#at least we know bloodraven did

[thehauntingofharrenhouse]

I'm so upset that in theory robb stark could have logged on to the weirwood network and watched daemon stumble around harrenhal committing flop after flop. one of the top ten funniest people to witness this for sure

[baleriontheblackkitten]

Something I find intriguing about the books is how, the more you advance through the story, the more Targeryen there are in one way or another. You start with this picture of a realm that has gone through a regime change years ago, all the royal family killed except for two kids in exile, half a world away, with no remaining connections to the land their family used to rule. And the land the Targaryen used to rule seemingly has no more connections to the old regime, and yet - the bones of the dragons are still there, underneath the main halls, hidden but very much there. There's a Targaryen in Castle Black, assumed to be harmless - a disabled elderly man whose allegiance to both the Citadel and the Night's Watch excludes him from the line of succession, theoretically wiping away his family history. And yet he is a Targaryen, and he mentors a new generation of protagonists of Westerosi politics, and surely the fact that Sam heard his words about the prince/princess who was promised and Daenerys will have consequences. There's a secret Targeryen also in the North, although very few know. There are Targaryen loyalists who are planning to topple the new regime. There's a boy who is either another secret Targaryen or the descendant of a Targaryen cadet house, either way someone whose identity (real, imagined or both of them) matters so much to many. But there are also people with Targaryen ancestry who do not carry the name because they're not descended from the male line, or descended from someone born out of wedlock, like Bellegere Otherys and who even knows how many others. And of course Targaryen blood runs through the veins of many whose ancestors married Targaryen women - the Baratheons themselves use their Targeryen blood as a crutch for their ascent to the throne, we see from Quentyn Martell that his Targaryen blood is something he feels important to who he is (although it appears not to be as relevant as he hoped to, it's still something he's acutely aware of). And of course there's Bloodraven doing what he's doing, tapping into a power no one else even understands, and also mentoring a new generation.

House Targaryen is simultaneously a ghost haunting the Seven Kingdoms, and something very much alive. After all, in this world ghosts can be things that are very much alive. It's not a contradiction. There's dead dragons under the floor, but their eyes follow you. There's more living dragons that you knew.

Speaking of which. The way the lines between dragons and Starks/weirwood trees are blurred is obviously so important. A man of Targaryen blood tapping into the power of the weirwood network and teaching a Stark about it. The empty sockets of the dragon skulls underneath the Red Keep seemingly watching you like the faces on the trees... but also the statues of the dead Starks in the crypts underneath Winterfell! It's all about the meeting of ice and fire, of Stark and Targaryen, of the Old gods of the North and the gods of Old Valyria. Aegon the Conqueror knew, he did call his prophetic dream a song of ice and fire. Rhaegar tried to figure out what that meant, at some point probably assumed the prince that was promised was supposed to be born from a Stark and a Targaryen parent. But there's probably more than that.

Also - the Starks are also assumed to be mostly dead! At some point, the general consensus (at least among those who know that the fake Arya is fake) is that only Sansa remains alive, just like the general consensus about the Targaryen is that only Dany remains alive after Viserys dies. But more Stark children are alive than most people know - there's Stark loyalists planning on putting Rickon back in Winterfell, even.

The post ended up taking a life of its own and I don't actually remember what point I was going to make initially, but hey.

[atopvisenyashill]

what role do you think shiera seastar played in daeron ii's governance of westeros?

okay so first of all. shiera is roughly the same age/generation as all of daeron’s kids - the timeline is vague but the gap of years she could have been born in is like right at the tail end of rhaegal and maekar’s births to several years after. so i imagine that not dissimilar to daenerys, daeron takes more of a very distant brother/paternal role with her. a girl is not a threat the way a boy is, she’s young enough to be his own kid, and she's a motherless child, so it’s fine, she’s raised at court with his kids and he doesn't complain too much about it. i do wonder if part of shiera being raised at court is instigated by myriah and also what "raised at court" could even mean - Maekar is anywhere from like 4 to 10 when daeron becomes king (bloodraven is roughly around the same age as Maekar, maybe a year to four years older) which means Shiera is under 10 as well, as young as a toddler (i mean hell, if she's born at the tail end of Aegon's reign, she could be the same age as Valarr who is Daeron's grandson). So depending on when it is she's born, is she at KL or does Daeron ask for her to be brought to Dragonstone? I mean, how set up was Daeron's court at Dragonstone? It had to have existed at least on a small scale because Daeron takes the capital bloodlessly after Aegon IV dies.

SO. Anyways I think it's not likely she does very much at the beginning of his reign due to being around the same age as, at the oldest his second youngest son and at the youngest the same age as his first grandchild. Coupled with the fact that her mother is dead and foreign born, being from Lys, she likely lives the life of a typical lady at court but potentially without the pressure to marry. Yes, she's a bastard, but she's a legitimized one, beloved by the royal family, with a sister-by-law who comes from a culture that seems to believe if you have a bastard, you best act like a responsible parent for that child (not to say Dorne doesn't have it's own bastard based issues, see: Obara BUT I do think someone like Robert would not be allowed to just leave all his bastards all scattered about willy nilly. I think it's likely those children and their mothers have the ability to push for acknowledgement in a way a lot of bastards north of the marches don't). I also think the fact that Shiera's mother is foreign born would help ingratiate her with Myriah and Daeron's kids - we know Larra felt like an outcast, I think it's likely Shiera bonds with the royal family over feeling like she's culturally on the outs.

By the time she's an adult, the Blackfyre Rebellion is in full swing. So - does she take on a more advisory role when she gets older? I think it's possible. Here are some choice quotes:

"You've known queens and princesses. Did they dance with demons and practice the black arts?" "Lady Shiera does. Lord Bloodraven's paramour. She bathes in blood to keep her beauty. And once my sister Rhae put a love potion in my drink, so I'd marry her instead of my sister Daella."

-the Sworn Sword

Bloodraven proved to be a capable Hand, but also a master of whisperers who rivaled Lady Misery, and there were those who thought he and his half sister and paramour, Shiera Seastar, used sorcery to ferret out secrets. It became common to refer to his "thousand eyes and one," and men both high and low began to distrust their neighbor for fear of their being a spy in Bloodraven's employ. 

-The World of Ice and Fire

"You can know a man by his friends, Egg. Daeron surrounded himself with maesters, septons, and singers. Always there were women whispering in his ear, and his court was full of Dornishmen. How not, when he had taken a Dornishwoman into his bed, and sold his own sweet sister to the prince of Dorne, though it was Daemon that she loved? Daeron bore the same name as the Young Dragon, but when his Dornish wife gave him a son he named the child Baelor, after the feeblest king who ever sat the Iron Throne.

-the Sword Sword

We know very little about Shiera at this moment in time but I think it's not unlikely that for the middle part of Daeron's reign, when it seems Baelor & Valarr have taken the lead on going out and about in the kingdom, that Shiera was acting in some sort of advisory capacity (nothing official, similar to Elaena in that she's working behind the scenes rather than sitting on the council) and some people had a bit of an issue with it. I think it's not unlikely that as Daeron got older, he might have distanced himself from her but by that point she had an in: no i'm not talking about bloodraven i'm talking about Aerys. Aerys immediately made Bloodraven hand and while I give Daeron some shit for not getting Bloodraven under control, it's ultimately Aerys that really lets Bloodraven go crazy with his police state and I think Shiera has big hand in that, perhaps on par with Lady Mysaria. Or at least, I hope she does lmao, and I think it's interesting that both Mysaria and Serenei, Shiera's mom, are from Lys. Maybe Shiera being mentioned in conjunction with Mysaria and Bloodraven is nothing, but I think what's most likely is that as Shiera got older and started dabbling with more magic, she took up a sort of Court Sorceress role a la Melisandre, at the behest of King Aerys I himself - and why wouldn't he turn to her? It's likely they were raised together!

[littleandless]

HOUSE OF THE DRAGON SEASON 2 FINALE: MY THOUGHTS

i mean, wow.

tyland getting some screen time yay. also, i was glad to see the trend of dyed beards represented on screen FINALLY. game of thrones shied away from that.

aegon and larys running away together…doomed yaoi</3

honestly i’m glad they made aegon’s broken dick part of show canon. first of all, he deserves it, but also…it means he’s about to get perverted in a different way. maybe larys will introduce him to voyeurism.

jacaerys has gone full-on bratty failson, which is kind of pathetic and sexy of him tbh.

ulf went from harmless idiot to dangerously irreverent soooo quickly. i know he has a dragon or whatever but he should at least pretend to kiss ass for the moment. like hugh! he knows the value of appearances.

how the hell did gwayne even find out about alicent and criston fucking? am i meant to assume he extrapolated that from the intense sniffing of the handkerchief?

i love how nihilistic criston cole has become. no more shiny white veneer, just a bald-faced suicide mission. he doesn’t fear death. the only thing holding him back since that night when alicent found him was her. and now he sees the futility of it all. so yeah, let’s embrace death! yippee!

this episode added so much to helaena’s character. after we see her and daemon interact in his weirwood vision, it cuts to her in the next scene, in the same outfit with the same facial expression. we’ve had 2 seasons of helaena making prophetic statements, but they were always full of metaphors, and her dreamer status seemed more like something that happened to her rather than something she did. but this episode turns that assumption completely on its head.

the weirwood vision was INSANE! BLOODRAVEN! DAENERYS! THE WHITE WALKERS! it reminded me that we’re being told this story for a purpose. grrm didn’t write a spin-off just for the sake of making a few extra dollars. it’s all connected. we’ve been hearing about the dance since shireen baratheon taught davos seaworth about it in season 5 and joffrey spoiled the ending in season 3 of game of thrones. and when ser duncan and baby egg finally appear on screen in a knight of the seven kingdoms, witnessing the blackfyre rebellions amd interacting with brynden rivers, things will be recontextualized yet again. the impact of all of these characters reverberates for centuries. you see it everywhere in a song of ice and fire. even if you’re not much of a reader, i implore you to read them anyway. and i’m not just saying that. even if grrm never actually finishes the series, i will die swearing that it was totally worth the read. if you have any love for these characters at all, give it a shot.

