#anti-Iroh

[zuko-always-lies]

Hey, as a long viewer of your anti iroh posts, which, as a person who just recently watched ATLA, I have a very controversial theory/headcanon based on my knowledge of general psychology (not a psychologist so disregard if incorrect) and perspective of Iroh's character and by the attitude of his fans that can possibly get me hate messages and even death threats. So I came to the conclusion that Iroh expresses an uncomfortable character of NPD or particularly a certain "sub" that you will, being Benevolent/Vulnerable Narcissim.

Iroh loves to present himself as "wise, kind and fatherly," but his actions showcase the total opposite, and his supposed identity appears far more shallow and self-centred. He never properly mentors or shows to really know Zuko. Instead, he simply uses Zuko to serve as his act of penance, which is why he never meaningfully teaches Zuko to become a better person or to realise that his father is at fault and that his sister is not his real enemy. But no, instead, he lays off to do the bare minimum. He shows less to no remorse for Zuko's predicament that was caused by him for not standing up to his brother when he was banished. Nor does Iroh show any for Zuko's victims. Instead, Iroh operates under the mindset that supporting Zuko and making him Firelord will accomplish his penance. His lack of care for Azula is precisely because she is an obstacle not just for Zuko but for his "penance" as well.

It's also interesting the lack of self-awareness that Iroh has. He calls Azula crazy for doing what he did for decades. The only difference is that Azula genuinely cares for her nation while Iroh doesn't really care except his glory. He sent his son to the front lines to fight his own battles for him, which isn't that different from Ozai's treatment of Azula and Zuko. Oh, and at the finale, what does he do? Send Zuko and Katara into danger while abandoning them to satisfy his selfish desire. Of course, as you mentioned, he also doesn't live up to his own "wisdom" instead using that wisdom to appear smart and confuse others. Because in all honesty, Zuko NEVER applies any of Iroh's suppose wisdom because Iroh doesn't ever think to teach BLUNTLY to Zuko, like any basic teacher can look at Iroh and already have their hands in their face, but of course the further issue is that instead of applying basic healthy logic, Iroh instead utilises the toxic sibling rivalry to manipulate Zuko into becoming his "perfect" son. Zuko becomes a better person despite Iroh not because of him, Zuko's "metamorphosis" (aka breakdown) is the best example of how unhealthy Iroh's parenting is.

Iroh is also shameless when it comes to his mistakes. He never feels guilt or apologises to June for his blatant sexual harassment. He has no shame for being friends with the Rough Rhinos or assisting Zhao in the further conquest and bloodshed of the Northen Water Tribe. He never thinks or comes clean with his crimes against the Earth Kingdom, instead choosing to profit off the very same people he victimised. He never apologises to Zuko for being a shitty mentor/Uncle.

Iroh reminds me of ALOT of narcissistic so called "benevolent" or "vulnerable" people who will appear kind and even express self hatred but only for further validation and without taking risks or responsibility whatsoever for their mistakes, instead blaming others or doing "good" little things to create a narrative that they are "saints" and that people who disagree or despise them are "crazy or evil".

This might be far-fetched, but when you consider that to this day, the majority of ATLA fans have been juiced in this narrative that Iroh = 50 year old warmonger is a Saint who should be worshipped and that Zuko should be "thankful and grateful" of said Iroh, and that Azula = 14 year old abused child soldier who did the least messed up things and is the youngest member is demonised for being "crazy" and even Aang gets treated inferior to Iroh, well it already feels right at home with typical narcissistic narratives

I've had similar thoughts myself, but I really don't like applying medical diagnoses to fictional characters living in a very different society, so I never quite articulated them. Certainly Iroh seems to be an extraordinarily self-centered person who puts major effort into pretending not be so self-centered.

[skratchpaper]

Order of the White Lotus Headcanon

There is no such thing as a "Grand Lotus" - the title was invented purely to cater to the egos of powerful men who need to feel more special than others. The real members of the Order of the White Lotus use this title as a way to easily recognise assets* of the order that are highly volatile and need to be handled delicately. e.g. When a Grand Lotus gives an order, the order may be obeyed... or the illusion of obedience will be provided.

There may or may not be a true group of leaders in the order. But if there is, it certainly doesn't consist of former conquerors, misogynists, reigning monarchs and/or people with less than two decades of membership.

