#datv fandom critical

[housederiva]

The amount of people I have seen say ‘well obviously I'm picking Harding for the end choice, there's no way I'm losing Assan’

Are you forgetting this a whole Davrin attached to that bird

[qwainte]

"I'm glad Veilguard didn't show any slavery in Tevinter or significantly incorporate anti-Elvish discrimination into the setting. These things are too upsetting and I play games to escape the horrors of the real--"

Go play Animal Crossing

[visceralcoma]

Why is every elf rook I see in the tags just thin as fuck? What happened to the outrage of prior games not letting us have chubby or thicker characters. And now that we have the options… why is every elf rook I see just a burst of wind away from being knocked out - that’s how skinny they are.

Oh right I know why.

[postcardsfromheapside]

Enjoy my low effort, benedryl fueled meme commentary

[sha-lyuzar]

"You're just mad it's not like origins"

Yeah, how dare i be disappointed in a game series that has followed a certain tone and theme for three games, and has always been narratively complex, and about navigating hard decisions and moral dilemmas, structual injustices, deep characterisations, beauty and tragedy in tandem, rich worldstates and character arcs and thin lines between heros and villains... it's almost as if my disappointment stems from care and passion for dragon age, and not from an unwillingness to accept change, or a misplaced sense of nostalgia. It's almost as if people are allowed to criticise a thing and discuss its flaws, while also enjoying other aspects of it, and voicing their opinions on the world's most unprofitable social network to a handfull of followers and mutuals, isn't going to make any meaningful dent in the game's success

[asharaks]

like i do think there is a consideration to be made here, that essentially when they saw that lucanis' romance wasn't landing the way they hoped (due to lack of content, dodgy pacing, and overall being declaimed as unsatisfying), the writer pivoted from "he's bisexual" to "he's panromantic demisexual"; this does feel, to me, like a disingenuous attempt to pass the problems with his romance off as Features, to shield against those criticisms without actually addressing them. if this very tentative slowburn was always the intent, the romance fails to convey it, in a game with all the subtlety of a brick in its other writing; if it wasn't, then assigning him asexuality as a shield is cheap and insulting.

ALL THAT BEING SAID. accusing his side romance with neve of "lacking emotional depth", accusing her of being incapable of intimacy, taking one throwaway line about her hat coming off as a sign that they're fucking like rabbits from day one: What's Wrong With You. why can't you view brown women as capable and deserving of care and intimacy outside of sex. why do you assume his relationship with neve - which is characterised by sweetness, hesitancy, and obvious affection on both sides - is shallower and more physical than his relationship with rook?

just on the whole whatever your feelings about lucanis and lucanis/neve are can we be careful and thoughtful in the way we talk about the woman of colour in this situation please. can we maybe consider that when typing our rants:)

[thevulturesquadron]

Dropping this as an example and leaving out any names - so please don’t go and start an argument with these people or harass anyone. It’s not why I'm writing this, it gives them more attention, and there is no room for an actual conversation.

But, to my point! I am starting to believe that people online aren’t always shitheads on purpose. They are seriously lacking reading comprehension and that is absolutely terrifying.

In this one example the dev has not said any of the things they are being accused of. Let me break this down a bit.

Starting with the Bellara statement - the answer literally says Bellara is the most knowledgeable when it comes to elven magic EXCEPT compared to the elven gods. And even then, it’s prefaced by two things: 1. PROBABLY, which is used to show that it’s not a certainty and that there's a high chance there are others around the world (let’s saaay... people like Merrill), but they are not within reach so it's inconsequential. And 2. ‘Bellara ASSUMES’, which implies she doesn’t actually hold the totality of knowledge. The game shows again and again that she is in the process of learning through experimenting and nothing in this answer contradicts that. Additionally, literally during the game, Bellara has access to Solas’s ancient library at the Lighthouse AND an ancient archive of knowledge. Basically she has MANUALS on ancient magic from the very people that practiced it.

2. ‘Evanuris don’t understand magic’ - again the answer never said that. What it conveyed was that the Evanuris had access to magic and found ways to make it work for them. It was a tool, much like electricity: we didn’t invent it, it is a phenomenon we learnt to turn into power and use. The game kept reminding everyone again and again that the Evanuris weren’t gods, just powerful mages and Epler’s answer just reaffirmed that. (Plus this is something previous games have also hinted at repeatedly). The Elven Gods didn’t invent magic, and much like everyone else in Thedas, after they tapped into that force they started applying it in ways they were able to understand. Solas himself (the voice the devs created to tell a story) said that in so many ways throughout the game, so why are people acting like this is the first time they're hearing about it??