back to helaena: her scene with aemond was fucking fantastic. away from the eyes of their mother, each of them is more themselves than ever. aemond isn’t just an incel a wounded aggressor and helaena isn’t just a wounded dove. they both have a clarity of purpose, and they are in direct opposition to the other’s. aemond “come with me, help me defend us and all we hold dear” and helaena “it won’t change anything, it’s over, you’re already dead” it had me on the absolute edge of my seat. i felt like a dog in need of a stuffed animal to annihilate with my teeth. THIS IS CINEMA.

back to daemon: from his first scene in the episode, we see a resignation that wasn’t there before. he accepts the maddening nature of harrenhal, he accepts alys hovering over him at night and leading him to the weirwood tree, and he doesn’t brush off her words. he embraces the power of this place as well as the finality of what it reveals to him. there will be no more yearning or grasping, at least not for his own purposes. he knows what he must do. he submits to rhaenyra as he submits to his impending death.

the scene between alyn and corlys was so powerful. idk maybe it’s because i have daddy issues too, but it moved me a lot. watching your father forsake you for his trueborn heirs while you toil ceaselessly for survival, and then witnessing the downfall of everything he holds dear, and then finally…finally he acknowledges your value. knowing that all your success as a ship captain is attributed to the man who didn’t or couldn’t give you shit else. trying to compensate for decades-old wounds. all of this and he can still barely stand to meet your eyes. GOD.

another illicit rhaenicent scene! so much sexual potential and they just keep squandering it!

but seriously, that scene was insane. alicent has completely given up. “here, have the castle. take king’s landing. i’ll open the door for you. fuck, take my son too, take it all.”

all of their relationship encapsulated in a single conversation! everything boiled down to its base essence: i clung to honor and tradition and resented you because you didn’t, and now i’ve done some of the same things i always judged you for and i’ve realized it doesn’t matter. i just want this all to end.

that’s it, guys! that’s their whole dynamic! hell, that’s the whole show basically! but it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late!

someone redesign the sigil of house targaryen as a dragon eating its own tail and wrap this shit up

[a-secret-bolton-vampire]

Something has been bugging me lately; why is it that so much of the ASOIAF fandom hates romance? Like, this is a problem I've noticed and it's honestly kind of weird. To be sure, George's view on what is romantic is, uh, dubious at best, but to outright be so against it the way I've seen some people be against it is quite bizarre, to say the least.

Rhaegar and Lyanna? Of course there's no romance there! Rhaegar clearly was just using Lyanna as a baby factory to produce a super prophecy child because that's all there is to his character!

Jon and Daenerys? They won't be getting together like that dumb show! And if they are, it will be purely a political marriage! No lovey dovey stuff there!. After all Dany likes "bad boys" (which somehow translates to "evil men") so why would she like a strong, assertive man like Jon? And why would Jon like her? Not like he likes strong fiery tempered women!

Those are the two biggest examples but there is more. Daemon Blackfyre and Daenerys Targaryen are more ambiguous since they are historical characters, but a lot of people are convinced it was 100% unrequited love.

I've even seen fans complain about the line from Barristan where he thinks about how Bittersteel and Bloodraven's rivalry over the affections of Shiera Seastar caused the Blackfyre Rebellions. Like sure it wasn't the only reason, but to think that jealousy and romance didn't have an effect on those rebellions is a bit weird.

Yes, I am aware these are some problematic pairings, not least of which because most of these are pretty incestuous. However, the complaints about these romances do not stem from a moral quandary. In the case of R+L, you see people calling Rhaegar a groomer and pedophile (see my post on him on my full thoughts there), but the majority of it is simply "well it's stupid because they told no one and caused a whole war, the selfish brats" (bonus points if someone specifically targets Lyanna).

Okay, setting aside the fact that, like with the Blackfyre Rebellions, Robert's Rebellion was caused by far more factors than their elopement, why does making it an abduction Rhaegar did simply for a magic messiah baby make it a better story than the fact these two were in love and desperate to escape situations they felt trapped in, leading to shortsighted decisions that had an unexpected affect on many people?

With Jon and Dany, the backlash is "but that's so cliche! George wouldn't do something as cliche as two of the biggest protagonists falling in love." As if George doesn't constantly engage with cliche storybeats as often or even more than he subverts them. Even when the evidence for the two getting together is literally so overwhelming that you'd need to be willfully ignorant to ignore the foreshadowing (plus the fact George literally said that their union is "the point of the series").

And again, I must ask; why is Jon and Dany marrying to secure a political alliance without any real love between them a better story than an epic, doomed romance between two people who have gone through such similar struggles and have such similar personalities? What does R+L=J even exist for if they are just a couple of convenience using each other?

I'm not saying you have to love and ship all these people together. Because we sometimes forget our little fandom bubble, most people are not okay with even fictional incest ships. That's okay. Sometimes it's not even incest ships, but again, that's okay! We are all different and have our preferences! Some might not even care much for romance.

But the way a lot of this is criticized doesn't read like that. It's always focusing on the negative aspects. Especially with Dany's love interests. I'm not a fan of Daario and Dany, personally, but it is a bit uncomfortable how she is targeted so heavily for thinking and getting horny about him. Like... let a girl be horny and infatuated? Lol, I don't know!

With Rhaegar and Lyanna, Prince Duncan the Small and Jenny of Oldstones, the "problem" is that their disregard for political betrothals and following their hearts makes them stupid monsters who are directly responsible for the deaths of thousands. That is absolutely not the way we should take these romances.

These doomed, tragic affairs aren't about how people are selfish. It's about the power of love. The way love makes people act rashly. The way love consumes someones thoughts and feelings. Love is powerful, it is transformative, transcending. That is the point. Even in spite of the death and chaos occurring around it, the love these people have for each other is something that cannot be broken.

I feel like the fandom has taken the wrong approach to this series tone and themes. I'm not George's biggest personal fan, to be quite honest, but he is a self described romantic. Turning Rhaegar from a lovestruck prince to a selfish crazed maniac is not romantic. Turning romance or potential romance into cold political maneuvers is not romantic.

The point of all this is that, yes, the world is dark. It's scary, it's cruel, unforgiving, and cold. But in that darkness, there are pockets of light that shine and make you feel safe, and warm, and happy. It makes you forget all the troubles around you. That light, that warmth, that love, is worth fighting for, even if it's all that is left, even if it doesn't last.

I am of course, slightly biased in my assessment, lmao. You could say that me, being a bisexual polyamorous transfemme, is maybe a bit of a big fan of romance and love! Yet, it still saddens me that people try to keep romances from just being romances, and try to make the story and world more bleak as a result. We already have Ramsay, Joffrey, Gregor, Euron, Randyll Tarly. We have people who use love against others for their own gain or outright reject it violently. We don't need more of that.

[nitewolf14]

I have a question. Putting aside ether you are team green or team black answer me this. Why the hell werent Allicent’s kids born with brown hair? Aren’t we led to believe brown hair/black hair is supposed to be some kind of dominant gene trait? Is it because Viserys was a pure bred Valyrian and that carried his genes through? This wouldn’t exactly make sense though! Even Rhaenys had black hair and Aemon was a pure Valyrian and he married a Baratheon I’m confused on how this didn’t happen with Allicent as well. Is this all just story convince for the sake of writing a war? Elia Martell had two children by Rhaegar and Rhaenys looked like a Martell while Aegon was reported to look like his father, pale hair and all. Aegon the unworthy had VARIOUS children that had various genes when it came to hair, skin color, and eyes. Rosey, the Otherys siblings, Aegor Rivers, Mya Rivers, Brynden Rivers, and Gwenys Rivers being examples of some of the children he had. Now don’t get me wrong, not all the kids Aegon the unworthy had were described but we DO know at least that bittersteel had purple eyes and black hair. That checks out, then we can assume the rest of them were a healthy mix of their parents. Besides the oddball Brynden aka Bloodraven and Shiera who had rare mismatched eyes like Alyssa Targaryen.

Now riddle me this. How is it possible NONE of Alicents kids came out with her coloring yet most of Rhaenyra’s kids did? At the very least some of Alicents kids should have had different eye colors yet there’s no mention of it, on the contrary, her kids looked like perfect Valyrian children. But…that’s not how genetics work 😭 at least ONE of them should have been the odd one out and some of Rhaenyra’s kids with Harwin should have come out with one of her characteristics in some way. Yet that’s not what happened!

Truthfully 😭 I think the Maesters either lied about the characteristics of the children or they put in false information to make the Targaryen’s to look as bad as possible. Fire and blood was made many centuries after the fact. It would have been so easy to just write out whatever you pleased about how people looked because no one was alive from that time period anymore 🤷🏾‍♀️ everyone around the current timeline in asoiaf would look to this history book as fact with no question because of how trusted they are supposed to be(because we know that the people in the story know of what happened back then. So at the very least the book has been around for a few years. Or at least the accounts of what happened has at any rate)

Sure, this could also be writers convince to write out the war but that’s so boring! 🤣 Not to mention there was literally a war dedicated to bastard Targaryens and how they looked!

This was just something that struck a cord in me and I thought it would be something fun to dive into!

[goodqueenaly]

Is there any significance to the words mormonts/jons Raven says or is it just simply a clever bird

Oh, I very much believe that Mormont's raven is specifically being skinchanged into by Bloodraven. I won't claim that everything the raven says is meaningful (because I don't think it is), or that I can even necessarily always tell when the raven's words are indicative of Bloodraven voicing a specific opinion versus are used by the author to make a narrative or thematic point in the scene, but I do believe that Bloodraven left himself a way to spy, so to speak, inside the Night's Watch even after he "disappeared". After all, Bloodraven in his political life was well known, and widely feared, for his rumored (at least to some extent accurately) intelligence network: "how many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have" went the familiar contemporary phrase, and he was certainly not above using supernatural means, such as glamours, to obtain information (as demonstrated in "The Mystery Knight"). If we suppose that at some point around or after 252 AC, Bloodraven realized that his mission was to prepare the world for the coming of the Others and find and train the greenseer champion of humanity, which I think is generally right, then why should we suppose that Bloodraven would have forgotten all his strategies and lessons as the all-seeing Hand, and left the Watch and the Wall - the key line of defense against the Others - out of his supervision once he was no longer Lord Commander? Familiar as he clearly is with skinchanging into ravens, Bloodraven I think decided that the best way to keep an eye (pun fully intended) on the Watch was to plant his agent there, one he could slip into whenever he chose to observe the actions of the Lord Commander, and one which, if a great need arose, he could use to deliver information without a "that talking coyote was really just a talking dog" type of reaction (since ravens can talk, in a very limited extent, in this universe)

Of course, sometimes I think Bloodraven-as-the-raven is just having some fun with his unsuspecting listeners, too:

Winter is coming. The Stark words had never sounded so grim or ominous to Jon as they did now. "My lord," he asked hesitantly, "it's said there was a bird last night …" "There was. What of it?" "I had hoped for some word of my father." "Father," taunted the old raven, bobbing its head as it walked across Mormont's shoulders. "Father."

