#but heteronormativity is something i feel so deeply

[stranger-feathers]

The whole "what if Will was a girl" is a good way to reduce bias in the audience. But you're definitely right that it really doesn't make sense in narrative analysis because their arc in S3 and S4 is deeply tied to the fact that Will is a boy, most notably with the rain fight. A straight version of the rain fight (it's not my fault you don't have a boyfriend/you're jealous of El) would not have led to the nuclear reaction Will has in canon, and probably wouldn't have even happened since it's prompted by Mike feeling uncomfortable with queerness in canon. It can't be fully dissociated from the fact that those are two boys, just like Mileven can't be dissociated from the fact that it is a straight couple (by virtue of the social pressure and acceptance involved in how other characters view it).

Will's arc is deeply tied to being queer : if you get rid of that fact, you get rid of most of the arc. Will is pulling away from Mike, being self conscious and second guessing everything, pre-emptively sacrificing his feelings etc. because he's queer, and doesn't believe there's a happy ending for someone like him. He would not be going this far if it was simply about loving his best friend who already has a girlfriend: the stakes of Byler would be much, much lower for a girl Will, and his actions would change accordingly.

Will in canon isn't only scared of Mike being uncomfortable with Will loving him specifically the way a straight girl might. He's scared of Mike rejecting him entirely, even as a friend, simply for being gay.

Mike would also change a lot in how he acts. He wouldn't feel the need to hide his affection, and would be much more open in public if Will was a girl : no more closing doors before you talk or jumping when they get interrupted because there would be no reason for him to be scared of being found out. Mike acting visibly different and softer when they're alone is due to their queerness and the social climate around it: it would not happen if Will was a girl.

And those are just a few examples of what would have to change in a straight version of Byler ! The truth is that the whole "what if Will was a girl ?/what if Mileven was gay ?" would change just about everything in both relationships. It has some value in adressing biases : more people would see Byler coming if it was straight (heteronormativity), and some would like Mileven more (those who dislike straight ship on principle or ship just about anything if it's gay - they do exist, especially on tumblr) or less (homophobes) if it wasn't. But the characters' stories would also change so drastically that you end up in complete speculation as to what that version of the show would even look like, so does it really matter at this point ?

I personally have similar thoughts about Lesbyler as a concept because Will's backstory would change a lot in a version where he wasn't immediately clocked as a gay boy by the town (and his dad most notably). Even if you assume that people would think that girl Will was a lesbian instead (I'm not even sure it would be the case since that version of Will would be much closer to the gender norm), lesbian and gay kids have different experiences and expectations pushed on them, which would lead to different attitudes in my opinion. I would argue that their respective familial situations could also have evolved and influenced them very differently (most notably in Lonnie and Will's relationship, but there is also something to be said about the difference in treatment between Mike and Nancy by their parents), but I'm gonna stop my tangent here because this was not the main topic at all. Lesbyler can be fun but it would probably be very different from canon Byler if we're being honest (just like most genderbend/sexbend stories to be honest : changing assigned gender at birth will lead to wildly different socialisation, and wildly different characters in most cases, just like making a ship queer or straight would).

If Will were a girl, how do you think the average audience would react? Would they say she's also a homewrecker or a slut? Or that her and Mike make much more sense and chemistry?

I think there would still be a shipping war, like there is with Jancy and Stancy. Therefore, toxic people on the Mileven side of things would likely call her that yes -- but I think that's not the issue brought up by people who are asking the question of : What if Will were a girl?

If Will was a girl, people probably would see Byler as having more of a chance, people would be more receptive of the idea of it happening because it's straight. People would be much much more likely to see their romantic scenes as romantic and the showrunners and interviewers would definitely be asking the actors more about this love triangle.

But a lot of the reason why so many people , including queer people, think that Byler won't happen is because it's a queer ship. These are the common doubts:

Will's unrequited love is realistic. Many gay boys have crushes on their straight best friend.

Will's sadness is realistic because he is a gay person in the 80s.

Mike loves El meaning he is straight and can't love Will who is a guy.

The showrunners can't make a gay love story the main focus of a huge show like Stranger Things.

The showrunners might be queerbaiting like a lot of other shows.

Doubt number 1 is eliminated if Will was a girl because straight unrequited love is not seen as realistic.

Doubt number 2 is eliminated if Will was a girl because she would be straight and not discriminated against for being gay in the 80s.

Doubt number 3 is eliminated because both El and Will would be girls, meaning Mike can equally have a chance of being with either of them.

Doubt number 4 is eliminated if Will was a girl because the writers would not need to make as big of a social leap to make Mike and Will in love.

Doubt number 5 is eliminated if Will was a girl because.... well it's obvious.

I kind of don't like this argument. Yes, if Will was a girl, people would probably be more receptive to the idea of Byler happening. A lot of the reason people don't see it is because of heteronormativity. BUT a lot of the reason why I think Byler is happening is because MIKE IS QUEERCODED not just because Byler have romantic chemistry. Part of Mike's arc isn't just realising that he's in love with Will, it's realising that he's queer.

This is a gay love story, don't try to water it down by simply asking questions like:

"What if Will was a girl?"

"If Mileven were gay would you like them?"

Ignores the queer building blocks of the story. Byler is the dynamic that it is because they are queer in the 80s. Mileven is the way it is because they are a straight couple pushed together by trauma and guilt.

[oaxleaf]

i do feel like pulley makes a conscious choice, whilst she typically acknowledges the homophobia that would be present in a period setting, to not make it a significant plot point or to have too much angst surrounding it, which i very much appreciate. sometimes you can put queer people in fun historical settings and let them be miserable for reasons other than being queer. simultaneously, i’ve been thinking a lot lately about the themes of heteronormativity in thlovk. because those are not necessarily the same thing? i’m lucky enough to not have experienced much in-person homophobia, but by god does hetero- and cisnormativity prevail no matter how progressive of a place you live in.

so yeah, the way valery talks about things like marriage and family really resonates. the pretty much presumed loneliness, the notion that if you don’t settle down with your opposite-sex partner and have a bunch of kids then you’ll end up sad and uncared for. and whilst homophobia is mentioned and relevant (though more so when it comes to shenkov), heteronormativity is the real insidious attitude in the novel. how valery himself, throughout the entierty of the novel, keeps presuming that he’ll always lie farthest down on the list of people shenkov cares about, because the straight nuclear family promotes the idea that love and caring is a limited resource in a person when it really isn’t, and that a romantic, heterosexually married spouse will always take the automatic highest priority, followed by ones biological children, and that there even needs to be a hierarchy. valery’s insecurities are not about being queer, but it’s about the things everybody assumes you’ll never have just because of your queerness. and i appreciate an exploration of the struggles of queer identity that go deeper than the risk of hatred and homophobia

[xylophone888]

(this is a repost because i think i accidentally deleted the original post :/)

fun (actually quite sad and not fun whatsoever) fact: when rincewind described what he thought was a crush on conina to himself he only listed physical "symptoms" such as fast heartbeat, feeling too hot to a "molten iron" extent and sweaty palms; he never brought up or even tried to bring up psychological stuff like being drawn to the person you have a crush on or finding some of their features or interests attractive or even something like wanting to get to know them better

he only found physical symptoms that could correspond to many different things other than infatuation and i personally think he just said to himself "well she's a woman and im a man and men are attracted to women right? therefore all this i feel must mean that im attracted to her, can't imagine anything else" but actually if you look at the aforementioned symptoms a little closer....i honestly am of the opinion he was just constantly stressed and anxious and scared on such a deep level already that he couldn't understand why was he feeling all that so he went for the only explanation available; he got so used to fear and anxiety he stopped noticing it and when it expectedly produced bad physical symptoms he already stopped even thinking about the fact that he's afraid and anxious because it became the default state of being to him; he forgot that feeling the way he feels all the time isn't normal

[walking-loather]

actively live laugh loving through a crisis of sexuality except its not in the fun way (the fun way is: oh my! am i gay? i should find a hot dyke to experiment with)

im twenty three years old i cannot seriously be wondering whether or not i like boys. i already did this shit in middle school like can we not

[nottobehornyonthemain]

The pool scene is awesome. But it’s also extremely painful.

Because on the one hand you have Gideon, who is very repressed, something we’re probably not expecting as an audience, because she is a brash, agressive, openly queer woman. There’s a weird expectation that girls are somehow more in touch with their feelings (this is dumb). But also we live in a heteronormative society, and it’s unusual for us to see out queer folks who haven’t had to actually think critically about their emotions and come to terms with with them. Which, Gideon has not done.

