#anti tobirama fandom

[dranosh-haran-of-paleoworld]

First time creating a meme, and I'm happy with how it turned out, lol

[leportraitducadavre]

Tobirama might have been prejudiced toward Uchiha, but he drew the line on human experimentation...

Oh, well, he conducted undisclosed autopsies on Uchiha's bodies, but he drew the line on human sacrifices...

Oh, well, Edo-Tensei needs human sacrifices, but he drew the line on using innocent people...

Oh, well, who exactly is innocent when they all partake in a system based upon oppression and warfare, but he drew the line on using children...

Oh, well, he created the exams that sends children to warlike scenarios, but he drew the line on hurting allies...

Oh, well, Uchiha were their allies and he still created a system that harmed them specifically, but he drew the line in--

[naruto-general-opinions]

[loveforsasuke]

Why do you hate Tobirama? I think he is right you see the uchiha's...right? (sasuke, madara, obito)

haha, no. he's not right, he's just racist and stupid.

if u think he's right, there might be something sus about you too💀

yea, i saw the uchiha's. i understand what you're trying to say with this.. but you're just an idiot, so ☺️

[naruto-shipping-confessions]

[madaraswarfan]

apparently madara not only traumatized tobirama and made his life and every decision he makes revolves around him but also he managed to traumatize some of his pathetic stans .. all of you are his bitches for real and that's how you will always be for every uchiha and their stans

[captainshadowgirllostfan]

I spent my entire fucking middle school hearing people dump on Sasuke as this emo kid etcetera etcetera. If I wanna defend this character I will. What I wonder is why you have a problem with it? You wanna hate, go hate. But don't whine if I got something to say about it, like I'm not allowed to defend a character I like. It feels like this is the only fandom, people got a problem with doing that and yet every other fandoms has free reign.

[zxxalta]

Leave it to the Naruto fandom to be racist against a fictional group of people

[plumsaffron]

Senju dung said in exclamation to Sasuke that The Uchiha are A Clan Possessed By Evil.

Hah and Orochimaru was like Madara really hurt your very existence that bad.

[slowlysointernet]

A very small minority of Tobirama fans actually understand his character but the majority are just Uchiha haters. Like that's their defining trait as a fandom.

[leportraitducadavre]

Why are the Uchiha considered a non-oppressed group? Naruto's fandom, specifically pro-Konoha readers, tend to claim that neither Sasuke nor his family was actually oppressed nor discriminated against prior to their killing; furthermore, some tend to state that it's for this supposed reason that the massacre was justified, as not only they perceived no injustice when presented with evidence of their treatment at the hands of those in positions of power (who should've had guaranteed their survival at the very minimum, as that was the reason for the village's creation), but also consider their plan to coup a consequence of their "traitorous" nature; a disservice after everything "Konoha did for them".

Some other fans, not much smarter than the first group, are willing to admit some of the discrimination they suffered; but they are reluctant to see such conduct as a learned animosity, labeling it as a "modern occurrence" (when speaking of Hiruzen's timeframe). According to them, the Uchiha had just begun to be discriminated against, so their reaction was disproportionate; apparently, it's mandatory to wait for such bigotry to be repeated for a few generations before considering it a systematic occurrence rather than an isolated event.

Genocide doesn't happen in a vacuum, it's not an option that is plausibly considered if not after years or decades of cultural and political repression and degradation. It's the growth of a slow but consistent process of dehumanization, to the point where those taught under such a regime of thought truly consider their life, rights, and opinions far more valuable and important than those they degrade.

Arresting or even killing the clan members that actually wanted to coup would've been far more understandable had those in power seen Uchiha humane enough for their lives to be considered, to matter; yet the elders quickly saw mass murder as an enticing option, sending one of the kin they wanted to exterminate to do their dirty job so they wouldn't lose "one of their own" and still look pristine.

They were able to do so and still see themselves as agents of peace because they were taught that they were on the right side of history, as the story was told from their perspective; the handwriting of their mentor shines dark and spotless on the parchments of their national library.

