#bi pan discourse

[anarcho-catboyism]

A lot of discourse could stop if y'all stopped approaching every situation with this idea that your experience is the default one

[gray-ace-space]

recently encountered a post where someone said "gender is fluid but sexuality isn't". (they were talking about bi lesbians.)

my first thought was: does that person, like. hear what they're saying? how can you explicitly hold two beliefs that are so logically inconsistent and not see it? how can you simultaneously think gender is this fluid and complex thing, but sexuality, much of which is defined around gender, is simple and stationary and its boundaries need policing?

but like, fuck, why even argue against it, right? there is no internal logic because there is no logical thought behind it. these are not genuine beliefs. this person is repeating what is currently acceptable in their (small) specific social circle. this is the same person who, a few years back, would be excluding nonbinary lesbians, but nonbinary lesbians are cool and normal on queer tumblr now, so they'll exclude bi lesbians instead, and not even pause to reflect on the difference.

oh, and if you read this and thought "these people don't even actually accept nb lesbians either", ding ding ding! because it's not a real, deep belief, that acceptance is extremely shallow and conditional. so as soon as someone is an nb lesbian in a way these people find odd (like being both a man and a lesbian) they will exclude them too and find a way to justify it.

why do we have to endlessly go through this cycle with queer identities. can we not? can we just not. i'm tired.

[hussyknee]

One thing you have to remember is that online queer discourse doesn't make a damn bit of difference to systemic queerphobia irl or LGBT rights. No amount of playing respectability politics by identifying the "real freaks" will ever lead to sexual emancipation or prevent sexual violence. No amount of trying to identify and cast out "oppressors" and "infiltrators" will ever make homophobes and transphobes respect the sanctity of your sexual identity. Not letting people have words and flags and colours is absolutely nothing except a weapon for online harrassment and clout-chasing wielded by white and Western weirdos who've drunk the colonizer Kool-Aid.

[silly-media-enjoyer]

reminder that being queer is not a medical condition and you don't have to fit in a specific set of symptoms to use certain labels. just call yourself whatever you'd like even if you don't fit in the commonly accepted definition.

[hiriamcdaniels]

Don't make me tap the sign

[existennialmemes]

I'm just over here, being Bisexual and having immense overwhelming love for my Pansexual comrades, because the words other people use to define themselves are not about me <3

[autisticrorygilmore]

”mspec lesbians and lesboys DNI” BOOOOO!! 🍅 BOOOO!!!! 🍅 🍅 🍅

[zarekthelordofthefries]

BG3 Companion Sexuality Headcanons

Astarion: Pansexual. Has a slight preference for men. Has a complicated relationship with feelings of attraction and connection, so doesn't usually like thinking about his own sexual identity. Thinks Wyll is the hottest other party member.

Lae'zel: Pansexual, kind of. Doesn't really relate to sex and gender in the same way as the Faerunian companions. Githyanki socially de-emphasize romance, and all sex is generally for pleasure since Vlaakith decides who bears eggs. Lae'zel is alloromantic, but romance isn't generally at the front of her mind in a relationship. Neither is gender; ultimately Lae'zel is attracted to conviction and fighting prowess, moreso even than anything physical.

Shadowheart: Bisexual. Very slight preference for men. (EDIT: I've rotated this in my mind after people pointed it out and I think actually Shadowheart has a slight preference for women.) Remained closeted into adulthood, not because the other Sharrans would discriminate against her (they generally don't care about sexuality) but because she wanted to impress everyone with how well she could keep the secret. Also, excessively kinky.

Gale: Bisexual. Has more experience with women than with men, but that has more to do with circumstances than preference. Though physical appearance isn't not a factor, he would probably describe himself as a sapiosexual; he's attracted to knowledge, intellectual curiosity, and strong opinions. Had crushes on several teachers in wizard school.

Wyll: Bisexual. Realized he wasn't just attracted to women at a young age, and his father was very supportive. No preference between genders, but one of his favorite things to do is court gentlemen exactly the same way he courts ladies; he likes being the devoted chivalric prince to men since he knows it's less common for them to be flattered and told they're beautiful.

Karlach: Pansexual. Years of being unable to make genuine connections with anyone have made her horny for affection, kindness, and commitment. Maybe had some gender preference before going to Hell, but her time there has given her lots of time to consider basically any options. Has at least a slight crush on basically every other party member.

