#armand is alice theory is interesting

[botticellibabyy]

alice molloy ❦

[danlous]

"Armand is Alice and Daniel's wife/s and kids aren't real" has become a popular fan theory (even Luke Brandon Field said he liked it!) but i'd be surprised if it was right. I think it's definitely possible that Devil's Minion will be adapted in the show (though probably not exactly like in the books), but i personally think this whole imaginary family thing would be a poor way to handle the storyline for a variety of reasons. I think a twist like that would probably come across convoluted and (as Daniel might say) like something from a telenovela.

We see children's toys in Daniel's house and he's public figure who many people know with an autobiography and everything. Creating decades worth of false memories for Daniel and somehow also maintaining that imaginary life story for decades wouldn't be enough, Armand or whoever did it would also realistically have to have an absurd level of control over the physical world, public records and many other people's minds to sustain an illusion like that. I also frankly think it would be difficult to avoid having some sexist and biphobic undertones to the idea that Daniel's relationships with women were unreal and meaningless and only his relationship with a man matters.

However, the most important reason why i think Daniel's wives and children should be real is that they make him a richer, more nuanced character and are actually central to understanding him and his motives. He has lived a full and complex life that has been influenced and to some extent defined by his encounters with vampires, but those vampires still weren't his whole life. I think it's more interesting to see Daniel's human life and his relationship with Armand and Louis as something connected and overlapping that both affect each other. We actually learn quite a lot about Daniel from what he says about his partners and children.

This scene - as well as how Alice in general is discussed - reminded many people of how Daniel in the books talks about Armand, such as this famous passage:

Parallels between Daniel's relationships with Alice and Armand in the books are obvious but i think they're just that, parallels. Both the sweet little scene where Daniel is talking about Alice's eyebrows and the book scene where he's talking about loving Armand not despite but because he's a monster reflect in different ways who Daniel is as a person; he feels drawn to unconventional and strange and sees beauty where others might not. He ended up in this situation with vampires too because he wanted to interview people who're rejected by the society.

If Daniel already had some sort of relationship with Armand in the past it makes sense that it would be associated with Alice in his mind. There may be an overlap between the timelines of those relationships. A memory of Armand rises when Daniel is reminded of Alice rejecting his marriage proposal, in the books Armand rejected his wish to be turn him into a vampire, which would've been something akin to marriage. I think Alice being real is much more compelling for Armand's character too, with Armand expressing surprising understanding and sympathy toward Daniel's wife rather than just speaking about his own experience through an imaginary woman.

Completely putting aside Devil's Minion and is it a thing in the show or not, i think Daniel's family is particularly important to Louis' and Daniel's relationship. Something that hasn't technically been explicitly said but to me seems obvious is that Louis and Daniel strongly relate to each other as fathers. Many scenes where we see Louis and Daniel show vulnerability in front of each other have something to do with their partners and children. In 1.02 as one of the earliest examples of this Louis replicates the dessert Daniel had with Alice, trying to connect with him and his humanity through it, Daniel shares personal memory and they eat together in companionable silence.

I would argue that Claudia, her memory, and Louis' relationship with her is the heart of the story in these first two seasons. Claudia entering the story in 1.04 marks the shift in the interview and Daniel's approach; he becomes both more combative and more emotionally invested. He has a strong reaction to reading Claudia's diaries, and it's not difficult for any parent to guess that he's also imagining her own daughters in similar circumstances to Claudia.

I think this conversation at the end of the episode (alongside Louis' speech to Daniel in San Francisco and them remembering it in 2.05) is the most important scene between Louis and Daniel. They share the understanding what it feels like to have children and love them so much you don't even have words for it, but still fail them. It's not a coincidence that in the original interview in San Francisco what leads to Louis attacking Daniel is Louis telling the story of Claudia leaving alone and Louis going back to Lestat, and Daniel acting dismissively and clearly not understanding why this is so painful memory to Louis. Daniel was young, stupid and high - and he didn't have children yet. Daniel now wouldn't act like that when hearing this story, and he doesn't in 1.06 when hearing it again. And notably when Louis says that he would now agree to turn Daniel, Daniel says he doesn't want it anymore and specifically mentions his daughters as one of the reasons. Having to watch your children die before you is the most horrifying thing in the world. It's something Louis had to go through and Daniel wishes he never has to, even if vampirism still intrigues him.

Daniel realizes quickly that it all comes down to Louis' feelings of guilt and shame about failing Claudia and his inability to protect her, because he has similar feelings about his own daughters. Louis' story unravels in s1 finale because Daniel recognizes that Louis' more palatable narrative around what happened with Claudia isn't fully true. Daniel carefully read through Claudia's diaries and tried to learn to understand her, and he positions himself as someone who's trying to defend her integrity and reveal the injustice that was done to her. This is again about Daniel's own children as much as it's about Claudia. He knows that he's a bad father, his daughters don't talk to him anymore and it's implied that he neglected them when focusing on other things that interested him more. When Daniel defends Claudia he's on some level trying to rectify his own mistakes and when he calls Louis out he's also voicing his own self-loathing.

Eric Bogosian remarked that the scene in 2.01 where Louis cries and thanks for Daniel for helping him to remember that Claudia could dream is another shift in their dynamic. Daniel looks at Louis with genuine concern, and after that he tones down his usual sarcasm and jabs significantly. Daniel, again, can sympathize with how important this is for Louis. There's a new sincerity and empathy in their interactions. Sometimes the audience forgets that this story is ultimately about Claudia, but Daniel hasn't forgotten it since he first realized it. They're trying to understand together what happened to Louis' child and everything that led to it. I think if Daniel wasn't a father he would've acted differently, and Louis wouldn't have trusted him in the same way either and been able to share his and Claudia's story. I think this shared sorrow, love and guilt they feel as fathers is one of the most crucial parts of their connection.

[loumandforyou]

another interesting little thing: Armand's reaction to Daniel telling him he didn't forgive him for erasing his memory

He didn't have to mention the drugs. That little pause. How his expression changes from before.

