#anti s8 house stark

[rynnthefangirl]

Whenever I think about how annoying the end of Game of Thrones was, I just imagine Bran the Broken's dumbass reign collapsing from all the awful political situations they set up.

A united seven kingdoms is done. Now that the North is independent, the Iron Islands and Dorne will follow soon after. They never wanted to be in the Seven Kingdoms to begin with and have been fighting rebellions and wars for centuries. Particularly after all the recent conflicts, there is no love for King's Landing from those two kingdoms right now. And regarding the Iron Islands, Yara promised *Daenerys* that she'd put an end to the reaving and raping ways of the Ironborn. She made no such promises to Bran.

The Reach will never stand for Ser Nobody of the Blackwater being given HIGHGARDEN over any of the remaining Tyrells or the dozens of smaller houses who all have loyally served as House Tyrell's bannermen for years and have way better and more deserved claims. The show treats it as this fun little fan service moment, but in reality that is a MAJOR political insult. A war-worthy political insult. Give it a month before Bronn is driven from the Reach (if not killed, although I think he is wise enough to give up and flee). Then with the North, Iron Islands, and Dorne having declared independence, I don't see the Reach sticking around for much longer. They are the wealthiest, most prosperous kingdom of Westeros, they can easily thrive on their own. And they'd have way more money and power by controlling the biggest food supply in Westeros and locking down on trade routes. Good luck to Sansa supporting her brother King Bran when winter comes and her people's biggest food supply is now rebelling against the crown.

And with four kingdoms independent, it's really just a matter of time before some lord or another in the remaining kingdoms thinks "hey, why the hell am I bowing down to a Stark that I never even voted for" and jumps into that power vacuum to declare themselves king. Since ya know, they didn't bother to hold a proper Great Council with equal representation and agreement from across the realm, instead just going with House Stark and all their friends and allies.

And what is King Bran going to do about any of this? He has no dragons to unite the Seven Kingdoms as Aegon the Conquerer did. He doesn't have the strength to cow half of the realm rebelling, and even if he did how would he be any better than Daenerys denying the North their independence? It'd be hypocritical to the max for House Stark to tell other kingdoms that they can't have their independence after they committed treason against their Queen over it. His only chance would be to use some Three-Eyed Raven voodoo, which I guess is not out of the question, but literally that would just make him the villain and no better than the Conquerer.

While we are imaging chaos, why should Daenerys' forces just cease to be an issue once their Queen has been murdered? Fuck that, the Dothraki are in Westeros now with no Dany to keep them in check and the Unsullied I guess are going to start their own House (???) which will 100% have intense and burning enmity for the Crown.

The once united realm will break up into seven independent kingdoms, with all the wars and inter fighting that plagued the land before Aegon I showed up. Much happy ending. Yay democracy (oligarchy).

[kuramirocket]

It'a also why s8 was so stupid and didn't even work on selling dark!dany. Dany antis state that Dany is power hungry, yet she herself says she wanted to break the wheel together with Jon.

Arya says Jon will "always be a threat" to her. Yet, the same script states Dany felt relaxed and secure with him.

Make it make sense!

why do you think most of the ASOIAF fandom and ASOIAF meta blogs dislike Daenerys and have a very thinly veiled distaste for her. many of them also seem to forget how young she is and her earlier life circumstances. i just wish they’d come out and openly express their hatred rather than pretending to tolerate her.

I honestly don’t understand it either. And many of those people will defend other characters because they are young, but at the same time will ignore the fact that Dany is also young, and unlike the other characters, she didn’t have a formal education, didn’t have a home and a family to take care of her or teach her, and is also in probably the most difficult political situation in ASOIAF. They will ignore all of this while also defending their faves because they are “young” and people shouldn’t be so hard on them, but Dany has to be perfect, and if she’s not, then she’s evil and stupid blah blah…

Really, I don’t think any of Dany’s few “questionable actions” warrants the hate that she gets. Which is what makes me think that the reason for the fandom’s dislike of Dany has nothing to do with Dany’s actions. It has to do with other things: she’s a threat to their faves getting power; she’s a threat to their ships; her story is separated from the main story, so people don’t care about her and think her story is boring; she is a girl that threatens to have more narrative importance and steal the spotlight of their male faves; she’s a girl that could end up being more important, the main hero, and the one that gets it all in the end, when people wanted their male faves to do it; she’s a girl and people are sexist, so they use double standards, prejudices and stereotypes while analysing her character; and finally, her political beliefs are very leftist and many consider them to be “radical” and “extremist”, and many people believe this to be a bad thing, so they expect the classic narrative that says that revolutionaries are actually bad and self serving.