Again, this is the same guy who, while guised as "Maynard Plumm" quipped that they might all be Aegon IV's bastards. It's the same wry sense of humor here - he knows, and he knows that Mormont and Jon don't, that Jon's biological father is not Eddard Stark.

[lemonhemlock]

i don't understand got fans like how is tywin a genius strategist when the only thing the red wedding accomplishes in the long run is north independence with the starks on top of it probably forever 😭

there are a lot of things happening here, some driven by fandom discourse (reactions and counter-reactions) and some conflations of realpolitk with fantasy elements and book writing norms. enough ink has been spilled in every direction, as tywin has both detractors and fanboys, the latter of whom sometimes lean perilously in the redpill direction (you know the type). i have a divergent take from them but i'm not truly interested in the debate either, as it has been overdone to death by now.

the following is a little bit of a tumblr hive mind mentality, wherein people with a (justifiable) anti-patriarchal discourse want to discredit a character that so strongly symbolizes patriarchy to the point that they refuse to assign him any positive traits. so, if tywin is a bad father and a bad person, it must naturally follow that he is bad at everything - he is a shit general, he doesn't know a thing about politics or diplomacy or wealth management or any of the activities that fall within the purview of nobility.

which i just think is not authorial intention at all and neither did the execution truly suggest that to me. correct me if i'm wrong, but, so far, at least, all of the westerland POVs we have had on tywin have been positive (bar his children ofc). sure, we haven't had a whole lot, but the author also threw stannis in there for good measure, who is not an easily impressionable fellow. robert, as well, may not like tywin, but he sees him as a person he can do business with and tries not to step on his tail too much.

all of this to say that textual evidence points to the fact that tywin is a good administrator and a fearsome adversary. i don't think grrm is even interested in presenting us with a character that is devoid of savy and proficiency at this level, nor do i think that his expertise is unwarranted, as unlikeable as his personality is. even euron, who is arguably the most despicable character in the books, has his own specific skill set. at the end of book 3, the tyrell-lannister alliance is enough to secure the rule of joffrey/tommen and the north is under bolton rule.

now, of course that tywin doesn't plan for the white walkers, for jon's secret parentage reveal or for the existence of bloodraven luring bran. but who would? you can only plan according to the information you have at hand and, at the point in the books tywin operates, magic is a faraway dream to entertain children. as far as he knows, he just wiped out the stark line, bar sansa, who is married to his son. yes, she later escapes, which can become a problem. but my point is that, when people attempt to appraise tywin's efficiency, they bring the magical element into discussion, in that he is presiding over the calm before the storm and that there are many destabilizing factors at play against his status-quo, of which he is blissfully ignorant. but, the thing is that you can be otto von bismarck reborn, but your political ideology is not going to hold water against an alien invasion or fantasy beasts or weirwood CCTV. you can only plan and scheme according to the pre-established rules of your world, and if those rules change overnight, then of course your plans are going to prove "faulty" and you're going to have to adapt. but is this really a gotcha that directly targets your cunning or strategic thinking?

my final observation is on the norm-breaking red wedding. this is not the say that norm-violation doesn't carry consequences (there are already essays on this topic so i won't insist), but i'll interject that whether these consequences manifest always or only sometimes is still debated in the literature, as is the nature of those consequences. scholars remain divided, if you will. realists will tell you norm-adherence is subordinated to a state's cost-benefit analysis and the power they dispose of to achieve their goal. liberals (IR) will tell you that cooperation between actors is mutually-beneficial and thus respecting shared norms is the rational choice. in any case, in order for neoliberal institutionalism to function, you first need to have institutions - department in which westeros is sorely lacking. i'll remind you that westeros does not even have a parliamentary body.

coming back to the text, tywin pulled off this little tactic before - to great success as well. he eradicated the reynes and the tarbecks and, so far, we haven't heard one dissenting voice from the westerlands criticising his decision. you can argue that that's a worldbuilding flaw or an absence brought about by lack of space, but i think it's also fair to say he was allowed by divine providence (i.e. grrm) to have this victory without any visible consequences. and i will go as far as to say that, after the red wedding, tywin is not killed by a stark or a martell loyalist or a westerlands rebel, but by his own son, for reasons that have nothing to do with the reynes of castamere, the red wedding or elia martell. it's a common plotwriting technique - tywin is obviously punished for his deeds by the narrative in the metatextual sense, but it doesn't come as the result of his military enterprises or his political decisions. it's more of a crime of passion, driven by unfulfilled parental love.

this does not mean that the author is not trying to denounce tywin's style of ruling at the same time. that tywin is a deconstruction of machiavelli's prince is not a new or original remark. but if grrm agreed with tywin's ideology, then he would have lived out to "win" the so-called game of thrones. grrm is looking for a different type of kinghood and showing us a lot of different variants in the process. but i don't think he disqualifies tywin's version because it is not effective or because tywin was really actually secretly incompetent. are brutal tactics really not effective in the real world? i ask you: is that really an honest observation of the world around us?

no, i think grrm disqualifies brutality because it takes away one's humanity. because you shouldn't resort to it anyway, even if you can, even if it's so easy and tempting and effective. even if it means that, in its absence, you lose or die. because what kind of life is one impinged by cruelty and lived in the service of our base impulses?

[biichama]

Reading A Song of Ice and Fire: A Game of Thrones After-Book Report

RIGHT. So I promised both to myself and to the internet that I'd report on my thoughts on the A Game of Thrones POV characters and their storylines before I started A Clash of Kings and this is me making good on that. That said, I don't know if I will have any bold or original thoughts. This is just my feels about things. And since I was thoroughly spoiled for a lot of shit past this book thanks to fandom osmosis and especially fanfic, there's probably going to be those spoilers when talking about POV characters.

Also, I should probably note before we get into things that besides being spoiled by fandom osmosis and fanfic in particular, this is my second attempt at reading A Game of Thrones, with the first attempt taking place in 1997 or so when it was the only ASOIAF book and I myself was in my mid-teens. I ended up noping out after Bran II for Yeeting Reasons and when I found out from @evilmidnightlurker in early 2001 about a Certain Infamous Execution (which is when he decided he wasn't going to read the sequels), I thought I'd had a narrow escape from books that were obviously nothing but nihilism and an author going LOL YOU CARED at the reader. And like, I do know now that that's not how GRRM rolls even if it's how the tv show guys roll but I did not know it then.

(Though like I think at some point around 2003 or so I did read "The Hedge Knight" in the Legends anthology, which I'd checked out from the library so I could read "The Little Sisters of Elluria" because I was totally into the Dark Tower at that point? But I did not retain much memory of it, except for the twist about Egg's identity.)

Flash forward twenty years later when I noticed that a Yuri on Ice fanfic writer I liked had a Pride and Prejudice fusion fic. Now P&P is a favorite of mine and I'm usually willing to read fusions when I only know one canon, so I decided that sure, I'd read this fic. And it was a Jaime/Brienne fic and despite having so little context for J/B outside of what I'd picked up from the cultural zeitgeist of the Game of Thrones tv show existing, I really liked the fic. So I followed the author's bookmarks to other J/B fanfic and read them and also liked them and spent years reading J/B as a pairing without, like, actually reading the canon it came from (because I remembered having to abruptly put down the book back in 1997) and getting more and more spoiled for everything and it became this weird almost special interest of, like, lurking around the edges of the fandom but not actually engaging in the canon.

And then I decided last spring that I would actually engage with the canon or at least read the other two Dunk and Eggs because I'd heard a lot of good things about them and didn't remember minding the first one and so I did and I loved them and my favorite little side character was Bloodraven and I knew from my lurking around the fandom that Bloodraven shows up again in ADWD and so I was all oh fuck, I'm going to have to actually read these books now.

So I did.

And honestly, I was kind of stressed for the first eight chapters, because I remembered being badly affected by the Yeeting (likely because I have a terrible fear of falling), but I pushed through and I'm glad I did because this is really good shit, you guys.

But yeah, okay, I should get ahead with the whole POV report thing. I'll probably make some notes about what little I remember of the 1997 reading here and there, because I definitely am not the same person I was back then and I think it affects how I read things.

Prologue:

Okay, so this was atmospheric as all fuck. I spent the first half being deeply sympathetic with Will and I kind of assumed that Waymar was going to panic and get killed easily when they did run into the Others--I knew going in because of being HELLA SPOILED BY FANFIC and from my dimly remembered recollections from my initial 1997 read that the prologue guys were going to run into Others and someone was going to make it back past the wall to tell people about them, only to get executed by Ned for deserting. I just kind of assumed that person would be Will? But it was NOT, it was Garred who didn't see nearly as much as Will did. And yeah, I was pleasantly surprised that Waymar, who I thought was all talk, really did make a damn good attempt to fight the Other he ran into. I did not expect him to reanimate while Will was poking at him. GOOD JOB JUMP SCARING ME, GEORGE.

Bran:

I love Bran. A lot. Both as a perspective and as a character. I think that's probably why him getting yeeted in his second chapter made me nope out right away back in 1997--well, that and the whole fear of falling thing. And also, the fake-out where Jamie rescues him and then decides he has to yeet him anyway was just so fucking cruel. Anyway, I do like him and I think I had the vague idea back in 1997 that he was the main character (inasmuch as anyone was) which also made the yeeting shocking and YES I do have to keep calling it the yeeting, using a funny name for the incident puts that needed bit of distance in there for me.

(Anyway, I enjoy child characters in books and always have and I think Martin writes some really good child perspectives to be honest--like, striking a good balance between how much kids actually understand about the world and how much they don't. Because kids do understand more than you think, even if you wish they didn't.)

But yeah, I liked reading about Winterfell from Bran's perspective (you can tell how important it is to him) and I loved getting lore from Old Nan and Luwin in his chapters and honestly, they really were good. And his dream with the three-eyed crow was trippy in the best way.

