#dabb negative

[scenteddean]

anyway, at the end of the day my one and only enemy will always be 15x20 and i think 15x18 was the one good thing about the run of those final 3 episodes and to me it was perfect the way it was

[scoobydoodean]

I was wondering if you, as a Dean fan have opinions about the different writers? Mostly because I see a lot of Dean fans really strongly dislike Dabb for some reason and I don’t really understand why. I’ve never seen a concrete explanation beyond “he can’t write Dean/doesn’t understand Dean/actively hates Dean” but with no examples as to what he does that’s so bad. And I see this in every shipping lane. I don’t have a strong opinion about him as a writer one way or the other.

I'm exploring this more as I rewatch the show (currently on season 6) so I'll speak mainly from that perspective on my most recent thoughts. I am not a big fan of Dabb or Loflin, but have tried to be fair about things so far when talking through each episode. I am a fan of "Alpha and Omega"—it's my favorite finale (it's also... a finale for a season Carver started as showrunner? So I don't know what the implications are there as far as storyboarding). Also points for having demon Dean stab a guy through in 10.02.

I'll focus on the negatives you asked about in this post, but in the links you'll find me moving the narrative this way and that toward much more charitable readings... I think. (I do have a tag #dabb disk horse which you can either peruse or blacklist at your leisure). What I can tell you is something almost always strikes me as a off about Dabb/Loflin episodes so far in this rewatch in terms of character work.

Dabb/Loflin's first ever episode was 4.06 "Yellow Fever". In the aftermath, Kripke felt the need to release a definitive interpretation of their episode to the public, stating, "Dean is not a dick... he's a hero." The whole episode toyed with, to an extent, the idea that all the victims of the MotW were bullies. You can take this other directions—for example, queer meta, or meta about Sam as the real bully. However, the story a lot of fandom latched onto was that "Dean is a jerk and deserves to be humiliated and punished for that" which obviously didn't make Dean fans watching live in season 4 happy—and this theme of Jerk!Dean continues into their next episode, "After School Special", where they once again parallel Dean with a bully literally nicknamed "Dirk the Jerk" by Sam, and throw what I think is transparent shade at Kripke's issued statement from before the Christmas break (post here)... or maybe they mean to throw shade at the Dean fans who got angry. In this episode, they also make illusions to Dean wanting to have sex with barely legal high school cheerleaders, which also did not ingratiate them to Deanfans at the time. I said on my last rewatch, "In After School Special, Dean seems more unlike himself than any episode ever in the history of Supernatural up to this point" (post explaining that here). I carry similar sentiments about portions of 5.06 "I Believe The Children Are Our Future". Yes—I am aware of performing Dean meta. I just... feel like they try a little too hard. It feels hamfisted—desperate. To the point it doesn't feel like Dean anymore sometimes. In 5.06, they also have Dean (guy who is generally very protective of kids) suggest to Jesse that he'd be good to have in a fight???? I can see how they got there, but again—it just feels... off. The last episode I rewatched that they authored, 6.04 "Weekend At Bobby's", also leaves a bad taste in my mouth—not in what it's trying to do with Bobby or what it's trying to do on a meta level—but once again, with dialogue from Dean that just makes me think "he would not fucking say that" (post here). I think looking at all of these, you can probably see deangirl ire toward Dabb has a long history. It's been around as long as he's been around, whether he deserves as much ire as he gets or not.

I haven't circled back yet on this rewatch, but Dabb and Loflin also penned season 7's "The Girl Next Door"... do I need to say anything specific? Maybe I'll just link my entire #amy tag. What narrative did they want you to get from that episode? Who the fuck knows. And that's often the problem:

When you watch various episodes I've mentioned, you can work around to a meta that tells you something different than you might at first think the page conveys—something hidden and maybe contradictory. The thing is... you could also... not do that? And that wouldn't be so bad, except that sometimes the two narratives you can most easily grasp completely contradict each other. "After School Special" can be an episode that points to Sam's envy of Dean and John deep down and foreshadows Sam becoming a bully, but on a meta level, it also just as easily says Sam becoming a bully is somehow Dean's fault, and Sam is some poor captive baby. Dean is a creep and a bully and a cheater but we should all coddle him because he saw his mom die when he was a child and he's sooo sad. "Yellow Fever" can be a queer meta story and might also foreshadow approaching Bully!Sam in 4.14, but it also very much does call Dean a jerk (should we take that seriously? should we not?) and implies Dean should be punished for the outcome of three decades of reality-bending torture. Even if it's a queer meta underneath... it's just as easily one about how closeted men should be humiliated for cowardice or how being closeted turns you into an asshole.

Jumping way ahead, I have to mention 15.10 "The Hero's Journey" just because. Yes, it is full of jokes and Garth goodness, but also tries to sell you the story that nothing about Sam and Dean is real, to a degree that feels like you are being flipped the bird for ever watching this show. And again—you can make meta that it's all a ruse! But is it? Or is Dabb actually just telling you to go fuck yourself? Like he totally wasn't when, after the SPN finale when fans were Not Happy™️, he tweeted a sign reading, "Don't feed the baboons"? Yet again—we play into the motif of the "hero" who isn't a hero at all but some pathetic loser who deserves to be publicly humiliated, bookended with Dabb's opening episode in his opening season. I'm not saying that's what it is on purpose—but I am saying you can make these arguments easily, and that leaves me consistently annoyed with Dabb for being fucking sloppy and leaving me to deal with some of the most insufferable meta imaginable that carries little support outside of episodes written by Dabb or the Dabb/Loflin writing team.... Yes—I am in fact saying that Dabb and Loflin's hamfisted episodes (regardless of their intentions) are largely responsible for some of the most insufferable, loathesome fandom metas about Sam and Dean's relationship around.

Look at 5.16 "Dark Side Of The Moon", and 7.08 "Time for A Wedding!" and 8.14 "Trial and Error", 11.17 "Red Meat", and 15.20 "Carry On". Along with 4.13, while they might or might not say something deeper or contradictory on a meta level, on a surface level, every single one of these episodes sows the narrative that Dean is needy and clingy and needs Sam more than Sam needs him—something I intensely disagree with for a multitude of reasons... but I'll just link this. Many of these episodes also follow a surface level narrative of "normal life obsessed Sam" (and here I'll link my entire #sam the hunter tag and #in which sam is not a helpless little waif with his hands cast over his eyes being carried along by the tides of the immutable sea). When I look at this episode list, I also don't find it at all difficult to believe that Dabb wanted Dean to die in the finale. There is nothing at all shocking about that. And yes—you can argue he's pointing to the opposite—that this fate should be subverted and that's what makes 15.20 the dark ending, but I think you can just as easily argue that yes it's a dark ending and yes Dabb has always dreamed of this ending. A "tragic" ending where Dean dies and Sam goes on to have a white picket fence... while also leaving you little hints along the way that maybe it's all a big ruse because how could he not? He never has to explain anything. Someone else will pick up the story and make it make sense. He's already fucked off to piss all over fans of Resident Evil.

That said, when I mention what I feel is off character work, I mainly mention Dabb/Loflin episodes from my recent rewatch, which suffer from the two of them being newer to the series (coming onto the writing team in season 4) and also leave questions about whether, perhaps, they had conflicting ideas about characterization. Was Dabb the one penning these lines? Was it Loflin? Was it both? Did they trade out who took the lead? I didn't really say anything negative about "Sam, Interrupted" or "Jump the Shark"... (though "Sam, Interrupted" also calls Dean "codependent") who wrote those? Is it possible that the messiness of the meta comes down to two writers at war? I have to imagine though, that they got along, or else they wouldn't have written together for four fucking years. If they didn't get along...? My mind always comes back to their first solo episodes, right after splitting up in season 8. Dabb's first solo episode is "Hunteri Heroici"—the only episode to lend any perspective to season 8 Sam's reasons for abandoning everyone—paralleling him checking out with Fred's catatonia, which Sam has to save Fred from. It is the only episode that lends Sam sympathy in the early part of the season. He follows it up with "Trial and Error"—where Sam promises to save Dean from suicidal thoughts. Loflin's first solo episode is what I would regard as the most scathing solo episode commentary on Sam in the entire series—"Citizen Fang". Then he writes again right after Dabb's "Trial and Error"—penning "Remember The Titans" where Sam tells Dean to get over the promise Sam so passionately made in Dabb's episode and face reality.

This is why we're exploring this rewatch.

DISCLAIMER: Now I just devolve into bitching because I'm writing at 3AM. Proceed at your own risk.

It seems like these days, everyone demands an explanation for disliking Dabb (something about some sort of destiel battle... I don't know what that flamewar is and I don't give a damn tbqh.) I guess I've just been wondering what's actually so great about him. Because it feels like people have overcorrected to basically acting like he's god's greatest gift to mankind. People point to how meta his episodes can be, but I think other writers easily best him on that front on multiple occasions (particularly enjoyed by me so far on this rewatch: 3.10 "Dream A Little Dream Of Me", 4.04 "Monster Movie", 4.12 "Criss Angel Is A Douchebag"), and without leaving their meaning so up in the air that you don't even know what the hell they were actually trying to tell you because there are two different completely incongruous narratives you could just as justifiably claim were the intended one. Some people may find that duality praise-worthy. I don't. I find it sloppy—and when I add in mediocre character work, I just land on the side of him being, at the very best, mid.

Add him in as showrunner, you have... at least two of my least favorite seasons (13 and 15). Add that he's a one-trick pony in terms of the Sam and Dean conflicts mentioned above that he continuously rehashes rather than come up with anything new or fresh, and the same conflicts between Dean and Cas being played out until they both die (shut UP I'm not talking about canon destiel as the alternative—I am literally just asking for more diverse conflicts). I can't say I understand what I''m supposed to find so impressive.

(Before anyone so much as breathes this near me, Berens also sucks and I am going to tear off your nose hairs if you start bringing him up as if disliking Dabb for some reason means wearing rose colored glasses about Berens. Berens can eat a whole cactus raw over "The Trap" alone.)

[autisticandroids]

kripke and dabb are the two showrunners most interested in saying something about masculinity and they are both trying to have a discourse on toxic masculinity but the difference is that kripke's thesis is "all the macho guys who shoved me into lockers in high school were all SECRETLY homos, while i, nerdy sensitive guy who got shoved into lockers a lot for being TOO SMART, am actually absolutely crushing pussy all of the time." different writers made different amounts of hay out of this, but it's his basic thesis. meanwhile dabb's thesis is "you can either fail at masculinity and become a pathetic pansy loser worthy of disgust and ridicule, or succeed at masculinity and become a violent sadistic sociopath who needs to be put down for other people's safety. there is no opting out of this race. die in the crab bucket." and honestly i like dabb's better it's more interesting and a lot less smug. kripke's is just trying to change who the winners are. dabb's is a fatalistic and negative idea of the whole system

[dotthings]

Here's the thing. While it's great to encourage an environment where different approaches and nuanced variances on the canon are welcomed and prompt more discussion, there comes a point where chronic negative misreadings set in, and it becomes an echo chamber. Projections. Bad faith readings. People unable to discern themselves from the characters' pov. People unable to discern between their fears on what the character's intentions/motivations are vs the character's intentions/motivations. Not all of this is on purpose. But there are some truly nihilistic, chronically negative takes, and bad faith takes, and this is something that has eaten the fandom since the beginning of the show. I'm referring here to something different than people getting pissed at a particular episode or arc--spn is imperfect and sometimes it is an aggravating text. There has to be room for criticism, and space made for people to disagree.