*Yes, I am saying that "the old masters" aren't actually members, they just think they are. Easiest way to prevent them from getting temperamental and trying to wipe out the order... The order may or may not have used trial and error to figure this system out.

[waywardavatarenthusiast]

oh really iroh? so would it be fair then to call you a fool for abandoning a 600 day siege after putting someone you loved in danger and them getting killed? or even biased to a cruel extent considering how many other fathers probably lost sons in your army?

Finally read this letter in full and....I'm sorry, this is just infuriating.

It's such a bad understanding of Boiling Rock, and it's such a bad understanding of Sokka too. He's NOT STUPID. When will people understand this? He's literally the smartest one in the gaang.

Boiling Rock wasn't some rash impulse. He was trying to save his father, and he was trying to do it because he blamed himself for Hakoda getting captured. Why is this foolish??? Even worse, why does Iroh imply this isn't the right thing to do at the end????

The way it describes Sokka as foolhardy is so weird. He can be cocky, but that's absolutely not what's happening here. When Zuko describes Boiling Rock, Sokka looks shocked and conflicted. He's not going "fuck the consequences, I can do this". He's aware of the danger, but he goes anyway because he feels like he has to. It's his duty to do so.

He goes without anyone else, not because he's dumb and thinks he can do it by himself, but because he's literally trying to save a person he loves. The stupid thing to do would be to endanger someone else he loves by bringing them into this??

He literally describes why he doesn't have much of a plan in the episode too, and IT'S NOT BECAUSE HE'S STUPID. He says "And for the record, I always think things through! But my plans haven't exactly worked, so this time, I'm playing it by ear."

I doubt Sokka ever really does anything without a plan, like he says, he thinks everything through. But yeah, his plans haven't been working out, and also he found out what Boiling Rock was literally a few hours earlier. He didn't have much time to come up with a plan and still! It's his quick thinking that saves the two of them again and again in these two episodes. He manages to keep up his disguise as a guard the whole time while Zuko gets caught. He figured out how the coolers could be used as an escape plan. He and Hakoda figured out their ultimate escape using the gondola.

Hakoda describes him as a genius. Hell, Chit Sang calls Sokka the mastermind behind the whole thing. I just.....I absolutely do not understand how you can watch this episode and come away with the idea that Sokka is stupid?????

People downplaying Sokka's intelligence makes me so angry, and the fact that this somehow made its way into a canon source is just....horrible. I hate this so much.

[wilcze-kudly]

I do find it annoying how a lot of Zutara fans tweak the character's stories, personalities and even the timelines to suit their own needs.

Once again, there's nothing wrong with fanon and headcanons, however if looking through the lense of canon, you're objectively wrong.

I ended up stumbling on a post from a Zutara shipper. (At this point I'm regretfully considering not following the tags for Zuko or Katara because I get way too much Zutara content lol) I'm not replying directly to her because I don't want this to turn into an argument, and I know she doesn't take criticism very well.

Ok, So let's break this down.

The character who was first out of the group to trust Zuko?

I'm quite sure this is referring to the scene in Ba Sing Se's caves. And yes, that is a very important scene. I think it's a very important scene preceeding Zuko's 'relapse'. It shows how he's matured during his time in Ba Sing Se and therefore it serves to add to our dismay when he joins Azula. I adore the fact that Zuko's journey to redemption is not linear, it certainly adds a lot to the character and shows us how his trauma affected him.

It's also a horrific moment for Katara. To have her worldview on Zuko and firebenders as a whole challenged, and then for it to go blowing up in her face. It rips open old wounds of her childhood. It refreshes her resentment of Zuko and the Fire Nation as a whole. It parallels the death of her mother when Aang dies due to Azula's lighting and she is unable to do anything about it. It places her back in that spot of helplessness. Even though she's grown up, even though she's a master waterbender, she still comes a hair's breadth to losing one of the most important people in her life.

No wonder she hated Zuko so much after this.

It's an important moment for both characters, but I wouldn't say it is that in a romantic sense. It's a sweet, hopeful moment that then turns absolutely horrific and visceral for both parties.

I could argue that there are other characters who could be given the title of 'first to trust Zuko'. Funnily, Appa being one of them lol.

But other characters trusting Zuko dovetails nicely into the next point.

The character who emotionally connects to Zuko?

Well, technically, I'd argue that most members of the Gaang connect emotionally on one level or another with him?

