll likely attempt to corrupt Luke via the strong emotions he has for his friends.

Obi-Wan is not telling Luke to repress his emotions. On the contrary, he acknowledges that these feelings do Luke credit. But the fact remains that when your opponent can jiu-jitsu those feelings against you and your friends, you need to keep a poker face.

And judging by how close the Sith Lords come to seducing Luke to the Dark Side...

... that advice is completely on point.

The myth:

"It isn't Jedi teachings that save the galaxy, but bonds the Jedi tried to forbid - such as the love of a father for his son, and a son for his father. Emotional attachments, in other words." - Jason Fry, Star Wars Insider #130, 2012

The intended narrative:

In Return of the Jedi, Luke isn't doing anything different than what other Jedi have done.

He does his best to avoid lethal force unless he deems that it is necessary (see his fight against Jabba's hostile forces).

He sacrifices himself for the greater good and let himself be captured, in order to allow the mission to be carried out.

He tries to reason with his enemy, hoping to avoid conflict.

He spares his enemy, showing mercy.

That's all standard Jedi stuff. We've seen other Jedi do all those things, both in the films and The Clone Wars.

If that isn't enough, just look at how Lucas describes what Jedi normally do (left), versus what Luke does in Return of the Jedi (right):

See what I mean? There’s pretty much no difference.

In Lucas' narrative, Luke isn’t “better than” or “rejecting the teachings” of the Jedi who came before him. He’s following the Jedi path. And he's really good at doing so.

Because this idea that Luke "rejects the teachings" makes no sense! They're Lucas' teachings. He agrees with the Jedi, they're the mouthpieces he uses to deliver the audience his own values.

Lucas having his main character do something he'd ideologically disagree with is something that doesn't make sense.

And part of this confusion comes from a misunderstanding of the word "attachment", in Star Wars.

It doesn't mean "emotional attachments" or "feelings" or "affection." It comes from the Buddhist principle of non-attachment.

It's not about depriving yourself of relationships or affection, it's about accepting that everything comes and goes and letting go of those very things you hold on to, when the time comes.

Lucas makes a distinction in his discourse between attachment and compassion.

"The whole idea of the movie, ultimately is that you have the Light Side and the Dark Side. The Light Side is compassion, which means you care about other people. The Dark Side is you care only about yourself. And you are obsessed with yourself. Getting your pleasure and getting all your stuff. The other one, you give it to everybody. You give goodness and health to everybody else.  So the issue of love... there’s a line between loving somebody compassionately and caring about them and helping them. But the other line is not to be greedy or... once you are greedy then you get fearful. You don’t want to lose what it is you have that you are getting. So you have to learn to give up everything. And ultimately for a Jedi Knight, it’s very easy to give up." - Celebration V, Main Event, 2010

In-universe, this is something Anakin knew the theory of, but never really applied all that much.

Luke on the other hand, was able to learn the lesson and apply it.

Speaking in Lucas lingo, it's not Luke's attachment that makes him spare Vader. It's his compassion. And in turn, that compassion inspires Vader to do the same.

"It really has to do with learning. Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can’t be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he’s caused. He doesn’t right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, ‘I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I have grown to love - primarily the Emperor - and throw away my life, to save this person. And I’m doing this because he has faith in me, loves me despite all the horrible things I’ve done. I broke his mother’s heart, but he still cares about me, and I can’t let that die.’" - The Making of Revenge of The Sith; page 221

Or, to put things more simply:

Attachment (selfish love), is what makes Anakin do this:

Compassion (selfless love), is what makes Luke do this:

Now, could Lucas have made his narrative more explicit, to avoid confusion? Maybe.

But I think it's also fair to point the finger at the biggest cause of these muddied waters:

Simply put, the Expanded Universe (the Star Wars books, novels and games that spun out of the films) established new lore elements that didn't necessarily align with Lucas' vision of things. Namely:

Jedi can get married, and Luke marries Mara Jade.

Jedi can begin their training as adults, and Luke takes on many apprentices that are already adults.

When considering George's minimal involvement in the development of EU stories, it's easy to see why these plot points were allowed to come through.

But when he made the Prequels, his headcanons came to light and the above plot points needed to be retconned.

George Lucas' narrative:

"Nope. You can't be a Jedi and be married."

This isn't actually coming out of left field.

When Timothy Zahn asked for Luke and Mara to be married or engaged, back in 1993, Lucasfilm initially vetoed the idea.

And over the years, Lucas and other Lucasfilm employees have made it it clear that "Luke getting married" did not align with his vision (so much so that it's a plot point in Attack of the Clones).

So the question becomes: why can't Jedi get married?

It's about commitment.

Simply put: you can't have two marriages. Eventually, your commitment to one of them will falter and you'll ruin them both. A Jedi is already married to the cause and to the Order.

If they want to get married, they have to leave the Jedi.

