#anti she hulk

[kathrahender]

Female Characters in Media and how they should write them better (and their relationship with other characters too)

One of the things that upsets me is how women are depicted in media. Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike some female characters for being female (like someone could think), I'm not a misogynist person. I dislike them for not being good characters. For being poorly written (in my opinion). If you want to keep reading, prepare yourself, because this would be long (?

First, the "girl with a crush" type of female character.

Some of the female characters are always following their crush wherever he goes, sometimes saying his name a lot of times in the show, and her life is almost centered in living for her crush and nothing else. Like they have no purpose except being around her crush. They (the female characters) care about her crush more than they care about anyone else (even their own family). Sometimes they care about their crush more than her own future. They care more about having (or not having) a future with her crush than they care about having a degree/a job.

And I hate those kind of female characters, because a woman's life shouldn't be determined by a man. They should be independent people centered in being successful in life, not being centered in having or not having a future with the man they like. And if the man they like doesn't feel the same/doesn't pay attention to them, then leave him alone (after all, he's not the only man in the world, is he?) or don't force the situation, just let it flow. If the man is meant to love them back, then he would do it. If he isn't meant to love them, they shouldn't waste time thinking about how their relationship could work. And if they are dating another person, they definitely shouldn't try to separate them (or actually separate them) because then their "love" towards the man they like wouldn't be "love" but obsession or the "if I can't have you, no one can" type of love.

Secondly, the "girl who is just the love interest" type of female character.

This is the type of character who is weak, dependent, and everytime they need saving. They add nothing to the plot except being the love interest. You could remove them and the only thing that would happen is that the hero wouldn't have a love interest. That's all. They are the type of character who do nothing important in the plot. They are in the show just to fullfill the "male character ending with a female character before the show ends" trope. They aren't strong, they aren't "useful", their existence is basically based in having to be saved, crying, or making stupid things to make the audience "laugh" or feel sympathy for her.

And I also hate this type of character. A female character shouldn't be in a show just to make the audience laugh. They shouldn't be in a show just to be the love interest. What you're implying with those type of characters is that a female character can't be nothing else than a non-important sub-plot. They can't be strong, they can't save the day, and they can't be fighters because "Oh my god, they're women, how could they be an important part of the war? 😡😡". And that's bullshit. Women can be strong and should be strong in media. Women should be and deserve to be important in the main plot. Women should save the day and they deserve it. Women deserve to be more than a "always crying" character.

Thirdly, the "female warrior who is more powerful than everyone else" type of female character.

This female character is strong, tough, resilient, brave, and more things. It's basically the reverse of the "girl who is just the love interest" character. She doesn't need saving, she doesn't cry (or at least she has just a few "weakness" moments) and she is important to the plot because without her there wouldn't be a storyline (whether she is the main character, one of the main characters, or the love interest of another character).

Sometimes this trope is handled well. This type of character can be well-written and be an awesome powerful female character, but there are some cases where the writers/showrunners/producers don't do it well (in my opinion). The thing is that in some shows/movies, to make the female character strong, brave, and intelligent, they make the male characters more weak, more "coward", and more dumb. And that's what I hate about the writing of this type of character. Women can be strong, brave and intelligent without making the male characters the opposite. A woman and a man can be the same, and you don't need to make one look bad to make the other look better. They both should be strong. They both should be powerful. They both should be though. They both should be intelligent.

And fourthly, the "female tough character who doesn't show a lot of emotions" type of character

This type of character is similar to the previous one, except that she isn't considered the "most powerful" character in the book/show/movie. She's strong, tough, resilient, brave (probably more things) and she doesn't need saving (most of the times), but she's not the most powerful character of the show. Yes, she is one of the strongest characters, but she isn't the strongest.

The problem I have with this type of character is that sometimes they appear with another trope. The malewife/girlboss trope. And two of those malewife/girlboss pairings seriously upset me because they're seen as "beautiful" "wholesome" and "awesome" when they aren't. The fans of that ship act like it's "healthy", but I have news for you. It's not healthy. It's not healthy to call your partner with mean nicknames. It's not healthy to hit your partner "as a joke". If it was the reverse, if the man was calling the woman with mean nicknames and he was hitting her "as a joke", everyone would throw hands. If "X" male character treated the "Y" female character like that, there would be no one in this world who wouldn't get angry at him.