Catelyn:

God, I love this woman. And I almost didn't expect to? Like I went into my 2024 read wanting to like her, given everything I knew about her from fanfiction and lurking around ASOIAF--and also to spite the misogynists who blame her for everything--but I did not expect to love her so hard. I think what I love about Cat is how she fucking commits herself to things. Watching over Bran's sickbed, hauling Tyrion's ass around, etc etc. She doesn't do things by halves. I like that in a character.

I will say that Catelyn VI was one of the worst fucking chapters to read. George is like a really visceral writer and like really good at making me see things on the page, even though I usually have a pretty shoddy mind's eye? And the Eyrie is basically built to freak me out. So yeah, I was never going to like a chapter which was more or less LET'S SEE IF CATELYN WILL FALL TO HER DEATH ON HER WAY TO VISIT LYSA even though I knew she survives until the Red Wedding.

(I hate the very existence of the moon door by the way. Hate it, hate it, hate it.)

Dany:

So yeah. Dany's a baby and I don't think I would have got that if I hadn't noped out of my 1997 read at Bran II. Because I was barely any older than she was and surely I was old enough to enter into a political marriage with some fancy barbarian horse-riding dude a decade older than me, right? Right?

But yeah, AGOT was definitely written in the 90s and you can tell, because there's this sort of... generalized acceptance of teenage girls as objects of desire that was like just part of the culture back then and now it's not. And it's kind of reflected in Dany's chapters, even though it's not what I'd call egregious by my own personal standards? Like I wouldn't call George a dirty old man, but he's definitely a writer of his time. But also I cut my teeth on Piers Anthony in middle school (now THAT was a dirty old man) so like I may have a higher tolerance than other people.

Anyway, I enjoyed Dany and her chapters, though she wasn't my favorite perspective. I do definitely agree with Prokopetz about her storyline having that whole Romantic Fantasy vibes going on.

Ned:

I SWEAR TO GOD THAT R+L HAS TO EQUAL J IN THE BOOKS TOO BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO READ HIS CHAPTERS ONCE YOU KNOW HOLY SHIT IT ALL MAKES SENSE!!!!

Ahem. Yes. I like Ned and I really liked reading his chapters--they're all incredibly well put together--and as I've mentioned in my prior live-blogging, I was simply Not Prepared for how quickly everything goes to shit in King's Landing. Like holy crap. There is very little padding in his storyline whatsoever and I went in expecting that there would be.

I went into every single one of his chapters with a feeling of trepidation and dread and you know what? I was right to.

Jon:

WOW YOU SURE ARE A TEENAGE FANTASY HERO, JON SNOW. In retrospect, I'm not sure why 1997 bii was under the impression that Bran was the Designated Fantasy Protagonist of these books, except that we did meet Bran first and the only other character who'd had a second chapter by Bran II was Catelyn and teenage bii figured it was more likely that the hero was the kid who dreamed of knighthood rather than his mom. Jon was going to be his sidekick, right? A helpful mentor figure that hopefully wouldn't get killed or anything. Like obviously this was a full decade before Gurren Lagann, but if someone had told me in 1997 that Jon was going to be Bran's Kamina figure I'd have gone yeah, that sounds right.

But yeah. Jon (much like Dany to be honest) really is the obvious designated fantasy hero character and I am laughing so much at my 1997 self now. I'm sure if I'd read further than Jon I back then I'd have figured it out pretty quickly--it's really obvious by Jon III if not Jon II--but I noped out at Bran II and this is what I get for it.

I like Jon all right and I like the chapters on the wall all right. He's not a stand-out favorite but he's decent. I had no idea that Master Aemon being a Targaryen was meant to be a big twist. (Thanks fandom osmosis.)

Arya:

I'm pretty sure that 1997 me ate Arya up with a spoon to be quite honest. She was bad at girl stuff just like me and had a contentious relationship with her sister (again just like me) and she was spunky and determined and very, very cool. Like I only got the one chapter of her, but it was a good one.

Her later chapters were really good as well. Again, I think George is better at writing child characters than people give him credit for? Like with the Ned chapters, things went to shit here a lot faster than I thought they would and for some reason I thought Arya would meet Gendry in this book independently of Ned, but she didn't.

Tyrion:

Now we get into characters who I didn't get to read any POV chapters from in my 1997 attempt and I do like Tyrion quite a lot, it turns out. Like his chapters were mostly all good and I appreciated his cleverness and the way he interacted with Jon and the Night's Watch and the younger Starks and how he talked himself in and out of trouble along the way.

That said, Tyrion V was excruciating and painful to read and I fucking hate that the sky cells exist WHY. They're like the moon door, but worse. Why is the Vale like this? Least favorite region of Westeros bar none. Somebody please send WOSHA (Westerosi OSHA) to build some safety rails.

Anyway, I did not expect Bronn to be a sellsword that Catelyn hired at all? Like I had a vague idea that Tyrion had been put on trial at some point in the book and Bronn came into the story related to that, but I think before I sat down and read AGOT I assumed that, like, Bronn was some dude passing through whatever town is attached to the Eyrie and Tyrion grabbed him off the street. Nope.

Another thing I didn't expect: getting the story of Tysha when I did and as briefly as I did. Again, it was something I'd been spoiled for, but I thought it would come out later with Shae. (Who I also didn't expect Tyrion to pick up in this book. I thought it would happen in ACOK.)

Sansa:

I would like to believe that 1997 bii would have had room for Sansa in my teenage heart, despite how much I immediately glommed onto Arya, prepared to take her side in the Glorious War of Sisterly Rivalry. Honestly, I think she probably would have won me over in Sansa II, because it's absolutely delightful to see her afloat in all the magic and romanticism of the tourney--and also to see when the spell fades. I suppose that makes Sansa II kind of a microcosm of her storyline in general?

(The conversation with the Hound on the way back from the tourney was one I'd already read before as an excerpt, but it was good to get the full context.)

Her interactions with Littlefinger are awful, though. Now that's a character I did not expect to hate as much as I did. I wanted to like him, because Cat trusted him and I like Cat, even though I knew because of spoilers that he'd sell Ned out when the going got tough, but I did not expect him to be so goddamn insufferable to deal with. Honestly, even more so in Ned's chapters than Sansa's. Basically in any chapter he shows up in, even Catelyn's.

Maybe George will get me to change my mind on him later, but I'm not holding my breath.

[windriverdelta]

How did Euron survive his trip to Valyria?

One aspect of Euron Greyjoy that is often argued about is whether he has really been to Valyria. Crow's Eye claims so in the Reaver and Drowned Man AFFC chapters, while Lord Rodrik "The Reader" Harlaw voices doubt. According to TWOIAF and others, no one who went to Valyria after the Doom came back - except maybe Aerea Targaryen and her dragon Balerion, and the former died soon after return while the latter was noticeably injured despite being literally the biggest and scariest dragon known in ASOIAF. However, my understanding is that Martin himself confirmed that Euron did indeed visit Valyria, or at least this is the common interpretation of his statements.

One thing that doesn't come up often is that "Euron visited Valyria" does not have to mean "Euron set physically foot there himself". He could have flown over it, or used someone else's body.

In The Reaver AFFC, Euron makes the following claim:

"When I was a boy, I dreamt that I could fly," he announced. "When I woke, I couldn't . . . or so the maester said. But what if he lied?"

As a number of people have noted, this is eerily reminiscent of Bran's dreams of falling and flying in AGOT, while he was comatose. During these dreams - which probably are not actual dreams in the normal sense, but rather extracorporeal experiences - Bran was among other things flying over Westeros, and seeing as far as the Heart of Winter and deep into it (Bran III AGOT). If Euron had a similar experience but looked southeast, he could have seen Valyria - and into Valyria.

What's more, Bloodraven tells us that you need to be a skinchanger to become a greenseer. Jojen Reed says that he (Jojen) is only a greendreamer (Bran III ADWD) and doesn't mention any flying "dreams", indicating that they are specific to greenseers So if the flight "dreams" are a sign that Euron has the greensight, then he's also a skinchanger.

We know from Bran III ASOS, Bran I and III ADWD that he can skinchange into Hodor, and Varamyr in the ADWD prologue elaborates on the concept of skinchanging into people. There are indications in the Aeron TWOW chapter that Euron skinchanged into his brother Robin - calling his head "soft" as if Euron had been inside. Moreover Bran thinks that "No one must ever know" about the skinchanging into Hodor, Varamyr thinks "No one will ever know" about entering the spearwife Thistle; in a parallel, Euron cuts the tongues out of his ship's crew and has no moral qualms in general - a necessary condition to do something as immoral as skinchanging people. So it's possible that Euron skinchanged into some poor sod that he then sent into Valyria, while his (Euron's) own body remained at a safe distance on his Silence.

[strangedreamings]

HOTD S2E4 (spoilers abound)

Halfway point of S2. No turning back now, folks.

God, I love the tapestry sequence. Threads of fate soaked in blood.

Daemon's dreaming, again? I'd say it's nice to see Young Rhaenyra again but her presence means our boy is losing it. Mental illness gallops in this family, so I shouldn't be surprised. I love that the crown is too big on her, it's a great detail.

Oookay, Daemon cutting her head off is NOT what I expected but yeah, just another sign of him losing the coin toss. Her disembodied head chastising him is ... an interesting touch.

Why are his hands bloody if he was only dreaming?

It's sad that instead of the four Muppet Tullys, we just hear of one and see another. Somebody with this show has no sense of humor and it ain't GRRM. C'mon, give me Grover, Elmo, Kermit, and Oscar, not just Oscar. Let the fans have some fun in an episode that is going to be nothing but pain.

Daemon, your sense of humor is not endearing you to anyone at all.

I just checked, GRRM hasn't said exactly how the Muppet Tullys are related to Catelyn Stark and her siblings, but that's not surprising -- there are huge gaps in most of the Great Houses' family trees.

Dismissing Oscar like that definitely isn't going to make him want to fight for you, Daemon. Of course, Daemon wouldn't know diplomacy if it bit him on the ass. Who in the fuck thought this trip to Harrenhal would be a good idea? Oh yeah, it was him. :P

I get a little giddy when House Blackwood is mentioned. What can I say, my favorite ASOIAF character is Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers, the bastard son of a Blackwood mother and a Targaryen father, and the great-grandson of Daemon and Rhaenyra.

Ooo, does Rhaenys suspect that Alyn is her husband's bastard? (She's right, of course.) But touching his face like that, very creepy.

She does know! Corlys' past has come back to haunt their marriage.

