#church meta

[artbyblastweave]

Elder Scrolls is fascinating to me because the vast majority of the background information of the setting is very obviously written by people with an admirably clear-eyed understanding of how history is mainly just groups genociding the shit out of each other before constructing post-hoc rationalizations of why that was a cool and good thing to do, if they bother justifying anything beyond the level of Might Makes Right. And then the actual main quest plots are often operating at Sword Hero Cleanses The Undesirables levels of These Are The Bad Guys, Kill Them Because We Said So

[dandelionjack]

> new series release (space babies) coincided with the uk seeing the northern lights for the first time in years

> the devil’s chord coincided with paul mccartney’s long-missing hofner bass guitar being found, by a doctor who fan no less

> boom coincided with an actual meteor crash

> 73 yards is coinciding with a rise in bizarre supposedly-occult animal sacrifice rituals in britain (the folk horror part) and rishi sunak finally calling a general election (the political drama part)

> hypothesis: russell t davies has somehow managed to tune in to the universe’s divine frequency ??

> conclusion: messing with the forces of fate, cause&effect and coincidence, even if it’s for the pop culture franchise you’re showrunning, actually turns it into an egregore, but only if it’s been going for long enough (sixty fucking years to the dot) and watched by enough people (tens of millions). which it has

> ergo, postscriptum: television magick is real and is being unintentionally performed by the creators + audience of the world’s silliest science fiction show

> /jk. unless?

[calwasntfound]

my friend has been trying to get me to watch rvb for almost ten years. you'll never guess who finally caved

[saucerfulofsins]

I love the juice bar scene as much as the next person. I especially love the juice bar scene in conjunction with the confession.

And yeah, the "I'm straight" is chekov's gun, and the chemistry between Eddie and father Brian too. I love the meta/spec/headcanons!

That's not what I want to talk about. Instead, I want to talk about how sensitive Father Brian has been to Eddie's needs. He offered Bobby help in the church, face to face, and that worked for Bobby because he's a religious man. Eddie went to confession, and got his grievances aired, but -

we know Eddie's relationship with the church and religion is more complex than Bobby's. It doesn't work.

And then Father Brian runs into Eddie, recognizes him although he probably only saw Eddie through the confessional's grate. He remembers Eddie's name, too. He cares! And I don't think that's a sexual/romantic thing at all - and I don't think it is religious either. Yes, religion is the context within which he works, but it's not the only context.

He's not technically on the job when he sits down at that table; he's away from the protection by the grandiose rituals embedded in going to church, confession, wearing robes. He does it out of personal care, affection for humanity; he fills the role of a social worker, a guidance counselor - and religion is one of his tools but it's clearly not his only tool. It's also his ability to observe, and to listen, and to reflect on things - putting his finger on the sore spot in ways no one else in Eddie's life has done. That takes guts, especially because he knows Eddie's in a vulnerable place.

And he does it not because he's interested in Eddie romantically/sexually - that is not the reciprocity he seeks, nor the reciprocity that fulfills him. He does it because he cares.

The setting certainly helps too. Eddie doesn't feel as intimidated, not like a fish out of water. Only his title marks Father Brian as a religious figure; he uses it to break the ice and mark himself as safe ("I am celibate"), and then finally invokes his position to speak to Eddie's Catholic guilt and get him to do something for himself.

I don't know. It just felt deeply human and caring and I enjoy that a lot, and I love how it all connects back to Eddie first realizing his Catholic guilt in 7x05.

[cornchrunchie]

I'm sure someone already pointed it out, but– I just can't get over the symbolism of the church scene in 1941. How the bomb shatters the church and kills the nazis and leaves Aziraphale and Crowley behind.

The bomb literally destroys the Good™ (the church obviously represents Heaven) and the Bad™ (we know that the nazis represent Hell because that's where we meet them again. Also, they're nazis) but it doesn't do any harm to Aziraphale and Crowley, therefore placing them with neither Good nor Bad but rather something in between.

Look at them. The sacred ground is scattered around them, not even sacred anymore, since Crowley no longer is bothered by it. What once was to resemble the Evil is now buried beneath.

But there is Aziraphale, who used a miracle to save not only himself but also Crowley. And there is Crowley, who used a miracle to save Aziraphale's books. Because they care for each other. Because they look out for each other. Because neither of them is solely good or bad, they are shades of grey.

We even see Crowley pulling the bag out of the dead person's hand, which could be interpreted as an act of ultimate liberation from the past. After thousands of years of choosing between Heaven and Hell, Crowley chooses to save the books for Aziraphale.