And, as for them, there were no real losses that day, their life continued. And those responsible for the death of dozens kept smiling, kept walking amongst the classmates of the children they sent to murder, telling them to fight for their memory, to give meaning to the pain by growing.

The fandom still believes that their death was requited, necessary, and fair; putting the blame of the genocide at most upon two sets of shoulders (Danzo, Hiruzen) instead of (at least) six (Tobirama, Danzo, Hiruzen, Koharu, Homura and Itachi), because they truly think that such an idea can be created out of thin air and it's not the consequence of an oppressive system that it's constantly demoting a specific group's value; because they truly think that the Council is acting on their own volition and isn't abiding the structure set by those before them. To them, four men and a woman created and taught themselves their own moral, social, and cultural parameters for this specific portion of the story before renouncing them and subscribing once again to their teachers (who somehow are painted as ~agents of peace~).

But alas, let's dissect some of their arguments, perhaps like this some of their brilliance shall illuminate us:

Their doujutsu and overall pride as a clan. The Sharingan is probably the most powerful doujutsu inside the Narutoverse (slightly less so than the Rinnegan but that needs the Sharingan as a base to develop), which for them translates into their clan having a “natural advantage” over others during a battle; thus, if they are so strong, how come they are oppressed? For them, that’s a contradiction because they can only phantom oppression if it’s visible, as in physical: literal submission through physical strength. Yet the Sharingan is canonically expressed to be a rare outcome inside the family, a rarity that just a few members of the clan possessed, so it’s a “natural advantage” that not many Uchiha have nor had at the time of their murder. But the tale hasn't finished, because there's a recurrent joke amongst these antis, for "how come the Sharingan is so powerful yet they were whipped by Itachi in just one night!", they shout, hyena laughter amidst their group; yet they don't talk further as not to attract detractors with quick wit, as they don't take into account (can't take into account) not only the prior point but also Obito’s participation -who was in charge of killing the strongest members of the clan but Fugaku (the later who decided not to fight), and without minding the context in itself as Itachi sneaked into clan members' homes and killed them when their back was turned, as he took advantage of the trust they bestowed upon him.

They were the ones who were “entrusted” by Tobirama to make Konoha’s citizens respect the law -summarizing, they were “given” the Police Force. In this specific regard, the police force inside the Narutoverse is directly compared (and therefore, read) to its real-life counterpart, yet: a- The Uchiha’s job was to be carried inside a military state, most of the citizens inside Konoha have tools at their disposal to either evade or fight back the Uchiha's "authority". It's difficult for them to read such phrases for it shatters their self-insertion; how come Naruto isn't about my self-perceived value inside the country I inhabit? b- The Police Force’s power, influence, and control were directly limited by the Hokage, they couldn’t arrest ANBU members (meaning those who were, one in charge of spying on them, and two a big portion of Konoha’s forces). c- Uchiha couldn’t aspire to be something else but members of the police. The only ones who could work outside that specific force were those individuals that abandoned their identities as clan members and swore allegiance to Konoha. Only Itachi (the perpetrator), Shisui, and Kagami (who were luckily dead before the events of the UCM transpired) were shown outside such a limited sphere. No other clan was shown to need such extreme measures to work in their chosen field. The fact that the prison was constructed to be inside their compound prior to them being moved to the outskirts of the city isn’t enough for them to understand that this specific job was forced upon Uchiha. "It's easier for them to keep an eye on the prisoners," they claim, clicking their tongues, yet won't see what it politically entails, for Uchiha members can never detach themselves from their duty, as it was physically adhered to their lands. "It's a duty they could thrive on," they vomit, and they did, yet no one sees -because it all happens inside their own compound. Not a single clan is shown to “have one specific job” inside Konoha but the Uchiha. d- Nevermind the very real and canonic impact that such work has amongst Konoha citizens, as the lesser members of Konoha's militia grow resentful of those that "control" them; in addition, such position also prevents the Uchiha from properly integrating amongst the general population, as they can't commune completely with those they need to keep tabs on. Was the Police Force ever rebuilt after the UCM? ANBU forces were quick to absorb their duties after the Kyuubi attack, decreasing at a much faster speed their position inside the place they built. The Police Force was dismantled and forgotten after the massacre, further proving the real irrelevance of such duty and the actual hidden purpose in its creation. e- How come the Uchiha "monopolized" a force that was literally and canonically given to them? How did they take over and denied anyone else's presence inside that structure when not only did they not create it but the prison was built by the government itself inside their compound? Someone with fewer brain cells than them will think that it's Konoha's government the one limiting the nature of the members that had to forcefully take care of that task, as clan compounds have restrictions on who can enter; but not them -oh no, ah, the wisdom of these people amazes me...

