#asoiaf dragon dreaming

[horizon-verizon]

Can you explain the difference between Dragondreams and Greensight?

@zeciex

Both are hereditary prophetic seer abilities where the seer is unconcious or semiconscious as they recieve visions of what. Both often and almost always come in metaphorical an symbolic imagery.

One is inherited from First Men/children of the forest and wargs (those who have soul-transport into another living creature, almost always a nonhuman animal and control them) may or may not have this ability as well--greensight. The other is inherited from Valyrian bonds with dragons cultivated similarly to how greensight was amongst Pre-Conquest northern Westereosi and freefolk over the course of hundreds of years--dragon dreams.

Unlike greensight, dragon dreams often are about or have dragons but don't have to. We don't know for sure if one can arrange themselves to have a dream/vision or try to contro such, but it appears not for either ability. You could say they are the same ability given different names...but as I mentioned, they developed differently in different contexts and one has more dragons in them than the other, and i theorize it's bc dragon dreaming, more than green sight, is meant or has developed to focus more on those with Valyrian dragonriders' dragon-riding blood to guide them and "theirs" on how to maintain or follow up on those instincts and intuition built from the dragon bond. to guide them there. Greensight may have been developed for or shared with humans from the children to use against the Others and protect them (and not necessarily the Andals bc those guys hadn't appeared yet) like how dragon dreams protect the Valyrian dragonlords/riders.

It's quite clearly proof of how Bran and Dany are the magical heart of the series and parallel each other in this way.

[visenyaism]

all of the suspiciously blonde dragonseed peasants in flea bottom inheriting the haunting prophetic targaryen dragon dreams of the long night and the comet and the death and magical rebirth of the dragons reverberating back from Dany’s miracle but having literally no context for what’s happening so instead of committing summerhall about it they’re just like. ugh had the dream where the bald girl walked out of the fire again🙄 what’s the point

[pigeon-princess]

How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? A thousand eyes, and one. 

[moondostj]

“beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time.” / “he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. in his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind.” / “you saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath.” / “the slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore.”

— george r.r martin

[ladystoneboobs]

idt we talk enough about how a song of ice and fire is also the song of incest and cannibalism. i mean, sure, obviously both of those subjects are noted as present, but the saga feels much more known for its incest, which idt is fair or accurate to the later materiel. iirc, jaime fucking cersei next to their dead firstborn is the last instance of onpage incest happening in present tl, and after that it's all about the cannibals, baby.

(disclaimer: cw/tw sa, cw/tw rape, and i'm not counting cousincest as that's normal in-world even for non-targaryens and also still legal in many places in our world today, nor counting the faux-incestuous freudian mess that is littlefinger/alayne(sansa)/sweetrobin, nor any dark humor jokes and/or unfulfilled threats wrt forced cannibalism)

in fact pretty much all the active incest during the present tl happens in those first 3 books:

the twincest as a major plot point ofc, kicking action off when bran saw them fucking in a tower

and viserys creeping on dany and twisting her nipple

tyrion relating his backstory to bronn wherein he and tysha were both raped by proxy by his father, tywin (tho tyrion does not use that terminology)

craster still being alive to rape and impregnate his own daughters (resulting in dozens of forced incestuous relationships)

and theon unknowingly groping his own sister while she (knowingly) groped him in return

jaime's early pov recalled how he shut up cersei with kissing when they fought after bran refused to die

bella of stoney sept trying and failing to seduce gendry who is (unbeknownst to them both) her half-brother as both were sired by robert baratheon (only example in these 3 books where incest was averted before any sexual activity or incestuous contact occurred)

the aforementioned sept twincest next to joffrey's corpse

tyrion learning from oberyn about cersei twisting his penis when he was a baby

cersei's failed attempt to seduce jaime in wst, pulling out his dick for either a bj or hj until her talk of tyrion's death made him lose his boner

while incest is not exactly absent from the text after that, it seems to exist in the feastdance only in hypotheticals or past memories:

aeron's trauma flashbacks of his (implied only in published text) csa by euron

jaime still feeling lust when seeing cersei nude

and her fond reminiscing about them fucking behind robert's back/brief dream of them as a married couple before her walk of shame

victarion misinterpreting asha's offer of partnership as a marriage proposal and suddenly looking at his niece in a new way with "his manhood beginning to stiffen"

jaime's recollection of fucking cersei at darry next to robert as he was passed out drunk before cersei sent him to hunt arya (which would have happened back in agot and the point of this scene is more his failed hunt for a child just to make cersei happy)

arianne's "uneasy" memory of a past fantasy about being seduced by a man whose description is suspiciously similar to her late uncle oberyn

the aborted marital match of aegon/young griff to his purported aunt dany

illyrio saying (the now dead) viserys tried to rape dany the night before her wedding to drogo (another event from agot concerning a guy we already knew was into incest)

and tyrion once saying he wanted to rape as well as murder cersei

conversely, the cannibalism in the earlier books is most often only unproven hypotheticals alluded to as possible cannibalism:

old nan saying the others fed their dead servants the flesh of human children (which we have not yet seen with any wights so far, whether or not one counts walking undead eating human flesh as straight-up cannibalism)

the mystery meat in flea bottom's bowls o' brown which may or may not contain symon silver tongue after tyrion had him killed

renly's recollection that cressen kept stannis from catapulting their old master-at-arms by saying they may need to eat him later (which did not come to pass thanks to davos)

joffrey telling his people to eat their own dead (with no way of knowing if any actually did)

lady hornwood eating her own fingers

the mentions of the ice river clans being the cannibals beyond the wall (who are def not among the free folk jon snow gets to know onpage, making it just background detail)

bran's (possibly mythical) story of the rat cook

and biter chewing on people he attacked and other corpses (which seems to be just a side hobby connected to his killing method moreso constituting a snack than a full meal from a person butchered for meat. this tendancy of his is just background detail in acok, with biter chewing a corpse in the background after the weasel soup operation, and the hindsight implication that it could well have been him rather than dogs or wolves who had "been at" the corpses after the skirmish where yoren was killed)

while the feastdance feels much more in your face with cannibalism, having not only more total mentions of the practice but also more confirmed, actual cannibalism (as opposed to the ambiguity of each and every bowl o' brown), for those who know how to look at the evidence:

jaime learned that his father's mad dog aka the mountain fed parts of vargo hoat to all his prisoners (including vargo himself) after recapturing harrenhal

jaime then recalled tales of danelle lothston presiding over feasts of human flesh in harrenhal

and euron bragged about pulling a similar trick with the warlocks he captured (the only twist being that the warlocks knew what they were being forced to eat, which vargo hoat and wylis manderly etc at harrenhal likely didn't)

the elder brother of the quiet isle told of biter eating all of a woman's breasts at saltpans after she'd been raped and killed (prob the largest amount of flesh biter's confirmed to have eaten from one corpse)

bran and co. ate "pig" supplied by coldhands which had to be long pig aka human meat

brienne felt her face being eaten by biter in her own pov (which is so much worse than him chewing others in the background of the weasel soup scene)

theon was told that two ironmen at moat cailin were found eating their dead comrades

the astapori were said to eat their own dead while under siege by the yunkishmen

and then were said to do so again in refugee camps outside meereen

sam and davos sailed past skagos and each remembered stories of skagosi cannibalism

khrazz the pit fighter cut the hearts from his defeated foes to eat them

cotter pyke's last letter to jon snow said the wildlings were eating their own dead at hardhome