With all of these factors for hate combined into the same character, I kind of understand why she gets so much hate. But not really. I don’t understand the Dany hate at all. She doesn’t deserve it.

[sayruq]

One 'critique' that Sansa antis/some shippers love to say regarding her show ending is that 'I don't even know why the Stansas are happy with her ending because she's all alone in Winterfell without her siblings.' First of all, when were they even together for it to be such a big deal they are now apart? Second of all, had none of the events in ASOIAF occurred and the Starks were a regular noble family - Sansa, along with Arya, was always going to be betrothed to a nobleman somewhere in one of the Southern kingdoms or maybe to one of her father's Northern bannerman. Basically, no matter what, she was going to leave home by 16-18 anyway once she got married and go live with her husband as....literally all noble ladies did???? Bran wanted to go off and be a knight. Jon would have gone to the Wall or gotten a holdfast and been married off had he chosen that. Literally only Rob, as the heir, would have stayed behind with his future wife and kids. So this whole 'she was left by herself all alone' criticism is hilarious to me. There is literally no universe where all the Starks would somehow magically all live together at Winterfell with their spouses and future kids as if it was some weird Westeros Brady Bunch. That's literally not how it works lol. This is all cope from stans of characters who are bitter about their faves' endings and hated that Sansa became Queen so they are grasping at straws. It's so fucking transparent. Also, Sansa will have ladies in waiting, the house staff at Winterfell, guests and lords who visit, etc. This fiction that she is sitting on some cold throne day in and out without any significant social interaction is bizarre lmao.

They were always going to go their separate ways no matter who ended up on the throne.

And I'm sorry, you have to be stupid not to understand why Queen Sansa, finally safe and secure in her own home and being embraced by her own people as a ruler, is a happy ending. Imo it's the least bittersweet ending of the show. Sansa was a naive, idealistic child who was taken prisoner and endured hell before escaping only to be almost murdered by her aunt, imprisoned again and tortured in her own home. She escaped, defeated her rapist, took down her creepy uncle who caused her so much suffering, and became a ruler in her own right who gained the respect and the admiration of not just the North but also the Vale.

That ending scene had the most set up of everything that happened in s8. The truth is not every Stark was there for all the important parts of Sansa's arc. Jon was there for the beating Ramsay part and the beginning of Sansa as Lady of Winterfell but he obvious couldn't be in Winterfell during her coronation. Regardless he gave his endorsement. Arya was there when the Northerners turned to Sansa in Jon's absence and when Littlefinger died but not the parts before, during or even after that. Regardless, she gave her endorsement. Bran.... man I'm still angry with what they made Bran into but Sansa got his endorsement too. Would their presence in such a pivotal moment have been nice? Yes but the scene was still triumphant without them and they got to wrap up their stories at the same time too.

Tldr Sansa's coronation kicked ass

[finitefall]

IMO there are only 2 main triggers for being Team Green; a) stanning OC and trying to twist the story to pander to your sympathies, understandable! b) being a frustrated Stansa/Jon/Stark stan and/or incel Dany/Targ anti, angry @the world for not taking S8 seriously & not giving af about the characters you like, watching HotD by projecting your old hate for Dany onto Rhaenyra as stand-in. Mocking their new "favs" as comeback won't work, they don't really matter to them, just tools for old agendas

There's a reason so many are saying Sansa is in fact Alicent's secret descendant, lol. None of them cared about House Hightower before the show. But they do love show!Alicent, although not as much as show!Sansa. She's really a new favorite for them, as a "good and relatable female character". Greens stans are basically Alicent stans, as I said before.

