#battle for the cowl 2009

[bitterrobin]

query for the Dick Grayson fans:

If Dick didn't have to be Batman or take care of Damian during the 2009/2010 era - what do you think he would've done instead?

I personally lean towards staying in New York, as I know that's where he was living since Bludhaven got nuked. But I don't know anything else more specific since I'm not super versed in Nightwing comics before that particular era. Obviously the Titans would come back into play.......

--

Some context for the question:

I'm currently writing a frighteningly expansive au where BfTC changes pretty drastically, thus shifting later comics a good bit. TLDR is Cass becomes Batman so Dick doesn't have to, and Bette Kane is the one who takes care of Damian until Bruce returns from his time travel shenanigans. Jason goes through a real Greek tragedy ordeal dealing with his life post-UtRH and post-Bruce's death. Tim's storyline throughout the 2009 era stays the same, he just actually communicates with people just a teeny-tiny bit more. Steph also becomes Batgirl like in canon, but I just don't like a lot of the writing in her Batgirl run - so I'm currently trying to reconcile that with what I think would be a lil better. The au has a very large Bette Kane focus too, as a what-if to Bette being incorporated to the larger dynamics of the "Batfam".

[shyjusticewarrior]

Selina Kyle is the most forgiving person ever. Ivy mind controlled her multiple times, Harley shot her, Jason pushed her off a roof.

[fancyfade]

You missed by Fade31415

First panel is by Tony Daniel and from battle for the cowl, the rest is my art.

There is nothing that can convince me this wouldn't have happened if Damian held onto consciousness a little bit longer, he loves antagonizing people.

The image appears as if it's posted twice because I had no clue which would be more convenient for reading, one row by one row, or all at once. probably depends if you're on desktop or mobile

[necrotic-nephilim]

for the ask game, an AU where (somehow…) jason and tim (begrudgingly) team up in the search for a hero/battle for the cowl era (either when jason says tim should work with him on the gang stuff or when batman jason asks tim to be his robin) :]

for the ask game!

god, Search For A Hero my beloved. for the Search For A Hero version of their team-up, I think I'd write it something like this

I think the biggest reason Tim says no when Jason asks him is Jason asks Tim too early in the arc. as the storyline develops, Tim gets more and more desperate to best Ulysses, which is what pushes him to make the mistake that gets Ulysses' siblings killed. he's in a tight spot and he misjudges the situation. (i think the guilt he carries from that moment is one of the biggest inciting incidents for becoming Red Robin) so, i'd introduce Jason to the plot just a little later. just as Tim is on the edge of desperation. Tim isn't entirely adverse to working with villains if he thinks he can stay on top of them. so instead of sending Jason to prison, i think if Jason came to Tim at the right time, Tim would begrudging accept Jason's help

part of Tim's plan would be leveraging Jason's power with the mafia/mob scene in Gotham. they'd agree that topping the gangs would just cause a power vacuum (i'm pretty sure that's actually addressed in SFAH but i could be misremembering) so it's more about a balancing act, which is where Jason thrives. Tim is right on the cusp of being willing to do more morally questionable things, so it'd be a fun internal war for him to second-guess himself at every turn.

there would be such a delightful lack of trust in their partnerships. TIm has *zero* reason to trust Jason, and while Jason likes Tim enough, i don't think he's naive enough to put any trust in Tim. so there'd be moments where they don't fill each other in on aspects of the plan. Jason kills people behind Tim's back, Tim keys in his cop friend behind Jason's back. it builds the tension between them with a lot of hot arguments that get more and more charged.

the jealousy. there would just have to be a scene where Jason gets wildly jealous over Ulysses' complex over Tim. Ulysses tries so hard to pit himself as like, Tim's biggest adversary, his opposite. and Jason would *despise* that. sure, Jason is working with Tim, but part of the fun is that they're still enemies as they do it. i think it'd be sort of fun to have the moment where Ulysses blows Tim up be something Jason witnesses and he raises unholy hell about. because if anyone is going to kill Tim Drake, it's going to be him. and that angry possessiveness is what makes the romantic/sexual tension something neither of them can ignore anymore.