4 of stannis's men were executed by burning for butchering and eating dead men (with asha wondering how many others had done so without being caught)

and ofc the frey pies with wyman manderly having his 3 former guests killed and serving their meat to their own kin and the other guests at ramsay's wedding while eating some himself too

two of these examples (involving gregor clegane and euron greyjoy) must have actually happened during the course of asos, but grrm chose to give us the gruesome details in affc, which was brand new information about men we already knew were villains but did not know were into that fucked-up shit specifically, unlike being reminded that agot-era jaime and viserys wanted to fuck their sisters. it's as if after craster was killed and jc effectively broke up grrm decided cannibalism was the taboo subject matter he would fill the later books with, so we'd really feel the increasing danger of starvation-induced cannibalism with winter's arrival (and have no trouble believing rickon's new home of skagos really is a cannibal island). however, in-universe it feels like there's some sort of environmental balance connection so that the decrease in one formerly common behaviorial abomination just allows another such abomination to fill in the gap with a sharp increase in activity, like deer overpopulation resulting from lack of predators as if all the active incest somehow stopped more people from eating themselves or other people.

[jon-sedai]

Thinking about how one of the most important motifs in Dany’s childhood memories is a seemingly nonexistent lemon tree. Or rather, a tree that her memory insists exists where it naturally shouldn’t. And thinking about how, in her last Dance chapter, at a pivotal moment of development, she reflects that while she wanted to plant trees and watch them grow, dragons don’t plant trees. But how funny is it that her narrative ancestor, Princess Daenerys of Dorne, left behind a legacy of planting an entire garden of trees — a place where children of all backgrounds could come and bloom within it? And then thinking back to Dany’s moment in Clash, when she comes upon a barren wasteland. A place that, despite its harshness, has many types of trees growing within it. For a brief moment, she considers staying to nurture and watch it bloom.

Sure, her childhood memories are false. But the lesson isn’t that she doesn’t belong anywhere because she dreams of lemon trees in Braavos, where they don’t exist. Maybe the lesson is that she can plant these nonexistent trees elsewhere.

Lemon trees don’t grow in Braavos, but Dany can grow them wherever she chooses to plant them. And this is something she will have to understand when the Long Night comes. Winter means death. It means the trees will wither and no new ones will grow to replace them. But Dany is the mother of dragons, and her life is tied to the very process of life and death, destruction and renewal. The Long Night will be marked by dead trees that bear no fruit. But that’s okay. Because Dany has spent her entire arc dreaming of trees where there aren’t any. And isn’t THAT the dream of spring?

[raven-6-10]

The Dreamers in House Targaryen

So, I finally did the Thing I once promised to do.

Below the cut is the complete famiily tree of House Targaryen, based on all the information currently available in all the published books. I also included the Blackfyre branch for the sake of completness.

Included a reference for what means what on this absolute monster of family tree. Also, for the sake of clarity, I did not include spouses unless they were also Targaryens or a child of a Targaryen.

House Targaryen pre-Conquest surprisingly includes only two confirmed Dreamers and none who could be suspected of having the gift.

Or maybe it's just the lack of the data (*glares at Valaena's mother*)

Daenys the Dreamer: self-explanatory. The most famous of Targaryen Dreamers and the one everyone wants to be like.

Aegon the Dragon: honestly, no surprise there. GRRM confirmed that Aegon's Dream from the show is also canon to the books. But even if he didn't, I would have marked Aegon as a suspected Dreamer - it was long theoretised that Targs came to Westeros because of a prophecy about the Doom of Men, so I could see the Conquest being kicked off by a Dream.

Now this is were it gets Interesting!

Alysanne Targaryen: there is an excelent analysis of Fire & Blood chapters on why Alysanne could be a Dreamer. One that apparently was missed by her relatives.

Viserys I Targaryen: so the thing is. Book!Viserys is never hinted at to have Dragon Dreams. Even in the show, he only had the one dream (of dubious authenticity). Hence, marked as show!only Dreamer.

The Greens!

Helaena Targaryen: Honestly, same deal as Viserys. Book!Helaena is never even hinted at as somebody who might be a Dreamer. So she's in blue and not red.

Now, Aemond's potential line might have produced something. If Alys actually had a living child. And if that line survived more than a generation.

Unfortunately, Lack of Data.

Honestly, once again we are dealing with Lack of Data on the Blacks and their descendants. Fire & Blood only takes us to the end of Regency, which is when Aegon the Younger turns sixteen. We have almost nothing after that as WoIaF is much less detailed on the family doings.