Even though this scene takes place years before they get cut loose from Heaven and Hell respectively, it already depicts Aziraphale and Crowley as independent from both, as their own team. It's the visual proof that they already are an us.

In the end, it all comes down to them. When Heaven and Hell lose their power, when there's little more than broken pieces left –

Aziraphale and Crowley still survive. Together.

Anyways, I'm going mad over here

[s0fter-sin]

god the way ghost’s voice drops when he tells soap, “you’ll need to improvise to survive”

before that, everything he says is steady but when he acknowledges that soap’ll have to do something outside his skill set, something he intimately knows to be difficult, his voice wavers. he does the same when he says, “welcome to guerrilla warfare”; it’s sombre and serious in a way he doesn’t act for the rest of the mission. if you read into it enough, he almost sounds apologetic; like he knows exactly what soap’s about to go through and wishes he didn’t have to

he keeps soap going; poking at him and making jokes, giving him tips and asking about his progress. he never lets him stop and take a second to think bc he knows the moment he does is the moment it'll all hit him; the betrayal, the pain, the fear, the deaths, all of it will drown him and if that happens, soap won't make it

he needs him to be a soldier through and through and he knows this is one of the worst kinds of battlefields you could end up on

and the only times he slips is when he acknowledges that fact

it happens again when he says, "tryin' to get you here alive and in one piece". his jovial dark humour facade drops for just a moment when he has to face the potential reality of losing soap. then he tries to pick it back up again with, "one of us has to survive to tell the tale"; completely discounting himself as a survivor to try and rally soap and make him think it’s all down to him

and soap does the same thing

when he's calling out for ghost on the radio, he's tentative, testing the frequency, then when he doesn’t get a response, he grows desperate; "ghost, this is 7-1, do you copy?"

then when ghost answers, he smooths out his voice; he hides the pain, the fear, and no matter what response you give to ghost asking if he’s injured, soap brushes it off (“i’m good”, “what’s the difference?”, “i’m not a medic”). soap decides it’s in ghost’s best interest to hide the extent of his injuries

he doesn’t know where ghost is, if he’s secure, if he has any weapons; he doesn’t even know if he’s in las almas until he says, “there’s a church, i’m headed to it”. for all he knows, he could’ve run in the complete opposite direction. if ghost knows he’s hurt, then his attention would be split between his own survival and soap’s

and soap, who lets himself be poked and prodded towards the church, needs to hide his own doubts. maybe he needs ghost to believe he'll make it so he himself can believe it ("what are my odds?" "don't make me bet against you", "think i'll live that long?" "probably not")

he all but begs ghost to tell him he'll get through it and if he knows just how bad off he is, maybe he'll change his mind. maybe he'll think he won't make it to the church

maybe he'll leave him alone for good

"you injured?"

"i’m good"

"let's find out how good you are"

[cedarxwing]

We all know that Matthew set up the pool scene as a reference to the hanging of Judas (Matthew 27:3-10), inspired by Hannibal's own lecture from the novel and Antipasto.

Then Matthew complicates things by duct taping Hannibal's arms to a broken broom pole, making him look like Jesus. Judas is never depicted in the crucifixion pose (he's normally hanging from a tree branch), so the show is obviously implying that Hannibal is playing a sacrificial/savior role in this episode (at least in the eyes of Jack and Alana).

But then Matthew keeps spreading his arms out in mockery. I don't know why I never put this together before, but he's totally supposed to be the impenitent thief!

Jesus was crucified along with two bandits. The one on his right was penitent and asked for Jesus to remember him in heaven. The one on his left mocked Jesus with the rest of the crowd, saying that if he was really the son of God, he should be able to save himself. Matthew is standing on Hannibal's left in both of those shots, and there's an empty spot to Hannibal's right where the penitent thief would stand if he was present. How fun!

[itsyouch]

I hate this mfr.

[cosmicjoke]

People are always trying to give the credit for Levi’s heroism and goodness to someone other than Levi him self and it’s so freakin’ annoying.

“Oh, Levi’s mom is the only reason he turned out good, because she loved him.”

As if the handful of years they had together and the single clear, positive memory he had of her would alone be enough to overcome the two plus decades of absolute horror that followed, or even the horror of their lives together, living in absolute, desolate impoverishment, squalor and ruinous desperation.

“Oh, Kenny taught Levi to value life by showing him his life mattered.”