But if it's the reverse? "Oh, she's not really hurting him" "Oh, she's so funny" "Oh, she's so silly" "Oh, she's so cute". And that's what I hate about this trope. That the female-on-male bullying is not treated seriously. And you can like these ships, okay. But at least don't pretend they are something they aren't. It's kind of toxic/abusive, and you can still like it, as well as you can like... I don't know, Buffy x Spike (?, but don't act like those ships are healthy because they aren't (this is me talking about the canon because some writers can write those ships as healthy).

Now, after all of this. I'm gonna mention some female characters that I think are well-written, as well as some straight ships that are good (again, in my opinion).

First, the female characters.

Pacifica Northwest from Gravity Falls. Lila Rossi from Miraculous Ladybug. Valerie Gray from Danny Phantom. Karai, April O'Neil from TMNT (any version). Katara, Toph, Korra, Asami Sato from Avatar: The Last Airbender/Legend of Korra. Sabine Wren, Ahsoka Tano, Hera Syndulla from Star Wars Rebels. Nancy Wheeler, Robin Buckley, Eleven/Jane Hopper, Max Mayfield from Stranger Things. Chloe Decker, Ella Lopez, Maze, Linda Martin from Lucifer TV. Allison Argent, Lydia Martin, Malia Hale, Kira Yukimura from Teen Wolf. Alina Starkov, Nina Zenik from Shadow and Bone. Shado, Felicity Smoak, Laurel Lance, Dinah Drake, Sara Lance, Thea Queen, Caitlin Snow, Kara Danvers, Alex Danvers, Lena Luthor, Samantha Arias, Ava Sharpe, Zari Tomaz, Nora Darhk from Arrowverse (The CW). Regina Mills, Emma Swan, Snow White, Ruby, Mulan, Aurora, Ashley Boyd from Once Upon a Time. And more. I don't know what makes these characters so likeable, but I can't help but love them. Compare them with the characters I criticized, and see what I mean with the good/bad female character writing.

Secondly, the straight canon ships (I'm just gonna say my opinion about a few of them and mention the others because if I explained why I accept all of those straights ships and not others, the post would be very very long and I don't want that)

Gray Ghost from Danny Phantom. They had better development and better chemistry than Amethyst Ocean for me, and although Amethyst Ocean is not a bad ship, the way they ended up together at the end of Phantom Planet felt so rushed. With more development? Amethyst Ocean could have been a ship I would have liked.

Kataang from Avatar: The Last Airbender. I will always prefer Zutara/Zukka over this ship, but you can't deny they objectively had development and chemistry. The ship didn't feel rushed or forced, you could actually see they loved each other. And the two of them are powerful, the writers/showrunners didn't make one look bad to make the other look better (in my opinion).

Makorra from Legend of Korra. Their relationship at the beginning of the show was honestly beautiful, and although I like Korrasami, I wouldn't have minded Makorra being the Endgame ship in the show. For me they had good development, chemistry, their romance didn't feel forced or rushed, and their hurt/comfort scenes were so wholesome and heartwarming. And that without saying they also didn't make one of them more weak or more dumb than the other because yes-

Casapril from TMNT 2007. Although in this movie we couldn't see how Casey and April ended up together, what we saw was enough to make me think they were a good ship. I don't know if it was because their relationship seemed healthy or because it seemed like they loved each other so much, but I loved them.

Scallison from Teen Wolf. Okay, Scott McCall had a crush in Allison Argent at the beginning of the show, and some of you could say "Oh, so you accept a character having a crush as long as it's not a girl having it 😡". No. That's not true. Scott McCall had a crush on Allison, yes, but unlike Hinata and Marinette, he didn't stalk Allison, and he talked to her. And unlike Naruto and Adrien, Allison liked Scott almost since the beginning. Then, no, it's not the same situation. Scallison is very different from Naruhina and Adrienette. Scallison actually had development and chemistry, and you could see they both were down for each other since the start of the show.

Gweter from The Amazing Spider-Man. Their relationship is beautiful. The way Gwen got into Flash-Peter's fight and defended Peter, the way they slowly fell for each other, the way the connected so well... Everything between them was wholesome. And again, you could see the chemistry, you could see both characters were well-written without making one look worse than the other. They both were strong (in different ways, but they were), they both were intelligent, and they both were so in love with each other. Their romance wasn't rushed, or forced neither.

Snowing from Once Upon a Time. They're the couple of Once Upon a Time. Their relationship in the Enchanted Forest was beautiful, and although they had to work in their relationship in Earth, you can't deny they're soulmates. Their love is pure, even connecting them across realities, and if there's true love out there, they surely have it. You can ship other ships in this show, sure, but the chemistry between these two is undeniable. As well as their development.

