#anti Hashirama

[the-real-sasuke-uchiha]

There are no good hokages. Not a single one. Hashirama enabled his racist brother knowingly, and let him perform his deranged jutsu experiments. Hiruzen was a fully aware accomplice of a genocide instigator and let him roam free with no punishment. Minato did nothing against the oppression of the Uchiha and made a nuke out of a baby. Tsunade turned her head away from Danzo's conspiracies, it was under her rule that Danzo aimed at Sasuke's life when he was doing nothing against Konoha. Kakashi and Naruto swept a genocide under the rug and had genocide instigators working for them.

There isn't a single good one. All of them are criminals. All of them are guilty.

[leportraitducadavre]

My interpretation of Itachi's character is fairly contrasting with yours. I pose my arguments against your analysis. I hope I would get a lead unto having an unbiased opinion.

Itachi's position in here between was a rock and a hard place. Having witnessed horrors of wars he chose to the stop war. It wasn't the best decision but even still he accomplished many things.

A new Forth Great Ninja war was prevented. Uchihas plan wasn't to reform the government it was to take control of them. Their desires were clearly reflected in their demands. While half of them was about freedom, the rest was only to control village. This, along with Obito's plan for revenge and war, will definitely start a war.

Madara, with the pact, was foiled for more than seven years long enough for the strong Shinobis like Naruto and Sasuke to grow up and defeat him.

Sasuke's life was saved. Itachi would go at all lengths to protect his brother. Afterall, its only obvious he would be over-protective of Sasuke since both loved each other a lot(as siblings).

The Uchiha's reputation were saved. Imagine what would have happened to the Uchihas after the war. The people were already suspicious of the Uchihas and now we will have never ending persecution and would be branded as traitors, doesn't matter if the coup won or lost. The coup wasn't about reforming anyway.

People in the village got to be safe too.

And despite all these he still regretted a lot enough that he wanted the person he adored the most to kill him. Also, no one here is trying to justify his action. A justification and a reason has a clear distinction. Just because there was a reason it doesn't make the acts were justified. He himself acknowledged that. The writer didn't try to justify nor did Itachi himself. People like, Hashirama and Naruto, appreciated the role he played and praised him as a Shinobi.(being seen as a villan while protecting the people isn't easy, btw). They weren't justifying or glorifying his actions in any instance.

He wasn't an absolute nationalist. He he was an idealist. His motivations most cases(especially while making big decisions)were to 'not beget war' and 'maintain peace'. Doesn't matter if Uchihas managed to control the village it still starts war, death, destruction and countless losses which is exactly what Itachi hated from when he was 4. He also wanted to reform the village by becoming a Hokage. He wanted to wiped out the entire ninja system since ninjas were the ones who were used as a weapon for the Diamoyo start constant wars. The Leaf was sort of obnoxious in the time of Tobirama and Hiruzen's regime. But even still, the Hokages were good and passionate and also the people were innocent.

A new Forth Great Ninja war was prevented. Uchihas plan wasn't to reform the government it was to take control of them. Their desires were clearly reflected in their demands. While half of them was about freedom, the rest was only to control village. This, along with Obito's plan for revenge and war, will definitely start a war.

How do you even know it was prevented? Shisui stating that hidden villages will take advantage of Konoha’s civil war to invade was just a fear that was actually constantly proven wrong throughout the series; when Suna invaded and Konoha was destroyed (forcing it to send their most powerful shinobi out of the village to collect money) no other village took advantage of the situation, not even Kumo or Iwa, two of the big five that were not struggling politically or militarily as Suna, Kiri and Konoha were. Kumogakure even tried to kidnap Hinata while in the middle of signing a peace treaty, yet they did nothing against the Hyüga clan nor the village during one of their most vulnerable state.

Furthermore, you mean to tell me that a civil war (I am using that notion generously because Konoha is a military state with a non-civilian population, specifically trained for combat) destabilizes the military and economic power of a city, yet the complete disappearance overnight of one of the village's founding and most powerful clans does nothing to its structure? Other villages wouldn’t see the absence of Sharingan-wielders as an enticing opportunity to strike? Do you mean to tell me that a village was left without police to control it overnight (and their job is considered super important by detractors), yet the city did not succumb to chaos?

Their desires were clearly reflected in their demands.

What were their demands? Enlighten me.

While half of them was about freedom, the rest was only to control village.

Where do you get this information from? There’s nothing of the sort stated in the manga.

This, along with Obito's plan for revenge and war, will definitely start a war.

Obito’s plan needed the annihilation of the Sharingan-wielders as he didn’t want anyone capable of obtaining the Mangekyou to jeopardize his plan to control the ten-tails, Itachi killing the Uchiha literally allowed Obito to start the war!! 

Madara, with the pact, was foiled for more than seven years long enough for the strong Shinobis like Naruto and Sasuke to grow up and defeat him.

… what? This doesn’t make any sense and has nothing to do with Itachi… you mean to tell me that Itachi killing his clan made Sasuke as powerful as he is? Because Sasuke has always been powerful and has always been Indra’s transmigrant, and as I’ve said, Obito wouldn’t have been able to initiate the war (or at least would’ve been incredibly difficult for him) with the Uchiha clan still alive!

Sasuke's life was saved. Itachi would go at all lengths to protect his brother. Afterall, its only obvious he would be over-protective of Sasuke since both loved each other a lot(as siblings).

An eight-year-old was tortured mentally by his brother through Tsukuyomi by watching his clan and parents get killed over and over again, was left to live alone in a compound destroyed by his brother’s actions, having to clean his parents’ own blood and fend for himself –but at least he’s alive… the circumstances and solitude in which he grew is abysmal, traumatic, negligent and inhumane, but we don’t care as much about children’s safety as we do children being just alive.

