#zuko critical

[formercreepypastakid]

having some thoughts about Katara lately, specifically about the "Katara keeps the burn scars aang gave her" headcanon and why it is compelling to me

- It forces her to grapple with the truth that Aang, someone she loves, has hurt her, and that that is fine. It's okay to forgive even while not forgetting

- It deepens her conflicting relationship with fire and fire bending, something she both needs and sees the good in, yet has been hurt by

- It can even deepen her relationship with Aang, showing his growth in seeing the hurt he has caused her and also acknowledging all he has given up for her (namely the Avatar state)

- It's more than just "sharing scars with zuko" but forcing zuko to further face how his element, when treated with disrespect, can cause hurt, especially to those he loves

- Lasting consequences for Aang's mistakes: Every time he looks at her hands, he is reminded of how much power he has as the Avatar, and how he can't afford to play around with it

- Further developing Katara's healing powers, showcasing how they start out weak, barely able to relieve her pain and evolves to the point where she can bring back Aang basically from the dead

[ilikepjo24]

Lol another dumb take on reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/s/ER8SmBToSm

WOW! There are so many things to unpack here...

"Iroh, the most-" Iroh!? IROH!? THE Iroh!? The "redeemed" warlord that only gave a fuck about being a warlord after it affected him personally? That Iroh? The Iroh that left a child to bare the weight of a nation just bc he, the mature responsible adult, wanted to sit on his ass instead of being mature and responsible? THAT Iroh? It seems awful like both those actions appear to be those of a selfish and unempathetic person. And let's not forget that even after his "redemption" he assaulted June. So how exactly is he the most understanding and kind person in the show, exactly?

Would you like to know who actually is the most understanding and kind person in the show? AANG.

The boy who found it in himself to forgive and learn to have affection for the dude that chased him around the world and almost hurt/killed him and his friends multiple times. The boy who found it in himself to forgive the nation that genocided his people enough to want to help them, teach them their old ways and bring them back to the light. The boy that found it in himself to spare Ozai, a sadistic, manipulative, abusive warlord that wanted to watch the world burn in an attempt to satisfy his narcissism. And may the record note that Iroh did not extended his own brother the same mercy. He believed Ozai needed to die, when Aang didn't. So Aang is more empathetic, understanding and kind that Iroh.

And do you know what Aang has to say about Azula?

That he believes in her ability to do good and be good. That he trusts her to do so. He could have had her executed. He didn't. He could have taken away her bending. He didn't. He could have said she's born evil and a bad egg. He didn't. He put in a good word for her. He said she did something good. That can be good. THAT'S what the actual most understanding and kind person in the whole franchise has to say about Azula.

"She smiles when-" So did everyone else and so does everyone ever alive when justice is served. Because for the audience, the event was unfair and traumatizing. But for the people of the Fire Nation it was justice. And it's only normal for people to be happy when justice is served. When a groomer goes to jail you don't think "oh, that poor groomer", you think "good, this piece of shit definitely deserved it". Similarly, in the Fire Nation, an imperialistic dictatorship, when someone disrespects their Firelord, which they worship as almost a god (if not more, bc we see them worship their Firelord more often than Agni), and that person gets punished they don't think "oh, that like boy", they think "good, this piece of shit definitely deserved it". That's not called "being a bad egg", that's called propaganda and borderline mass brainwashing.

"She mocks-" She's repeating what she heard from adults in her life. That's not being a bad egg, that's bad parenting.

"She tortures-" Not cannon in any way. We've heard that she threw bread at them. Not only was that told from Zuko's pov, who's known to be a biased narrator when it comes to Azula, but it's also not even that freaking bad. It's bread, when it hits the water it becomes soft. No one ever died because they got hit by a loaf of bread. And she doesn't burn them with.

"Her mother's comments-" Oh, you mean the "what is wrong with that child"? That comment? That comment that was thrown at a child after doing a very normal childlike thing? I used to to play execution with my Barbie dolls and beheading them by pulling off their heads and my least favourites would always be the ones that got executed. Kids break toys they don't value and/or like. Azula is not obligated to like or value a gift that wasn't for her. The doll was a gift for every little girl. It wasn't personal. It wasn't hers. She doesn't have to like or value it. She doesn't have to not break it. The only reason that she chose fire instead of execution is because she had fire handy. That comment Ursa made was absolutely not justified.