This just feeds my theory that Armand erased Daniel's memories because when they broke up because Daniel was killing himself with the drugs, and couldn't stay away from Armand because of his addiction to his blood. Maybe Daniel went to him a couple of times high (bonus if he was already sort of with Alice) and Armand tried, begrudgingly to take care of him. Promises of getting clean and all that. Until one day...

As @failvillain said on my gifset

[nalyra-dreaming]

Hi . I was wondering if the Alice Armand theory is correct . Do you think the kids are real or not . Because we really don't have any proof of them other than two toys in the closet .

I think Daniel definitely has kids. And I think they're grown, which would explain why there's so little of their stuff in his apartment.

I do think the majority of his life is real. I even think Alice is real.

However, I think some of the memories Daniel thought pertained to Alice actually belong to the time he spent with Armand. Because, just from the logical perspective - wouldn't it be much easier to change existing memories than create wholly new ones?

There are hints already in s1, with the "odyssey of recollection" - Daniel's ex wife reminds him he never owned a Buick. Didn't he? Or did he while he was running from / traveling with Armand? Things like this.

I do think Daniel was married twice, divorced twice, and has two daughters, because he is a journalist in the public space, and these facts can easily be checked.

But I don't think all his memories of his first wife are actually of her.

It will be interesting to see what they will do with the daughters, because daughters and sisters are important in the VC. I doubt that they will be only staffage.

[danieldemolloy]

I would love to write some Devils Minion Era Daniel and Armand from Interview with the Vampire. I prefer to play Danny.

There’s a lot I would love to explore, with the hunt through various cities and years. I’d also enjoy delving into things like memory manipulation, the canonical themes of addiction and internalised homophobia and I would also really enjoy exploring Armand’s desperation to be chosen by someone, to be the love someone craves even if he then would never actually believe it to be true.

I am open to writing as other characters, such as Louis and original characters that are encountered during these years. I am happy to explore the Alice is Armand theory as well, if that’s anyone’s cup of tea.

I would love this to be a long-term joint effort in which we put these two through the mill. I’m 21+ and write multi-paragraph to novella style with a heavy preference for discord. I have zero limits and I am open to anything and everything. I’m also a regular responder and would ideally like the same.

Give this a like (or preferably DM me!) and I will reach out to you so we can collaborate! Please don’t like if you aren’t interested in writing together ❤️

[nightcolorz]

spoilers for iwtv s2 ep2 but omg,,

I definitely believe the Alice is armand theory (or more specifically Daniel’s memories with alice have been crossed with his memories of armand) bcus dude Omg, first of all Louis mocking Daniel about his failure with Alice and it immediately cuts to Daniel getting sudden flashes of buried armand memories. the way Armand was looking at him, the longing sadness, the mediating, armand trying to stop louis from hurting daniel. Armand telling Daniel “alices” thoughts when she rejected him😭😭😭 not mockingly as Louis is doing but comfortingly?? Bittersweetly?? Full of grief?? “She wanted to say yes (to daniels marriage proposal) but she didn’t trust you, you didn’t give her a reason to.” Like daniel’s loosing of Alice when he proposes to her and she rejects him is definitely imo some sort of metaphor/equivalency for Daniel begging armand to turn him and armand rejecting him. Not even to mention how it’s all tied to Paris, her name is literally Alice 😭.Armand’s reasoning is so interesting to me, u didn’t give her a reason to trust you. Dude. Then louis telling Daniel they can tell him how Alice feels about him now and giving a little knowing look to armand 😭 Jesus. I’m wrecked

[the-quiet-youve-been-longing-for]

Saw this post about Daniel's mind being against mind reading due to frequent blood sharing while he was with Armand.

Interesting fact is also that he seems to have a sort of "shield" against mind reading or like a way to protect himself at the sake of his mental health, or at least that's how I interpreted it. It happens two times, and in those two times Daniel's mind retaliates so much with Armand's flashbacks (even if those don't have anything to do with Armand in the conversation) that his Parkinsons triggers and he has physical pain

First one is of course 2x02, Armand says "it's Alice, not Claudia", Louis goes with the brasserie memory but it's not in depth, it's a jest just like how he skimmed to see about how much Rashid weighted and how he tasted. It's harmless, so it doesn't do anything. Second time is brutal, it's a painful memory, he doesn't want this brought to light, and you can see how much it hurts. Cue Armand flashbacks as soon as it starts, which causes him to spiral and break under Louis's onslaught.

Second one is 2x04. Oh boy. First thing is at the "are you schizophrenic, Louis?" scene. Armand says Daniel's name, cue a flashback. Uh oh. He continues, slips up with the fire mention and you see Armand lean forward as if to see what is that about the fire, to see his reaction or read his mind I'm not sure, more flashbacks, audio as well now, just like before. This causes some confusion, but he manages to save his ass by moving the conversation back to Claudia.

Some time later, we get to the fight about the Steins. And it's... Weird as hell, but as soon as Armand says "Rashid must have confused them" and looks at Daniel. Cue flashback numero dos, so much in fact that he can't even bring himself to understand what Louis is saying and asks for aspirin, pausing the session.

Note that this is the ONLY time he asks to pause the interview himself. The only other time is when he offers Louis to take a break because he starts crying in 2x01. Other than that, he's vigilant and alert enough to never stop, it's his drug after all, why would he?

There are still weird holes in this theory, like for example why were the more violent flashbacks during the photo scene and not when talking about the fire? But that's what I managed to connect together so far

[avelera]

i agree with you and I don't like the Armand is alice theory. since Claudia died, we have 0 main female characters. This theory seems like an attempt to erase a minor female character who had an impact on a main male character life. Sometimes I felt like the iwtv fandom is hostile toward female characters. It also remind the fan that Daniel wasn't a good husband or a good father and a very flaw character who hurt a lot of women, not in a criminal way but he was surely an asshole. In fanfic, he doesn't have any flaw and is often victimize. The fan wants him to be a Marius hater, when himself forced a girl to put a paperbag on her head to have sex with her. She cried a lot but he didn't stop. I don't think he's aware of concept like "consent" or sexual assault. He was mostly a cheater with his wifes and an absent father to his daughters. And I feel like the fandom can't accept this so 1) they erased Alice 2) they made all his life about Armand when it wasn't. Because no matter how his life was, how he was a sexist asshole, it was the life he chose and Armand was a part of it but not the center. I like him, but not everything is about Armand and he's not Armand's savior or Armand's redemption or Armand's soulmate.