"One of the things [the Jedi] give up is marriage. They can still love people. But they can’t possess them. They can’t own them. They can’t demand that they do things. They have to be able to accept the fact, one, their mortality, that they are going to die. And not worry about it. That the loved ones they have, everything they love is going to die and they can’t do anything about it. I mean they can protect them as you would ordinarily protect, you know, ‘Get out of the way of that car.’ Somebody charges you with a gun, you knock the gun out, but there is an inevitability to life which is death and you have to accept that." - Celebration V, Main Event, 2010

And this is another example, really, of how Lucas' own values and past experiences shape the Jedi's teachings.

Marcia Lucas divorced George because he was constantly working on Star Wars, even when he wasn't directing it, which she said led to an emotional blockage in their marriage...

... and this leads us to the reason why George didn't double-down on the success of the Original Trilogy: he decided to take time off to raise his three kids as a single Dad.

He learned his lesson, reasoned that he wouldn't be able to be both a good, present father and a successful blockbuster film director.

When you're dealing with time-consuming commitments of this scale, you need to make a choice, or you'll end up (half-assing and thus ruining) both of them.

"Nope. Jedi get taken in as babies for a reason."

Once again, this has to do with Lucas' definition of "attachment."

"Jedi Knights get taken from their families very young. They do not grow attachments, because attachment is a path to the Dark Side. You can love people, but you can't want to possess them. They're not yours. Accept that they have a fate. Even those you love most are going to die. You can't do anything about that. Protect them with your lightsaber, but if they die they were going to die. There's nothing you can do. All you can do is accept that fact. In mythology, if you go to Hades to get them back, you're not doing it for them, you're doing it for yourself. You're doing it because you don't want to give them up. You're afraid to be without them. The key to the Dark Side is fear. You must be clean of fear, and fear of loss is the greatest fear. If you're set up for fear of loss, you will do anything to keep that loss from happening, and you're going to end up in the Dark Side. That's the basic premise of Star Wars and the Jedi, and how it works. That's why they're taken at a young age to be trained. They cannot get themselves killed trying to save their best buddy when it's a hopeless exercise." - The Star Wars Archives: 1977-1983, 2018

Jedi need to maintain objectivity and neutrality, in their day-to-day lives of mediating peace between planets.

And learning to "let go of your attachments when the time comes" is part of that training. But it is something that takes discipline and time, and thus the child needs to be young enough to develop this skill. Otherwise, they end up like Anakin, who always struggled to properly learn it and eventually was doomed by his greed.

This being part of Lucas narrative is also evidenced that in his earlier plans for the Sequel trilogy, he'd have Luke train children, not adults like he does in the EU.

"Luke is trying to restart the Jedi. He puts the word out, so out of 100,000 Jedi, maybe 50 or 100 are left. The Jedi have to grow again from scratch, so Luke has to find two- and three-year-olds, and train them. It’ll be 20 years before you have a new generation of Jedi." The Star Wars Archives: 1999-2005, 2020

The EU's retcons of Lucas' narrative:

Now, obviously, the addition of all these rules and other elements such as midi-chlorians... it does something to the older audience. They grew up on the Original Trilogy, dreaming they could be a Jedi too if they just believed enough. Now that bubble is burst.

"Wait, if I'm a Jedi I can't get married?! And I need to be taken in as a toddler, with a certain kind of blood score?! That's bullshit!"

More importantly... it goes against about a decade's worth of established EU lore (which Lucas never factored into his storytelling)!

So what does Lucasfilm Licensing do? They go with it.

They take these "weird" rules the older audience and authors don't like, and retcon a new narrative around them to ensure both the books and the new films all stay canon within the EU own continuity.

George Lucas revealed new information about his universe in Episode II that ran counter to earlier stories of the Expanded Universe. Among the surprises: the Jedi Order is monastic, with love and marriage forbidden to its members. This would necessitate reforms to the Jedi Code over time to separate the ancient era when Nomi Sunrider was married to a Jedi, seen in the Tales of the Jedi (1993–94) comics, as well as the post-Empire era when Luke Skywalker married Mara Jade in the comic series Union (1999–2000). LucasBooks also needed to create plausible exceptions for Ki-Adi-Mundi, a Jedi Master who had multiple wives in the Prelude to Rebellion comics (1999). - Pablo Hidalgo, The Essential Reader’s Companion, 2012

When it comes to Luke specifically, the narrative becomes:

"Uh... y-yes. The old Jedi Order forbid marriage, only took in toddlers and had a blood pre-requisite... which was weird, wrong, too detached, too systemic, and part of why their Order failed! But, uh, Luke's New Jedi Order allows marriage, unlike his dogmatic predecessors, because anyone can be a Jedi guys!" Hahaha! (fuck's sake George)

But as already explained above: those new rules aren't meant to be perceived negatively. It would make no sense if they were, they're based on Lucas' own values.

You know what it does do, though?

It cements the narrative that Luke is the One True Jedi™, who rejected the dogmatic teachings to forge a new path forward.

That's not the intended narrative of the Original Trilogy, nor the six-film saga as a whole.