But room for criticism and space to disagree doesn't mean having to throw the doors wide open to every chronic bad faith, nihilistic, or highly negative reading that comes along.

There is such a thing as a canon and throwing spaghetti at the wall, and protecting it under the idea of "interpretation," when that is protecting chronically negative, worst faith readings heavily based in projections, isn't how media discussion actually should work. It gets to the point where certain chronic uncharitable readings get popularized and it results in a miserable environment where anyone who sees it differently gets driven out of fandom space after fandom space just for not hating the way others hate. It's not joyful. It's stressful.

It's not about Dabb era. It's not about S15. It's not about The Trap. It's that I've had to see this in spn fandom over and over and it's been there since Kripke era.

Just pulling out one example. The discussions over The Trap. Most takes, chronically, since that ep aired, have tipped over into either far too blaming about Dean, or far too blaming about Cas. I'm not sure which character has in fact gotten the worst most chronic unjust reading, I just know I've witnessed it in stereo, from the Cas stan side against Dean, from the Dean stan side against Cas.

It's nails on a chalkboard reading some of those takes. It was back when those seasons were airing and it is now, 4 years after spn has ended. It's a record scratch on the canon song, over and over and over. It's chronic.

And it is wrong. I'm just going to say it. Both sides have been wrong. And they are wronging both Dean and Cas and they are wronging the story told by a whole team of writers who cared about the story and the characters. I actually don't care that much what people think of me. I do have a right to assert myself there, and defend myself, but that isn't what this is about at the core.

I can't just shake this off.

Dean and Cas both deserve better and the story deserves better. They're both deeply complex characters, neither is a villain, neither is [insert whatever bad faith unfairly harsh distortion of their canon selves one side or the other tripled down in clinging to this time].

I have to triple underline how CHRONIC THIS IS. (Not just on Dean and Cas).

It's been in every era of SPN.

But right now late SPN is still a hot topic, it's the most recent, its ramifications are still rippling, it comes up most often in my orbit and pocket of fandom.

I am consciously trying to keep my own bitterness about the "antidabbnatural" chronic takes contained so it doesn't distract from the actual reasons I'm here and what I want to focus on, but sometimes it is really hard, it's like I'm never going to escape from it, and like, of course, people are allowed to be angry, at the characters or the creative decisions, but at a certain point it tips over into chronically nihilistic negative hot takes that leaves little room for anything else.

Maybe people who came in late also don't know just how bad it got during the airings of those final seasons, how much hatred there was, how many attacks there were on good faith meta writers.

I don't have spoons for it any more, so I insulate myself and curate really strictly. Even with all my curating, it's not enough. It's a cycle that's inescapable.

Can't do anything about what other people do or what their takes are on the canon, this isn't a tone police or oppressing people or saying they can't post whatever the heck they want. I'm saying I'm allowed to have feelings about it and react to chronically negative takes.

I also am fed up with people having to apologize for liking S12-15.

Anyone who doesn't like that I actually appreciate the work of the writers room and the end results that wound up on screen, that I don't hate that era, that I've had my own grievances with it, but also have with Carver era, Gamble era, Kripke era, is just going to have to cope.

And let me make this completely clear: Dean is my favorite. He's been my favorite since episode 1 aired. Dean's been the character whose pov I consider first since the beginning. That doesn't mean I don't relate to or feel for Sam or Cas's pov, this is me being realistic and honest about being a Dean fan--not in the sense that I only care about Dean, in the sense that Dean has been my heart center of this show, and the most dominant lens of my entry point into the story. Not the sole entry point. But my heart center. I've been an spn fan for almost 20 years. Dean is my very favorite. That doesn't mean I have to throw other characters under a bus and capitulate to what bitter Dean stans think I should capitulate to.

And one of the reasons I like the final seasons is Dean's arc.

It is because of Dean. It's not despite how Dean was treated, I like it anyway. It's because of Dean. Because of his storyline. Because of the compassionate, painful arc the canon took him through.

I have seen "antidabbnaturals" go off on why they hate those seasons and they shout about how Dean was portrayed, treated, and depicted, and it puts flames on the side of my face because they are being reductive and insulting. Not the canon. Stans. Or it's Dean stans or it's Cas stans, going on another bashfest against Cas or against Dean.

But I want to make this absolutely clear, my so-called "apologism" for those seasons isn't about Destiel. It's because Dean's story, most of all, that I find it compelling. There are things I wished had been done better, or more completely, things that got short-changed. Mostly that concerns the ending, and I'm also not saying there are no problems at all. But I'm absolutely exhausted from seeing Dean's arc attacked by "Dean stans" and I'm exhausted from the cycles of Dean bashing or Cas bashing and exhausted from writing/episodes I really love being ripped to shreds, chronically. Non-stop.

It went on for four seasons in a row of non-stop hate and 4 years after spn ended I recently got a reminder it's all still out there. It's not that everyone involved was being that chronic or that hateful, but there's always an inevitable chain reaction and it brought the old hatred to the yard. I had to block more accounts. I'm just so done with it.

Anyway, this is my personal perspective. What people do with it isn't my problem. But I really needed to say it.

[watching-sam-and-dean-again]

I just rewatched "Last Holiday" for the second time. It’s so bad that it makes me sad for what this show used to be.

This episode exemplifies a lot of how Supernatural goes off the rails by Season 15. I know some will argue that everything after Season 5 is not worth watching, but I disagree. And then others say that it’s just the Dabb era that is unwatchable. Well ... I agree more with that take, but there are some gems even in this arc, particularly in 14 (if I ignore Nick). But, Season 15 … it’s almost heartbreakingly bad in comparison to earlier seasons. The only upside to the season as a whole is that Sam and Dean are on good terms with each other throughout most of it.

Anyway, LH is just .. so bad. First, Dean essentially acts like a man-child mixed with a cartoon character. The man is 40, and if 26 year old Dean could see him now, I think he might beat his ass just on principal. The nightdress and night cap combo is just so so stupid. They give me second-hand embarrassment for Dean AND for Jensen. Him wearing this, or something similar to this, in Scoobynatural, which is a cartoon, is very different from him wearing it in real life. How do you take him seriously after this? The best thing about him in this episode is the talk he has with Jack about how he’s trying to forgive him (for blowing up his mother), but he’s trying. It’s honest and fair.

Next, Sam is put into a sweater-vest (this offends me personally) and sent off on a date with Eilean. I find her and Sam cute as friends, but aggressively uninteresting as a couple, so I’m not overly fond of this. He gets several finger nails ripped off, instead of just one like in "A Very Supernatural Christmas" because mythical creatures like to torture him this may specifically, I guess? The reason I don’t like this "callback" is that if forces me to think of that other holiday episode which is just so much better. And that makes me think of just how dumb this one is. So dumb. Like, I’m almost angry about how dumb it is, especially in comparison to the Season 3 episode. Remember Season 3??? Back then the show knew how to be ridiculous, creepy, heartbreaking (in a good way), and heartwarming all in one episode. During Season 3, Supernatural not only still had a soul, but it was vibrant and thrumming with life. Now … not so much. Finally, Jack is there too. And he’s stressed. I don’t have strong feelings abiut him in this episode, but I don’t have negative ones about anything relating to him in the episode, either. So that’s something.

Anyway, I could rant more, but this is honestly just making me sad.

If you like "Last Holiday" that’s fine. I’m happy for you. Please feel free to let me know why you like it (if you want to). But, it’s just really not for me. It just disappoints me so much because we know how good this show can be, you know? 😞

[mlobsters]

supernatural s11e17 red meat (w. robert berens, andrew dabb)

have a vague idea this episode is gonna be difficult to watch, didn't have the emotional fortitude to watch it last night

well, sam getting shot in the cold open sure would do it.

DEAN All right, well, we make a call and we put somebody on it. SAM Yeah, but... [He sighs, closes his laptop and looks at Dean]. We'll get him back. DEAN How? SAM I... I don't know. But we'll figure it out.

i feel like an asshole but i'm like, are we talking about cas? dunno what other dude he'd be distraught over. maybe it's my total lack of emotional connection with the character but i'm just very ???? literally whatever i'm expecting they're feeling about him, i'm always wrong. broken record on that.

s11e17 / s8e23

reminded of that little smile dean gave sam when he was wrapping his hand in the church. and it reminds me of being with my mom when she was dying in the hospital. we're gonna smile and be so positive and softer than we normally would, but also try to keep it light. (i'm not sure i have the emotional fortitude for this tonight either)

not quite sure i'll ever have it to watch sam die like this. this is awful. trying to talk myself into just finishing so i don't end up crying for an extended period of time today and another day.

BILLIE It's cute, though. You pretending you're trying to save Sam for the greater good, when we both know you're doing it for you. You can't lose him.

just saw this line in an edit recently and thought it was attributed to Death, no wonder i didn't remember it.

DEAN I'm asking you... I'm begging you, please. Bring him back. Bring him back and take me instead. BILLIE I'm not here to bargain with you, kid. I'm here to reap you. And the kicker is... Sam's not dead.

here's where i'm never happy with anything. despite the unhinged love and commitment of it all, this all is really veering into emotional torture porn for me. how can we make it the worst. and then a little worse on top of that. except instead of making me irritated, i'm just more sad and want it to be over. maybe this is one i won't be able to appreciate until i have some distance.

DEAN Michelle, this is gonna be very hard. But you will be okay. And, eventually... eventually you'll get back to normal. MICHELLE No, I won't. They said I could leave an hour ago. But... where am I even supposed to go? After everything we survived together... I watched the man I love die. There's no normal after that.

not sure what this pointed zoom into dean making the sad puppy face is about. we know he can't be normal when sam dies, he knows it too?? does he remember that year with lisa and ben? and now he has the threat of not only losing sam, that sam won't be waiting for him in heaven or anywhere else if he does die.

well, fortunately we have the production draft of the script linked in the wiki for this one so actually can get answer

so i mean.. ok. both watched their husbands die is what we're saying

DEAN So, that's it, huh? Two quarts O-neg, and you're good to go.

i thought we were treating abdominal gunshot wounds like the serious emergency they are but i guess not

SAM Hey, so, what did you do? When you thought I was dead? What did you do? DEAN Thought about redecorating your room [Sam chuckles], you know, putting in a Jacuzzi, a nice disco ball... really class up the joint. SAM Right, seriously. DEAN What, I, uh... I knew you weren't dead. SAM Right. DEAN I knew.

so i mean. sam not buying that, clearly. wonder if dean ever tells him

should remember to check for a script next time i have wonderings about what they're trying to convey with their faces (went to check if they had 11x11 because i was curious about that whole pining line, but wiki doesn't have one linked)

tonal shift after the like.. heavy focus on sam (mostly) dying very... graphic in swimming around in the pain and slow death and almost-murder of it all and then we're having dean kill himself (briefly) to try to take sam's place with no consideration of repercussions, to hey dude we saved (and tried to kill sam) is a werewolf and he changed and he's gonna punch through this cop's chest cavity in a pretty silly manner. so no moral quandary killing him either, look at that. weird. anyway, the woman who played michelle was really good in those emotional scenes

i'm wiped out.

[antigonewinchester]

13x19

Rowena starting her redemptive story by finally caring about her son when it’s too late. Deadbeat moms just can’t win.