I think there's a lot of valid points in what you're saying!

I think fandoms in general have a tendency to polish off the rough edges of their favorite characters and Daniel is absolutely going to get this treatment by the fandom. It's pretty much inevitable but I don't blame people for doing it in their fanworks, that's just how fandom works.

I completely agree that a tendency to make Daniel's whole life about Armand would be a disservice to the character, especially Old Man Daniel who has lived a rich life on his own and if he had a relationship with Armand in the 70s, he's had half a lifetime or more since to live completely independent of Armand (perhaps thanks to Armand wiping his memory of that relationship, perhaps not). Regardless, it's a pretty common angle for fandom to take, especially when shipping two characters. The focus will be on the relationship and so the focus will be on making that relationship central to who they are often to the exclusion of all else. Certainly as maker/fledgling, these two ARE going to mean a lot to each other going forward too. But yeah I agree that erasing Alice or making Alice Armand is a denial of the long, independent and complicated life that Daniel lived completely without Armand.

But I also completely agree that Daniel was, canonically, not a good husband or father. He admits it himself. It's at the absolute core of who IWTV Show Daniel is. It's at the heart of his acerbic personality, his regrets, his terror at the thought of dying because he will be dying alone and unloved, and his relentless pursuit of the truth with Louis and Armand because he thinks the only thing valuable about himself that he has left is his skills as an investigative reporter. He has by his own admission fucked up every personal relationship he's had by being a complete asshole but that asshole flaw in his personal life was a virtue in his professional life. He is a relentless investigative reporter in part because he's a complete asshole. He wasn't able to shut that part of himself down when he was with his loved ones and that's why he has no one he loves in his life who wants to be around him, but he is still an award winning journalist. It's to me what makes him an interesting and complex character. If you polish that away, if you make him nice rather than a flawed man who is trying to do better (until maybe he's not, once he's a vampire) I'm not even sure why you'd be writing his character instead of an OC, it is what makes Bogosian's Daniel unique even as compared to the book version of the character.

The whole point of IWTV is that these characters are complex and they are ugly, they are monsters and they are human, and as Santiago says we should remember that when we put them on trial. This is a central theme of the show. This theme extends to Daniel too. Claudia is a victim of her horrible circumstances but she's also a bonafide serial killer of thousands of innocents. Louis is a soulful and tormented person who also murdered his way through the San Francisco gay population in the 70s as viciously as any epidemic. Madeleine was a collaborator during WWII and as much as we might debate how much of a choice she had in being one if she wanted to survive in WWII Paris, she was also completely unbothered by the idea of becoming a serial killer in order to gain immortality.

We are being asked by the show to hold the dichotomy of these characters in our heads, we are being asked to love them as humans and be horrified by them as monsters at the same time. Anyone who tries to polish the rough edges off these characters by having them be moral paragons is, I think, entirely missing the point of the gothic moral complexity of the show. No one is innocent, not even the interviewer. Daniel was an asshole to his loved ones. We can still feel for the fact he's afraid of dying, either to his chronic illness or to the vampires he's interviewing. That isn't something to be avoided by the viewer, that is the exact complexity we're being asked to engage with. Then again, fanworks serve a different purpose so people should do whatever they want with the characters there, this is just to say that the core story that I think is what attracted many people to IWTV is about moral complexity and it's a shame when that element is removed, at least when it comes to my personal enjoyment as I can't speak for others.

There are a couple things I disagree with though with what you said or want to address with a bit more nuance below the cut.

I don't think the fandom is hostile to women as such. I admit, I don't really know it well enough to say one way or another, but I'm always hesitant to apply such a sweeping criticism of a large group of people. M/M slash fandoms tend to focus on the male characters, it's just how it is. But IWTV gave us a beautiful f/f relationship with Claudia and Madeleine and I see a lot of appreciation of them and their relationship on my dash. Fact is, there's just not as many female characters as male characters in the Vampire Chronicles by at least 2:1. So naturally the fandom will focus on the male (and more importantly surviving) characters.

As for Marius, I don't think we have an answer about him yet within the show. What we have is that Louis called Marius Armand's pimp and we have show Armand telling us that Marius was his whole world but also that Marius prostituted him to visiting friends.

That is completely contrary to what we learn about Marius in "The Vampire Lestat" and "The Vampire Armand" books. If it's true, it's an invention of the show. Marius in the books specifically allowed Armand total autonomy in his sex life after he freed him from the brothel because he wanted Armand to have a full life before he became a vampire and Marius even then was very resistant to turning Armand or indulging in Armand's crush on him, and the only reason he turned him as young as he did was because Armand was dying. So until we get a more objective answer about what Marius and Armand's relationship was, not as it's told to us during a vicious fight between Louis and Armand or a very complex moment of self reflection tinged with bitterness, I am hesitant to say Marius is a villain in the way the fandom has decided he is.

However, if the show decides that based on Marius's actions in the book, the richer exploration in their reinterpretation of his character is that he had a highly questionable, even groomer relationship with Armand, I'd be all for it. It's a completely valid interpretation of the character in a reexamination of the text and one I trust these writers to bring a lot of complexity to. But I do think it's going to be more complicated than it appears based on the two mentions of Marius we've had so far because everything in the show has been more complex than it seems. Marius is 90% a protagonist in the book, he's one of the most universally beloved vampires in the entire vampire world for his wisdom, his humanity, his care for others, and for taking on the duty of caring for Akasha and Enkil when it was a very dangerous and tedious thing to do with little reward besides survival (and he was almost killed over it too multiple times). So it's a BIG change to make him a villain to a modern audience by making him Armand's abuser instead of his patron and inspiration (until they were cruelly separated) as he was in the books. I'm curious to see how they handle it once Marius is cast.

Now, how Daniel and Marius are going to interact is going to be based on the complexity of how we see Marius objectively in the show, outside of the flashbacks, in my opinion. I'm very curious to see how that turns out but again, remember these characters are monsters. I think assuming that Daniel's reaction to Marius will be 100% negative is premature.