There were other children in that compound, children that knew nothing of and participated not in the coup to which Itachi didn’t extend the same kindness he did his brother.

The Uchiha's reputation were saved. Imagine what would have happened to the Uchihas after the war. The people were already suspicious of the Uchihas and now we will have never ending persecution and would be branded as traitors, doesn't matter if the coup won or lost. The coup wasn't about reforming anyway.

What “reputation”? The Uchiha were always constructed under a negative light within Tobirama’s system, you lot keep saying they were saved from being seen as detractors when there’s not a single panel that states they were planning to change the system as a whole (rather take down the current government, which is not the same).

Furthermore, to think that they cared about the rest of the population's mindset regarding them is so incredibly simplistic I have to laugh at it –they’re the strongest clan in the village, without Uchiha, there’d have been no village in the first place, and they were already aware of the unfavorable perspective in which they were regarded by others, nothing in itself would’ve changed.

The Uchiha being seen as loyal to the village helped no one but the current system as it is, as they’re seen as a government without opposition, it wasn’t about maintaining the Uchiha’s honor, but keeping the fragile credit of the structure and those in power -if Uchiha died in their own terms, then other clans will know about the clan’s discomfort with the current mindset, and those that feel uncomfortable with it might find a group that validates such sentiments:

Kakashi admits to being uncomfortable with the way he's viewed by the system, he even uses plural when referring to ninja ("we ninja") -meaning there's a communal uneasiness with the whole situation.

The fact that the government silenced detractors (Uchiha) by killing them will only deepen further the general shinobi population's discomfort, which is why is imperative to silence the truth.

[On another note, why do you keep using "honor" as an excuse to execute an entire compound of people? The entire clan was decimated and the whole "honor" of the family rested as another responsibility Sasuke had to endure all by himself thanks to "Itachi's love" -they were left with no honor as Sasuke was forced to restore it! Furthermore, they're all dead! What is "honor" gonna do for them? For the massacred innocents at least? They did nothing wrong and were killed regardless, their honorable nature wasn't even being questioned!]

People in the village got to be safe too.

Safe of what? When was it stated they were going to fight against those who weren’t in power? The problem is they rebelling against those they deem their oppressors but not the government refusing to renounce their power in order to keep the “population they hold so dear” safe? They are both willing to kill innocents (so I guess some people in the village weren’t safe, but in your book, they don’t matter as much), and use the rest of the military population to strike against Uchiha (which is also, never actually stated!). The idea of a “within war” was never confirmed as the Uchiha had no chance to strike, no one is to say they weren’t trying to take power through force yet quietly, no one is to know what was their actual plan as that was never brought to light!

The Uchiha are wrong for wanting to take the power but the government isn't wrong for wanting to keep it, the Uchiha are wrong for their methods to seek authority but not the government for defending the status quo. Uchiha having power would mean annihilation, somehow, despite them being against just their oppressors, not Konoha as a whole; while the government seeks to protect the village despite massacring an entire and most important portion of their militia and one of the founders' clans.

And despite all these he still regretted a lot enough that he wanted the person he adored the most to kill him. 

He regretted nothing, he wanted Sasuke to kill him in order to both give him an objective and to distract him from finding out Konoha’s involvement in the Uchiha Massacre, shouldering the entire responsibility of their demisse.

Also, no one here is trying to justify his action. 

But you are, you wrote point after point why he had to kill his clan.

A justification and a reason has a clear distinction.

What distinction? You need to expand on the notions you think are relevant to you own argument. 

Just because there was a reason it doesn't make the acts were justified. He himself acknowledged that. The writer didn't try to justify nor did Itachi himself. People like, Hashirama and Naruto, appreciated the role he played and praised him as a Shinobi.(being seen as a villan while protecting the people isn't easy, btw). They weren't justifying or glorifying his actions in any instance.

What are you even writing? I’m being honest with that question, claiming to have a reason to kill his clan is used as a justification for his actions! I can’t believe I have to explain that to you. He never said he had no justification (their coup was treated as such over and over, everyone took advantage of them wanting to coup in order to both order the massacre and carry it out!!).

How on earth can you write “People like Hashirama and Naruto appreciated the role he played and praised him as a shinobi but they never justified him”, so are they praising him or not? Them positively reinforcing Itachi and praising him for “his sacrifice” (you see, not only he is perceived as a villain, he is a villain, he killed an entire kin -again, innocents included, in order to maintain specific people in power) is justifying his actions under the notion of the “greater good for the village”. 

He wasn't an absolute nationalist.

He did everything for Konoha! He even claimed himself to be “Itachi of the Leaf!” What are you even talking about?

He he was an idealist. His motivations most cases(especially while making big decisions)were to 'not beget war' and 'maintain peace'. 

Yet his actions concluded in Obito being able to control the Ten Tails with almost no real opposition as the only other Sharingan-wielder was Sasuke.

Doesn't matter if Uchihas managed to control the village it still starts war, death, destruction and countless losses which is exactly what Itachi hated from when he was 4. 

How do you know? Do you have an entirely new manga written by Kishimoto about what would’ve happened had the Uchiha taken over the village? Itachi hated Uchiha since he was four because they brought “war, death and destruction” but not Konoha that actually provoked such wars, deaths, and destruction, what an intelligent boy! 

You have to be a troll because, man, “unbiased opinion” my ass. Also, did you just come to my blog with arguments coming from Itachi Shinden? The story not written by Kishimoto?

He also wanted to reform the village by becoming a Hokage. He wanted to wiped out the entire ninja system since ninjas were the ones who were used as a weapon for the Diamoyo start constant wars. 