13x20

SAM: What? DEAN: Not like I care about killing gods, okay? But this whole revenge kick? It's a waste of time. SAM: What if it's not? DEAN: You've seen it, Sam-- with me, with Dad. Revenge only ends one way-- ugly. SAM: Well, maybe it doesn't have to.

it’s both so frustrating & so fascinating how the writers refusing to reckon with Sam’s revenge arc shows up within the rest of the show, in a negative space, narrative lacuna kind of way. not even like they have something more interesting to replace it with, either; we just get the return to the “Dean is too overprotective/controlling of Sam” thread, like the same skipping record.

13x21

I recently listened to a podcast abt the history & influence of Homestuck (wait wait don’t leave yet--) where the hosts brought up the idea of the  “Marvelization” of media. essentially, it’s how Marvel movies/TV shows are focused on creating huge casts of characters and then bringing them together in “fun” ways, with this kind of storytelling used to create audience investment and increasingly common in mainstream franchise and even indie media.

Dabb era is definitely using this kind of storytelling - Mary comes back, and interacts w/ Sam and Dean and Cas! oh, look, here’s Gabriel again; him & Rowena having a quickie, isn’t that funny - and I remain pretty immune to its charms. this is part of my frustration w/ the Jack as a character & his storyline, because it’s about Jack becoming a part of the Winchester “family” in a forced & inauthentic way. I have & do enjoy meta/self-referential stories -- my favorite tv show is deliberately self-referential & cyclical -- but the Dabb era writing feels like the show is eating its own tale. like the writers are shaking shiny keys in front of the audience and hoping we won’t notice how shallow everything feels (and betting, perhaps, that fandom will gladly fill in the emotional depth so the writers don’t have to add it in themselves).

[bustyasianbeautiespod]

Episode 93 Transcript: That's Literally Lucifer, Dude

[intro guitar music]

G: Hello, it's Grey.

C: Hello, it's Crystal.

G: And this is Busty Asian Beauties, a Supernatural commentary podcast where I, someone who has seen this show many, many times...

C: And I, someone who only knows the show through social media, discuss every single episode of Supernatural from start to finish. Also, we are both Asian.

G: Both Asian! For today's episode, we will be discussing Season 5, Episode 11: "Sam, Interrupted," written by Andrew Dabb and Daniel Loflin, directed by James L. Conway.

C: None of these people should have careers anymore, [G laughs] I personally feel. Daniel Loflin's out at some point, right? [G: Yeah.] Like, I don't remember him. Only- Until Season 8? Well.

G: Isn't their next episode, like, fucking [overlapping] "Hammer of the Gods"? [G laughs] People will write anything!

C: No, they do "Dark Side of the Moon" first.

G: Yeah. Actually, this episode, you know how sometimes you're like, you don't know what is good and what is bad in media? [C: Sure.] I mean, like, for me, a lot of my- It's very rare that I'm like, "it's good" or "it's bad," except when, you know, we're podcasting about it, such as in Supernatural or Good Omens. Most of the time, it's like, "Did I feel a certain way watching it?" blah blah blah. That's the more, you know, that's the easier thing to respond to as a watcher of something, right? This one made me feel so much and all the feelings are so negative that, for a while, I was like, "Maybe it's not even that bad." [both laugh] Because it's like, "It made me feel so much!" but it is that bad, I think.

C: Yeah, it- I didn't enjoy it. It was a bad time. [G: Yeah.] How would we even evaluate it from a technical standpoint? Like, if the case was like, good? Like, it was, like, whatever. [laughs]

G: Yeah, like, there is a point where that's like, you can just ignore that. [laughs] Like, we have other pressing matters.

C: Yeah. Yeah. I agree.

G: The way we are gonna talk about this episode is gonna be a little bit different because, uh, I don't wanna talk about it. [both laugh]

C: Yeah. I'm not like, a huge- I don't really want to be describing every individual scene that happens either, [G: Yeah.] given that most of them are just sanist jokes.

G: Yeah, we're going to give, like, a general summary of the episode, and then we're going to talk about some things that we want to talk about, I guess. Yeah. So, what did you know about this episode before going in? There's definitely some scenes that are like, known, I think.

C: Yeah, I mean, the "boop" scene is known, but I don't think I knew it was in this episode. [G: The context of it, yeah.] Right. All I know was that it was a case in a mental hospital, and they got in by being patients, and that at some point Dean, is confronted with the fact that he's like, definitely an alcoholic.

G: Yeah. That's it?

C: Yeah, that's all I knew.

G: "Pudding!" That's like, a famous, like, gifset, I think. Or gif, I don't know.

C: What is?

G: "Pudding." Right? Like, when they said that.

C: I've never seen that.

G: Is that really? Damn.

C: What is it- What's the gifset that it's in?

G: It's not a [hard g] gifset. It's just one [soft g] gif. [C: Is it like a reaction [hard g] gif?] I don't know. Is it gif or jif? I'm so sorry. I still don't know.

C: It is either. There's a debate raging about it. The creators said it was jif, but I refuse to accept that.

G: Okay. Slay. Typical Crystal behavior, I guess. [both laugh]

C: Yeah, to me, the creators of gifs and Neil Gaiman are one and the same. [G laughs]

G: Yeah. Like, there's just one where it's like, Dean going, "Pudding!" and I think it's like, I've seen it around a bit, like, outside of Supernatural. Well, let's get into the episode, I guess.

C: [sighs] How are we plot-summarying it?

G: Well, I want to actually talk about the "Then" sequence. [C: Yes.] It's like, Ellen and Jo dying is the "then" sequence. And then-

C: [laughs] It goes from that directly into "Yellow Fever."

G: Yeah, where Dean is like, "We're crazy! We're hunting? That's so crazy!" Yeah. "We're insane!"

C: Yeah. Very sudden tone shift. Yeah.

G: So I guess it's supposed to refer to the fact that they are going to go insane this episode, [laughs] I guess.

C: I think it's to talk about how Martin is meant to set up something about how [G: Ah, yeah.] hunting is harmful to your mental health and will eventually catch up with you somehow, a plotline that they don't do anything good about.

G: Yeah. Cas is prominently in this "then" sequence, and by prominently, I do mean he has one line. [C laughs] And I'm pointing that out because Crystal has called me out on it before. [both laugh]

C: I just don't think that's what prominent means.

G: He's always prominent whenever he is in the fucking show. Yeah. I don't know. There's more stuff. There's more like- Oh, about Lucifer.

C: It's Sam being angry is what it's about.

G: Which is kind of like, why are they painting Sam being angry with Lucifer as like-

C: It's Lucifer!

G: That's Lucifer, dude!

C: Like, [laughs] have you heard of a little thing called Christianity? [G: Whole religion!] Many people are mad at that guy.

G: Whole religion is reliant on being on Lucifer, I think. [C laughs] Why is Sam suddenly so special? I understand that Sam is the specialest little princess in the world, but not for this. For other things!

C: Yeah. Like, I do think that yeah, he is angry. And I think that him being, like, quick to anger and quick to revenge is a big part of who he is in Season 1, at least. [G: Yeah.] But like, it's just odd to bring it back here and then also [G: At Lucifer, specifically.] do nothing about it. Yeah, in the end, he's like, "I was mad at you and dad," like, well, yeah, because like, your dad was abusive and like, Dean, like, although he had no responsibility to you because he was also being abused, like, he didn't like, help. Like, that's a normal thing to be mad about. And he was like, "And then I was mad at Ruby," like, literally makes sense.

G: Well, she betrayed you, so. [laughs]

C: Yeah. [laughing] And he's like, "And now I'm mad at Lucifer. That's so weird!"

G: [laughing] That's literally Lucifer, dude. He's about to possess you. What's happening? [C: Yeah.] It's the same deal where they keep on bringing up Stanford as, like, an evidence of something, and it's like, well, I mean, that's a completely reasonable-

C: Yeah. He's not really betraying his family or something? Like, he went to college to be a lawyer. Whatever! [G laughs]

-

G: Yeah. Well, okay. So the episode, it starts, like, in a fucking clinic, and Dean's like, "Oh, can you fix up my brother?" And then Sam starts talking about his life, like, real life, and the doctor's like, "Wow, interesting." And Dean is like, "Yeah. And the thing is, Sam shouldn't feel guilty about all of his actions, because it was Ruby's fault! Blah blah blah!" And then, you know, the doctor's like, "Get these two in there!"

C: Sam pronounces Castiel as CAS-tiel again during this scene.

G: Yeah! Why is that?

C: I don't know. Does Jared Padalecki not know-

G: He does it before in the past, too.

C: Yeah, he does it on the phone at some point, like- [G: Casteel.] CAS-tiel. It's weird! Whatever. I guess it's better than Caschell. [laughs] Or is it?

G: Excuse me?? What do you mean it's better than Caschell, the best pronunciation of Castiel ever?

C: Caschell's fun. CAS-tiel isn't. CAS-tiel feels like he's like, I don't know. CAS-tiel feels like he's like, the CEO of something, and, like, in a bad way because I don't think there's a good way to be a CEO of something. Caschell is fun. You're right. I take back what I said.

G: Thank you. There's like, a very ominous kind of like- ominous because of how cheery she is lady who does their checkup, and like, later on she's revealed to be the wraith. Honestly, wraiths are iconic in Supernatural. Like, we'll see them. We'll see them.

C: Right. I feel like I have seen, like, the brain that's been sucked of everything like, in multiple gifs, and yeah, not just from this episode.

G: Yeah, I mean, I'm not actually sure we see a lot of the brain. We see a lot of the hand thing for sure. The spiky thing.

C: Mm-hm. Remember when she like, has a fight scene where she puts her hand spike away in order to start fighting? Like, what was that about?

G: Well, because it's sensitive. [C: Oh, okay.] And it's just for piercing. It's not, like, a slasher thing, which is [C: Alright.]- So she puts it out when she's about to pierce Dean's head, right? And she extends it when it doesn't reach him. So true! [C: Yeah.] It's so fun, though, like, really, when he like, snapped it off, like, I thought that was fun. [C: That was fun, yeah.] Yeah. I don't know. They go in.

C: She infects them with [G: With something.] what they call "crazy" later by doing a prostate exam.

G: Yeah. Yeah. Inside, like, they meet Martin, and I do want to linger on Martin a bit. He is- like, they're very vague on his backstory. All I know is something-

C: Yeah, he and John were hunting buddies.

G: Yeah. And they were in Albuquerque. Well, he was in Albuquerque. Where is Albuquerque?

C: I think it's in New Mexico. I think there's an airport there.

G: Uh-huh. No, yeah. I've definitely heard that place before. So that means it's- but I've heard many places in the United States, so that could mean anything, honestly. They were in Albuquerque, something went wrong, and then he checked himself into this institution.

C: Right, so he's been here for, like, [G: A while, yeah.] at least... three years? Is that how math works? Probably four, 'cause, I'm assuming that he and John were hunting, and that ended before Season 1. So five years? That's how math works.

G: It's been a while, yeah. [C: Yeah.] The way he is portrayed is, he is clear-headed, but when hunting gets brought up, he gets jittery about it. [C: Yeah.] There's a scene later where they're trying to convince him to hunt with them, and he was like, "No, I don't want to. Like, it's bad for me. I don't want to," and this is-

C: Yeah, he mentions that seeing dead bodies specifically is like, difficult for him.

