#anti Hashirama

[the-real-sasuke-uchiha]

He looks like he's the main villain of the story because he is the main villain of the story.

Hashirama's new chinese mobile game intro is so evil it looks like he's the main villain of the story🙄

at least Madara looks fine.

[the-real-sasuke-uchiha]

The Uchiha don't love too hard, they love normaly. But of course, if your love standards are "I would kill my child for the state" or "I will make a nuke of my wife", for sure you will be astonished when finding the slightest form of true love.

[sannin-three]

Really though, Tsunade betraying and helping to destroy Konoha would have been so poetic especially if you take Hashirama into account. He built up this village that was ultimately filled with bone deep flaws that couldn't be repaired, and his own granddaughter is instrumental in destroying it. She takes the will of fire and burns things to the ground

[plumsaffron]

appears this person lurks tumblr. Good.

[leportraitducadavre]

My interpretation of Itachi's character is fairly contrasting with yours. I pose my arguments against your analysis. I hope I would get a lead unto having an unbiased opinion.

Itachi's position in here between was a rock and a hard place. Having witnessed horrors of wars he chose to the stop war. It wasn't the best decision but even still he accomplished many things.

A new Forth Great Ninja war was prevented. Uchihas plan wasn't to reform the government it was to take control of them. Their desires were clearly reflected in their demands. While half of them was about freedom, the rest was only to control village. This, along with Obito's plan for revenge and war, will definitely start a war.

Madara, with the pact, was foiled for more than seven years long enough for the strong Shinobis like Naruto and Sasuke to grow up and defeat him.

Sasuke's life was saved. Itachi would go at all lengths to protect his brother. Afterall, its only obvious he would be over-protective of Sasuke since both loved each other a lot(as siblings).

The Uchiha's reputation were saved. Imagine what would have happened to the Uchihas after the war. The people were already suspicious of the Uchihas and now we will have never ending persecution and would be branded as traitors, doesn't matter if the coup won or lost. The coup wasn't about reforming anyway.

People in the village got to be safe too.

And despite all these he still regretted a lot enough that he wanted the person he adored the most to kill him. Also, no one here is trying to justify his action. A justification and a reason has a clear distinction. Just because there was a reason it doesn't make the acts were justified. He himself acknowledged that. The writer didn't try to justify nor did Itachi himself. People like, Hashirama and Naruto, appreciated the role he played and praised him as a Shinobi.(being seen as a villan while protecting the people isn't easy, btw). They weren't justifying or glorifying his actions in any instance.

He wasn't an absolute nationalist. He he was an idealist. His motivations most cases(especially while making big decisions)were to 'not beget war' and 'maintain peace'. Doesn't matter if Uchihas managed to control the village it still starts war, death, destruction and countless losses which is exactly what Itachi hated from when he was 4. He also wanted to reform the village by becoming a Hokage. He wanted to wiped out the entire ninja system since ninjas were the ones who were used as a weapon for the Diamoyo start constant wars. The Leaf was sort of obnoxious in the time of Tobirama and Hiruzen's regime. But even still, the Hokages were good and passionate and also the people were innocent.

A new Forth Great Ninja war was prevented. Uchihas plan wasn't to reform the government it was to take control of them. Their desires were clearly reflected in their demands. While half of them was about freedom, the rest was only to control village. This, along with Obito's plan for revenge and war, will definitely start a war.

How do you even know it was prevented? Shisui stating that hidden villages will take advantage of Konoha’s civil war to invade was just a fear that was actually constantly proven wrong throughout the series; when Suna invaded and Konoha was destroyed (forcing it to send their most powerful shinobi out of the village to collect money) no other village took advantage of the situation, not even Kumo or Iwa, two of the big five that were not struggling politically or militarily as Suna, Kiri and Konoha were. Kumogakure even tried to kidnap Hinata while in the middle of signing a peace treaty, yet they did nothing against the Hyüga clan nor the village during one of their most vulnerable state.

Furthermore, you mean to tell me that a civil war (I am using that notion generously because Konoha is a military state with a non-civilian population, specifically trained for combat) destabilizes the military and economic power of a city, yet the complete disappearance overnight of one of the village's founding and most powerful clans does nothing to its structure? Other villages wouldn’t see the absence of Sharingan-wielders as an enticing opportunity to strike? Do you mean to tell me that a village was left without police to control it overnight (and their job is considered super important by detractors), yet the city did not succumb to chaos?

Their desires were clearly reflected in their demands.

What were their demands? Enlighten me.