But I'd argue that Aang is the person Zuko connected with the most. Aang is Zuko's parallel. Aang is the first person to reach out to Zuko. Aang is the person who showed mercy to Zuko, multiple times. Aang is the person who valued Zuko's life, the life of someone whose whole life goal is to capture him.

This was also an incredibly important moment to Zuko. This is the thing he brings up when trying to convince the Gaang to let him join.

Zuko: Why aren't you saying anything? You once said you thought we could be friends. You know I have good in me.

The character Zuko feels safest letting his guard down around?

It's Mai. Love her or hate her, her relationship with Zuko is incredibly important to him. Maiko isn't my favourite Zuko ship, in full honesty. But even platonically, Mai and Zuko are one another's reprieve from their respective shitty lives.

People often talk about Katara touching Zuko's scar while discussing healing his scar, however one could argue that she did so as a medical examination. Mai touching Zuko's scar is a casual thing, neither of them really make a big deal of it and that's the beauty of it.

I'm mainly talking out of my own personal experience, as someone with a huge amount of burn scars, but there is a world of difference between someone inspecting my scars like Katara did and simply accepting them as a part of me, like Mai does for Zuko.

With Mai, Zuko isn't the scarred banished prince, Ozai's son or Azula's brother. He's just Zuko. And they speak freely with one another, arguing like real people do. Often, being comfortable having arguments is actually a sign of being comfortable with one another.

The character who helps Zuko heal from his trauma?

Once again, this is a bit of a flawed question. By the end of the show, Zuko isn't even fully healed, in my opinion. He has made leaps and bounds on the road to recovery, but when he will truly heal if ever is yet to be seen.

Zuko's journey to recovery includes plenty of people. This includes Iroh, Aang, Song and Jin. People who show him the error of his coping mechanism. Who challenge his worldview, who coax him out of the his shell of pain and anger.

The character known for showing most compassion to others?

Yes, Katara's compassion is a huge part of her character. Her need to help and protect those who cannot do that for themselves cannot be understated.

But Aang's compassion for others and all beings is just as great, if not greater than Katara's. Compassion and nonviolence are huge parts of his culture and his own philosophy.

Aang: Wait, we can't just leave him here. Sokka: Sure we can. Let's go. Aang :No, if we leave him he'll die. Aang airbends himself off Appa and retrieves Zuko, bringing him to Appa. Sokka: [Sarcastically.] Yeah, this makes a lot of sense. Let's bring the guy who's constantly trying to kill us.

Friendly reminder that Aang could've absolutely wrecked Ozai, but held back because his own moral compass was so powerful. Hell, he was friendly and nice to Azula, the woman who literally killed him.

This is why Aang and Katara work so well together. They're both incredibly compassionate people who will immediately jump in to help others in need. Like they did during the Painted Lady, destroying the factiry together.

The character who primarily bears the burden of having to step up into a parental role?

I think "parental role" is an incredibly vague term. There's a lot of things that go into a "parental role". Katara plays a stereotypically "maternal" role, while someone who plays a "paternal" one would probably be Sokka.

Katara deals with very "homemaking" tasks like sewing and cooking, etc. And Sokka often takes on the role of leader, hunter, gatherer and also protector, despite being a nonbender.

This coincides nicely with their core childhood traumas. The loss of Katara's mother impacted her greatly, leading her to have to step up into a motherly role. While Sokka was clearly heavily traumatised by his father departing and the crushing responsibility of having to care for his entire village.

Sexism also probably played a part in this dichotomy.

The character who represses their emotions to be strong for others?

I'd argue that this could apply to all the members of the Gaang in some capacity.

Aang's pain is something most of us will never experience and cannot hope to understand. The complete horrific destruction of his culture and home followed him through the entire show. He was entitled to his grief and rage, yet he supressed it. We see during Appa's kidnapping, how easy it would be for Aang to rage, to let himself be destructive. And yet, he wakes up every day and chooses to smile and goof off, because his friends need someone to remind them how to be children.

Sokka puts on a very impressive bravado, despite having a lot of insecurities. However, as the oldest member of the Gaang (pre Zuko) he puts on a facade of the confident and unbothered older brother. Even if he's the butt of almost every joke, he still keeps that demeanour up, letting it slip only a few times.

I'd actually argue that Toph is the person whom this label fits best. While we know Toph as witty, callous and strong, we have to remember that she kept up the facade of her parents' good, helpless little blind girl for no reason other than her mother and father's comfort. She actually hides a lot of her hurt, covering it up with a prickly exterior.