And one more thing I disagree about is the idea that Daniel doesn't know what consent or sexual assault is (unless it was a typo and you were referring to him in the past, not in the present?).

I think Daniel has deep regrets about how he treated that girl when they were both teenagers, and he has deep regrets about how he treated his wives and his daughters. I believe he is haunted by these parts of himself. So I disagree with the characterization of him as being somehow unaware of consent or sexual assault. I believe that the incident with the girl when they were both teenagers was a particular shameful, ugly memory that Armand dug up specifically because it was an ugly, shameful memory of a time that Daniel was cruel and monstrous that he still feels shame about to this day. Armand dug it up not because it was something Daniel thinks is fine that he did, it's something that disgusts Daniel about himself.

But it's also, not to excuse it, but it's a story from when he was young and stupid, not a pattern of behavior we see coming up to the modern day. This is something that haunts him and that he's learned from. Old Daniel is a man who has been an asshole and who has learned a lot of lessons from it, mostly in that he gained many regrets in his life. But Old Man Daniel is introduced to us as someone who remains an investigative reporter because he wants to do some good for the world. It's the one thing he has to offer the world as he is dying. He views his job as a reporter as a sacred trust and we open with him talking about the ethics of investigative reporting. From that I think we can deduce that Daniel is very aware of consent and things like assault and just why what he did as a teenager was wrong. In his way, I think he sees being a reporter as him trying to be a good person.

[helianthus21]

call me crazy but to me the armand//alice theory was never about armand making up an entire person but about him taking an existing love interest/gf/later wife of Daniel's to overwrite some of his 70s/80s!DM memories with

[susandsnell]

For the character ask game 4; 8; 21 for Daniel Molloy and 10; 20 for Madeleine Eparvier? If that's too many, just pick which ones you're most interested in obviously :)

Hi anon! Finally sitting down to do these. Thank you for your patience with this, and double thank you for being the first person to ask me things about that old man and that spectacular queen. Let's go! I'll put it under the cut because boy I'm about to get long-winded -- I blame you for giving me so much to work with!

CHARACTER ASK GAME!!! 💫

Daniel Molloy

4. If you could put this character in any other media, be it a book, a movie, anything, what would you put them in?

You do not want to know the crossovers I've envisioned for this old man. Because of his meta role as the narrator, the messenger, and the archivist of the story, he fits surprisingly well into so many other pieces of media with the premise "what if he was the one investigating/interviewing the survivor". There are many other vampires I'd like him to interview (especially the ones from Tanz Der Vampire), and I'd love to see how a younger Daniel would fare in Fright Night (we all know how The Lost Boys would end for him..). But mostly, final girl that he is, I think he'd rock it in other horror media; the thing that has plagued him and enthralled him all his life. The thing he has begged for and run from. I wonder if The Ring's Rachel Keller was a former student or colleague of his, and if she'd enlist his help with respect to breaking the story on cursed video tapes. I want to see him in a Se7en or Longlegs type of neonoir slasher, sticking his nose where it doesn't belong, and yet coming through when it counts. I think that I would want to personally beat him to death myself for the things he'd say to Dani Ardor (Dan to Dan communication), but he's actually proven himself to be solid at deprogramming someone subjected to intense gaslighting (and very good at ruining relationships, including those that aren't his own!), and if he can keep the insanely misogynistic comments to a minimum for more than five minutes, he might've been able to get her away from the Harga by talking sense.

And finally, in what must make me the greatest parody of myself fathomable, yes, I think Daniel Molloy should investigate and probably write the retrospective on the Black Prom of Stephen King's Carrie. I've frequently joked that for all the addiction trouble, marital and familial trouble, and insanely out of pocket offensive comments, he's a Stephen King author avatar guesting at Manderley or perhaps Wuthering Heights.

But all seriousness, you have Sue Snell, who wrote her own autobiography of the horrific and targic events for which she wound up both scapegoated and disbelieved. Given his nose for the supernatural/preternatural, Daniel would follow where that thread leads and maybe help her find some peace in the process. The two certainly have a lot in common; both did fucking horrible things as a teenager for which they later faced an insanely disproportionate retribution, both have curly hair (usually in Sue's case), both are heavily coded to be repressing queerness leading them to unfulfilling heteronormative relationships/plans for unhappy family life, both take the role of the archivist and messenger to shape the horrors they lived into a narrative - their narrative - before the world will make of it what it will. Both fell in love with their monster(s). Both are fucking SURVIVORS.

(I kind of want to write this now...)

8. What’s something the fandom does when it comes to this character that you despise?

Honestly, I don't want to rehash bad discourse from twitter, so I'll just say exaggerating his very apparent flaws to thoughtlessly trigger people in the interest of winning a morality contest in this of all franchises. On the flipside of that, reducing him to his ship with Armand -- I've been very vocal regarding how much I despise the Armand Is Alice theory, and so long as it persists I'll continue. Not because of this or that headcanon, but it's phenomenally misogynistic to erase women we haven't even seen onscreen yet for slash because eewwww no girls allowed. Like what in the circa 2007 misogynistic yaoi livejournal, TJLC ass theory are we doing here. But also because it would be terrible writing. The emotional impact of old Maniel as a character concept is that he's lived a full life, accomplished incredible things, and had relationships that were meaningful and that he also destroyed. He has these things because of Louis' rescue of him and Louis' words, and when they see each other again in 2022, the tangible impact of his great deed are written in every line on Daniel's face. I don't mind 'the Chase happened' truthers at all, but my God, you undercut everything when you suggest that it's Oops, All Armand, meaning Daniel never had a life fully lived and failings and triumphs he carries with him. You also ironically make DM less interesting by making him the only person in Daniel's life of any significance. Just. Take the character as we got him, my god.

21. If you’re a fic writer and have written for this character, what’s your favorite thing to do when you’re writing for this character? What’s something you don’t like?

