zuko-always-lies

[zuko-always-lies]

I would highly recommend getting an Ao3 account. The wait isn't that long and the perks are pretty awesome, even if you don't write fics.

[zuko-always-lies]

" Tell Ozai he miscalculated..."

[zuko-always-lies]

I think the southern raiders is the worst episode to use for zutara propaganda cause, if Katara hadn't hated him, like lets say after he saves her life when they're fighting Azula, and she forgives him.

The whole episode wouldn't have happened at all. He didn't give a shit about her mom, or her mom dying, cause it doesn't affect him.

Bro only cared because it was a vehicle that could be used to make her forgive him. Which I think was not the writers intentions but comes off pretty scummy.

X

[zuko-always-lies]

“She needs this, Aang. This is about getting closure and justice.”, only for Aang to respond with, “I don’t think so. I think it’s about getting revenge.”

Just gonna ignore how Katara literally was like yeah maybe it is about revenge so what.

Aang knows what type of person Katara is, Zuko doesn't. Which is why Aang is rightfully calling her out. That's what friends do call you out on your bullshit. Later in the epsiode Aang is like you do you, just don't do something you'll regret, cause again Aang knows what type of person she is.

Zuko doesn't know Katara, he's thinking if I found out who killed my mother, I'd want revenge which he reframes as justice which just goes back to how the fire nation view things and how he was raised.

(No to mention he only does it to get her forgiveness which is ironic, he didn't give a shit about her closure or revenge, but about making her stop being mad at him. If she had killed him, and broke down, you know who wouldn't be able to understand why she's so sad about it, Zuko. He'd be like but you got revenge and closure this is what you wanted, btw are you still mad at me. )

That being said, I hate how this whole episode was used to build up and remind everyone of Aang's believes about killing and justice right before the big finale.

Cause before this episode it hadn't been brought up in ages, and all of a sudden they're like hey here's a reminder of Aangs moral issues, how is it gonna play out dun dun dun.

X

[zuko-always-lies]

If you guys were on here at 11 years old what would you be posting about

[zuko-always-lies]

The Ao3 version even has footnotes now: https://archiveofourown.org/works/65037475 !

But yeah, it kind of does.

Zuko from the unsympathetic perspective

Zuko is a sympathetic character, and he's also someone who receives an extremely sympathetic framing in the narrative. However, it's interesting to consider what his character might look like and be perceived as, based on his canon actions, if he received the sort of framing his relatives Ozai and Azula do, instead of the immense grace the narrative gives him:

"Zuko was born into the royal family, as part of a cadet branch. Growing up, he showed little interest in his studies, his royal duties, or friendship, preferring to pall around with his mother. Zuko refuse to practice the basics of Firebending, preferring the immediate pursuit of power over hard work. When Zuko was 10, his mother went into exile to protect him, and his father usurped Zuko's uncle to ascend as Firelord Ozai."

"Zuko had been far down the order of succession until this point, but now he became crown prince. This did not lead to him taking his studies and duties seriously, but did lead to him becoming obsessed with his power, status, and prerogatives as crown prince. Even though he was only ever directly in line for the throne for a brief portion of his life, this obsession would prove persistent. At 13, it manifested when Zuko forced his way into a war meeting he had been specifically banned from and proceeded to violate etiquette, despite specific warnings not to do so. Ozai felt that Zuko was usurping the Firelord's power, so he ordered Zuko to fight an honor duel. When Zuko thought his enemy was going to be someone weaker than him, he talked big and puffed himself up, but when it turned out he would in fact face someone stronger than him, Firelord Ozai, Zuko proved his cowardice and refused to fight. For this shameful behavior, Ozai burned and exiled Zuko, ordering him to capture the Avatar."

"In Zuko's search for the Avatar, motivated by his desires to regain power, prestige, 'his throne,' and his father's approval, Zuko repeatedly used violence against civilian populations, a tendency that would persist. He was also violent to his own subordinates and servants, and extremely disrespectful to his own uncle, who had dedicated his life to looking after Zuko. Zuko also showed his utter amorality in his pursuit of the Avatar, demonstrating a willingness to commit high treason for the most selfish of reasons."

"This suggests one of Zuko's core characteristics: his wiliness to backstab anyone and everyone on a whim, usually for extremely selfish reasons. Most characters who trust him and turn their back on him end up with a knife in it, for their troubles. This includes even Zuko's beloved uncle, who he claims to love. Many characters show Zuko unsolicited and undeserved kindness, and they almost always come to regret it, as Zuko finds a way to extract a "price" from them for it. Feeding him when he's starving will lead to him stealing from you."