So she’s in this position where she does not think that Harrowhark is capable of feeling affection or love, and that the strongest emotion Harrow is capable of is hate. Gideon knows 100% for a fact that Harrow hates her, so that means she is important to Harrow.

Except that Harrow *is* apparently capable of love and affection. Which means that when she says that she doesn’t think about Gideon that often because there are things she cares about more, she’s not just saying it to get under Gideon’s skin. Which means that Gideon isn’t as important to Harrow as she thought she was. And this upsets her deeply for reasons she can’t fully explain or understand.

On the other hand you have Harrow, she just told her greatest secret, and received forgiveness, understanding, and genuine human comfort in return. So she looks at the world as though it is filled with egg-eating snakes and she is protecting an egg. So she makes Gideon promise to go home and do the thing her family has been tasked with for generations. We, as the audience, have only gotten like five scenes with Harrowhark fully aware of everything post pool-scene, and in two of them she is destroying herself so that Gideon can have even the smallest chance of life.

Because Gideon just had her heart broken into a thousand tiny shards and can’t even express why, meanwhile Harrow thinks they’re married now.

If they had just a few more hours to talk to each other afterwards I fully believe that they would have worked a lot of this shit out. I guess that’s the tragedy. Even in their moment of seeing each other clearly for the first time, they still don’t understand each other.

[huginsmemory]

Ford's Dreams; Attraction and Asexuality

In Bill's quips in TBOB on what the characters dream about, the quip he had on Ford caught my eye: "Sixer dreams about a pop quiz that asks him "what are you attracted to?" He usually writes "I'm attracted to logic and preparation." Not sure what to call that! Plansexual?". Immediately upon reading it, it made me question the implicit meanings of that small blurb, on Ford's sexuality (as someone whose aroace) and on the potential reason why such a dream was reoccurring, which I've explored below:

Extra addition added (Jan 6 2025)!

The first of two pages in TBOB on Bill's quips on characters dreams; this page includes Ford's, Dippers, Mabel's and Wendy's dream comments.

First of all, there are two types of quips Bill makes about the characters dreams. First, and the main type of comment, are negatively connotated, generally close to or even are nightmares. Dipper, about over hearing his parents fight about divorce, Mabel who has nightmares about waddles dying, Wendy who dreams about her Mom, who died, Stan's about Ford getting stuck in his science fair experiment, and Pacifica about the lumberjack ghost and blood that doesn't wash off her hands. Most of these are things that play off subconscious or conscious fears or grief (or memories in relation to fear or grief). The second type of quip, are goofs; such as Robbie's real hair colour, or Blubs and Durland only dreaming about each other (both on the other page, not depicted). So where does Ford's comment for in? At first glance, Ford's dream quip somewhat comes out as a goof (especially considering the horrible things he's gone through and seen). But for a central, serious character, and considering the context of the book, I really don't think this is a goof, but more of the first type of quip, on darker/nightmare sort of dreams.

But if it's is a nightmare, then why would a pop quiz about what he's attracted to be nightmare material?

First of all, regarding the set up of the dream, a quiz explicitly implies that you are being judged on your answer. There is a rubric for right or wrong answers, and someone, in a higher position of power, often in an academic institution, judges you by this. Ford is a character that's been clearly driven for the good first half of his life by excellency in academic achievement, and this implies that it's very important to him to get the quiz correct, to have the right answer, and that he fears being wrong.

Now on the subject matter of what the quiz entails; the subject of romance and attraction. Regarding canon, romance isn't one we get particularly clear images on with Ford, compared to Stan who flirts and literally goes out on a date during the series. We only really ever get two direct human interactions that could be implied to be considered romantic in nature (sorry fiddauthor's, there isn't anything from Ford's side of things that imply any extra feelings beyond cherished friend; Fiddleford in the other hand...). These are when he speaks to a girl at a dance and gets juice thrown on him, and in Journal 3 on the page that decodes on the page about himself to "LITTLE CATHY WHAT A DREAM HELD HER HAND AND MADE HER SCREAM". (There is also technically the one throw away line about Ford dating a siren in one of the Lost Legends comics, which would be the only time we know of Ford actually being in a romantic relationship; but that's something that never gets elaborated on, and when Dipper says that he's literally reading from the Bill page from Journal 3, so I'm unsure on the weight of such a statement). Compulsory heteronormativity aside as demanded by censors, both the implied attempts don't go well, and in the second one it directly implies Ford's six fingers are directly part of the reason why he's undesirable. Ford clearly deeply struggles with belonging around his 'weirdness'; case in point with the whole page about it in Journal 3. In this case, his bad luck in romance as a teen, possibly as a result of his 'wierdness', continues to alienate him from other people. As a result, a quiz focusing on romance may further remind Ford about his 'wrongness' as he doesn't have the socially expected romantic relationship.

Stanford's author pages in journal 3. The cipher on the right page decodes to what is described in the paragraph above. Note his emphasis on feeling alienated.

However, what's perhaps more telling about it is that the quiz asks what are you attracted too?, which is more sexual than really romantic in nature. And it's telling because what Ford puts down is logic and preparation. These aren't physical attributes as one may assume to answer these questions; neither is it gendered, or even really based on a person, but rather left open as the concepts (ie, he doesn't say someone who is logical and well-prepared). This Bill even jokes about, with 'plan-sexual'. And Ford's answer is not a typical 'male' answer (in the toxic sense, but also, just generally, since people experience sexual attraction) which Bill also notes with the joke. This 'incorrect' answer could be construed as another thing that's wrong with him, especially back in the day; emphasizing again Ford's wrong-ness and alienation.

Not to mention, beyond those two instances described above (interestingly, these occur previous to Ford's falling out with Stan, in which after he highly prioritizes academic achievement) Ford shows no interest in romantic relationships. This disinterest in pursuing romance is contrary to a lot of people who are still workaholics who have significant others/hook-up on the weekend in their meager time off. Ford's general disinterest in romance is also something that others him, with how our society puts so much emphasis on romantic and sexual relationships. And this is something that IMMEDIATELY caught my eye as someone whose within the general ballpark of aroace; there is a huge amount of alienation from society when you are disinterested in sexual/romantic relationships. Especially when toxic masculinity expects you to constantly be horny. So having someone ask you that question of what you are attracted too is awkward, and depending on the audience, socially difficult question to field. And often an answer to that comes out sounding exactly like Ford's, based on personality rather than physical attributes, if you don't decide to come out (not that Ford would know queer jargon anyways). So this question, posed in a quiz, with Ford being quite Ace-coded, would bring up these feelings of alienation, along with those about failure on not having the right 'answer' regarding attractiveness and the failure of not having a girlfriend.

The infamous Billford page in TBOB, of 'one thing led to another'. Also note Ford saying that Bill's "really got it all figured out".

Now, beyond that, we're also reading this in the context of TBOB. Even before the new info in TBOB, Ford openly worshipped Bill; and in TBOB it becomes clear that they certainly had something going on between them (cough, one thing lead to another, cough). This suggests that Ford found Bill attractive in some form of attraction, whether romantic, sexual or queer-platonic-ish. This especially so, considering the answer Ford puts down; logic and preparation. Bill, who corrected and furthered Ford's knowledge, who came to him as a being of pure knowledge (logic), and who helped him plan the portal, who ironically also had other plans of world domination beyond that (preparation). Bill fits the description, even if he's not human, but Ford's not bothered by that, Ford's a freak himself and it's clear in finding that acceptance he's ecstatic (freak4freak). And that attraction, that care Ford had/has for Bill? Now that's something that's horrifying, something that's filled with guilt, terror, and also embarrassment and fear of how others will react; case in point with Ford literally ripping those journal pages out so the others don't know about the extent of his and Bill's relationship, and in TBOB he acknowledges that. And that's not to mention the potential additives of negative emotions from failing to have attraction for the right person, from failing to meet toxic masculinity standards, and the emphasis of being a freak that made him fall for Bill. Now that's emotionally negatively charged for a fucking nightmare.

Like. Fuck. What are you attracted too? The being that I thought was a god of pure knowledge and thought that strung me along like a fish on line with bait of knowledge and companionship, and I ate that bait, hook, line, and sinker, so deep within my belly I fell in love with him; the being that betrayed me, that wants to destroy my world and used me to do it. The being I shouldn't even love in the first place, because you're supposed to love what's normal, but I've never been able to do that as a freak show. The being I've spent half my life hunting down to kill. And now here I am, with this fucking mess of my own making, after threats and torture and the world ending, and some small fucking part of me still loves him.

