#anti Tobirama

[the-real-sasuke-uchiha]

There are no good hokages. Not a single one. Hashirama enabled his racist brother knowingly, and let him perform his deranged jutsu experiments. Hiruzen was a fully aware accomplice of a genocide instigator and let him roam free with no punishment. Minato did nothing against the oppression of the Uchiha and made a nuke out of a baby. Tsunade turned her head away from Danzo's conspiracies, it was under her rule that Danzo aimed at Sasuke's life when he was doing nothing against Konoha. Kakashi and Naruto swept a genocide under the rug and had genocide instigators working for them.

There isn't a single good one. All of them are criminals. All of them are guilty.

[leportraitducadavre]

Tobirama might have been prejudiced toward Uchiha, but he drew the line on human experimentation...

Oh, well, he conducted undisclosed autopsies on Uchiha's bodies, but he drew the line on human sacrifices...

Oh, well, Edo-Tensei needs human sacrifices, but he drew the line on using innocent people...

Oh, well, who exactly is innocent when they all partake in a system based upon oppression and warfare, but he drew the line on using children...

Oh, well, he created the exams that sends children to warlike scenarios, but he drew the line on hurting allies...

Oh, well, Uchiha were their allies and he still created a system that harmed them specifically, but he drew the line in--

[bimgtt]

True Uchiha clan not that bulshite shown in the Boruto series so called fake Uchiha pathetic historically ignorant family( Sakura and Sarada who treat clan crest some sort of ornaments or achievements or trophy to brag about or show off for them without knowing its struggle and past history and how you get to wear it) or how the story tries to revise Uchiha tragedy and the oppression and racism against the Uchiha collectively.

[nardo-headcanons]

About Shisui Uchiha

just some shower thoughts i had about him. this is very headcanon heavy and rather vague at times.

tw for talks about suicide, manipulation, trauma, abuse, etc

tagging: @uchihaharlot @pxssy-stuntin-for-itxchi @lalalover33-blog @burning-bubble @naruto-scribblings-j

Unlike Itachi, who was born during the last year of the great Shinobi war, it is safe to say that Shisui was born while it was still going on. So naturally, he was exposed to the worst side humanity had to offer, most likely traumatizing him in the process.

His mother is never mentioned, so I assume she must have died during his birth or in his early childhood. His father, most likely ravaged by illness before he even entered the battlefield, lost his left leg, leaving him with phantom pains and high medical bills. As a born shinobi, Shisui’s father lacked the funds and education to pursue any other path of career, leaving his child as the only breadwinner of his family. Shisui probably had to spend his entire childhood and youth slaving away just to keep his father and himself afloat. Additionally, he took care of a terminally i’ll man who didn’t even remember his son’s name. Of course, this would lead to Shisui being very perceptive of the psychology of the ones around him, how else could he search for a sign of his father’s state health changing?

Shisui often spent time wondering what it’s like to have a family, a family in which he is allowed to be what he is: a child. Someone who is cared for, someone who is looked after. Despite being an Uchiha, his relation to Kagami Uchiha - the Uchiha allied with Tobirama, the very person planting the seed for all the discrimination the Uchiha would face, up to a point of their genocide, would probably lead him to feel ostracized within his own clan. And like everyone of us, he is trying to find the balance between individuality and belonging - the latter being the one he lacked. His abilities as an Uchiha become a defining factor of identity for him, leading to him being willing to let a comrade via withholding aid - just on the basis of that comrade potentially being stronger than him. Once his comrade dies, the young Uchiha is ravaged by feelings of guilt, by the awareness that the blood of his friend is on his hand.

But nevertheless, he is blessed with a new Uchiha ability - the mangekyou sharingan. His entire life he had to enter a role he didn’t want to be in, robbing him of memories he could have had. So what better mangekyou ability to have than the one that alters memories, and, in extension, alters your role in the world?

