#bi and pan and other mspec identities INCLUDING mspec gays/lesbians

[helpicant-stop]

friendly reminder that exclusionists are NOT welcome on this blog under any circumstances

[seraphic-sapphic-safehaven]

Nah fr though, don't reblog my shit if you're hateful towards any queer identity!!

If you don't like pan, ply, or omni people, fuck off.

Hate MOGAI? Get bent.

If you don't like acespecs and/or arospecs, fuck off.

Hate mspec lesbians? Leave right tf now.

If you don't like enbies, fuck off.

Hate cultural identities? Turn tf around.

If you're hateful towards any of these identities and/or lesbians, bi people, gay people, trans people, or any other part of this community, get the literal and actual fuck out of here.

WE DON'T DO EXCLUSIONARY BULLSHIT IN THIS SPACE! WE NEVER HAVE! AND WE NEVER, EVER, EVERRRR WILL!!

This is a safe space for queer people, especially the ones who get spoken over and shit on all the time, NOT hateful and bigoted people. And when I say hateful and bigoted people, I'm including queer people who feel the need to hurt and harm and harass and shit-talk other queers. Go anywhere else if you wanna be a jerk!! Hope this helps 🫶🏾🫶🏾

[historyinclusionist]

History Inclusionist

An "Inclusionist" who believes that identities which are 1) shown to be supported in the community's history 2) are harmless personal identities that don't pose harm to others are valid and should be included in their communities.

Overall:

"History Inclusionism" refers to being inclusive of personal identities based on the identity being:

A self affirmed personal identity (locatable only within a person's interaction with and relations to the world around you)

Historically shown to be included in an identity subculture (Such as in a notable number of personal accounts, poems, zines, books, or other media from a subculture)

Shown to be non harmful to other identities or persons (Such as in more than one professional study)

Examples: - Different studies over human history have concluded that being raised by gay parents doesn't cause inherent harm to children. Therefore, gay relationships are provably shown to be non harmful. They are included here. - Different self-reports, comics, zines, and other writings from the past 60 years mention male lesbians, bi lesbians, and lesbians in relationships with men. Therefore, it is historically shown to be included in lesbian culture, and is included here. - Studies, reports, and other examinations by professionals over the course of human history have come to the conclusion that minors in relationships with adults cannot properly consent and are harmed by those "relationships." Therefore, personal identities that try to justify these "relationships" are not included here.

"Personal Identity"?

"Personal Identity" is a purposefully broad term meant to apply to most self-affirmed forms of identification (plurality status, orientation, gender, etc).

Being a History Inclusionist means that you are in complete support of the following personal identities:

Plurality which does not attribute its origins to trauma

Lesbians who are also male / Gay men who are also female

Lesbians who are also mspec (bi, pan, poly, etc) / Gay men who are also mspec

Transgender / nonbinary people who don't experience dysphoria or only feel euphoria

Nonbinary genders, including xenogenders / nonbinary genders that are "atypical" (based on fictional characters, highly specific, based on animals, etc)

"Atypical" relationship formats such as polyamorous relationships, relationship anarchy, kink-focused relationships, etc (Or generally any other form of relationship between two or more consenting people that would not fall under anything on the list below this)

Gender presentations which conflict with and/or defy the expected norm (Women who use he/him pronouns, men who present feminine, etc)

Being a History Inclusionist means that you absolutely do not tolerate or support the following:

Acting on or encouraging attraction to children as an adult (Ped*philia)

Acting on, encouraging attraction to, or associating positive feelings with the attraction to one's family members (Inc*st)

Acting on or encouraging attraction to, or associating positive feelings with the attraction to animals (Z*ophilia)

TransID/TransX communities, the idea that someone can transition into or identify as an age, disorder, or condition they physically are not or do not have (transrace/diarace/trace, transabled/transdisorder/'transplural'/transautistic, and so on)

Arguing with other members of the LGBT community over who is allowed to use derogatory words (Q-eer, f-ggot, d-ke, and so on)

Tagging: @mogai-sunflowers @neopronouns @radiomogai

If you're interested in reading more about why I consider XYZ a good faith thing and why I don't consider XYZ the same, I made a Carrd! 📖🏳️‍🌈

[samble-moved]

Sayaka is Biyaka (or, a Lesbian Tries to Disprove the "Sayaka is a Lesbian With Comphet" Bi Erasure Theory)

For some reason, there's a loooot of belief in the PMMM fandom (this was especially bad in the mid 2010s) that Sayaka isn't bi (despite her canon, on screen romantic interested in both Kyosuke, a guy, and Kyoko, a girl), she's "just" a lesbian struggling with compulsive heterosexuality.