G: Yeah. This is painted as something that is so unreasonable and annoying. [C: Yeah.] And Sam did this-

C: They're like, "What? You're such a coward!" But, I mean, they also called Sam a coward for that.

G: Ugh. Oh my god! [C laughs] But like, they painted forcing Sam back as, like, a bad thing, right? [C: Did they?] It had to be something Sam chose for himself.

C: I mean, but it's like, he chose it because all the people trying to get him to come back were right.

G: Yeah, okay, yeah. So this just like, Supernatural's perspective on the thing, I guess.

C: Yeah, the whole, like, "We just need everybody on board, and if you're like, capable of hunting, then you have to, or else you're evil," or I don't even know what they're going for. But yeah. [G: Yeah.] He is portrayed as a coward for having trauma around dead bodies. [laughs]

G: Well, the murders have been- Oh, we see the murder, actually, at the beginning of this obviously.

C: At the beginning, yeah. There's a monster that seems to come out of the grates, is the POV of the woman whose death we see at the beginning, and then it comes out at night, and then people are found dead in the morning, seemingly by suicide. [G: Yeah.] And this happened to a few people so far, [G: Yeah.] but the concerns of the patients regarding this have been wholly dismissed by everyone on the staff.

G: Yeah. And, yeah. [C: It's so weird.] I mean, they are hammering in the like, "These doctors are terrible," or this one doctor, I guess, is kind of shitty.

C: But what seems to be hammered home is just that like, he's wrong because he's wrong about the monster not existing, when it's like, I think that the issue is that him being this dismissive and like, smirking at Dean when, like, he thinks that Dean is, like, sane, and Sam isn't like, while Sam's talking about the apocalypse- Like, he's just a bad doctor, even if the monster wasn't real.

G: And like, the way he talks to Sam- he is not a monster when that was happening, right? He's never the monster. [C: Yeah, he's never the monster.] When he was like, threatening Sam that like, [laughs] "If you cause trouble, we will put you in maximum security person equivalent of a mental hospital." It's like, well. [C: Well.] It's- I don't know. Shitty guy.

-

C: Sam gets taken away to group therapy away from Dean because the doctor calls them "dangerously codependent," which is true, I think. [G: Yeah.] One of the patients is trying to talk about the monster, but he gets shut down by the doctor. I think it was just like, the doctor sucks because the guy just like, says a few times that there's a monster, and then the doctor is like, "I'm gonna call the orderlies on you," like, [G: Yeah.] "Shut the fuck up!" Yeah. So just a lot of him just being a dick, but it only being portrayed as wrong because he's wrong about the monster. And it's just like, okay, like, you thought that these were suicides. If, like, what? At least- what? Three, four patients in the last week in like, your mental hospital where you're supposed to be making them feel better about their lives [G laughs] kill themselves, like, maybe you need to re-examine how you're running things around here.

G: And also just, like, from, you know, if he's not aware that there is actually a monster. If one of your patients is, like, "Somebody killed four other people and painted it as a suicide, and they're gonna come for me next," [laughs] like, I think you should do something about it!

C: Yeah. [laughing] Like, telling that guy "Shut the fuck up" is like, not the way, bro.

G: It's like, you know. I understand that, you know, especially here- Like, I don't know about the United States. I'm sure it's also horrible, but especially here, it's like, there's so few resources, so few whatever. I mean, there's an uptick right now of, like, people who are graduating as psychologists. Fun, I guess. But there are so few resources and so few facilities here to deal with mental health patients, and especially, like, the inpatient type of dealing with patients, right? So I think a part of me, there is, like, a sort of like, "You cannot demand-" Well, not that you cannot demand better, but like, I understand that, like, they're understaffed, they're under-facilitated, blah blah blah blah blah. And that is, like, an argument I hear around a lot, and, I don't know. Like, a lot of my perspective is, uh, I don't give a shit? [C: Yeah.] I mean, obviously, it's like, true, and that does affect the kind of service that you get for these people. I think part of me is also like, "Well, somebody has to advocate for, like, the other side," I guess, [C: Yeah.] and that's the stance I have taken on in my life so far. [C: Yeah.] Yeah, so, I don't know. Just putting it out there, I guess.

C: Yeah. Dean meets a doctor who is like- I don't know how to describe her.

G: Who is like, [laughs] a hot woman.

C: Yeah, she's like, a hot woman. And like-

G: She's cool and everything.

C: He's tried to flirt with the nurse earlier and also this doctor, but neither of them act on it, which is good, but also like, she's a hallucination, and the nurse is a wraith, so, yeah. [both laugh] She's hot. She's cool. She seems to be like, good at getting to the bottom of him without like, being dismissive in like, the way the other doctor is, and they, like, trade questions back and forth where she asks about him, and he asks about the case, and later, it's like, of course, the only person on staff who seems slightly competent isn't an actual employee. [G: Yeah.] We learn a few things about Dean, which ,I guess, first, that he has about 50 drinks a week, and second, that he's never been in a relationship for longer than two months. Which- Cassie was one month? Was that what their backstory was?

G: Perhaps so. I'm not sure. [C: Yeah.] It is kind of crazy that two months is long-term.

C: Mm. What would you define as a long-term relationship?

G: I don't know. Like, maybe six months?

C: Okay. Yeah, for me, I either alternate between three months or one year. [G laughs] Like, I don't really know. But yeah.

G: I think by two months, you're still, like, in the [C: Honeymoon phase?] growing pains age, or like, you know, honeymoon stage, I don't know. Depends, I guess. [C: Yeah.] I feel like if you know each other before you get together, the 2 months is the growing pains stage 'cause you're trying to readjust, recalibrate, etc. If you just meet, that's the honeymoon stage. So there we go.

C: So after this we meet a character named Wendy, and [laughs] it's horrible that she exists. [G: Yeah.] Her role is to play, like, a red herring in the case because basically, like, the trajectory of this is that Sam and Dean both realize that, like- Or at least Dean's having hallucinations. Sam- What's Sam's thing? Is he also having hallucinations?

G: I mean, yeah, later on.

C: Yeah, I forgot. Okay.

G: He punches, like, people.

C: Right, the air. Yes. So Sam and Dean are both having hallucinations, and, like, other symptoms of mental illness later, and they realize that the wraith who they're hunting must be infecting them in order to make them, as they say, "crazy." So like, and they think that the infection happens through touch or saliva or something. So the point of Wendy is for them to think briefly that she's the wraith. However, the extent of her character is that she shows up in the hallway with no warning and makes out with Dean, and she's like, a hot woman. And then later she does the same thing with Sam. And, like, Dean's into it, but Sam tells him that he shouldn't pursue that because- the reasoning seems to be that Wendy can't meaningfully consent, which I don't think is true. So yeah, like, all of her scenes are showing up to make out with each of them one time each, and then being found dead in her room. [G: Yeah.] So that's her. Great.

G: She lives, though.

C: Yeah, as far as we're aware. The guy who was talking in group ends up being the next one to die. Sam and Dean do an autopsy and find out that his brain seems like, completely, like, black and sucked dry and calcified or whatever. [G: Yeah.] Okay, they almost get caught by the nurse.

G: And this is when the pudding stuff happens, [laughs] like, this is when the pudding gif is done. So yeah.

C: They talk with Martin and figure out that it's a wraith and that, you know, they get the right weapon for it eventually. [G: It's silvah.] It's silver, and you can figure out which creature is a wraith by checking in the mirror. They start discussing here why the wraith might have set up camp here, and their reasoning is just that, like, it makes sense. It's just that everyone here is institutionalized, so like, [G: People won't believe them, yeah.] they can't escape well, and also, people won't believe them about seeing a monster. However, later, when the wraith herself is explaining what's going on, her reasoning is completely-

G: She said, "It's yummy!"

C: Yeah, she keeps saying that that "crazy brains" taste the best because they have a lot of dopamine in then. Like, go find a jogger post-jog. Like, what are you talking about? [both laugh] I think, just the the way that this is presented later is very- The episode just uses the word "crazy" a lot [G: Yeah.] as their only descriptor of any mental illness. Like, they don't talk about like, anything specific except for, like, when the doctor mentions that Dean is schizophrenic. And like, the point, is just to like, draw this very clear line between like, "people who are sane" and "people who are crazy," [G: Yeah.] and "crazy" just means, like, anything that seems slightly out of like, the bounds of neurotypical behavior, and like, the whole, like, "crazy brains taste special" thing is just very- like, there are like-

G: There are also differences.

C: - some differences-

G: I would say there are many differences!

C: Oh, no, I meant- I was starting with like, "Yes, there's some difference in, like, chemical makeup like, if you have certain disorders," but like, the way that they flatten it and like, turn it into such a [G: They're all one and the same, yeah.] stark binary that's like- Yeah, it's all one in the same. Like, they mix stuff like Sam and Dean hallucinating with like, Dean, for one brief scene, for a joke, like, not wanting to step on the cracks on the tiles as like a "Haha! Isn't this a well known OCD thing?" Like, they're just throwing everything together without any thought to like, actual people who have mental disorders.

G: Yeah. I mean like, the whole point- Like, you know, later on, Dean is like, "Oh, I mean, at some point, we were probably gonna go crazy, me and Sam, but it's happening at the same time, so that means it's being caused by something else." So like, they're- One, they do refer to themselves in this moment as "going insane" or "crazy" or whatever. Two, there is an acknowledgement that this is a probable part of their future. [C: Right.] And yet, like, no aspect of the episode attempts to treat mental illness as like- with any complexity. [C: Right.] And mentally ill people as people. Like, nothing. I guess they- like, they attempt a little bit with Martin, I guess, and then fail completely. Maybe they don't even attempt. [laughs] I'm not sure. Like, it's just- It's so- This is like, the part of the episode that really upset me. [C: Right.] You're going to do an episode inside a mental hospital and then just, like, make fun of everyone and be like, "Oh, we're not like them," which is the whole point of the episode, I guess. "And if you do this, you're gonna be just like them, and that's so, so, so, so bad." And that's the point. [C: Yep.] Ugh! I know they're going to have mental hospital episodes in the future as well. I am curious into how they are going to do that.

C: The Kaia one or-? That was in rehab.

G: Sam was really in "Born-Again Identity" or- not "Born Again." "Born Again Identity." [laughs] I'm not sure.

C: Oh, right, right, right. Yeah, "The Born-Again Identity," I think.

G: "Born First"? No. It's not "Born Again."

C: I think it's "Born Again." Why wouldn't it be "Born-Again"?

G: I don't know. What does the word born-again mean for you? Is it also a religion?

C: Yeah, I mean, it's a religion thing. [G: Okay.] It's called "The Born-Again Identity."

G: Okay, [laughs] slay.

C: I think it's 'cause they find Cas again, right?

G: No, Sam is also happening. Sam is also in the episode.

C: No, I'm saying that it's probably called that because they find Cas again [G: Yeah, yeah, yeah.], and it's a play on- I think there's a movie or something called The Bourne Identity [G: Yeah.] where Bourne is like, a last name, B-O-U-R-N-E.

G: Yeah. Jason Bourne. They filmed in Manila. [C: Oh!] Yeah.

C: How- Do you know anything else about that movie?

G: Yeah, I watched it, I guess.

C: Oh. [laughs] How was it?