[reignof-fyre]

I'm mad about got s8 again

[aboveallarescuer]

If any other Daenerys fans who are 100% convinced without a show of a doubt that she will remain strictly a hero, I would love it if you’d add onto this post and tell me why!

It should go without saying that no one is "100% convinced without a show of a doubt" of anything about the future books because no one is inside GRRM's mind, but there are lots of reasons why many doubt that book!Dany will become a villain.

If I was in charge of the story, I’d have Dany participate in the battle against the Others and, in the process, really get to know and understand the people of Westeros and realize that claiming the throne could not happen peacefully.

First of all, Dany shouldn't be expected to know all the intricacies of Westerosi culture or to take the Iron Throne without spilling blood when the lands and privileges of all the other noble families (including the Starks) rest on their Essosi ancestors having also conquered lands and killed their enemies. Dany shouldn't be held to a higher standard than every other house, otherwise her actions - as a product of her pseudomedieval society - will end up being misconstrued.

Second, Dany already knows that "claiming the throne [cannot] happen peacefully"? In fact, she's one of the few who tries to reduce the damage caused by war and those efforts inform her anti-slavery campaign:

This is war, this is what it looks like, this is the price of the Iron Throne. [...]

"Stop them." She spoke to her khas in the harsh accents of Dothraki. "Jhogo, Quaro, you will aid Ser Jorah. I want no rape."

~

"The blood of my enemies I will shed gladly. The blood of my innocents is another matter. Eight thousand Unsullied they would offer me. Eight thousand dead babies. Eight thousand strangled dogs."

Third, are you implying that Dany may not participate in the war against the Others...? That's pretty much guaranteed to happen, she even has a prophetic dream where she burns the White Walkers:

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident. But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse. When she saw the Usurper's rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent. Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened.

And yes, that dream is prophetic and meant to be taken seriously. As GRRM said, "the Targaryens have certain gifts"; "an occasional Targaryen had prophetic powers and could see glimpses of the future, which they didn’t always necessarily properly interpret because, you know, they were fragmentary and sometimes symbolic". (source)

It’s hard for me to buy the idea that villain Daenerys isn’t an idea that GRRM at least floated to them.

That's YOUR speculation, but that's all it is as far as we know. What GRRM has actually confirmed in Fire Cannot Kill a Dragon was that the three twists he told D&D were 1) Hodor and "hold the door", 2) Stannis burning Shireen and 3) who sits on the Iron Throne. (source)

If he had planned to have Dany burn KL or to be killed by Jon, then it's very likely that these plot points would have been listed among the big twists he told D&D, and yet they weren't. Indeed, D&D already confirmed in the Blu-Ray of Game of Thrones' S8 that "WE came up" with the idea of Jon killing Dany. (source)

[Daenerys destroying King's Landing] is just such a major event that effects literally every other surviving main character.

And yet it did not really effect any of the main characters in the show? All the remaining Starks + Tyrion came out of S8 (aka the season where Dany was supposed to be a bloodthirsty villain) unscathed.

It's worth pointing out that D&D admitted in the Blu-ray of GoT's S8 (source) that "WE didn't really realize was how much residual drama there was left. Once WE realized that both Jon and Tyrion were inevitably going to be prisoners, WE knew that their fate was far from settled". If that had been GRRM's plan, then surely they wouldn't have had to stop and think about what to do with Jon and Tyrion - undeniably two of the main characters - next? Again, this adds to the well-founded speculation that Dany's villain arc was an original idea from D&D.

[...] But it’s just hard to buy the idea that these men whom GRRM trusted would do something that entirely betrays his ideas for the story. And GRRM REALLY had faith in them. He did NOT want there to be an adaption of his series but they won him over.

GRRM already said that "by seasons 5 and 6, and certainly 7 and 8, I was pretty much out of the loop" and that "my ending will be very different". (source) That "as the show went on, I found I had less and less influence until by the end I really didn’t even know what was going on. [...] Some of these things I watched like everybody else, and ‘oh, okay.'  (source)

Your assumption has already been disproven by his interviews. It's also worth noting that, in the show, Benjen turned out to be Coldhands when that's a specific fan theory that GRRM previously debunked. (source) D&D were certainly not above doing things that contradicted GRRM's vision.

