#antis please interact

[demonic-shadowlucifer]

A few days ago I started a survey intending to document the experiences others have had while partaking in shipcourse. After going through responses of the first survey, and after reading some critiques and questions yall wanted to know, I think it's time to share the second and final survey of my research!

As usual, please be civil in the reblogs. This is an open discussion. Tagging for visibility: @proship-anti-discussion @proshippers-against-censorship @olderthannetfic

Like with the last survey, this one will remain open for three or four days. Also, you guys are allowed to send in asks detailing your experiences with either side, in case you don't feel like going through the survey.

[fandomwe1rd0]

Rick and Morty proshitter blocklist

Hello! I have a list of proshippers that you can easily block. I can't tag them because I blocked them so just block these people yourself, or make sure you avoid them since they are still active posters

Do not harass these people, it is not worth it, this list is so you can block them and not engage with them

Fellofreak

pockymorbys

elinamehuwu

Snoorra

weepingjellyfishunknown

Lipsifyouwant

misnihillist

thelabcoat

garmanarnarr

0rb0t

popajabki

Munnaby

ramheavenandhell

There is more but I am tired. If anyone wants more please dm me and I will happily let y'all know! And if any proshippers are reading this, kindly block me and get the hell off of my blog <3

[rosatherad]

i wrote this in the replies of another post but i think this could be its own so here, some of my thoughts on fandom purity discourse

pro-ship/anti-ship discourse seems to be mostly a tool to create an us-vs-them situation, to demonize each other and attack each other endlessly. and i say this as someone knee-deep in the discourse. thats not to say its pointless discourse, that its not important in some way. but its also not an enormous thing either. its origins are but a small part of a larger problem (or two, or three, depending on how you look at it etc)

get christian puritanism and queerphobia and impressionable young progressives who just want to do the right thing and fandom spaces and put them all together and you get the first anti-shippers, get antis doing anti stuff for long enough and you get the first reactionary pro-shippers, and the more time passes the more these two extreme ends get further and further apart

and then both sides are calling the other a cult, calling the other groomers and predators, creating strict walls to separate each others spaces while simultaneously infiltrating them to start fights, both sides bonding by talking bad about the other, extreme pro-shippers and extreme anti-shippers are mirror images of each other

these problems could all be solved i think if people were willing to calm down and listen to each other, to mend the miscommunications, to understand each other and elaborate their points with patience and openness and NUANCE. but unfortunately, social media cultivates the opposite

------

i do block people with "proship dni" and anyone else i see who shares their dislike of proshippers, because i think those boundaries should be respected. but i won't say "antis dni" in return. i want to get along. if people want to talk to me about it, i want to have conversations with them, not to convert them to my side or to tell them how wrongbad they are. i would give anyone the chance to have a good-faith chat about the discourse, i'll answer questions to the best of my ability.

[sn0wcake]

proshitters i am literally begging you to TAG. YOUR. POSTS. PLEASE. and dont fucking tag them as antishipping to intentionally piss us off or whatever because proshipping can be like. EXTREMELY TRIGGERING?

also you're literally objectively wrong if you think fiction doesn't affect reality and if you know it affects reality and you still proship then im just going to assume you're a bad person

[leaderlamby]

Antishippers: It doesn't MATTER that it's fiction, you're still shipping family members together and that means you SUPPORT that and you're DISGUSTING! *returns to violent video game of murder and bloodshed*

[drunkenclown555]

Pr0sh1pper with "antis dni" in their bio going out of their way to try to clown on an antis vent post? Expected, no big shock there, they do that a lot.

Pr0sh1pper going out of their way to try to clown on a vent post specifically about hating ableists + anti-recovery pedophiles and child abuse fetishism? Curious! Interesting! Why would you do that lol!

[mentallyunstablemeganerd]

I'm so confused.

What the fuck is the definition of "proship" and "antiship" entail.

Is proship just thinking it would be an interesting story concept?

Is it thinking that stuff is good irl?

Is antiship just hating on fanfic writers for portraying not healthy relationships?

Is antiship just against writing underage?

Do proshippers think that stuff like poppytwt is ok? (It's not. It's really not.)

Are antis just ignoring the people who write school shooting fanfiction?

Someone please help me without the use of death threats

[ship-survey]

Antis are currently UNDERREPRESENTED in my survey!!!