"She's never given an excuse-" Not only is this take proof that media literacy is dead, it's flat out anti-intellectualism. We see that Fire Nation schools brainwash kids by shoving propaganda in their faces and we know Azula went in a Fire Nation school. All that's left to do is put 2 and 2 together. It's 4. It's fucking 4. Azula was brainwashed in the Fire Nation school that she went to that brainwashes Fire Nation kids. Canon fact. Use your brain.

"Her vision of what she wants is twisted-" What, exactly, is twisted about wanting to be acknowledged by your family that is proud of you, being loved by your family that is supposed to love you anyway, and completing the mission you've been brainwashed into thinking is the right thing all your life? What is twisted about reaching expectations and having a happy family? I'll wait.

"We're supposed to sympathize with the spi- No, we're not. The spirit is very obviously a liar and a manipulator as we've seen throughout the whole damn comic. And it wants to eat her. The spirit is the villain of the story that has been continuously twisting reality to weaken Azula's ambition and will to fight back, so that it could kill her. By the end of the comic we're supposed to know that the spirit is a full of shit and we shouldn't trust what it says, since all it has said throughout the whole comic is lies. Not sympathize with it.

"Rationalizations of her behavior are believe yet unprovable and based on subtext." It's almost like she's not the main character. The show isn't going to take time diving into her background. They are going to only give us subtext and we have to use our critical thinking skills and come to a believable conclusion, as we do. Zuko loving Ursa isn't outright stated at the show at any point, but we know it's a fact because we see it in the way they interact. We know his mother matters to him because he thinks of her and misses her. That's subtext. And we know Azula is not to blame for the person she was bought up to be because Fire Nation schools canonically brainwash their students. That's subtext. You can't selectively decide that this subtext is enough to prove this point, but that subtext doesn't prove that point because it's not outright stated. That's called double standards.

"The show portrays her as being inherently evi-" The show? You mean the same show that didn't even portray the genocider, treacherous dictator (Sozin) and the abusive, manipulative dictator (Ozai) as inherently evil went out of its way to portray the manipulated, abused, brainwashed child as a bad egg? ...Sure. That's what happened.

"Mai and Ty Lee do the same stuff but are portrayed differ-" No, they are not. Mai is portrayed as somebody who abused the power they have over others, since she views ordering servants around as a fun activity, and as somebody who has no empathy towards their family, as she didn't hesitate to agree that her brother has less worth than a king. Ty Lee is portrayed as sadistic, since she's animated to smirk and sneer while taking down soldiers defending their homes. I think she even goes as far as to mock them at sons point, but take that with a pinch of salt. They are portrayed to be classist, sadistic, unempathetic people that only give a fuck about the select few and mystery everybody else. Y'all just refuse to see it because Ty Lee is cute and is constantly infantilized because of it and because Mai protected your lord and savior, Zuko, right after she was done being classist and unempathetic. They are not portrayed as better, you just go out of your way to portray Azula as worst.

"Even in LoK-" Azula is given Freudian Excuse. You just refuse to see it because, as opposed to Legend of Korra, the creators do not chew your food up and spit it in your mouth for you to swallow. You have to put the pieces of the puzzle together and make realization. Which can understandably be hard for people that have a brain the size of a peanut, like yourself.

"It feels weird for a show like Avatar to imply somebody was evil from birt-" It feels weird because it is weird and it is weird because it's something they would never do which is why they didn't do it. You literally just created this narrative inside of your head while understanding that it goes completely against the philosophy of the show. And now it's weird to you that it doesn't align with the show? Make it make sense.

This isn't asking for an Azula redemption arc (although "this fourteen-year-old who was acting under orders of a tyrannical fire lord can't be redeemed" seems incredibly harsh), this is just me wondering why the writers consistently, across mediums, refuse to suggest that she's even the slightest bit a product of her environment? But Zuko gets a pass for pretty much everything more or less? Alright then lol.

This is close to being the smartest thing you have said during this post. Unfortunately it is easy to notice that some of the creators just don't like Azula. That's it. That's the reason why. They don't like her and they don't want her to have a happy ending. So it's good that somebody else is riding this show now. Faith Erin Hicks, as we see from her comic, is not afraid to treat Azula as the victim she is, and is not afraid to lay the blame on the adults that failed her. As opposed to previous creators, she seems to be willing to apply the general philosophy of the show in Azula's character as well. Which is something she's able to do because Azula is not, in fact, inherently evil. She's a victim of abuse and a manipulated child that has done some very fucked up things but has all her life ahead of her to grow up and be better.