While many lesbians do struggle with comphet, erasing Sayaka's status as bi/pan/omni/mspec to claim she's a lesbian is...not great!

Usual signs of comphet include, but are not limited to:

Only attraction to guys involves ones who are entirely unobtainable (ex. a celebrity, fictional, etc)

Any man you fantasize about is faceless/nameless

Interest in men in theory, but not practice

"Choosing" a man to have a crush on to seem "normal", or because it's expected

Attraction based on logic, not actual emotion (ex. because your parents would approve)

Liking a guy until they return the interest

Being attracted to certain guys just because of something like a talent

(...and more examples here!)

However, Sayaka's attraction to Kyosuke doesn't seem based on any of these, but seems more to be genuine attraction/interest.

For one, Sayaka has been close to Kyosuke ever since she was a child. They're described and shown as childhood friends, and he isn't a guy Sayaka "just met" and "chose" to be into.

Sayaka also just isn't into Kyosuke at a surface level. If she held no true attraction towards him, why would she willingly trade her relatively safe, happy life for his happiness? Her wish was to heal his hand. While this was the stated wish, it's outright shown that Sayaka didn't just want that. It's outright shown canonically that, while not fully said, Sayaka wants Kyosuke's appreciation and recognition for this. She wants him to know the miracle was her doing, and wants him to love her for doing it.

The various interpretions of this won't be majorly touched here, as whether or not Sayaka's thinking there is "selfish" isn't important. What is important is that Sayaka shows a true level of attraction to Kyosuke, and wishes it was reciprocated.

It's not that she "just" likes him for his skills (she still visits him in the hospital, even during a time where it's implied that he won't be able to play his violin again). It's not that he's a guy out of reach — he's a childhood friend. She's not being pressured into liking guys. She literally jokes about Madoka being her wife in front of Hitomi, publicly.

Her feelings are obvious and genuine enough that Hitomi tells Sayaka that, if she wants, she will give Sayaka a day to confess to Kyosuke before Hitomi does.

A bisexual person who ends up later liking someone of the same gender later on isn't "actually gay" instead. A bisexual person with a preference isn't "choosing a side". Erasing a canon bisexual character's identity to claim "ummm, akshully, 🤓 they're Really X sexuality instead" is biphobic!

I'm probably not the best person to make this post, as I am a lesbian, not bisexual. However, people erasing a bi character's sexuality to call them a lesbian instead is not okay, and it wouldn't be okay the other way around either. It's not "progressive" to insist a bi character can't possibly be bi, they have to be gay. Sayaka shows no sign of comphet, no sign of "just" likely Kyosuke because she feels it's "right". She shows actual, real interest in him and Kyoko, and that doesn't make her "actually a lesbian". She's bisexual. A character being bi isn't some stepping stone to them being "really" gay later on, and it isn't a dirty word to call them bi! It's an identity like any other.

Most fans ignore Kyosuke. This isn't something I think is a major issue, as Sayaka seems to lose interest in him after Rebellion (saying Hitomi deserves better). He's probably not the best guy. But that's not an excuse to erase Sayaka's identity, because she liked a not-so-great dude. A lesbian with a shitty ex isn't suddenly not a lesbian, and a bisexual person with a less than stellar former crush isn't suddenly not bisexual due to it.

Tl;dr:

[broken-dollhouse]

Lesbian / Sapphic Flags I've already posted the lesbian flag in specific , this is moreso mspec lesbian identities

I will apologize for how many of these we have to post , they're slightly filler while we work on templates and other misc things! Discourse is also not allowed on this post , we will likely just block , we make these stamps for anyone who may find use in them and don't wanna deal with discourse

NOTICE : When it comes to these stamps please follow the original creators boundaries. I ask mine are followed exclusively in terms of interactions , the original creators are to be followed when it comes to use of the flags however. Should the original creator wish we remove this post we will , simply send us an ask or dm in relation.

Please feel free to send asks with flags you want to see as stamps , we're currently working through a list of more well known identities along side any flags in our likes [said list includes bi , pan , omni , ply , lesbian , gay , trans , and similar identities] , you can find all of the current flags here [link] as it's often updated before we post

Flag Creators: Bi Lesbian 1 - @/emelinet Mspec Lesbian - @/genderstarbucks Hibiscus Sapphic - @/loveletterliom Omnipan Lesbian - @/haunted-thing Rosebian - @/lesboytism Rest of the flags - @/caeliangel

Bi Lesbian | Mspec Lesbian | Hibiscus Sapphic Omnipan Lesbian | Rosebian | Bi Lesbian Omni Lesbian | Ply Lesbian | Pan Lesbian

[genderstarbucks]

hihi! so for some context I’m trying to collect terms that include attraction to women, could I get a list of some terms that fit this description? :3

Womasexual, or womansexual, is a sexual orientation describing exclusive attraction to women. This includes attraction to binary women and may also include attraction to female-aligned non-binary individuals.