Funny, under Hiruzen’s regime he would’ve never become Hokage, furthermore, when did he even hinted to want to become Hokage?? Never in the entire manga. Also, the Daimyo did little to nothing when it came to wars, those were all the Kage’s responsibilities! Dear Lord, did you at least read Team 10’s Arc? Asuma’s background literally explains how the Shugonin Jūnishi fought each other because six of them wanted the entire military power of the Land of Fire to be managed by the Daimyo alone while the rest, Asuma included, defended the Hokage’s existence. 

The Leaf was sort of obnoxious in the time of Tobirama and Hiruzen's regime. But even still, the Hokages were good and passionate and also the people were innocent.

Which people were innocent? The children and non-Sharingan wielders that knew nothing of the coup and were massacred regardless? How can you write “the Hokages were good” while they literally ordered the mass killing of people they swore to protect? How can you use “obnoxious” and ���good” to describe the same two people?!

Gosh, the fact that you lot (Itachi stans) don’t comprehend that his involvement in the massacre of his own people alongside the protagonist’s endorsement of state-sanctioned genocide, makes the annihilation of an entire portion of a village a plausible option to handle internal disagreements is disastrous.

Committing genocide against the village’s own people sets a dangerous precedent where future governments can see and use such slaughter as a conceivable, even necessary, tool at their disposal whenever they feel threatened, making any clan vulnerable to the decisions of its government and guaranteeing the silence of possible detractors or even the censorship of constructive criticism of the political, military, economic and cultural system.

Jesus.

[comikadraws]

what does hashirama think of the uchiha?

Hashirama's Opinion of the Uchiha

It is somewhat difficult to assess Hashirama's relationship with and opinion of the Uchiha clan. Unlike Tobirama, Hashirama doesn't state his opinions out in the open. He doesn't make blanket statements like "the Uchihas are" or "the Uchihas do" and the flashbacks he has with members of the clan are limited to Madara only.

What we do see, however, are his characterizations of individual Uchihas and his reactions toward Tobirama's opinions regarding the Uchiha clan.

<Analysis under the cut>

Note: Red links are posts written by me and added for context. I recommend reading them to understand my thought process.

Belief in Tobirama's Theory

Starting off, Hashirama (like his brother), as far as I can tell, believes in the "Curse of Hatred" (or rather, whatever the fandom has come to describe as the "Curse of Hatred"). But since that term is not entirely correct (further explanation in my analysis of the Curse of Hatred), I'll instead refer to it as "Tobirama's Theory".

But of course, everything is a little more complicated than that.

Generally speaking, Hashirama is a very peace-loving person. This is one of Hashirama's core character traits, showing itself as early on as during his introduction. He consistently condemns conflict and violence and advocates for peace.

This character trait also manifests itself in how he deals with Tobirama's Theory. He takes the side of the Uchiha (possibly out of empathy or a wish for de-escalation). But while Hashirama does defend the Uchiha against negative remarks, he does not necessarily contradict them.

It is always "stop saying such things" and "don't slight them" (because they are in the room to judge us or they are too innocent to know) but never "you are wrong" or "you have no evidence for that". The focus is not on Tobirama's opinions regarding the Uchiha clan but on the fact that he is vocalizing those opinions.

Instead of protesting, we just see him standing there when Tobirama explains his theory to Sasuke. Yes, his expression looks sullen, or perhaps frustrated, but his lack of objection can be interpreted as an expression of tolerance if not approval. Though, I admit, this interpretation is entirely debatable.

But keep in mind he has no problem interrupting his younger brother or reprimanding (or threatening) him when he is out of line. Hashirama states that he would kill his brother if he were to endanger the village (which, for Hashirama, means the protection of children). That's how far his resolve goes. A resolve he does not demonstrate when it comes to rejecting Tobirama's Theory. Not that he should kill Tobirama for being prejudiced. But he could easily silence him if he so wished.

We can assume, however, that Hashirama indeed forbade Tobirama from spreading his ideas - hence we see no other characters ever mentioning the Uchiha clan's supposed amplified feelings of love and hate. Sasuke, who is an Uchiha himself, appears entirely clueless about the concept and not even Orochimaru or Obito pick up the theory as evidence of discrimination despite it being such an easy opportunity to win Sasuke's loyalty by convincing him that the village and its leaders were corrupt.

This tells us that, while Hashirama did agree with Tobirama's Theory, he did not agree with its publication for the sake of either peace and/or to protect the Uchiha from being judged unfairly because he empathizes with them.

Clan of Love

Despite most likely believing in his brother's theory, Hashirama does not draw the same conclusion from his findings. Where Tobirama makes the Uchiha clan look like a clan of hatred, Hashirama emphasizes their love. The worst he ever does is criticize Madara on an individual level rather than applying his experiences to the rest of the clan.

One reason for this difference in judgement, of course, is that Hashirama is considered a generally naive character. In contrast to Madara, he fully believes that showing his vulnerabilities to a former enemy is possible and that peace can be achieved. Unlike Madara, he is trusting and is more likely to have positive opinions regarding the people he meets. Hence, when it is revealed that Madara is an Uchiha and Hashirama a Senju, Madara believes that any friendship between them is impossible.

The other reason is Hashirama's empathy. When dealing with Sasuke, he refers to him as a "child" and quite often prioritizes or at least emphasizes his feelings. This contrasts with Tobirama's violent, defensive rage at the idea that Sasuke wishes to destroy the village.

This empathy, alongside Hashirama's nativity, is supported by the Fourth Databook.

This results in Hashirama having a much more positive opinion of the Uchiha clan. He trusts that they have good motives and humanizes them whenever he gets the change. He recognizes their love first and their hatred second. With Tobirama, this is the other way around.

Conclusion. For better or for worse, I actually believe that Hashirama's and Tobirama's views on the Uchiha clan align for the most part. The difference between the two is mostly just their inherent attitude.