I have a whole Thing about how I'm a strident feminist who somehow hitched her wagon to this geriatric misogynist, but it is a part of his very distinctive voice, so I do like to dig deep with "what's the thing a man could say that would piss me off the most", and then I run it through the canon content (since his character voice is very particular and distinct), plus some meta works with Eric Bogosian, to see if it fits, sprinkle in some Freak Shit, and bada bing bada boom, we've got our favourite asshole. It's weirdly cathartic in a way? Exorcising demons of shitty men I've dealt with or known of I guess lmao. I would say in sappier moods I like looking for the gentleness and the silver lining underneath the ten layers of Having No Limits, and when I hit on what's tender but still plausible, aka my favourite Daniel moments? No better feeling.

The flipside of this, being what I don't like, is that keeping that voice up is hard and it is a challenge to stay as sharp and ten steps ahead as he is. Need to brush up on some Columbo, I think...

Madeleine Éparvier

10. Could you be best friends with this character?

My heart would really, really, really love to say yes, but my gut and my brain say a definitive no. For one thing, while they make it very, very clear she's not a Collaborator or antisemitic in the slightest, the way her wartime affair came about and her later actions betrays an amorality in those circumstances that I probably wouldn't be able to look past, outsiders though we both may be. I'm also one for obsessive morality-related thoughts in general, so I don't think this would jell especially well with her survivalist mentality. I'm also fluent in French but it's not my first language, so that would likely get on her nerves. And while we'd share an interest in fashion and I'd commend her for her tastes in both clothes and women, I feel like she'd see me as a bootlicker for my legal education lolol.

And most importantly - Madeleine is incredibly mean. It's hot, it's funny, it's sexy, but I am profoundly oversensitive, and she would absolutely make me cry several times lmao. I don't really know if there's any character on this show I'd be able to get along with because everyone is so delightfully awful and also, you know, murderous. But that's why it's fun!

20. Which other character is the ideal best friend for this character, the amount of screentime they share doesn’t matter?

Well, Claudia is her companion and soulmate, so that's the easy answer; they complete each other in a way that no one ever quite has. Two outcasts, two people brutally mistreated in societies to which they were supposed to belong, two women carrying pain and humour and brutality and softness, and growing flowers over the corpses they leave in their wake. She is the X at the end of Claudia's long journey, the reason she doesn't leap in the fire who did not think twice about burning at her side; she is the only one who reads Claudia's diaries with permission. Claudia is her window to the wider world, her rescuer twice-over, and the only person who meets her where she is, in strangeness and violence and joy, in sucking the marrow from the bones you leave behind you.

So...'best friend' is probably a very light way of putting it lolol.

But also? I genuinely think she'd get along with Daniel. Two unapologetic amoral assholes who defiantly faced their past trauma to sacrifice themselves for the one they loved. And they both bully Armand, too!

Thank you so much for this! Apologies again for the length.

[duriens]

did the show just.... butcher devil's minion completely??

I didn't mind Armand's characterization in the show so far (well, kind of, except the fact that they turned him into a supervillain vs. saint Lestat) but the sudden reveal that Daniel Molloy was turned by Armand "out of spite", leaving him all alone to fend for himself apparently, really put me off. so not only there is little to no chance that devil's minion ever happened in the 70s or 80s, but also it's not gonna happen in 2022? because Daniel has already been turned, and the turning of Daniel is the culmination of Armand's and Daniel's relationship arc together, one that is for sure unhealthy and codependent and obsessive, but that was also tender and sweet in a very special way - no wonder that chapter has been a fan favorite for so many for so long. and they just.... discarded it like that?

Daniel's a vampire, he's been turned out of spite, it's heavily hinted that it happened either immediately after Dubai or very little time later. I really doubt there has been time/interest to do any sort of chase, or one that culminates into the sort of feelings Armand and Daniel develop for each other, at least. Daniel destroyed Armand in the eyes of his lover and I really don't think there's any sort of love story brewing there. Doesn't seem it happened in the past either, cause there's not a single hint at the Alice theory in this episode and I thought that if it was true, we'd have another little crumb before the season was over.

What about Armand's line that making fledglings repulsed/repulses him? That was a really important piece of characterization and they didn't even let us see him work through that when turning Daniel. Book Armand sees the process as something worse than killing, and that is why he never did it. He finally concedes because of love for Daniel, however obsessive it is, because Daniel is begging him on his death bed, because he needs him forever and Daniel needs him, too. From repulsion to acceptance because of a pure, absolute sentiment. Show Armand turns Daniel Molloy because he's full of spite. Why would they take the 'Armand is a super villain and theres nothing else to him' route and give him a petty vedetta for that one act that is so important for him in the book, as a character? Why??

and why did they have the talamasca guy tell Daniel 'you should be scared of the other one' when literally they made Armand the dude who kills and turns Daniel, whereas Louis is his best friend?? It just doesn't make sense. There's quite a bit that doesn't make sense to me in this last episode. But I gotta admit, the treatment of Armand's and Daniel's characters has baffled me. even if I weren't a devil minion's fan or a fan of these two characters specifically, it would've rubbed me the wrong way.

I don't know. I guess we'll see what they do next; hoping that there is more to that event than a simple 'oh he turned u cause u ruined his life' and Armand fucking off into the sunset forever (not quite, lol). maybe we'll find out it was all an elaborate plot from Daniel who knew he was paying with fire and counted on Armand to be so mad he would do the one act he found repulsive: finally making a vampire. maybe that's it, and Daniel had decided at some point during the sessions that he didn't want to die, that he wanted the gift. maybe he never changed his mind about it since the 70s. maybe he played Armand. manipulating the manipulator? makes sense in a way, I guess, but boy is it a waste to not serve on a silver platter all those sad and tender and raw and odd feelings that the devil's minion chapter already had prepared for us.

[brsb4hls]

Read your post about show DM development, it drew me in since I’ve also in the wake of the season two finale been thinking a lot about what the plan is/was with DM from Rolins’ and the other writers’ perspective.

The lack of anything solid in regard to DM, any clear hint made me wonder if the DM relationship was planned at all. The thing that keeps confusing me is that Rolins stated years ago, I think when attending a convention in connection to season one, that fans of DM shouldn’t worry. Confirming - at least seemingly so - that this relationship would play out in some way. I also don’t think he would have affirmed it so clearly if he didn’t mean romantically? I dunno. Have you seen the clip? Looking at season one I thought that Armand-as-Rashid’s reaction to Louis offering Daniel the ‘Dark Gift’ was the only real hint that there might be something there.