If you've made it this far in the post (congratulations) and are interested to read another all-encompassing post about that, you can check out the link below :)

[kerosene-in-a-blender]

Something I think fandom as a whole could benefit from is viewing narrative redemption as an action a character takes rather than as a reward they earn. There's a tendency in fandom to look at how much harm a character has done and how much suffering they have endured and to use these metrics to try and figure out whether a character's suffering is enough for them to have "earned" their redemption. Sometimes this results in fandom clamouring for a redemption arc for a character that has absolutely no interest in doing better (Moc Weepe Midst, Ludinus Da'Leth Critical Role in some circles) and sometimes it results in resentment when a character who is not deemed to have suffered enough is narratively redeemed (Jonas Spahr Midst, Essek Thelyss Critical Role), even as they've chosen to do better and are actively trying to do good in the worlds they live in.

But it's the choice to do better, the choice to be good, that makes a narrative redemption satisfying. A character being given infinite chances and being dragged kicking and screaming into a redemption they don't want because they've suffered in a way another character or the audience is sympathetic to is always less satisfying than a character making a choice to change and do good (compare Kylo Ren Star Wars to Darth Vader Star Wars). Because narrative redemption is an action to be taken, not a thing to be given.

[marvelstars]

I really love Luke as a character but sometimes I don´t like how fandom pictures him as this little flower who would not hurt a fly and always tries to seek peaceful solutions to conflicts, like I get it because I don´t shut up about his part in redeeming his father on ROTJ either but people forget he almost killed his Dad before he did it.

Luke isn´t just a sweet little fellow who would his risk his life for friends and family to the last consequence. Luke isn´t just loyal to fault, he also is a soldier and if he needs to take a life because he is fighthing a War he will do it, no questions asked but he also won´t hold it agaisn´t his opponents if they do the same with him because again, it´s a war.

Another thing I love about Luke is that he truly doesn´t care much about authority, he is concious of it and has not trouble doing what his uncle tells him to do or the rebellion leadership tells him or to seek Yoda and Obi-Wan´s counsel when he has doubts but he also gives his own mind and in the end defines his decisions acording to what he personally believes it´s better acording to his personal philosophy, so he asks the rebellion for permission to train as a Jedi and leaves with or without permission, adds his own little mission on ROTJ to take Darth Vader out of the second Death Star before they blow it up and also tells Yoda and ObiWan in no uncertain terms that he wasn´t going to kill his father.

So in short Luke is this

But he is also this

It makes sense and I love that for him.

PD: Shadows of the Empire is from Legends but pictures Luke so perfectly that I wanted to add it.

There is an episode in which Luke and Leia are trying to fight off Black Sun because some of their operatives have been working with the rebellion but also betraying them, Prince Xizor was playing off the Empire and the Rebellion hoping they destroyed each other. So Leia gets into Prince Xizor Castle to spy on him but he captures her using a mind control pheromone so Luke decides to go with Lando, get Leia out and destroy Xizor´s castle while he is at it.

At the same time, Dath Vader was chilling in his own Palace on Coruscant, he was thinking about how to solve the lastest test of Palpatine in which he has to defeat Xizor ´s criminal organization that was growing too powerful within the empire but without his master having to notice it because currently he is an ally of Xizor and Xizor believes he can take Vader´s place alongside Palpatine.

So Vader is chilling and thinking about an elabore strategy worthy of Games of Thrones or the Padrino when his child out of nowhere makes Prince Xizor Palace explode. This act gives a reason for Vader to destroy the rest of his organization because Xizor was also partially working with the rebels.

There´s not need to say Vader was totally heart eyes for his kid after this. Like that´s his boy, look at him go. Also Xizor messed with his Kid, he is going to lose everything, Xizor is actually lucky he didn´t know Leia was also his kid imo. Those Skywalkers :)

[antianakin]

"You can't tell me Vader isn't redeemed at the end when he regains his autonomy to save his son."

Ho boy, YES I CAN!

You know why? Because multiple ENTIRE CULTURES are still eradicated.

There are a HANDFUL of Jedi left alive when Anakin dies. Out of THOUSANDS. Think about that one again. Literally only a few that we can confirm are actually alive when Anakin kicks the bucket (Luke, Ahsoka, probably Ezra). Most of the rest were killed during Order 66 (a LARGE number of which Anakin was directly responsible for killing) or were hunted down BY ANAKIN in the last 20-odd years. Or were turned into Inquisitors that Anakin personally tortured for years, forcing them to live among the frozen remains of the Jedi just for extra shits and giggles, until all of them were killed off, too.

There are TWO clones we can confirm are left alive when Anakin dies, out of MILLIONS. Two. I'm counting this one as a second genocide that Anakin helps commit during Order 66 since that's effectively what it ends up meaning for the clones.

And this doesn't count the number of planets we know were devastated by the Empire that Anakin helped put into place and keep in power like Lothal, Ryloth, and Mandalore.