Tim deciding to put on the Red Robin suit to fight Ulysses would be where Jason just. goes full tilt possessive "he's mine i marked him that's my suit. see. mine. i said so." and Tim would push back but. what ground does he have to stand on bc he could've picked any suit with any cowl to protect his head after the blast, but he did choose Jason's. it was his own open invitation to Jason in a way. and well. they fuck nasty about it. and then Damian becomes Robin, so why not Tim keep the suit and just maybe, keep Jason in his back pocket.

and!! for the Battle for the Cowl version. man on one hand i love "Tim accepts Jason's offer to be his Robin" fics but i feel they lack a bite to them, so this is personally how i would try to pull it off, while being relatively in character.

so the biggest thing for me is, TIm agrees to be Jason's Robin not because he trusts or likes Jason, but for the same reasons he became Robin in the first place: to keep Batman stable. being Jason's Robin isn't about wanting to work with Jason, it would be Tim knowing there's no world Jason is ever going to stop and seeing Jason slowly tip over the edge of madness and well. if Tim was self-sacrificial enough to do it for Bruce and attempt to do it for Jean-Paul, he can do it for Jason.

him agreeing would i think startle Jason. like, Jason's offer was never particularly serious because he's at the point he knows Tim wants nothing to do with him. so when Tim says yes it sort of. snaps Jason out of the rage BftC puts him in. he's so startled but enticed by the thought, he willingly agrees to stipulations Tim sets, like no murder. like even if just to see where this goes, Jason jumps on the chance.

i'd really want to keep Dick and Damian as Batman and Robin, and the weird divide that would exist with Dick/Damian and Jason/Tim both running around as Batman/Robin and how off kilter that puts Gotham. like Gotham is so baffled by it, it actually makes criminals easier to handle. because they have no clue if they're getting the Batman who needs Robin to keep him in line, or the Robin who needs Batman to keep him in line. people know there's two Batmans, two Robins and no one knows quite what to do with that information. who's the "real" Batman? who's the "real" Robin? and on the personal level, the divide between Dick and Tim would be unmistakable. Dick would know what Tim's doing and try to convince him Jason is a lost cause bc well, Dick at this point *really* believes Jason is a lost fucking cause. So Dick's genuine care and concern for Tim just drives a further wedge between them.

i think there'd need to be a scene where Tim flat out asks if Jason even *wants* to be Batman. in a sort of attempt to slowly ween Jason off of being Batman, but also because i don't think Jason ever really wants to be Batman, he just wants Batman to be what his vision of justice is. and it'd be the first real heart to heart they have, discussing the legacy of the Robin and Batman mantles and how it's affected them. it'd be heated, but it'd be their first real conversation as just. Jason and Tim.

to me, i think the end goal of this AU would be Tim successfully "taming" Jason, and not in like a soft way, but in like a manipulative way, where even Jason knows that's what Tim is doing, but he just goes along with it because it's the first real human connection he's had in a while. also, i would work in Scarlet, Jason's sidekick in Batman & Robin (2009) as like. a pseudo daughter figure for them to help Jason find his humanity a bit. so it's not just Tim as Jason's rock, but also this misguided girl they'd both try to help. and well, then they ride into the sunset and all that, but still have a complicated, toxic dynamic they're both aware is unhealthy, but as balanced as it can be.

[sliipppy]

Being a huge fan of 2009 era of batman comics but also a huge cassandra cain fan. it's hard out here.

[vertigoartgore]

2009's Batman and Robin Vol.1 #1 cover by Frank Quitely and Alex Sinclair (original pencils, sketch variant, 1st printing & 2nd printing).