"draw us back from the abyss." Too bad it won't happen. But at least Rhaenys knows the war is going to be very bad for everyone. She's not blinded by glory, duty, or anything else.

The dragon statuette Alicent's holding looks like it was carved out of Styrofoam, like it doesn't weigh a thing. Yeah, it doesn't sound like stone when it falls and breaks either. Where did the budget for this show go?

An abortifacient? And Alicent's pretending it's NOT for her? I'm sure the Grand Maester saw right through that. At least this is sparing Westeros from an Alicent-Criston baby. Can you imagine the utter nightmare such a kid would be?

Your doubts are nice to see but they're far too late, Alicent.

This Team Black Small Council is full of old men with no brains whatsoever. They do have plenty of misogyny, though. *eyeroll* Feed them all to your dragon, Baela.

I don't remember what Ser Alfred's surname is so I can't look him up but I really fucking hate him. I'm glad Corlys was able to shut him up (temporarily). I want a woman (any woman) to best him then kill him, is that too much to ask?

So, for two episodes running, we've seen the immediate aftermath of battles but not the battles themselves. It's a cost-saving measure by HBO, I'm sure, but they can't keep this up narratively -- it'll get boring after a while. I had to look up this one, it's the sack of Duskendale.

"Whore of Dragonstone," huh? Well, Criston, you're the Whore of King's Landing. :P

His white cloak is filthy. No honor in that man whatsoever and his cloak absolutely shows that.

Gwayne's face is bloody. I'm surprised he actually fought. He seems to be the type to hang back and let other people do the fighting for him.

"You are not fit for the white cloak." Tell him! He never was.

"Yours will come in kind." Too bad the Butcher's Ball (probably) isn't until next season, I can't wait to see it.

Ooo, Criston is avoiding Harrenhal! He's showing brains for fucking once. (It won't last.)

Green Small Council and they're talking about Rook's Rest. The ticking of the clock is getting louder and louder. Also, Aemond really does like to pout pensively, doesn't he? I'd hate him for it but fuck, he's too pretty (fucking nuts but yes, too pretty).

Things are getting tense between the brothers and the rest of the council is uncomfortably caught in the middle. Squirm, fellas. You deserve it. Oh, and where's Alicent? Knowing this show, she's probably hemorrhaging somewhere from the abortifacient.

Is this the first time we've seen any of Alicent's kids speak High Valyrian? But it looks like Aemond is fluent and Aegon II is decidedly not. Now I want fanfics of Aemond being firstborn and Aegon being the youngest, just to see if he would've been a better king. Looks like Aegon II realizes his baby brother does have strengths of his own.

No hemorrhaging but it looks like Alicent is making her own medieval heating pad. Larys isn't stupid, Alicent. It's in his nature to notice EVERYTHING, including the bottle you left out in the open. Aemond really didn't get his brains from his mother, did he?

"covered himself in glory" There's a phrase I never thought I'd hear in this franchise.

Larys knows about Alicole, lovely.

Back to Harrenhal. Daemon is following Aemond but I can only assume he's dreaming again, there's no way Aemond got there that quickly. Plus, we haven't seen Aemond's face yet. Besides, this is way too soon for the Battle Above The Gods Eye. I knew it -- "Aemond" has Daemon's face. Yeah, Freud would've had a field day with this dream.

Alys again. My apologies to the actress but I really fucking hate her voice. Nails on a chalkboard. (It's not her accent, that's fine, it's her voice itself.)

Daemon, a woman you suspect of being a witch gives you something to drink and you fucking do it? You have no self-preservation instincts left, do you?

Ser Willem's cute but I'm pretty sure the show's writers made him up -- Benjicot Blackwood didn't have a regent and I can't find any mention of his father having a younger brother. Well, at least he'll be nice to watch while he lasts (which I'm sure won't be long).

Hi, Laena! Back from the dead to haunt Daemon's conscience, I see.

As much as I like the Blackwoods, they really need to let their feud with the Brackens die out. (They won't, of course.)

"I removed them, I didn't burn them." For some reason, I really like the way TGC delivered that line. Whatever you're doing after HOTD, Tom, I intend to see it.

Aegon, you're merely a figurehead now. Unfortunately for you (but fortunately for the realm), you don't have the brains to be anything more.

Wow, Alicent really doesn't think highly of him, does she? I don't know if that's for the best but it makes me feel sorry for Aegon, just a little. If his parents actually gave a damn about him while he was growing up, he wouldn't have turned out the way he did.

Is that Rook's Rest? Title cards would've helped so much. If a castle wasn't in GoT, I can't be expected to recognize it, okay?

"They will not expect it because it is fucking madness." I hate Gwayne but he's right and I can't help liking that line.

"Are you afraid, Ser?"

"Worse. I'm rational."

Yep, I like that line too. Why is Gwayne getting all the good lines? It's making me like him a little and I don't want to.

Jace, your attitude is unhelpful. Show a little more respect to your mother and monarch, especially around other people. I'm not for corporal punishment normally but if I were Rhaenyra, I'd slap you.

Ugh, Rhaenyra's little trip has cost her what little respect she had from her small council.

Jace is a little too eager to use the nukes, isn't he? Kid, you'll never be a good king if you're this trigger happy. Rhaenyra wants to go, Jace wants to go. She undermines him in front of everyone. Good! Serves him right.

Rhaenys offers to go. Yeah, we knew this was coming.

Sorry but Jace is a brat. He's not ready to rule. He's not even ready to be the heir. He's too much of a hothead.

Ugh, the ASOIAF talk. Making this prophecy part of House Targaryen's legacy was a dumb idea.

Sunfyre nudging Aegon in the shoulder like he's a horse is just too cute. This'll be the last cute moment of the series, I'm sure.

Vhagar looks like she just wants to take a nap. Too bad Aemond didn't let her.

Aemond commands Vhagar in Valyrian, Aegon commands Sunfyre in English (sorry, Common Tongue). That says a lot about both of them.

Cole didn't want Aegon on the battlefield but he's not losing a chance to spin this to their advantage. Soldiers always fight harder when their leader is fighting with them.

Meleys vs Sunfyre. Poor Sunfyre is getting torn apart. (What can I say, the animals are innocent in this war.) He's bleeding out.

Vhagar really shouldn't be able to fly with that many holes in her wings.

Oh shit, is Aemond TRYING to kill his brother or is Aegon just in the way?

Poor Sunfyre's screeching sounds a lot like a bird (or a pterodactyl).

Rhaenys, you could've retreated and lived to fight another day.

Fuck this family, the Targaryen stubborn streak will get them all killed.

A seatbelt?! Do you really think that's going to save you against another fucking DRAGON?!

Holy fuck, the size difference between Meleys and Vhagar is ridiculous.

Cole got knocked off his horse while he was trying to get to Aegon. Too bad it didn't kill him.

I could've done without that jump scare, Ryan. :P

Not exactly how Rhaenys died in the book but honestly, I think I like this version better. She looked resigned to her fate as she was falling.

I think Cole might have a punctured lung. Or maybe that was just the sound of him trying to breathe on a battlefield full of smoke. I'm pretty sure he's got a concussion, but then he doesn't have much of a brain to injure. :P

Cole, you're on foot and you passed a horse just standing there. If you're not up for riding, at least bring the damn horse with you.

Aemond looking like he's about to do some more kinslaying, lovely.

A dying Sunfyre and an unmoving Aegon, lovely.

Aemond really has the devil's own luck. Too bad it runs out (next season).

Hey, writers, you spared Ser Harrold Westerling from his book fate, when are you actually going to use him again?

[deathcabindiagonalley]

Regarding the mention of misogyny - my bad, you didn’t mention it but the person I reblogged it from had mentioned it in the tags. That’s partly what I was addressing.

Also, I appreciate you disagreeing respectfully; I’ve put my responses under the cut.

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, including the fact that at the end of the day, pretty much every woman is treated with misogyny in the books, including Daenerys. It’s a horrific, disgusting, misogynistic society that thinks women are second class, and every female character is treated that way. When I said it isn’t misogynistic to think about Daenerys, I meant specifically the idea that she might go mad, not her entire treatment.

I also don’t think Dany will definitely go mad, by the way. If you ask me, I genuinely hope she doesn’t. She’s been built up to be the most deserving ruler, is a descendant of slavers and has freed slaves, has learnt ruling the way others can only hope to. I hope with everything in my heart that she doesn’t go mad because, like you rightly said, we have Cersei already showing Aerys-like signs and we don’t need another.

But there’s a chance she might. It’s not hereditary madness, it’s a risk of incest. Joff went mad and his siblings didn’t. Rhaegar and Viserys both showed very different signs of the madness but they both had it. I get your point that it’s the intent with which people theorise about Dany’s madness - but depending on the way it’s written, if it happens, I don’t think it would necessarily be the most AU thing to happen.

Regarding whether fAegon will also go mad, you’re right that no one talks about it. But that’s mostly because a) the investment in him is really low atm, b) it’s fairly clear he will never actually sit the throne, and c) he’s almost definitely not a Targaryen - at least not as inbred as Daenerys as far as we know. With Jon, again, I agree - his family tree is the same as Dany’s and the likelihood of him going insane is just as high as hers and yet no one talks about it. We absolutely should.

Regarding theories of other dragonriders - yes, Bran is another common candidate, mostly because of Bloodraven’s comment of you will fly. It most likely refers just to the ravens and not a dragon, but I don’t necessarily think that speculating that Bran might warg into one necessarily takes away too much from Daenerys. There are two riderless dragons - for whatever reason, the only other foreshadowed candidates are men. (All the other characters you mentioned have to be crack theories because none of them make sense)

Finally, regarding the fact that the madness is foreshadowed. Again, the way the show did it was actually lazy writing imo. And if it happens in the book, it’ll take some really careful storytelling to ensure it doesn’t come across as a Reddit plot twist. Jon killing her and coming across like a tragic hero is one of the most garbage pieces of writing I have ever seen. I think people’s certainty of her madness is largely due to the fact that it happened in the show - that means nothing to me personally, and I still think there’s a very good chance it won’t happen. GRRM doesn’t do plot twists for the heck of it.

I think wanting Daenerys to go mad so that Jon/Tyrion/Bran save the day is unnecessary and a very shallow way of looking at the story. But speculating that she might, because even good people like Aegon V and Rhaegar showed signs of it, isn’t always biased.