Other straight canon ships I think they're well-written are Stricklake (Trollhunters), Entrapdak (She-Ra and the Princesses of Power), Aelita x Jeremy, Ulrich x Yumi (Code Lyoko), Hank x Shay, Lotura (Voltron Legendary Defender), Obitine (Star Wars), Jancy, Lumax, Mileven, Jopper (Stranger Things), Deckerstar (Lucifer TV), Scalia, Scira, Chelissa (Teen Wolf), Darklina, Helnik (Grishaverse), Petermj (MCU), Olicity, Barricity, Westhawne, Snowstorm, Quickwest, Captain Canary (Arrowverse), Danali, Damiko (Karate Kid), Samguel, MoHawk (Cobra Kai). As you can see (and if I'm not blind lmao) none of these ships are based in the tropes I previously said I hate. There are some of these ships that I don't like for personal reasons, but they are good ships and objectively well-written ships. So... yeah.

To end this post, I want to thank you for reading this, and if you support one of the characters/ships I criticized, please, keep it to yourself and block me or block the "Anti Naruhina/Percabeth/Adrienette/Hiccstrid" and "Anti Marinette/Hinata/Astrid/Annabeth" tags. I didn't make this post just to get hate comments.

If you think the same as me about this, thank you for your time! I'm glad you made it to the end of the post ;)

[missourielephant]

The bloat and waste in Hollywood and video game studios is truly absurd.

rings of power repeatedly boasted that it cost 1 billion dollars and was the most expensive show ever made. It's also clearly one of the worst, and they didn't spend that money on good writers, good effects, good costumes, or good actors. There are few good actors in it, but not enough to justify that budget.

She Hulk and Acolyte were apparently 250 million and around 238 million respectively. Again what did they spend it on? Bad writing, bad acting, and bad and over used CGI.

Concord supposedly cost 400 million and took 8 years to make, and was then abandoned in less than two weeks because of how truly God awful it was. Look at photos of it, does it look anywhere near good enough for 400 million!?!

Now we're hearing that the Snow White movie may have cost close to 500 million, admittedly due in part to repeated reshoots. That it needed that many reshoots is a sign of bad it was to start with, and it still looks terrible.

And in the ultimate contrast, Godzilla Minus One. Cost less than 15 million (probably close to 12) and was truly incredible. Beloved by audiences because of an incredible story, excellent performances, and the special effects if not perfect, were still solid.

At this point, I legitimately think major movie, tv, and video game industries are just giant money laundry schemes. Especially from Disney, which I used to love.

[gay-jewish-bucky]

don't want to bother op but this is literally "steve's" ending, the genders were swapped, and yet the majority of people support it despite it being all kinds of fucked up

[lunarspiral1127]

No. Just no. This show does NOT deserve an Emmy, let alone should be nominated. It's not a good show.

[starlight-bread-blog]

As bad as MCU humor can get, at least they don't do lame meta.

God damn it!

[grimlocksword]

Is She-Hulk: Attorney at Law really comic accurate? (No)

[fairykery]

The writing for sandman was still 💩 to me but to each their own

When you treat your special effects team right and give them enough money, you get a visual masterpiece like The Sandman.

When you treat your special effects team like shit on your shoe and barely pay them and give them no time to work on things, you get whatever the fuck She-Hulk has going on.

[vyeoh]

I'm rewatching all the Marvel Defenders shows on Netflix and as much as I mock the MCU now, I need non-Marvel fans to understand that I was and still am a fan of "Daredevil fighting the gentrifying assshole who bought out the police force because ACAB both as a lawyer and vigilante of the community" and "Jessica Jones fighting the man who mind controlled her into doing unspeakable things and forming a community of fellow survivors and allies while dealing with PTSD in a range of both healthy and unhealthy ways" Marvel. God I love these idiots they carried so hard

[thedarktowerdames]

Art Edit Credit to Roberto Coltro

[alwida10]

Regarding the replacing: the male heroes we met in phase 1 (to 3) had movies that basically started with them, without having the privilege of some other (more famous) character introducing them to the audience, except for Spider-Man. We met Steve in his environment, and witnessed his development. He was a main character. Same for Tony and Bruce (if we count the Incredible Hulk movie). They weren’t a replacement because there simply wasn’t anyone to replace.