So you know what? No. I don't honestly give a shit that he saved one person that is related to him in the end. I don't care that it meant he had to make a personal sacrifice to do it. I don't care that he had to finally grow a fucking spine in order to kill Palpatine. There is nothing Anakin can do here that will EVER redeem him for the lifetime of absolute atrocities he has committed. There is no sacrifice Anakin can make that wipe out the oceans of blood he lives in.

The Jedi are still dead. The clones are still dead. Mandalore is still glassed. Ryloth and Lothal will take generations to recover from the decades of war and oppression they've lived through. Anakin's death means NOTHING because the people he's ACTUALLY hurt with his actions aren't the reason he decides to kill Palpatine. He can't kill Palpatine in order to save people he doesn't know, or because it's the right thing to do, or to provide the tiniest bit of justice to everyone he's hurt. He does it specifically to save someone he already loves and considers family.

There's no redemption in that for everything he's done. How could there be? Everything he's done is completely irredeemable to begin with.

[maidenvault]

RotJ makes a point of letting us know that Leia is Luke's sister, they've known this on some level for a long time, and he probably cares more about her than anyone in the world because this gives so much more weight to his conflict at the end of the movie, and I think this is a huge thing people overlook when they argue that him redeeming his father represents a rejection of the old Jedi ways of non-attachment. Because in the moment he has to let go of Leia and his friends to be able to actually save Anakin.

When Obi-Wan tries to convince Luke that he has to kill Vader and there's no other way, he doesn’t really discuss it as an issue of Luke having an attachment to him. I think he knows this isn't really the Jedi way but just like in the previous war, they don't seem to be faced with any good choices. Obi-Wan believes what Luke wants is truly impossible and, having failed to stop Vader when he could have before, of course he's trying to stop Luke from making the same mistake.

But it's significant that in the same conversation, Obi-Wan does warn him that his love for his sister could be made a liability if he's not careful. When Luke learns he has a twin and reveals how strong a connection he feels with Leia because he doesn't even have to be told who it is, Obi-Wan's response sets up how this will play into the climax of the film:

"Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They do you credit, but they could be made to serve the Emperor."

Then when Luke is brought to Sidious, he reveals to Luke that the Rebellion is walking right into a trap as a way to torment and provoke him. Luke gets angrier and angrier while helplessly watching the fleet get ambushed and finally does just what Sidious wants and tries to attack him. But it's Vader specifically threatening Leia that makes Luke totally lose control of his feelings and fight him in a rage.

Luke is basically facing the same kind of test he failed so badly in ESB by running off to help his friends. When Yoda is trying to make him see he's not ready to face Vader and keep him from going to Bespin, he says something that I think is such an underrated quote in its importance to Luke's whole journey:

"Decide you must how to serve them best. If you leave now, help them you could, but you would destroy all for which they have fought and suffered."

Luke is really lucky he doesn't get killed in Cloud City (or captured, which I think at this point could have resulted in him being turned). Yoda knows Luke is the one person with a chance of defeating the Emperor and Luke just about throws that away.

But at the end of RotJ when Luke cuts off Vader's hand, he surely is reminded of his failure at Bespin and sees the path he's starting down by succumbing to his fears like that again. He stops because he sees he's betraying his loved ones and everything he is. He can only throw away his weapon and confidently tell the Emperor to eat shit then because he's no longer afraid of dying or of those he loves dying. He's done what his father couldn't do and kept his soul intact, which is what Leia would want. Because real love isn't selfishly trying to save someone by betraying what they believe in like Anakin did with Padme. And it obviously has to be an incredibly powerful thing for Vader to see his own son able to do this, even comparing himself to the man he once was ("I am a Jedi, like my father before me").

We remember everything working out okay so it's easy sometimes to forget that Luke gives this triumphant speech when the rebel fleet is getting pulverized outside and things overall still look pretty hopeless. He probably expects he could die at this point. But like Obi-Wan in his own death scene, he knows nothing can destroy him now. And it's the love he feels for his family that gives him the strength to let go.

[maxwellatoms]

Do you have a favorite of your own characters? Or certain ones that you feel particularly connected to? I feel like creators tend to put bits of themselves into their characters--are any of them like that for you? Just wanna say your work is a huge inspiration to me and really helped shape my art and taste in media growing up, thanks for putting your work out into the world!!!

Theoretically, I love them all.

They're all a part of me in some way.

I've discovered over the years that I just can't handle characters I can't relate to. Most specifically, Billy, Mandy, and Grim are major facets of my personality. I purposefully related them to Freud's Id, Ego, and Superego, but they're all very specifically also a part of who I am. Billy is my fun-loving lust for freedom from schedules and consequences. Mandy is the part of me that realizes that Billy will destroy us all, so there must be structure. Grim is just trying to live his life. He wants to watch TV and pet cats, but life (unlife?) just won't give him a break. He's the viewpoint character to my Asperger's.

Irwin is the sad-sack/misguided hero redeemed, which is always a trope I love.