Halsin: Pansexual. No gender preference. Halsin has had centuries to explore his sexuality, and his robust understanding of nature gives him a non-binary perspective on gender and sex. Nothing is a casual fling for this dude, though -- if you show the slightest bit of interest in him he will dedicate his whole heart to you. And also anyone else who shows interest in him at the same time.

Minthara: I didn't actually have Minthara in my party, but from what I've seen she seems like a pretty traditional drow, and when I think of drow and sexuality I sort of imagine a reverse of ancient Greek customs; bisexuality is the norm, men are prized for their beauty and for marriagibility, but it's expected that women will also have flings with other women, and those relationships are often considered more meaningful. I imagine Minthara follows those lines, being bisexual and assuming she may one day marry a beautiful man but being more inclined to meaningful, affectionate relationships with women, due to her own prejudices moreso than preference between genders.

Jaheira: Thought she was straight for the first century of her life, but has more recently opened up to other possibilities. Isn't particularly interested in marriage or a deep interpersonal romance at this point in her life, but she has entered a state of questioning her sexuality -- she's just not super interested in experimenting with actual relationships. She's got more important stuff to do. Did have a fling with Ninefingers that neither of them tell anyone about.

Minsc: Doesn't like labels. Minsc isn't interested in finding a partner, doesn't really care about sex, and is enthusiastic about romance mainly when other people do it. He hasn't given a lot of thought to where he might fall on any sexual/romantic spectrum, but he definitely sees beauty in all of his friends. He will give you the most heartfelt and often embarassing compliments on your personality, style, and appearance. Does that mean he's attracted to you? Maybe, maybe not, but there's definitely something queerplatonic going on.

[luckytheburger]

"Homoromantic bisexuals are valid but bi lesbians aren't" so close! You are actually just Fucking Stupid

[lesbian-ashe]

pisses me off how lesbians don't get to have authority on lesbianism. can't decide what it does and doesn't mean, can't decide what is and isn't lesbophobia. can't even have your own spaces without being called a terf no matter how inclusive you are to trans women. or even if you are a trans lesbian. everyone gets to dictate lesbianism except lesbians, and they don't have to listen to us either

[naomiknight-17]

Any time someone refers to a member of the queer community as 'exempt' from some kind of bigotry or 'straight passing' or whatever it really rubs me the wrong way.

I'm not a trans woman, so I'm 'exempt'' from trans misogyny. But am I really? What about all the cis, gnc, and intersex women who are mistaken for trans women and targeted as such?

What about the fact that one of my parents is an intersex trans woman? You think the bullshit they face doesn't affect me? Affect my whole family??

I'm exempt from lesbophobia, because I am not a lesbian. But I was still verbally assaulted on a bus for being a 'filthy pussy licker' for no reason I could discern other than I have an undercut.

My partner and I may 'pass' as a straight couple, but do you really think it's a privilege to be mistaken for something I'm not? To get dirty looks when I'm buying/wearing pride stuff with my husband beside me?

Why do we have to split it up into microlabels of who gets subjected to what kind of bigotry?

I am not saying not to talk about your own unique experience, of course not. And of course some of the terms and labels for certain kinds of discrimination are useful for expressing what you're facing. But dismissing everyone else's experience because 'oh well they're exempt/immune to the exact kind of bigotry I face'?

I dunno. Just seems shitty to me

[anarcho-catboyism]

Sorry but you're not a "totally progressive radical queer" if everytime you see a gender or sexuality you don't understand you become a fucking Conservative about it.

[estrogenism]

"bi lesbians are centering men in lesbian spaces-" you literally use "nonmen loving nonmen" as the definition of lesbian.

[purpurussy]

I feel like the "dan is bi" anon is trolling but just in case they're genuinely confused: yes dan said in BIG that he loved and felt attracted to his high school gf (although he also made it pretty clear that they did not have sex so idk where anon is getting the idea that he has slept with "multiple women" 💀), and he alluded to his attraction not being confined to a specific gender in the part where he talked about labels, but you're completely taking all of that wildly out of context and missing the point of the whole video by calling him bi. I feel like this is probably the part that's frying their brain:

(shoutout to the legend @goldenpinof for this transcript!)