G: I don't know. They're jumping around, doing stuff. [C laughs] [C: Cool.] It's a fucking action movie. What do you want me to say?

C: [laughs] I don't know anything about it. I assumed it would have something to do with the plot of the episode regarding, like, amnesia or mental health, but I guess not.

G: No, I think it's just a pun. I think it's just a pun.

C: Okay. What's the identity in the action movie?

G: Him. He's identifying as Jason Bourne. [both laugh] I don't know. [both laughing] Oh, the movie that was filmed in the Philippines is The Bourne Legacy, so. [C: Okay.] It's a part of the Bourne series, which includes The Bourne Identity.

C: Okay. Well, anyway. Speaking of Sam, what seems to be the attempted beginning emotional core of the episode is that Sam tells Dean that he's worried about him because he hasn't been right since Jo and Ellen's deaths. [G: Yeah.] First off, they were Sam's friends, too. [G: Yeah.] Second, do they do anything with that?

G: Not at all. They don't ever acknowledge it, ever. I think, like, at the end, when Dean was like, "You gotta suck it up."

C: Right, "You have to repress all of your feelings." Okay, that was supposed to come back to that? Okay. So that was the first attempt at emotional core. Not really working. Second attempt at emotional core is that "Sam is angry at Lucifer, and that's wrong." We already talked about that.

G: So stupid, yeah.

C: Stupid, didn't work. Third, they seemed to be setting up something regarding Martin, and then they don't do anything. [G: Yeah.] The next scene is just that Dean sees Dr. Fuller, who's like, the male doctor who was leading group, in the mirror, and he appears to be a wraith. So when he and Sam and Martin meet back up, we have that scene that we talked about earlier, where they're like, "Martin, you should hunt with us." and he's like, "No, I can't," and is clearly shaken. And Sam says, "We know what happened in Albuquerque." And Martin stops and goes, "You don't know the half of it." And then we never learn what happened in Albuquerque! Not a single half of it. What was that about? [laughs] What was the woman of that exchange?

G: I don't know. Just to be ominous and mysterious.

C: Did something happen during filming? Like, it just feels like there's so much that got cut because there's so many dangling threads. [G: Yeah. I don't know.] Like, was there nothing planned for this? 'Cause there's a clear setup for, like, whatever happened in Albuquerque to be revealed at some point, and I don't think it would necessarily make the episode that much better [G: Stronger, yeah.] or stronger or anything, 'cause like, I feel like the point that they'd be making is just that like, "Oh, like, Martin's in here for a good reason. Like, he got trauma from, like, being brave and cool, unlike these people, who are just craazy." So like, I don't think it would improve the episode much, but like, it did seem like they were trying to work towards something [G: Yeah.] with Martin and his backstory.

C: Because they mentioned it prior to this, also! [C: Yes.] Like, they also say, like, "Oh. After Albuquerque-"

C: Yeah, "He hasn't been the same since Albuquerque." Like, what happened, bro? [laughs]

G: And if they're trying to, you know, make that parallel of like, "Just like Ellen and Jo" and "Dean hasn't been the same since then," it's like, well, try to do something about it.

C: Yeah, try a little harder. What's happening here?

-

G: So they go for the attack. Martin is actually there, or he shows up later, and basically, like, Sam attacks the doctor, and he slices him on the arm with a silver something, and he doesn't disintegrate completely. And then, like, there are two orderlies who come in, and Sam, like, demolishes these two. [C laughs] [C: Yeah.] You know, he goes for the kill, except Martin stops him because that's not the wraith. And then Sam gets sedated, I suppose, and then they bring him back to a room where, I don't know. He's there, I guess. Dean comes in, and they talk. I forgot, actually, what this conversation is. What is it about?

C: Just how Dean realizes that he was wrong about the wraith being Dr. Fuller, so he's worried that he's like, going crazy. And then Sam says that, "You're my brother, and I still love you," but he's also like, very drugged up the whole time. And the general scene is just played for humor, 'cause Sam's like, high. [G: Yeah.] And like, the premise of- Sam got checked in- Like, Dean in the intake appointment is talking about how like, "It wasn't Sam's fault that he started the apocalypse. He was just high." And like, he's currently in a situation where he's been forcibly drugged, [G: Yeah.] and tied to a bed in a way that's quite similar to the panic room in Season 4, I would say, and then there's another scene where he's in solitary where it feels even more similar to that, and they don't do anything with that? [G: Yeah.] It just seems like a very obvious parallel that you would discuss in some way.

G: Yeah, just because "It's funny! It's for comedy!" Oh my god. Like, later on, the scene that you pointed out, of like, Dean stepping on the tiles-

C: Trying to avoid stepping on the tiles, yeah.

G: Like, that was also played comedically, and like, I don't know. A bit of me was like, maybe Jensen Ackles is just missing the tone completely. But also, there was a director for this episode, and they could have directed it properly.

C: Yeah, I think it was meant to be played comedically.

G: So it was intentional that it was like this. And it was so frustrating. So frustrating. Because, like, you know, there's the ableist aspect of it, but also, like, story-wise, you could be doing something interesting here. Like, Sam and Dean are interesting characters, and [C: Some claim this.] especially, like, as you said, Sam's here. It is an interesting situation that he has been put, and instead of doing anything with it, it's just silly goofy time. And it's like, "Well, don't do it like that."

C: Right. "Isn't it funny how mental hospital patients get forcibly sedated because then they talk funny and boop their brothers' noses!" Like, no! [laughs] Incorrect. So that's a scene that is annoying.

-

G: So Dean starts, you know. He's walking the hallway. The lady doctor, like, stops him and to him, and then she starts talking a bit more with knowledge of what's happening. And Dean is like, "Oh, what are you really? What are you? What are you?" And then this, I suppose, janitor stops them, goes like, "Hey, stop all that." and points out that Dean is actually talking to nobody. And Dean, like, you know, does freak out about this because like, "Oh my god, I am actually going crazy."

C: Right. And also the the bent of the conversation with the doctor is just that, like, Dean feels responsible for everybody in the world and that like, he needs to save everybody, and that's like, a bunch of, like, pressure and guilt, blah blah blah, that he's putting himself under. I just really don't buy [laughs] any storyline like this in Supernatural where it's like, "You're so guilty about all the people you can't save," etc, etc 'cause it's like, so many people die on their cases while they're fucking around elsewhere, and [laughs] they don't feel bad about it. [G: Yeah.] Like, it's just specific people that they feel bad about dying. But whatever. I guess that's what they're going for.

We have the scene where Dr. Fuller comes in, and, as we've mentioned, threatens to put Sam in "a facility that is equipped to handle violent patients" if he has another outburst.

G: And then it's like, "And there, they won't be as niceys."

C: Yeah. "As me."

G: And also, the doctor was like, "I don't think you can get better because you're so angy!" [both laugh]

C: Like, you're a terrible doctor! Yeah, he goes like, "I think that, like, your delusions around monsters, like, that's fine. People learn to live with that. But like, your anger issues are incurable!" And it's like, well, at least you said that first sentence. But can we circle back to that second sentence? What? He specifically says that Sam- the look in Sam's eyes was like, "not human."

G: My god! [C: Fire- who? Fire this guy!] And this is just a dude! He's not even a monster!

C: Yeah, yeah. And like, the point is, like, the themes and motifs. But like, if you're setting something inside a mental hospital like, maybe you should think about what is like, [laughs] appropriate for the staff to be saying or doing. And like, if it's not appropriate, then, like, probably they should just be the monster. Or- it's not- Okay. Like, portrayal of, like, shitty staff at a mental hospital is like [both] is fine because, like, that is true. But like, it's the way that it's treated like this is like, [G: Yeah.] an okay way for him to talk to a patient, and like, in fact, good for him to tell Sam this so that he can come to realizations and change as a person. Like, that's the issue.

G: Yeah, like, I mean, this is why, like, you know, for a while, I was like, "Oh, I feel like shit. It must be an okay episode." Because, like, yeah, it's supposed to make you feel like shit. But I don't know, the specifics of how they do it-

C: Like, it' not really supposed to make you feel like shit, is the thing. Like, I think it's supposed to be mostly a lighthearted episode. [laughs]

G: Crazy! I don't know. Let's check reviews later. Let's check the reviews later. [C: Yeah.] Perhaps people have the same sentiment as we do.

C: Right. It's like, just the- We have "Asylum" in Season 1, and like, that one, like, the horror is around patient abuse, and like, the twist is like, the patients, when they killed that doctor, they were acting reasonably as a result of him, like, doing certain experiments to make them angrier and stuff. Like, the horror is tied into the mistreatment. Whereas here, like, the horror is completely separate. They suggest that, like, the structure of a mental hospital makes it so that it's easier to abuse and prey on patients, and then, like, the wraith shows up and completely nixes that. And then, like, the places where we see mistreatment, like, of Sam, like, that's not part of the horror. It's just like, "What an annoying obstacle!" But like, "This obstacle is only wrong because monsters are real, and we need to hunt it," and like, there's no feeling that like, if you did this to someone who wasn't Sam, that it would be wrong. Like, you know what I mean? [G: Yeah.] So yeah, that's the main bent of the episode that gets me riled up.

G: Yeah. Sam was allowed to go out. And also, the fact that they were like, "It's so bad that Sam beat up those orderlies," and the episode like, agrees with it, doesn't it? Like, the episode agrees with the whole like, "Sam is so sick in the head for being so mad. He beat up those orderlies." It's like, they've done that-

C: Yeah, while he was trying to kill someone he thought was a monster, yeah.

G: - many, many, many times. [C: Plenty.] And also, like, he's a giant man! [both laugh] He just moves around. He's so big.

C: Yeah. He takes a step, like, all your bones break. [laughs]

G: [laughs] I mean, I think that's a mean thing to say about Sam Winchester. No, but like, you understand what I mean, right? To paint it as "Sam is so monstrous." Why? Because he's big and, like, has years and years and years of combat experience? [laughs] I think this is completely normal for Sam Winchester. I don't know. It's just so stupid.

C: Yeah. I mean the funniest "Sam is too angry" moment is when he's trying to lockpick a door, and Dean's like, "Come on, hurry up," and then, like, he turns around, and the camera really focuses on his face when he tells- What does he tell Dean? Like, "Shut up"?

G: "Shut up" or something, yeah.

C: Yeah, and it's like, "Oh my god, Sam's so angry and mean in the moment," and it's like, all of us wished we could tell Dean to shut the fuck up.

G: Exactly. And then, I don't know. Sam, like, starts walking down, but when he gets there, Dean, like, tells him, like, I don't know. "You're actually a monster, and it's not about Ruby. It's you." And then people start beating him up, and then he fights back, and he starts, you know, punching around. And then as we go, we see that it's actually normal and a hallucination, and Sam gets taken away, and Dean is, like, in the corner. And they do, like, the- you know, like, the thing that they do with like, when they're trying to portray someone as losing their mind where they're like, twiddling their thumbs or something? [C: Right.] That's how Dean is being played right now. [C: Right.]

-

G: So Dean goes in to talk to Martin about it. And it's like, this scene where he keeps on being distracted from talking. But basically he's like, "Oh, it must be Wendy's fault." and also, "I don't know. Something's happening."

C: One interesting thing is that he thinks that- at one moment, he wonders if it's the ghost of John that's making [G: Yeah.] his brain act up. Which, like, that's fascinating. I don't think they meant anything by it in the episode besides, like, "What a funny line," but it's like- I don't- Why would Dean think that? What does he think John would want? What would John gain by doing this? Why does he think John's angry at him?