Eris is specifically the Discordian Eris, but also the extreme end of that Billy lust for freedom and the will of the RNG gods. (Good gravy -- my current BG3 playthrough)

Nergal is my love for Lovecraftian/Howardian Mesopotamian deities as has-beens.

Jeff the Spider (quite literally me at the time of his inception) was Too Nice, and therefore a sucker.

Hoss Delgado is the knowledge that if you gaze too long into the abyss... you end up with a chainsaw for a leg.

Then (because this is a collaboration) you've got characters who are primarily created by and representative of other people. For example, Fred Fredburger was created by C.H. Greenblatt. Sperg was created by Gord Zajac (as was Hoss, really). Boogey was created by Spencer Laudiero. All of these artists infused some piece of themselves into the character.

This is (IMO) where it gets fun. It's the ultimate Role Playing Game. It's childhood play made manifest. I've got my Luke Skywalker figure and you've got your Darth Vader figure and we've got two COBRA H.I.S.S. tanks and a Muffy from Battlestar Galactica and we're gonna hash this shit out.

Ideally, I think I'd want a "Simpsons World". A world where there are zero (or as close as possible) extraneous characters. Everyone represents something and everyone matters. I was so close with B&M. Fingers crossed I get there one day.

[asocial-skye]

This is probably elaborated on a lot more in detailed meta, but for all of the shit that Lucas has pulled and all of his questionable decisions, Palpatine is probably his greatest triumph as a villain within narrative. Yes, he is absolutely a cartoon with no redeeming qualities, and Anakin definitely has a more dynamic character arc, but it's still incredible.

Star Wars as a franchise is associated with war and wartime: laser sword battles, epic forbidden romance, last stand trench runs against powerful enemies. It's all action, stylized violence and "rule of cool." There is good character writing and plot of course, but the public perception of Star Wars as a whole is about the cool space wizards and laser guns.

So it's absolutely curious that Lucas, in a trilogy that he said was geared towards children, had his villain do none of the things that made Star Wars so famous. Palpatine never fought ever. Except in Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine's horrible crimes all stemmed from his politics, and his cunning. Part of the Jedi's blindness to Sidious was that he was playing them on a field that they didn't expect: politics.

The Jedi are not politicians, nor have any interest in politics; the movies make this painfully clear. (The fact that the Council just goes and attempts to execute Palpatine, a popular leader who was "democratically" elected-I will give the Jedi credit; Palpatine is a monster, and killing him then and there was probably necessary- shows that there aren't the most politically minded) Palpatine literally does more damage to the entire galaxy that has repercussions for a generation- seriously, people like Biggs probably lived and died within the Empire- than Anakin could ever do during Operation: Knightfall or even as his tenure as Vader. And the Jedi can't do anything to stop it because they refused to play the game. In fact, one could make the argument that refusing to play only meant that Palpatine could carry out his agenda even faster.

It's almost like the bad guy won because any damage wreaked by an army of space wizards can be done a thousandfold by one politician. And it's like the lesson is that if you turn a blind eye to the injustices in your government, the corruption festers until it turns into something unspeakably horrid, and by then it'll be too late.

That's something to think about.

[raleighrador]

Most fics I have read - even/especially the very good ones - that include Anakin having a relationship with Obi-Wan after Mustafar (or AUs where something similar to Mustafar occurred) are almost always frustrating to me. At least unsatisfying.

Anakin having any kind of positive relationship with Obi-Wan post Mustafar always seems to rely on a level of introspection and self awareness that frankly my head canon of Anakin is totally incapable of.

Anakin is not a forgiving person, even at his best. He is kind and generous but not forgiving. He remembers every slight (real or imagined). He holds onto those memories and lets them fester.

He also remembers all the good. He never forgets them. He cherishes them and polishes them and places them on a pedestal.

It's why (and a symptom of) he's so fucked in the head when it comes to his most important relationships.

He has no synthesised view of Obi-Wan or Padme or Palpatine or Luke. They are all of the things they have ever done to or been to Anakin.

What changes is the weighting Anakin gives to each of these things, with a massive recency bias.

I don't see how Anakin, in the full knowledge that Obi-Wan is the man who cut off his limbs, set him on fire, left him to burn, left him for Sidious to find, and then stole and separated his children before Padme's body was cold...

Could ever forgive him.

The why's and the intentions and who deserved what just wouldn't matter to (my head canon) of Anakin.

In lieu of self-awareness many fics give Anakin basically limitless self loathing. So instead of dealing with Obi-Wan or Padme or whatever he just hates himself so much that he doesn't have time to hate Obi-Wan anymore.

There is a lot I like about this (narratively/as entertainment) but I think the thing it misses is that is how Anakin worked prior to Mustafar anyway. He already hated himself almost limitlessly and he still found the time and energy to hate Obi-Wan.

After Mustafar he would have so much more justification for that hatred and resentment. So why would his self loathing get in the way?