Shisui’s resentment against his Uchiha identity starts bubbling up inside him again, and being a shinobi who frequents B- or even A-Rank missions as a literal teenager (how else would you pay for your father’s medical debt as a shinobi, eh?) he was closer to the village from the start. Hailed as the strong and talented Uchiha boy, taking on missions to serve his village, behind the facade a broken kid forced to grow up way too quickly. His first serious doubts begin when he is forced to kill Mukai Kohinata, a direct reflection of Shisui, just the other way around: a father wanting nothing but funds to care for his dying child.

Things don’t get better when the tension between the village and the Uchiha rise. His own brethren or the collective - who will you support? Getting into Shisui’s mind and twisting his perception of what’s right is an easy game for Danzo, almost too easy. A civil war breaking out in Konoha would be a repetition of his initial trauma - the one thing Shisui wants to prevent the most. Shisui starts feeling conflicted, until he finally stumbles upon THE miracle solution: forcefully keeping up the status quo by manipulating the leader of the revolution - an unpleasant reality, but better than the Uchiha clan’s extermination or a civil war breaking out, right? To Shisui, atleast. And honestly, who could blame him? As a ninja who graduated young, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that he lacks the methodical and critical thinking outside of the parameters of violence and manipulation he is used to from Danzo and the shinobi world.

And then it happens. He agrees to suppress the revolution of his own ethnic group just for the sake of keeping up a false sense of peace, and suddenly, his co conspirators, the man that is supposed to be guarding him, leading him, suddenly abandons him and steals his eye? Shisui’s entire identity as the Uchiha boy from Konoha collapses and he doesn’t know what to think or believe anymore. In his last moments, he becomes aware of the utter pointlessness of the killing and the brutality of the shinobi system, the sheer feeling of powerless overwhelming him. At this point, death seems like a sweeter option than continuing to live powerlessly in such a system.

Shisui is a skilled ninja, but not always in contact with his emotions. Therapy is a rarity in the leaf, with even the counselors themselves not being able to give advise outside of the parameters of what’s “acceptable” in the hidden leaf.

So, what better way to hide your agony than behind a -albeit manufactured- goofy smile?

[mdr-reikas]

Proper analysis aside, "curse of hatred" sounds corny as hell 😭😭 tobirama should be hung at stake for that shit alone

[luna-blood]

I was debating on YouTube about Sasuke but YouTube deletes comments, especially those that have a link. It was also difficult for me to search for the publications. So I gave myself the task of collecting posts from all Sasuke fans and neutral critics of the work 'Naruto' that talk about Sasuke and his relationship with the other Naruto characters. I have also included my contributions, such as questions to other users and post responses. I hope this post helps you when you need support when you are debating in favor of Sasuke. Without anything else to say, I leave you the links:

Positive qualities of Sasuke.

Sasuke's chakra is extremely powerful, voluminous, and denser than Senjutsu chakra!

It is false that Bee could have killed Sasuke any time he wanted.

¡Sasuke has been shown to nullify mortal wounds with Raiton!

Sasuke is literally the first person to survive the Raikage's Liger Bomb.

All Sasuke received from Raikage was a small lip bleed, while Raikage lost an arm and another Kage, Gaara, had to intervene to save his leg and his life.

Orochimaru's "physical condition" has nothing to do with his ritual and Sasuke's victory.

Analysis Sasuke vs Deidara.

Sasuke killed Danzo; he did not commit suicide.

Are Itachi and Kakashi really prodigies at the level their fans believe them to be? No.

The only reason Naruto managed to hurt Kaguya was because Sasuke forced her to change dimensions more than once and she herself had changed dimensions about four times in total.

Because Sasuke haters say that Haku is simply more tragic and a better person than Sasuke; and Batman too!

What is it about Sasuke that provokes people so much, compared to all the other fictional characters (in and out of Naruto) who have done bad things? Gaara was killing people for fun in part 1, but no one ever complains about him not being punished. Zuko from ATLA burned down a village of civilians, sent a hitman after Team Avatar, and was just lucky that no civilian was injured/killed, but everyone adores him. But Sasuke is unredeemable for threatening to destroy the village?

A back and forth on why Sasuke is a much better realized character, with thematic and narrative depth, compared to Kurapika and Zuko.

Sasuke is the imperfect victim unlike the perfect victims of ATLA and Full Metal Alchemist.