[mdr-reikas]

100% agreed on the whole way naruto shippers clearly do not actually care about or like madara and sasuke. for example fucking sasusaku shippers clearly do not notice or care about how sasuke is miserable fighting for some village that ruined his life and that no one knows the truth about the uchiha massacre they just see him as some strong skinny twink bishie boi who is only nice to their precious self insert sakura they see him as a thing for sakura. don't even get me started on fucking tobirama x madara or the toxic tobirama stans in general, i have seen horrific shit of madara being violently raped by tobirama on ao3 as a punishment of his crime for "being an uchiha who hasn't been humbled". the sad thing is that i have seen crossover romance shipping fanfic that actually respects both madara and sasuke as characters (making sure they ain't OOC or stripped of their nuance/personality) and they have more chemistry with characters from different anime/manga series. both madara and sasuke deserve better from this damn fandom than just being hashirama and naruto's cute little waifus who constantly get kidnapped like Princess Peach and get pregnant with uchiha babies like a fucking Uchiha baby factory.

So real!!! I think one of the reasons why this happens sometimes is because a lot of naruto fans/shippers are very pro konoha, so anything that Madara or Sasuke do is instantly a crime against humanity to them, so in order to make their ship work they have to take their morals and issues away from Madara and Sasuke, so they "aren't evil" anymore.

Also, that last part about t*birama/madara is so true. I mean, aside the fact that Madara would never be able to forgive him for killing Izuna, Tobirama also just had zero respect for him as a person. Tobirama felt no empathy for the Uchiha, and to pretend that he would set that aside for Madara is just insane to me. It's fine as a crack ship or if you write it to be intentionally toxic (which can be fun sometimes), but just taking away all the nuance these two characters have to make them fuck??? why?? Like, with hsmd I atleast understand where people are coming from, childhood friends trope and all, but what is the appeal of tobimada? No one who actually likes Madara would be able to ship tobimada, and no one who actually likes Sasuke would be able to ship sasusaku.

Madara and Sasuke definitely deserved sooo much better, they deserved loving people who actually respected them and their dreams (and no hsrm did not respect mdr's dreams while he was still in the village let's not play pretend).

[theheirofthesharingan]

Hashirama was a jerk when he told Sasuke that Madara loved his brother more than Itachi. Who was he to talk about Itachi and how he loved. What did he know. Who named him the master of the lovemeter. That and praising Itachi for killing his clan saying he was a better shinobi than him. As if Itachi did that to earn merits as a shinobi, as if he hadn't been coerced to do it. As if he was Konoha's hero instead of its victim. I hate Hashirama so much.

I won't call him a jerk because he didn't know anything about Itachi. He didn't meet Itachi to draw this conclusion. He didn't hear much from Sasuke about Itachi. He only heard some things from Hiruzen, and the way Hiruzen describes him, he makes the image of a perfect Shinobi, not a child who was used and manipulated by the system. So, Hashirama praised the Shinobi that stopped the war rather than sympathise with a broken child.

As a person, though, no, he didn't care about Itachi at all. Otherwise he wouldn't make the remarks like he did.

I don't even care if Madara loved Izuna more or not. Izuna is an irrelevant character in the story, unlike Sasuke and Itachi both. Izuna is important to Madara, but not the narrative. People who think otherwise just have a hate-boner for Itachi and want to dismiss everything he did and represented, for which they don't mind contradicting the words written by Koshimoto himself.

Hashirama just had a view of a Shinobi, because of his own experience in war. But I'd still like him to remember that the lives of Itachi and Sasuke were shaped by his own failed policies, Tobirama and Madara going "my pain is greater than everyone else's" where Itachi just kept it all inside.

Truthfully, Itachi is not only the greater Shinobi than Hashirama (I'm not even debating against that), he's a far better person than either Hashirama or Madara or Tobirama could ever dream to be.

If he had half the authority and freedom of the other three (either as the Hokage or the clan head) he would have made much better decisions. But we're not going into that.

[lira456]

Rwandan Genocide parallels to Uchiha clan genocide

Hutu led country government discrimination towards minority Tutsi ethnic group of people

Senju led Konoha discrimination towards minority Uchiha clan

[naruto-general-opinions]

[the-real-sasuke-uchiha]

I can't believe some guys accused the Uchiha of being too "self centred" and "unable to see beyond themselves" and then went and carved massive sculptures of their own faces on a mountain.

[leportraitducadavre]

Fear and Racism - an analysis of Tobirama’s advocates

During all my years on Tumblr, I’ve found constantly the same argument regarding Tobirama’s views on the Uchiha, and while most (if not all) of his fans tend to justify his behavior over the vastly discussed COH theory that considered them biologically and emotionally unstable and thus, needing the government’s control, many others avid readers tend to defend or understand (at least partially) his views and decisions upon the premise of fear. More specifically, his fear of the Uchiha’s power, a sentiment born and developed during his youth as a member of his clan that lost beloved ones at Uchiha’s hands and was forced to face them in battle.

I will not dwell on the fact that many other (if not all) noble clans composing Konoha also incurred in such duels, and it’s likely that the Senju and other families also fought during the Warring State Era. The Uchiha was the Senju’s primary opposite force, yet not the only one, still, that “fear of insurrection” was solely focused upon a single family instead of a vast group of different people. In that sense, this fact alone disintegrates the argument that Tobirama was “prejudiced” rather than racist, as prejudice refers to a preconceived idea (positive or negative) about a particular person or group not based on prior experience nor knowledge, while racism involves an unequal distribution of power on the basis of ethnicity. The fact that Uchiha was the only clan forced to perform a single job (that limited their political influence and also prevented their complete integration in Konoha), were spied on by ANBU members, and were moved to the outskirts of the city (not by the Nidaime but following the same segregationist policies established by him), are actions performed by two different governments under the guidance of what became a systematized racist political structure.