Is this a joke? Kenny was a serial killer and the only thing he ever taught Levi was how to use his strength for selfish gain.

“Oh, Furlan and Isabel taught Levi to care about other people.”

Levi saved Furlan’s and Isabels’s lives before he even knew either of them. Nobody showed him or taught him to do that. He did that on his own.

“Oh, Erwin instilled Levi’s desire to help people into him and taught him morals.”

See my previous point. Levi had a desire to help people long before he ever met Erwin, as exemplified by his rescue of Furlan and Isabel, as well as the other characters he attempts to rescue and safeguard the lives of throughout "No Regrets", like that soldier who nearly killed himself on the titan obstacle course, or Flagon and Sairam out in the field. Even in the OVA, we see Levi protect Isabel from those thugs chasing after her, despite knowing nothing about her. We see him agree to Lovof's proposal only because he wants to protect the life of that disabled member of his and Furlan's crew, after he's taken by Lovof's men to the surface, the obvious implication being, if Levi doesn't cooperate, then they're going to kill the kid. Or later on, when he tries desperately to get both Furlan and Isabel to stay behind on their first scouting expedition, to take all the danger onto himself, only agreeing to let them come when Furlan asks him to trust them. We see that instinct and desire to help and protect people long before Levi ever knew Erwin, or felt any sort of loyalty or admiration for him, he just didn't have the means or the know-how, given what a struggle it was just to survive in the Underground, and given nobody ever taught Levi the ways in which his strength could actually make a significant difference to people. Levi only had a limited idea of how it could, from having taken Furlan and Isabel under his wing and providing them protection.

What Erwin did was focus that already existent desire and instinct onto a broader goal, by convincing Levi it was possible for him to really make a difference to all people by lending his strength to the Survey Corps. Erwin showed Levi how it was possible for him to do what he'd already had a desire to do, if not a belief in his ability to do it, something we see Levi struggle with throughout "No Regrets", not fully believing in his ability to actually help anyone until the end, when Erwin gives him his big speech. And again, it makes sense that Levi would struggle to believe he could actually help anyone or make a difference, given how he grew up and how nobody ever taught him how to use his strength to help. You can have all the desire in the world to do something, but if nobody ever taught you how, then it's going to be a lot more difficult to believe in your ability to do it, or to do it at all. Still, Levi did his best, and did help people as much as he could and knew how. Erwin isn't responsible for Levi having that as his motivation. Erwin only gave Levi the direction needed to believe he could utilize his strength to the benefit of many people, rather than just a few. Basically, Erwin broadened Levi's horizons about what might be possible, and of course, that's why Erwin's influence and impact on Levi is so great. It's fine to acknowledge that, it's fine to acknowledge how important Erwin was to Levi. But to actually try to give Erwin the credit for Levi's compassion and kindness, or his moral values, is absurd and wickedly unfair to Levi himself. Levi already had those qualities in him. Nobody instilled it in him.

I don’t know what this obsession is within a certain segment of this fandom with wanting to rob Levi of the credit he deserves for being the man he is. It's why I always say Levi is a perfect example of nature over nurture, because he literally had no good role models growing up. He had his mom, but again, he barely knew her and barely remembers her. He had literally the opposite of a good role model in Kenny. And yet look how he turned out. It's why I get so pissed when people try to give the credit for that to someone else. Levi deserves the credit for how he turned out. He beat such hard odds, and it's unfair to him to deny him that recognition. It's unfair to deny him recognition for the strength of character it took to overcome the hellish cruelty he was raised in by retaining his great humanity, empathy, compassion and kindness. Very few people could have done the same. Further, I think there's something insidious in it, when people do that, when they try to give the credit for Levi's goodness to someone else. It's basically tantamount to claiming Levi's pain and trauma growing up isn't worth acknowledging. It's like telling an abused kid that they were made better by their abuse, and they should be grateful for it as a result, instead of complaining about it or feeling hurt over it. It’s so lame and unfair, because not only does it perpetuate this harmful idea that none of us are responsible for ourselves, but it also undermines and dismisses the trauma and tragedy of Levi’s childhood by pretending it wasn’t really all that bad or there can be found something positive from the abuse he was subjected to under Kenny's care. It's horribly close to victim blaming, and smacks of abuse apologism

It’s a miracle that Levi turned out the way he did, and the miracle comes from Levi himself, not any of the people listed above.

[blackjackkent]

This is so fucking funny to me. I don't think this is what Khalid had in mind at all.