While half of them was about freedom, the rest was only to control village.

Where do you get this information from? There’s nothing of the sort stated in the manga.

This, along with Obito's plan for revenge and war, will definitely start a war.

Obito’s plan needed the annihilation of the Sharingan-wielders as he didn’t want anyone capable of obtaining the Mangekyou to jeopardize his plan to control the ten-tails, Itachi killing the Uchiha literally allowed Obito to start the war!! 

Madara, with the pact, was foiled for more than seven years long enough for the strong Shinobis like Naruto and Sasuke to grow up and defeat him.

… what? This doesn’t make any sense and has nothing to do with Itachi… you mean to tell me that Itachi killing his clan made Sasuke as powerful as he is? Because Sasuke has always been powerful and has always been Indra’s transmigrant, and as I’ve said, Obito wouldn’t have been able to initiate the war (or at least would’ve been incredibly difficult for him) with the Uchiha clan still alive!

Sasuke's life was saved. Itachi would go at all lengths to protect his brother. Afterall, its only obvious he would be over-protective of Sasuke since both loved each other a lot(as siblings).

An eight-year-old was tortured mentally by his brother through Tsukuyomi by watching his clan and parents get killed over and over again, was left to live alone in a compound destroyed by his brother’s actions, having to clean his parents’ own blood and fend for himself –but at least he’s alive… the circumstances and solitude in which he grew is abysmal, traumatic, negligent and inhumane, but we don’t care as much about children’s safety as we do children being just alive.

There were other children in that compound, children that knew nothing of and participated not in the coup to which Itachi didn’t extend the same kindness he did his brother.

The Uchiha's reputation were saved. Imagine what would have happened to the Uchihas after the war. The people were already suspicious of the Uchihas and now we will have never ending persecution and would be branded as traitors, doesn't matter if the coup won or lost. The coup wasn't about reforming anyway.

What “reputation”? The Uchiha were always constructed under a negative light within Tobirama’s system, you lot keep saying they were saved from being seen as detractors when there’s not a single panel that states they were planning to change the system as a whole (rather take down the current government, which is not the same).

Furthermore, to think that they cared about the rest of the population's mindset regarding them is so incredibly simplistic I have to laugh at it –they’re the strongest clan in the village, without Uchiha, there’d have been no village in the first place, and they were already aware of the unfavorable perspective in which they were regarded by others, nothing in itself would’ve changed.

The Uchiha being seen as loyal to the village helped no one but the current system as it is, as they’re seen as a government without opposition, it wasn’t about maintaining the Uchiha’s honor, but keeping the fragile credit of the structure and those in power -if Uchiha died in their own terms, then other clans will know about the clan’s discomfort with the current mindset, and those that feel uncomfortable with it might find a group that validates such sentiments:

Kakashi admits to being uncomfortable with the way he's viewed by the system, he even uses plural when referring to ninja ("we ninja") -meaning there's a communal uneasiness with the whole situation.

The fact that the government silenced detractors (Uchiha) by killing them will only deepen further the general shinobi population's discomfort, which is why is imperative to silence the truth.

[On another note, why do you keep using "honor" as an excuse to execute an entire compound of people? The entire clan was decimated and the whole "honor" of the family rested as another responsibility Sasuke had to endure all by himself thanks to "Itachi's love" -they were left with no honor as Sasuke was forced to restore it! Furthermore, they're all dead! What is "honor" gonna do for them? For the massacred innocents at least? They did nothing wrong and were killed regardless, their honorable nature wasn't even being questioned!]

People in the village got to be safe too.

Safe of what? When was it stated they were going to fight against those who weren’t in power? The problem is they rebelling against those they deem their oppressors but not the government refusing to renounce their power in order to keep the “population they hold so dear” safe? They are both willing to kill innocents (so I guess some people in the village weren’t safe, but in your book, they don’t matter as much), and use the rest of the military population to strike against Uchiha (which is also, never actually stated!). The idea of a “within war” was never confirmed as the Uchiha had no chance to strike, no one is to say they weren’t trying to take power through force yet quietly, no one is to know what was their actual plan as that was never brought to light!

The Uchiha are wrong for wanting to take the power but the government isn't wrong for wanting to keep it, the Uchiha are wrong for their methods to seek authority but not the government for defending the status quo. Uchiha having power would mean annihilation, somehow, despite them being against just their oppressors, not Konoha as a whole; while the government seeks to protect the village despite massacring an entire and most important portion of their militia and one of the founders' clans.

And despite all these he still regretted a lot enough that he wanted the person he adored the most to kill him. 