Anyway, this is just me taking the time to analyze one of the many absolutely mind-boggling takes that exist out there, and there’s… a lot of them. These people should just put the phone down and open a book.

[butchvamp]

okay i've played a bit more and i have a lot of thoughts about Taash and the way gender is being handled overall in this game...

first i will say the positives which is that i do really appreciate the attempt at incorporating trans characters both in the world as companions and allowing us to make those options in the cc. and as someone who also writes dark fantasy stories with trans characters i do understand how difficult it can be to incorporate these identities into a world that doesn't necessarily have the same language as we do; but overall the way they've approached this feels very... i've seen some people call it unpolished but i actually feel the opposite. it's almost clinical (therapy-speak in general has been a main criticism of this game) and it's way too polished, in my opinion, which is what makes it so jarring to see.

there has been a trans character established in game previously, there is already a precedent for these identities to exist in this world, and they have never used this language before. the way Iron Bull talked about Krem felt far more realistic and integrated into the world of Thedas comparatively. was it perfect? no, of course not, but i chafe at the idea that it needs to be perfect, anyways. this is another problem the game has; past characters have had their flaws completely ironed out (Isabela is now a paragon of friendship and returns cultural artifacts instead of looting them, Dorian has multiple codex entries wallowing about how he used to defend slavery, the Crows have suddenly become a big found family-- on and on and on) and while i have my criticisms of some of these flaws (Dorian's pro-slavery rant in inqusition still makes my eyes roll) i dislike the way they're handling these changes and just expecting us to ignore all of the lore and worldbuilding from previous games. and all of this "political correctness" only for the game to still be so racist.

which brings me back to Taash.... Taash is very strange character, lacking agency around both their gender and their culture. they are simply a mouthpiece for the writer. while yes, it should always be made undeniable that your character is trans or gay or xyz, Taash really does only exist to be nonbinary. and to be clear, a nonbinary character like them could be very interesting, if their writing wasnt so... white. we know that the Qun has different ideas about gender than Rivain (and elsewhere) and this could have been a very interesting exploration of that; however, it is obvious that the Qun (and Taash's mother) are meant to be depicted negatively, and ultimately it ends with the player (not Taash) choosing between their two cultures. their gender is clearly far more important to the writer and the only facet of their identity they seemed willing to explore, which makes me question why even make this character qunari to begin with...

Neve and Rook are also the two that spur Taash into exploring their gender. this, on the surface, is not a problem for me. i'm playing as a trans Rook and while the dialogue was again very overpolished and clunky i found it kind of endearing. but the way Neve is used as this "foil" for Taash really rubbed me the wrong way. this assumption that Neve has no complicated feelings about her gender or being a woman (which i highly doubt considering the world she lives in & how misogynistic it is) and the implication from Taash that she only dresses the way she does for her mother/other people (which Neve doesn't even get to challenge) is extremely narrow-minded. Taash is the Only character that acknowledges gender; so far, even when flirting with other characters, it's only been Taash that i've been allowed to specify with that my rook is trans, despite Taash already knowing that from our previous conversation (i hope that this changes once i lock in with a specific character so feel free to correct me if it does).

but no one else really seems to have an opinion except that Neve drags Taash around to meet Maevaris, and we get the very goofy note that's just a list of modern gender identities and their definitions. i do partly sympathize with the writers here; again i've had to find a way to incorporate lgbt identities in my own writing and it can be difficult depending on your audience. i understand wanting to be very clear and concise. but this is... just goofy. and this desperation to be so correct around gender while simultaneously writing such an offensively racist narrative is really frustrating.

there's also an inconsistency that comes from this with Taash's character-- they are portrayed as this rough but awkward character that is bossed around by their mother, they are bashful with flirting early on and are almost child-like in comparison to the other characters. and then suddenly you get a scene with them where they very directly ask if you want to have sex and suddenly pin you against the wall. this scene was so jarring to me i referred to it as a jumpscare because WHERE has this character been this entire time? i want to see more of this, more of this character who takes what they want and knows exactly who they are (which they even say multiple times when you first meet them... but then need Neve and Rook to hold their hand about it?)

i do really like Taash, i like the idea of them, of this very self-assured and almost cocky character who is also a little silly, this person who is so sure of who they are but has to deal with their mother undermining them while also navigating a culture they feel disconnected from, and i also like that the player can help them through it... but the execution is awful, shallow, and racist. the idea that someone can only choose One culture is so offensive and also a laughable conclusion when compared to their coming out as nonbinary. the writer clearly understands that people don't exist within these little boxes when it comes to gender, but can't wrap their head around it when it comes to someone's culture-- which is also a very important part of a person's identity and often contributes directly to their gender and how they feel about it. all of these different characters have different experiences, come from different places, Davrin and Bellara are Dalish and even have differing opinions on what that means for themselves, but the game doesn't touch on any of it. all we get is a lecture from the writer that is completely removed from the world it's presented in.

i wish i could understand what it was this character was meant to convey. i stand by saying that it doesn't need to be perfect; i know there are people that had problems with Krem in inquisition, but at least Krem was his own person. Taash doesn't even get that here... i harp a lot about character agency when i give writing advice on my other blog but it really is so so so important for marginalized characters-- both gay, trans, and especially characters of color-- to have their own agency around their identities that is completely separate from the player & player choice, that allows them to exist as their own person within the world you've created, and i think Taash's character and story is an unfortunate example of exactly what not to do.