Another major example that proves their willingness to deviate from the books is how the War for the Dawn ultimately ended. Not only because there's no Night King in the current timeline of the books, but also because D&D literally admitted that they decided who would kill him based on shock value. They considered having Brienne or even a non-POV character like the Hound kill him before settling on Arya. (source)

Additionally, GRRM already shut down a theory about Dany burning a place (Water Gardens) and hinted at the possibility that she’s not involved in the second Dance of Dragons. (source 1, source 2) These statements - coupled with book!Dany's characterization, GRRM's non-involvement in S5-8, Dany burning KL or Dany being killed by Jon not being among the three big twists GRRM told D&D and D&D's disregard for the books and fickleness in general - are some of the endless reasons why many of us doubt that Dany will ever be a villain in the books.

And then there’s the original outline. Yes, many things have changed since then. But George refers to Dany as a “threat.” This demonstrates that at least at one point, he has toyed with the idea of her ultimately posing as an antagonistic force to Westeros.

He also refers to the Starks and the Lannisters as a "threat" to the Seven Kingdoms in the 1993 outline. That doesn't make Ned, Robb or any of the Stark children villains or even antagonists. rainhadaenerys already talked about this at length here.

This isn’t because I think she’d be a bad ruler (it is hard to judge who would it wouldn’t be a good ruler when they’re young teenagers).

GRRM already singled out Tyrion and Dany as suitable leaders, so your assessment of her as a ruler has been contradicted by the author himself (source).

He already told Marc Simonetti that Dany wants equality for everyone (source).

He wrote several villainous characters as foils to Dany - from Viserys/Aerys II (Viserys was Mad Aerys's son, just so. Daenerys … Daenerys is quite different.) to Cersei to the Others themselves (she and her dragons are the Fire of ASOIAF to the Others' Ice and, as GRRM himself said, Fire symbolizes love, passion and sexual ardor in contrast to Ice representing betrayal, revenge and cold inhumanity).

There's a lot of book evidence indicating that Dany is Azor Ahai/Prince that Was Promised.

Why would GRRM reverse pretty much everything he wrote so far to make Dany a villain (instead of a prophesied hero)? It contradicts what he's said about his writing process:

I am aware of some of the speculation out there, but I try to keep my distance from it precisely because I don't wanna be impacted. I mean, it's one of the drawbacks of the whole internet culture in this world that you guys have created--that something that previously maybe one reader in a thousand would have guessed, but you still had the other 999 who would have no inkling until you reveal it in a book. Now, that one person in a thousand puts it on an internet message board and everybody sees it and they say, "Oh, yeah, yeah. That's right. Now I see the clues. I got it." And pretty soon, half the readership, or at least the internet savvy portion of your readership, knows it. But what do you do then? Do you change it and come up with something goofy and outlandish that you haven't lead the, that you haven't done the foreshadowing for, that you haven't laid the foundation for just in order to surprise people? I mean, sure. I could have like, aliens come down and-- that would certainly surprise the hell out of everybody. No one is predicting that, but it would ruin the series. So, basically you can't let yourself be influenced by this stuff. And I try not to. (source)

Lastly, I would recommend reading some of the metas in this masterpost, especially the third section. Pretty much everything you brought up has been already refuted ad nauseaum by so many Dany fans.

I still think there’s a chance Dany doesn’t become a villain in the books because her characterization IS different in the show but I don’t think it’s really fair to claim the only reasons people think she’ll become a villain are misogyny and hatred of her and desire to see her get a bad ending. Yes there are Dany haters and misogynists who believe this but those are not the only reasons.

I love Dany. What I desire for her is not necessarily what I believe will happen in the story. I’m still split on what I think will happen and I’m keeping an open mind. What I want for Dany is a happy ending where she is loved and can live in peace. If I was in charge of the story, I’d have Dany participate in the battle against the Others and, in the process, really get to know and understand the people of Westeros and realize that claiming the throne could not happen peacefully. I want her to choose the path she wants deep down and not the path she was told is owed to her. She does not seem to particularly enjoy ruling. Based on my interpretation, what Dany wants is a home. She wants love and acceptance and belonging. But growing up with Viserys she’s come to believe that she is owed the throne and has a duty to rule and she doesn’t know what else to do. This isn’t because I think she’d be a bad ruler (it is hard to judge who would it wouldn’t be a good ruler when they’re young teenagers). I just don’t think it would lead to a happy ending for her. I don’t want the IT for ANY of my favs.