He regretted nothing, he wanted Sasuke to kill him in order to both give him an objective and to distract him from finding out Konoha’s involvement in the Uchiha Massacre, shouldering the entire responsibility of their demisse.

Also, no one here is trying to justify his action. 

But you are, you wrote point after point why he had to kill his clan.

A justification and a reason has a clear distinction.

What distinction? You need to expand on the notions you think are relevant to you own argument. 

Just because there was a reason it doesn't make the acts were justified. He himself acknowledged that. The writer didn't try to justify nor did Itachi himself. People like, Hashirama and Naruto, appreciated the role he played and praised him as a Shinobi.(being seen as a villan while protecting the people isn't easy, btw). They weren't justifying or glorifying his actions in any instance.

What are you even writing? I’m being honest with that question, claiming to have a reason to kill his clan is used as a justification for his actions! I can’t believe I have to explain that to you. He never said he had no justification (their coup was treated as such over and over, everyone took advantage of them wanting to coup in order to both order the massacre and carry it out!!).

How on earth can you write “People like Hashirama and Naruto appreciated the role he played and praised him as a shinobi but they never justified him”, so are they praising him or not? Them positively reinforcing Itachi and praising him for “his sacrifice” (you see, not only he is perceived as a villain, he is a villain, he killed an entire kin -again, innocents included, in order to maintain specific people in power) is justifying his actions under the notion of the “greater good for the village”. 

He wasn't an absolute nationalist.

He did everything for Konoha! He even claimed himself to be “Itachi of the Leaf!” What are you even talking about?

He he was an idealist. His motivations most cases(especially while making big decisions)were to 'not beget war' and 'maintain peace'. 

Yet his actions concluded in Obito being able to control the Ten Tails with almost no real opposition as the only other Sharingan-wielder was Sasuke.

Doesn't matter if Uchihas managed to control the village it still starts war, death, destruction and countless losses which is exactly what Itachi hated from when he was 4. 

How do you know? Do you have an entirely new manga written by Kishimoto about what would’ve happened had the Uchiha taken over the village? Itachi hated Uchiha since he was four because they brought “war, death and destruction” but not Konoha that actually provoked such wars, deaths, and destruction, what an intelligent boy! 

You have to be a troll because, man, “unbiased opinion” my ass. Also, did you just come to my blog with arguments coming from Itachi Shinden? The story not written by Kishimoto?

He also wanted to reform the village by becoming a Hokage. He wanted to wiped out the entire ninja system since ninjas were the ones who were used as a weapon for the Diamoyo start constant wars. 

Funny, under Hiruzen’s regime he would’ve never become Hokage, furthermore, when did he even hinted to want to become Hokage?? Never in the entire manga. Also, the Daimyo did little to nothing when it came to wars, those were all the Kage’s responsibilities! Dear Lord, did you at least read Team 10’s Arc? Asuma’s background literally explains how the Shugonin Jūnishi fought each other because six of them wanted the entire military power of the Land of Fire to be managed by the Daimyo alone while the rest, Asuma included, defended the Hokage’s existence. 

The Leaf was sort of obnoxious in the time of Tobirama and Hiruzen's regime. But even still, the Hokages were good and passionate and also the people were innocent.

Which people were innocent? The children and non-Sharingan wielders that knew nothing of the coup and were massacred regardless? How can you write “the Hokages were good” while they literally ordered the mass killing of people they swore to protect? How can you use “obnoxious” and “good” to describe the same two people?!

Gosh, the fact that you lot (Itachi stans) don’t comprehend that his involvement in the massacre of his own people alongside the protagonist’s endorsement of state-sanctioned genocide, makes the annihilation of an entire portion of a village a plausible option to handle internal disagreements is disastrous.

Committing genocide against the village’s own people sets a dangerous precedent where future governments can see and use such slaughter as a conceivable, even necessary, tool at their disposal whenever they feel threatened, making any clan vulnerable to the decisions of its government and guaranteeing the silence of possible detractors or even the censorship of constructive criticism of the political, military, economic and cultural system.

Jesus.

[theheirofthesharingan]

Hashirama was a jerk when he told Sasuke that Madara loved his brother more than Itachi. Who was he to talk about Itachi and how he loved. What did he know. Who named him the master of the lovemeter. That and praising Itachi for killing his clan saying he was a better shinobi than him. As if Itachi did that to earn merits as a shinobi, as if he hadn't been coerced to do it. As if he was Konoha's hero instead of its victim. I hate Hashirama so much.