"Ultimately, due to Zuko's shameful behavior, Firelord Ozai declared him a fugitive and ordered Zuko's younger sister to capture him. When she attempted to peacefully apprehend him, he responded by attempting to murder her, an action which caused her to nearly retaliate in kind. This marks a persistent pattern of conflict between Zuko and his sister Azula. Azula was a younger sister born into a highly patriarchal society and family which privileged first-born sons over everything else, so she was always operating at a large disadvantage compared to her brother. However, she was such a capable student, strategist, politician, and bender, while Zuko was so unlikeable, that almost everyone who interacted with the siblings came to vastly prefer Azula over Zuko. Zuko greatly resented this "unnatural" competition from a girl and ultimately came to consistently pursue violence against her as a means to "put her in her place," a pattern that would persist. Zuko's conflict with Azula also likely contributed to his misogyny and violent sexism against other women."

"In the end, despite Zuko's pattern of questionable behavior, Azula (wrongfully) believed Zuko was still loyal in his heart and offered him the opportunity to return home to the Fire Nation as a hero and as crown prince, putting her reputation on the line in the process. This gave Zuko the opportunity get together with his old crush Mai, one of Azula's friends. Zuko took advantage of Azula's offering, but responded to her kindness by lying to her about critical information. Zuko became convinced that his regained status in the Fire Nation depended on the Avatar, a 12 year old who had saved Zuko's life twice, being dead, and hired an assassin to kill him."

"Zuko showed extremely worrying controlling behavior in his relationship Mai, notably reacting violently when she talked to other boys and trying to start a fight between Mai and one of her friends."

"Zuko became unhappy with his father's treatment of him and convinced that Zuko's restored position of prestige would inevitably come to an end when the Avatar turned up alive again. As a result, Zuko betrayed his father and government, throwing his sister under the bus in the process, and allied with his nation's hereditary enemies. This alliance would prove extremely fruitful for Zuko, for it would allow him to become Firelord in a matter of months."

"During Zuko's time with his newfound "friends," he continued to demonstrate the worrisome and questionable patterns of behavior he had shown earlier. He continued his violent confrontations with his sister. When his girlfriend Mai sacrificed herself to protect him, he abandoned her without second thought and showed no interest in rescuing her. When one of his new allies refused to forgive him for his repeated transgressions against her and her friends, he refused to accept this, demanded she forgive him, and dug deep into her trauma in order to convince her to. When a student of his preferred to take a break instead of training, Zuko responded by violently attacking him."

"Ultimately, Zuko's alliance greatly aided him. He was able to take advantage of his sister's mental breakdown to violently "put her in her place" and seize the throne."

Is the above summary really fair for Zuko? God no. It omits a lot of stuff that was included to make him more sympathetic. Is it entirely based on his actions in canon? Yes. Does it demonstrate how easy it would be to demonize Zuko with a small shift in framing? God yes. Does it basically reflect the sort of framing Ozai and Azula get in the show? God yes.

[zuko-always-lies]

Thinking a lot about Ozai and Azula’s relationship post-canon. How did it change? What aspects stayed the same? In my fic I try and hold space for it to be several ways all at once. She loses respect for what he becomes but still struggles to find a path for herself without his influence. She mourns the loss of what could have been but begins to see that it never really was. I’m curious if you all have good examples of their post-canon relationship written with complexity that resonate with you—please share! Thanks!

Watched. Cornered. Hounded. Visions of prison bars flicker in the negative space throughout the palace. Her father is no help, drowning in his own despair. He clings to her ankles to drag her beneath the tides. “Neither of us would be here if you hadn’t failed against your treasonous brother,” he spits from his cell. And she hates it—hates the word us coming from his lips. (Hates most how desperately she has longed to hear it.) She stares through him and finds no trace of herself mirrored back in his features. “You’re a disgrace now,” she says. “Azula!” But she is already gone.

[zuko-always-lies]

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[zuko-always-lies]

I think my name is fairly self-explanatory? There was (and still is) a big thing in the fandom about everyone obsessing over "Azula always lies," like "Zuko Alone" is some sort of completely unbiased perspective on Azula instead of Zuko's quite limited and skewed understanding, so I thought it would be funny to turn that on its head, since Zuko lies plenty of times in the series himself (he does kind of suck at it, though).