But firstly, imo it was very clear from BIG, as well as other stuff he's said over the years, that he just doesn't like labels. Which I find very valid, it took me a long time to figure out how to label myself. I still don't know what my gender is lmao but I started saying "bi" for my sexuality because it's a widely-used term that gets the point across. And I think that's the thing here: he came to the conclusion that the labels "gay" and "queer" are the best descriptors of his identity, which do the most accurate job of approximating something extremely psychologically complex and multilayered and nuanced in a simple everyday term that gets the point across to other people.

Obviously words mean things and it doesn't make sense to just pick a label at random (like for example it wouldn't make sense for me to identify as a lesbian, since I definitely feel attraction to men as well as women and everything outside the binary, and am interested in acting on that attraction at times, so I wouldn't be conveying accurate information to other people if I used the label lesbian for myself) but a label is just supposed to serve the task of conveying relevant information to other people (if a lesbian feels some kind of abstract attraction to dan and phil, that doesn't mean that the alphabet council needs to immediately revoke their lesbian card!! Since the word "lesbian" still does a perfectly good job of conveying relevant information to other people. Likewise if a straight dude has a fun little gay dalliance with his college roommate, but has absolutely 0 interest in men beyond that incident, it wouldn't be remotely necessary for him to start calling himself bi if he didn't want to, because what would be the point in that if he's only interested in women? Like if he told a gay dude who found him attractive that he's bi, only to backtrack... Do you see what I'm saying here?). It's perfectly valid for Dan to use "gay" and "queer" as umbrella terms that in his opinion do the best job of describing him, out of the language that's available. If he's like essentially a kinsey >5 and decided to just round it off to a 6 at this point, who are you to tell him he can't lmao

(shoutout to the legend @goldenpinof for this transcript!

Human sexuality is often way too complicated to boil it down to a single label in a way that doesn't erase any of its nuance, and I feel like this is something he's struggled with in the past, especially with him being a public figure. He's mentioned multiple times that feeling like he had to choose a label was a factor that prolonged his decision to come out.

And this is not even getting into the impact that his trauma from his childhood and also from spending a chunk of his formative years in the public eye probably had on the way he identifies or the way he chooses to label himself. It clearly took so much courage and strength for him to finally be able to call himself gay/queer please have some respect for our brave troops

Ultimately the point is that he uses the labels "gay" and "queer", not "bi", and it really shouldn't be difficult to respect that. It's also not biphobic for him to choose not use the label "bi" (again speaking as someone who uses that label). It's just that he feels "gay"/"queer" are better descriptors for him and nobody gets to determine that except him!! :) He wants people to know he's gay so he calls himself gay and that's that on that.

There are definitely people on here who are way smarter and more well-educated than me who would've done a much better job eloquently discussing this topic without rambling all over the place but that's my take (if anyone would like to add to this please do so, I'm always open to learn more about topics like this. And I'm also not saying that the way I see it is the only objectively correct opinion, but anon is definitely wrong so 💀). Thank you for coming to my ted talk

[plague-and-creatures]

People who try to define lesbian solely by the exclusion on men and men aligned people are weird and come off as kinda immature to me

And I'm not just talking about the "nmlnm" people, I'm also talking about the people that will question a lesbian's sexuality if she idolizes a male celebrity, because no lesbian could ever like a man enough to put pictures of him all over her wall unless she wasn't really a lesbian

Apparently????

It's the people who make it a point that they have a distaste for or hatred of men, and they've tied that into their sexual orientation

Then they go "can we have something that's not all about men for once?", not realizing that by using the exclusion of men to define a certain identity they still are making it all about men

And talking about bi-lesbians with people like this always comes down to what is basically "well bisexuality can include attraction to men and I don't want boy cooties on my sexuality!"

Literally grow up

[sambot2000xp]

BRING BACK THE QUEER SOLIDARITY!!!!!

LESBIANS ARE AWESOME, BI PEOPLE ARE AWESOME, NON-LABLED PEOPLE ARE AWESOME, PAN PEOPLE ARE AWESOME, IF YOU DO NOT EVEN CARE FOR CATEGORIES OR CALLING YOURSELF QUEER… YOU ARE AWESOME!!!

WE HAVE FACED TOO MUCH TO TEAR EACH OTHER APART.

OUR HISTORY IS SO BEAUTIFUL. WE MUST CONTINUE BEING BRAVE AND EXPRESSING OURSELVES.