[goatsghost]

batman & robin 2009 // dceased: hope at world’s end

okay so we have dick and damian to be replacement batmen when no one else could

batman: battle for the cowl // super sons #11

gun batman and gun batman 2.0 jason and tim

robin war

and then jim gordon as cop batman……. for some reason

batman (2016) #5

i think i’m gonna start a compilation of as many people wearing the batman costume as possible, bc i feel like it’s a pretty large number

[petrerpkr]

Jason todd reading order

For more info here /& /here

Batman #357-#399 (1983-1986)

Batman #402-416(1986)

Detective Comics #524-#567 (1983-1986)

Detective Comics #568-#582(1986)

Nightwing Vol. 2 #101 -106(2005)

Batman #424-429(1988)(Batman: A Death in the Family)

Batman: A Lonely Place of Dying (1989)

Red Hood: Lost Days (2010)

Batman: Under the Red Hood Batman #635-641, #645-50, & Batman Annual #25(2005)

Green Arrow Vol. 3 #69-72(2007)

Nightwing Vol. 2 #118-122(2006)

Batman RIP(2008)

Robin (Vol.2) #175-183(2008)

Batman: Battle for the Cowl(2009)

Batman and Robin #1-6 + 23-25(2009)

Red Hood and the Outlaws vol 1 #0-20(2011)

Batman Incorporated #0-6(2012)

Batman Incorporated #7-13 + Batman Incorporated Special #1(2013)

Death of the Family(2013)

Red Hood and the Outlaws Annual #1 (2013)

Batman and Robin (Vol. 2) #20(2013)

Red Hood and the Outlaws #21-40(2013) + Red Hood and the Outlaws Annual #2(2014)

Red Hood/Arsenal (2015)

Batman and Robin Eternal(2015)

Batman and Robin #33–37 (2014 – 2015)

Batman Eternal(2015)

Robin war

Red Hood and the Outlaws: Rebirth #1 (2016)

Red Hood and the Outlaws Vol. 2 #1-13 (2016)

Red Hood and the Outlaws Vol. 2 Annual #1 (2017)

Red Hood and the Outlaws Vol. 2 #14-25

Red Hood and the Outlaws Vol. 2 Annual #2(2018)

Red Hood and the Outlaws Vol. 2 #26(2018)

Red Hood: Outlaw #27-36 (2018)+Red Hood: Outlaw Annual 3(2019)

Event Leviathan(2019)

Red Hood: Outlaw #37-52(2019)

Joker War(2020)

Batman: Urban Legends #1-6 (2021)

Robin #5(2021)

Nightwing Annual (2021)

Task Force Z #1-12(2021)

The Joker : The Man Who Stopped Laughing 1-6 (2022)

Batman – Legends of Gotham (2023)

Lazarus Planet: Next Evolution (2023)

Knight Terrors: Robin (2023)

Red Hood – The Hill(2024)

[hood-ex]

Hello! I’m a bit of a lurker, but I had a question for a friend and I’m not sure if you’re able to answer, but you were the first to come to mind.

As someone who is not too familiar with the DC comics, what would be issues, volumes, etc. to read for a newbie wanting to delve into and highlight Dick & Damian’s relationship? My friend knows about their general stories (ie been watching the DCAMU and DCAU) but want to read more from their comic sources.

I’ve not been able to help them, but if you know of good recommendations (since I know you’re invested in Dick Grayson’s story very well) or can point me to others who’d be able to help, I’d appreciate it!

(I know comics are very convoluted with timelines and reboots and writers, but any recs would be great! Thanks and have a great day/night!)

Sorry this took me forever, but I've finally gathered the majority of Dick and Damian content. Please note that some stuff listed may be entire stories involving Dick and Damian, some may just have a few scenes between them, and some may even just have one scene that I felt highlighted their relationship in some way. I'm the type of person who's a freak about every Dick and Damian interaction though, so even the smallest of things can feel important to me personally lmao.