I'm not going to tag anyone but if you see this post, feel free to jump in.

Hey! Tag Game!

I'm gonna try to start one of these lmao

Reblog with the story behind your username

In Breath of the Wild, Urbosa calls Zelda her little bird, I modified it and stole it basically. sometimes I am also Birb because it's just funny

@itsa-thing @i-love-zelda-16 @fithesworddweller @alientheoristemmy @lizzable @astoria-nyx-moon @amayis-bigtower @loaboo @preposterousray @stargazin-on-mars @rav3nz3r0 @crims0nr0s3 @clowncore09 anybody else that feels like sharing ig

[zuko-always-lies]

But I see people treating them as if they’re real and it always ends up becoming a huge deal.

All the things you described in that ask are examples of purity culture. What you actually hate is purity culture (which is a based take). But you're applying it incorrectly. You're not seeing the wider issue (which, as I stated, is purity culture).

Plenty of people get mad at people hating fictional characters and then not admitting it's just because they hate them (which is fine). Instead, the haters try to back up their hate with vibes and shitty takes that aren't supposed in whatever canon.

For example:

I hate Iroh, because I dislike his character and find him annoying. - fine

I hate Iroh, because of how hypocritical he is! He runs a teashop in the city he besieged for two years, and people are fine with that? Why? He slaughtered thousands of their residents, only stopping when the war affected him personally, as though nobody else had a family! - fine

I hate Iroh, because he's a stupid jerk and a loser! - not fine, [citation needed]

Certainly people get mad for purity reasons as well, but those are mostly antishippers and their opinions are to be disregarded on that basis alone.

X

[zuko-always-lies]

I'm going to be honest for me most of the characters I ended up hating in ATLA are not even because of the characters but their stans. Like I was pretty neutral on Zuko when watching the show (I have my prefered tropes and he doesn't meet them but it's whatever) but I didn't HATE him. He had his bad moments I couldn't help but roll my eyes at but again it was whatever. Seeing his stans though? Gosh, makes me want him to suffer forever just to see them whine and throw hissy fits. Like if we're talking about whose stans hate what characters Zuko stans are easily a top 3 in hating/finding faults in everyone else/making excuses. Yeah yeah not everyone is the same no generalisation blah blah blah. Still. It's not only Zuko, I have this with other characters' stans too but I think Zuko is the most obvious one for me because it spills over casual fans too. It's just hard to exist in this fandom if you don't care about Zuko / try to criticize anything he ever did / don't think his redemption arc is the best redemption of all time (it's not)

X

[zuko-always-lies]

"Even my early fics, from before the show ended or the six months afterward, still get sooooo many kudos on AO3.

So I definitely have, even disregarding that I've been posting meta and analyses the whole time as well."

Wow! It's so cool to meet someone who has been active in ATLA fandom before the show even ended.

So I have to ask, what was fandom like in the lead up to Sozin's Comet and the early months afterwards? Have any fandom trends or headcanons persisted today? I am particularly interested in what people thought about Azula since it seems like fandom's opinions on her underwent a massive shift after the Netflix revival.

Did people think she suffered from long-term mental health issues like the Yang comics eventually canonized, or was her insanity just stress induced psychosis? Did they see her as product of nature or nurture?

Also, what did people think about how the process of de-colonization and de-Sozination would go? Did fandom's consensus map onto what was eventually canonized in the comics and roleplaying game?

Finally, what did people think Aang's reincarnation would be like, as well as the world they would inhabit? Did any of fandom's headcanons end up being reflected in Korra, and if so, to what degree?

Hey, sorry that it took so much time to respond to this! My health has been very... eh.

What was fandom like in the lead up to Sozin's Comet?:

So there was a lot of frustration aimed at Nickelodeon because they'd aired everything up to DoBS and then randomly stopped for over seven months, after holding onto S3 for nearly ten months to begin with. In fact, the following episodes were released on DVD before they even aired on TV:

- The Western Air Temple

- The Firebending Masters

- The Boiling Rock (both parts!)

So there was a ton of discourse about spoilers as well, and if you look back at fics from 2008-2009 people will warn about spoilers for those episodes if relevant.

It was probably the worst time to be an Avatar fan, except possibly during S4 of Korra, which Nick wouldn't air at all and instead just released online, because of those wacky homosexuals.

Have thoughts on Azula changed?

I actually answered another ask about that here!

Did people think her mental health issues would be long-term?