Femaric is an umbrella term to describe any attraction to women or feminine-aligned individuals, and a standalone term as a non-straight identity. It was made with non-binary individuals in mind but can be used by anyone who experiences non-straight attraction to women. This includes all sapphic women as well as bisexual and pansexual men, as well as any other men who are attracted to women but are not straight.

Azalean / QLM is an orientation where one is queer, in any form, and loves women. They can also love any other genders.

Liersian / Liersic is a term for anybody who feels gay attraction to women, regardless of one's own gender.

Reilian is a term for anybody who feels straight attraction to women, regardless of one's own gender.

Lesbian is a term that defines queer attraction to women. This attraction is most commonly used as exclusively wlw/nblw attraction, as communities surrounding exclusive wlw/nblw have become the primary part of the lesbian community. However, there is no one perfect definition that encompasses all experiences of lesbianism. This term includes butch, femme, non-binary, anonbinary, cusper, and multigendered individuals.

QLW Terms:

ALW / XLW

AGLW - Agenirian

AGLW - Azalian

AGLW - Ablateric

BLW - Blank Loving Women

GVLW - Gendervoid Loving Women

KLW - Kenochoric Loving Women

MLQW

MLW - Romeric

NBLW - Trixic

QLW Omni

WLW - Sapphic

XLW - Xenirian

Carnian - NBLW / QLW

Harian - Multigender Men Loving Women

Queer MLW

Loving Women:

Femique

Hibarian - Queer Love for Women

Lilaen

Mspec Lilaen Flags

Platonic Attraction to Women

Sophian - Queer + Straight for Women

Sapphic Flags:

Mspec Sapphic

Pan Label Sapphic

Sapphic Bisexual

Sapphic Omni

Sapphisensual

Sapphoplatonic

Lesbian Flags:

Aurora Lesbian

Bi Lesbian

Dawn Lesbian

Dusk Lesbian

Flowerbed Lesbian

Moth Lesbian

Nightfall Lesbian

Trixic Flags:

Bi Trixic

Mspec Trixic

Mspec Trixic Flags

Omnitrix

Smoke Trixic - Mono Trixic

Trixic Bisexual

Vaporic - Mspec Trixic

Neptunic Flags:

Bi Neptunic

Mspec Neptunic

Omni Neptunic

Abro Flags:

Abroconsbian

Abroconswoman

Abrofem

Abrosapphic

Abro Lesbian

Abro Neptunic

Finabro

Womabro

Mono Flags:

Rosaean - Exclusive* WLW

Skyian - Mono Sophian

Mspec Flags:

Lunian

Lobelian - Mspec Lilaen

Mspec Aurora Lesbian

Mspec Lesbian Flags

Queer Mspec Lesbian

Sabrinian - Mspec Sophian

WLW/MLW/NBLW Pref - Bi Flags

WLW/MLW/NBLW Pref - Ply Flags

WLW/MLW/NBLW Pref - Pan Flags

Combo Flags:

Darcian Lesbian

Enbian Lesbian

Enbian Neptunic Lesbian

Feminamoric Lesbian

Finsexual Lesbian

Mestric Lesbian

Neptunisaph

Neptunitrix

Neptunitrixbian

Noma- Lesbian

Sapphixic

Trixenamoric

Trixen- Sapphic

Trixic Lesbian

QLW Lesbitrix Enbian

Misc:

Darcian

Faunic

Feminaesexual

Feminamoric

Femmesexual

Finsexual

Iridian

Lydian

Meadowian

Minwomasexual

Neptunic

Percafabqueer

Umbalian

Venusic

Violettian

Womquallian / Womquall

This only took 3 1/2 hours to put together but wtv 💀

[starcanwrecked-confessions]

mspec anon from a couple of days ago elaborating since you asked.

it's just some little things that probably are fine to other mspec people but are weird to me. some of it is how some people talk about mspec. like "this m/f pairing is bi4bi" but not suggesting any attraction, celebrity crush, childhood crush, whatever, they could have or could have had. makes it feel like bisexuality is treated as straight but queer bc straight is bad and queer is good. not saying that attraction = action, or that a mspec person who hasn't dated someone of the same gender is invalid, just that they do have to have or have had attraction to someone of a gender like their own. not saying m/f bi4bi is bad, i write a lot of it myself, just a pattern i sometimes notice.