Their members’ popularity. Specifically, Sasuke and Itachi. What they say while fidgeting in their seats is simple: "how come Itachi (prior to the massacre) and Sasuke (after) were so praised by non-Uchiha if they were discriminated against"? And, ah, we could've finally reached enlightenment; yet their worldview is irrevocably simplistic, as systematic oppression doesn’t always translate into direct discrimination at the hands of other citizens. The Uchiha clan was moved to the outskirts of the city without any other family raising any eyebrows, they don’t have to be spitted on by other shinobi for them to be oppressed, that’s limiting the notion of discrimination/oppression to a single factor -the physical one, without minding the others. To explain it in lesser terms, as we must crouch down to speak to them to be on their level, saying that the Uchiha weren’t discriminated against due to lack of physical aggression, and I guess a genocide isn’t enough aggression for some, it’s like saying a man is a misogynist only if he slaps a woman. That way, monetary, social, cultural, and political domination are left out of the discussion, therefore, it’s limiting sexism to individuals’ actions rather than seeing the system these men were raised on and that it built their resolve to, finally, physically attack a woman. Uchiha were the only ones whose value was tied to their biological nature -no other families inside Konoha found as many restrictions as they did (might I remind you that there was a clan that happily enslaved their members and no one seemed to care?), their biology was enough reason to keep them both away of positions of power (meaning that the laws/decisions that influenced their lifestyle were made for them without a single Uchiha consultant), and restricting their movements inside their village. And I know many of these antis will claim “oh, but name one of the other noble clans (but the Nara’s, of course) that are actually in a place inside the Council, none of them were!” And you see, they miss the point by a mile, because the issue isn’t only the Uchiha not having incidence nor right to (at least) vote inside a village they founded, but specifically them being denied such presence under the premise of a biological predisposition that they have no control of. No other clan, whether they are or not at this point in time inside the Council, is denied a future position under those premises, they either can’t achieve it due to their lack of connections (Minato Namikaze, member of a non-noble clan was made Hokage due to his relationship with Jiraiya) or having not enough rank to participate (Morino Ibiki, also from a clan not specifically important, is the Head of the T&I Department).

[naruto-general-opinions]

[dranosh-haran-of-paleoworld]

Tobirama and Kakashi fandoms

Full offense but sometimes fandom just totally make up the characterization of a character and then complain when that isn’t canon

[naruto-shipping-confessions]

[leportraitducadavre]

"If you don't like this character, blame the author for their shitty writing"

I hate this specific argument so, so much, you have absolutely no idea. Alright, let's for some reason, dive in and allow this character to use "this defense", now what? No, really, now what? What are we supposed to do if we blame the author for everything "bad" the character does? Do we start to worship a fanon version of the same character that, by god, doesn't belong to us as the character is just a tool the author uses to tell a story? Do we completely rewrite it to fit our aesthetic tastes and moral compass as we believe to be a better writer or have a better grasp of reality than the OA despite their work being apparently so important to us that we love their character so much that we treat it as an independent being and not a fictional invent? Do we kiss the metaphorical ground that that character steps on for everything we do canonically like about it as they "did all of that" despite having the author against it as if those specific performances are somehow independent of the original writer's intentions?

What do we do then? Forgive the character as "those bad actions" were out of their control as they never had a choice on the matter while somehow the things they did that we do approve of get, somehow, highlighted as if that actually was their independent decision? If AO's writing is so shitty, why do you like the character in the first place? What compelled you to like a character of which you detest the writing? Why do you favour one specific character yet detest another one? Shouldn't you treat all characters equally if the problem isn't them but the "Author's shitty writing"?