G: They out. The tiles thing happens here. Immediately, a woman screams, and then Dean just completely abandons this compulsion because the bit is done. The joke is already delivered, so it doesn't matter anymore.

C: Yup. Wendy's there with like, slit wrists, and the nurse is standing over her with, like, her wraith face, and like, [G: Her fingy.] her wraith finger thing. There's like, a spike that comes out of her wrist. And there's like, a fight scene, and the wraith heads out of the room and calls on two orderlies to go to Wendy's room, to like-

G: Subdue Martin.

C: To fight, to subdue Dean and Martin. And Martin basically offers to help hold them back and also look after Wendy as Dean goes after the wraith.

G: Yeah, 'cause Wendy is still breathing, like, she's still alive. [C: Yes.] And when the orderlies come in, Martin is standing over her, so that's- you know.

C: Yeah, like, it's going to look bad.

G: Really bad, yeah.

C: Yeah, though, I mean- it seems. Yeah, it's possible that they might end up blaming him for the deaths of all the other patients. He also attacks the two orderlies, which is like, something that they will absolutely punish him for in some way, and that is the last we see of him [G: Yeah.] for the entire episode. When they're escaping, they do not try to get him out, [G: Yeah.] despite knowing for sure that he's going to be punished severely.

G: Yeah, when they were running out, I was, like, looking at my screen, going like, "Go back!" [C: Because Martin, yeah.] because Martin is still there. And when Sam stops, I was like, "He's stopping because he's gonna go back in or he's gonna say, 'Hey, we should get Martin' or something." But no, he doesn't. They don't give a shit. And like, the only mention of him after this episode is for Dean to be like, "You don't want to end up like him, do you?" It's so horrible!

C: He's a much nicer and more pleasant person to be around than either of you. [laughs] I would rather end up "like Martin" than either of you. What are you even talking about?

G: My god. It's such a big- To me, like, okay, fine. The Winchesters think crazy people are not people. Whatever. They have been long established as very loyal to the hunter pack [C: Yeah.], very loyal to all the people who have helped them or John in the past. Martin threw himself at these orderlies so that Dean can go and save Sam, and is like, taking the fall for it, basically. And like, it is not, like, painted as anything that they are to be grateful for, like, at all. [C: Yeah.] Like, okay, fine. Leave him there. I don't know. Whatever. It's just like, so ungrateful! It's because they don't view him as part of the pack anymore, as part of the hunter pack anymore. Like, they just think he's like, a pathetic loser, I guess.

C: I guess. Even though he did overcome, like, his fears or whatever to help you and everything [G: Yeah.], so like, the main reason you thought he was a loser or whatever is gone. But I guess the actual main reason is that he's mentally ill, so that will never change in your minds. Great.

G: Yeah. And it's like, of course it's going to bring up negative feelings, like, the idea that like, "Oh, we have, like, somebody who's part of the community or part of the family or whatever, but like, it's so embarrassing! They're mentally ill!" And it's like, my god, man! Because that is how it is portrayed, right? Like, "You don't want to be like Martin because Martin's like, embarrassing" and whatever. [C: Yeah.] And in a way, they're using that mindset- Not "in a way." Like, they are using that mindset to justify leaving him behind. He's either gonna go to that maximum facility whatever, yeah, that the doctor was talking about, or to prison. [C: Yeah.] And it's like, you're just going to leave him in there? My god. I mean, the Winchesters-

C: There seems to be just the idea that, like, "We can't break him out because, like, the 'real world' needs to be like, kept away from him." Like, "he can't handle it," or like- I don't know. "He could be a danger to the outside-" I don't know. But there is just a "He can't exist outside of this facility, so like, if that means that he's gonna end up in prison or, like, in like, a maximum security facility that probably abuses its patients like crazy, then like, yeah. Whatever. We can't put him in the outside world!" Like, you're- No. Incorrect. The end.

G: Yeah. So horrible.

C: Yeah. Horrible. He checked himself in, too!

G: Yeah. He was not- I don't think we are to believe that he was causing any trouble for anyone before he checked himself in.

C: Yeah. And even if he didn't, like, they shouldn't have left him behind. But it'd be like, "Maybe we need to discuss, like, if there's other treatment that we want to get him under a new identity" or whatever. But yeah.

G: It's just, none of these people are treated like people. Martin is the only one we actually talked to. Wendy, not particularly. [C: Yeah.] And those are the only two people aside- I guess also the person who was like, "I saw it. I saw it." That's the person we see. It's just, my god.

-

C: The wraith enters Sam's room. He's been put in like, solitary and a padded room, and like, tied to a bed. And she starts trying to feed on him. And this is when she says that "crazy brains taste better because of all the hormones and chemicals in them." She says, "And the crazier they are, the better they taste."

G: What the fuck is the metric here?

C: What does that mean? [laughs] [G: Slay.] Yeah. What does that mean? Dean comes in to try to defend Sam, and there's a fight sequence where he defeats her by- She thinks she has him, and she's going to feed on him, so her spike comes out, but then he breaks it off, she starts bleeding a lot from it, and then he kills her. But like, her body, like, doesn't change. She still looks like a human nurse.

G: Yeah. And also, she doesn't disintegrate. She's just on the floor.

C: Right. So I was almost waiting for a twist where it was like, "It wasn't even her." But no, it was her. But like, nothing happens to her body, I guess. And then they run out. I guess it's possible that most of the deaths- Well, not all of them can be blamed on Sam and Dean, because most of them happened before they got here. But it's possible that since they escaped, and it's clear that like, they killed this nurse, that Martin will only be blamed for attacking the two orderlies? [G: Yeah.] I don't know. I also don't know what the camera situation is in this mental hospital, so, yeah.

G: I mean, you know, this wraith got around, so [C: That's true.] probably not that good.

C: Yeah, probably not that good.

G: I mean, she was attacking inside rooms, and they shouldn't have inside rooms, right?

C: I don't know what the norm [G: Law, yeah.] is around that, yeah. But yeah, so they escape, and they have a final conversation where Sam's like, "The wraith was right!" And Dean's like, "No, it's fine, and also I need twelve drinks," which I think is supposed to be a continuation of the like, "He does have a substance abuse problem regarding alcohol, but we're not going to do anything about it." But yeah, you know, Sam's just like, "I have anger problems, 'cause I was mad at John, Lilith, and Lucifer." [laughs] I think all reasonable people to be angry at.

G: I understand Sam's, you know, "I'm mad at everything." Like yeah, that is a problem. Like, being mad is not a pleasant feeling, [laughs] so if you're mad all the time, like, that's not good.

C: Yeah. If his point is like, "Being angry all the time, like, decreases my quality of life, or like, makes my judgment worse in like, important situations," like fine. Okay. But I feel like all he's going off of was the doctor being like, "You'll never go get over this, and also, you didn't look human when you were angy!" Like, that doesn't mean anything.

G: Yeah, I don't know. I don't want to diminish, like, the anguish of having anger issues. [C: Right.] It's just that the way Supernatural does it is so fucking stupid. [C laughs] Everything they do is so stupid! What if Andrew Dabb and Andrew Loflin are terrible writers? [C laughs] We have considered this multiple times, and it's true, but, [C: Yeah, they are.] let's consider it again.

C: Consider it true.

G: Ugh, and then "Hammer of the Fucking Gods." Oh my god!

C: Yeah. Yeah. [G: Well.] Yeah, Dean tells him like, "It doesn't matter." Like, he goes, "What are you gonna do? You gonna take a leave of absence? You gonna say yes to Lucifer?" The first one, leave of absence, is that just like, Sam quitting hunting as he did earlier? [G: Yeah.] Okay, so he's like, "Well, sorry about your anger issues. But since you're not gonna say yes to Lucifer or quit hunting, you just have to take all that crap and bury it so that we don't end up like Martin." This is truly the season of Dean, giving absolutely shit mental health advice. Remember when he told Bobby, "If you ever bring up being suicidal again, like, I hate you" [laughs] or whatever? [G: My god.] And it's like, I get why this is like- You're in survival mode, it's the apocalypse, whatever whatever. Like, the people watching this episode are usually not in survival mode during the apocalypse. [laughs] Like, you have to keep that in mind when you're having Dean dish out the world's worst advice. [laughs] But yeah, and then they they drive away, leaving Martin behind to face the horrors. The end!

G: Yeah, well. [C: Bad.] What did we think about this episode? Multiple terrible things in many layers, yeah.

C: Yeah. I have nothing but complaints about it, but I have already said all of them.

-

G: Best Line/Worst Line? [laughs] [C: Ah!] Why have we trapped ourselves to saying a Best Line for any, honestly, is the question.

C: I think I found the initial scene where they're just talking to Dr. Fuller and trying to get into the hospital by talking about their live straightforwardly, I feel like I did find that a bit amusing.

G: You know, when Dean does the whistle and then twirls his fingers, like, "crazy!" I was like, [laughs] "That is something Dean Winchester would do." So yeah.

C: Yeah, it is something Dean Winchester would do.

G: Worst line, I think, uh, everything? I don't know.

C: Yeah, I think all of them.

G: I really do hate when Dean goes like, "You're gonna bury it, you're gonna forget about it, because that's how we keep going, that's how we don't end up like Martin." [C: Yeah.] Hate it!

C: Shut the fuck up, Dean.

G: Writer sins? Spread those sheets.

C: They've managed to mostly dodge our three main columns, but there is misogyny in the form of Wendy.

G: Yeah, I think that's it. 2? 'Cause, I mean, she does show up 2 times.

C: It's true. [laughs] 1 point per time.

G: Racism and homophobia is a 0. W have to put a fucking- Didn't we have an episode where we put like, honorary column?

C: Yeah, I think "When the Levee Breaks." Yeah, we just put +5 ableism in a column that did not have a header.

G: You know what? This also-

C: +10. [laughs] Let's just go beyond-

G: But we have a 1-5 rating! We have a 1-5 rating. We have to respect the fucking rating.

C: Okay, yeah. Let's respect the fucking rating.

Alright. IMDb. I don't think this is particularly enjoyed by the populace.

G: I don't know. I hope not. I would say, perhaps, this is an 8.3.

C: Okay, I'm looking at how fallen idols got a 7.9. And that was a lot of Paris Hilton hate, so I'm gonna go 8.0.

G: Okay, let's check. [C: Okay.] Hm. It's an 8.5.

C: Oh. Well, I don't like that.

G: Yeah, they think it's funny. [C: Okay.] This one is disappointed with the episode. [C: Because of the ableism?] There was a break before this one. "Storyline was ill-conceived, well played out, a few weak attempts of humor."

C: "I love how the script writers choose an attractive woman as Dean's antagonist, the reversal of fortunes where Dean uses his looks and personality on women." Sure. [G laughs]

G: Diversity win. They literally said diversity win.

C: Yeah. And like, she wasn't even a real woman. Like, he made her up, so like, she was a man in some ways.

G: No, the wraith!

C: I guess the- Oh, the wraith being the main antagonist. I thought they were talking about the doctor, 'cause the wraith was like, both of their antagonists. The doctor was Dean-specific, but whatever. I guess they were being Dean-centric.