There are ofc more Dick and Damian interactions than this, I just didn't add them because I either felt they weren't necessary to share or that some of the writing was too bleh.

Also, I did have a guide to help me catch the dickbats era moments, but everything after dickbats came directly from my brain, so there's certainly a possibility I missed something, but I did try my best to remember the most important interactions.

Anywho, hope this is somewhat helpful!

Post-Crisis Era

Nightwing Vol. 2 #138 (Dick's first time meeting Damian)

Batman: Battle for the Cowl

Batman #687

Red Robin #1 (there are multiple other Dick and Damian interactions in Red Robin such as #13-15... check them out if you want. I'm adding #1 because Dick claims Damian as his responsibility)

Batman and Robin (from 2009) #1-26

Batman #688

Batman: Streets of Gotham

Batman Annual #27 continued in Detective Comics Annual #11

Batgirl (Vol. 3) #5-7

Batman #700 is a bit… difficult. It’s an anniversary issue that goes into the legacy of Batman and Robin. It jumps from past, present, and future. It includes a possible future of Damian becoming Batman. So. It’s not a necessary read, but I do like Dick and Damian’s scenes in it. Just tell your friend to read the “Today” section of the comic.

Blackest Night: Batman #1-3 (These are tie-in issues of a larger event called Blackest Night. Read Blackest Night and other tie-ins related to it if you need more context)

Batman #695-697

DCU Halloween Special 2010

Superman/Batman #77

Batman #703

Bruce Wayne: The Road Home - Batman and Robin

Batman: The Return

Batman #704-706

Teen Titans (Vol. 3) #89 and #92

Batman: Gates of Gotham

N52

Batman and Robin (Vol. 2) #10-12 for context + some Dick and Damian interactions. Moment between Dick and Damian at the end of #12 is the real reason I’m adding this.

Will need to read comics collected under the “Death of the Family” event to understand the full context. For Nightwing specifically, read Nightwing (Vol. 3) #15-16. Read #17 for the actual Dick and Damian interaction.

Will need to read Batman Incorporated (Vol. 2) for context. Dick and Damian interaction/Damian’s death in Batman Incorporated #8-9.

Nightwing (Vol. 3) #18 is Dick grieving Damian’s death.

Batman and Robin (Vol. 2) Annual #2

Robin: Son of Batman #1

Batman and Robin (Vol. 2) #33-37 for context, but the Dick moment I want to showcase is in #34. “You know how much Damian meant to me, Bruce…” (literally don’t read the rest unless you want to, that #34 moment is truly the only reason I’m adding this, and it's just Bruce and Dick talking about Damian btw, not an actual Dick and Damian moment)

Grayson #12 is an absolute must, it has one of the most iconic Dick and Damian interactions of all time. Will need to read the comics Forever Evil, Nightwing (Vol. 3) #30, and previous Grayson issues to understand the full context of the issue. Can just visit the issue for the Dick and Damian scene though obviously.

Rebirth and Beyond Era

Rebirth Nightwing #1 (note: this is a completely different comic from Nightwing (Vol. 4) #1-33, which is referred to as the Rebirth era of Nightwing). If you want to understand further context about this comic, you’ll have to read We Are Robin and the Robin War crossover event.

Nightwing (Vol. 4) #1, #4, #16-20 (very important Dick and Damian arc where Dick admits he wanted to adopt Damian), #29 (for context you’ll have to read the rest of Dark Nights Metal), #42-43 (each issue is a one-shot), Annual #2 (there’s enough info in this story to not need previous context), #110 (for context read the Beast World crossover event), #113 (they interact briefly, but I’m more so adding this because it shows Damian supporting Dick), #114.