So, yeah. I don't think that's just a comedy line. I think that's a line that potentially has way more about Ford's feelings of alienation, of his failure to be attracted to the right person, of guilt and fear around his relationship with Bill, and especially so of others perceiving it.

EDIT (05/01/2025): Also for your consideration, as mentioned in the tags by @vespertin-y and @5p4ced-0ut, these DIRECT QUOTES BY FORD IN TBOB. ABOUT WHY ONE WOULD MAKE A DEAL WITH BILL.

All the scenarios listed by Ford apply to himself;

You're at a desperate low? Failing to find, or prove the universal weirdness theorum; but really, truly beneath that, being basically completely alone for all the years since college, and being desperately lonely and seeking affection and acceptance.

Lost something dear to you? A bit more abstract, but Ford's alone, and he's alone because he chose to lose Stan, to seek acceptance through academic achievement. And it's his loneliness that truly drives him to Bill; not academic achievement, even if that's part of the reason. He's trying to fill that void of love and acceptance thats been there since Stan left. That's something that's dear to him that he's lost. Although it could also just be a nod to Bill's magic, in that he can use it to fulfill things.

Throes of all-consuming monomaniacal ambition? Do I need to say anything about this? Ford caused the apocalypse (partly) out of his ambition.

Now of course these all lead up to the very last one: or perhaps you're just attracted to things that hurt you? This heavily implies Ford's felt, as I outlined above, some sort of attraction to Bill.

It's also a strong thing to say about their relationship. What's interesting about this one, is that at the beginning, their relationship wasn't a painful relationship for Ford; codependent as fuck, sure, but no one was actively hurting the other. It wasn't until they began to become jealous and petty with each other when Fiddleford began working that there is resentment and emotional pain, and then there's the big reveal, and all there is of their relationship for Ford is emotional pain and betrayal. In that manner, he wasn't originally attracted to Bill because of masochism in the literal sense; but rather due to rather an attraction built on genuine connection and companionship that ultimately ended horribly.

So basically, the 'attracted to someone that hurts you', is another line that falls under the heavy implication that Ford felt some sort of attraction to Bill; and that Ford struggles with shame and guilt around his attraction to Bill, especially as the comment is actually a lie (a common abuse victim lie) that minimizes their relationship, especially from Bill's side.

But he still says the sentence. So why is he lying/believing he's telling the truth? That comes down to what he's trying to diminish, and the guilt he has around attraction. The sentence, written of course post series when Ford is deeply jaded about Bill and his relationship, is written in a deeply bitter way. And it's a very self-directedly bitter way! Of course the being I fall in love with ends up betraying and hurting me; I never can do anything correctly. By saying that 'he's attracted to pain', he implicitly within the statement blames himself for the abuse, construing it as some way inevitable that this would occur due to his 'wrong' nature, especially around attraction as evident above. This self-blame and 'inevitability' is actually common to those who have low self-esteem and are victims of abuse, which Ford is. Ford already is shown to feel guilt and shame around his attraction to Bill for various reasons, such as the failure to be attracted to the right being, and doubly so with it ending up being an abusive relationship. This self-blame of 'i'm attracted to pain' denies that Ford was seeking genuine connection, and found it in Bill; it construes Bill as always having hurt Ford. Which is untrue! But this does function as a way to suppresses Ford's possible remaining positive emotions he has around Bill (by demonizing him as something horrible, understandable as he's been trying to kill him for 30 years) and also provides Ford an illusion of power over the situation; of course I had and remained in a relationship with Bill because I enjoy pain. It's easier to say (and delude yourself you like it, and you abuser may even encourage that, to avoid the pain) then admit you don't know how to escape, or fear escaping. And I think Ford did just that.

(Also, side note: What's also a kicker is that we are creatures of habit. So relationship dynamics we grow up in, are often ones we tend re-create later in life, because those are dynamics we are comfortable in, even if they are terrible dynamics. But that doesn't mean that it will always, nor have to be recreated. In some way, Ford did this; he recreated a dynamic from his father, in always looking up to Bill, and requiring praise from him to support his self esteem.)

Also, contextually, this negative recount of Bill makes sense as it's functioning as a warning for the reader within the page; informing the reader that no matter what, Bill will hurt you if you make a deal. This embarrassment and shame about Bill is contrary to some readings, in which Ford confesses to having cared about Bill; but this page is early in TBOB! It's before the pages all the rest of the family put in; it's possible this page was added 'before' the rest of the family read TBOB and Ford comes to acceptance with his feelings around Bill.

[love-byers]

we all know about the parallel of mike hugging karen when he feels like he's lost will, but i've never seen anyone talk about the other parallels in the s1 and s3 heroes scenes. there are more than you think!

will's fake body being pulled out of the quarry VS will (+ the others) pulling out of the driveway for california

a close up of mike looking at both

mike leaving the scene on his bike after 'losing' will

in one, he has no hesitation. he gets his bike and doesn't look back. not at wills fake dead body, not at el (which would be odd if he knew he was in love with her then...), not at dustin and lucas, not at anyone. he keeps moving forward.

in the other, he is full of hesitation as the other bike away, not looking back. mike stays back and takes one last look at will's house, looking nervous, before hesitantly tearing his eyes away and biking off, trailing behind dustin lucas and max.

do i really need to explain the implications of that....

mike entering the wheeler house visibly upset after losing will, and karen immediately noticing

mike seeking out a hug from karen, something he rarely does

mike hugging karen

note how both clips end with mike moving/sinking deeper into the moment. i'm not sure what the best way to describe this is, but im talking about mike shoving his face into karen's shoulder in the s1 scene and his eyes flicking down in the s3 scene. i know it seems like it doesn't matter, but it does. sprinkling things like that in as a director is purposeful! it's showing how mike is processing the events. in s1 he sinks deeper into karen's comfort, further breaking down because he thinks will is dead. in s3 he doesn't do that. he is extremely still, eyes not moving as he is in shock. then his eyes do move at the last moment, showing he is further processing whatever event has occurred, transitioning from shock to really processing whatever happened.

raw emotion vs icy shock.

and oomf @reo-bylerwagon who is a film major told me that the way the camera tilts upward in the s3 clip is used to show that a realization has occurred, or that something new is being revealed. does that not PERFECTLY line up with:

1. the way mike seems extremely shocked as though he has realized something huge

2. the fact that LITERALLY over that moment is a hopper voice over where he says "to turn back the clock, to make things go back to how they were"

and 3. the way he behaves in s4 (being weird about touching will, rink o mania, etc.)

so yeah, these are definitely parallels through and through and it's really interesting. mike has lost will in both, but in different ways. his reactions say a lot about how he's processing the events and how he views them/his relationships.

also reminder that this is not delusional in the slightest because heroes has only played twice and it's in these two sequences.

and to anyone thinking "well they're just trying to show that mike deeply cares for will, just not in a romantic way!"

......

why in the fresh FUCK would they eat up SO MUCH screen time to show that mike platonically cares about will, rather than use that time to develop his relationship with el and, i don't know, show that he loves her??? why would they feed into will's unrequited love like this??? spoiler alert: THEY AREN'T.

that would be doing WAY too much for a relationship that will end in an amicable split so one can get married and one can get over his deep seeded love for the other and navigate the (extremely homophobic) world alone.

like yall are very clearly not writers or creatives in the slightest 💀💀💀 any writer (or anyone with the faintest creative/analytical bone in their body) will immediately understand why that's fucking dumb and makes no sense. yall are just heteronormative af and instead of admitting that it's greatly affecting your perception of the characters you double and TRIPLE down until you sound like a homophobic disaster

also

season 1 - heroes plays (when mike feels like he lost will)

season 2 - heroes does not play

season 3 - heroes plays (when mike feels like he lost will)

seasons 4 - heroes does not play

season 5 - heroes will play...? perhaps the original david bowie version? and byler will finally kiss as though nothing could fall and the shame will be on the other side? and they can be heroes? just for one day?

so yeah anyways byler endgame

[crimson-and-clover-1717]

Stede Bonnet, Renaissance Man (Or an Exceptional Man who Thinks He’s Mediocre)

I’ve posted before about Stede’s love of beauty. He’s an aesthete, finding wonder in art and creative self-care rather than the transcendental. Stede’s a freethinker. He challenges the orthodoxies of his time, rejecting forced heteronormative behaviours, and even questioning the accepted traditions of piracy.