G: I mean, that’s it, really for this episode of Busty Asian Beauties. Next week, we will be discussing Season 5, Episode 12: "Swap Meat"! Leave us a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts.

C: At least Sam is gonna call a teenager a virgin. I don't think it'll be that funny. [G laughs] [G: Yeah.] Well, follow us on social media! We are on Tumblr at bustyasianbeautiespod.tumblr.com. Our official tag is #BABPod, B-A-B-POD. Thanks to everyone who's donated to our Ko-Fi at ko-fi.com/bustyasianbeautiespod, which is where our outtakes live, and check out our merch at babpod.redbubble.com.

G: You can email us any feedback, comments, or inquiries at bustyasianbeautiespod@gmail.com. See you guys next time! [both] Bye!

[guitar music]

[dustydreamsanddirtyscars]

I haven’t posted anything in ages...

...but given this is the very last season of SPN I sat down to watch the first two episodes of the finale season and well, it’s never been a secret that I absolutely despise Dabb’s showrunning - it really has been showruining if we’re being honest here - but what these two episodes confirmed to me is that there seems to be not a single capable writer left on the team and well, Dabb surely isn’t a stellar example or role model in that regard (seriously, it will never not absolutely baffle me that Dabb wrote some of my favourite episodes during Carver era when I’m comparing them to his work right now).

Anyway, I just feel sad. I have felt saddened beyond belief, betrayed and enraged throughout pretty much all of Dabb’s run and even stopped watching altogether because he managed to turn the show into a bad parody of itself. But I was nursing this tiny little bit of hope that maybe for this final season Dabb & Co. would get a grip and give the characters, the actors and yes, also the fans (though of course tastes differ and that’s cool - objectively speaking though these last seasons have been painfully bad in terms of writing) what they deserve. A well written farewell. Save to say that’s apparently off the table judging from these two episodes.

I haven’t felt angry about anything relating to SPN for a while, because well, I fell out of love with the show due to poor quality in writing and showrunning but stuck around because I freaking loved the characters, loved DEAN and always will, but dear would this show have deserved better, would have Dean deserved better, would have Jensen and Jared and all the actors who have been part of the show throughout the years deserved better. It’s a tragedy. And people who have been following me on here for a while and remember the times when I wrote countless metas each week, because the show was just so damn good, know that I love me some tragedy, but not like this. Not this way. I am in mourning for a show and a cast that would have deserved a final season that is deep, that is meaningful, that is atmospheric and emotional and not bland and washed out and just painful to watch because you can realize that half the people on screen also seem to feel kind of embarrassed that this is how it ends.

I know this will not be received well by many people - to be honest, I don’t care. I am just beyond saddened and sorry for an actor like Jensen having to suffer through the worst writing this show has seen in all it’s time in the final season. I dearly hope that maybe in the end by some miracle they’ll manage to pen a satisfying ending, but seriously, what are the odds? I’d have countless ideas which way they could go, but with Dabb at the helmet it’s useless trying to navigate a map, because he himself has no clue what those fine lines called streets and roads even are.

I’m sorry, but I’m sad. I’m angry. And I wished more than ever that SPN would have ended with the scene of the glowing Samulet in Dean’s hand in S11. I have long treated that episode as the ending of SPN, because what is currently running on tv labeled as “Supernatural” has absolutely nothing in common with the show I once fell head over heels in love with.

[mygallimaufry]

What Taylor Cole, the actress who plays Sarah Blake,

said in an interview about being invited back to Supernatural in Season 8:

Now, all the writers, except for Dabb, have changed since then.

But, in case you didn’t know, Dabb wrote the episode she was brought back and killed in.

So, you know that tendency the show seems to have where is brings people back just to kill them,

Or do character assassination?

This may be why.

[zmediaoutlet]

@winchesterprincessbride replied to your post “I was heartbroken to learn that SPN is going to end after S15... and...”

@zmediaoutlet Just curious....what are you (barely) hopeful they will fix? Just curious if our lists match, LOL

I don’t really have a ‘list’ necessarily, it’s just...

In the movie Trainspotting, there’s this scene where Spud sleeps over at his girlfriend’s house and accidentally shits the bed. Then, when he carries the sheets downstairs to try to hide the evidence, a Humorous Snafu ends with shit being splattered all over the girl’s parents and the breakfast table. In this analogy, the executive producers and the writing team are Spud, the writing of the plot arcs is the shit, and we’re the poor breakfast table, splattered and confused.

That’s mean. And yet, that’s how it has felt, the last few years. Plans half-made, abandoned half-done. Characterizations thought of and then not followed through, at all. Random one-offs that seem clever and then aren’t referenced again. It’s kind of embarrassing and cringey, in the same way as that Trainspotting scene--like, really? This is what you chose to do? Was it on purpose? How on earth could it have truly been on purpose?

So, s15, knowing the end date, I hope there will be a real plan. Arcs that can satisfyingly conclude. Interesting things to pluck at and change. I haven’t watched yesterday’s episode yet, but I understand that Mary bites it--that will help. No more halfbaked characterization to forget for months at a time and then come back and pretend it mattered. Nick’s gone, too, I hope permanently, and that will help a lot too. No more Lucifer nonsense. I want--Sam and Dean, and a conclusion that feels earned and not haphazardly stumbled into. That’s really it. That’s the entirety of my list. 

I’m a big believer in any premise being believable, successful, etc, as long as you earn it. You bring back Mama? Okay, fine. You make Lucifer have a kid? Sure, okay. It can be made to work, as long as you put in the effort to do so. That doesn’t seem to be the writing model, this last little while. Maybe, hopefully, if everyone’s aware that this is the last hurrah, real effort will be made.

Honestly--in retrospect, President Whoever of the CW saying that they’d get an automatic renewal as long as Jared and Jensen wanted to keep going, that itself might have been the death knell. After all: if there’s no reason to try, why try?

[rosemoonweaver]

🔥(thoughts on different Supernatural seasons/storylines if you want a prompt for saltiness! Otherwise just go where the salt takes you ;D)

I don’t like the Dabb era. I just really, really don’t. I don’t see why so many people in a certain circle seem to think he’s some kind of genius when he drops plot threads all the time and bumbles his way through the B-plot and saves all the ammo for the end. Like... it’s just freaking lazy imo. Michael and Dean should’ve met waaay earlier in the season for the finale to have any impact. Yeah, we’re getting something we were kinda introduced to seasons ago, but there should have been more build up to Dean actually saying yes instead of it just happening right at the end. Jack’s storyline just kinda... fell apart. I get they wanted to go with a nature v nurture thing but they didn’t have the juevos to do it so Jack stayed pretty static and that was... meh. Don’t get me wrong, I like Jack, but he stayed a cuddly little baby and hasn’t grown. I wanna see him grow. Asmodeus was a total failure as a plot. He did nothing interesting and the poor actor got stuck chewing scenery the whole time. And all this doesn’t even touch the fact that they whole BMoL thing is still, technically, unresolved because congrats they got driven out of the country but they still exist and are still doing exactly the same thing they had been. Has saving the world become “saving the world only if it’s in America because anything else is hard and we don’t have the frequent flier miles”? 

So yeah. Not a fan of Dabb era. 

Unpopular Opinions

[clairenatural]

i usually don’t agree with “they woobified cas in the later seasons >:(” takes because i think he softens naturally and becomes a father and still maintains his badass power when he needs it and in general it’s natural character development BUT. we should have seen 5x18 “I rebelled for this” levels of anger about jack at the end of s14/early s15

[naruhearts]

I know people have said this already but--

Nothing is more painful, more appalling, more unceasingly gross, than Dean Winchester dying alone in a barn without his Found Family other than his brother. Nothing is more insulting than Dean not being able to live the long, natural life Cas wanted him to.

Dean Winchester died without being able to let Cas know that he always loved him in return. Always. 

Dean Winchester didn’t even get to live with the love of his life for eternity in his own Heaven after long, extensive, exhausting years of pining for Cas -- after miserable self-loathing years of believing he was never worthy of Cas’ love. 

When Dean Winchester finally gained true self-acceptance, FREE WILL (which Cas’ love for Dean was entrenched in), and the sheer sense of happiness he was bound to achieve -- which the narrative told us it was leading to, mind you, by incorporating character growth and development and Jungian elements and constant introspection -- he lost his life. 

The greatest love story ever told was REAL, and it was OBLITERATED in 60 mins. 

[norahastuff]

I’m not even saying anything about Cas or Dean and Cas’ relationship, that’s a whole separate issue, but really? This is what they did to Dean? He has no dreams, wants, desires or personality outside of Sam? All those years of character building, of him growing into and accepting the person he always was, of him learning to accept that he deserves to have good things and be his own person -  in the end none of it meant anything? 

The finale didn’t take into account anyone’s arcs or character growth.  I mean there’s barely one moment I can point to and say this feels like a culmination of something the story has been building to for 3 episodes, let alone an entire series.

It sounds weird to say, because of course I was disappointed that he wasn’t in this episode, but really Cas is the only one who got an ending that in any way felt like a conclusion to all that came before. It payed off a multi season arc and who he was as a character and everything he’s been through, and I’d once again like to thank Berens and Misha (and Jensen) for that.

[dyed-red]

just saw a gifset set during s6 where dean confronts soulless and bobby about the fact that they left him in the dark for an entire year about sam not being in the cage still, and my issues with gamble era were top of mind i didn’t want to be super negative in the tags of OP’s gifset so here we are --

i can’t abide gamble era exactly because of shit like that scene. 

so, for anyone interested, a ridiculously long complaint post about s6-s7 under the cut.

so what’s my issue? i can’t abide how gamble’s era prioritizes plot points above characterization.

soulless never provides a halfway adequate reason for not going to dean sooner, and never provides a halfway adequate reason for why he goes to dean when he does at the start of s6. it’s been a long time since i watched so i’m fuzzy on some particulars but i know that it just sort of amounted to “i didn’t feel like it before but you’re the best partner and i prefer working with you”

and that rings so hollow because soulless isn’t the type of guy who would not go straight to dean if he preferred him as a partner because hey, no guilt about ruining his little domestic bliss, right? but also if he thought dean would be a nuisance and hold him back from this thing he enjoys and is preferring to do (hunting), then his reasons for scooping up dean are also shallow because why now? if he needs someone to watch his back because he doesn’t trust samuel and the campbells surely there are other options than his overprotective brother who will be suspicious of his lack of sleep and will want to protect and smother him?

(edit: came back to add he does give/imply a reason -- dean would be baggage, essentially like  described here -- and he returns to dean by happenstance through a case. but that still fails to satisfy me because like -- he could have avoided dean if he had half a reason or desire to?)

it always just felt to me like gamble threw a year in there to inflate angst because it fit the story she wanted to tell, rather than fitting the characters and their actual motivations. and that’s one of the things that frustrates me to no end about writers. fitting characters to a story you want to see happen doesn’t work if those characters have pre-established motives and desires and thought processes you have to work with. you need to sort out their thoughts and feelings in more depth for why and how they would get to where they are and why this chain of events would happen, and s6 has always felt to me like it doesn’t care about that, it just cares about getting us to where we’re supposed to be (where the writer wants the story to get) without spending near enough energy on sorting out realistically how and why the characters would get there.