Batman (Vol. 3) #16 (because Dick buys Damian a kid’s meal), #33-35

Detective Comics #1000 (collection of one-shots… go down to the story called “Batman’s Greatest Case” by Tom King. I suggest only looking at the very first Dick and Damian interaction from this story… the rest of the dialogue is… bad)

Robin (Vol. 3) #5 (further context can be found in Batman (Vol. 3) #77… and even further context for that storyline can be found starting in #75 as well as Detective Comics #1031-1033)

Batman: Urban Legends “The Murder Club” (story starts in #20 but Dick and Damian scenes are #21-23)

The Boy Wonder #1

[jayladfanpage]

JASON TODD MUST-READ COMIC GUIDE :]

ROBIN

Batman (1940) #408-411, #416

Detective Comics (1937) #569-574, #580 & #581

Superman (1939) Annual #11

New Teen Titans (1985) #20, #21

Batman: The Cult (1988)

Batman (1940) #422, #424, #425

Batman: A Death in The Family

Batman: Gotham Knights (2000) #43-45

RED HOOD

Under The Red Hood & Red Hood: Lost Days (I recommend reading Lost Days first, but it's up to you)

Nightwing (1996) #118-122

Green Arrow (2001) #69-72

Batman: Battle for the Cowl & Battle for the Cowl: The Underground (2009)

Task Force Z (2021)

Joker: The Man Who Stopped Laughing (2023)

[jaydick-week]

do you guys have any recs for jaydick comics in canon? or any comics that have them interacting a lot really haha ;-;

Heck yes!

Some good ones with lots of J/D interaction are:

Brothers in Blood (Nightwing vol. 2 #118-#124)

Batman: Battle for the Cowl (2009)

RHATO Annual #1 (2016)

Nightwing: Year One (Nightwing #101-106, ft. Robin Jason)

Nightwing Annual 2021

Batman Vol. 1 #416 (First Meeting)

Batman and Robin Eternal #1

Grayson Vol. 1 #12

Robins (Volume 1)

Batman and Robin Vol. 1 (#4-6)

There is some interaction in Under the Hood but not too much.

Not comics, but some other forms of media are:

Wayne Family Adventures (webcomic)

Batman Ninja (animated film)

Gotham Knights (videogame)

Batman: Gotham By Gaslight (animated film)

Lego Batman: Family Matters (animated film)

Dynamic Duo (upcoming animated film)

[bitterrobin]

question for the people that have read Battle for The Cowl: The Network or are fans of Charlie Gage-Radcliffe: does this little foreshadow/storyline thing with Charlie ever get explained?

When I first read this, I was pretty confused. The Network takes place after Birds of Prey #116 and #118. So uh....what's Rory talking about?

Or am I just stupid and the panels are just implying that Charlie's just overusing her powers, which is exhausting her?

[butchgrayson]

DICK GRAYSON & JASON TODD + THE LYNCH BROTHERS. PART I

Greywaren by Maggie Stiefvater / Nightwing (1996) / The Raven Boys by Maggie Stiefvater / Battle for the Cowl (2009) / The Raven Boys / Nightwing (1996) / Greywaren / Outsiders (2003) / Greywaren / The New Teen Titans (1984) / Greywaren / Nightwing: Secret Files (1999)

[fancyfade]

Do you know if you’ve ever done a post that dismantles the misconception that Dick “stole” Robin away from Tim to give it to Damian? I’ve seen posts debunking a lot of stuff on your poll but i have a hard time trying to find ones that succinctly tear that one apart lol

I've got you

Damian's intro to being Robin is told 2 ways, one in pre new 52 continuity, in battle for the cowl, and the other in post new 52 continuity, in secret origins 4.

in battle for the cowl, Damian starts in his black and white league of shadows uniform. Then, he's shot by Batman!Jason and Dick has some "i'm responsible for this child" moment, but does not make him Robin. We see Damian pretty much right after he regains consciousness:

Alfred tells him to earn his keep and gives him the Robin outfit, and next thing we see he's Robin

That's Battle for the Cowl, the pre-new 52 story (and also aside: first thing Damian does as Robin, what Alfred is setting him up to do, is to save Tim's life with squire (link))

Secret Origins 4 is for the broader part my favorite (I do like Damian saving Tim's life in Battle for the cowl tho), and I think it's way mroe focused on Damian's character.