I won't call him a jerk because he didn't know anything about Itachi. He didn't meet Itachi to draw this conclusion. He didn't hear much from Sasuke about Itachi. He only heard some things from Hiruzen, and the way Hiruzen describes him, he makes the image of a perfect Shinobi, not a child who was used and manipulated by the system. So, Hashirama praised the Shinobi that stopped the war rather than sympathise with a broken child.

As a person, though, no, he didn't care about Itachi at all. Otherwise he wouldn't make the remarks like he did.

I don't even care if Madara loved Izuna more or not. Izuna is an irrelevant character in the story, unlike Sasuke and Itachi both. Izuna is important to Madara, but not the narrative. People who think otherwise just have a hate-boner for Itachi and want to dismiss everything he did and represented, for which they don't mind contradicting the words written by Koshimoto himself.

Hashirama just had a view of a Shinobi, because of his own experience in war. But I'd still like him to remember that the lives of Itachi and Sasuke were shaped by his own failed policies, Tobirama and Madara going "my pain is greater than everyone else's" where Itachi just kept it all inside.

Truthfully, Itachi is not only the greater Shinobi than Hashirama (I'm not even debating against that), he's a far better person than either Hashirama or Madara or Tobirama could ever dream to be.

If he had half the authority and freedom of the other three (either as the Hokage or the clan head) he would have made much better decisions. But we're not going into that.

[madaras-tits]

100% agreed on the whole way naruto shippers clearly do not actually care about or like madara and sasuke. for example fucking sasusaku shippers clearly do not notice or care about how sasuke is miserable fighting for some village that ruined his life and that no one knows the truth about the uchiha massacre they just see him as some strong skinny twink bishie boi who is only nice to their precious self insert sakura they see him as a thing for sakura. don't even get me started on fucking tobirama x madara or the toxic tobirama stans in general, i have seen horrific shit of madara being violently raped by tobirama on ao3 as a punishment of his crime for "being an uchiha who hasn't been humbled". the sad thing is that i have seen crossover romance shipping fanfic that actually respects both madara and sasuke as characters (making sure they ain't OOC or stripped of their nuance/personality) and they have more chemistry with characters from different anime/manga series. both madara and sasuke deserve better from this damn fandom than just being hashirama and naruto's cute little waifus who constantly get kidnapped like Princess Peach and get pregnant with uchiha babies like a fucking Uchiha baby factory.

So real!!! I think one of the reasons why this happens sometimes is because a lot of naruto fans/shippers are very pro konoha, so anything that Madara or Sasuke do is instantly a crime against humanity to them, so in order to make their ship work they have to take their morals and issues away from Madara and Sasuke, so they "aren't evil" anymore.

Also, that last part about t*birama/madara is so true. I mean, aside the fact that Madara would never be able to forgive him for killing Izuna, Tobirama also just had zero respect for him as a person. Tobirama felt no empathy for the Uchiha, and to pretend that he would set that aside for Madara is just insane to me. It's fine as a crack ship or if you write it to be intentionally toxic (which can be fun sometimes), but just taking away all the nuance these two characters have to make them fuck??? why?? Like, with hsmd I atleast understand where people are coming from, childhood friends trope and all, but what is the appeal of tobimada? No one who actually likes Madara would be able to ship tobimada, and no one who actually likes Sasuke would be able to ship sasusaku.

Madara and Sasuke definitely deserved sooo much better, they deserved loving people who actually respected them and their dreams (and no hsrm did not respect mdr's dreams while he was still in the village let's not play pretend).

[lira456]

Rwandan Genocide parallels to Uchiha clan genocide

Hutu led country government discrimination towards minority Tutsi ethnic group of people

Senju led Konoha discrimination towards minority Uchiha clan

[naruto-general-opinions]

[the-real-sasuke-uchiha]

There are no good hokages. Not a single one. Hashirama enabled his racist brother knowingly, and let him perform his deranged jutsu experiments. Hiruzen was a fully aware accomplice of a genocide instigator and let him roam free with no punishment. Minato did nothing against the oppression of the Uchiha and made a nuke out of a baby. Tsunade turned her head away from Danzo's conspiracies, it was under her rule that Danzo aimed at Sasuke's life when he was doing nothing against Konoha. Kakashi and Naruto swept a genocide under the rug and had genocide instigators working for them.

There isn't a single good one. All of them are criminals. All of them are guilty.

[kcuf-ad]

Hashirama is the dumbest Hokage because he listened to his racist ass Brother and not the person that he help create the village.