I want to do longer think pieces about Toph and Katara so apologies if this isn't complete.

I'm actually baffled by the idea of Katara repressing her emotions. She's actually quite straightforward and open about her feelings. She yells and feels a lot of emotions and lets them be heard. She gets angry and sad. She's actually kinda bitchy sometimes and that's honestly why I love her so much.

The whole inciting incident of the show was her getting so pissed off she somehow pulls a giant iceberg from the bottom of the sea.

She is anything but repressed.

She is angry.

She's angry at the fire nation, at Sokka, at her father, at men, and with good right to be so.

This is what makes her an amazing character and one who broke the mould of a lot of female characters at the time. Her anger and unrestrained emotions rang true with a lot of watchers at the time. I'm not sure why this is being taken away from her rather than celebrated.

I reiterate the point I made at the beginning of this post: there is nothing wrong with headcanons and fanon interpretations for one's enjoyment. I do find it a bit odd when it changes a character too much (because then, why not just create an oc?) but it's all in good fun. However, you shouldn't push that onto other people and how they perceive canon and you certainly shouldn't use it to take away from other characters. It's a very unfair way of entering discourse.

[melu-lis]

it's very telling that zutara, a ship that isn't even canon, gets so much heat for being "problematic" but there isn't the same amount of criticism for how flawed the atla comics were in tackling settler colonialism, bloodbending, a subform created by a genocide survivor, is the only banned form of bending when firebending was used to eliminate an entire race of people, or how uncle iroh lives scot-free in the city he laid siege to.

[kidcaroline]

Them: Aang was useless in the final battle, we could remove him and the heroes would still have won!

The CANON series:

Also Sokka when Ozai was burning literally everything:

Oh yes, Aang is so useless :(

No matter how much THEY try to rewrite the story, the nasty headcanons about Aang will never be real.

Stay pressed

[redrobin-detective]

One of my favorite parts of  Zuko Joins The Gaang Early or other AUs where Zuko breaks free of his brainwashing earlier than in canon is Zuko’s shock at how easy-going and gleeful Iroh is about ���suddenly’ turning traitor. The man has been committing high treason for gotta be years at this point but he’ll pretend otherwise up until the exact moment his nephew’s beliefs start to slip then he’s chugging that treason punch like nobody’s business.

[herbluefire]

if iroh had a daughter that died too, he would've considered azula worth saving

[xxxtanzanitaxxx]

"Iroh is 100% innocent! He was just following orders but Azula is evil and doesn't deserve redemption bc she did what she did just for shits and giggles!"

More dumb bullshit. Both Iroh and Azula did what they did bc they were following orders from their respective fathers so if you're gonna condemn Azula you should condemn Iroh as well.

[ilikepjo24]

Lol another dumb take on reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/s/ER8SmBToSm

WOW! There are so many things to unpack here...

"Iroh, the most-" Iroh!? IROH!? THE Iroh!? The "redeemed" warlord that only gave a fuck about being a warlord after it affected him personally? That Iroh? The Iroh that left a child to bare the weight of a nation just bc he, the mature responsible adult, wanted to sit on his ass instead of being mature and responsible? THAT Iroh? It seems awful like both those actions appear to be those of a selfish and unempathetic person. And let's not forget that even after his "redemption" he assaulted June. So how exactly is he the most understanding and kind person in the show, exactly?

Would you like to know who actually is the most understanding and kind person in the show? AANG.

The boy who found it in himself to forgive and learn to have affection for the dude that chased him around the world and almost hurt/killed him and his friends multiple times. The boy who found it in himself to forgive the nation that genocided his people enough to want to help them, teach them their old ways and bring them back to the light. The boy that found it in himself to spare Ozai, a sadistic, manipulative, abusive warlord that wanted to watch the world burn in an attempt to satisfy his narcissism. And may the record note that Iroh did not extended his own brother the same mercy. He believed Ozai needed to die, when Aang didn't. So Aang is more empathetic, understanding and kind that Iroh.

And do you know what Aang has to say about Azula?

That he believes in her ability to do good and be good. That he trusts her to do so. He could have had her executed. He didn't. He could have taken away her bending. He didn't. He could have said she's born evil and a bad egg. He didn't. He put in a good word for her. He said she did something good. That can be good. THAT'S what the actual most understanding and kind person in the whole franchise has to say about Azula.