on the flip side, canon bisexuality is treated as gay but with a different word. there are absolutely m/f ruth fics, but there are more f/f ruth fics. this isn't bad in itself, i love it when ruth gets the girl. and there's a woeful lack of femslash generally. this isn't me saying ruth being with one or several girls is bad, i love it. but i feel like a lot of those don't address that she is attracted to men as well.

i think certain people, when they're doing m/m or f/f relationships with characters without canon/semi-canon queer identites often make them monosexual. not everyone and not a majority. that can feel invalidating bc it feels like it's saying "you can't really be attracted to more than one gender". or sort of "you don't like the same gender as much as a fully gay person can if you also like the opposite gender". not on purpose, i'm sure, i don't think people are actually being biphobic or whatever. it just is an implication that kinda hurts.

sexuality discourse for this next part. like the rest of it hasn't been sexuality discourse.

also bi steph is weird to me. generally. most of the time. people can headcanon characters how they want, always, but i find it uncomfortable when mariah says she's pan, and has said that a couple of times, but people see her as bi because of the vibes or something. bisexuality and pansexuality aren't the same, but they are similar, and i don't think that people who view steph as bi have a real reason for differentiating those two identities other than "edgy popular girl means bi". i understand that's not where most people are coming from, and it's certainly not intentional. from my outside to them perspective, it feels like sexuality defined by personality traits and not just... who they are.

that and i really didn't like that anon about "an angel getting it's wings ripped off". i get it's fandom language, sure. but that's really evocative language to suggest. grace is a lesbian and max is gay. which is fine, excellent headcanon!! see them that way, go for it, (/gen). but it felt like behind that was they can't be queer if they're bi. i'm probably reading too much into things, and i know that, but that doesn't mean it didn't hurt. i think you can have headcanons without going that far.

again i do want to reiterate: i'm not saying people are being biphobic. i'm not saying that your headcanons or ships are invalid. all i'm saying is, as a bisexual, these little things that probably mean nothing to no one ever build up and make me uncomfortable from time to time. and i sent that anon at one of those times. i get that i'm being overly sensitive, i get that other people with different identities (including sexualities) in fandom feel ostracized for different reasons. this is just my pent up experience.