The longer the timeline of these stories aligns to canon the more true this becomes.

I think by the time you get to Ghost Anakin at the end of ROTJ the things he would regret most are (in no particular order): choking Padme, handing Luke to the Emperor, torturing Leia, chopping off Luke's hand. MAYBE he regrets Alderaan but only in as much as it made Leia sad and means she hates him.

And he would likely blame everyone and anyone but especially Obi-Wan for this.

If Leia's surname was Skywalker, if they weren't separated, if Luke wasn't lied to about who Vader/Anakin was, if the Jedi hadn't filled Luke's head with lies and trained him as a weapon etc.

The rest of it? I just don't know that Anakin would really regret that much of it. I don't think he would see much difference - even with hindsight - between what he did as Vader in service of the Empire and what he did as Anakin in service of the Republic.

Killing the Jedi younglings probably sits in its own category. However, I maintain that Anakin would believe this was an acceptable price to save Padem IF it worked.

That might be his biggest regret - that none of it worked, that he lost Padme and his children anyway.

But any time travel force shenanigans where Vader uses the dark side to yeet himself into the past such that he can save Padme etc.

He would think that was a good deal.

There is the final (meta) element to all of this which is that Anakin's eventual forgiveness of Obi-Wan seems to generally function more as a narrative tool to assuage Obi-Wan's guilt, rather than some kind of real character development for Anakin.

And TBH I just want Obi-Wan to suffer/don't cate about him but that is another post.

I do however have sympathy for this - because I think Anakin is really, really hard to write.

A "redeemed" Anakin in my mind isn't one who suddenly becomes some kind of virtuous rules based utilitarian like the Jedi aspire to be, like Obi-Wan is.

A redeemed Anakin is one who chose his son, chose his family. A redeemed Anakin is one who was finally put in a position where choosing his family WAS the greater good. Anakin chose to save Luke - and kill Sidious - for the exact same reason and applying the exact same logic he applied to every other major choice he ever made.

And I don't see that Anakin as ever getting over what Obi-Wan did to him and his family. At best I see him not killing Obi-Wan because it would make Luke sad.

[lessnowon]

confession: TRoS ruined kylo/ben for me, despite not liking him previously.

when i watched TFA in the movie theater, i absolutely hated kylo ren (not in an "anti" way, it's simply a sign of a good villian). TLJ put him on thin ice with me because like 🤢 re*lo foreshadowing (yes in an anti way, but not the point of this post so dont @ me) but i otherwise still loved to hate him, even if i didn't understand why so many fans liked him. but then the dreaded TRoS happened and i was like... "huh, i miss kylo ren?"

i mean, i know that character development is a thing, but... what happened to my darth tantrum? what happened to "let the past die, kill it if you have to"? like, it baffles me that he ends TLJ having killed his master, been rejected by rey and rejected her in turn (again), claimed the title of supreme leader, and then been publicly humiliated by his uncle/ex-master—and then in TRoS he just... ditches everything he has achieved, lets go of all the perceived wrongs against him, reverts to ben, and kisses rey? and oh by the way it was Palpatine, still, all along?? isnt this supposed to be a new story?????

obviously he wouldn't end the final movie of the trilogy in the same as he was halfway through or at the start, but i think it's stupid that he had so much build up as a villain, actively rejecting the light side and redemption at every single turn—and he had many, many opportunities—only to spend most of the third movie on the side of the light, helping to defeat the exact same villain that was defeated three movies ago

like yeah, okay, he "finished vader's business" and "killed the past" by finally defeating darth sidious, but idk... the guy started out the trilogy so determined to uphold vader's legacy that he led the slaughter of every student at luke's temple a la anakin at the end of RotS, that he murdered and tortured innocents for years, and instead of realizing that "letting the past die" includes vader's legacy and making his own way, redeemed or not but still remaining kylo—or, hell, even evolving his ambition into the determination to outdo vader where vader fell short; killing the past by becoming the new, more powerful evil—he, what???? learns that he can just shed years of deliberate bad choices because none of it was his fault anyways, and all he has to do is repeat the past to be redeemed because he is just doomed to be an echo of his ancestors that contributes nothing genuinely new to his family history, anyways?

yeah i preferred the unstable and immature yet wildly overpowered possible-sociopath on the cusp of shedding his blinders and coming into his own...

[autistic-ben-tennyson]

Ok now I’m mad 🤬🤯

So this liberal Zionist Jedi apologist found my post and it was not enough for them to just disagree but to accuse me, a transgender Korean American, of hating asexual, Jewish and Asian people when all I did was criticize Jedi stans using them as a shield, makes me want to punch my phone. Being called a Lily Orchard sock puppet is funny when one of my top posts is an essay defending Steven Universe. She probably wouldn’t like my anime posts either since she hates it. I have a feeling either Short-wooloo or Jedi-enthusiast, both white queer Zionists and both have me blocked, are responsible for this. I may be kin with a white superhero but anyone who reads my bio and posts knows I’m not a cisgender white male.