The policies he made were around his personal racial prejudices as he’s the one and only who created the bureaucratic system of the village (something many of his stans gloat about) that, in itself, makes him racist. Those that state that he was just "prejudiced" conveniently leave aside the segregationist structure he built around his mindset. As someone in a position of power who, as was canonically shown and stated (by Hashirama, Orochimaru, and himself), didn't even bother to check his own prejudices, he's to be held accountable over the simple fact that he was the Hokage in charge of guaranteeing the safety, equity, and equality of those under his command.

Yet, while fear given his prior experiences is a fair claim as the basis for Tobirama’s bias, it’s also factual for the rest, as Madara (and other Uchiha) also lost relatives at Senju’s hands –in fact, Tobirama is likely more powerful than most Sharingan wielders as he killed Izuna, the second in command. Yet unlike Tobirama, neither Madara nor anyone of his kin performed undisclosed autopsies of deceased Senju members in order to study their biology nor wrote discriminatory and limiting policies based upon their nature. Madara even deflected after learning about his clan’s future inside Konoha’s borders.

[I’ll also brush over the fact that Tobirama’s words about how Madara is viewed negatively by other clan heads, while Hashirama isn’t, it’s never canonically shown –which only let us with his word,  which we immediately took as factual.]

What I will comment on more deeply tho, is the notion of fear and its influence on racist mentalities and behaviors, as many believe that Tobirama’s fear of the Uchiha has nothing to do with his discriminatory mindset, as if “fear for what an ethnicity might do and therefore acting by repressing them in advance” it’s somehow different than racism, that implies a “racial [ethnic, as the term racism is far outdated as there’s only one race that exists with multiple ethnicities] prejudice that guides the individual to perform discriminatory and repressive acts.”

Extreme hatred is almost always based on fear. People may feel threatened by people they view as "different" or "foreign." They may fear losing power. To combat this fear, some people may seek social support from others with similar fears, perpetuating the cycle.

Source

Attitudes of extreme hatred are usually based on fear. They come from primitive survival mechanisms—our instinct to avoid danger—to fear anything that appears to be different, which leads to fear of the other.

“When one race of persons unconsciously feels fear in response to a different race group—fears that their own level of security, importance, or control is being threatened—they will develop these defensive thoughts and behaviors,” says psychologist and political advisor Dr. Reneé Carr. “They will create exaggerated and negative beliefs about the other race to justify their actions in [an] attempt to secure their own safety and survival.”

Source

Irrational fear, particularly of people of color, has shaped the American criminal justice system since the nation's colonial beginnings (...) Many of the propagators of this apartheid trafficked in racist fear-mongering to justify discriminatory treatment of African Americans, warning white America about the inherent criminality and violent propensities of black men.

Source

Fear and Racism are deeply intertwined, such as is Hate and Racism (there’s a reason why xenophobia, which is the fear of strangers or foreigners, it’s often used as a synonym for racism) –Tobirama claimed that the Uchiha were a “clan possessed by evil” (x), despite his studies only confirming that emotions were the primary force behind their chakra activating the Sharingan. At no point did he prove that negative emotions were the sole requirement for their kekkei genkai to activate nor was he able to prove that their feelings commanded their actions as he performed autopsies over (hopefully) dead bodies that clearly had no way to feel a single thing and act upon it; in fact, he wrote the book of shinobi’s rules that forbid people (even non-Uchiha) from showing emotions -yet Hiruzen, the student he trusted the most with his will, as he bestowed upon him the Hokage title, happily exploited such connections amongst his forces. 

Tobirama’s need for control pushed him to create Edo-Tensei (a jutsu that came back to bite him in the ass, but regardless), he controlled powerful deceased shinobi at the expense of other people’s lives –you can say that Tobirama’s primarily driven force was fear yet it easily evolved into a clear necessity of absolute control over both living and dead people as to perform what he thought was righteous. In that sense, his characterization is marvelous, as he’s not above cruelty to perform what he claims is “the greater good”, in fact limiting his vicious tendencies is reducing both his depth as a character inside the story and the complexity and duality of the system he created under such perspective –neither he nor Hashirama were above ruthless acts to carry out their wishes.

To state that he wasn’t racist but rather, a person that acted upon his fear by creating and carrying out segregation policies based upon biology (re-read that phrase again and tell me how that isn’t racism, please) it’s limiting the existence of racism to mere “hatred” sentiments that rest upon the notion of one ethnicity’s superiority (morally, physically or both), which, pardon me, is absolutely nonsensical and paradoxical, as Tobirama was well aware of the Sharingan’s supremacy (in that case, the explanation of his racism would be solely based upon the anger awaken by sentiments of jealousy, yet canonically he never displayed such propensity as even having access to Uchiha corpses he never implanted himself a Sharingan).

[Many POC (particularly males) have to, to this day, fight against racist pre-conceptions that paint them as violent, savage, and blood-lusted individuals, created to install fear amongst the “pure” white citizens in order to push them to seek “government protection against the savages” which, in turn, happily and easily installed discriminatory policies against such communities.]

If you wish, you can say Tobirama’s fear was “rational” as he does have a background of conflict with the Uchiha, yet then you can’t blame the Uchiha for distrusting Tobirama and his successors’ policies as they also possess the same history –yet while Tobirama is, somehow, justified in his apprehension for the Uchiha, that courtesy isn’t extended to that family, who should have trusted blindly Konoha’s system, a bureaucracy which basis are built upon Tobirama’s ethnic prejudice.

And it's even by their own laid-out premises that these advocates fail to specify what exactly ARE Tobirama’s segregationist policies: They were targeted to a single clan and a single clan alone, what is that if not ethnic prejudice? They keep saying is not racism yet fail to convey what it is as if “fear” is enough response when speaking of an individual that built Konoha's entire political structure.