"She smiles when-" So did everyone else and so does everyone ever alive when justice is served. Because for the audience, the event was unfair and traumatizing. But for the people of the Fire Nation it was justice. And it's only normal for people to be happy when justice is served. When a groomer goes to jail you don't think "oh, that poor groomer", you think "good, this piece of shit definitely deserved it". Similarly, in the Fire Nation, an imperialistic dictatorship, when someone disrespects their Firelord, which they worship as almost a god (if not more, bc we see them worship their Firelord more often than Agni), and that person gets punished they don't think "oh, that like boy", they think "good, this piece of shit definitely deserved it". That's not called "being a bad egg", that's called propaganda and borderline mass brainwashing.

"She mocks-" She's repeating what she heard from adults in her life. That's not being a bad egg, that's bad parenting.

"She tortures-" Not cannon in any way. We've heard that she threw bread at them. Not only was that told from Zuko's pov, who's known to be a biased narrator when it comes to Azula, but it's also not even that freaking bad. It's bread, when it hits the water it becomes soft. No one ever died because they got hit by a loaf of bread. And she doesn't burn them with.

"Her mother's comments-" Oh, you mean the "what is wrong with that child"? That comment? That comment that was thrown at a child after doing a very normal childlike thing? I used to to play execution with my Barbie dolls and beheading them by pulling off their heads and my least favourites would always be the ones that got executed. Kids break toys they don't value and/or like. Azula is not obligated to like or value a gift that wasn't for her. The doll was a gift for every little girl. It wasn't personal. It wasn't hers. She doesn't have to like or value it. She doesn't have to not break it. The only reason that she chose fire instead of execution is because she had fire handy. That comment Ursa made was absolutely not justified.

"She's never given an excuse-" Not only is this take proof that media literacy is dead, it's flat out anti-intellectualism. We see that Fire Nation schools brainwash kids by shoving propaganda in their faces and we know Azula went in a Fire Nation school. All that's left to do is put 2 and 2 together. It's 4. It's fucking 4. Azula was brainwashed in the Fire Nation school that she went to that brainwashes Fire Nation kids. Canon fact. Use your brain.

"Her vision of what she wants is twisted-" What, exactly, is twisted about wanting to be acknowledged by your family that is proud of you, being loved by your family that is supposed to love you anyway, and completing the mission you've been brainwashed into thinking is the right thing all your life? What is twisted about reaching expectations and having a happy family? I'll wait.

"We're supposed to sympathize with the spi- No, we're not. The spirit is very obviously a liar and a manipulator as we've seen throughout the whole damn comic. And it wants to eat her. The spirit is the villain of the story that has been continuously twisting reality to weaken Azula's ambition and will to fight back, so that it could kill her. By the end of the comic we're supposed to know that the spirit is a full of shit and we shouldn't trust what it says, since all it has said throughout the whole comic is lies. Not sympathize with it.

"Rationalizations of her behavior are believe yet unprovable and based on subtext." It's almost like she's not the main character. The show isn't going to take time diving into her background. They are going to only give us subtext and we have to use our critical thinking skills and come to a believable conclusion, as we do. Zuko loving Ursa isn't outright stated at the show at any point, but we know it's a fact because we see it in the way they interact. We know his mother matters to him because he thinks of her and misses her. That's subtext. And we know Azula is not to blame for the person she was bought up to be because Fire Nation schools canonically brainwash their students. That's subtext. You can't selectively decide that this subtext is enough to prove this point, but that subtext doesn't prove that point because it's not outright stated. That's called double standards.

"The show portrays her as being inherently evi-" The show? You mean the same show that didn't even portray the genocider, treacherous dictator (Sozin) and the abusive, manipulative dictator (Ozai) as inherently evil went out of its way to portray the manipulated, abused, brainwashed child as a bad egg? ...Sure. That's what happened.

"Mai and Ty Lee do the same stuff but are portrayed differ-" No, they are not. Mai is portrayed as somebody who abused the power they have over others, since she views ordering servants around as a fun activity, and as somebody who has no empathy towards their family, as she didn't hesitate to agree that her brother has less worth than a king. Ty Lee is portrayed as sadistic, since she's animated to smirk and sneer while taking down soldiers defending their homes. I think she even goes as far as to mock them at sons point, but take that with a pinch of salt. They are portrayed to be classist, sadistic, unempathetic people that only give a fuck about the select few and mystery everybody else. Y'all just refuse to see it because Ty Lee is cute and is constantly infantilized because of it and because Mai protected your lord and savior, Zuko, right after she was done being classist and unempathetic. They are not portrayed as better, you just go out of your way to portray Azula as worst.