As for “liking fictional fascists” I think they mean me not hating Vader or putting all the blame entirely on him for his fall as well as me calling out the puritanical attitude many Jedi stans like kanansdume/antianakin have towards Kallus and Crosshair’s redemptions. I like redeemed villains as someone who used to be a conservative Christian because I was raised that way and said some homophobic things. Characters like Kallus are reminder that you can still change and do better for me. People like the OP, despite hating “cultural Christianity” are just puritanical moral guardians in a rainbow flag.

I’ve noticed a reoccurring pattern for liberal jumblr users like the OP is for them to lie about and smear anyone who disagrees. Jewish people who won’t support them are fake or tokens. Palestinians are all scammers. Us BIPOC goyim are really white or self hating for refusing to put up with their BS. Jumblr Zionists demand solidarity from us while spitting in our faces the moment we reject their garbage. They can put ACAB or BLM in their bios all they want but the second someone protests or calls them out, they immediately become bootlickers for the police or the FBI, you know the group that created cointelpro and wiretapped Dr. King. They can think of themselves as uwu fandom bloggers but they’re all just trash people who hate anyone different from them.

@underwaterspiderbird @supremechancellorrex

[short-wooloo]

With the news from Adam Driver about how kylo redemption was never the plan originally and his story was basically meant to be reverse Vader, I'd like to resurrect an old conspiracy theory of mine about Rise of Skywalker

So the duel in the ruins of the death star, y'know how it ends with Rey stabbing kylo and then she heals him?

Well I believe he originally was meant to die there, Rey killed him in anger, and it causes a breakdown in her, she's upset not only that she failed Leia and couldn't redeem kylo, but also terrified by her anger, scared that she truly is a Palpatine, and from there we get our pep talk from Luke and final battle with Sidious

Basically I think Rey healing kylo was a last minute addition to the script (probably at disney's insistence)

And the rest of the film doesn't exactly prove me wrong

How does kylo get to exegol after Rey took his TIE fighter? Well apparently in the exploded, sitting in water for 30 years ruins of the death star there's not only a functional imperial TIE, but one with a hyperdrive too

What does kylo do upon reaching exegol? Fight the knights of Ren, something Rey herself could do or perhaps even better you could have had the Knights fight Finn, Rose and the Resistance soldiers

Does kylo meaningfully contribute to the final battle with Sidious? Not really, he gets drained of his life force by Sidious (so basically he inadvertently helps him) and is thrown down a hole for the rest of the battle, Rey does all the heavy lifting from there

The only meaningful contribution kylo makes after his "redemption" is sacrificing himself to revive Rey, which may not have even needed to happen because the only reason she was so drained is because kylo being there caused Sidious to realize he could absorb both of their life forces to restore himself (so in a way, it's his fault!) Alternatively it could have just been written that Rey passed out due to exhaustion and was otherwise fine

So yeah, that's my conspiracy, not that crazy, perfectly reasonable from my perspective

[incorrectpizza]

"oh, [xyz book/movie/comic] makes [remorseful imperial] too sympathetic!!" shut up this is the franchise that redeemed darth vader.

star wars has always had an overwhelming amount of grace for the "bad guys."

there are times that staunch imperial loyalists have been portrayed too positively, and those are problematic.

but those who have even smidgeons of doubt, remorse, regret? they've always been welcomed to the light with open arms.

consequences may come.

but ultimately, i think that these stories do something important: they show us how far someone can fall, how evil someone can be. and they show us that no one is ever too far gone.

a portrait, if you will, of man's depravity and God's grace.

[phantomchick]

✩ WEEKLY FIC ROUND-UP ✩

Naruto

Hear the silence by EmptySurface the self insert fic that got me to start giving other SI fic a chance, continues to be great

the name of the game by a_sassin Follows the story of a civilian shogi player in the Naruto world and all the shinobi trouble she gets dragged into.

If You Give Me A Sword by TakaGang Ichigo (from Bleach) is the firstborn of the Uchiha mainhouse and Itachi is relegated to middle child.

Senju Of Wave by TheBeardedOne Naruto raised by Tsunade au

With Friends Like These by RecklessWriter sasuke time travel fix it

BNHA (can't believe the manga's ending in 5 chapters? Time flies)

The Democratic Republic of One for All by featherlessquill (CinnamonScribbles) All Might tells Izuku he can't be a hero, the echoes of One For All vote and decide they think he can and give Izuku the quirk

Harry Potter (disclaimer: I'm not a terf/transphobe fuck jkr)

Encounters of the Future Sort by CalmlyErratic The fifth marauders + Lily and Snape travel forward in time to Harry's fifth year. Chaos and angst ensues.

Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Snake by gonzoclock James and Lily baby trap Voldemort without his knowledge, Harry is Lily and Tom's bio son.