The thing about Stede is he often asks ‘why?’ It’s partly what makes him dangerous to some. This slant towards subversion is much of what Izzy observes and detests. It’s one of many reasons Stede must be kept from Ed. Like a number of Renaissance-style thinkers before him, Stede refuses to go along with the status quo. He is ‘doing something original’, questioning dogma. Many find it ridiculous, bizarre even. And it’s significant that instead Ed finds Stede enchanting, because it demonstrates who Ed might be given the chance to find his own path.

Stede is also a polymath and likely an autodidact - I doubt he learned about ‘insane foliage’ at school. He is self-motived and seems to have knowledge across a broad spectrum of disciplines. Literature, drama, botany, entomology, psychology, art, textiles. Stede’s very much about the life of the mind.

And he’ll approach areas at which he’s not so gifted, such as cartography and sword-fighting, with the enthusiasm of a dilettante; when he can’t succeed the traditional way, he simply subverts the discipline and does it his own. However, the most important thing for me in defining Stede as a Renaissance man is his humanism. People are front and centre. Sometimes that person is himself, and he loses sight of others. But it’s okay as that’s the point. Humanism is partly about being a messy individual who can do better. And Stede is someone who can learn and alter his position when circumstances change. He might not do so in the best way all of the time, but he is a quick-learner and highly-adaptable.

Stede also understands that no culture or institution is bigger than the people within it. The most important thing is human dignity - it’s what he shows and teaches Ned’s crew: that they deserve to be respected as people. Stede also has a strong moral core. When he messes up, he feels it deeply. He demonstrates strong ethics towards the natural world too - he’s absolutely disgusted by turtle vs. crab. Stede believes not so much in human superiority, but human responsibility, and this is the flip side of having dignity as a human being.

Another aspect of Stede’s humanism is his belief that culture should be accessible to all. Some of this might be naivety on Stede’s part rather than a well-thought out philosophy, but he believes in it intuitively. Stede wants the crew to have access to his library despite not recognising they can’t all read. He gives them musical instruments and sports facilities - he’s interested in what makes people flourish. And Stede practically invents art therapy!

His ship is also a safe-space for human relationships to blossom - romantic, platonic, and in between. Zheng’s ship might appear to offer collective harmony, but it’s mandated and dogmatically applied. Opting out of morning tai chi for a 24-hour shagathon might be viewed as an act of dissent. No such big brother is judging you on Stede’s Revenge.

And all of this is because of the man Stede is, and the influence he has on those around him. Sometimes it falls on deaf ears. Many don’t like what Stede’s offering. Others actively rebel against it. But anyone with an ounce of goodness will get what Stede Bonnet is about and embrace it. Stede doesn’t seem to understand his own power, it comes from such an authentic place. For me, it makes him all the more endearing.

[thatfandomslut]

Kiss Me Forever

Regina George x Reader

Word Count: 1k

Trigger Warnings: making out, kisses in random places, a lot of fluff, a lot of love, a very brief mention of internalized homophobia

Request:

Valentine's / Followers Celebrations; Regina George w/ quote 3 and piece of chocolate number 12. Or: “I wanted it to be you, I wanted it to be you so badly.” w/ random kisses

Valentine's / Followers Celebrations Requests are closed.

There was a soft sound of laughter from the room, Regina cupping (Y/n)’s cheek, softly squeezing them into a kissy face gently. “You’re so childish,” (Y/n) teased, her voice altered from the way Regina had squished her cheeks. Regina ignored her words, releasing her lips as she kissed her deeply. (Y/n) grinned in the kiss as Regina rolled into her arms, the two tangled into each other’s arms. It was sloppy but it was comfortable as they laid in each other’s arms. As they pulled away there was a large grin on their faces as they stared at each other for a moment. “You’re so pretty,” (Y/n) stated softly. There playful moment turned into a pleasant sense of calm.

Regina’s nose scrunched delicately as she pressed a soft kiss to her lips again. “Thank you, baby,” she whispered on her girlfriend’s lips. “You’re so pretty, too.” She stated as she kissed her, deepening the kiss with a smile. (Y/n) reciprocated happily as pulled away for a moment to appreciate Regina. They had known each other since middle school, but it took until they got into the same college, and happened to be dormmates to finally do something about their mutual feelings. Now, here they were, lying together in a communal silence, appreciating the fact they finally found each other.

There was a long moment of silence before Regina’s forehead leaned against (Y/n)’s. “Why didn’t we get together sooner?” She asked softly. A couple quiet moments passed, thought taking over (Y/n)’s eyes. She took too long to consider this, in Regina’s opinion. Pulling away gently, she searched her girlfriend’s eyes. “Was it because of me? Was I mean to you? I tried my best not to be.” Regina spoke with worry filling her voice. She understood her past wasn’t as clean as it could’ve been. But she had power, and she didn’t want to lose all of that. Unfortunately, she hurt a lot of people during the process.

(Y/n) looked at Regina a bit sheepishly. “You were just a bit snappy.” She confessed, tracing some shapes on Regina’s waist. She didn’t want to upset her girlfriend. There was another long silence that resulted in (Y/n) placing a kiss on Regina’s nose as she pouted. (Y/n) would kiss all of the freckles that Regina didn’t hide this late at night if she could. Instead, for now, she settled for the tip of her nose. It seemed to provide a sense of comfort for Regina as a tiny smile began to gently tug on the corners of her pretty pink lips.

“I probably was avoiding my feelings. We grew up in a heteronormative society. I knew it was okay for others to be gay, but I didn’t know if it was okay for me to be gay. But, I wanted it to be you, I wanted it to be you so badly. I was like on love with you.” Regina said softly, and (Y/n) listened to her quiet confession. By the quiver in Regina’s lips and the watery look swimming in her beautiful blue-green eyes, (Y/n) knew Regina was close to tears. “Middle school, and even high school, me… I would be in shock and disbelief. Sometimes, I still am. I love you.”

(Y/n) smiled a bit at Regina’s words, kissing the blonde softly. There was a bitterness to the kiss as stray tears made their way down Regina’s cheeks. “I love you, too,” (Y/n) whispered before kissing away Regina’s tears. A sense of victory swelled in her chest when laughter erupted from Regina’s chest as she kissed feverishly all over her girlfriend’s cheeks. (Y/n) grinned as she pulled away triumphantly, and Regina reciprocated the grin as she kissed (Y/n). The connection of their lips didn’t end as Regina’s tongue traced a path on (Y/n)’s lower lip. This led to a slow make out session with (Y/n)’s hands holding Regina’s waist as Regina cupped her cheeks.

There moment was ruined by a knock on their door. Regina groaned softly as she rolled off her girlfriend. They had momentarily forgotten they made plans with Cady and Janis for a double date. “I’m not even ready,” Regina glanced over to (Y/n), who was just as equally not ready for this double date. “What if I sent them away?” The blonde still got up, to throw on a different shirt and brush her hair. But (Y/n) had to admit that offer sounded much better. Still, she followed Regina in getting ready to go to their double date. Just as (Y/n) was about to speak, the knocking increased. It was Janis knocking, obviously. She was always impatient.

(Y/n) laughed as Regina rolled her eyes. Janis then began yelling through their dorm door. “Hurry up,” and they could hear Cady trying to calm the firecracker that was Janis Imi’ike. This created a brief thought to (Y/n) that she could just play sick and get this out of this date. Regina seemed to be thinking the same, but in the end they knew it would be wrong to cancel. But they were having such a sweet moment filled with beautiful, random kisses. Why do they have to go now?

Before they left, despite the rushing knocks, (Y/n) pulled Regina in one more time. Pressing her lips to her girlfriend’s, the two momentarily ignored the knocking and teasing from Janis as they kissed. “When we get home, we’ll plan to never leave the bed again,” (Y/n) assured Regina, though they both knew the idea was impossible. Still, it provided Regina with a grin as she nodded at the idea of them coming home and doing what they had been doing earlier: nothing.

“Okay, that’s a deal,” Regina agreed, not having to think about it. As they exited, they were exposed to a sheepish Cady and Janis who had her arms crossed as they were waiting. Janis then went on about how long they took and Regina narrowed her eyes at her as (Y/n) took her hand to keep her from snapping at Janis. “You’re going to have to repay me later and just kiss me forever.”

[erisweekofficial]

To kick off our creator highlight series that will count down the days until Eris week, we have @iftheshoef1tz! You may know her from one of her amazing fics, our bodies, possessed by light or from co-organizing the AMAZING @azrisweek.