[the-real-sasuke-uchiha]

It is funny when people misinterpret this scene. As if Madara was being irrational by asking Hashirama to make an absurd, impossible choice. What Madara was implying here was nothing but the truth, that a friend, however close and regardless of how similar your political ideas are, is not the same as a brother. And Hashirama calling himself Madara's brother was fairly offensive, when he knew how deep and unconditional his love for Izuna was. And more so when he was unilaterally governing the village he and Madara founded under the influence of Izuna's killer and a declared hater of Madara's family. Friends are not family. And no, losing a friend (or a sexual harasser lame sensei) is not the same as losing family. The pain can't compare and apparently Hashirama could not begin to understand (although he should, since he lost his siblings to war too). And since he was acting like a dumbass, thinking that he could ease Madara's desperate concerns for his family with stupid nonsense like "the village is your family" or "I am your brother", Madara had to put it in simple words. I am not your brother, if you had to kill me for the village you would do so in a heartbeat. And you would never sacrifice your brother, whatever shit you say. And it proved true, obviously. Hashirama killed Madara with little doubt when he proved a threat to their failed excuse of a village. But he was not even able to sacrifice the Hokage's position of his brother to ensure peace and make sure the treaty signed between the clans would stand.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. Nice art and great blog.

Ship war inspired me.

[lira456]

Naruto failure of hokage in every front like his ancestors

Many things needed fair conclusions which were overlooked so what naruto did what kind of reform he enforced regarding clan laws and treatments because of uchiha tragedy, regarding reformation of child soldiers and anbu matters becuase of rin and itachi, regarding reforming continental laws and regulation if invasion of small coutries and villages happening and their rebuilding and reparation because of wrongdoings 5 NATIONS AND KAGE have caused in the past,

also how he gonna bind all shinobi villages and even countries in the mutual trust and common ground so that nothing unlawful conclusion happen like that of shikimaru shinden and who gonna maintain or correct it in future that's why you need solid effective laws that equally and equitably benefit and treat and question everyone( author only just blink of some years bring phone,computer and video games but still maintains feudal sytem does not have international laws we have under UN so that no one can easily go to war even israelis are condemned against by UN but in naruto we don't have any such organization,laws,platform for time to time problem which can connect all shinobi countries and villages on the continent, even villages can not oppose their daimyo's order meaning they have no alternative source of income so naruto did not find another way for complete econmical survival without shinobi missions on 80 percent level such as using chakra and exporting chakra tech not for warfare especially and chakra natures lol feels like he still wants to maintain system in 60 percent ground: pure bad writing to continue boruto),

also what about orphanage system for other villages especially orphan from small villages or destructive land or from remote area like that of ryogi and kabuto and kara children and ame child how did not naruto send no shadow clone or shinobi for such purpose as he always preach about how he understand everyone's pain so called messiah or any welfare like system for poor shinobi from impoverished village shinobi or even his own village especially their widows and orphans did not shown or pension like something for shinobi especially who lost their body parts such as guy or some especial payment for shinobi like kawaki's father and give him alternative employment becuase of being war hero could have saved kawaki feels like villages abandoned many remaining shinobi or why not give them alternative employment because of their past service (just simply dispose of them if they lost value so cruel, just how pain said), by checking all the shinobi they could have but becuase they don't have correct and effective database like system even without tech that's how inaffective their shinobi system is because it's only focus on deciphering stupid message that would do no good for average shinobi and their family, collect tax from people building hiring,build some stupid building, maintain shinobi academy and its doctrination and missions and ranks and secret non transparent scheme meaning they don't have any citizen or shinobi benefit only jonin and upper echelon have that luxury even nothing special fund for orphan that's why ryogi doest not send to kabuto nothing specific, only all connected to glrifying and worshipping their anscestor that's why they don't have effective database maintained because of that after the war they lost track many shinobi and who knows how their family survived not shown not even regarding the other villages saddening, also about their individual desire or dream for that can they stop being shinobi suddenly or leave the village, did not shown regarding such issues especially how they panicked when mitsuki left and send their kids to die really sad.