The reason people want Dany to go mad is that she has the resources to solve everyone’s problems but she’s also an obstacle for a lot of the fandoms preferred endgames for their favs. Having her be a crazy evil tyrant lady is a convenient way to get her out of the way so that other characters can use her resources and still get their happy ending.

That’s why there are so many theories that involve other characters (usually the favorite characters of whoever made the theory) taking control of her dragons, and that’s why the show put the main conflict (the war against the WW) as a secondary conflict to the war over the iron throne. Use dany and her resources and then put her down like a mad dog so that the rest can get a happy-ish ending.

[agentrouka-blog]

Do you think ASOIAF is still going to end with Bran on the throne? I kind of find that so incredibly disingenuous. I was so sure pre-GOT Ending that the 7K would all go back to being independent states, since the Targs "unified" (saying this sarcastically) Westeros, and ASOIAF is obviously going to end with the Targs dying out. So it wouldn't make sense to me to still keep that Targ symbolism (the IT and unification of Westeros) intact.

Also, I find such an ending racist. The North is obviously going to secede with Sansa as queen ... But everything that the North wants to be, is what Dorne is. And then Dorne is not going to secede (they're already halfway there anyways) and accept a Stark overlord? There is no way in Hell I see that happening. Dorne has suffered the most from the Targs and has rejected them the most and deserve the independence they have always fought for the most, but they are the ones that are not going to secede? No way.

ASOIAF should end with the full eradication of the Targaryens, the 7K all becoming independent like before, the IT destroyed, and Bran the new Bloodraven overseeing the continent as a tree or whatever. But the North only seceding and another Stark ruling over the rest of the continent? That's just blatant favoritism not to mention an unsatisfactory ending to characters (the Dornish) that have nothing to do with the Starks.

Hi there!

I've made a few post on the subject of what I think the King Bran endgame will be.

Great Council and Harrenhal

Harrenhal and the Starks

Bran the Loophole King by a Lake

Arya prepares Harrenhal

Who stays and who goes independent?

How boy king Bran might work

Bran as a human king not a greenseer

Essentially I think the show ending is a very strongly altered version of it - to the point of absolute absurdity. It feels like they dedicated less time to the political restructuring of Westeros than they did to Tyrion shuffling chairs around before that travesty of a small council meeting. It's nonsense. They didn't care about their ending. Neither should we.

To make my predictions brief: Bran absolutely and definitely will give up his powers in the course of resolving the ice threat. There is absolutely NO way GRRM would place some kind of surveilance godking on a throne and call it a "bittersweet ending". Anyway, KL is done, no more Iron Throne. A Great Council is held to decide the future of Westeros (Congress of Vienna-style but better). They elect a new king (hereditary or electoral, who knows) and the new model of monarchy is likely to be at least somewhat parliamentary with Bran as a figurehead - an intentionally weak figure head! - based on his maternal ancestry line (Tully-Whent) and its connection to Harrenhal, where this new ruling body will be situated.

Very likely Tyrion may be involved in machinations that will raise Bran to the throne, sway the election in his favor in some way. (Foreshadowed by him providing the design for a special saddle for Bran - a special "seat".) His actual endgame will follow after and it will not be happy.

I would be immensely surprised if Dorne did not reestablish independence the same as the North.

[istumpysk]

Operation Stumpy Re-Read

ASOS: Samwell II (Chapter 33)

The long chapters are slowly breaking me down.

"I fed you what I could, but you crows are always hungry. I'm a godly man, else I would have chased you off. You think I need the likes of him, dying on my floor? You think I need all your mouths, little man?" The wildling spat. "Crows. When did a black bird ever bring good to a man's hall, I ask you? Never. Never."

I knew I shouldn't trust that Bloodraven!

+.+.+

Knights are supposed to defend women and children. Only a few of the black brothers were knights, but even so . . . We all say the words, Sam thought. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. A woman was a woman, even a wildling woman. We should help her. We should.

Wow, look at this naive fool, who still believes in the virtue of chivalry.

Hopefully he's punished for it.

+.+.+

There had been no attacks while they had been at Craster's, neither wights nor Others. Nor would there be, Craster said. "A godly man got no cause to fear such. I said as much to that Mance Rayder once, when he come sniffing round. He never listened, no more'n you crows with your swords and your bloody fires. That won't help you none when the white cold comes. Only the gods will help you then. You best get right with the gods."

If Craster can broker a deal with the Others, surely Bran can as well.

+.+.+

Ulmer, stooped and grey-bearded and loose of skin and limb, stepped to the mark and pulled an arrow from the quiver at his waist. In his youth he had been an outlaw, a member of the infamous Kingswood Brotherhood. He claimed he'd once put an arrow through the hand of the White Bull of the Kingsguard to steal a kiss from the lips of a Dornish princess. He had stolen her jewels too, and a chest of golden dragons, but it was the kiss he liked to boast of in his cups.

Wasn't that Elia?

We get a bit of Kingswood Brotherhood backstory in this chapter. I'm not sure of the relevance if there is any. Arya, and the Brotherhood without Banners have the next chapter.

+.+.+

"Slayer," he called. "Come, show us how you slew the Other." He held out the tall yew longbow.

Sam turned red. "It wasn't an arrow, it was a dagger, dragonglass . . ." He knew what would happen if he took the bow. He would miss the butt and send the arrow sailing over the dike off into the trees. Then he'd hear the laughter.

We keep returning to Samwell and archery throughout both ASOS and AFFC.

I don't know what to make of it, but I'm laser focused on the fact that he's nicknamed Sam the Slayer, and has killed an Other.

Is Sam going to figure out how to bring one of those dragons down? Your family burning alive might be good motivation for something like that.

+.+.+

Whenever Sam thought of the cache Jon had found buried beneath the Fist, it made him want to cry. There'd been dagger blades and spearheads, and two or three hundred arrowheads at least. Jon had made daggers for himself, Sam, and Lord Commander Mormont, and he'd given Sam a spearhead, an old broken horn, and some arrowheads. Grenn had taken a handful of arrowheads as well, but that was all.

So now all they had was Mormont's dagger and the one Sam had given Grenn, plus nineteen arrows and a tall hardwood spear with a black dragonglass head.

What's with the number nineteen? There's nineteen dragon skulls in the Red Keep, there's nineteen castles along the Wall, and earlier in this chapter we're reminded Craster has nineteen wives.

There were nineteen skulls. The oldest was more than three thousand years old; the youngest a mere century and a half. - Tyrion II, AGOT

x

The Watch had built nineteen great strongholds along the Wall, but only three were still occupied: Eastwatch on its grey windswept shore, the Shadow Tower hard by the mountains where the Wall ended, and Castle Black between them, at the end of the kingsroad. - Jon III, AGOT

x

Craster had nineteen wives, but none who'd dare interfere once he started up that ladder. - Samwell II, ASOS

+.+.+

"Yes," said Sam, "but is it the cold that brings the wights, or the wights that bring the cold?"

"Who cares?" Grenn's axe sent wood chips flying. "They come together, that's what matters. Hey, now that we know that dragonglass kills them, maybe they won't come at all. Maybe they're frightened of us now!"

I wouldn't be surprised to learn there's some truth to this.

+.+.+

Sam wished he could believe that, but it seemed to him that when you were dead, fear had no more meaning than pain or love or duty.

I am reminded of Beric Dondarrion who never abandoned his duty to King Robert, and Catelyn Stark who's driven by pain.

+.+.+

The dragonglass dagger had melted the pale thing in the woods, true . . . but Grenn was talking like it would do the same to the wights. We don't know that, he thought. We don't know anything, really. I wish Jon was here.

Spoiler alert!

Dragonglass does not kill wights!

It's useless against them, actually. Steel and fire kill wights. The television show lied to you.

Samwell Tarly threw himself forward and plunged the dagger down into Small Paul's back. Half-turned, the wight never saw him coming. The raven gave a shriek and took to the air. "You're dead!" Sam screamed as he stabbed. "You're dead, you're dead." He stabbed and screamed, again and again, tearing huge rents in Paul's heavy black cloak. Shards of dragonglass flew everywhere as the blade shattered on the iron mail beneath the wool. - Samwell III, ASOS

x

Sam cleared his throat. "S-sire. The dagger . . . the dragonglass only shattered when I tried to stab a wight."

Melisandre smiled. "Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more." - Samwell V, ASOS

Are you now wondering why Samwell Tarly sent Jon to Dragonstone to mine a resource that's useless against a wight army? Good, you should be.

+.+.+

He had a dragonglass dagger too, but did he think to use it? Is he lying dead and frozen in some ravine . . . or worse, is he dead and walking?

All of the above.

+.+.+

The spearmen at the gate shouted a challenge, and the Old Bear returned a gruff, "Who in seven hells do you think goes there? Did the Others take your eyes?" He rode between the gateposts, one bearing a ram's skull and the other the skull of a bear, then reined up, raised a fist, and whistled.

There's that bear skull again. Jeor, I would leave.

+.+.+

We lost sight of the true enemy. And now he's here, but we don't know how to fight him. Is dragonglass made by dragons, as the smallfolk like to say?"

"The m-maesters think not," Sam stammered. "The maesters say it comes from the fires of the earth. They call it obsidian."

Mormont snorted. "They can call it lemon pie for all I care. If it kills as you claim, I want more of it."

[...]

Sam had almost forgotten about the wildlings, so much had happened since. "The children of the forest used dragonglass blades," he said. "They'd know where to find obsidian."

Samwell Tarly is tasked with finding more dragonglass.

Samwell Tarly.

It's barely a footnote in Jon's story.

+.+.+

"How great a fool are you?" the old man said within, his voice choked and angry. "Even if Craster gave us the child, he'd be dead before we reached the Wall. We need a newborn babe to care for near as much as we need more snow. Do you have milk to feed him in those big teats of yours? Or did you mean to take the mother too?"

You could buy some formula, like Ned Stark.

+.+.+

When Craster's wives brought onions, he seized one eagerly. One side was black with rot, but he cut that part off with his dagger and ate the good half raw.

George R. R. Martin isn't a fan of Melisandre's way of thinking.

"What if I am? It seems to me that most men are grey."

"If half of an onion is black with rot, it is a rotten onion. A man is good, or he is evil." - Davos II, ACOK

+.+.+

"Two loaves?" Clubfoot Karl complained from down the bench. "How stupid are you women? We need more bread than this!"

[...]