Fascist ideology in the Harry Potter Fandom. [Or, for real everyone, we are in the middle of a global rise in fascism please *think* about the things you're reading and the ideas they're platforming.] by skeli666 excellent meta is excellent

Star Wars

Biting His Own Tale by ADragonsFriend Anakin time travels, this does not make stopping Palpatine's plans magically simpler. Cathartic for those who wanted Darth Vader to actually do the work to atone after Luke redeemed him and for those who find prequel fix its unrealistically easy with just knowledge of Palp's identity/the clone chips sometimes.

Batman

Wings over Gotham by icarus_chained platonic abo my beloved, divergent from no man's land on, one of my favourite series

straight back by TheResurrectionist That oliver gets mad at batman on his friend bruce wayne's behalf fic. If you follow my tumblr you've already seen me reccing this but still can't leave it out

let the light in by TheResurrectionist that other great platonic ollie & bruce fic

Chronicles of Narnia the seas of all i knew by softtooth_jpeg edmund/caspian, I love the way this fic goes into Edmund's psychology and why he acts the way he does at the start of the lion, the witch and the wardrobe, top tier writing

Four Thrones by shinealightonme A short but great fic that shows the Pevensie's transition from the end of the lion, the witch and the wardrobe to kings and queens.

A:TLA

Waiting on that morning sun by DustOnDaydreams

“To the Generals, Admirals, Officers, Soldiers and Sailors of the Fire Nation, Halt your advance. Pull back to your nearest military stronghold, and await further orders. Do not engage any forces unless absolutely necessary for your own defence. Put out any fires you come across. Sign it only with the full list of the Fire Lord's titles." “Your Majesty, do you not want to put your name to the missive?” A young pimpled scribe squeaked out to the shocked silence. “No. I want them to obey the order.” Or Zuko's transition from child soldier to young monarch in charge of a corrupted nation

MARVEL

(Un)Fortunate Circumstances by lomku au where Tony and Steve meet differently

Or how Steve wakes up from the ice in the SHIELD facility, runs into Tony, and kind of kidnaps him in his bid for freedom.

Even the Score by Sineala for phoenixmetaphor stony oneshot, Tony high in the hospital panics and attacks Steve. Super good.

Sucker Punch by Sineala Angst. Angst. Angst. Oneshot. Steve never quite warms to Tony Stark, Avengers benefactor. The Molecule Man never strips Iron Man out of his armor. Life goes on for the Avengers, but as disagreements split the team -- and Shellhead and Winghead -- again and again, Steve wonders why Iron Man always picks Tony over him. And when Steve finds out, it happens in the worst way possible. Captain America was a good man by ElnaK inspired by Sineala's work this is Tony's side of the fic, "Sucker Punch". IT'S SO GOOD BUT PREPARE FOR ANGST.

yugioh

Legally Insane by Xparrot continues to be my fave yugioh fic

Percy Jackson

ATLOP: Trial by Fire by WardofWinters (QoLife)

Percy was having a normal day at the beach, until he decided to try to waterbend like Katara from his favorite show.

Nothing to make a song about but kings by iwillpassthis

It’s a fortune that Poseidon has a mortal son, because when an ancient curse hits his kingdom and all the sea gods disappear… well, someone must rule.

Original work

The Gift of Perfect Knowledge by BookmarkBookworm

[ihassheepquake]

So as I finish Defy the Storm by Tessa Gratton and Justina Ireland, I've noticed a theme throughout the High Republic that comes back to different variations of Rose Tico's line from The Last Jedi "That's how we gonna win. Not fighting what we hate, saving what we love." It's never exactly the same, but the essence is always there. Victory not through defeating an enemy or destroying something, but in saving something. I do think there's an ideological difference between the two approaches to achieving victory. Vernestra Rwoh says something kinda similar to the Jedi Council at the end of this book, and Belin told Avar Kriss something similar in The Eye of Darkness by George Mann.

I really love seeing this idea show up as a theme throughout this era because I think it's really central to the theme of Star Wars. That scene of Rose in the movie gets a lot of hate for being "stupid" and because "that's what Finn was trying to do." But in my experience, the people who react that way tend to be the same people who love Luke "redeeming" Vader at the end of Return of the Jedi (in quotes because I'm sorry Vader, but doing one good thing and then dying after being a tyrant for decades isn't redemption) and fail to realize that that's what Luke was doing. He was winning not by defeating what he hated, but by saving what he loved. The ability for even the worst people to choose to do something good is one of the core tenants of this franchise. Now, it obviously doesn't always work. Anakin was, in his own really fucked up and selfish way, ultimately trying to save what we loved when he fell to the dark side (but I think that's also very much a result of love with attachment vs love without attachment, which is a different conversation for a different time). But this idea working is still pretty consistent throughout the movies, even when they throw in a little destroying what you hate.

Anyway, as I get ready to start my next book of The High Republic (Temptation of the Force is technically next but I still need to read The Rising Storm, Path of Deceit, and Path of Vengeance before Tears of the Nameless releases on the 24th), I'm excited to see if and how this theme comes back up again.