So if there was somebody with the gift, the fact did not make it into history.

Aegon IV's many, many bastards!

(even if some only suspected)

(or you know, not actually his)

Brynden Rivers (The Bloodraven): the only one with magical shit going on, and his is explicitly of the First Men variety.

(If we ever get Fire & Blood 2, I have some hopes for Shiera.)

The Blackfyres!

Daemon II Blackfyre: very explicit confirmation in The Mystery Knight, as he speaks of several Dreams he had over his life that came true.

Also, it's a colossal mess of a family tree with multiple branches having an uncertain fate. *eyeroll* And fans wonder why nobody believes in Varys' story about Young Griff.

Moving back to the main family, we finally get some confirmations that yes, Targs still produce Dreamers. Granted that seems to be confined to Maekar's branch

Daeron the Drunken: confirmed in The Hedge Knight and about as explicit as it gets.

Aemon Targaryen: as confirmed as it can be when we don't have his pov. But he says several things during aFfC that in hindsight are rather prophetic.

And here are our heroes!

Daenerys Stormborn: very explicitly has Dragon Dreams and waking visions at various points in the books.

Jon Snow: technically, we still don't have the confirmation that he's actually a Targaryen. But Jon does have a dream about figting Others at the Wall with a sword of fire, that is very similar to the Dream Dany has about fighting warriors of ice at the Trident.

Rhaegar Targaryen: marked him as a suspected Dreamer for the simple fact that it is hinted that he could see Dany when she was having her visions in House of the Undying.

[gyarueranana]

Parallels between Buffy from 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer' and Daenerys from the 'A Song of Ice and Fire' series

[weavingdragonsofthread]

The Dreamers of House Targaryen

Daenys The Dreamer, Aegon The Conqueror, King Viserys, Queen Helaena Targaryen, Daeron The Drunken, Deamon Blackfyre ii, Maester Aemon, Daenerys Targaryen.

Angels in America by Tony Kushner//illustration from ‘Game of thrones Histories’//Quote from HOTD 1X10// Cassandra by Anthony Frederick Augustus Sandys//Fire and Blood by George R.R Martin// The Last Days of Pompeii by Karl Bryullov// Quote from HOTD 1X02//Illustration from The Histories of Westeros depicting Aegons Conquest// HOTD 1X02//Cassandra By Frederick Sandys//HOTD 2X01//HOTD 1X09// HOTD 1X03// Quote from HOTD 1X03// Anne Carson, “Cassandra Float Can”//The Desperate Man by Gustave Courbet//Hélène Cixous, The Book of Promethea//Tales of Dunk and Egg by George R.R Martin//Lament for the Dead by Eyeteapot//Tales of Dunk and Egg by George R.R Martin//A Feast for Crows by George R.R Martin// A Game of Thrones the illustrated edition// GOT 1X10// Mary Magdalene in the Cave by Hugues Merle//Whiskytown Jacksonville Skyline//A Storm of Swords by George R.R Martin// GOT 7X06//Quote from GOT 2X06//HOTD 1X02//Arthur Rimbaud

[15-lizards]

Westerosi-sonas are so funny like. I’m gonna input myself into the most crapsack world ever. I’m gonna reform the canon so I can imagine myself as the minor lord of a shitty keep. This is Harlan he got sent to the wall for sodomy and lost all of his toes to frostbite. Here’s Aenon he was murdered like saint Sebastian during the blackfyre rebellions. Wynnafred is a repressed lesbian married into the riverlands ofc and will fall in love with a tomboy daughter of a high lord before dying of Woman in ASOIAF Disease

[thomascromwelll]

Daemon + Aegon the Conqueror's dream House of the Dragon | S01E10 — S02E08

[lqynxv]

being a dragon dreamer seems like so much effort imagine being a targaryen and having this weight on your shoulders of everything to come but you don’t actually know what it means all whilst your brother and sister are having sex in the room next door

[drakaripykiros130ac]

“Poor Helaena…to lose a child like that”

“Poor Aegon…a father’s rage is justified”

Not hearing a whole lot of poor Rhaenyra who lost her father, her son, her throne and her unborn daughter in a short span of time.