"Hams," Garth of Oldtown said, in a reverent voice. "There were pigs, last time we come. I bet he's got hams hid someplace. Smoked and salted hams, and bacon too."

"Sausage," said Dirk. "Them long black ones, they're like rocks, they keep for years. I bet he's got a hundred hanging in some cellar."

"Oats," suggested Ollo Lophand. "Corn. Barley."

"Corn," said Mormont's raven, with a flap of the wings. "Corn, corn, corn, corn, corn."

"Enough," said Lord Commander Mormont over the bird's raucous calls. "Be quiet, all of you. This is folly."

"Apples," said Garth of Greenaway. "Barrels and barrels of crisp autumn apples. There are apple trees out there, I saw 'em."

A lack of food always seems to be the core issue in every mutiny.

I'm not sure how much of this is planned. Karl, Dirk, and Ollo were all involved with Chett's plan to murder Jeor and desert the Night's Watch.

+.+.+

One instant Craster was coming after him spitting curses. The next he was spitting blood. Dirk had grabbed him by the hair, yanked his head back, and opened his throat ear to ear with one long slash.

[...]

"The gods will curse us," he cried. "There is no crime so foul as for a guest to bring murder into a man's hall. By all the laws of the hearth, we—"

"There are no laws beyond the Wall, old man. Remember?" Dirk grabbed one of Craster's wives by the arm, and shoved the point of his bloody dirk up under her chin. "Show us where he keeps the food, or you'll get the same as he did, woman."

"Unhand her." Mormont took a step. "I'll have your head for this, you—"

Garth of Greenaway blocked his path, and Ollo Lophand yanked him back. They both had blades in hand. "Hold your tongue," Ollo warned. Instead the Lord Commander grabbed for his dagger. Ollo had only one hand, but that was quick. He twisted free of the old man's grasp, shoved the knife into Mormont's belly, and yanked it out again, all red. And then the world went mad.

+.+.+

"You must. Must tell them."

"Tell them what, my lord?" Sam asked politely.

"All. The Fist. The wildlings. Dragonglass. This. All." His breathing was very shallow now, his voice a whisper. "Tell my son. Jorah. Tell him, take the black. My wish. Dying wish."

"Wish?" The raven cocked its head, beady black eyes shining. "Corn?" the bird asked.

"No corn," said Mormont feebly. "Tell Jorah. Forgive him. My son. Please. Go."

Tell the story, Sam! Write it all down for us.

Samwell's tasked with finding more dragonglass, AND he's given Jeor Mormont's dying wish. Hmmm.

+.+.+

Gilly was crying. "Me and the babe. Please. I'll be your wife, like I was Craster's. Please, ser crow. He's a boy, just like Nella said he'd be. If you don't take him, they will."

"They?" said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed, "They. They. They."

"The boy's brothers," said the old woman on the left. "Craster's sons. The white cold's rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don't lie. They'll be here soon, the sons."

If Craster has nineteen daughter-wives (plus some extra younger ones), it's not beyond the realm of possibility that he also has nineteen sons.

Final thoughts:

Okay, let's summarize, because I have a point I'm trying to make.

Sam is given all the dragonglass that Jon found buried.

Sam the Slayer kills a White Walker with that dragonglass.

Sam is instructed to locate more obsidian. He'll later dedicate himself to learning all there is to know about the previous Long Night.

Sam is given Jeor Mormont's dying wish, which must be relayed to Jorah Mormont. Remember, Jorah Mormont doesn't have greyscale in the books, and likely won't be heading to the Citadel anytime soon. When and where will they meet?

"Tell my son. Jorah. Tell him, take the black. My wish. Dying wish." - Samwell II, ASOS

Sam is told by Stannis there is obsidian currently being mined on Dragonstone for the sole purpose of the war against the dead. Stannis tells Sam he plans to send the obsidian to the Wall, but may not hold the castle for long.

I have sent word to Ser Rolland my castellan to begin mining it. I will not hold Dragonstone for very much longer, I fear, but perhaps the Lord of Light shall grant us enough frozen fire to arm ourselves against these creatures, before the castle falls. - Samwell V, ASOS

So, Sam is already fully aware that dragonglass is currently being mined on Dragonstone. He's also aware it doesn't kill wights. He will not be reading that in a book at the Citadel, and then sending the King in the North on an adventure across the continent to gather a resource they don't require a lot of.

Melisandre smiled. "Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more." - Samwell V, ASOS

Sam is sent south with Aemon Targaryen, hunting for narrative purpose.

Aemon dies. Sam is now in possession of Aemon Targaryen's preserved dead body in a cask of rum, because they couldn't burn the body on a ship. Convenient.

Aemon's rambling last words were to be with Daenerys. What do we usually do with dead high nobility? We return them to their ancestral home.

Once he woke up weeping. "The dragon must have three heads," he wailed, "but I am too old and frail to be one of them. I should be with her, showing her the way, but my body has betrayed me." - Samwell IV, AFFC

x

The Targaryens always gave their fallen to the flames. Quhuru Mo would not allow a funeral pyre aboard the Cinnamon Wind, so Aemon's corpse had been stuffed inside a cask of blackbelly rum to preserve it until the ship reached Oldtown. - Samwell IV, ASOS

Samwell meets Archmaster Marwyn at the Citadel. After relaying his story to Marwyn, Marwyn declares he’s off to find Daenerys Targaryen in Meereen, and instructs Sam to stay put. That sounds like a liaison to me.

Remember the Cinnamon Wind captained by Quhuru Mo? Daenerys meets Quhuru Mo, captain of the Cinnamon Wind, in ACOK.

Dany laughed. "And will see more of them one day, I hope. Come to me in King's Landing when I am on my father's throne, and you shall have a great reward." - Daenerys ACOK

The Cinnamon Wind is the ship that carried Samwell, and Aemon to Oldtown. It's the same ship that now carries Marwyn to Daenerys in Meereen. It's all adding up now, isn't it?

Finally, we can safely assume Daenerys is going to fire roast a good chunk of Samwell Tarly's family. Do you think that might hold a bit more weight if those two characters have met and interacted?

My question to you all is the following:

Is it starting to sound like someone other than Jon Snow will be travelling to Dragonstone in the books?

Because I think it's kind of obvious the show stole another character's storyline to force a meeting between two leads that shouldn't have happened.

The end.

Happy to finally get that off my chest.

-> return to menu <-

[aegor-bamfsteel]

Hi there! First of all, I loved your nickname and blog description! Very creative! I just stumbled across a very nice post about Bloodraven and I would like to ask: What do you belive it's Bloodraven's agenda? We know he's not a good person and he has no good intentions with Bran. Do you also belive Bran will end up killing him somehow? I fear Bloodraven will try to harm Bran.

Hi there! Thank you for the compliments about my blog handle and description. It’s always good to know when people appreciate my silly sense of humor :)

(Post being referenced is here.)

I took a long time in answering this because not only am I not great at creating my own theories, I‘m not exactly familiar with all of the theories regarding Bl00draven and where he’s going (although thanks to this ask, I did have the dubious honor of watching Alt+ShiftX’s videos and this video by InsideGeek). From what I can tell from my cursory research, the prevailing view of BR is an “antihero” who manipulates events from behind the scene for what he believes is “the greater good” for the realm; this of course is completely opposite my own view of him an immoral character (we’ve seen what kind of characters murder children, murder surrendering hostages, burn down 1/4 of their city in a humanitarian crisis, neglect vassals in need, deny safe passage and guest right, who kinslay.…for what they believe is right or even just revenge. They are not heroes. They are villains whose plans inevitably fail) who isn’t nearly as intelligent or above emotional manipulation as thought, and prefers to rule visibly than behind the scenes. Some of the theorists have to misinterpret the details to depict him as a hero (attributing Aegor’s encouragement to rebel as rejection by Shiera, not even mentioning Aemon/Naerys, or that Daemon’s sons were children, squishing all the rebellions together to argue killing Aenys was justified…I fast forwarded through most of the rest of the BR biography). From a fan perspective, I can understand—with several GFM considering him a hero or at least a necessary mentor for Bran and Jon—your frustration; that thematic or character parallels seem to get thrown out the window when people discuss BR. I don’t think BR is working to protect the realm considering a deep connection with said realm (although Varys’ connection with the realm is obviously shallow) has never been established (in fact his actions have hurt the realm) nor with its rulers. There’s also GRRM showing that the Blackfyres are not bad people and are even capable of good; for people to claim that BR “protected the realm from the Blackfyre rebels” (thanks AltShift 🙄), it has to be established that the Blackfyre rule would be demonstrably worse than BR’s regime, which was so terrible it turned previous Red supporters (ex: Lord Smallwood) against him. As it is, it’s portrayed as two rival factions of a civil war, like Stannis vs the Lannisters at Blackwater, or Robb Stark vs the Lannisters; Blackfyres are hardly an inhuman omnicidal threat like the Others.

All right, I’ve ranted long enough about what I don’t think BR’s plan is (to train the next greenseer to save the world from the Others). Once again, I’m not the best at speculating, so apologies if this is hard to follow: The immediate goal seems to be to get Bran to lose his connection with his human body/humanity primarily by teaching him how to warg birds. “The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make you strong.” essentially to replace the ghosts of his family with the “darkness” of the weirwood roots (which, as I’ve explained in another meta, are where the blood from human sacrifice enters the tree and allows greenseers to see through them.) This is a good parallel to Arya training to lose her identity and become “No One” as a Faceless Assassin, or even Sansa having to become Alayne Stone for Petyr Baelish.

Even more speculation under the cut.

We know that despite his short time in the cave, Bran is losing track of time and what is reality:

You have to wake, he would tell himself, you have to wake right now, or you'll go dreaming into death. Once or twice he pinched his arm with his fingers, really hard, but the only thing that did was make his arm hurt. In the beginning he had tried to count the days by making note of when he woke and slept, but down here sleeping and waking had a way of melting into one another. Dreams became lessons, lessons became dreams, things happened all at once or not at all. Had he done that or only dreamed it? —Bran III, ADWD

Dreaming into death through too much warging? Sounds a little like Bran is living Haggon’s warning to Varamyr:

Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue. —ADWD Prologue

Alright, so warging into birds isn’t safe. Unlike Varamyr’s shadowcat and snow bear, who went insane when Varamyr bent them to his will, birds will turn the warging against the skinchanger and make them insane, wanting to leave their human flesh behind. And what does BR promise Bran? To teach him to fly. The first thing Bran wargs in that cave? A raven.