👀 You can check out her work on AO3 and follow her on instagram here.

🔥 Need a good place to start? Check out what hath night to do with sleep, her favorite Eris fic that she's written. (It's SO good).

📙 Read more below to learn about Fitz's view on Eris and some advice for writing his character.

How do you see Eris evolving as a character in future books?

Eris is set up as both a foil and an analogue to Rhys - harsh fathers, harsh upbringings, the presence of a mask in front of others while still loving deeply. I fear that Eris will go the same way as Rhys, too, which is merely long-suffering yet kind and therefore that justifies everything he’s done, and he will suddenly be kind and sweet in a way that I don’t think his character (currently) is set up to be. I also just don’t want that man to be straight lmfao.

How do you balance canon and your own interpretations in your work?

The good and bad thing about writing Eris is that there are really tantalizing details about him, set against a backdrop of mostly vague information/general knowledge about Autumn and the Vanserras. Eris in all the universes I’ve written him is prickly, a keen observer, manipulative, prone to a superiority complex, and wary of trust, and I think these traits bear out in canon, from what little we know of him. That makes him really fun to put in Situations.

What's your favorite piece you've created featuring Eris and why?

I think my absolute favorite is What Hath Night to Do With Sleep. There’s always a little bit of me in everything I write, and writing Eris as this twenty-something guy unhappy with, unimpressed by, and honestly kind of stifled by his life is a feeling I am a bit too familiar with. I was a little afraid to take on Eris (after spending so much time in Azriel's head), but exploring his earlier life and getting myself in his head made it rewarding. Also, I managed to make him quite funny, which is something I'm not always great at conveying in my writing!

Do you have any advice for other creators wanting to make eris content?

Two things: one, write Eris the same in a straight pairing as you would a queer one. Always be vigilant for heteronormativity (in fiction and in your own life!). Two, make him smart! Bitchy is fun, but bitches can be stupid, too. (Hi, it's me.)

[sasukeless]

something i think is deeply sad about sakura’s character is how most of her feelings for sasuke clearly seem motivated by the fact that he’s “the one guy that everyone wants”

since she was little she had for an objective to marry him and become his wife, and it reminds me of how the mizukage complains that she’s a failure for not being married regardless of the fact that. she’s literally the mizukage. i wouldn’t call that a failure. but there’s such a pressure toward women to find love and have a family that it seems sakura mostly project her desire of social recognition into sasuke.

that’s why she’s happy in boruto, she has what she wanted: the proof that she married a man that everyone struggled to get, and even had a child with him.

sakura is the biggest example of male-centered women deep in society’s heteronormative norms. she goes from defining her entire worth on a boy she likes to break friendships over boy crushes, changing her entire personality to a docile girl when she’s around sasuke in attempts to get him to like her, risking herself just to get some reaction out of him, try to put down other girls (wanting to see sai insult ino), seeing them as just her rivals (sarada’s reaction to ino says alot that sakura hasn’t grown past her childish behavior / also her sticking her face over karin’s in a picture 🥴) and yeah we could be here all day.

it surprises me there’s no more conservative/catholic jokes about her as they are about hinata considering her personality but ig that would destroy the imagen people have created for her because they don’t want to admit how she rlly is in canon but the same people don’t have a problem to do with hinata so makes you wonder

but yeah she’s obviously happy, or well pretends to be as seen in gaiden because she’s living what she always dreamed. it is a broken dream ofc and she knows it but ultimately she knows she made her bed

[sevensoulmates]

7x05 Buddie Meta "You Don't Know Me" Part 1 (of 4)

Part 2, Part 3, Part 4

Welp. I'm back at it again with the four-part metas. I was hoping this one wouldn't take too long but alas there was even more to unpack in this episode than last episode.

Fair warning my meta does contain speculation, and is very much my opinion/interpretation. I will be diving into my personal opinions about Eddie's sexuality and marriage to Shannon here. My headcanon is that Eddie is a repressed gay man, not bisexual, and I believe that while he did love Shannon, he was not in love with her and their marriage was something they were pressured into and was not healthy for either of them. I do my best to look at these topics in a nuanced light, but if you are sensitive to reading opinions that differ from yours I'm warning you of mine now. Let's begin!

Taylor Wong is nothing if not an amazing comedy writer. This call didn't end up being as psychological as I may have hoped but it still acts as an interesting parallel and metaphor. "I'm the Boss of Me!" is the tagline for a self-control conference and Buck and Eddie being the ones hurt here. How they got hurt is interesting too and reflects their exact conflicts in this episode.

Buck is being choked, stopping his ability to breathe but also his ability to talk. In the context of this episode, his inability to bring himself to tell Eddie the truth weighs on him--chokes him with guilt-- until he finally does come clean near the end, and only then is he able to exhale again. For Eddie, his being grabbed by the crotch is funny, but it's also an indicator of his storyline in this episode too. He deals with sexual dysfunction because learning about Marisol being a nun makes him feel so deeply uncomfortable that the idea of being with her sexually disgusts him and stops him from having a functioning sex life. For both of them, the pain and discomfort still linger even after the claw arm guy lets him go, but my hope is that this is indicative that one day both of them will get clarity and be set free too.

"Keeping our options open" is a call back to the last episode where Buck says he's "keeping his options fluid". Whereas the last episode it seemed to be more about sexuality, options open with men and women, this time it seems to be about something else. Maybe it's an indicator of Buck keeping his options open with different people? Which is interesting considering who pops up a second later.

This is part of why I think it's a good idea they're having Buck get used to queerness with another man other than Eddie. I feel like if Buck had discovered his queerness with Eddie, these kinds of issues might've been blown out of proportion on both of their ends and probably caused much MUCH bigger problems. Allowing Buck the chance to work through this with someone safer was a good bet.

Additionally, I find it interesting here that both Buck and Eddie are dealing with external and internal conflicts that mirror each other in this episode. In this instance, it's the fear of being Perceived. For Eddie, being perceived by God. For Buck, being perceived by Heteronormative Society at large.

This would be an adjustment for anyone, so I don't necessarily think Buck is dealing with internalized homophobia that's too detrimental. I think it's more so he needs an adjustment period and needs to figure out why he's uncomfortable. Is it the idea of being perceived as queer by others? Is it the idea of being perceived as queer by Eddie? Is it the fact that you are on a date with a man? Or is it because you're not sure if you're on a date with the right man? More on this when we get to his scene with Maddie.

Now I had a strong feeling that Tommy was going to be someone who only figured out who he was later in life too. And it seems a lot of that was due to his past, possibly how he grew up, and being in the 118 under Gerard who was every "ist" in the book. It goes to show how far Tommy has come and also proves to be interesting if we keep thinking of Tommy as a parallel to Eddie. I also had a feeling that Tommy was going to lean slightly more toward the gay side (though he's purposefully unlabeled which is fair).

To me, the phrase "lying about who I was" seems to align more with someone who is into men and not into women, but that's just my interpretation. Especially because in the next moment, Buck says that he's not lying about how he is, which is more in line with the bisexual experience.

Because Buck isn't lying. He was always/still currently is attracted to women, and is only just now discovering a new aspect of himself with his attraction to men. Whereas Tommy seems to be implying that when he was with women he was lying to himself about his attraction to them. Sound like anyone else we know?

Additionally, we have another call back to 7x04 (plus a myriad of other episodes) where Buck "makes it about him" when Tommy was really just trying to tell Buck more about himself, not imply that Buck was also lying. I'm going to give Buck some grace here because this is all new for him, so I understand his hyper-sensitivity. But it is once again showing another instance of Buck failing to really connect with Tommy about something related just to Tommy. Last episode, every conversation they had always found its way back to Eddie or was about Buck's feelings regarding what was happening. This time, when Tommy tries to be vulnerable and connect with Buck, Buck makes it about him and it feels like a misconnection (like how I predicted with the missed hand grab in 7x03 with Tommy and Buck trying to connect, but something always not quite hitting the intended target).

If down the road we see Tommy's (abridged) story about "lying to himself" come to fruition in a similar light with Eddie's storyline I'm going to be delighted. Here Buck is out on a date with a man who the last episode spent the entire time telling us was extremely similar to Eddie, only to have Tommy align perfectly with a lot of our headcanons about Eddie's sexuality too. I think this is something to stick a pin in to come back to later for sure.