Sasuke's character is too good for the Naruto universe.

Are people upset that Sasuke was going to let the Shinobi Alliance perish?

Sasuke as a feminist icon.

Sakura is a female incel.

Sakura is a narcissistic.

Sakura inserted herself because she wanted validations from people who were out of her league, that's why. She is perfect for self-insert.

The mere idea of turning over an entire manga in your head in which Sasuke hides a raging boner (at age 12) for Sakura is... repulsive. Don't you have anything better to do?

Sasuke never kissed Sakura.

The blow on the forehead is not the maximum expression of love.

Naruto Gaiden is a fucking masterpiece! It proves that Sasuke doesn't love Sakura.

Sasuke retsuden is not canon.

Sasuke retsuden is not canon, Jun Esaka herself said it and if you are a fan of Sasuke it is normal that you hate Sakura because Sasuke is unhappy with her.

Sasuke still considers Sakura inferior.

Sasuke didn't push Sakura away because of the curse of hate.

Sasuke rejected Sakura, Ino and Karin, he didn't push them away because he was afraid.

Sasuke is not in love with Karin and did not have sex in part 2 with Karin.

Why Karin's fans say she had sex with Sasuke in part 2.

What does Kakashi know about the genocide and the physical and mental torture that would lead the child victim to a fatal coma, at the hands of a family member?

Naruto is a narcissistic.

Why Naruto is the worst character.

How can anyone read the two chapter panels showing two very different worlds the characters occupy and be surprised by the way it ended? They were not going to reconcile since the world where Sasuke exists is the antithesis of the world where his former team resides.

Lee was never "good” at Taijutsu, let alone being a genius at it. The series' main theme, revolves around bonds. When the manga began, Naruto let loose Kurama (unintentionally) against Haku, breaking all Ice Mirrors that ... no Jutsu could break; and that, happened way back in the Waves Arc. How does that associate "hard-work" with Naruto's character, upon whom many poor souls project their misfortunes to feel vindicated, when two geniuses (Sasuke and Kakashi) in the near-vicinity failed? Naruto powered through this via nothing but brute force; and that isn't a precursor to hard-work. That's the exact opposite. With the beginning of the next Arc, the "if we work hard, we could beat all odds, too" trope lovers got their kicks from Sasuke's humiliation at Lee's hands (or gates?); but then they conveniently forget that Lee himself stated that what Sasuke accomplished was literally impossible for someone like him (he even emphasized on this argument). Gai even went so far as to state that even with the Sharingan's power, Sasuke should never have been able to do what he did (he literally invented his own Taijutsu maneuver from Lee's in a single day; if that's not prodigious, I don't know what is); and Gai, last I checked, is an authority on the subject of Taijutsu, not you—yes, you! Sasuke mastered Kimimaro's CS in under two hours whilst Lee survived simply because Kimimaro was dying and he literally died whilst delivering a death-blow to Gaara and Lee; so thematically, narratively, and metaphorically, Sasuke matched an adversary against whom both Gaara and Lee lost? That and Lee was outshined by Sasuke twice in a row, going so far as to undermine Lee in his own life endeavors that involved years of sweat and tears?

Shikamaru's revenge is meaningless unlike Sasuke's.

People who support Nagato but vilify Sasuke sound a lot more idiotic than they think.

In defense of Fugaku.

How does Sasuke's revolution develop?

Why didn't the narrative validate Sasuke's radical change from Konoha's Will of Fire to the Revolution?

Itachi massacred the clan out of conscience.

The difference between Kushina and Itachi is not that big.

The policies of Tobirama Senju and the Uchiha genocide.

At what point will people stop demanding Sasuke?

Tsunade was at the forefront of the Second Shinobi World War that massacred the people of Nagato, plundered their land's resources, and continued to use the land as a battlefield resulting in mass deaths, poverty, and suffering. A war that Konoha started.

Why do so many people still blame Sasuke for Sasuke's past?

Uchihas do not have mental illnesses.

Sasuke vs Readers without empathy.

Kishimoto canon vs Studio Pierrot fanservice.