For me (someone who never read many marvel comics), Dr. strange felt like a replacement for iron man. He was introduced at a point or became clear that Tony would not stay with the MCU forever, they have similarities in their introduction (being successful, arrogant and a jerk to the women around them) and they both fall roughly in the same visual type (dark hair, styled beard). But at least his movie focused on strange and his arc.

Yelena felt like a replacement for Natasha. She did not have her own movie, but was introduced by the one she was supposed to replace. I didn’t see much of an arc, but Natasha’s happened off screen, so I guess that’s not unfair.

The reason some of the new characters feel like (lazy) replacements to me is:

- they get introduced by a hero that has a lot of similarities, and has been in the franchise for quite a while and might get ‘retired’ soon

- their arcs seem incomplete, flat or generic, and yet it feels like the creators expect us to love the character

- the installment they appear in has a condescending or ridiculing tone towards former content

I noticed many new characters are women. Feige mentioned the MCU was developing towards a more inclusive representation. I don’t think that is in any way causative for the problems with phase 4. The fact they introduce more female heroes comes at the same time the writers want to replace the “old guard�� with new people but fail to do so in a high quality is imo just bad luck.

For record I am not think that mcu women phase 4 writing as Angel that can't be blamed or do wrong.

My problem that a few of them look like replacing man for future projects, I meant beside Wanda, layla (moon knight) , yelena, Ms marvel. The rest look likely will replacing the men like Hawkeye, ant man, hulk, thor (well not really because Jane is dead), loki, black panther, iron man and from phase 1-3.

Now before you saying I overreaching or whatever , I am a women myself and as I like heroine, I more like if they make themselves new name for them and not taking from men.

Well it's more like I sick heard some toxic feminism that saying 'we no need man and men are useless' yet they so happy female characters replacing male characters that mens bulid from zero.

Sorry for rant it's just so far next gen hero from phase 1-3 are domains by women, while I like many female hero I want to new young male hero, so far only spider-man that male hero

I see what you mean but as long as they write those women as interesting and compelling characters I can look past it. Take Kate Bishop for instance, the Hawkeye series was meant to introduce her as Clint's replacement but her character was interesting enough that her role as a "female Hawkeye" wasn't a problem, she was her own person and she just happened to be really good with a bow and arrow.

I can't speak for Cassie or Jen as I haven't seen Quantumania or She-Hulk, but Jane's role in Thor was super weird to me: she wasn't a female Thor at all no matter how much Taika insisted on it. Sylvie's problem is that she's bland and entirely one-dimensional but I have to say I disagree about Black Panther, Shuri is not just T'Challa's replacement, she's her own character and she's absolutely amazing in WF. And Riri was nice too but she was on screen for a short period of time, we're gonna need more time with her.

But truth be told, when I hear the idea that women are replacing the men now I can't help but think, well... maybe the men were replacing the women in previous phases too. In the OG Avengers and Guardians we only had one woman respectively and it took the MCU 10 years to let a woman lead a film.

That toxic feminism you mention is definitely a problem but I really don't see it taking over the MCU at all. We saw that in the Loki series but I can't remember any other movie or series doing that same thing except for that scene in the first ep of She-Hulk but I only ever saw gifs of that scene so I don't have the context. Either way, even if they handled that wrong in that show as well, that's just two series out of 18 movies/series/specials in Phase Four. It helps put things into perspective, don't you think?

I'm not trying to defend the Phase, you know I'm extremely critical of it and the quality went down so quickly after Phase 3 that it almost feels like they suddenly forgot how to write characters. But the problem is not feminism or the female characters, it's more of a general issue of disdain and apathy coming from Feige and the execs. The whole "Phase Four is all about representation" is no more than a shield to defend themselves from criticism and a way to convince their fanboys that anyone who doesn't like what they're releasing is a bigot.

[thetimelordbatgirl]

How many more reshoots are they going to do for Captain America: Brave New World before they realize the problems are that a, they've made a Hulk film this point rather then a Captain America film and b, that they have a zionist character played by a zionist actress-

[martianbugsbunny]

Death of the male character to bolster the female one is a sign of weakness. huge red flag. don't trust you if you do it. if you kill Danny Ocean to put his sister in the spotlight that's a no-go. if you have to have to have the Hulk's cousin belittle him to make her look strong that's a hard pass. if you have to make Loki less competent to define "Lady Loki's" power that's a turnoff. make her stand on her own two feet without touching him or admit you've got nothing.