Oh, Buck. OH, baby bi Buck. My heart aches for you and my body cringes. He's obviously on edge, but Eddie showing up just makes it worse. Buck immediately tries to no homo not just himself, but Tommy as well, stating that they're going to go find some "hot chicks" to pick up. Eddie makes a face, obviously picking up on the weirdness of Buck's statement (because "picking up chicks" is wildly out of character for current Buck and has been for years) but he's too distracted with Marisol to dig any deeper into it. He believes it very easily instead of stopping to question why else these two men might be on what looks like an intimate date. Tommy looks hurt, and I feel bad for him, but this was obviously his breaking point, and I can understand why.

I want to briefly touch on Eddie and the way he was speaking about Marisol throughout the entire episode separately from the whole nun thing. I found this piece of dialogue so odd here, because in general this isn't really how Eddie talks, it doesn't feel natural for him, but at the same time, it also harkens back to some of his horrendous dialogue with Ana back in season 5. "This hot chick already found her firefighter" "Spank me with a ruler" "kinda naughty" "Grade me on a curve" "Maybe you need to keep me after class", etc.

I've always wondered why Eddie starts talking like this about or with his girlfriends. I was discussing it with my roommate and she said to her it sounded like an "8th grade boy sitting with his guy friends trying to talk up how he banged some chick when really it's just a ploy to make himself look good to the boys and like he's more sexually active than he actually is for social clout". And you know what? I think that's exactly what it is. Eddie speaking like this feels like overcompensation on so many levels (not to mention Marisol looks lowkey uncomfortable here, that smile is fake af). Trying to make himself seem way more into sex or kinky things (like roleplaying with a teacher or nun) than he actually is. The dialogue is cringey and Ryan overacts it because the audience isn't supposed to feel comfortable with it. It's not supposed to feel natural. It's not supposed to endear us to the couple, it's meant to feel out of place and wrong because Eddie being with Ana and Marisol was and is out of place and wrong. It feels like a performance to us because IT IS A PERFORMANCE.

This is only enhanced by the new jarring information that Eddie has apparently asked Marisol to move in with him (offscreen). Keep in mind that they've been together for (I'm assuming) less than six months, he obviously didn't discuss it with anyone since both Tommy, Buck, and Bobby later are surprised. Christopher is also noticeably absent from this episode which leads me to believe he likely didn't really discuss it with him beforehand. This choice feels simultaneously like an OOC choice AND so very in character.

It's OOC because Eddie has stated that he doesn't like performing, he doesn't want a "ready-made family" and one would think that he would sit and contemplate this seriously given that if something goes wrong, he's providing another example of a failed relationship to his son. Not to mention that living with your parent's girlfriend is a huge thing. I've been through that process before in my own life with my mom and it's really only something you do if you're really committing to a person for the long haul because that's the message that sends to your kids.

But at the same time, this is also so severely in character for Eddie. As is pointed out later, he got married to Shannon because he was guilted into it, he dated Ana because he was pressured into it, and then overcommitted to her far too fast. And now he's doing the same thing with Marisol. This is very much a PATTERN for Eddie. Maybe, as this episode suggests, it's a facet of Catholic guilt that pushes Eddie to move way too fast in his relationships. Or maybe, Eddie finds the idea of being settled with a woman comforting, and he'd be okay sacrificing his happiness and settling with any woman as long as he got to have that comforting facade. All of this points to very obvious compulsory heterosexuality for me. More on this later.

I'm going to talk more about the way the show is choosing to use physical objects, Marisol's things, as a metaphor for who Marisol is, and Eddie's willingness to receive/learn about them as a literary device later. For now, I wanna talk about the exchange of Eddie being the one to bring up "closet space", Tommy being the one to say "Aint't that the truth" and point it towards Buck, who hammers it home with his "bro" line. I find it interesting that they had Eddie say this line, when it very easily could've been Marisol (after all it is her armoire) with Tommy in the middle. Tommy (IMO) is in the center of these two men's queer realization arc. The more subtle one in the earliest stages (Eddie) and the more present one (Buck). The way all of them volleyed this dialogue felt like I was watching a choreographed play, and the lines landed perfectly.

This is also the third line in five episodes specifically poking at Eddie possibly being queer alongside Tommy and Buck. "I've never seen a man turn off a woman with such skill. it's a gift" "you both like to watch half-naked men pummel each other" and now this. "You can never have enough closet space" suggesting that not only was there Tommy in the closet in the past, Buck in the closet recently (and somewhat presently given that Buck just shoved himself and Tommy back into it), and Eddie right now still deep in that closet. Hopefully, there's enough space for all y'all!

I very much liked how this went down. Tommy has a right to break things off if the person he's with clearly exhibits weirdness around being out with you. I don't blame him for his choice here. I like that he's also not making it about the fact that's he inexperienced. Additionally, I think this is another instance of Tommy witnessing something weird between Buck and Eddie, and I'm not sure how much of that he's picking up on, or if he thinks it's generally about being perceived as queer, or just needing to slow things down and process before he actually starts a relationship with a man. All are valid, but I think it's just interesting that a lot of it had to do with Eddie yet again, and I wonder how much of that Tommy is aware of.

From the start of this conversation with Maddie, Buck makes it seem like the thing that's making him uncomfortable most is the fact that he lied to Eddie about the truth of his date with Tommy. Obviously, he's not going to immediately jump into telling Maddie the truth, and he's gotta start the conversation somewhere, but I do find it interesting that rather than seeking her advice on "how to get his date back" he instead is seeking advice on why he lied to Eddie and can't bring himself to tell him the truth.

This could be deflecting because he's not yet ready to tell Maddie. Or it could be the truth that all of this angst may stem from him still trying to get comfortable in his queerness. But the main issue that isn't sitting right with his soul is that he lied to Eddie, that he's hiding a fundamental piece of the truth of who he is from Eddie. Because to Buck it is unthinkable that Eddie doesn't always know the whole truth, all of who Buck is, at all times. At this point in their relationship, they're supposed to know everything about each other, and yet something about sharing this part of himself with Eddie in particular scares him. Could it possibly be that he's aware that sometimes "straight" men get weird around their queer male friends? Could it be that he thinks his relationship with Eddie would be negatively effected if he told Eddie this truth? I will touch more on this later. But for now, Buck makes it clear that his interest isn't wholly in getting Tommy back right now. It's making sure that all is right in his relationship with Eddie.

Once again, this choice by the writers to center Eddie in every step of the way of Buck's queer realization journey is telling. Especially given that he's able to tell Maddie without ~too~ much struggle.

I understand where Buck is coming from. It's again distancing himself from Tommy, trying to get her advice about Eddie. But also, it's an attempt by him to normalize him going on a date with a man, which should be normal, but it's not in Buck's personal historical normal.

Buck wants to believe that because he was an "ally" that that means he'd just be automatically okay with dating a man right away. But I think he's trying to push himself at a speed faster than he's comfortable with (which he again does at the end by inviting Tommy to Madney's wedding) and needs to realize that he can slow down, which is a parallel with Eddie the whole episode. Which is why I think Tommy was right to step back and give him some time. The other part that is interesting is that Buck once again appears confused about the truth of his feelings, similar to the last episode and I just find it interesting in this scene where Buck and Maddie are once again talking about Eddie at her house, it's once again ambiguous if the subject Buck's really hung up on is Tommy....or Eddie. Both are true at the same time.

Go to part 2!

Part 2, Part 3, Part 4

[leader-of-grandys]

Okay it seems like rlly unpopular opinion in this fandom. I mean I saw a lot of fics, hdcs and posts where leroux!Erik is bi, pan or straighty and always very like VERY horny and very into all that stuff

but

BUT

I'll duplicate some of the thoughts that I wrote earlier. I personally see leroux!Erik as 1000% asexual because c’mon. This man is afraid of touching esp touching women. For him the biggest joy was INNOCENT KISS on the forehead. And judging by his wishes about his marriage where all he does is going for walkies while holding hands, singing and showing magic tricks is….. you know….. This speaks volumes. I bet he doesn't even think about other more physical aspects, for him it is just a fluffy romantic fantasy (and he's prob read hell of a lot snotty romantic novels while kicking his legs and screaming in pillow). He seeks romantic love and he wants to be loved and accepted as he is, but I see it as purely platonic feelings, not physical. And honestly how he treats Christine and calls her my angel, my saviour and all that stuff????? He idealises her to the core and sees her almost like a divine being - pure and kind. Do you really think that he would project his fantasies on her????? (but I highly doubt that he even has them and I see him as a castrato but its a whole different topic for another day) Do you think he would even allow himself to do that???? I bet he would just roll on the floor like sopping wet cat and scream that he's not allowed to touch this pure being with his disgusting cadaverous hands. Erik was SHOCKED that someone WILLINGLY touched him without running away, showed him compassion and understanding even despite his abuse and threats. All that because he thought he didn't deserve it, that he is so ugly that he can't be treated like a normal human being.