Because proshippers tend to check ship discourse tags more, as well as tags relating to their position, the survey is majority proship with few objecting stances represented. I’m going to only tag this with the anti tags so that more people can find it but if you are or know self-identified or anti-leaning peeps, pls feel free to send this survey their way!!

Survey can be taken here.

[thelemmallama]

I'm former pro-para turned anti-para these days, but not because I've been convinced by existing anti-para arguments, but because I discovered new ones for myself. 99% of existing/visible anti-para arguments are fucking stupid; that sadly has not changed. (For one, most anti-paras don't even reject the premise of "paraphilia" as a scientifically valid condition in the first place)

I'm tired of just everyone being dumb in para-related discourse and completely failing to describe the differences they've observed and carve reality at the joints. So I felt compelled to clear things up (also partly because of personal stuff happening to me recently), and made these infographics(?) in the process:

also the explanation itself; here's some very messy notes under the cut that I don't have energy to edit

an actually consistent argument against MAPs, including non-offenders (from a former supporter)

(1: diagram?)(if you encounter a 'necessary evil' situation; someone probably screwed up earlier down the line)(trolley, pull, don't pull - real evil: someone tied these people to the tracks)(admit, deny - real evil: you've been fantasizing about children) why it's harmful to think about children sexually

'what would be destroyed by the truth, should be' {- pro-maps would call this thoughtcrime, and literally no-one addresses it}

related: sa survivors don't disclose not bc 'feeling like bad person' shame, but bc of "doesn't want ppl to think of them being sa'd" shame {- even in a perfectly accepting world, there is the tradeoff of getting it off your chest vs }

if you look at things through agency-maximizing consequentialism (which solves/avoids the horrifying edge cases of happiness-maximizing consequentialism like powering a utopia witha forsaked child or sacrificing us all to the utility monster), thoughts do indeed cause harm

(3?) arousal is not pleasure

sa survivors experience arousal when sa'd; they did NOT enjoy it [ ('pleasure' or 'gratification' being used to describe sex (e.g. sexual assault, one's body 'betraying' you for feeling pleasure), and compare substituting 'pleasure' or 'gratification' in descriptions of being itchy/etc) no no no no, you're still trapped in the 'arousal = pleasure' framework. by saying that negative experiences of arousal are ego-dystonic, you're still assuming arousal is intrinsically pleasureable and it's a negative experience because the person doesn't want to feel pleasure in this situation, not because the arousal itself is the exact opposite of pleasurable.

an example of how arousal can be a negative yet ego-syntonic experience could be if a person is sexually assaulted, but they have extremely low self-worth, despises themself and believe they deserve to suffer. then the profoundly painful experience of sexual assault could be ego-syntonic, as they feel like it's their rightful punishment. however just because the arousal was ego-syntonic does not at all imply it was pleasurable or that they 'enjoyed it', any more than a self-harmer 'enjoyed' hurting themself because they chose to do so. ]

mere stimulation: aroused pleasure: enjoy/gratification/desire idk: erotic/titilating/excitement/horny/get off on

every word for being sexually aroused or something causing sexual arousal carries with it the implication that it's a positive experience. sexual excitement? titilation? horny? get off on? even 'sexual arousal' itself!

(2?) "pedophilia" not biologically based

most are men: gender essentialist implications

child marriage was widespread

children/innocence/vulnerability to violation/don't think of pink elephants

currently most people not attracted to children bc we correctly recognize it's harmful to sexually interact with children. it's like eating a sandwich vs eating a sandwich after knowing the cucumber had been used as a dildo. physical sensation same

(thing that first clued me in) on ao3, there are barely any fics about non-offending pedophiles, while there are tons of underage fics. given how prevalent proship discourse is and how much it overlaps with map discourse, wouldn't there be more stories about non-offending pedophiles? instead, even among the sympathetically-depicted pedophiles a majority is offending. it just seems really sus that that narrative seems to resonate more with people than that of the non-offending pedophile.