Give us a scene of Ozai molding her into the cruel person she is

Supporting and praising bad behavior is enabling it. A good parent would say "I understand that you were upset at feeling as though you were underestimated when you got efficient results, but it's important to keep your cool and respect your instructors since they have more experience than you. If you feel as though the inability of this instructor to stray from traditional paterns is holding you back, communicate that problem with me, and I'll find you a new teacher if it's necessary." Does Ozai do that? No. What does he do? Praise her. What will Azula do in response? Repeat the same behavior to receive praise again. What is that called? Nursing cruel/bad behavior.

Give us a scene of Azula being at least a normal child at some point.

Stealing sweets at a sleepover and recreating scenes from a movie/play with your sibling? I recall doing both those things as a child. We're talking about universal normal child experiences.

Don't vindicate her mother being cruel.

The narrative itself is not excusing Ursa. Azula herself goes to lengths to hold her accountable, actually. The only ones excusing Ursa's actions are Zuko, who's looking at her through rose colored glasses, because she's one of the first people to show him love, and he wants to sing the best of her, and the fandom, for the same exact reason.

Have Iroh say something slightly more insightful than "she's a crazy bitch leave her alone"

Personally, I don't value Iroh's opinion at all. I think he has to work through the issues that he obviously has with himself, instead of projecting those issues onto Azula, which is what he's doing. But since you care about his opinion so much, here's him saying Azula has the capability to find peace.

Here's an easy one: instead of smiling when Zuko got burnt, Azula looks visually horrified. That tiny, tiny change would've made her far more nuanced! It wouldn't be much, but not only would it make the fire lord's actions seem even worse, it shows us that deep down, she does--or at least, did--care! This is more in line with the show's themes and far more interesting than "she's just gonna be super evil hehe".

Here's the thing. Azula doesn't smile because she's just so "evil hehe". She's smiling because Zuko is receiving a just punishment for his actions. At least as far as she's concerned.

Think about it, in the Fire Nation they treat their King as a god. They pray/say an anthem/swear loyalty to the Firelord and the crown every single day. It should be needless to point out that nobody would question the actions of the Firelord. They would just assume that this is the correct course of action because this is what the Firelord is doing.

Azula not only is a subject of that Firelord but she is the daughter of her father. She was 11 when the Agni Kai. At that age, kids do not question their parents. The think things are right because the parents do it. If Dad is upset with Zuko, then Zuko must have done something wrong, because Dad can't be wrong, he's Dad, he's never wrong.

So both as his daughter and as his subject, Azula has been conditioned from the day she was born to think that he's always right. So when he decides to punish Zuko, that's just another instance where he's right. So why would Azula be upset with him for being right? Especially considering that if she were upset with him, it's possible that you would also receive a punishment for disagreeing with his methods.

So imagine you are Azula. You see your dad, who is always right, and is also your king, who is also always right do something. Anything. Do you think to yourself "Why would he do that? That's bad!" or do you think "He's right for doing what he does because he's always right."? She's under the impression that he's a just ruler and father, so why wouldn't she be satisfied at the sight of him rendering justice to the foolish subject that disobeyed? Especially when having a different opinion can result to being in danger?

Do we get anything from the answer to her personality being "bad egg"?

No, we don't. Which is why this isn't what they did. You just have a false idea of pretty much everything regarding Azula's character and how it was handled.

Thus proven.

[zuko-always-lies]

I think we need to make a list of all the cruelest things Zuko does over the course of the series. Not the worst things he does but the cruelest and meanest. Just so we have something to reference when someone goes "look how mean Azula is, she's inherently evil."

[the-genius-az]

As someone who has really low empathy and is a selfish person, I can say....ZUKO IS AS APATHETIC AS AZULA

First, constantly belittling/brushing Azula off when they were kids

Him constantly blowing into people's faces when he doesn't get what he wants

His shallow responses. "You burned down my village" "Oh, sorry." YOU DESTROYED SUKI'S ENTIRE LIFE WHAT DO YOU MEAN "OH, SORRY"

Also, "That's rough, buddy." Dude, someone's girlfriend literally ceased to exit, show some respect at least

People brush it off as just him being an angry, broken teen. Guess who is one as well?

He had a chance of learning to empathize, how to properly connect to people, and to have meaningful connections. He even had a role model (Iroh)

If he didn't, hw would probably very similar to Azula

You are very right!

And yes, I agree a lot.

I honestly can't understand how others say Zuko is very empathetic and gentle with people... bro, are we talking about the same character?

Sometimes they forget that Zuko is "literally" the personification of a forest fire.

Sometimes people forget that Zuko is also Ozai's son.

And I'm not saying this because the sins of the fathers fall on the children, but rather he was literally raised from a war with a fucking psychopath with a God complex.