However after watching season two I felt that the show moved away from the possibility of a past-DM. The Alice stuff never convinced me, Armand didn’t seem to be comforting Daniel when he brought up the proposal. The only two aspects about that interaction which made me wonder was the show making a deal of Daniel 1) “feeling freer to to hold her hand in Paris”, but this could be due to Alice not being white, which would have added another parallel between Louis and Daniel (their Paris experiences mirroring each other). And 2) the fact that Daniel refers to Alice as his ex-wife, and himself as having been married twice. So did they get married at a later date? Or did Daniel actually lie about marrying her wholesale? Was this scene/reveal meant to be longer/a bigger deal at some point in the writing process? Alternatively maybe they got married later due to legal reasons/for the kid and that’s why the rejection to his proposal was so painful for Daniel still? I dunno. I don’t think there must be anything DM-related here but I’m not going to claim there couldn’t be. There seemed to be something here - or the old and discarded(?) blueprints of a bigger scene possibly?

However If the writers were going past-DM I feel that surely they would have hinted at it at some point - if not outright included that storyline in some small way to start/tease it. The interactions between Armand and Daniel were, imho, quite impersonal in S02E05. Of course the episode can be a good introduction to DM, standing in for Armand imprisoning and starting to hunt Daniel (the learning-to-be-fascinating angle is great) but the show clearly didn’t commit to the plot in the episode. Instead possibly(?) just leaving a door open. I was a bit surprised that their dynamic didn’t become a bigger thing after the episode.

So maybe DM was not planned to have happened in the past, what actually weirds me out more is the lack of present-DM in this season as well. Like the tension between Daniel and Armand is delicious and fun at times, especially in S02E01 and at some smaller moments (Daniel trying to rile Armand up in the wake up S02E05 with the drinks comment was interesting!). But if the show is going enemies-to-lovers or Armand deciding to pursue Daniel because he now finds him fascinating/Daniel finding Armand fascinating (which was my theory before S02E08) why wasn’t there any scenes between the two setting this up? Like I was very surprised and honestly a bit let down that the dynamic between Armand and Daniel didn’t become more insane after S02E05, of course Daniel cannot lose it on this ancient vampire but still honestly?! I realize that Louis is the main character, but I feel that the writers had more than enough space and time to include just a scene at some point during the season which would hint at or develop Daniel’s and Armand’s dynamic in any way. So I feel a bit weirded out that they didn’t? Seems like a deliberate choice, which is strange if DM is planned as a thing they want to dig into next season(?). Though Rolins have only affirmed that they will have scenes together, also some of his comments read as almost a bit defensive to me? Am I crazy or is anyone else reading it as that as well? They did make a big deal of Armand not turning anyone and did choose to have Daniel be turned this season rather than next. Could just have been a good cliff hanger. I don’t know, I’m very confused about their intentions at this point. Sorry for long ask - really wanted to hear your take on all of this.

I think there are a lot of different factors here, I'll try to organize a bit.

Fan perspective:

- first off, DM is book canon. So we book readers might be biased in interpreting scenes because we have expectations

- DM already being canon in the source material also makes it likely to happen in the show

Rolin Jones/creatives:

- they did change book aspects to appeal to a broader modern audience, but also kept the core themes and put in easter eggs.

So they clearly made the show with respect and love for the source material

-every season can be the last one, so everything has to make sense in one season

From that perspective I think RJ focused mainly on Louis and Lestat and the Loustat relationship as a red thread (hence the addition of Dreamstat), but put in small hints at other storylines from the books. Like Nicky and the mention of cut off hands.

With a season 3 focusing on Lestat's story there might be more Nicky, but in season 2 it was cut short (and it's not part of iwtv anyways but tvl).

DM is also not part of iwtv, it happens in the third book, as we all know.

In that Interview with RJ I think he was genuinly surprised people were this interested in DM (they should be mainly focused on Loustat at this point of the story) and got a) a bit defensive and b) genuinly thought he included some snippets/hints with the bottle ep.

So fans did get a pretty intense 70s interaction, just not like in the book.

The storytelling:

-Daniel has tons of issues obvi, especially in regards to relationships, which fits well with Louis' story and makes for a compelling dynamic between the two.

Which is important for the format to work.

I think the Alice mentions are supposed to highlight those issues, just like the paperback thing. And Daniel's daughters have to come from somewhere.

(Personally I'm open to all head canons and fanfic here, including mpreg, because why not, but I do think there isn't much to it in show)

-then there's the Daniel/ Armand dynamic, which starts of as enemies (somewhat) for tension.

There needs to be an underlying threat or at least uneasy feeling. Armand provides that.

And it's clear in their banter.

Also dialogue like: 'you tried to drain me, pal'

'belated apology no. 2' reads more like a frenemy buddy comedy dynamic.

So we have this rivalry between them that can be aggressiv but also compelling and funny.

The actors:

-in a lot of interviews Eric underlines the Armand being Daniel's rival/nemesis/antagonist dynamic.

So that was clearly planned.

He also seems open to a different dynamic, jokes about it and seems to discuss it with Assad (well, Assad brought it up).

-Assad has been joking and teasing the ship from the start. He is clearly personally intrigued by that dynamic and with him and Eric somewhat bonding over their work it might not be to challenging for them to act it out in one way or another.

To conclude: The creatives chose a different focus and did only plan on crumbs (bottle ep and Daniel's turning). The story telling supports that theory.

The fans have different interpretations because of their expectations.

They also voiced those expectations a lot and promoted the show via DM content.

The actors vibe pretty well together and seem to be open to a lot of different things and we know they get to make suggestions and add lib.

So DM might still be happening, if RJ changes his mind, but it will be now and with an enemy to whatever dynamic.

Which I'll take.

This is how I see it anyways.

[streussal]

listen i SO want to be with you on the whole devils' minion 'armand made daniel forget their relationship' thing being bs and unfounded and i mostly agree that it is BUT there is ONE line in this season that still drives me crazy because i simply cannot explain it and that's when louis is like 'you felt more comfortable holding alice's hand in paris i wonder why that is?' like........ WHAT was that about then ?????