thanks for reading, i am so sorry if this launches a bunch of discourse. or brings up discourse again? i just thought you wanted an explanation so here it is.

~~~

[xoxo-ren-xoxo]

Hey, I’m new to learning a lot of queer terms on tumblr (even tho i been gay since forever). I never heard of “bi-lesbian.” Is this referring to lesbians that are interested in transmen and women (im just assuming)? No hate, just curious.✌🏾peace n luv to my fellow gays

Put simply, bi lesbian (or mspec lesbian, which is an umbrella term that includes pan, omni, etc lesbians) means anyone who uses both the terms bisexual and lesbian.

There are a number of different reasons why someone might use the term, a few of these are:

Using the historical definition of lesbian, which included bi women

Using lesbian as an umbrella term for anyone with queer attraction to women

Being attracted to women and other genders, but not binary men, and wishing to express that they aren't only into binary women

Being bisexual in terms of sexuality, but lesbian in terms of gender (lesbian can be a gender identity, and has been historically) or the other way around (bisexual can also be a gender, an older term often used instead of bigender)

Being bisexual but homoromantic, or homosexual but biromantic (ie the split attraction model)

Being bisexual but choosing to only pursue women and wanting to express that

Being genderqueer, multigender or genderfluid and feeling like the more complex label fits better to describe how your sexuality works

Most of the above also apply to pan lesbians, omni lesbians, and so on.

And there are many other reasons why someone might use the label, those are just a few off the top of my head! Mspec lesbian supporters also usually advocate for bi people to be included in lesbian spaces (as they always have been!) particularly because of our shared experiences.

We tend to believe that there are reasons why a man might call themselves a lesbian in good faith (for example, a trans man who has been part of the lesbian community pre-transition may still feel attached to the label, or a multigender person who is both a man and a woman may use the term lesbian, or a non-binary masc-leaning person may use the term man and lesbian at the same time etc.). Obviously, if a cishet guy is being creepy and trying to get into lesbian spaces, we don't think that's okay - but in my opinion it's easy to tell those people apart from people who are acting in good faith. Most mspec lesbians and lesbian men / lesboys are genderqueer in some way!

There are better sources that explore the terms and show that they've been around since at least the 1970s, but I just woke up so you'll have to forgive me for not linking them rn. If anyone wants to see those I can probably find them later!

Thanks for the ask, I hope this was helpful :)

[sevikasenby]

hii sorry what is mspc lesbian? idk if I write that right but it's your Last post.

please if you can explain I don't indurestand

honestly, please don’t worry about not understanding it, seriously don’t. it’s all complete bullshit anyways but i will still try and explain it for you the best i can.

“mspec” is basically an umbrella term for multiple different “identities”. just think of it as how gay (or sometimes queer) is used as an umbrella term for the lgbtq+ community as a whole. like we’re all gay. but we use lesbian, bi, pan, etc. to be more specific.

but said mspec “identities” include bullshit, such as “bi lesbian”, “pan lesbian”, “straight lesbian” and more 🙄

they’re all complete contradictions to what a lesbian is (which is a non man loving a non man). all these “mspec” lesbians claim that lesbians can like men and still be a lesbian, they can date men and still be a lesbian, and even that men can identify as lesbians.

hell i’ve even seen them go as far as saying this shit about gay men (not bi men who also like women, gay men who only like men, bc that seems to confuse people for some reason) but the other way around saying that they can like women. and i’ve even seen them say that lesbians can date gay men. lord help me.

and fuck me, i’ve even seen them say shit about “mspec lesbians who aren’t attracted to women”…???? would rather shove a fork up my ass than have to think about this bs for much longer. its mostly on twitter (bc of course it is 😒) but still.

i’ve seen a lot of them say that “mspec” doesn’t equal liking men. which, sure. whatever. but then what the fuck is point of putting all this shit in front of ‘lesbian’???? like lesbianism includes everyone who is a non man who like other non men??? who the fuck else are you trying to include 💀

if you like men, you can’t be a lesbian. if you are a man, you, get this, can’t be a lesbian. simple as that.

it’s just a whole thing of them saying men can be involved in lesbianism, which they. can. not. it’s literally the whole fucking point of being a lesbian. and men do not, and will never be, apart of lesbianism. lesbian is like the only fucking identity that doesn’t include men in any fucking way and people (mspec lesbians) want to shit a brick over it when we say that.

[redtail-lol]

Non-BOP Mspec Gay, Veldian, and Lesbian Flags

Okay so. Mspec. It contains many identities. Not everyone identifies with one of the BOP (Bi, Omni, Pan, Poly) identities. SO. Here are some flags for Non-BOP mspec gays. Modeled after the Multisexual flag.

General Non-BOP Mspec Gay/Stellian

For anyone who considers themselves gay and mspec, but not bi, omni, pan, or poly. Lesbians, veldians, and enbians are included

Non-BOP Mspec Lesbian/Lunian

For lunians who consider themselves mspec and lesbian but not bi, omni, pan, or poly.

Non-BOP Mspec Veldian / Turian / Vincian / Cinthean / Solian

For solians who considers themselves veldian and mspec but not bi, omni, pan, or poly.

Reasons someone may not identify with the BOP terms include:

A focus on attraction to all genders

A focus on attraction to genders like and unlike your own

Just not liking any of the terms or feeling any resonation

The subtle differences and overlap in BOP labels are confusing for you and it's easier to identify with multisexual or some other more specific label