[randomtvpollsjp]

There are a lot of people who say that the problem with modern media—specifically tentpole franchises like the MCU and “Star Wars”—is that there’s too much “pandering” to “wokeism” as opposed to “just telling good stories.”

And I want you to walk with me as I tell you about how “Wokeism” has always been a part of these franchises and that the stories are STILL GOOD actually. But how YOU’RE engaging with these stories is the problem.

Comics have literally always been woke. Superman was created by Jewish men with a specific goal in mind—he represented Jews. He was a response to the rise in Nazism.

The X-Men are, well, we know who they are—they represent persecuted minorities, be they race or sexual/gender minorities.

Star Wars was heavily influenced by the Vietnam War—and was on the side of the Vietnamese!

And don’t get me started on “Star Trek”. Cuz in that universe, people don’t even use money anymore. It’s a socialist utopia.

“Wokeism” has been baked into all these stories from the jump. It’s just that when we were children, we didn’t have the worldview that we do now (as adults) to see what it was.

A lot of people say that these “woke” writers are “reimagining great comic characters” and making them worse. Yet, the Tony Stark everybody loves in the MCU? Not comics accurate. The Superman Snyder made? Not comics accurate.

It’s ok to not like versions of characters that people choose to make. That’s why they’re adaptations. They’re not meant to be analogous. I accept Snyder’s version even though that was not Siegel and Shuster’s original vision. It’s Snyder’s take. And I engage with that as its own piece of media.

Has this era of these franchises been more inclusive? 100%. And will that appeal to everyone? Absolutely not. But there’s a reason for that.

I believe the problem is that, due to the interconnectedness of the MCU/Star Wars etc., fans feel forced to watch programs that don’t appeal to THEM. And then blame the show for that. When, perhaps, you were not the target audience.

“She-Hulk” was not made for everybody. It was made for people who would like to follow a female character with special abilities who just kind of wants to be normal and deal with everyday, normal stuff. But can’t. Because she’s a Hulk. But also a woman in the modern world. I found it funny and charming because it appealed to ME. And I often watch shows about women dealing with their careers and love lives.

It’s “Ally McBeal” if she got Hulk powers. And if you were unlikely to watch “Ally McBeal” why do you think you would like “She-Hulk”?

“Andor” is in many ways a good show. But I did not like it because I did not find it entertaining. I understood every political message it had. And share the politics of the show. I just didn’t find it to be a show that I enjoyed. So I didn’t watch it past the first couple episodes.

The problem is FOMO—fear of missing out. Not diversity. Not inclusion. But fans don’t realize that it’s ok to not consume everything from a franchise. That doesn’t make it bad. It just makes it not FOR YOU.

And saying that the work is bad because of “Wokeism” and “bad storytelling” (which is subjective), sounds like a YOU problem. If you can come to me with an objective take, I will engage with it. I’m not saying these new things are above criticism. But the problem isn’t that it’s “woke”.

[strangerpsychofficeparks]

Oh I forgot to mention both also rely on twerking as a source of humor because that's what the kids think is funny these days, right?

[flower1622]

I may be a girl, but I don't agree 100% with feminism. Nothing against it. The ideia of equality is good. But how people use it...that it's not. Instead of putting Women and Men on the same level...I only see men being putting down and women ordering them. This is not cool or healthy. We are all humans here. We should be equals because no one is better than anyone else. This just made me hate some things, like:

. Captain Marvel:

(She gives me the vibe that she doesn't like men very much. Nothing against it, but to almost all of them? I think who watched her movies can answer it better. I only watched one and the best parts were from a man and a cat)

. Barbie

(The movie and maybe some female characters. They destroyed Ken's personality. Barbie being called fascist and many other things. Only the women getting the power in the end. The only good parts from the movie were from Ken)

. Annabeth Chase

(She orders and Percy obeys. Not only that, but she even makes fun of his intelligence to other people, even though he is the one to save her most of the times. She tries to sound like she is superior to him and many other things)

. She Hulk

(What have they done to Hulk? Where is the anger? Where is that monster guy? I didn't want to watch the series...because based on some spoilers, I think I wouldn't like it)

. Peter Pan

(The new movie from Peter Pan. I didn't want to watch because I knew Disney would make something terrible to the movie. I'm really grateful that I didn't do it. Wendy more powerful than Peter Pan? Girls in the island? Wendy being the hero? Peter without powers? Wendy punching Peter? What story is this? The only good thing was the story between Captain Hook and Peter. Many people must know now that Peter was always the villain...I guess)