I certainly did, though I have permanent mental health issues myself, so that could be an influence! I think the general take at the time was yes. If people tried to diagnose her, they often went to schizophrenia, although at the time, you had to be 18 irl to receive that diagnosis if your provider was using the current DSM? (That changed in 2013.) I personally think if she "has" anything, she's more schizoaffective + C-PTSD + a dissociative disorder of some kind. But I'm open to takes of it being a one-off stress induced psychotic break as well.

Was she considered a product of nature or nurture?

I feel like I was pretty alone in considering it to be largely nurture at the time. I wasn't actually alone, but the fandom at large definitely viewed her as an irredeemable psychopath by and large. Actually, Bryke mentioned in an interview in like 2010 or so that it was explicitly intended to be nurture, but were largely ignored. Maybe it was the first edition of the art book?

How did people think decolonization/de-Sozinification would go?

I don't recall this really being even thought of in-depth until The Promise released. The idea of colonialism and indigenous rights hadn't really permeated the fandom before that, probably due to both the overall young age it encompassed at the time, as well as those being newer concepts at the time. If you read a lot of early fanfic that goes into post-canon, it's either really vague, or the politics don't hold up at all. Not universally true, but the vast majority.

How did people imagine Aang's reincarnation and their era? Were any of these thoughts borne out in Korra?

Most fic focused exclusively on Aang. I didn't see much speculative "previous/future Avatar" genre fic until Korra basically made it a thing. However, everyone was pretty taken aback at the rapid industrialization and leap in technology that Korra portrayed, as I recall. In fact, that's still a (less common) criticism today.

I enjoy your fic a lot, btw!

[zuko-always-lies]

Aang and Zuko both have psychotic breakdowns in the series, but Azula is the only one treated as "crazy."

I've long had a general distaste for reducing Azula to "Zuko's crazy sister. " Doubly so now that every post-series story has doubled down on it.

Having a psychotic break is not a death sentence, but good grief do some people salivate for that idea to be true. Azula had a psychotic break for very understandable reasons. She'd been betrayed by everyone she loved, especially her brother, who she'd stuck her neck out for to bring him home. And she has the realization that her father didn't love her anymore than he loved Zuko.

All this amidst a war effort that was falling apart.

People crack under pressure. People have psychotic breaks all the time, then go back to living normal lives, even if they haven't treated the conditions that brought on the event.

And everything we saw of Azula through out the entire series before the finale is of someone with high mental fortitude and discipline, especially in the face of danger. She was not 'crazy all along' or a 'ticking time bomb'.

In fact, she's the only one who suffers permanent consequences over it. Let's not forget that when Zuko did his one good thing and released Appa, he immediately got violently ill from the cognitive dissonance. Aang literally has a sleep deprivation induced psychotic break right before the Day of Black Sun, and it just gets played for laughs.

[zuko-always-lies]

It occurs to me that the way LoK presents Kuvira is quite confused, since we're basically told we should have immense sympathy for her (despite her being a tyrant and a dictator) but not really ever shown any reason we should. Thoughts on this?

In Rote? Absolutely.

In B4? Eh. I don't know, I guess. I wouldn't say we are ever told to have immense sympathy for her. She's given a somewhat sad backstory, and 2 characters are shown to have compassion for her. But I think it's much too vague to feel like any opinion on her is actively being pushed.

Like, to me, the final scene of Kuvira's breakdown and Korra's subsequent compassion towards her was more a scene to showcase Korra's growth through the series. It's not that we're supposed to feel bad for Kuvira, it's that Korra understands how she feels and is able to empathise, despite Kuvira being a shitty person. I do have my issues with Korra's arc in B4, and the whole "you needed to be tortured until you learn compassion and humbleness" thing, but I do think the scene between Korra and Kuvira is a good character moment for her.

The other scenes in which we have a character express sympathy for Kuvira is when Su is talking about her, but that is once again more something to do with Su having a soft spot for Kuvira, despite what people may think.

[zuko-always-lies]

Like Korra's story is actually like so sad raised in a fortified compound far away from the rest of her tribe denied access to people her age and even her parents apparently taught to obey the white lotus taught her only value is from her role as avatar relentlessly trained from when she was young

it's funny that Aang gets so much criticism for being a bad father when all his friends literally decided "hey let's abuse his reincarnation" like the moment he croaked

[zuko-always-lies]

it's funny that Aang gets so much criticism for being a bad father when all his friends literally decided "hey let's abuse his reincarnation" like the moment he croaked