The brilliant change of perspective and theme between Hebi and Taka Sasuke; and that there is no writing defect in the moment in which Sasuke stabs Karin to reach Danzō.

Tobirama never accepted the Uchiha as true allies like Hashirama did, never trusting them, something he admitted so openly that his brother had to warn him "not to continue pursuing the Uchiha." And the Uchiha weren't planning to kill innocent people, they were planning to take over the government itself.

Kishimoto is anti sasusaku and anti naruhina.

Kishimoto never wanted to write Boruto.

The real Sasuke fans.

Sasuke winking at Sakura was never happened in the manga, it was a translation error.

[sasucaty]

"fuck konohars" we all say in unison.

[sueske]

remember when after hearing everything tobirama was basically like: so what if ur bro was forced to massacre ur entire clan on konoha orders, in the end it was useful to the village. cuz I do. tobirama says the uchiha ‘self-destructed’, shifting the blame onto them, as if they weren’t oppressed and when they tried to negotiate better for themselves they were always shut down.

[the-real-sasuke-uchiha]

I can't believe some guys accused the Uchiha of being too "self centred" and "unable to see beyond themselves" and then went and carved massive sculptures of their own faces on a mountain.

[leportraitducadavre]

“Sarada is the first Uchiha that awoke her MS out of a sense of pure love, unlike the rest of them that were rooted in hatred –she’s the first one to break the “Hatred Cycle” of the clan.”

*sighs* Listen, there’s nothing I’d like more than to leave Boruto and all of its byproducts behind for good, yet over and over again the rabid anti-Sasuke fandom comes back to trash on the original characters of the show for the sole purpose of chanting “old Uchiha bad, new Uchiha good” around a barely lit pit fire.

Allow me to quickly break this notion, as it doesn’t need much more inspection than a faint passing of our eyes through the original series to debunk it.

After hearing Naruto is sealed away alongside Hinata and everyone blames Boruto, Sarada starts crying and, in desperation, asks her dad to “help Boruto”, awakening her Mangekyou Sharingan.

[Contrary to what I initially believed as I thought she might be asking for help as she couldn’t move, she’s not injured, she appears to be (at most) in shock due to everything that Boruto has to face, so, in case you’re one of those Naruto fans that are used to have pretty plot-relevant, emotional moments after the initial awakening of an Uchiha’s MS, let me tell you: That’s not happening, at all.]

Regardless of the minuscule and for real, for real, not sarcastic at all, very-well thought and constructed attempt to empower a character whose relevance to the main plot lies in the fact that she is the only daughter of Boruto's mentor, many stans of the child saw this opportunity to trash on Sasuke’s power as an Uchiha (you know, the reincarnation of Indra itself), and to justify such an awakening of one of the most powerful forms of the Sharingan under the premise that “it’s a different type of awakening because it’s linked to love, not hatred.”

So, in order to fact-check such affirmation, let’s see how other characters achieved the Mangekyou:

Sasuke:

Sasuke awakes his MS originally from learning the truth behind his family’s genocide; before this (and I mean, chapters before this, as his MS is dedicated a total of three chapters) Obito explained that the Uchiha were planning a coup and that Itachi, to protect Konoha and his brother, committed the annihilation of his entire kin following the government’s orders. We see him crying before a new resolution is reached: destroy Konoha. His MS awakes due to his pain which turns to complete anger.

However, you wouldn’t believe how Sasuke has conscious access to both Mangekyou:

That’s right folks, he has conscious access over his right MS by thinking of those he wants to protect, Team Taka and Team 7. So this “hatred” cycle that powers up his Sharingan is fuelled by one thing and one thing only: love.

Furthermore,

Sasuke got conscious access over his left MS technique when trying to save Karin, as she’s a very dear comrade of his. Something similar happened when he awakened his Sharingan versus when he got conscious access to it when trying to save Naruto.