(4)(diagram?) 'arousal wrt children' on two axes: positive/negative valence, deliberate/instinctive

pocd

self-harm/catharsis

wants to change

map who push for (no)map acceptance

then when i said 'it's harmful to think about children sexually', i mean positive valence thought. what about deliberate? i'm not feeling convicted on this and am open to arguments why it's wrong, but i believe deliberately thinking about csa in a negative way is like deliberately thinking about other atricites in a negative way. the 'fiction is not reality' thing applies specifically to this quadrant. and yes, it's worrying there's no clear line between mere depiction and endorsement, but that can be applied to fascist genocides as well, and i don't see many people arguing against all depictions of fascist genocides in fiction because of this. people still manage to identify and condemn positive depictions/endorsements of fascism, and the same should be applied to csa and desire-for-children.

what about the 'is it okay to tell' test? it's clearly abusive to talk about deliberately dwelling on the abuse of a specific real child that exists or has existed (other than your past self), so i believe that's harmful to do, even if you attribute negative valence to the abuse. but if the valence is negative - you're rightfully thinking of it as something horrific rather than something enjoyable - i believe it's morally neutral to dwell on the abuse of a random child you imagined, or yourself from the past. (fictional children are a grey area imo; if the child is from a story that depicts csa in the source material for catharsis/coping, that's different from if the child is from nonsexual children's media

[wildfeather5002]

A couple questions to ex proshippers: What made you leave the proship community? How does proshippers' beliefs & actions affect them? /gen

[antis-are-cool]

hello, welcome to antis-are-cool!

hello! my name is reggie/regina, i use any pronouns (he/it pref but i don't mind any others), and i have decided to create this blog to be a safe space for antis! i am also a minor.

due to this i would like to request that proshippers SERIOUSLY DO NOT INTERACT WITH THIS BLOG, as it is meant to be a safe space for antis. it's not exactly "safe" for us if proshippers are invading the space! any proship account interacting will be blocked.

on this blog you can expect to find anti positivity, good anti takes, regina things, and more!

faq + dni under the cut!

FAQ

"what does antiship mean?"

to be antiship means to be against proshipping. proshipping (also called comshipping) is the belief that "shipping" any 2 or more characters, even if the ship is abusive, pedophilic, incestuous, etc., is completely fine. most of the time proshippers think this because they believe that "fiction doesn't affect reality", which is just completely untrue! there have been several documented cases of fiction affecting reality.

"can you prove fiction affects reality?"

yes! as an example, the movie "jaws" has very much affected the way sharks are seen culturally, and lead many people to be afraid of sharks even though most of them are not even dangerous. another example is an incident known as the "slenderman stabbings", in which 2 girls had attempted to k!ll their friend so that slenderman would take them in as proxies. there are likely many more examples but these two are the ones i am most aware of myself.

"but i heard proship/antiship means so-and-so and not your definition?"

the chance is, you have stumbled across one of the below common misconceptions:

proship meaning being ok with the concept of shipping in general (fun fact: it actually used to mean this, but the meaning has since changed)

proship meaning being against harrassment (not inherently, many proshippers harrass antis)

proship meaning someone who ships problematic ships (again, not inherently, many of them do but there are those that don't)

proship meaning p3d0 or some other disgusting thing (also not true, not all proshippers are p3d0s, although many p3d0s are in the proship community)

antiship meaning being against shipping in general (i have heard this from several antishippers, and this is simply untrue! i am an anti-shipper and i have several ships.)

antiship meaning being against any kind of problematic relationship being portrayed in media, ever (no! not even a little bit! me and most other antishippers are perfectly fine with toxic relationships being shown in media, as long as it is made clear that said relationship is bad and it is portrayed as such.)

antiship meaning someone who is pro-harrassment (this is also not true. i am an anti, and i will not tolerate harrassment from either proshippers or antis.)

dni

🍭 basic dni criteria

🍭 antis who harrass proshippers

🍭 proshippers (obviously)

i hope you enjoy this blog! goodbye :)

[frightnightindustries]

If you're proship, antiship, and don't glorify dark topics or harass people for writing stuff about dark topics that don't glorify them, then I dgaf what you ship sure you can interact.

[themyofmy]

friendly reminder if youve forgotten: i hate proshippers and would personally gut all of them if i met them irl <3

[lilmissunderstanding]

Hey eeveryone... I'm pretty sure we've all been seeing the recent anti/proshippers drama. Anyone wanna come into my asks to rant/ask for advice? I'm super bored !

[pro-sipper]

"i want more media with zero drama, no tension, and zero problematic characters and i am not joking"

Great! Here are my recommendations:

[proshipwanderer]

i feel like. being anti-harassment should be the default. i think its REALLY strange to go out of your way to bully strangers online. i don’t think. harassing people online and in fandom spaces should be the norm. that’s just me tho