Then there’s this promise about how powerful Bran will get:

Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves."

"When?" Bran wanted to know.

"In a year, or three, or ten. That I have not glimpsed. It will come in time, I promise you. But I am tired now, and the trees are calling me...."

Hardly sounds like time is of the essence for Bran to learn this, if BR is allegedly so concerned about an imminent war with the Others. It also sounds like seeing beyond the trees isn’t something BR can do, since he’s still connected to them. And then he immediately changes the subject and stops teaching, claiming he’s tired (a dude who doesn’t seem to eat or sleep). That’s so suspicious it‘s practically a cliche, especially compared with Moqorro to Victarion “I have seen the glory that awaits you” in the same book.

Then there’s this wholesome decor:

"Bones," said Bran. "It's bones." The floor of the passage was littered with the bones of birds and beasts. But there were other bones as well, big ones that must have come from giants and small ones that could have been from children. On either side of them, in niches carved from the stone, skulls looked down on them. Bran saw a bear skull and a wolf skull, half a dozen human skulls and near as many giants. All the rest were small, queerly formed. Children of the forest. The roots had grown in and around and through them, every one. A few had ravens perched atop them, watching them pass with bright black eyes. —Bran II, ADWD

A passage lined with human bones? Just a misunderstood hero

There’s a ward on the cave to prevent dead things from coming in, so everyone was alive when they entered. It seems that at least some of those skulls belonged to greenseers whose flesh has been fully eaten by the weirwood. You’d think that their consciousness would have gone into the trees. But then there’s the ravens atop them, ravens with wargs inside them:

"Someone else was in the raven," he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. "Some girl. I felt her."

"A woman, of those who sing the song of earth," his teacher said. "Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy's flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you."

"Do all the birds have singers in them?"

"All," Lord Brynden said. "It was the singers who taught the First Men to send messages by raven … but in those days, the birds would speak the words...”

I don’t have to tell you that any normal raven that a “long dead” child of the forest warged into probably would’ve also been dead, but she’s still there. So congratulations, there’s another form of quasi-immortality at a price that doesn’t involve the trees. If I had to guess, that’s probably what BR meant by seeing beyond the trees: Being trapped in a raven’s body forever after your human body has rotted away (because you got so addicted to warging you neglected your human life). Okay, so BR wants Bran to lose his connection to humanity. What does he gain out of this?

Well, he gets…Bran’s body to warg into. All of the benefits of warging a human (aside from not being able to walk, although the greenseeing and skinchanging is still there), he can leave the cave and influence events in a second life as Bran Stark, and Bran won’t even put up a fight like Thistle did Varamyr because he’s too occupied as a bird. BR actually seldom manipulated events behind the scenes when he was in power; he made sure that he was at the top of Weeping Ridge, raining down arrows on Daemon Blackfyre and his 12 year old sons; he was Aerys’ Hand of the King and essentially ruled the realm with an authoritarian police state while Aerys was preoccupied by dragon prophecy (seems like this could be a metaphor for BR taking King Bran’s skin and exerting power through him); he improbably survived Maekar’s reign as Hand as well. He purposely created an air of fear and mystery around him to keep his subjects in line, making gory displays out of those who spoke against him. The one time it‘s implied he worked behind the scenes was at Whitewalls, where he glamored himself to look like the ordinary hedge knight Maynard Plumm. So exercising lots of brutal power over the realm, even if he has to wear someone else’s skin, isn’t exactly out of character.

Then there’s Bran warging Hodor, who he promises he won’t hurt but he just wants to be strong for awhile…imagine if the tables were turned somehow and he was the one warged (We’ve never seen what it feels like from that side). And he’d be losing his connection to Summer as well, since Varamyr tears Haggon’s second life from him, and later Summer forces Varamyr as One Eye to make his pack submit; once you submit the warg to your will, you get his animals too. This could be why Ghost as Jon can no longer sense one of the direwolves (“Four remained…and one the white wolf could no longer sense” when there are two dead siblings he knows of, and he knows Nymeria is OK. Something happened to Rickon or Bran’s warg connection that made Ghost no longer recognize the wolf as his sibling).

To summarize this speculation: BR wants to warg into Bran’s body to get back into power, and is using teaching him to warg the ravens and greensee to make him lose his connection to his humanity in order to make this easier. Obviously this is already taking a mental toll on Bran. Now for your other question:

Do you believe Bran will end up killing him somehow? Definitely. I’m not sure of the details (then again, I’m not sure of anything, even what I just wrote) but thematically it makes sense. Sansa will end up killing Petyr Baelish—probably after a trial where his crimes are publicly known—the “evil mentor” who sought to groom her to take power for himself. Arya is definitely going back to Westeros, reclaiming her identity, and it’s possible she destroys the House of Black and White (she already disagrees with their warped sense of “justice”). Bran also has an “evil mentor” who wants to use him for potentially selfish reasons, so it follows that Bran turns the tables on BR (even if indirectly), resulting in his death (the punishment for deserting the Night’s Watch, as meted out by Ned, Arya, and Jon) or even a fate worse than death (living as a “shadow on the soul” of a raven subordinate to Bran?)

“He died weeping and alone when I ripped his second life from him. Varamyr had devoured his heart himself. He taught me much and more, and the last thing I learned from him was the taste of human flesh.” A grisly end for a mentor who taught him to warg. I don’t think Bran would be that vicious as to order Summer to eat him (although Summer has already eaten dead men), but BR reduced to flesh, alone without his powers, no second life waiting for him would be a karmic ending to someone who wanted to grasp far reaching power founded on blood and dehumanization. It’s even a parallel to how BR’s hated half-brother Aegor Rivers died, “defeated and alone, a broken man in an alien land” (The Lost Lord, ADWD).

But again, these are all just guesses about what could happen.

Feel free to keep asking. You’ve been warned about my slow response rate, though!

[goodqueenaly]

What do you think was relationship between Daemon and Daeron's sons were like before the first Blackfyre Rebellion. Daemon being knighted before them probably stunned Baelor and Maekar, but receiving Blackfyre must haved been humiliating for Maekar. And to have Daemon revealed be their uncle certainly didn't help.

It's a very good question, and almost certainly something that will be explored in Fire and Blood Volume 2 (and maybe alluded to in future Tales of Dunk and Egg). We know of extremely little in the way of interaction between the sons of Daeron II and Daemon Waters-then-Blackfyre: Yandel reports that "Prince Baelor ... [won] his famous victory at Princess Daenerys's wedding tourney" in 187 AC by "defeat[ing] Daemon Blackfyre in the final tilt", while Egg notes that Ser Quentyn Ball "taught my father and my uncles how to fight. The Great Bastards too". While Daemon would very likely have been a familiar guest at Daeron II's court - Daemon was granted land near the Blackwater on which to build a castle, and Yandel explains that Daeron "did what he could to keep the Great Bastards close" - it remains to be seen how often he was there (especially following his marriage), and to what extent he interacted with the next generation of princes.

However, what I will note is that I would not assume immediate animosity from Baelor and/or Maekar (and they would I think have the most opinion here, compared to their own brothers) toward Daemon Blackfyre. Indeed, both Baelor and Daemon were noted for their open, charming personalities: Baelor was, according to Yandel, "a man who could win respect with ease and was as open-handed and just as his father", while Daemon (according to GRRM's description of him) wore "a warm smile" and "made friends easily", someone who even managed to stay on good terms with both Bittersteel and Bloodraven. Nor might they have been terribly surprised by Aegon IV revealing that Daemon was his son and bestowing on him a knighthood and the sword Blackfyre (to the extent, at least that Maekar cared, being all of four to eight years old when the event occurred): Aegon IV's careless, self-serving, often cruel generosity was no secret by this point (since this was the same king who had given the Blackwoods Bracken lands as part of a joke and paid a dragon's egg for the right to sex with the daughters of his Butterwell host). It is also worth reminding that there were 12 years between Daeron II's accession and the First Blackfyre Rebellion, years in which Daemon might have appeared as a perfectly chivalrous, perfectly loyal bastardborn relation to the reigning Targaryen king - and so, in other words, not a suspicious or much-disliked individual in the eyes of Baelor and/or Maekar.

So it's possible, and I would say plausible, that the relationship between Daeron's sons and Daemon (before the First Blackfyre Rebellion, obviously) might have been not terribly antagonistic - if not quite fraternal, say, something like a friendly rivalry. They would learn the same martial lessons from the same master-at-arms, compete in the same tournaments, participate in the same royal functions, all, perhaps, shining as the bright young stars of the court. If Daemon got a knighthood at 12, well, Baelor and Maekar earned their knighthoods soon enough (and Baelor was enough of a success at knighthood to unseat Daemon in that wedding tilt, undermining at least in that moment any thought of Daemon as the superior knight). If Daemon had been granted Blackfyre by the late king, well, Maekar certainly seems to have told himself (and subsequently Egg) that "Daemon was a swordsman, and Daeron never was", and that to give the sword to Daeron would have been to "give a horse to a man who cannot ride"; he and Baelor may have simply felt that the gift was no more than a reflection on both Daemon's martial prowess and Aegon the Unworthy's follies (a point perhaps underlined when Daeron II gave Bloodraven Dark Sister). If Daemon had been recognized as the late king's son and legitimized, well, Baelor and Maekar may well have been sure of their places as sons of the reigning king, ahead of even a legitimized bastard in the succession.

In turn, I think such a relationship underlines GRRM's favorite theme, the human heart in conflict with itself. How much richer and more painful a story might it be to have Baelor and Maekar genuinely like Daemon Blackfyre, to have them treat him with friendship and warmth, and then to have to go to war against him and ultimately try to bring him down (and succeed in doing so)? How might they have felt by such a turn of events - disappointed and hurt that so talented and apparently chivalrous a knight had turned against them and their father, confused as to how he could have been led astray by (so they might have thought or hoped) "false friends and evil counselors" (to borrow a turn of phrase from the Lords Declarant), angry at his treason, sad at the circumstances that forced them to war against him and eventually kill him (or, rather, see him killed by Bloodraven)? Just as I think it adds much depth and richness to the story of Bloodraven to have Daemon be that "brother I loved" to whom he alludes in ADWD, so I think it would be very interesting to see Baelor and Maekar have a friendly relationship with Daemon turned antagonistic in the First Blackfyre Rebellion.