[waywardbananawolf]

I know I'm overanalyzing things but the Kyoshi Warriors being in the Fire Nation as the fire lord's guard is one of the dumbest political suicides I've ever read. Really?

A paramilitary group from the earth kingdom and cultist of the Avatar Kyoshi can be seen as an attack on the sovereignty and ideology of the Fire Nation and a direct message from the Fire Lord to his nation in which he implies that the leader does not trust their people. and it hilariously makes the narrative have Zuko come to power thanks to a coup d'état sponsored by Foreigners, leaving him in a position of puppet of the avatar (which he is) and no real local support.

This is literally a powder keg for the armed uprising against Zuko and surely the resumption of political power by Azula.

[millyblank]

Female characters' worth are not defined by how they treat zuko!

I'm tired of this Fandom decrying a character as evil or awful just because they don't fawn over zuko or validate every one of his complaints.

[atla-confessions]

In the beach episode Mai told Zuko that he shouldn't use his past to justify being toxic and violent and taking out his aggression and vitriol and anger on people who haven't hurt him while also expecting them to automatically excuse and forgive it because of said past.

And people call Mai abusive for that.

That's so wild. She's just correct. At this point they're just mad because Mai holds Zuko accountable and wants him to grow as a person because she loves him and knows he can be better. And then they blame Mai for somehow forcing Zuko to do the bad things she explicitly put her foot down to call him out on?

X

[fishyupmywishy]

Zuko being Fire Lord has to be the funniest thing on earth because absolutely no one knows who he is in the Fire Nation.

Think about it: A 13 year old boy has been banished and had been gone for three years. As far as the Fire Nation is concerned, he no longer exists there.

When Zuko became Fire Lord (ignoring the comics because they’re just wrong) I’d like to imagine that there was a lot of pushback and there was definitely some sort of uprising that might have happened, or at least thought about among the people. The Fire Nation had just been freed from a terrible and cruel monarch, they don’t want or need another. So when this sixteen year old boy comes out of nowhere, despite being the prince, no one knows anything about him. He hadn’t done much of anything to prove that he would have been a good Fire Lord in any sense.

All he had was the Avatar to back him up but even then, Aang is just a 12 year old boy. A 12 year old boy that had been trapped for a hundred years. So he doesn’t know anything about politics or ruling a country, especially in that era.

Zuko becoming Fire Lord was also straight up terrible for the Nation because he most likely didn’t keep up with Fire Nation politics either due to being so focused on capturing Aang.

Realistically, the Fire Nation would have been in shambles because there’s no way a 16 year old with no knowledge of politics or on how to lead would have ever managed to keep an entire country together.

[akiizayoi4869]

I really wanted to slap Zuko when he said this to Aang. Like dude, you do realize that the dead nation that you are making fun of is dead thanks to your family, right? The very same family who has profited from the deaths of the air nomads and countless others for a 100 years since the war started? Kindly shut the fuck up. He's lucky Aang didn't get pissed with him and decide to kick him out of the group. He would have been completely justified.

[umalvie]

to me, zuko’s relationship with toph is so antagonistic on his behalf because she’s the one member of the gaang (outside of suki who he simply doesn’t consider to be in the gaang tbh) who he least empathizes with, at large and in relation to her trauma. the reason for this is that unlike aang’s, katara’s, and sokka’s traumas which he sympathizes with + connects his trauma to in various ways of arguable aptness, zuko is uncomfortable with the striking closeness of toph’s trauma to his because of how class and privilege factor into their both of their trauma. aang, katara, and sokka are not privileged in any real way, esp not one that reminds him at all of his situation re status and privilege.

zuko finds aang, katara, and sokka's trauma relatable on a level that makes him feel equally victim of the fire nation; that's why he draws lines between kya being murdered in an ongoing genocide to protect katara and ursa, who was certainly not anti imperialism from anything we've seen of her, disappearing to protect him from his abusive father and grandfather. both situations are unpleasant and involve maternal sacrifice, but one is a domestic ordeal while the other is an act of racial violence and genocide. the connection exists, but the context is radically different. still, zuko likes that he can draw those parallels between his trauma and katara's. it allows him more room to feel like a better victim and arguably a bigger one in the context of the war, despite the fact that his status means he did in many ways benefit from his family and country being the perpetrators of it and his own personal role in it throughout books 1, 2, and 3.