Furthermore, many claim that Tobirama couldn’t be racist as he allowed one Uchiha (Kagami) inside his cell, and both Itachi and Shisui were advocates for Konoha’s government yet:

This denial of the significance of race is a tool that allows the dominant racial group to legitimize the effects of racism under the guise of individual merit. Through this lens, people in positions of power can credit their successes to their own hard work while positioning the disadvantages oppressed racial groups face to personal rather than systemic failures.

The praising and/or awarding of one or few individuals inside a group that suffers from systematic prejudice is not proof of such a community not suffering from such segregation policies, rather, it’s a way to disguise such oppression while selling the idea that individual merit it’s both what matters, and the thing that’s stopping most members of such a family from rising inside Konoha’s political’s sphere. That way the blame is placed upon individual actions rather than the systematic flaws of Konoha’s policies (and the same happens with other characters, such as Naruto, Neji, Kakashi, and so on –as their traumatic experiences and subsequent reactions are blamed upon their individual perspective and not on the bureaucratic structure that is both the cause of the specific events that shaped them and the reason why they don’t have a better support system after such occurrences).

At the same time, Madara was the main motive of Tobirama’s “terror” for the Uchiha yet, after Madara’s death, he continued with his discriminatory policies towards those who shared the same ethnicity as the former leader, despite them willingly turning their back on him when he tried to make them abandon Konoha, pledging their loyalty to their village rather than to their strongest member and leader. Tobirama’s prejudice toward this specific ethnic group (as ethnicities in this manga are marked by the different Kekkei Genkai that exists), a consequence of his fear of a “new Madara rising” (whether it’s based on fear or hate doesn’t deny the fact that these notions were constructed with a racial prejudice still, making the system in itself and Tobirama specifically racist), converged in the systematic oppression that, later on, will push the Uchiha to attempt a coup and their subsequent massacre, a point that I touched upon a little more here. 

In short, denying Tobirama acted upon his fear for the Uchiha is reading his character flatly, I agree, however, maintaining that fear is not one of the main bases for the development of racist mentalities and policies is to simplify both the notion itself and to diminish the gravity of the segregationist practices that result from this perspective. 

[comikadraws]

how often is hashirama demonized or made out to be a villain while having his positive qualities ignored or even omitted compared to tobirama? it seems to be that tobirama is more disliked and even demonized.

Definitely. Though I can also see why and, to a degree, agree with them.

Of course, there will always be exceptions (for example, I have a mutual who harbors a burning hatred for Hashirama), but generally speaking, Hashirama often gets treated like an angel compared to Tobirama.

Hashirama is the one who founded the village and fans usually associate him with that perfect image Hashirama made up in his mind. Peace, stability, friendship.

But Tobirama is the one who actually structured the village and fans associate him with his failings. The brutality of the shinobi system, the wars waged by Konoha, the corruption in the village's government.

Both, I find, are actually fair assessments of their characters, though very one-sided. The nuances are missing.

What I believe people like to forget is that most of the village and its political relationships were built and structured by Tobirama during Hashirama's time in office. That means Hashirama oversaw the process and agreed to Tobirama's ideas.

As I explained in a different post, and as paradoxical as it may sound, Hashirama's initial goal to protect the lives of children became second to the wellbeing of the village. The village that was established for the purpose of protecting children. As Hashirama lost sight of his original goal, children were sacrificed and ended up protecting the village and not the other way around.

Madara says that Hashirama mistook the cause for the end or put the cart before the horse, depending on the translation. Hashirama, looking back at his village's history, openly admits that these were circumstances he had considered acceptable in the grand scheme of things. A mistake, as we all know.

To make matters worse, Tobirama also gets the bigot treatment from the fandom. Or rather, the fandom has identified him as what they perceive to be a racist. I have further talked about the whole issue in this post, but long story short, Tobirama makes a good training dummy for that sort of discussion but within a fandom context - even if it distorts Kishimoto's initial vision, as I have explained in this post.

What is strangely interesting is that Hashirama seemingly agrees with Tobirama's theories (about the nature of the Uchiha Clan) yet doesn't get the same amount of hate that Tobirama does for this prejudice. I have previously explained this detail in this post. The fandom's perception seems to be influenced a lot by Tobirama's and Hashirama's respective personalities and their resulting actions rather than beliefs.

And Hashirama genuinely does have more (or at least more striking) positive traits than Tobirama. He is more likable. Meanwhile Tobirama's personality, in the databooks, is described as "bold, zealous, rational, principled", whereas Hashirama's traits are listed as "warm, considerate, carefree and easy-going". Particularly Tobirama's brutal honesty and rationality are unpopular character traits.

I also somewhat implied this above, but I also believe the fandom tends to simplify and reduce the Hokage a lot to their most striking character traits or their most striking accomplishments/failings (which are not even necessarily connected to their time as Hokage).

You can see that reflected in polls. This one was made by @/narutopolls.

Hiruzen "wins" by a ridiculous percentage because he is the Hokage whose failings we have been confronted the most with during the series. His leniency on Danzo and Orochimaru, the Third Great Shinobi War that was waged during his reign, Naruto's neglect and ostracization, the mishandled Hyuga Affair, the Uchiha Genocide, and so on and so forth.

The problem is just that we don't really know that much about the other Hokage and their respective legacies aside from Tsunade maybe. Most of the decisions we see from her are in relation to Naruto, but even then she does do things for the village like founding medical law or strengthening relations with Suna. But also, her reign was not as morally complex as other Hokages' and she had the power of hindsight on her side, thanks to Danzo already having proven his untrustworthiness during Hiruzen's reign. The decisions she made are not exactly decisions other Hokage wouldn't have made in that specific scenario (Hiruzen also tried to prevent wars if we look at the Hyuga Affair and wasn't opposed to medical law, even if he didn't act on it). But we honestly don't know what Tsunade would've done in their shoes. Still, she just so happens to be a very positive, likable character with no obvious political disasters. She had less screw-ups, sure, but also she reigned during a less morally challenging time. Is she a positive figure? Yes! Would she still be if the circumstances were harder? No idea!