One theory I like is that Alice is a woman of colour. Alternately, Daniel is just emotionally constipated about minor PDA in a place where people might know him.

The "Alice is Armand" theory drives me especially crazy. The man wrote a memoir that had a fact-checker. Also why are fans against him having a life prior to Armand?? Part of what makes Daniel interesting is having a life with mistakes and regrets. Being a shitty husband and father. (Also the parenting thing is something he and Louis relate to each other about)

[nalyra-dreaming]

I think that a lot from the DM fans’ disappointment comes from the fact that they’ve kind of… set themselves up for disappointment, in a way? Don’t get me wrong, I’m including myself here and I definitely want it to happen more than anything in the show, but a lot of these theories (like DM having happened in the 70’s/80’s, Alice = Armand, etc.), haven’t even been confirmed by the show, the actors or the producers, it’s just the fans taking these so called “clues” and interpreting them in ways that fit their preferred headcanons. So many fans were convinced that there would be a past DM reveal in the finale full of flashbacks or at least a very explicit clue re: it having happened in the past 100%. So when the show goes in a completely different direction no one could’ve ever have predicted, they’re either angry or feel gaslighted when in fact, the show never promised them anything. Not Rolin, who seems kinda lukewarm on them atm, not even Eric or Assad who seem very into the idea and are looking forward to exploring it but are also clear about not actually knowing. And there’s Jacob whose comment about Louis leaving Armand for periods of time in America is interesting but it’s really just a headcanon for now and doesn’t actually confirm anything. Hope I’m not sounding too harsh, but if people are putting all of their eggs in the “70’s/80’s Devil’s Minion is real” basket in order for them to actually like their story in the show and the changes they’ve made… I feel like it might be counterproductive in the long run. I’ve been in other fandoms and whenever these theories gain so much weight in fan communities to the point they’ve become accepted as “canon” and then the show ends up not doing it… the backlash is brutal. And I feel like this is be the direction DM fans might be headed to, with some people acting like they definitely had an affair in the past which not only confirms DM in the show but also explains their motivations going forward. Like, no. Idek I’m scared!!! I just want everyone to stay positive yet realistic and work with what we’ve got you know?

We should definitely try to enjoy what we’re given, true.

Personally I think there were plenty of hints in the show already, and I do get the disappointment, because the way it was done was definitely not expected. Which is probably the point. 😅

[queer-is-future]

apologies if this has already been discussed

but in all the fantastic metas I’ve seen discussing the halves of faces for Louis, Lestat, and Armand in the s1/s2 promo posters, many have pointed out that we have no promo poster for Daniel despite him being an important character (it’s not his time yet in the story)

but he DOES have a very interesting image on the cover of his so called “brutally honest” memoir of a man (is it him or someone else??idk) whose “brain half” is covered with that weird grainy image you used to get on vhs tapes when they malfunctioned in the player or had their content erased

[and sometimes if you paused in the right place or played the tape slowly you could see some of those lost images]

and there’s a face of someone hidden in the black part by the dude’s shoulder who is looking directly at us

and that vhs malfunction thing continues on the back to Daniel’s author image who we know has memory loss around the original interview (lost of theories as to why)

so Daniel’s memoir has the same half face as the promo posters but is it him in that picture or someone else? who is the face in the background? curiouser and curiouser said alice.

[also is the roman weiss thing a nod to Marius?? idk.]

“Everything would go all right for months as Daniel felt compelled to move from city to city, walking the pavements of New York or Chicago or New Orleans. Then the sudden disintegration. He’d realize he had not moved from his chair in five hours. Or he’d wake suddenly in a stale and unchanged bed, frightened, unable to remember the name of the city where he was, or where he’d been for days before. Then the car would come for him, then the plane would take him home.”

The Queen of the Damned, Devil’s Minion

[crazykuroneko]

Rewind the Tape – IWTV S102

I'm catching up with @iwtvfanevents now with Episode 2. Repeating my FYI from before: this is my first time rewatching the show (excluding indirect watch through YouTube reactions), and it's purpose for me to refresh my mind and noticing things. So, I won't dwell on certain theories, but I'll take notes about it for myself.

Feel free to reply if you want to discuss. *crack knuckles* Let's go!

• Marius' painting. A clue that Rashid is Armand. But now, IF Justin Kirk is really Marius, it's also a clue that Marius also lives in that apartment building 💡Does that mean there's a real possibility of "Akasha is the groan" theory to be true? Or "sleeping Lestat is the groan"? Because no way these good writers features the groan without meaning even though the groan is indeed a phenomenon that happens to tall buildings. Saving this for later.

• "Is it only work or you (are his fuckboy basically)?" Your prejudice (and lowkey envy, maybe) is showing, Daniel

• "I apologize for my outburst earlier" You're just crying Louis. It's okay. Fuck this discipline life you're doing 😭

• Idc I headcanon Armand bought Louis that top because it looks so great for Ied Fitr. Like, I already have the visual in my head.

• The music turns out to be a diagetic music as well is so witty and memorable. Love that

• The farm. Hmmm. Saving that for later

• "Two vampires walked into the church". The error in this statement is interesting. Does he feel like it's inevitable the moment he walked into that church?

• Blood of the deceased will suck you into death. Okay, noted.

• That priest is still alive???? What?

• The spark shot is beautiful. Iirc, Alan said that's kinda tricky to achieve.

• I don't know, I just love this shot:

• "Are you hungry, Louis?" "Huh-huh" PLEASE HE IS SO CUTE AND PALM-SIZED

• That paw of a hand directing Louis' head. Icu

• Lestat still could talk to Louis telepathically here. Because he hasn't had his first meal?