However. This is just what I WANT for her. There are many things in the show that are clearly made up completely by D&D, like replacing Jeyne Poole with Sansa. However, I don’t think something as major as Daenerys, one of the main characters who has been presented as a hero thus far, destroying King’s Landing is something D&D would just pull out of their asses. It’s just such a major event that effects literally every other surviving main character. It’s hard for me to buy the idea that villain Daenerys isn’t an idea that GRRM at least floated to them. It was super rushed and poorly executed, as was the rest of the show. But it’s just hard to buy the idea that these men whom GRRM trusted would do something that entirely betrays his ideas for the story. And GRRM REALLY had faith in them. He did NOT want there to be an adaption of his series but they won him over. I do NOT want this to be the trajectory of Daenerys’s character but I just can’t pretend it’s not a very real possibility.

And then there’s the original outline. Yes, many things have changed since then. But George refers to Dany as a “threat.” This demonstrates that at least at one point, he has toyed with the idea of her ultimately posing as an antagonistic force to Westeros. Is this enough evidence to say without a shadow of a doubt that this is what George will do? No I don’t think so. Not a single one of us can say what he’s going to do with this story. There’s also a very real chance that Winds is taking so long because he decided to make major changes after seeing how GoT was received by the public but I’d like to think he has more integrity than that. But again, I just don’t know.

I want Daenerys to be a hero. The ending she got in the show was so, so tragic and would be heart wrenching if it had been executed well. As a big ol Jon lover, I don’t want that ending for him either. There are characters who are obviously on different trajectories based on major changes the show made to events (Sansa), characterization (Arya), or statements GRRM made (Jaime). But I just can’t say for sure that that’s true of Daenerys. If any other Daenerys fans who are 100% convinced without a show of a doubt that she will remain strictly a hero, I would love it if you’d add onto this post and tell me why!

[rhaenyra-first-of-her-name]

I saw some Sansa fan say she couldn’t have been xenophobic to Daenerys because Daenerys was born here and that if we want to say Dany is foreign woman (and that Sansa being prejudiced was the case), that it mean’s Dany has no claim. Another word’s, we can’t have it both way’s. Sansa has and always will be a nasty character - why can’t they accept that in general though?

That's like saying second generation immigrants don't face any xenophobia.

Dany is a good example of the trope: child of two worlds. She was born on Dragonstone, Westeros. Her family had lived on Westeros for about three centuries. But she also grew up on Essos. Her family is originally from Valyria, Essos. So she's as much of Westeros as much as she's of Essos.

Claiming that she isn't, is just a lie. We had Tarly on the show, reason his support of Cersei because she's Westerosi. He said bcoz Cersei was born on Westeros as if Dany wasn't.

So yeah, Sansa was definitely xenophobic to Dany. Not just Dany though, her own entourage. We all saw what a warm welcome Missandei and Grey Worm got (/s). Arya, who pretty much acted like Sansa 's mouthpiece in s8, outright said that Dany isn't one of them while Sansa looked on.

On that note of claims, if Dany doesn't have one, no other character does either. First Men weren't the natives of Westeros, it was the Children of Forest. If Dany 's birth and family history doesn't make her eligible, why would the same make Sansa eligible? Who decides how long it needs to be.

You can say Sansa grew up in Westeros but then so did everyone of the smallfolk, it doesn't make Sansa somehow more eligible for any throne/castle whatsoever.

All I saw in these takes are excuses, false dichotomy and running in circles. In my experience, Sansa stans (disclaimer: most) aren't a good choice to have a discussion with. They can't allow their fav to have any flaws and they have little material to support their fav so they twist the canon to fit in a mould they want.

It's boring and tedious.