In regards to Minato and Kakashi, we barely even know what they did in office. Could be anything, really, but they have likable personalities and cool fights, so they are better regarded than the others and we assume that they must have excelled as much as political leaders as they have excelled in our hearts.

Naruto we also barely know anything about. You could give him shit for not abolishing the use of child soldiers, but neither did any Hokage before him. Or you might dislike him for stopping Sasuke's revolution, but he did that before his time as Hokage. So why did Naruto get voted third worst Hokage? I'd daresay it's because people were able to watch his failings on screen and that soured his character for them.

All of this is just to prove that (with the exception of Hiruzen) people seem to base their perception of a character's competence on their affinity toward that character.

And now, apply all this to Tobirama and Hashirama. We barely have any particular failings to directly connect to Hashirama. We just know about his founding of the village, his mercy and empathy for the Uchiha, and his positive personality. But that's because we never saw him actually fulfilling his Hokage duties to begin with. Additionally, while in office, he had the support of his more rational and cunning brother to prevent political disaster. He was never given the opportunity to disappoint us.

In the case of Tobirama, he gets credited specifically for the village's (poor) planning, he openly expresses prejudice toward the Uchiha (who are fan favorites), and has an unlikable personality. In the case of Tobirama too, we never got to see him in the position of Hokage and only ever witnessed the aftermath. Unlike Hashirama, for all we know, Tobirama did not receive any particular assistance to balance out his negative personality traits. He was never given the opportunity to win us over.

This creates a sharp contrast between the two. It elevates one brother's failings and facilitates choosing a "worse" brother to turn into a scapegoat for the other. And while, yes, certain things apply to both Hashirama and Tobirama (their willingness to train and use child soldiers, or their shared belief in the Uchiha's innate predisposition to strong love and hatred), we can also say that one of them actively caused those circumstances while the other mostly just condoned or supported them. They are both responsible, just to different degrees.

The only thing I really disagree with is that many fans completely absolve Hashirama of all blame or fail to even notice his faults to begin with.

[mdr-reikas]

Feel like this needs to be said more often

[plumsaffron]

appears this person lurks tumblr. Good.

[lira456]

Naruto failure of hokage in every front like his ancestors

Many things needed fair conclusions which were overlooked so what naruto did what kind of reform he enforced regarding clan laws and treatments because of uchiha tragedy, regarding reformation of child soldiers and anbu matters becuase of rin and itachi, regarding reforming continental laws and regulation if invasion of small coutries and villages happening and their rebuilding and reparation because of wrongdoings 5 NATIONS AND KAGE have caused in the past,

also how he gonna bind all shinobi villages and even countries in the mutual trust and common ground so that nothing unlawful conclusion happen like that of shikimaru shinden and who gonna maintain or correct it in future that's why you need solid effective laws that equally and equitably benefit and treat and question everyone( author only just blink of some years bring phone,computer and video games but still maintains feudal sytem does not have international laws we have under UN so that no one can easily go to war even israelis are condemned against by UN but in naruto we don't have any such organization,laws,platform for time to time problem which can connect all shinobi countries and villages on the continent, even villages can not oppose their daimyo's order meaning they have no alternative source of income so naruto did not find another way for complete econmical survival without shinobi missions on 80 percent level such as using chakra and exporting chakra tech not for warfare especially and chakra natures lol feels like he still wants to maintain system in 60 percent ground: pure bad writing to continue boruto),

also what about orphanage system for other villages especially orphan from small villages or destructive land or from remote area like that of ryogi and kabuto and kara children and ame child how did not naruto send no shadow clone or shinobi for such purpose as he always preach about how he understand everyone's pain so called messiah or any welfare like system for poor shinobi from impoverished village shinobi or even his own village especially their widows and orphans did not shown or pension like something for shinobi especially who lost their body parts such as guy or some especial payment for shinobi like kawaki's father and give him alternative employment becuase of being war hero could have saved kawaki feels like villages abandoned many remaining shinobi or why not give them alternative employment because of their past service (just simply dispose of them if they lost value so cruel, just how pain said), by checking all the shinobi they could have but becuase they don't have correct and effective database like system even without tech that's how inaffective their shinobi system is because it's only focus on deciphering stupid message that would do no good for average shinobi and their family, collect tax from people building hiring,build some stupid building, maintain shinobi academy and its doctrination and missions and ranks and secret non transparent scheme meaning they don't have any citizen or shinobi benefit only jonin and upper echelon have that luxury even nothing special fund for orphan that's why ryogi doest not send to kabuto nothing specific, only all connected to glrifying and worshipping their anscestor that's why they don't have effective database maintained because of that after the war they lost track many shinobi and who knows how their family survived not shown not even regarding the other villages saddening, also about their individual desire or dream for that can they stop being shinobi suddenly or leave the village, did not shown regarding such issues especially how they panicked when mitsuki left and send their kids to die really sad.