[roxannepolice]

Something about 15 having more elements of Gallifreyan culture (the writing on the sonic and on the freaking nails) in his image than any Doctor before.

Something about him flippantly stating he was abandoned instead of TOTALLY KIDNAPPED MY PARENTS WERE TOTALLY SOMEWHERE THERE IN THAT COMPLETELY EMPTY SPOT.

Something about knowing it's more important to save Ruby now than to learn of her past.

Something about parent with their own issues frame rather than an eternal child.

Something about Carla using the same words as the Doctor to reflect on how we are defined by our memories and people we know rather than by vague essence of might have beens.

Something about identifying with the past you had with its good and bad sides rather than the very bad sides you can't even remember.

And yes, something about Gatwa being the first first generation immigrant to play the Doctor.

[dandelionjack]

hey insane doctor who people. remember the snowman scene in the church on ruby road? there was no baby in the pram 👀 instead of a baby it was “shopping” . tags i left on a gifset then realised fuck it, it deserves its own post

gift-wrapped baby that’s not a baby. saved by the doctor from imminent mortal danger but the snowman was hollow on the inside too…

[wbne]

despite opinions on Restoration, I think that the fanfictions that are gonna come out of s19 are going to be insanely good

[time-is-restored]

What Happened At The Church On Ruby Road?

AKA: Why does RTD want us to watch Ruby's first episode with a ruler and protractor?

Alright, so since I read this article excerpt yesterday night I haven't been able to stop thinking about what trick could be hidden in the sequence between the cloaked woman, the doctor, and baby ruby. While I'm not at all claiming to know the answer, I have a few details to point out that might help with further analysis.

First of all: A Continuity Error (On Purpose?)

At the very beginning of TCORR, when the doctor's giving his 'once upon a time,' speech, we see the TARDIS materialise + the doctor appear, looking in the direction of the cloaked woman, looking distraught. Disney+ is evil so I can't get an accurate screenshot, so take this scuffed photo instead, taken from 1:03. You can see a tear rolling down his cheek (little white dot on the left of his face, in line w this nose).

Later in the episode, when the doctor materialises in the scene for the first time, there is no tear. It's a marginally different shot in several ways, but that's the most noticable to me - screenshot taken from 42:59.

By itself, this is totally negligible. But I think when taken with the opening monologue (which heavily implies that the doctor finds out the cloaked woman's identity - "As for the mother, she was never seen again. No one ever knew her name, until that night a time traveller came to call. A traveller known as the Doctor."), there is possible evidence here that the doctor came to this moment twice. Once in the sequence of events as we see them, rescuing Ruby from the goblins, and once where... something else happened.

Second: The Layout of The Church

We get a few aerial shots of the church when the camera is showing the ascent of the ship, and a lovely wide shot as the doctor decides to not follow the cloaked woman (taken from 46:28 and 44:07).

The most important thing I want to point out is the way the hedge path curves to the right in the direction the doctor and the cloaked lady are facing. You can only really see it in that one shot (so I hope it's not a lens effect!). The aerial shot helps clarify that nothing is obstructing either of the character's view of the church.

We can also see that in this iteration of their encounter, the cloaked woman is standing a little bit to the right of the doctor (thanks to the curved path).

Third: The Timing

The only real indication of how much real time is passing in each scene is the clock striking midnight. So, when does that happen?

In the opening sequence, the clock strikes midnight after the man from the church has found Ruby and picked her up. We then see the woman relatively far down the road that we can see in that above screenshot, and THEN we see the TARDIS apparate and the Doctor appear.

In the goblin sequence, the woman is already far down the road well before it hits midnight, as the doctor sees her walking away before he runs to save baby ruby. Obviously time moves slower than usual in TV actions scenes, but that's not all - we see the clock strike midnight before the man from the church picks Ruby up.

Furthermore, the woman has... barely moved at all in those few minutes. Screenshots from 43:00 and then 46:45.

Okay, that should be all the relevant information from TCORR. Now to get to that point!

Fourth: The Point

This is where things go off the fucking rails. Here's our orienting shots for the Point.

Just to compare the positions of the doctor's shot here, here's the last shot we have of him looking at the lady in TCORR:

While this could just be a fancy camera angle, I think the Doctor is standing more to (his) left of the TARDIS than in this above shot. AKA: he's standing more to the left than she is. That emphasises that, if the woman was to be pointing at him when she turns around, she should be pointing to her right.