"Even in LoK-" Azula is given Freudian Excuse. You just refuse to see it because, as opposed to Legend of Korra, the creators do not chew your food up and spit it in your mouth for you to swallow. You have to put the pieces of the puzzle together and make realization. Which can understandably be hard for people that have a brain the size of a peanut, like yourself.

"It feels weird for a show like Avatar to imply somebody was evil from birt-" It feels weird because it is weird and it is weird because it's something they would never do which is why they didn't do it. You literally just created this narrative inside of your head while understanding that it goes completely against the philosophy of the show. And now it's weird to you that it doesn't align with the show? Make it make sense.

This isn't asking for an Azula redemption arc (although "this fourteen-year-old who was acting under orders of a tyrannical fire lord can't be redeemed" seems incredibly harsh), this is just me wondering why the writers consistently, across mediums, refuse to suggest that she's even the slightest bit a product of her environment? But Zuko gets a pass for pretty much everything more or less? Alright then lol.

This is close to being the smartest thing you have said during this post. Unfortunately it is easy to notice that some of the creators just don't like Azula. That's it. That's the reason why. They don't like her and they don't want her to have a happy ending. So it's good that somebody else is riding this show now. Faith Erin Hicks, as we see from her comic, is not afraid to treat Azula as the victim she is, and is not afraid to lay the blame on the adults that failed her. As opposed to previous creators, she seems to be willing to apply the general philosophy of the show in Azula's character as well. Which is something she's able to do because Azula is not, in fact, inherently evil. She's a victim of abuse and a manipulated child that has done some very fucked up things but has all her life ahead of her to grow up and be better.

Give us a scene of Ozai molding her into the cruel person she is

Supporting and praising bad behavior is enabling it. A good parent would say "I understand that you were upset at feeling as though you were underestimated when you got efficient results, but it's important to keep your cool and respect your instructors since they have more experience than you. If you feel as though the inability of this instructor to stray from traditional paterns is holding you back, communicate that problem with me, and I'll find you a new teacher if it's necessary." Does Ozai do that? No. What does he do? Praise her. What will Azula do in response? Repeat the same behavior to receive praise again. What is that called? Nursing cruel/bad behavior.

Give us a scene of Azula being at least a normal child at some point.

Stealing sweets at a sleepover and recreating scenes from a movie/play with your sibling? I recall doing both those things as a child. We're talking about universal normal child experiences.

Don't vindicate her mother being cruel.

The narrative itself is not excusing Ursa. Azula herself goes to lengths to hold her accountable, actually. The only ones excusing Ursa's actions are Zuko, who's looking at her through rose colored glasses, because she's one of the first people to show him love, and he wants to sing the best of her, and the fandom, for the same exact reason.

Have Iroh say something slightly more insightful than "she's a crazy bitch leave her alone"

Personally, I don't value Iroh's opinion at all. I think he has to work through the issues that he obviously has with himself, instead of projecting those issues onto Azula, which is what he's doing. But since you care about his opinion so much, here's him saying Azula has the capability to find peace.

Here's an easy one: instead of smiling when Zuko got burnt, Azula looks visually horrified. That tiny, tiny change would've made her far more nuanced! It wouldn't be much, but not only would it make the fire lord's actions seem even worse, it shows us that deep down, she does--or at least, did--care! This is more in line with the show's themes and far more interesting than "she's just gonna be super evil hehe".

Here's the thing. Azula doesn't smile because she's just so "evil hehe". She's smiling because Zuko is receiving a just punishment for his actions. At least as far as she's concerned.

Think about it, in the Fire Nation they treat their King as a god. They pray/say an anthem/swear loyalty to the Firelord and the crown every single day. It should be needless to point out that nobody would question the actions of the Firelord. They would just assume that this is the correct course of action because this is what the Firelord is doing.

Azula not only is a subject of that Firelord but she is the daughter of her father. She was 11 when the Agni Kai. At that age, kids do not question their parents. The think things are right because the parents do it. If Dad is upset with Zuko, then Zuko must have done something wrong, because Dad can't be wrong, he's Dad, he's never wrong.