According to TG stans, a child’s death is absolutely horrible (unless it’s Rhaenyra’s. If it’s Rhaenyra’s child, it’s fun, let’s celebrate).

I fail to see why Helaena’s grief is more important than Rhaenyra’s. She lost one son, said “bye bye world” and shut down (and I don’t see anyone pointing fingers at her and calling her useless in this war even though she was. She had a dragon she could use, but chose to remain locked up in her room and in depression).

Rhaenyra lost a whole lot more, and she had to stay on her feet and fight to take back what rightfully belongs to her.

Why is Jaehaerys’ death more tragic than Lucerys’?

Lucerys was murdered in cold blood, just like that boy of Helaena’s who’s barely relevant throughout the whole story.

Lucerys was a boy too.

Now there’s the question of who shed first blood.

The Greens did.

Actions call for reactions, and this is war.

Daemon wanted Aegon the Usurper to lose a son, just like the Greens forced Rhaenyra to suffer the loss of one of her own. He called for retribution. A life for a life. He could have arranged to have everyone in that tower killed that night. He could have demanded Aegon’s daughter, Jaehaera, be killed in exchange for the life of the daughter the Greens made him lose (Visenya). But he didn’t.

I’ve seen comments cheering on Aegon for wanting vengeance for his dead son, but apparently Rhaenyra is not allowed to demand retribution for the death of hers.

Misogyny runs high in the 21st century, doesn’t it? A woman who is not perfect is a monster, and a man with vices is just “misunderstood”.

And then you all have the nerve to point fingers at people who don’t care about the consequences of B&C. No, I don’t care that Aegon’s child is going to be murdered. Because I didn’t see that sympathy from stans when Lucerys was murdered. All I saw were jokes made at a child ripped apart by the biggest and most dangerous dragon alive because her rider is a twisted one-eyed psychopath.

The Blacks are entitled to vengeance.

Lucerys’ death is on Aemond’s head. And so is Jaehaerys’. He’s 100% responsible. If anyone is to blame for B&C, it’s Aemond the Kinslayer.

[pigeon-princess]

Can a Targaryen not enjoy eating a live fish from the river without judgement?

[puppeteerpoet]

The Targaryen hive mind in rhaegar’s dreams telling him to kidnap a 16 year old and get her pregnant for the sake of the prophecy

[markhenzel]

Two unpopular opinion about some things in ASOIAF:

1. I felt like GRRM making Jaehaerys a bad father kinda felt force. I get that in GRRM writing, there's no perfect people. It's not a black and white world. But this felt too force. It's like shoving to my face and say "Jaehaerys is a good king but not a good father because he's isn't all good." out loud.

For example if you made comparison between Aegon The Conqueror and Jaehaerys. Aegon is a conqueror who caused million to die but in same time you could argue that had Aegon not do his conquest, people like Harren The Black or Argallic The Arrogant who still enslave and push people below. That's where the philosophical questions came in whether he's a hero or tyrant. For Jaehaerys, it's hard to say because again, the whole thing in his family stuff just felt forced and dragging.

I am not gonna be surprised if GRRM made Daeron The Good (the king who fix the realms after Aegon The Unworthy reign) turns out to be some abuser or loser or something.

2. I really prefer the ending for Dance of Dragons event ended with Aegon III with Jaehaera instead of Daenaera. I don't know how to explain it but kill off Jaehaera kinda felt it's for shock value. The descendant from Team Black and last descendant from Team Green married and ended the war makes more sense. The fact that the line still ended with Baelor makes it even worse. What's the point then...

So you have Aegon from team Black and Jaehaera from team Green who both see these war until it's end. They got married, Jaehaera died, no children, Aegon married Daenaera, have five kids, Aegon died, Daeron died and Baelor died and the line continues with Viserys II? None of Aegon III or Jaehaera continue?