[astral-arbour-system]

We're always going to stand up for bi lesbians and other mspec monos because we have a few in our system actually.

Will: attracted to men and women but only interested in dating men. Bisexual homoromantic if that's easier for you to understand, but he dislikes the term for himself.

Thalia: multigender, identifies as a gay woman and a bi man.

Piper: unsure if she's gay or pan and feels uncomfortable picking just one.

Apollo: omnisexual with a massive preference for men.

Ivypool: abrosappic, changes between sexualities that include attraction to women so she's sometimes a lesbian and sometimes bi.

It all makes perfect sense to us, maybe you guys just don't want it to so you can keep hating it. Identity is complicated, deal with it.

[hehimdykesrock]

Hi. I was wondering if you could elaborate a bit on your reasoning for encouraging the “Bi/Mspec Lesbian” label? I’m not a fan of the label but at least want to try to see where you’re coming from??

Bc as a lesbian who previously identified as bisexual, I honestly find the “Bi Lesbian” label invalidating to both identities. For context, I identified as Bi for quite a while bc I had been told that Lesbians don’t include nonbinary people or trans women. Which is not true!!!

Mspec sapphic people already have the terms Bi and Pan (and Queer, Sapphic, etc.)- Lesbian is the ONLY one that doesn’t include men. Adding it to the Bi label just caters to the fear of not being ‘gay enough’ that society drills into mspec sapphics. Bi women/enbys are still queer. A feminine gender preference can be described just as easily with the term Sapphic. The “Bi Lesbian” term just reinforces the harmful idea that Lesbians ‘jUsT hAvEn’T mEt ThE rIgHt GuY yEt’.

A personal anecdote: in the past few years, I have begun to actively avoid telling men I’m not close to that I’m a Lesbian. Because they frequently want to take it as a challenge. To “convert” me. The “mspec lesbian” idea actively puts Lesbians in danger by just repackaging conservative ideologies under the veil of being *progressive*. (Invalidating the validity of sapphic identities/relationships, and that ‘ALL women are attracted to men/can be converted’. I have also seen mspec lesbians say Lesbians are terfs as a justification for the new label- while the justifications themselves sound transphobic??? The jist of it usually is- ‘Lesbians are transphobic. The identity is defined by not being attracted to men- So why can they like trans women but can’t like binary trans men! Even though I totally believe that trans women are women and trans men are men!!!’)

Sorry this is long and repetitive. I wanted to try to put as much of my reasoning as I could. While I can empathize with why the bi lesbian label was created (bc I identified as Bi for a very long time + thus became heavily aware of biphobia within the LGBTQIA+ community. Even from Lesbians.)- it ultimately implies that Bisexuality isn’t considered “gay enough” and unintentionally perpetuates the idea that Lesbians can be converted into liking men.

My first thought is this sounds like some radfem Gold Star Lesbian bullshit lol. And yeah this is super long and repetitive, so I'm not gonna worry too much about the quality/conciseness of my response. Guess ill try to just take it peice by piece. I usually don't entertain shit like this but I'm bored today so let's try it.

Why do you find someone else having a different experince than you invalidating? Have you considered that this may be a personal insecurity more so than the responsibility of the people who's identities you're uncomfortable with?

The bisexual label has bever been exclusive of trans/nonbinary people, and the misconception that it is is itself transphobia in action. You say you changed your mind about that label after learning that it isn't exclusive of trans people, congratulations. That doesn't mean that everyone else using the bisexual label just hasn't come to that conclusion yet.

Lesbian has historically included bisexuals and etc. It's never been exclusive, but there have always been exclusive people in every queer community.

Do you think there is any true distinction between bisexual history and gay/lesbian history? Why can't we share words? Why are we all obsessed with being unique? Why does it matter so much if we overlap? Isn't that the point of community? To share and to be different and have overlap, to take joy in each other's experiences? Why are you so intent on defining exactly who can be what? Is the point of queerness not to acknowledge our inate and complex humanity, to say "I am unquauntifiable"? It is to me. But maybe that's philosophical, in which case my practical down-to-earth questions are: who gets to make the rules about who gets to be what, who is going to enforce these rules, and what tool of violence are you granting them to do so? Is it you? Is it the government? Is it an organized elected council of queer elders? Are the freaks who don't follow the rules exiled, shunned, imprisoned?

As for these other words we "already have" like sapphic, have you considered that we "already have" lesbian? Lesbian has historically been a word for women(etc) who are attracted to women(etc). Why did we need to make new words to separate each other? Why did we need sapphic when we already had lesbian? I don't feel that making and using new words is wrong and I support anyone who wants to use these labels, I'm just demonstrating that the logic behind that point of yours is identical when flipped. Lesbian has always been here for people like me, it was the only word we had for a long while, so who are you to rewrite its history?

Your personal experience of queerness is not universal. Words mean slightly different things to everyone, that's how languages and humans work. And that's a good thing. That's the point of all this!

The kind of people who harass and assault lesbians don't care about this shit. Are you seriously trying to blame a whole group of queers for ... queers being harassed and assaulted? The straight cis guys who are chasing and trying to "convert" lesbians already don't think of women and lesbians as people. They're not gonna sit there and debate the finer points of someone's identity before they decide if they want to assault them.