[virginiathegray]

Watching creators across the internet yap themselves into hating this game for no reason is actually so sad

[thedissonantverses]

I’m so confused by the urge to judge Veilguard by like….what’s not in it? This happens every game cycle and it’s so bizarre to me. I didn’t get mad at ME3 for not going back to Noveria and having me do more corporate espionage. Ya know two different stories and all. Y’all should…try that. This isn’t the MCU.

That whole “Fenris would break Veilguard” thing is a good example of this type of critique.(Slavery exists in Minrathous in game it’s not game breaking. I know this because I….played the game and saw them. Can we be done with this argument already?) I romanced him and I was so relieved he was nowhere near Inquisition or Veilguard because look at what happened to Hawke. He wasn’t in the story because he didn’t need to be that’s seriously it. Or not having Solas have an elf army. Or I think a more recent one is that Lucanis isn’t an abomination so there’s no abominations? (I’ll be honest the premise failed on contact and I’m too gay for this southern chantry b.s. term Black Divine truther over here)

This game gave you a ton of new things to enjoy. It didn’t scrub the lore by doing so. In fact, the lore is woven so tightly into it you can’t pick the seams out. A story focusing on the part of the world it is set in is not a sanitization of the lore. That’s not how world-building works. This is a basic tenet of engaging with large worlds in fiction. Also how Earth works. Just saying. The rest of Thedas is still there. I mean we’re not gonna see anymore of it if you keep nitpicking the game to death but hey at least we got four good Dragon Age games that’s a good run.

P.S. Critique the game. Just do it based off what it is and not shit that doesn’t need to be in it because it would have made it worse.

[saintlethanavir]

Here's the thing. Why does Rook need to be the chosen one? Why can't people understand that Rook was another person helping Varric and that they stepped up when Harding was grieving??

Rook was chosen by accident.

Rook shed blood at the ritual site and Solas chose to use blood magic to bind them together and use Rook as a replacement. They were easily manipulated because they were in a position of grief.

Varric chose Rook to help because they were kind, in some fashion at least. They helped people, they wanted to keep people safe and had a passion for justice.

READ. THE. BACK STORIES.

[resol-nare]

Okay I'm just going to say it because I'll explode otherwise.

Neve and Bellara could be a cute ship but I'm put off by the people who are INSISTENT that they would be better romantically.

Maybe it's my aroace-ness bleeding through but I don't get it. Why can't they be better as friends?

"Why should they only be friends when they could also be fucking?"

Why does everyone have to be fucking. Why. What is wrong with people just vibing platonically?

I think there's something to be said for close platonic relationships because they CAN be just as intimate if not more so. And pretending that romantic/sexual relationships are somehow automatically superior just feels bad to me.

Honestly I dread the day that Bioware or any other studio starts talking in depth about the ace spectrum and makes it part of a character's arc, because I know the fandom will NOT treat them right. Y'all could barely handle yourselves when Mary Kirby said Lucanis was intended to be demisexual.

[merciawintersageposting]

other people will have more informed takes than mine.

let’s talk about anti-ships and racist misogyny among white fans in the dragon age fandom.

when it comes to content about women of color, fandom is already a nightmare but anti-ships are hellscapes.

the most toxic forms of anti-shipping language label women of color as “easy” or “convenient.” (literally the same terms used in fast-food marketing). this type of language objectifies Black and brown women as disposable and consumable plot devices in the service of a white MC or shipper. within certain anti-ship spaces, discourse centers on the WOC character’s sexiness while negating her inherent humanity (see bell hooks, eating the other).

in this racist-sexist framing, white shippers read women characters of color as desirable but, if not actively antagonistic to them, then unworthy of true partnership/humanity/autonomy. this shows up as:

she’s sexy, but not real enough (like me/my OC) to deserve him.

she’s the convenient choice, not “someone to come home to.”