• "Just to be clear, we're here to talk about tractors" 🏳️‍🌈🤔❓I mean, what this poor soul is assuming to begin with 😭

• Lestat's instruction being an innuendo for oral sex is so 😭. I love these writers

• "You're going to find that difficult". That's "after-the-fact scene" number 2. Yeah, I will call it that. It means that scene doesn't necessarily happen as a fact in the past because it's impossible for Louis to know (he's being super focused on his family, no way he heard that). But it's formed based on an information Louis learnt after the fact, which over the years eventually attached to the memory of that day. Memory does evolve that way; no intervention or intent needed for that to happen. The after the fact information this time is that it's indeed hard, and Lestat must have warned him (see: post almost killing nephew scene), so over the years it evolved to "oh Lestat must find it ridiculous I tried to go back to my family that first day". I LOVE that the writers are doing this. It means they're treating memory in the show as real memory; it's not static, it evolves over the years, formed based on a lot of influences etc etc.

• Love the burning special effects. That's a great way to show it off.

• I can't believe they had their first time with Louis smelling like milk and burnt 😂😭

• Daniel is SO desperate to put some distance and not sympathize with Louis. Though he kinda fails by the end of the episode thanks to Alice

• The fact they gave Lestat's preaching lines from the book to Louis (the having hand in divine plan bits) really tells you that Louis is posturing here. Idk I feel like he's trying to gauge how far Daniel could tolerate. And Daniel is indeed afraid, judging from his face and how he becomes more bitey.

• After-the-fact scene number 3, with Lestat staring as Louis' sex worker's breast. The after-the-fact information is obviously Lestat staring at Antoinette in the next episode which led to his affair. Of course, Louis would questioning when Lestat started to be unfaithful, when his eyes started straying; a very common question for people who are cheated. Is it really from the beginning? (Fenwick's arm hasn't healed yet since Paul's funeral; Google tells me it can take six weeks)

• "It's not cheating if it's with a woman" oh hey best cameo of the year lol

• Lestat's face when he explained about no telepathy is like he just had a war flashback

• I need more Florence vs Lestat cat fight seriously

• "Haven't heard a knock on my door. It's a half-mile both ways" SPEAK IT LOUDER LOUIS. Like, I understand you're grieving and blaming your son, but no call whatsoever from everyone for 3 months after your son just suddenly moved out?? Insanity. (But also not surprising seeing my own big family responding to silent treatment 💀) The homophobia jumps out as well. Paul is Louis' real tie to the family.

• Jacob's expressions during the racist lawyer scene muah

• "If you hide from me this long again, I'll hunt you down..." again, his family knows where he lives 🤷‍♀️

• Grace pointing out the "extra" cash and the fact he lives nicely in the Quarter now 👀👀

• "What can i do to make it up to you?" This whole scene shows Lestat's method in deescalating a situation. He obviously doesn't understand the point of the problem is yet he doesn't try to understand. Louis is giving him a silent treatment (which means he's my bestie, cos silent treatment is my flaw as well lol), but idk instead of showing a good intention by asking Louis to explain to him or something, he asks for a shortcut instead. He needs Louis to verbalize the solution for them. We're fast forwarding, but iirc this is similar approach he has with Antoinette as well. Here, Louis is still willing to verbalize the solution.

• The way Louis' neck moves when Lestat says "How can i stop you?" oh he loves being pampered

• Louis doesn't put "sir" after Tom's name when signing the purchase 😎✊

• The body double throws me out I'm so sorry 😭

• 1912-1917

• This whole thing with Benny feels like a thriller movie. Kudos for the director

• Of course he came to his family bringing money for Grace. It seems it's past bed time. Florence is in her bedroom.

• "It's still Lestat" There's passive aggressiveness into it idk. Like, she expects them to have broken up already

• The last victim in 2000. noting that down.

• Louis really wants Daniel to highlight he's different from the other girls. I mean, the other vampires.

• Daniel's face over the slurping 😭

• He put Benny on the floor so he wouldn't roll down from the sofa 🥺

• "If you love your family, spare them the pain" I believe Lestat is being genuine here. He basically goes I've been there done that, and look at me now it ended so badly.

• "I'm your family, Louis" 😭

• Then he basically makes a perfect summary of Louis aww

• "Maybe there's deaf, blind porter and kill when we get to the hotel." Louis, you're not so different from the other girls (vampires) 😭

• That long ass overture just for two tickets to the opera. Lestat, please.

• The whole "there was present a kind of worship on my part" 🤌 *insert that gif of pen on fire while writing*

• You can see the exact moment when it dawns on Lestat he has fucked up with bringing Louis to a racist opera house. God, what a loser (affectionately). It's never come into his mind how bad it would ruin Louis' mood. Like, he understands racism is bad as a concept, but he doesn't understand how it affects one's self. He thinks that would be a minor convenience to Louis that Louis could just brush off.

• Lestat 🤝 Me, accidentally become manipulative when we're in a pinch. (re: the loneliness speech)

• Louis is so down bad, unfortunately ❤️

• "And this woman sang for us, it seemed, articulating the difficult love we often had troubles exptessing ourselves" So beautiful.

• Misophonia girlies (gn) unite! I will always enjoy Lestat killing Ernesto I'm so sorry lol. Saw a reaction from someone who does classical music and they're ouching as well. So, GO FOR IT SON KILL HIM

• Lestat slowly killing Ernesto while Louis watching his memories to feel the "charge" of connecting to humanity. Oh, they are made for each other.

• The story with Alice, that she felt not good enough for him so she always died his eyebrow brown, but Daniel actually liked it when she didn't do it. Aww Daniel is trying to cheer him up.

• About the question for this week, does Louis really need to maintain the thread and why? Idk, i feel like Louis feels he needs to do it. Maybe to maintain some resemblance of humanity inside him, afraid it will go away over time. But to me, it doesn't really work.

Summary: Okay, if the first episode is about establishing Louis' internal conflicts, about the seduction/hunt and turning, this episode is about what Louis lost and not lost to vampirism. We also see the seed of Loustat's conflicts and how ineffective their method to solve them. And it's about vampirism, it's also the episode where we get the vampire lore the most. Of course over the months after season 1 aired I have kept several theories up about where the Dubai timeline is set based on the books. And the teasers of season 2 have debunked some of them. But this rewatch gives me another theory which I will keep to myself. All I can say though, instead on certain period of time of book canon, I think they're taking elements from different era of the books for Dubai. Can't wait to see the answer in S2 ❤️