i will give the obligatory disclaimer that zuko is a child soldier and he does side with the oppressed in the end, but he himself is not oppressed by the fire nation's genocidal war as a fire nation prince, let alone when he is the fire nation crown prince. he is someone who directly benefited from this war. yes, his father was abusive, yes, he was exiled for 2 and a half years, but he was still afforded many privileges because of the war. that does not negate his domestic suffering or his political exile, but those privileges still came about because of the suffering of others, including the gaang.

this is a nuanced situation. it is extremely complex and hard to accept the simultaneous truths at play here, even for adults, let alone for an extremely traumatized, black and white thinking 16 year old boy. zuko needs to be a victim in the context of the war as well as his family to alleviate his guilt about his participation in it prior to joining the gaang. he needs to relate his trauma to theirs. i will say that he doesn't ever seem to attempt this with suki nor does she offer her trauma to him, but that's more about both the writers and zuko not caring much if at all for her as a person.

but toph receives clear rejection from zuko when she tries to relate to him. her attempts to endear herself to him and to open up to him are shot down. why? surely toph suffered because of the war too. she's from the earth kingdom. but she never suffered a personal loss that zuko respected or related to. toph is not given any dead relatives. she was abused but not in a way zuko would understand, and her abuse did not negate that she lived a relatively comfortable life for being in the earth kingdom during the war. she was rich, she was cared for, she was shielded by privilege in many ways. while zuko is of course far richer than toph, he doesn't want to confront that reality. he doesn't want her privilege to make his obvious. he needs to focus on his suffering, his abusive father, his struggling to fit in as heir, and his time in exile and poverty. he can't accept the idea of those struggles coexisting with his privilege, so he can't accept the idea of toph's either. she has to just be whining about nothing. she has to be a nuisance not to be taken seriously. otherwise, he has to turn and face things about himself he doesn't want to be true.

could he grow to care about her and face his own privilege in the future? sure. but he doesn't in canon.

[innocentimouto]

Some atla opinions that I feel like have been explained in old posts

Aang supported, respected, and comforted Katara throughout the series.

The first one to ever trust or help Zuko was Aang.

Everyone in the Gaang did chores, not just Katara.

Katara comforted many characters, not just Aang.

Appa should have been afraid of Zuko.

Sokka is not a good judge of character.

Sokka should have been the one to go with Katara to face Yon Rha.

Toph is bratty.

Toph didn't care about the war.

Haru showed a lot of hatred for the Fire Nation.

Hahn was a missed opportunity. And so was every ek kid.

Katara was the only normal one for not trusting Zuko.

There are more pros than cons in keeping Jet alive for the plot.

Jet was a great leader.

All the Freedom Fighters were fine with flooding the village.

Ty Lee can be cruel.

Mai was friends with Azula, willingly.

Suki deserved more development.

Jin should have gotten the chance to confront Zuko over Ba Sing Se.

Teo should have made plans with Sokka.

Hakoda should have praised Katara for her bending.

Hakoda should have been able to fight in the finale.

The White Lotus made a lot of characters look worse.

The only actions Zuko regretted were the ones against Iroh.

Zuko was fully prepared to capture Appa and use him as bait by any means necessary (ie firebending).

Iroh is a hypocrite.

Azula was abused.

Azula lost many times.

Bloodbending isn't evil.

Book 3 was rushed.

[coconutsaiyan]

I love Zuko but the fandom has a major problem infantilizing him

[ilikepjo24]

Iroh: Why can't you just accept that he might be living a good, honest life?

Azula: Because I wanted that brother! I wanted the brother that gave me piggy back rides and played with me, instead of yelling at me all the time and telling be to buzz off. Why does Kiyi get that brother?

Iroh:...

Azula: If Zuko's changed, then that means he was always capable of changing. I just wasn't with changing for.

[zuko-always-lies]

The contrast between Zuko spending an entire episode basically demanding Katara forgive him and carefully plotting a scheme to get her to murder Yon Rha so she'd like him vs. him completely abandoning Mai, never showing the least desire to rescue her, and seeming completely to forget she exists even though she sacrificed herself to save him the previous episode.

[phoukanamedpookie]

ATLA Fandom Stop Giving Other Characters' Superlative Attributes To Zuko Challenge 2k24

[ididgettomeetyou]

I'm over the whole Katara needs to keep her burns from Aang so he can learn a lesson and she can bond with zuko when its not like Zuko ever paid attention to being careful around katara/other people he could have easily burnt her in episode 2 .. no one ever talks about how katara should get burns from Zuko to teach him a lesson because it always about making katara bond with zuko in the end its never about teaching aang a lesson its about giving katara a reason to resent aang

aang did his best to protect people.. Aang was never unemphatic as people claim he had a big heart since the beginning