But I don't think she is -- especially in that wide shot, her arm looks like it's going wide. It's going more to the left than it should be. If RTD hadn't explicitly said the 'who's pointing at who' was significant, I would be fine with accepting that she's pointing at the doctor -- especially since that's how the doctor reads it.

And if we go back to the layout of the church, the things she could be pointing at are, in order of exactly how far to the left she'd have to point:

something just behind the doctor (would explain how close the point is to him)

the path up to the church

the clock tower

ruby/the baby

Regardless of where she's pointing, I think the implication is that there's someone else at the scene, doing something that the doctor didn't notice (perhaps due to his own bias with mother figures).

Wild Speculation:

Now, what do I think this means? Honestly, no idea LOL. It's still all just vague enough it could go in fifty different directions. But we know for sure that the moment where Ruby Sunday was left at the church is a moment in flux, thanks to the the Doctor's memory changing + the song in the background being different in Devil's Chord.

Part of me wonders if there's something (someone?) hiding inside that memory/moment in time? Like how Thirteen hid her companions inside their own time stream to try and buy time away from the swarm guys? It would explain the Maestro's reaction -- 'he couldn't have been there[...] on the night of her birth' -- in the devil's chord, the young boy is a harbinger. Maybe ruby is the harbinger of something too? That could also explain why it started snowing in the TARDIS after 15 scanned her -- the same thing happened when Maestro started trying to pull out her song.

Then if you go with the changeling angle, it's entirely possible we're about to get a shell game with babies 2: electric boogaloo (thanks russel for saying we should rewatch a good man goes to war, i'll never sleep again 👍). Maybe while the doctor's too busy watching the cloaked woman, someone else is intervening, switching her baby for ruby? Or doing something To her baby that explains why ruby is so... wrong, for lack of a better word?

Also, looking between the opening sequence vs the goblin sequence timing, we have several minutes where the cloaked woman is totally unaccounted for in the latter, as well as an entire interaction between her and the doctor that... didn't happen? Or did happen, but was forgotten? Unwritten? Rewritten? Etc.?

If I had to make a bet (and let's be honest, what else are we doing while theorising LOL), I'd say that something about that night has been memory-holed out of existence. Possibly a doomed timeline that righted itself, ala 73 yards, but left just enough trace that the people involved know something happened (ruby knows she's been to wales three times before, the doctor knows he was pointed at).

I think it was triggered when the lady and the doctor got too close to each other (did she hear that the goblin ship was taking her baby? did she turn around and see something she otherwise would have missed?), and realised something about each other (or ruby?) that needed to stay dormant. the cold opening implies the doctor learns her name, and since there don't appear to be any time of the angels sneaky outfit change moments, i can only assume it happened here, somewhere in this memory.

And hell, in for a penny in for a pound, maybe it all got undone (retconned, in universe, in real time), because the Doctor shouldn't learn about the cloaked woman until the finale? Spoilers? In TV meta, did the director tell all the other actors (the church man + the cloaked lady) to hold in place until the doctor was back in position?

[Final note, regarding the continuity error I noted first up, in TV shows with ad breaks factored in -- brief fades to black at dramatic moments, then the last ten seconds play again to remind the audience what's happening -- sometimes directors would use different takes for before and after the ad break. Maybe that's the explanation for the tear -- in universe, that cold open stopped in its tracks the moment the opening was cued to play. It then started again with a doctor who had last cried several minutes ago, and the scene played out as intended.]

Anyway fellow 'the mistakes are in there on purpose' believers how are we FEELING!!!!!

[fischiee]

rvb ft. goofs and gags pt. 3

[slotumn]

The question of whether the Church has too much authority/influence in Fódlan at time of canon is actually kind of impossible to satisfactorily answer, and I am not talking about "oh every faction is morally grey/it depends on which faction you picked" or something like that.

I mean that real life historical examples (of religions) we might be tempted to compare them to and judge them by just don't work well, because if they are institutionally similar then they don't match theologically/doctrinally, and if they're doctrinally similar then they don't match institutionally.

Central Church is like if Buddhism + Confucianism + Taoism cosplayed as Catholics with pope and Vatican feat. dragons, and if you feel like this combination makes no goddamn sense by real world standards/historical development then that's because it doesn't.

Combine that with the fact the Church is weirdly avoidant and passive and the fact Fódlanis have not killed each other over religion enough and I think it's entirely possible the Church itself at the time of canon doesn't know exactly how much authority it holds.