[Sasuke awoke the Sharingan when he was eight years old, so the idea that “haha, Sarada awoke her MS when she was younger than him so she’s better!” is stupid as he awoke it when he was at least four years younger when facing the genocide of his people, unlike her that got it from daddy issues. In fact, awakening MS or the Sharingan before or after has nothing to do with the person's capacity as a ninja as it solely depends on the traumatic events that said person experiences. It's safer to say that her emotional threshold is significantly lower than her father's given the "peaceful" times in which she grew up than to claim a "superiority" based upon the age they both experienced traumatically enough events to influence their chakra and develop or evolve their doujutsu.]

Obito:

Obito, somewhat similar to Sasuke (and this is due to their feelings, as they’re heartbroken and such pain triggers their raw hate), awakes his MS when he sees the girl he loves get killed by the boy he started to consider a friend when he was twelve/thirteen years old. His feelings are so strongly connected to his Sharingan that they also evolve the doujutsu that Kakashi possesses.

However, there’s a striking difference between how Obito awakened his Sharingan (basic form) and how Sasuke or even Sarada did as he achieved such power when trying to save his comrades.

[Sasuke awoke the Sharingan due to the pain he felt when seeing his parents get killed by his brother, which turned into hatred when Itachi "explained" his reasons. Meanwhile, Sarada got her Sharingans due to the pain she felt when her father didn't recognize her, which turned into fear when he threatened to kill her.]

Obito’s Sharingan was completely awakened by a sense of protectiveness over those dear to him, in other words, love. 

Every single Sharingan or evolution of the same doujutsu is driven by the same emotion. From there, it either derivates to different states (pain, hate, grief, and so on), or it doesn’t, but no Uchiha can access either form without feeling a strong positive connection with someone or something they are trying to protect.

P.S: Unrelated, but look how pretty Kishimoto's art is compared to Ikemoto's (who also sexualizes minors constantly, as this is the cover of the newest volume), Sasuke looks so ugly and Sarada's MS is the most awful thing I've ever seen. No wonder the manga is flopping. Yikes.

Edit to add: It’s devastatingly hilarious how the whole point of Sarada’s Mangekyou wasn’t even about her; nor her power, nor the relevance of her bonds, it was about making a powerful enough moment for Sasuke to believe her and help Boruto! Everything becomes, yet again, about Sasuke.

[theheirofthesharingan]

Do you believe in the "curse of hatred" that Tobirama won't shut up about? Are Uchihas really dangerous like that?

I've never really gone into Tobirama's head because I don't personally like him as a character/person, but I did do some research for this ask.

So, he dislikes Uchiha. He lived in the Warring Era with Uchiha clan being their worst enemies and their biggest rivals. Of course that would influence his views on the clan and its people, because as soon as he sees Sasuke with Orochimaru, his instant reaction is to lump him with the man, without knowing anything about him.

However, at the same time, he also associates Uchiha clan with love.

As someone who had battled against them, saw how they fought and their strengths and weaknesses, he has a fair idea of the psychology of the Uchiha. What he's describing has a living and shining example in none other than Madara himself.

He seems to begrudge and admire the Uchiha. He's prejudiced against them and it's only natural because of their shared history. So, when he's calling out the Uchiha, it has a good reason. If the Uchiha were asked about the Senju, they would most likely have the similar opinion. Not all, because, yes, they accepted Tobirama's leadership over Madara's, but still. And if you notice, Tobirama specifically mentions people who shared Madara's will. He had a positive view on Kagami Uchiha.

Anyway, like I said before, he understood the Uchiha pretty well and it's not right to say that his judgement was "wrong" because what he's describing is actually a very human response, and that much love can lead to that much hatred too. It's just the extreme of the emotions and he's objectively not wrong about it. He's wrong to associate those qualities only with the Uchiha, though.

Sharingan reflects one's deepest despair and pain and we know extreme trauma awakens one's Sharingan and Mangekyo Sharingan. And the more an Uchiha suffers, the more powerful their eyes become. Sasuke is a prime example of it. Kakashi, who isn't even an Uchiha, when he felt pain and regret of the insurmountable level, he also awakened his Mangekyo. Was he an Uchiha? No. He was a human who had suffered extremely in a moment and reacted to how Tobirama describes an Uchiha would. Yes, Kakashi doesn't go out of his way to cause destruction like Obito does, but that's simply because of the outside influence of the people around them.