The show went on to great lengths to sympathize Sansa but imo, they ended up stripping her of any nuance and turned her into a Mary Sue (not even a good one, at it, too.) It was her lack of empathy in the first book that made her a chilling and interesting character.

I think the problem lies in the fact that Sansa was never intended to take the positive sphere her stans want her to. She was made to be a foil to Arya and sow discord amongst the Starks.

Apparently she's the fandom self insert cycle. Look up her relationship tags on ao3. She's literally paired up with every character imaginable. There's that. People don't like their self inserts being nasty so obviously they're gonna deny it. Idk pal, I am out of ideas for the why at this point.

My apologies for the late reply. I am too busy irl. I am literally drowning in work here, unfortunately.

[yennefersbody]

AND WHILE I AM HERE. the end of the g*t is not a ‘stark’ victory okay it is a ‘daenerys gave everything she had to destroy the threats to the realm (night king, cersei, and euron) but it was the starks and not daenerys who benefited from it’ victory. okay. like..stop portraying the starks as these noble and valiant heroes lmao like they would all be dead without daenerys’ help and they would certainly not be sitting on thrones

[illbrkyourheart]

Jon, Gendry, Jaime, Tormund, Hound, Theon: *desperately seeking their way to North*

Everyone else: What's so special about there?!?!

North:

[nerd-onthe-loose]

So Jon Snow is going to disrespect Ghost like that huh

[carbonitekisses]

“We need allies...”

Daenerys is a good ally to have because she has two fire-breathing dragons. They will be useful in battling wights and wight Viserion, no one denies that.

However,

there’s a difference between alliances and aid that is dependent upon the subjugation of a people.

Lyanna, Sansa, and the rest of the North are entitled to their, for lack of a better word, resentment towards Jon. The Unsullied and Dothraki chose to follow Daenerys. The North never chose Dany. They chose Jon as their King, not Dany. And it is clear from episode one that the North will not willingly or happily bend the knee to her. It is also clear that Daenerys will use her aid as leverage against any who dissent against her rule.

“She doesn’t need to be my friend but I am her queen. If she can’t respect me…”

There is an implied threat here. Dany is saying, “If I do not receive the respect I am owed/deserve there will be consequences.” The only consequences she can deal out are death by dragonfire or death by retracting her aid. She has already stated she has no interest in hostages or sending men to the (now non-existent) Wall. Either way, Dany is threatening anyone who doesn’t unconditionally accept her rule.

Subjugate: to bring under complete control or subjection; conquer; master.

Dany wants to govern a people who do not want and did not choose her as their ruler but need her aid in order to survive; this is subjugation. It is subjugation because Dany has shown that there are only two options: bend the knee or die.

People ask: “Why doesn’t the North understand that titles don’t matter because only the Great War matters, so why can’t they just accept Dany as their new queen?”

Perhaps they should also ask:

Why is Dany, a self-proclaimed savior of the helpless, so fixated on knee-bending when the end of the world is near?

Why can’t she see the bigger picture, too, and understand that people deserve saving, from a fate worse than death, no matter whether they bend the knee or not?

[jonsansa8999]

Tyrion: Did you have to stab her?

Jon: You weren’t there. You didn’t hear what she said to me.

Tyrion: What did she say?

Jon: ‘What are you going to do, stab me?’

Arya: That’s fair.

[cantfightfatetoo]

Anyone else still pissed that dumb & dumber gave us Tyrion arranging damn chairs around instead of actual meaningful Starkling scenes. It angers me to think of it, like, fuck Tyrion getting everything he wanted in the end... We wanted to see our favorite wolves bonding, for closure.

Instead we got a smug arrogant Tyrion who should've been led out by an angry mob.I can't believe he'd get away with all that he has done. No way would the people of Westeros want him as hand of the king.

[stardyng]

The trailer once again reminding everyone that Jon Snow is a fucking Stark. Y’all dummy bitches are calling him Aegon and Targaryen and shit...but homeboy is just as much of a Stark as any of his siblings and y’all are going to see real quick where his loyalties lie when shit hits the fan. Y’all are going to see who exactly are his priorities then.

[saltywinteradult]

Sansa really is the most intelligent person around.