(maybe overstating my own ability as a writer, but i’m of the opinion you can always get characters to whatever end you want, no matter how far-fetched that end, you just have to understand them well enough to know what would lead them there, and then adjust and tweak the conflicts and setting accordingly. but if you’re impatient or unwilling to dig around in those questions you just brute-force it, and it ends up shallow)

anyway if you want further proof of what i’m talking about and why i think gamble ultimately misses the mark and has a certain laziness in how she pushes characters into story beats that don’t fit -- look no further than bobby. 

bobby - bobby - who kept his home open to sam and dean, who watched dean sell his soul for sam and who choked up holding dean’s face after he did, who put sam in a panic room to detox and then wrung his hands regretting and doubtful while dean held steadfast, and then told dean to fucking fix it after that broke them, who said the line ‘family don’t end in blood’ to mean that he saw sam and dean as his sons, who was possessed when a demon told sam all sorts of hurtful things about starting the apocalypse and then even after being released from possession and stabbed and dealing with his own pain and issues still took the time to tell sam that the demon was lying and essentially to affirm that he still loves sam, who was an angry old man with a disability who sold his own soul to reclaim the use of his body and to get a location on death and despite all that messy anger and grief still carried on and saw the larger picture and tried his damn best to be good to people -

that bobby? didn’t tell dean that sam was alive? despite knowing like the entire time?

that bobby????

like yes okay bobby has referred to sam as being full of character defects, and people like to focus on that but they ignore the rest of what he’s saying and why he’s saying it!! he literally follows it up with explaining how sam is a hero and how they’re too hard on him and that if anyone can beat the devil, it’s sam. i’ve seen people say that no one believed in sam when it came to defeating lucifer and bobby literally says like two lines after the character defect one: “then you know Sam will beat the devil.” like sure ok, he follows that up with “...or die trying.” but then he immediately follows that up with “that's the best we could ask for.”

i get so annoyed seeing that defects line taken out of its original context and being used to say bobby didn’t love sam or treated him poorly. sam literally ditched bobby for months after dean’s death and bobby could not find or contact him, wouldn’t have known if he even died, and bobby didn’t even begrudge him for it. bobby loved sam and he believed in him. he loved dean and understood him. he asked dean, after that speech about how sam could beat the devil “so I got to ask, dean - what exactly are you afraid of? losing? or losing your brother?”

he! gets! dean! he watched dean sell his soul for sam and he watched sam turn monstrous and he helped pull them back together when their jagged edges were cutting each other raw and he wasn’t always nice and he wasn’t always right or righteous but he understood dean enough that he was able to talk dean around to giving sam his blessing with the whole lucifer plan because he understands that dean fears losing his brother more than he fears the literal apocalypse.

and then season 6 came along and bobby suddenly has let dean believe sam is dead for an entire year.

i just - i could scream that in all caps with a million emojis because it makes me so incredibly angry but instead i’ll just. i’ll just leave it. at that.

so anyway gamble era destroys bobby’s character through and through. as showrunner she’s willing to see him used for convenience and man-pain (killing him off to motivate dean in s7) rather than treat him like a 3-dimensional character whose thoughts and motivations she (the narrative) has to consider. there is a lazy line in there about how bobby was happy dean got out and had a family and was safe and it’s such utter goddamn bullshit because, as established in my rant up there, bobby knows dean better than that, and he’d never in a million years do that to dean, and he’d never in a million years believe sam would do that to dean either, nor would he trust a sam who told him to lie to dean about him being alive. that would raise his hunter alarm bells so fast and loud and he’d be on the phone with dean before sam would be three steps off his lot.

for the record him being a ghost is also the dumbest plot i’ve ever seen. the man is a fucking hunter whose wife was possessed by a demon and then came back as a zombie; he’s seen all manner of things including more than enough ghosts. i don’t believe for a second that the bobby we knew in s1-5 would stick around. i mean unless quite specifically it was a “i’m pretty sure i’m going to hell and i know that’s a real thing and also how shitty it is so maybe i’ll become a vengeful spirit and slowly wither into nothing that sounds nicer” but that’s not at all how it’s presented, it’s not some rational choice it’s just that he can’t let go because he’s attached to sam and dean and too pissed off about dying, and it just... fails to ring true to the character.

(don’t get me started on how he reacts to re-souled sam; gamble drop your location i just wanna talk)

anyway - i know a lot of folks praise the gamble era for the motw stuff but i mostly found them unremarkable. and yes gamble clearly understands how sexy jared padalecki is and like hallelujah ma’am, but i’d give up every single canon shirtless scene in all 15 years in a heartbeat, wave them happily goodbye, if it meant having s6-7 with more depth of characterization. 

and like - there are some really funny episodes! soulless sam, once we know he’s soulless, is kinda fun! i like the alien/fairy episode a lot! and the french mistake is one of my all-time favorites. season 7 time for a wedding is fucked up but fun to watch! balthazar is interesting! castiel has a great and interesting storyline! and we got soul-fisting!

there’s also some good emotional moments like the lisa and ben fallout! and weekend at bobby’s had some interesting character insights, and frontierland is great in so many ways! and this era introduces both garth and kevin and i love them both so damn much! and the scene in mommy dearest with eve looking like mary and biting dean is deliciously fucked up! weird oedipal bullshit is where spn is at, ba-bey! 

and appointment in samarra is a really good episode! (even if everyone is acting dense saying that putting sam’s soul back in him could kill him when like - if sam’s soul is in the cage he’s dead, like that soul is not alive on earth, and the soulless version of him that you’re ‘killing’ will still be part of him but no you’re not killing sam even if putting his soul back in him kills his earthly body, because even then his soul would go to heaven like? why was this a debate between these smart and interesting characters except that the writers needed to artificially raise the stakes of this course of action?)

anyway. it was a really good episode for the dean and death side of it. 

so there’s lots i liked about the gamble era too, but the problem is they’re mostly one-off things written into single episodes by people other than gamble, rather than (other than the cas storyline) actually part of the fabric of the seasons or direction or characterization that a showrunner should be in charge of keeping on track.

because like -- the mains plots? i hated the hallucifer plot and the way sam’s trauma was handled, with only a few good moments and most of them in the first two eps of s7. the alphas failed to inspire even though the alpha vamp was just a fun character. the leviathan look dumb as hell, even if there’s something interesting going on there with their ultimate goal and how they aim to achieve it. sam campbell felt goddamn pointless and again like he was added to fill a desired plot rather than really thinking character dynamics through -- like literally there was no purpose for that character to be their resurrected grandfather, any hunter would do, the family bond was deeply under-explored and included for what??? for me to be disappointed? 

so anyway this is the most negative post on this blog by a massive margin but i just needed to rant and get it out of my system. 

i see a lot of sam fans praise gamble’s era and i love that sam receives so much focus in her era, but i honestly think gamble’s writing strength comes in the most with dean and how she intuits his character. 

long as tangent here, but look at the actual episodes gamble writes (not counting any she co-wrote in s1 with Raelle Tucker who imo elevated gamble’s writing) -- like yes you’ve got Houses of the Holy and Heart and AHBL but you’ve also got Bloodlust (introduces gordon and that turning point for dean), Crossroad Blues (dean-centric), and the Kids are Alright (introduces lisa). even in Houses of the Holy, the central arc is dean having his lack-of-faith shaken. gamble wrote ‘Dream a Little Dream of Me’ and that episode is !!!! for dean’s psyche. Jus In Bello is bibro but what’s central is dean and his tension with henricksen and his refusal to play ruby’s games, where sam’s little tiptoe into ‘maybe we kill the virgin?’ is important but not the focus. 

like “are you there god it’s me dean winchester” and “the curious case of dean winchester” ??!!!!!!  “it’s a terrible life” is about the angel’s manipulations on dean. it’s all dean!

gamble writes dean exceptionally well and her episodes almost all do something really fascinating with him. why don’t we talk about that more?

but of course i’ll grant you there’s some sam focus! Heart invokes sam’s fears of becoming a monster (even if sam acts shy for waaaay too long being flirted with, it’s hard to suspend disbelief); AHBL1 is an amazing episode focused on sam; Fresh Blood has the holy fuck razor-wire scene; Time is On My Side has unhinged bros; When The Levee Breaks is a fucking masterpiece. 

and in fairness, both Bloodlust and “the curious case of dean winchester” have sam gaining an upper hand by being more level-headed than those around him, and both eps have men flirt with sam, which i love. “the song remains the same” is beautifully bibro in its little moments even though i find it more dean-centric. “two minutes to midnight” is an incredible episode with Death, even if that most memorable moment is the conversation between Dean and Death it still has a lot of implicit focus on sam and who he is, with the final conversation between dean and bobby (the one about sam being able to beat the devil) as essentially sam-centric.

(literally how did gamble write that episode and “death’s door” with such insight into bobby but still have him not tell dean sam is alive for a year???)

this incredible writing for dean carries through to her own era. i just complained a bunch about the start of season 6 and soulless and bobby, but dean is perfect in 6x01 and entirely believable. appointment in samarra, which i praised above? dean is 100 in that. “let it bleed” where dean leaves lisa and ben behind and has cas take their memories? the dean-centric plot there is devastating. and imo only one of gamble’s eps in s7 is genuinely sam-centric and it’s “the born again identity” where he ends up in a mental health institute because of hallucifer, and even there she has dean being focal, sorting through his inability to forgive cas, and she shoe-horns cas in with memories loss as “emmanuel” as this truly bizarre deus ex machina cure for sam’s hell-trauma that comes totally out of left field and feels intensely un-earned. it’s another thing that is just there to push the plot to where it ‘needs’ to be rather than taking time to figure it out in more depth.

(this is the same shit we criticize bucklemming for - and yes they’re way way worse for it and just worse writers like whoa, but why are we giving gamble a pass! look i actually think gamble is an incredible writer, i think her episodes are always interesting and they explore the characters and i’ve never hated a gamble ep and in fact love quite a few of them, lots of my faves. but i don’t enjoy her as a showrunner and i’ve tried really hard to get into her other properties and i can’t.)

anyway this is just my own biased reading so take it with a grain of salt, but i feel like gamble adores sam to the point where she prioritizes what she wants for him rather than what suits the character or story. she writes dean better because dean aligns well with her own adoration of sam and gives her a vehicle for it. we get bamf!sam moments and smart!sam moments from her on an episodic basis because of that love, so yay! but she writes dean with more genuine depth and a lot of her best scenes are of him, a lot of the best emotional arcs she writes are his.

final point - putting my wincestie goggles on here - i don’t feel like she invests in the codependency. and if i’m fully honest that’s why i don’t enjoy her seasons. (i can forgive bad writing but i can’t forgive ignoring the erotic codependency). imo if any showrunner came close to breaking the dependency, it was gamble. while her dean is obsessed with sam, her sam does not read (to me) as mutually obsessed. he is at times reliant and desperate, but not devoted. some of this is soullessness but after that it’s all ??? to me. 

where it crops up in the gamble era, it’s typically in an ep written by either dabb (the og domestic brothers stan) or edlund (thank you for the french mistake with the complaint that they aren’t even brothers in that world, mr. edlund, and also for the insane 7x02 cut-sam’s-hand-to-kill-hallucifer scene. godspeed.), or else kripke’s final episode (aka “the man who knew too much” -- what a work of art -- with that fundamental understanding of sam who overcomes his own internal fracturing and wakes up because he knows he needs to get back to dean).

anyway that’s all probably unfair but 🤷‍♂️  i’m a kripke-era stan and a carver-era truther so i’m just gonna own that.