The bigots don't care about our labels. They don't even respect whether someone is actually queer or is just someone they perceive as queer. Outside online discourse like this, a faggot is a faggot is a faggot.

I do not have any patience for anyone who believes certain types of queers make the rest of us look bad. Like seriously why are we still doing this? Also you personally right now with this ask have just repackaged dangerous conservative ideologies under the veil of being *progressive*! This is some seriously puritan stuff you've said here! You say it yourself that you have been a victim of being sexually pursued against your will and that you take certain precautions in life to prevent that from happening, and then you turn right around and blame a whole demographic of people *with that exact experience* for bringing that experience onto themselves *and onto you*! What!

Literally nobody is saying all women have the ability to be attracted to men. I have literally never seen or said that apart from this very ask right here. I guess it could happen, someone could be saying that somewhere, but in that situation I'm gonna call them a misogynistic ass and consider them to not be speaking for all lesbians everywhere. And I don't think it's too much to ask that others use the same level of critical thinking skills in that situation.

And as for the people you have seen saying "all lesbians are terfs" those people are lesbophobic. Those are lesbophobes. I don't know what else you want me to say about that, I don't really see how some people being lesbophobic should impact whether or not a whole bunch of other people are morally correct (?) in using the word lesbian.

Ask rating:

4/10 for nonsense and contradiction

[mysimsyuri]

hi! could you inform me on what a bi lesbian is? don’t mean to come off as rude and you’re not obligated to explain if you want to, but if you could redirect me to some resourced pls do, i’m curious and have seen this term one or two times before! i tried looking but almost everything ive seen either has a confusing definition or is negative, and i’d like to educate myself if possible. ty! :D

hi, tysm for the ask! while im definitely not the guy to speak for all mspec lesbians, i can definitely try my best to help you :]

mspec lesbians are when a person identifies as a lesbian while simultaneously being attracted to other genders, hence the "multi spectrum" (mspec) part of the term. i myself am a bi lesbian, so im just going to use that as an example, but there are also pan lesbians, omni lesbians, it goes on. (there are also mspec gays, but people dont seem too pressed about them, and im not gay, so i wont speak on them.)

there are a lot of reasons someone could identify as a bi lesbian, like if theyre romantically a lesbian while being bi*sexual*, or a bi person with a preference towards women. personally, while i do think lesbianism inherently includes nonbinary people (speaking *as* a nonbinary lesbian), my attraction to nbs is separate enough to warrant the label for both mine and other nbs' comfort. (also i think some guys are attractive lol). but it does vary from person to person!

as for the history, bi people using lesbian as an umbrella term (much like, for example, a bi guy calling themself gay) since *at least* the 70s.

and as for resources, heres a really helpful carrd i found, as well as just going through the 'mspec lesbian' tag on tumblr has quite a few good posts about the historical usage of the label!

also um. sorry for giving you an entire essay (hyperbole) lol, queer identities and history are a pretty big interest of mine XP

[genderstarbucks]

So sick of finding the coolest blogs but then finding out they're anti mspec gays/lesbians/straights and anti lesboys/turigirls

It's even worse if they're anti-pan/ply/omni too

Like why do people care about other people's identities so much?

No one else's identity affects you, you're just insecure about your own identity

Someone identifying as a bi-lesbian or lesboy is not making the lesbian community look bad nor is it affecting someone else's identity as a lesbian

You cannot say you want biromantic homosexual, homoromantic bisexual, abrosexual, etc. rights and then be anti mspec gays/lesbians/straights

You are a hypocrite, the SAM and abrosexuality are the most common reasons why someone would be mspec gay/lesbian/straight

My identity cannot be explained by just the word "bisexual" and my identity cannot be explained by just the word "gay man" they're intertwined

I'm a homoromantic bisexual but I'm also abrosexual, and you're anti mspec monos? You're stupid

You cannot say you want trans and GNC rights and then be anti lesboys and turigirls

So many lesboys and turigirls identify like this because they're GNC, trans and still connected to the lesbian/gay man label, being cusper between a butch lesbian and a trans man, being cusper between a femme gay man and a trans woman and so many other reasons

Exclusionists are hypocrites

You cannot advocate for queer rights but only if you deem them queer enough or a "good" queer

If you advocate for queer rights, this inclues ALL queer people

Mspec monos, gaybians, lesboys, turigirls, amab transmascs, afab transfems and any other identity that you deem "contradictory" are included in queer rights

[bramblepurr]

ghoul identity hcs bc i am. a genius. and i see into all the dimensions and i understand. i didn’t include xenogenders or specific neopronouns bc we’d be here all week but believe me they r there!!

aether: he/him but also is OBSESSED with neopronouns he loves them so so so so so much. he likes when the other ghouls/copia use random neos for him n he gets to go OUGH!!!!!! and look them up Immediately. they just make him v happy. he’s a gay acespec trans man :)) no surgeries but he’s a bear babey that man is FUZZY!! and has TITS!!!!! the kinda size where if he wanted them to be gone he can bind n it just looks like he has the most epic man tits ever but also they r a grabable and holdable size.. swiss is his bra <333 also with ghoul magic if he wants them Gone Gone for the day he can just do that. as a treat. but part of him likes binding??? autism or whatever