One thing I noted during the greeting scene was that while Dænerys (thankfully) skipped her titles list when meeting the Starks, she still tried to use empty flattery to win Sansa over, and Sansa wasn’t having any of it. What I really love about the scene is how it calls back to Sansa meeting Lyanna Mormont back in season 6. Sansa did the same thing then, trying to win Lyanna over with empty flattery; Lyanna called her on it, and in this episode we saw that Sansa took that lesson to heart. She sees through D*ny’s empty courtesies right away, just like Lyanna did with her. She’s learned that lesson.

And then she just keeps on going.

As hopepeaceandblackgirlmagic pointed out, Sansa expertly gets Dænerys to admit in front of everyone that the dragons eat “whatever they want”, meaning that they may very well steal livestock or even eat people. And she clearly takes note of how this doesn’t seem to concern Dænerys at all. Sansa knows the importance of diplomacy and that’s what she’s doing here; she’s subtly making Dænerys take responsibility for whatever the dragons end up doing in the court of public opinion.

When Sansa tells Jon that Dænerys is prettier than the Mad King, she’s not being petty or jealous; she’s saying that she really doesn’t see any difference other than the most superficial aspects. Sansa sees what Dænerys is right away, and the idea of being dependent on this dangerous Targaryen invader is terrifying to her. She knows Jon is right, which is why she doesn’t press the issue further, but you can bet she’s already making plans in her head for what happens should they all survive the war against the undead. That’s why she questions Jon’s motives; she’s asking him, “who will you be loyal to? Can I still count on you to fight for your family?” She doesn’t even know about R + L = J yet, but she's already making plans to keep her family safe when shit inevitably hits the fan.

Finally, we have Sansa pointing out what Tyrion doesn’t want to see, and basically calling him an idiot for trusting Cersei. Tyrion and Sansa are intelligent in similar ways; both are good (usually) judges of character, and they’re both politicians rather than military commanders. The difference is that whether he wants to admit it or not, Tyrion is still tied by the bonds of family; whatever pact he made with Cersei clearly involved her unborn child, which he can’t help but care about. While Sansa doesn’t know about that, it doesn’t really matter, because despite knowing Cersei less well than Tyrion does, she sees what he doesn’t: that Cersei is not to be trusted and was never going to help.

We all know that Sansa will be proven right, about both Dænerys and Cersei. We didn’t need Arya or Tyrion or any other character to remind us of how intelligent she is, because the writing shows us time and time again that Sansa really is a force to be reckoned with, and I can’t believe there are people out there who still don’t see it.

[slytarg]

The North claiming they're an Independent country pre s8 finale was no different than any other House claiming it. Robb & Jon called themselves King? Balon called himself King. Stannis called himself King. Renley called himself King. Viserys saw himself as the true King of the Seven Kingdoms.

Robb & Jon didn't win against the Lannisters or Baratheons. They didn't beat the crown. They didn't beat back the armies that were part of the unification ala Dorne. Robb, his dad, his wife, his son, his mom, and even his direwolf were killed by Lannisters. Sansa Stark was held captive by Lannisters til s4 then was held captive by the Boltons in s5.

S6 ended with the Starks winning back the North from the Boltons, a Northern House. That's Northerners fighting each other. That is not winning Independence from the 7K. It put the Starks where Robb was in s3 but with less soldiers, resources, money, food, direwolves (4 out of 6 were killed) and time until the Long Night.

Did you say the North was an Independent country when Ramsay was the ruler living in the Winterfell castle? Did you say the North wasn't part of the 7K in s2 when Theon was the ruler living in the Winterfell castle? Why is the North Independent when there are Starks as rulers in the Winterfell castle? The series started with all the Starks alive in the Winterfell castle and it didn't mean they were Independent.

If Cersei sent her 20,000 Golden Company soldiers North, what would the Starks do? If Daenerys chose not to involve her armies in the Long Night, what would the Starks do? If Daenerys flew North with 3 dragons and the Unsullied army, 100,000 Dothraki army, Ironborn bannermen, the Reach bannermen, Dorne bannermen, Stormlands bannermen, what would the Starks do?