Also about that marriage stuff. I think Erik didn't desire the marriage as most ppl do. For him its just a way to prove that he is like everyone else because wakie wakie, it is a 19th century's heteronormative society where if you are single and were never married at almost 50 years old, then something is deeply wrong with you. Erik didn't want to marry in a first place - for him it's just an instrument to fit in in a strict society that rejected him. Honestly its sooooo autistic coded for me (I'm autistic btw). Dude just went too hard in attempt to fit in but failed miserably. Another thing for me that strikes is that the marriage for Erik could be seen as a guarantee that the person he loves will never leave him (bc divorces at that time were an awfully difficult procedure, you know). He was so insecure about himself, scared to death that he would be abandoned, betrayed, and rejected again and then boom, there's a guarantee drop, a wonderful idea that everyone praised and romanticised in all books. Marriage. You don't have to handcuff anyone to the battery and cry on the floor praying not to leave you because the law will do it for you. I think you see where I'm going. I also have high suspicions where's Erik really felt love or he was so lonely and depressed at that point of his life that he accepted an ordinary friendship and politeness as a pure and beautiful love to the grave (literally) and the only chance for happiness. When Christine didn't suspect a thing, he already drew in his diary himself walking with her in the park and framing it with hearts while lying on the bed like a schoolgirl. Again very autistic trait that I've noticed in myself. To think that you are a genius and have thought everything 10 steps ahead, that the person will act according to your plan and that the regular good word (said purely out of politeness by the person who is not interested in you) is the beginning of a great unbreakable friendship for the ages. If you know you know. I rlly see it as Erik imagined himself castles in the air and saw his deep desire for friendship and acceptance as true love. Because all pll are saying that love is great so it 100% must be it, right? ...........................right? The problem with interpreting your true emotions and feelings are unironically hard. Phew, okay. What I'm trying to say is that I see leroux!Erik as an asexual autistic individual. I don't say that it's canon and theres the only way to view this character because what I say is based not only on my unbiased analysis but also on my neurodivergent experience and kinda similar life problems (but much, MUCH LESS serious and with access to therapy and treatment). Pls don't write mean things to me if you disagree, you have your right to do so but do it outside my askbox. I’m open to discussion but not conflicts. Thanks

[rainbowsky]

Hello hello! Baby YiZhan fan here :) totally random but...... I was watching the whole Untamed BTS and I noticed that on 2018.05.04 their interaction was kind of different, WY with his hands on XZ shoulder a couple times, their "can you find my nipple?" game (hahahaha), they were very touchy with each other. I tried and didn't find any theories about his specific date but it seems something changed from that point on. Do you know if there is anything about it?

Hi new turtle! 💛🐢💛

Well, there are various dates that different turtles focus on based on how particular BTS clips land on them. Not every turtle reacts the same way to the same clips. It can be a very personal thing. What one turtle finds very exciting, another turtle won't be moved by at all. Everything is an interpretation and nobody knows what really happened, so we all just clown and theorize according to our personal interests.

There is also a lot of unreleased BTS, so there are gaps in our understanding of how things unfolded during filming. In the absence of information some turtles will try to fill in those gaps with theories, and others will ignore those parts and focus on the content that we do have.

As for my own take on this particular date, I think it's entirely unknowable and therefore I don't see a huge point in digging too deeply into it. After all, this all happened 5 years ago. It's water under the bridge, really.

I don't think that I would immediately jump to something shifting in their relationship that makes them suddenly more comfortable with each other.

For one thing, I think the idea that there is such a huge change in their level of comfort with each other is very debatable. There are moments from the first days of filming where they look quite comfortable with each other and some moments later in filming where people could interpret them as not looking very comfortable with each other at all.

It could be that they're tired and don't have a lot of energy and therefore don't appear to have a lot of sparks with each other in certain moments, or it could be that they had an argument, or that some personal or career stress is distracting them, or that some other third party has said something to them to make them more subdued with each other. We just don't know.

Only GG and DD know exactly how they felt and why they behaved the way they did at any given time. What we might read as being about their level of social comfort with each other could be about something entirely different, and our fixation on their sometimes awkward behavior in the beginning could simply be because we know it's the beginning. The difference might not be there at all.

Compare some of the later moments with some of the earlier ones and is there really that big of a difference? Even if we humor the idea that there is a difference, there are plenty of alternative explanations.

Devil's Timeline people sometimes theorize that they were trying to hide their relationship in the early days, therefore they acted a bit distant with each other to keep up the charade but quickly grew tired of making the effort, or forgot to keep the pretense up.

One of the things that fans most frequently forget to take into consideration is GG and DD's experience as queer people in a heteronormative society. I think it's worthwhile to consider what it would feel like to go on to a movie set with a whole bunch of strangers and to be acting across from your gay partner in a climate such as the one in China. I think any perceived tension between them in front of the cameras at the time could be easily explained by that alone.

I talk about the climate on set in a bit more detail in this post.

Any shift in their behavior on any particular date could be entirely because of conversations they had with production that we are not privy to. That could be the date they fully realized just how queer-friendly the environment was for them on set. Perhaps they were able to relax from that point forward in the certainty that production had their best interests at heart and would protect them as a couple.

We simply don't know. Everything is CPN, and everyone will have their own take on it based on their own perspective. As a gay person I'm more likely to theorize based on my understanding of the social realities of being gay in a heteronormative society. Others might be more drawn to the romance, and still others might be trying to build a case for their own personal timeline.

My advice is to not get too married to any one particular theory of how things happened. After all, it could have happened any number of ways. We will probably never know what really happened, so there's no point in attaching ourselves too much to a specific perspective.

I find it more fun to look at it from a bunch of different angles and come up with different reactions or theories based on that. If they got together during filming, what might be happening here? If they were already together, what might be happening there? That kind of thing. I did that with my Japan trip post, and several others you might encounter as you browse through my blog.

Most importantly, no one can tell anyone that their perspective is the right and true one. We will never know for sure. We are all clowns working from the same information and taking it in our own personal directions based on our own personal backgrounds, baggage, interests, etc., and based on what we need from fandom.

As a new turtle you might find my masterlist post helpful. There are a bunch of older posts and lists and resources there that new turtles might find useful.

[messymindofmine]

Fandoms and Marginalized Communities

Before I say anything, I want to make it known that everything I say, I am saying as Muslim WOC. I am also saying it as someone with a best friend who is the reason I got into Lone Star to begin with. This best friend is a gay, Jewish man who is also a recovering addict. One of the first things he said to me about the show was that it felt like TK Strand was written especially for him. However, my friend (who was in the fandom since the beginning) left a while back because he finally decided he was sick of feeling unsafe in the fandom. This was a feeling he had since the beginning that had gotten progressively worse.

As disappointing as it has been since s4 to see the way people turned on Carlos, I do appreciate how many people are calling it out. Even though I don't come from the same background as Carlos, I do know what it is like to come from a culture that pushes you into a heteronormative role and so I can empathize with Carlos on his reasoning for marrying Iris and then keeping it a secret even if I wish he had told TK sooner. But then of course he felt like he couldn't because when you have spent your whole life feeling like you could be rejected for revealing something about yourself, it's extremely hard to move beyond it.

That said, I do think it is important as a fandom to talk about reactions we have to characters and why we need to check our own biases. I'm not saying that people have to agree and love every single thing that Carlos does but we can and should give grace to him and consider why he is doing something. It is deeply problematic to assume that he is going to be a bad, neglectful husband the way people were prior to 5X05. Same with how people reacted towards him in s4. You can be upset about a character's decisions while also being compassionate about why they are behaving that way. To go "well they suck and are bad" and interpret every single thing they do with the worst-faith interpretation is deeply problematic when discussing a character of color.

I have been having conversations with the friend I mentioned before about all this stuff and one thing that he said to me that has stuck with me is how one big reason why he left the fandom was because he kept seeing people bring up the ableism TK has gotten since the start of the show in conversations about Carlos and racism and to him it felt deeply insulting because it felt like those people were just using ableism as a way to deflect from the conversation about Carlos and not because they actually care about the issue. Especially since so many of them are the same ones that never had anything to say about the ableism in the past and even indulged in it before s4 when they turned on Carlos. @paperstorm and I have also talked about this and how it's so frustrating that when a conversation is being had about racism, people who have never cared about ableism before will bring it up as a weapon. I do feel like it is extremely important to have conversations about ableism in the fandom because just like racism, misogyny and homophobia, it has been an issue in every fandom I have ever been a part of but bringing it up in the context of a conversation about racism towards Carlos is not the right time and only serves to diminish the seriousness of ableism as an issue. It is not a weapon to be used to deflect and silence people who are hurt by how Carlos has been treated since s4.