[bunniefaery]

Claims Tobirama didn't hate the Uchiha for no reason and hen proceeds to quote things Tobirama said that contradict that, one of them being him asking his brother if he's heard the rumors about the Uchiha ocular power getting stronger with hate... Also the part where he said he treated anyone who pose a danger to the village with extreme caution (as if they weren't allies already)...

He spent his whole life, up to that point, fighting the Uchiha in war... But so did the Uchiha when it came to the Senju and they didn't think twice when choosing Konoha over Madara... Saying that he was right about their emotions, excluding two Uchihas, Kagami and Shisui, and the rest were fucked up in their own way and were led by their hatred or mistrust of the village...

Hatred... Mistrust? Since when is not wanting to be oppressed and discriminated against by the government in charge of the village your clan helped create, hatred and mistrust... ?

Tobirama said the leader should be chosen by the village, which we can all agree with... But was he, Hiruzen, Minato, Hiruzen on his second term, Tsunade, Danzo (for his brief time, before Sasuke saved Konoha from that nightmare), Kakashi, Naruto (perhaps), Shikamaru chosen by the village? 🙂

Yeah, that's what I thought...

This person saying Madara was trying to make them rise against the peace and safety they achieved, when he simply (while being mislead by zetsu, but was still right) trying to protect them from danger that he was noticing, because he felt something bad would happen to the clan if they remained in the village, especially since he suspected Tobirama would be named Second Hokage.

"How many Uchiha we've seen rise against their own self importance?" You mean how the Uchiha wanted to do a coup to protect themselves and the Uchiha children from further discrimination? Like how Sasuke wanted to get rid of the Shinobi system that had caused more harm than good? Like how Sasuke helped save the world and eventually went back on his plan because, even though he knew was right, he wanted to believe in Naruto and his dream for peace, yet was imprisoned, but Orochimaru wasn't?

Why would Tobirama give a position of power to the Uchiha, like the police force, if he saw no use for them and wanted them gone? It's almost like he also mentioned he wanted to keep an eye on them, in case another Madara showed up, despite the Uchiha turning their whole backs to Madara... And "if they self-destructed, for the sake of the Village, so be it" how are those words even ones anyone would use to claim a character doesn't hate a group of people? Especially when the context of it is Tobirama, and the other Hokage, excluding Hiruzhit, finding out that the Uchiha were exterminated, including the children, pregnant women, elderly, babies... Speechless 😶

"He was weary of them (with a good reason) but he also saw that they could be harnessed for to do good."

To Tobirama, to "transcend the framework of clan and devote themselves to the village" apparently means to commit mass murder and genocide against your own people, since he mentioned Itachi... And since he mentioned Kagami, well, does that mean he would be okay with what happened to his own people? I surely hope not...

Saying that Tobirama rose above the clan mentality but the Uchiha didn't is funny, because he never seems to think of the Uchiha as Konoha citizens but instead Uchiha clan members that need to be kept an eye on, because they're "sensitive individuals" who, if exposed to strong emotions, can be taken by "darkness" and fall "to evil"...

"Madara going completely crazy over something that he perceived but we have no actual evidence of" 🙂🙂🙂 he said Tobirama would be named Second Hokage and that the Uchiha wouldn't be safe anymore in Konoha, among other things... And what happened? Where are the Uchiha? 🙂

"Only two [Uchiha] had no bad deeds to their names" 🙂 so the children had bad deeds to their names? Weird.

Also saying he had gotten over his hate for the Uchiha and now only mistrusted them is a stretch, because he was openly spreading harmful rumors he heard about the Uchiha, called Sasuke a "brat possessed by Uchiha evil", said that the Uchiha clan were "a clan possessed by evil" and even admitted that it wasn't "entirely true" that he didn't hate the Uchiha, that is an admission of him hating them, just because he said it's not entirely true doesn't mean anything, when his actions and words say otherwise....