Kakashi was surrounded by people who loved him and Obito was lonely and manipulated into thinking he could change some things. In short, Obito's vulnerability and loneliness were taken advantage of, while Kakashi found people who cared about him.

Furthermore, people in the fandom defend and justify the Uchiha hating Senju, because of everything, but then turn a blind eye to whatever Uchiha did to Senju as well.

This, baby Itama was surrounded by a bunch of grown Uchiha men.

And killed.

Senju are evil and cruel for killing Izuna and anyone who loves that clan is depraved according to the fandom activists, but hey, how dare Tobirama hold grudges against the Uchiha for doing this to his brother.

The endless cycle of hate and violence that the main story repeatedly talks about stems from this. Truthfully, both the Uchiha and the Senju were at fault for perpetuating it. For what happened to the Uchiha clan, only Senju were not responsible, but also Madara.

Senju and Uchiha were both prejudiced against each other and they both institutionalised it. Madara through raw power when he continued to attack Konoha after becoming rogue, and Tobirama did it through the political power he held. Neither of them were innocent. But as is said, victors write history, and the narrative glorifies the idealogy shared by Naruto, Uchiha's love is antagonised and Senju are shown as good guys.

The Shinobi system itself is ruthless. It doesn't see humans as humans. I wouldn't call Tobirama a perpetrator of it, because he's the product of two system too, but he fails in his judgment, and is quite wrong about what he thinks about the Uchiha.

We see intense and violent reactions in many other characters in wake of losing the people they and the heartbreak that follows. How many of them were Uchiha? Konoan? Gaara? Nagato? None.

Tobirama doesn't see Uchiha in the positive light and it is understandable. He wants people who are loyal to Konoha. I believe we know more about Hashirama and his ideology regarding the village than we know about Tobirama. For Hashirama, the lives of people were important and that's why he wanted to establish the village. But what did Tobirama want? Did he care about the land? Did he care about the people? He seems completely okay with the fact that Uchiha clan was exterminated.

And contrary to the popular belief in the pro Uchiha camp that claims he "praised" Itachi for massacring his clan, the man doesn't see Itachi any differently, despite hearing the whole story from his own student and successor. What was he really so fixated on the village for if he cannot love its people?

Tobirama describes the intense and powerful reactions in an Uchiha that has them cursed. He says "cursed clan" rather than the "cruse of hate", because I can't find the exact words where he says that (I'd add those if someone can provide me with page/panels).

He has bad experiences, but his problem is that despite being in the position of the power and being responsible for everyone, he refused to grow up. He refuses to sympathise with a child whose family was murdered at the orders of his successor. He refuses to sympathise with a child who was forced to kill his parents and then died at his brother's hands.

He sees his own pain greater than the others (Sasuke's, Itachi's, Madara's) and justifies his prejudices based on them.

[coellico]

"Tobirama never trusted the Uchiha"

Yes.

He showed trust to all the other clans, clans that were also enemies during the Warring States period, but he never truly trusted the Uchiha, this is incredibly disrespectful. You could say that it was because of the curse of hatred that they could not be trusted, but Madara lost all of his brothers at the hands of the Senju, including his closest brother to none other than Tobirama himself, but Madara was willing to put that aside in the pursuit of peace. Tobirama's distrust of the Uchiha was passed down to the following generations, whether he wanted it or not.

This led to his student Danzo harboring a great hatred and distrust for the Uchiha, which led to them being forbidden from protecting their home from the attack of the Nine Tails. Their literal home that they had helped build, that they had helped protect for all these years was under attack by a monster and their clan was probably the best suited to defend their home from such a monster, but they were forced to just stand by as it destroyed everything and killed thousands, all because even after all these years they were still untrustworthy, for no other reason than their name and crest.

Not only were they forbidden from protecting their home, this was then used against them to paint them as the culprits of the attack. They were literally told that they could not join the fight, they followed those orders and then they were painted as the masterminds behind the attack because they were absent from the battle they wanted to participate in.

So when the village is being rebuilt, instead of them being able to live wherever they want like they were before the attack, they were now forced to gather in one place, right on the outskirts of the village. This is the village they created, and now they are being restricted to living in a small part of the village, where they are now under constant surveillance 24 hours a day.