That said, I do want to acknowledge the frustration and hurt that I know a lot of people are feeling when it seems like conversations about Carlos are being had in a way that conversations about TK have never really been had. There are people who have talked about TK and ableism but those conversations have been on a pretty small scale. I get the hurt because I feel it too seeing big blogs talking about Carlos and racism and even unintentionally making it seem as though TK has always been favored by the fandom because he is white. I know that it can be hurtful to see people say that Carlos is only getting hate because he is no longer perfect for TK as though TK wasn't the one on the receiving end of hate since 1x02. It is important to acknowledge that Carlos was put on a pedestal right up until s4 and defense of him was done at the expense of TK. When 3x13 aired, people were outright accusing TK of cheating with Cooper and just generally hating on him because they felt he made Carlos sad by excluding him. This was actually deeply triggering for my friend because he is in recovery himself. Let me tell you, it was painful for me to see how much it hurt him seeing the way TK was called selfish and all kind of other things because it is something he has to live with on a daily basis in his own life. There have been so many times since the show first started that people have said things about how Carlos deserves better and how TK just doesn't love Carlos as much as Carlos loves him. How TK gets all the care and attention and he never does anything for Carlos. How TK gets special treatment from the fandom. All of these things and so much more. And then in s4, when these same people turned on Carlos and started using TK as a weapon, it became too much for my friend and he left the fandom. I know he is not the only one who did so for the same reason.

I just wish that people would understand that conversations about TK and Carlos can both be had and we can even talk about how bigotry towards different groups are ultimately the same in the way they are perpetuated. That is to say, it's not always they obvious ways of using slurs but in the way of microaggressions. I also think it is important when defending Carlos to not ignore the hate TK has gotten. I'm not saying we have to bring it up in detail in every conversation but simply just not making it seem like TK gets favored. There was a double standard against TK right from 1x02 and it's not fair to ignore that. Actually, even the way people weaponize TK is a big microaggression. To act like somehow he has no agency in his own marriage and that he is going to fall apart if he doesn't have Carlos' attention is a big microaggression because it leans into this idea of addicts being selfish and weak. The TK that exists in the show is the opposite of both these things and it is just as offensive to speak about him as though he is those things as it is to make Carlos out to be a terrible, neglectful husband.

Overall, we all need to be more careful about how we speak and write about characters. And even if our only intention for wanting a character to make a mistake is to maximize angst, we need to be careful about how we project our desire for angst. Wanting Carlos to mess up because the angst potential of it is exciting is still a microaggression both because it villainizes him unfairly and because it takes agency away from TK. The same applies the other way round too. Wanting TK to mess up for the sake of angst (as has happened) is also a microaggression because it villainizes him unfairly and it takes agency away from Carlos. When we talk about characters that represent marginalized communities of any kind, we need to take these things into consideration. We also need to listen to others when these issues are called out. If your response to someone pointing out something that is offensive is anger and deflection, that is on you. As someone who has been in this fandom since the beginning and has seen people leave because they feel unsafe for any reason, I don't want that to happen to anyone else. We can have fun and escape real life in fandom while also calling things out. We can also call out one issues without ignoring or minimizing others. I know it can be a hard thing to balance sometimes but the best thing for us to do when it comes to situations like this is to be open-minded and willing to learn and grow ourselves rather than lashing out at others for speaking up about something that hurts them.

[mileven11forever]

Hey! I disagree with you completely but I respect that you seem to be a kind and respectful Mileven. So I’m curious.

What would you say to the idea that if Mileven is endgame, based on the way the story has been written especially in S4 (with Will being in every Mileven shot, Will’s painting inspiring Mike to monologue to El, paralleling Byler to Rovickie and other ships, just the whole story of building out Will’s feelings for Mike over 4 seasons in what would be a slowburn rejection if you’re right), the Duffers have inherently crafted a homophobic and problematic story?

Most Bylers don’t just believe Byler endgame makes the most sense for the story, nor do we just believe it would be queerbaiting because of promotion outside the show. We believe the story itself is deeply problematic when viewed through a Mileven endgame lens.

The idea that this kid Will would go through all of this suffering and that they’d emphasize the bond between Mike and Will in this way… the idea that Will would say “I’m not gonna fall in love” in S3 because he doesn’t believe there’s love for gay kids like him… the idea of the painting veiled confession… the idea that the writers would have Byler literally end the season together side by side alongside other canon couples… only to have Mike reject Will in S5?

We believe that to be horribly homophobic writing, so to us it’s not simply a question of which ship we like more like other ship wars in history, but a real moral line in the sand. We believe it’s either Byler endgame, or the show falls apart, and the writers have explaining to do.

It’s not that hypothetical story of a gay kid falling in love with his straight best friend is homophobic, it’s the specific narrative choices that would be surrounding Mileven endgame in this context, each of them completely avoidabl, each of them specific decisions the writers made.

Additionally, Bylers believe Mileven endgame would A) make the show’s writing weaker and less meaningful, B) make the show make significantly less sense from a writing standpoint, and C) go against the main themes of the narrative.

Lastly, if Will were a girl, based on the way Mileven and Byler have both been written, there’s no way Milevens wouldn’t see the clear love triangle. The only reason it’s difficult for some to see it is because of heteronormativity and the idea that Mike is straight because he has a girlfriend. If you remove that, there aren’t any barriers to at least seeing the clear triangle.

Thoughts?

I honestly just disagree. I don't think there's anything wrong with the story and the way it's being told. Will being in Mileven shots in season 4 is because it was from his POV in those moments. Will's painting didn't really inspire Mike's monologue, he just helped Mike find the courage to tell El how he really feels. And I don't really see the parallels people point out as being significant proof of anything. I do think Will's story will involve being rejected by Mike, while also being accepted by Mike as a friend. That's just what his story is, that's something a lot of queer people go through, there's nothing wrong with writing a character having to deal with and overcome that. I think it'll be an important part of Will's arc and character development. I don't see anything problematic or homophobic with any of that personally.

Yes, Will has suffered a lot unfortunately, but that's just his story, that's how life is for some people. He's unlucky and has just happened to be in these awful situations throughout his life, but that has nothing to do with Mike or his feelings. It's sad, but that's just how it is. Just like Will can't control how he feels about Mike, Mike can't control how he feels either, and that he loves El and just loves Will as a friend. It sucks that Will fell for his straight best friend, but that happens lots in real life too. And yeah, Will thinks he can't have love like everyone else because of his sexuality, and because of the time and place he lives in, which sucks, but also doesn't mean that he's automatically going to end up with his childhood crush. I think he should end up with someone eventually, but I just don't think it can be Mike. He needs to learn that he can have love and be loved, but just how he can't choose his sexuality, Mike can't either. They both can't change who they are, and that's ok.

I do think the painting will come up at some point and probably lead to Will's confession to Mike, but again, that's just Will finally sharing his feelings which has nothing to do with how Mike will respond. It'll be complicated, but Mike isn't going to just suddenly fall in love with Will when he finds out the truth about the painting.

And Mike and Will stand together at the end because they're friends. Just because the other pairs happen to be couples doesn't mean Byler is going to be endgame. That would be ridiculous in my opinion. I really don't understand when Bylers look so deep into little details like this and use that as evidence, it could literally mean nothing, or something other than Byler.

Once again, I don't think the writing choices the Duffers have made are homophobic, they just want to tell Will's story a certain way, and I don't see a problem with it.

I just don't agree. I think Mileven endgame is good writing, I think Byler endgame would make no sense. Mileven doesn't make the messages of the show any less meaningful in my opinion.

And yeah, I think that's probably true for some people. Heteronormativity is very prevalent and some people are definitely in denial about the obvious love triangle. I accept that there is a love triangle there, I just don't agree with a lot of people on how it will be resolved. Will likes Mike, El likes Mike, and Mike likes El. That's how I see it. I feel like the show has made this clear, and it's obvious which couple is actually happening in the canon story. Some Bylers just read a lot of meaning into things that I don't think was meant to be read like that.

If anyone has anything else to add, leave a comment or reblog this post.