Unrelated to this: I am making a series on YouTube (you can find the link on my pinned post), essentially it's defending villains and characters deemed villains who had a point or were just hated for whatever reason (but not necessarily deserved all the hate). I, as a pro Uchiha, thought it'd be funny to do a sad attempt at defending this anime man. So yes, when it's out (along with other character videos in the same YouTube series I am doing) I hope you all go watch it.

Chief what even is your profile picture? HE HATED THE UCHIHA FOR NO REASON

He didn’t hate the Uchihas for no reason.

“There were many sensitive individuals among the Uchiha… and nearly all who were exposed to strong emotions were taken by darkness and fell to evil.”

“Besides which… have you not heard the rumors about the Uchiha? That the stronger their hate, the greater their ocular powers.”

“That’s not entirely true… I simply treated any who posed a danger to the village, no matter what clan they belonged to, with extreme caution. The Uchiha just happened to be a clan particularly disposed to be considered such. ”

Tobirama literally spend his entire life in a state of war and the biggest enemies his clan ever made were the Uchihas. The same way the Senju killed Uchihas, the same way the Uchihas killed Senju; Tobirama (and Hashirama) lost two little brothers in battles involving the Uchihas; Tobirama did land the killing blow on Izuna but at that point the two of them had spent actual years battling each other.

Tobirama was completely right about their emotions and the power granted by the Sharingan - with the exception of two named Uchihas (Kagami and Shisui, not including Itachi), everyone else fucked up in some major way and were led by either their own hate or mistrust towards the village.

Tobirama said that the leader should be chosen by the people, Hashirama was indeed the driving force behind the creation of the village, the people loved Hashirama and even the Uchihas didn’t think Madara was fit for the role. The Uchihas at the time literally turned Madara down when he tried to make them rise against the peace and safety they had managed to achieve. He was unable to deal with that, so he decided to bring the Nine-Tails to destroy the village. Tobirama was entirely right about what destruction any Uchiha can bring on. We don’t know of any other person who turned against the village during the time Tobirama was alive, except for Madara - an Uchiha who managed to unlock the OP Mangekyo and couldn’t deal with the fact that he simply wasn’t viewed as a leader of a peaceful village and that Tobirama would most likely succeed Hashirama. Madara’s entire fate ended up decided by his inability to deal with his emotions, which was what Tobirama was entirely aware of. Nevertheless, Tobirama had seen the good the Uchihas were capable of - Kagami - but at the end of the day, how many Uchihas we have seen that have risen above their own self-importance?

“What is all-important is the village. The village is the keystone.”

“I thought I had arranged and guided things such that the Uchiha’s power could be harnessed to serve the village. Although… if they self-destructed for the sake of the village, then so be it. Either way, in the end, they were of use to the village of Konoha.”

If Tobirama truly detested the Uchihas for no reason, he would never have given them a position of power such as being the police force. No one gives additional power to someone they see no use of and want to dispose of.

He was wary of them (with a good reason) but he also saw that they could be harnessed to do good. By entrusting them with the protection of the villagers, he probably thought that could help them put the village over the clan. He didn’t have a problem with them dying for the sake of the village, but he also wouldn’t have a problem with either him or Hashirama dying for the sake of the village because it’s their jobs as leaders to sacrifice themselves for the sake of everyone else (which he did).

“However… it is also because they could feel such deep love… that there were quite a few Uchiha over the years like your brother and Uchiha Kagami. They could transcend the framework of clan and devote themselves to the village.”

Tobirama had risen above the clan mentality, but the Uchihas never did. As such, based on his previous - bloody - experience with them, Madara going completely crazy over something that he perceived but we have no actual evidence of, and that out of all the Uchihas we have seen, only two had no bad deeds to their names, Tobirama has all the justifications for his distrust of the Uchihas. But distrust isn’t the same as hate - he had gotten over his hate for the Uchihas when they build the village, as he openly said that Kagami and others had indeed proven themselves to be trustworthy; yet, the Uchihas possess power, the nature of which would always bring mistrust to them, justified or not.