The Uchiha were persecuted and oppressed, painted as terrorists for crimes they never committed, and eventually exterminated as a result of Danzo's actions, which were a result of Tobirama's influence.

Tobirama's refusal to trust the Uchiha and treat them right eventually led to the extinction of the entire clan.

[comikadraws]

how often is hashirama demonized or made out to be a villain while having his positive qualities ignored or even omitted compared to tobirama? it seems to be that tobirama is more disliked and even demonized.

Definitely. Though I can also see why and, to a degree, agree with them.

Of course, there will always be exceptions (for example, I have a mutual who harbors a burning hatred for Hashirama), but generally speaking, Hashirama often gets treated like an angel compared to Tobirama.

Hashirama is the one who founded the village and fans usually associate him with that perfect image Hashirama made up in his mind. Peace, stability, friendship.

But Tobirama is the one who actually structured the village and fans associate him with his failings. The brutality of the shinobi system, the wars waged by Konoha, the corruption in the village's government.

Both, I find, are actually fair assessments of their characters, though very one-sided. The nuances are missing.

What I believe people like to forget is that most of the village and its political relationships were built and structured by Tobirama during Hashirama's time in office. That means Hashirama oversaw the process and agreed to Tobirama's ideas.

As I explained in a different post, and as paradoxical as it may sound, Hashirama's initial goal to protect the lives of children became second to the wellbeing of the village. The village that was established for the purpose of protecting children. As Hashirama lost sight of his original goal, children were sacrificed and ended up protecting the village and not the other way around.

Madara says that Hashirama mistook the cause for the end or put the cart before the horse, depending on the translation. Hashirama, looking back at his village's history, openly admits that these were circumstances he had considered acceptable in the grand scheme of things. A mistake, as we all know.

To make matters worse, Tobirama also gets the bigot treatment from the fandom. Or rather, the fandom has identified him as what they perceive to be a racist. I have further talked about the whole issue in this post, but long story short, Tobirama makes a good training dummy for that sort of discussion but within a fandom context - even if it distorts Kishimoto's initial vision, as I have explained in this post.

What is strangely interesting is that Hashirama seemingly agrees with Tobirama's theories (about the nature of the Uchiha Clan) yet doesn't get the same amount of hate that Tobirama does for this prejudice. I have previously explained this detail in this post. The fandom's perception seems to be influenced a lot by Tobirama's and Hashirama's respective personalities and their resulting actions rather than beliefs.

And Hashirama genuinely does have more (or at least more striking) positive traits than Tobirama. He is more likable. Meanwhile Tobirama's personality, in the databooks, is described as "bold, zealous, rational, principled", whereas Hashirama's traits are listed as "warm, considerate, carefree and easy-going". Particularly Tobirama's brutal honesty and rationality are unpopular character traits.

I also somewhat implied this above, but I also believe the fandom tends to simplify and reduce the Hokage a lot to their most striking character traits or their most striking accomplishments/failings (which are not even necessarily connected to their time as Hokage).

You can see that reflected in polls. This one was made by @/narutopolls.

Hiruzen "wins" by a ridiculous percentage because he is the Hokage whose failings we have been confronted the most with during the series. His leniency on Danzo and Orochimaru, the Third Great Shinobi War that was waged during his reign, Naruto's neglect and ostracization, the mishandled Hyuga Affair, the Uchiha Genocide, and so on and so forth.

The problem is just that we don't really know that much about the other Hokage and their respective legacies aside from Tsunade maybe. Most of the decisions we see from her are in relation to Naruto, but even then she does do things for the village like founding medical law or strengthening relations with Suna. But also, her reign was not as morally complex as other Hokages' and she had the power of hindsight on her side, thanks to Danzo already having proven his untrustworthiness during Hiruzen's reign. The decisions she made are not exactly decisions other Hokage wouldn't have made in that specific scenario (Hiruzen also tried to prevent wars if we look at the Hyuga Affair and wasn't opposed to medical law, even if he didn't act on it). But we honestly don't know what Tsunade would've done in their shoes. Still, she just so happens to be a very positive, likable character with no obvious political disasters. She had less screw-ups, sure, but also she reigned during a less morally challenging time. Is she a positive figure? Yes! Would she still be if the circumstances were harder? No idea!