So both as his daughter and as his subject, Azula has been conditioned from the day she was born to think that he's always right. So when he decides to punish Zuko, that's just another instance where he's right. So why would Azula be upset with him for being right? Especially considering that if she were upset with him, it's possible that you would also receive a punishment for disagreeing with his methods.

So imagine you are Azula. You see your dad, who is always right, and is also your king, who is also always right do something. Anything. Do you think to yourself "Why would he do that? That's bad!" or do you think "He's right for doing what he does because he's always right."? She's under the impression that he's a just ruler and father, so why wouldn't she be satisfied at the sight of him rendering justice to the foolish subject that disobeyed? Especially when having a different opinion can result to being in danger?

Do we get anything from the answer to her personality being "bad egg"?

No, we don't. Which is why this isn't what they did. You just have a false idea of pretty much everything regarding Azula's character and how it was handled.

Thus proven.

[mesapies]

I think it'd be interesting to see iroh/zuko interact with ppl that don't and will never forgive them. And not in a villian trying to take revenge on them type of way. Ppl don't have to forgive the guy that burned down their village, was the direct or indirect reason their loved one died, etc just because they changed.

Especially with iroh living in ba sing se after the war, the same place he tried to conquer 10yrs prior.

There was this small moment in the iroh/june team up comic that came out a little over a month ago but the writing makes it seem like the guy was totally wrong for his hatred of iroh. Now I don't like how it's worded but I like concept of ppl acknowledging that iroh wasn't always a good person and what he has done did and still does effect ppl in their daily lives.

I also wasn't a big fan of the writing here because it almost infantsizes iroh even tho he's a 60yr old man that was a general of a military for years.

Anyways, he lives in the same place where years ago he was the reason of death for ppls siblings, children, parents, significant others, friends. He walks past them everyday. He's probably seen memorials of the ppl who have died during those 600 days. Not even just the soldier but the citizens as well. It was 600 days long, over a year and a half of consent violence, ppl probably starved, especially those living in the outer area. They didn't know if the wall was going to finally crumble and that day was going to be their last. There's no way everybody is just gonna be ok with him living there after the war just because he's good now and sells good tea.

I think there should be ppl that don't like and will never forgive iroh and even zuko for the stuff they've done, no matter what they do to try to make up for it. And they shouldn't be villanized for not forgiving either. Like I said ppl don't have to forgive the guy that harmed them or the ppl they love physically, mentally, or emotionally just because they've changed for the better. Ppl can acknowledge they changed, but that doesn't take away the pain they've caused ppl. There gonna be ppl that forgive them no problem, ppl that don't forgive them right away but later come around, and ppl that won't ever forgive them. I just wish there would be more exploration on ppl that will never forgive them.

[zuko-always-lies]

Azula was already going to break the cycle of abuse (and Zuko maybe won't?)

The Fire Nation royal family has a massive problem with generation after generation abusing its children. Playing favorites to an insane degree is normalized and perpetuated. Azulon blatantly favored Iroh over Ozai, Iroh blatantly favored Zuko over Azula, Ursa blatantly favored Zuko over Azula, and Ozai blatantly favored Azula over Zuko. One child is treated as useful and important, the other rejected and neglected.

Azula grew up in an abusive environment where all of this was normalized. She was only 14, and had never known anything else other than this style of parenting which served to turn one child against the other.. She literally ordered to fight her brother by her father.

Yet, despite all of this, Azula realized that this wasn't right. That she and Zuko should not be at each other's throats. That there was something very wrong with the favoritism. The entire "bring Zuko back with honor" idea was premised on the idea that there didn't need to be a favorite and a scapegoat, that Zuko and her could share Ozai's favor as equals, that Ozai had been wrong to disfavor and discard Zuko like he did.

Azula was obviously a bad person, a deeply flawed person. But if there's one thing she already learned in her heart of hearts in canon, it's that Ozai and Iroh and Ursa and Azulon's style of parental favoritism was deeply, deeply wrong. This is not something she has to learn post-canon, it's something she learned in canon.

I don't think Azula, on the track she was in canon, would ever grow into a great parent, but I am sure that she would never favor one of her children over the other the way that her elders did, that she would ever favor one of her nieces or nephews in that way. She knows better. She's already on track to break the cycle of favoritism.

By contrast, Zuko never learned that this sort of parental favoritism is bad. His problem with Ozai is not that Ozai played favorites, it's that Ozai's favorite was Azula and not him. He never even recognized that violently fighting with Azula was something bad, much less recognized that parental favoritism inevitably turns siblings against each other.