she can’t/won’t repair the broken parts of him like i/my OC can

[insert threatening, violent and scary anti-ship narratives we’ve all seen out there in the ether]

to this let’s also add the racist-sexist stereotypes that paint brown women characters as wily seductresses, while framing the shipper as a wifely “caretaker” who can “fix/heal” their LI (conflating acceptance with obsession and codependency). these binaries humanize whiteness/men characters/shipper identity by dehumanizing women of color.

the act of defining who is considered “real” or “deserving” is about power— not partnership. no matter how much emotional or pseudo-intellectual language it’s couched in, this is about wielding the power to dehumanize and align with white patriarchy.

paraphrasing Stitch’s Media Mix, racist misogyny within shipping culture matters because it’s about the way fans do rhetorical violence to choose whiteness and patriarchy over women of color.

it’s digital white main character syndrome.

it’s pick-me culture.

and it’s dangerous af.

[themaybug]

if i see one more person argue that emmrich/f!rook is somehow less valid than emmrich/m!rook because he's 'clearly more into men' i will get violent. even if he somehow canonically prefers men, he still also canonically dated at least one woman so saying that he's 'gay, actually', is just straight up biphobia

this is like astarion all over again.... just because a man is more effeminate, takes care of his appearance, likes jewellery etc. doesn't automatically make them gay??? this is the kind of prejudice that makes men irl afraid to be anything other than masculine

[postcardsfromheapside]

This is why I can't take this fandom seriously.

Taash is in their very early 20's. They are not a “thousands of years old being who speaks in iambs” or whatever the fuck it is that Solavellans gush on about. Not a goddamn thing they say is “crap” - it's short, it's to the point, it's very often funny as fuck because it pulls no punches. It serves as comedic punctuation very often simply because they don't have the patience for other people's bullshit.

I never see specifics as to what people find cringey and I suspect it's because people are uncomfortable with Taash's identity, or CONSTANTLY forget they are 20-23. And holy shit the cringe things everyone says at that age.

Taash is remarkable and mature for their age, an expert in their favorite subject, and recognized as such by people much older than them, who literally put their lives in Taash's hands regularly. I think Taash is allowed a few moments to be weird and 20 once in a fucking while without people coming for Trick and gurgling on about inconsistent writing.

[heliomanteia]

Kind of adding on to my previous analysis bit about Davrin's arc, but I'm gonna say I'm concerned about media literacy within the DA fandom if Davrin's arc was hard to comprehend for people.

A little rant-like so I'm putting this under the cut:

VG has a strong and consistent narration that is mirrored or reflected within each companion's quest line: it's all about the bigger picture of personal choices and regrets and change and the inevitability of alteration and the need to live with the consequences — it is also somewhat about mortality and carpe diem. Pretty much every companion's line has something to do with death, coping, trauma, fear, and a big and important personal choice that would alter them as a person — it's always a "neither is better" choice and it calls upon your personal judgement to be made. There's room for criticizing the necessity of the black-and-white nature of some choices (i.e. Taash's culture question, for example) but overall they all have a consistent and equally important narrative line.

Claims that Davrin's arc is about Assan are actually hilarious. I assume people saying that have never in their life encountered a story where the main character had an animal companion, or just less sentient companion, that reflected their personality or some of their inner conflict. You know, the staple Disney/fantasy trope. This is an incredibly common narrative tool, it's bizarre to me that people saw that Assan has a lot of screen time and immediately assumed it's no longer about Davrin just because of that. I guess I could say it's not particularly shocking to me that DA fandom of all places had an issue of keeping their focus on a Black man's story. Moving on.

As for the claims that Davrin's arc is about Isseya, I'm a little shocked that was even a talking point. Because just as "animal companion reflecting the character's struggle" is a narrative tool that's up there among the ten most frequently used in media, "antagonist that reflects the main character's pathway in an inverted, perverted manner" is just as frequently applied. In fact, it's concerning that people missed Davrin vs. Isseya mirroring in the game based around the concept of recognition through the other and mirrors of self (Solas vs. Rook). I think it's safe to say that if someone did not catch anything about Davrin's arc and how it's entirely about him, I don't trust their general opinion on DATV overall. Because they're fucking stupid/didn't pay attention.

I don't think it's any surprise that at certain points VG gets a little too exposition-heavy, because apparently just giving people a good storyline with consistent and repetitive narrative that breaches the same narrative points but reflects it differently depending on the character it's about is not enough? Some people will be given the most direct mirror narration there could be without spoon-feeding it and they will still miss the whole fucking point? I'm not shocked that a large bit of "criticism" on VG writing/narrative/what was kept and what was omitted from being mentioned has been genuinely shit. And has consistently offered "fixtures" that would just make the stable narrative of VG a mess without a main theme.

Anyways, Davrin's storyline is very directly about him in every aspect mentioned; every person within his story reflects back on him and fleshes him out.