In regards to Minato and Kakashi, we barely even know what they did in office. Could be anything, really, but they have likable personalities and cool fights, so they are better regarded than the others and we assume that they must have excelled as much as political leaders as they have excelled in our hearts.

Naruto we also barely know anything about. You could give him shit for not abolishing the use of child soldiers, but neither did any Hokage before him. Or you might dislike him for stopping Sasuke's revolution, but he did that before his time as Hokage. So why did Naruto get voted third worst Hokage? I'd daresay it's because people were able to watch his failings on screen and that soured his character for them.

All of this is just to prove that (with the exception of Hiruzen) people seem to base their perception of a character's competence on their affinity toward that character.

And now, apply all this to Tobirama and Hashirama. We barely have any particular failings to directly connect to Hashirama. We just know about his founding of the village, his mercy and empathy for the Uchiha, and his positive personality. But that's because we never saw him actually fulfilling his Hokage duties to begin with. Additionally, while in office, he had the support of his more rational and cunning brother to prevent political disaster. He was never given the opportunity to disappoint us.

In the case of Tobirama, he gets credited specifically for the village's (poor) planning, he openly expresses prejudice toward the Uchiha (who are fan favorites), and has an unlikable personality. In the case of Tobirama too, we never got to see him in the position of Hokage and only ever witnessed the aftermath. Unlike Hashirama, for all we know, Tobirama did not receive any particular assistance to balance out his negative personality traits. He was never given the opportunity to win us over.

This creates a sharp contrast between the two. It elevates one brother's failings and facilitates choosing a "worse" brother to turn into a scapegoat for the other. And while, yes, certain things apply to both Hashirama and Tobirama (their willingness to train and use child soldiers, or their shared belief in the Uchiha's innate predisposition to strong love and hatred), we can also say that one of them actively caused those circumstances while the other mostly just condoned or supported them. They are both responsible, just to different degrees.

The only thing I really disagree with is that many fans completely absolve Hashirama of all blame or fail to even notice his faults to begin with.

[obitoslover]

I don't know if that's a well-known information here, but did you know it's canon Tobirama buried Madara's corpse just to study his sharingan? He was initially trying to destroy his corpse, but changed his mind about the subject

Who knows what kind of tests/experiments he did with Madara's corpse shadow clone (I mean, no way it disappeared, otherwise Tobirama would know Madara was faking his death and informed at least Hashirama)...

Also, he locked Madara's corpse and tied the coffin with ropes and stakes! That's a corpse, man, he should will not just stand up and kills you at night, chill... (and no one would find it, anyway, since Tobirama hid it deep in the mountains)

Adding: It seems like the Uchiha clan didn't seem to care enough about making a proper burial to Madara's corpse, since it's never told and/or showed what Tobirama did was common knowledge within the Uchiha or.. anyone who isn't Black Zetsu

Anyway Madara's a goat to refuse death, even though I dislike izanagi and izanami jutsus @lalalover33-blog

[nartml]

My blood boils every time, every damn time, I think about how Sasuke was treated. Specifically in comparison to Orochimaru. That absolute scumbag was the true definition of evil, and he got off with just a slap on the wrist??

And Sasuke, someone who didn't actually commit any significant crime other than killing Danzo (which, good for him btw) and wanting to destroy the village (wanting to do something and actually going through with it are two worlds apart), someone who just wanted justice for the shit the system has put him –and his family– through, gets treated so disgustingly? They want to lock him up for what? For the actions caused by the trauma they put him through? Fuck that.

It's ludicrous to me how some people are okay with that? How do some people not see how fucked that is?

Yeah, no thanks.

[the-real-sasuke-uchiha]

The Uchiha don't love too hard, they love normaly. But of course, if your love standards are "I would kill my child for the state" or "I will make a nuke of my wife", for sure you will be astonished when finding the slightest form of true love.