We start, we see he's trying to establish a connection to his father

and he's clearly resentful about not having a connection to his dad

Alfred's worried Damian's going too far

So Alfred has Dick bring Damian back to the Batcave and says he found something

Dick is clearly in on it in that he knows it is going on, but it is framed as Alfred's idea, with him forging the letter, him being the one reaching out to Damian and worried he's going too far and contacting Dick (and dick saying he doesn't know much about Damian beforehand in this comic and Alfred explains), and Alfred being the one who seemed to have made the suit, since Dick said he liked it and alfred says dialogue implying it was his design decision (never wise to stray too far from perfection")

anyway the implication is that Alfred made Damian Robin to try to give him a connection to his father, because Damian was inconsolable (but... in the assassin way not the crying way :P)

even in Red Robin #1, which I assume most people (who read comics :P) are referencing for Dick 'giving' Damian Robin, all Tim says is how can you let Dick w

So it might be reasonable for the reader to assume here that Dick made Damian Robin.. but since he didn't, Tim is just asking how he can let him wear it. I have a post fully breaking down this scene here (link)

[thelionandtheeagle]

On the misconception of Jason attempting to take Tim's life at Titans Tower:

I've seen people be confused about this one, so I figured I'd provide some context/ analysis/ what have you, for anybody who might be interested.

Now, the incident we're talking about occurred in issue 29 of the 2003 Teen Titans book.

There is a lot that could be said about the whole issue, but in the interest of not having this post run on forever, let's just focus on the end to the actual physical altercation between Jason and Tim:

Jason warns Tim of the dangers associated with being Robin. He uses himself as a cautionary tale, making it clear that this isn't about envy; that Jason has no interest in being Robin again himself. That that's not what this is about.

Then he knocks Tim out.

Tim is unconscious for a while and Jason uses this opportunity to very dramatically put the word out there that, yep, he is indeed the real Jason Todd and he's ready to cause trouble.

When Tim comes to again, he is injured, yes, but okay overall. He isn't bleeding out on the floor, close to death. In fact, he's very much able to just sit up and have a normal conversation with people. All in all Tim is fine, and Jason has left.

And, well, that's that. At least from Tim's perspective.

The issue actually concludes with a really interesting page featuring Jason's narration:

Here we see Jason easily concede that Tim is good. No malice, no hate, no ill wishes towards him. And Tim is doing fine. Jason is shown to be in no way surprised that Tim is alive and well, back out in the field. Because he was never out to seriously injure Tim, let alone kill him.

Jason didn't want to take Tim's life at all. He had ample opportunity to do so, but he didn't. One of the reasons the whole confrontation went down the way it did, is because Jason was genuinely excited to meet Tim (see the intro narration of the issue). Aside from delivering the warning discussed above, Jason wanted to see for himself what Tim is capable of, what makes him tick. And he has no problem admitting that Tim is indeed good at what he does.

It's obviously an important incident in their lives, but Tim was never in any real danger here. Getting into brawls is nothing crazy at all in their line of work, and Tim has canonically acknowledged that he holds no ill will towards Jason over the whole thing, e.g. here in issue 8 of the 2011 Red Hood and the Outlaws book:

Summary/ conclusion: Does Jason feel guilty about things he's done to Tim in the past? Yes. Does Tim hold it against him? No. Was their fight at Titans Tower a murder attempt? Not at all.

Thanks for reading! I hope this helps clear some things up for anybody wondering (:

Bonus: Jason talking about Tim in Battle for the Cowl (2009) #2

[selinakylesupremacy]

Selina comes to Tim's aid

Batman: Battle for the Cowl #2 (2009)