it seems they even don't have unique trade that could connect all in a way that not one can lie or go to war meaning kakashi did not create any trade system only how they can rebuild and maintain ninja system which was in threat because lack of manpower(losing most of the shinobi in the war) meaning focused mostly making buildings,transportation,long distant upgraded message device and sharing shinobi missions with other villages, so kakashi did not change any political,children curriculam,ideological and law related issues in the village, naruto not even focused on changing of dangerous social struture in kiri village and lack of resources problem in iwa country and village, even we did not see how sand village's lack of resouce problem and how they solved it under gaara, really half baked, so many things overlooked,

so even did not even focus on what law or regulation he would establish to maintain clan's inner environment and conflicts becuase hyuga slavery( ther are maybe no large clans left in konoha anymore because in boruto we never see any clan meeting like that of hyuga or many clan fighting together like sarutobi and akimichi only showed some yamanaka power but not said whether they are members of yamanaka or not that's likely most died in the war, ony maybe at bare minimum members around 20 to 30 and they maintain no more clan positive harmonious tradition like clan meeting and practice just stop the heritage as we are not shown, meaning some cultural genocide, naruto as hokage could have celebrated each clan's power as culture festival making it show in public like we see chinese,european cultures etc. in many carnival and festival, in this way he could have connected and create harmony and pleasure for these lost heritage clans because naruto was suppose to be a hope that connect people it seems he has forgotten his own theme in boruto cooperation through understanding and sharing pain lol he is not doing that kind of effort to maintain harmony,peace and love among village,clan and outsider instead he is busy in collecting more power and benefit from amado and eida and katasuke and even from kawaki, that's strategic why both kawaki and boruto remained in konoha and not in other village, so much for mutual trust lol.

This is why naruto as a hokage and MC is complete bulshite and loser especially kishimoto's false half baked writing surrounding lack of insight of political atmosphere felt so underserving and hypocritical because i felt so much ideological and behavioral difference between zabusa arc naruto and ending &boruto naruto, really dissapointing.

[lunyzare]

Hi there! I just wanted to tell you that your analysis of Izuna not accepting Hashirama's offer of 'peace' was really good and made so much more sense than some of the arguments I have seen in the fandom complaining about Izuna not placing his trust in the Senju even though he was completely justified in his suspicions. It was detailed and helped me a lot in understanding Izuna's choice back there and how this fandom forgets that Hashirama can only heal himself and not others.

If you don't mind can I ask to hear your thoughts on what would have happened if Tobirama and Izuna switched roles that day. Do you think Hashirama would have gone berserk at losing his last brother? How do you headcanon his reaction to be?

Hi there! First of all, This ask has been sitting in my drafts for way too long, my apologies. I hope my answer will at least a little bit satisfying for you, anon.

Thank you so much for your kind words, I am so glad you liked my analysis!

I agree with you, Izuna was justified in his mistrust. I think that Hashirama being able to heal others is nothing but a headcanon that for some reason is – by some people – accepted as canon, even though it's not.

Now, I'll try my best to answer your question, but before I do that, I have to say this post is sligthly critical of Hashirama's character (although I am analysing canon here), so be warned.

Do you think Hashirama would have gone berserk at losing his last brother?

I'll start with this question if you don't mind, because I feel like answering this question is crucial in order to answer the rest.

Short answer: No, I don't think he would have gone berserk. It would certainly hurt him a lot (he did want to protect his siblings like Madara, at least as child), but I personally don't think he would have gone berserk.

Long answer:

We saw Hashirama reacting to two of his brothers dying (Itama and Kawarama) and I wouldn't say Hashirama went berserk in either case. He cried and he mourned their loss, of course, but in both cases, his reaction was still relatively calm (look at Madara's reaction, when Hashirama tells him he lost Itama, Madara looks perplexed, shocked, perhaps sad and emphatetic, but other than that his reaction is very calm as well).

Shinobis are thought to hide all their emotions on the battlefield. Look again at Madara's reaction, this time to losing Izuna – given the fact his last brother was literally bleeding out in his arms, he still relatively managed to remain his calm and focused nature. The only sign of distress and/or lack of calm and focus could be the fact he left the battlefield while the members of his clan were still there.

Now, this was when Hashirama was still a child. Let's look at him as an adult:

Hashirama as an adult was given two options by Madara (although he still had the third option of actually killing Madara). And he chose to sacrifice himself. This means he valued Tobirama's and Madara's life (but also his dream) and chose to – instead of them – sacrifice himself. What's interesting about that scene though, is that Tobirama seemed unsure what will be Hashirama's choice. Tobirama had no problem telling Hashirama to "shut up", but here he's asking him what Hashirama will do? I find that a bit strange. Did Tobirama in some way believe Hashirama might actually sacrifice him there? I do not know the answer, it would be more of a guess, but given the fact that later on Hashirama sweared he would dispose anyone for the sake of the village, I wouldn't be surprised if Tobirama in some way...actually wasn't sure Hashirama wouldn't sacrifice him.

So, let's summrize my points so far: Hashirama grew in a times where shinobi weren't allowed to mourn, were thought to hide their emotions and at the end oh his journey, he was willing to sacrifice anyone who dared to oppose Konoha. All of these lead me to believe that while losing Tobirama would definitely hurt him (it probably hurt him to lose Madara too), he wouldn't have gone berserk.

Now, do I think Hashirama would still want to create the village? Yes, I kind of do – he still wanted to create the village after both Kawarama and Itama dying, Madara was the one who chose Izuna and his clan over their "pipe" dream, so I honestly think that losing Tobirama, while it would be horrible, wouldn't sway Hashirama from his dream.

In the end, the village, the dream was what Hashirama valued/wanted the most over anything (even his own life).

The thing is: I have a feeling that if Izuna didn't die, the village would never be created, because I don't think Madara would go against Izuna's wishes – as we've seen he clearly respected Izuna and tried to fullfill the promise he gave him.

My apologies, anon, if you've expected a more detailed headcanon on how things would go, but I fear I am not very good at pinpoiting how exactly the story would unfold.

[naruto-general-opinions]

[the-real-sasuke-uchiha]

The Uchiha don't love too hard, they love normaly. But of course, if your love standards are "I would kill my child for the state" or "I will make a nuke of my wife", for sure you will be astonished when finding the slightest form of true love.