dew/sodo/umm i also like the name ember for him: gay arospec transmasc. his gender presentation is uh gross possum. he smells of boy y’know. he/it but also not opposed to they but also he can be she babygirl in the bedroom sometimes. as a treat for being so polite. but he is a MAN!!! MAN MAN MAN!!! MALE!!!!!!!! he’s a gross man and he likes it that way!!!!!!!!!!!!!

rain: baby angel he/they/she but also loves neos a lot also. sometimes at like 4am she will be on his pronoun-hoarding bs and will send aether a million pronouns to look at. transfem genderfluid!! but also a man. like she’s a boy? but he’s a girl. you understand. also acespec. and he is bi.

swiss: fucked up animal. stereotypical slut mspec. he/they trans man and would be the one of the group to ‘fully’ physically transition if that was a thing ghouls needed to do. i think ghouls have mostly magical transitions but sometimes they will decide to switch things out or to have scars as a treat. it adds to the presentation or whateva.

mountain: just a fuckin guy. he/they/it but also doesn’t care. no gender label king he’s just amab and does what he wants. aroace legend but that’s mostly just on paper this man truly is just. whatever. whatever happens happens y’know. has some sort of thing with swiss and rain but they don’t rlly label it but like. they kiss

cirrus: BUTCH!!!!!!!! he/she but is open to the other ghouls n copia using other pronouns if they want as a treat for fun. prefers he though. his gender identity is Butch. he’s a lesbian. i also flip-flop between transfem butch or transmasc butch with him so uhh. ig he does too!! ghouls!!!!!!

cumulus: trans LADY. she is a lady. she/her but likes when sunshine and/or rain hand her neopronouns like a cat catching a mouse. she’s a lesbian but also goes with the flow y’know. labels aren’t strict for her all she knows is be pretty kiss gfs

sunshine: transfem they/she/it and also a pronoun-hoarder. she is Crazey. she doesn’t rlly label her sexuality bc she is so no thoughts abt it but if u were to force her or bribe her she’d gravitate towards pan and maybe aspec but only sometimes aspec (sunshine u stupid idiot.. that’s what the spec means. spectrum. fluid. babe..) idk she just has NO IDEA!! and she is okay with it :)) they’re just out here

as a treat!!! copia: gay acespec trans man. he’s on t n has had top surgery but has put off bottom bc he flip-flops between wanting it and not caring all the time and he’s just Scared y’know. most of the time he’s just not thinking abt it and thinks pussy is quite convenient bc it’s just. not rlly there y’know. but if he thinks abt it for more than five seconds it becomes a whole thing and aether has to lay on him and purr until he stops thinking or he will just totally break down. oh also he/him but likes neopronouns like aether but more as like a fun little thing rather than any real significance y’know.

[mothwithapencil]

What's your issue with with mspec folks? Not trying to be mean or anything, I just barely understand what mspec means myself. And to me it's one of those things where I'm like Well people are allowed to have identities I don't understand.

No hate, I'm just trying to understand if this is a thing I should be advocating against or something.

Im not too interested in discourse around this, and people are of course allowed to identify however they want. Being mspec (meaning multisexual spectrum, like bi, pan, omni, etc) is fine. I disagree with combining that with labels like lesbian, not because the experience itself is invalid, but the wording and thought process is problematic. Here's my two cents, coming from a nonbinary lesbian. More under the cut because its a complex topic with a lot of angles

Using a label like "bi lesbian" as an example, heres some of the arguments I've seen for and against it:

1. "I'm attracted to women and nonbinary people, so I must be a a bisexual lesbian" → lesbianism includes anyone that isn't a man and isn't attracted to men, so that definition isn't really necessary

2. "I'm a bisexual woman attracted to everyone, but i have a strong preference for women, so that also makes me a lesbian" → having a lean towards a certain gender doesn't make you less bisexual, so its unnecessary again

3. "Im a biromantic homosexual enby, so im a bi lesbian" → this just comes down to lesbianism = not being a guy and not being into guys. Your identity is fine, but lesbian wouldn't really be the best or most fitting label

4. "My gender and sexuality is fluid and bisexual lesbian fits me best" → I don't know you or your experience. I do know that a label like "lesbian" isn't completely fluid and there may be better, more technically fitting labels. But you do you, I'm not here to tell you how to identify, its just a matter of labels I disagree with.

5. "I'm a bisexual lesbian because i like cis AND trans women!" → Oh man.

Furthermore, you'll see mspec people and lesbians/gays say the label is harmful because:

1. It implies that lesbians can be attracted to men (harmful because men have tried to push themselves in lesbian spaces for forever, or try to change their minds, and a bunch of other nasty shit. Lesbians just aren't attracted to men. Not every label is fluid), and the other way around for gay mlm/nblm

2. It indirectly pushes mspec people into a binary. "You're a bi woman with a fem preference, youre actually a lesbian. Youre a pan guy with a male lean, you're actually just gay" kind of stuff.

Again, anyone can identify how they want. I just disagree with the choice of labels. Im not going to police anyone about it. Everyone is going to have a slightly different definition, everyone's going to have different viewpoints. I have my viewpoints and i curate my online experience around it. There's many more talking points around this but this us just the main things i can bring up while typing this at 2am