Thus, unless Zuko undergoes more growth post-canon, I think it's extremely likely that he'll fall into the same sort of abusive favoritism toward his children that his forefathers practiced. After all, that's even how his "true father" Iroh acted.

As much as we would like to act otherwise, the cycle of abusive has not been ended. Zuko needs to learn and acknowledge that what all the adults was doing was deeply wrong before he can personally break the cycle.

[rifari2037]

To me, no, they're not.

It's not like Zuko wanted or needed an ideal little sister in his main arc. Whether he had an ideal sister figure or not in his journey, it wouldn't change his storyline at all.

Did Zuko sad or hurt toward Azula after she lied to him and made him a fugitive?

No, he didn't.

Did Zuko sad or hurt toward Azula after she said, "I'm about to celebrate becoming an only child!"??

No, he didn't.

Whatever bad things Azula did to Zuko didn't make him sad or hurt, meaning that the ideal little sister wasn't something Zuko had in mind.

So, having another character to be the ideal little sister for him would be pointless.

And unless you denying what's on the show...

These 👇🏽 scenes not at all siblings would do, or it would be so cringe. You can't imagine Sokka put a betrothal necklace to his sister, or Azula touch his brother's face with thumb on his lips.

These 👇🏽scenes also didn't show how siblings would do (at least on the show), since Sokka and Suki, the canon couple, did the same thing.

Just like this scene 👇🏽didn't show how siblings would do or see each other (at least to me), as it depicts couple in other show.

Beside, how could Katara possibly be the ideal little sister for Zuko, if they couldn't avoid the boyfriend/girlfriend allegations?

- and they always denied it like teenagers hide their feelings.

And I don't think Toph is an ideal little sister for Zuko since they weren't that close to each other. I don't even think Zuko knew her name!

Okay, I know Zuko and Toph had a deep conversation in this scene 👇🏽, but they were talking about Iroh and not his sister.

Isn't that enough to show that he always thought about 'ideal father', not 'ideal little sister'? After all, when Toph tried to open up to Zuko, he ended up shutting her down.

Zuko never showed implicit nor explicit something like, "if only I had a little sister like her...", or "if only my little sister act like her...", or acted brotherly towards them.

It was so different from the way he wanted love from his father. His father figure affected his story a lot. It was the reason he obsessed catching the avatar, it was the reason he betrayed Katara, and it also the reason Zuko realised that his destiny was to help the avatar.

Zuko's needed and wanted an ideal father, he found that from Iroh, showed explicit and implicit on the show.

Zuko : After I leave here today, I'm gonna free Uncle Iroh from his prison and I'm gonna beg for his forgiveness. [Cuts to shot of Ozai.] He's the one who's been a real father to me.

Iroh : [Close-up.] I was never angry with you. I was sad because I was afraid you had lost your way. Zuko : [Side-view of the two.] I did lose my way. Iroh : [Releases him.] But you found it again. [Frontal view.] And you did it by yourself. [Frontal view of Zuko over Iroh's shoulder.] And I am so happy you found your way here. [Side-view. Hugs him again.]

Iroh acted like a father to Zuko, as if he was making amends to his dead son. And Zuko needed a father figure like Iroh to guide him on the right path.

I don't think there's any need to force other characters to be an ideal sister that Zuko didn't want or need for his arc.

[atla-confessions]

Iroh was proudly committing war crimes well into his adult life and only was prompted to start rethinking things when he suffered a personal loss of his own son, so him saying a 14 year old girl who has ruined fewer lives than him is ontologically evil and incapable of change bothered me at first.

But looking back, Iron is a misogynistic creep. So it tracks that he thinks he and Zuko can change no matter how much harm they do or have done, but Azula just inherently can't.

X

[peachi-blossom]

Non-Hazbin Hotel characters that are better than Husk

Again, I'm so confused by Husk's character because he literally victim blamed Angel Dust for being SA'd in episode 4.

Lastly, I'm finding characters that are better than Cherri Bomb, which should be a lot easier.

[transformers0]

And Toph worship.

Toph worship is just as bad as Zuko and Iroh worship.

(I’d argue it’s even worse, since she has far less character development and growth than either Zuko or Iroh.)

The fact that this is also an unpopular opinion from what I've seen in this fandom is really bad, but the most tragic character in the show wasn't Zuko. It was Aang. You know. The literal sole survivor of a freaking genocide.