it seems they even don't have unique trade that could connect all in a way that not one can lie or go to war meaning kakashi did not create any trade system only how they can rebuild and maintain ninja system which was in threat because lack of manpower(losing most of the shinobi in the war) meaning focused mostly making buildings,transportation,long distant upgraded message device and sharing shinobi missions with other villages, so kakashi did not change any political,children curriculam,ideological and law related issues in the village, naruto not even focused on changing of dangerous social struture in kiri village and lack of resources problem in iwa country and village, even we did not see how sand village's lack of resouce problem and how they solved it under gaara, really half baked, so many things overlooked,

so even did not even focus on what law or regulation he would establish to maintain clan's inner environment and conflicts becuase hyuga slavery( ther are maybe no large clans left in konoha anymore because in boruto we never see any clan meeting like that of hyuga or many clan fighting together like sarutobi and akimichi only showed some yamanaka power but not said whether they are members of yamanaka or not that's likely most died in the war, ony maybe at bare minimum members around 20 to 30 and they maintain no more clan positive harmonious tradition like clan meeting and practice just stop the heritage as we are not shown, meaning some cultural genocide, naruto as hokage could have celebrated each clan's power as culture festival making it show in public like we see chinese,european cultures etc. in many carnival and festival, in this way he could have connected and create harmony and pleasure for these lost heritage clans because naruto was suppose to be a hope that connect people it seems he has forgotten his own theme in boruto cooperation through understanding and sharing pain lol he is not doing that kind of effort to maintain harmony,peace and love among village,clan and outsider instead he is busy in collecting more power and benefit from amado and eida and katasuke and even from kawaki, that's strategic why both kawaki and boruto remained in konoha and not in other village, so much for mutual trust lol.

This is why naruto as a hokage and MC is complete bulshite and loser especially kishimoto's false half baked writing surrounding lack of insight of political atmosphere felt so underserving and hypocritical because i felt so much ideological and behavioral difference between zabusa arc naruto and ending &boruto naruto, really dissapointing.

[naruto-general-opinions]

[the-real-sasuke-uchiha]

I can't believe some guys accused the Uchiha of being too "self centred" and "unable to see beyond themselves" and then went and carved massive sculptures of their own faces on a mountain.

[please-read-the-manga]

Hm, been contemplating these panels lately and thinking about which character is constantly demonized within the fandom/fan works involving them and which is frequently viewed as the ultimate loving and moral person...

And:

One is a man bearing the supposed 'Curse of Hatred' who loves his children so much that he is continuing to parent and offer unconditional love to his son even after said son has already participated in the brutal state-sanctioned genocide of their people/culture and is about to end his (and his wife's - who, btw, is on the same page as him) life.

The other is a man from the supposed 'Clan of Love' who boldly holds the conviction that he would cease his compassion towards even his own child if they stood against him and his dream (the village), regardless of the fact his dream (the village) is a corruptible entity that does not maintain personhood.

Interestingly, I think there is something to be said for the fact both Fugaku and Hashirama are also shown struggling to understand Itachi and Madara (respectively).

Fugaku is actually quite honest regarding his issues in relating to Itachi and while we're not always privy to all the conversations they've had about the state of the clan/sentiment of the Leaf village towards their people, it's clear that those discussions have been had. While the panels where we do see more explicit conversations taking place show Fugaku reiterating to Itachi that his role in ANBU is to serve as a pipeline between the clan/village (which could be argued as an unfair burden foisted onto a child, in my opinion) there are also moments that indicate Fugaku is willing to defer to Itachi (at least on some topics) when his son offers a contradictory viewpoint (like attendance at Sasuke's entrance ceremony, for example).

Side note... this also reminds me of the very short (unfortunately) interactions we see between Madara and his father, Tajima. Tajima clearly respects his son as well and defers to him when Madara insists that they not fight Hashirama and his family on the river - Tajima accepts this from his son without pause.

Alternatively, we also see Madara trying to explain his perspective to a skeptical Hashirama before he commits to taking more drastic actions. Madara is trying to articulate his frustrations with what is happening in the village/how it is progressing with regards to his clan and (even though we never really get Madara's own unfiltered perspective on this time period) we are shown instances of Madara's grievances holding water (ie. Tobirama advocating for Madara not to be made Hokage, but instead pushing randomly for a democratic system that never seems to actually be cemented or made precedent within the village afterwards but absolutely benefits Hashirama/the Senju in the short-run, Madara 'overhearing' Tobirama's continued bias against the Uchiha in private conversations between the brothers, Hashirama continuing to scold his brother -someone who had ample power within the system of governance since its inception- for his bias against the clan even when they're brought back via the edo tensei, etc). Hashirama tries to (weakly, in my opinion) defend the village status quo/way it is progressing and seems to want to better understand Madara, but isn't willing or is unable to go that extra mile for his friend - and, perhaps in some ways, Madara too was unwilling/unable to articulate himself in a more digestible way once their divergence of opinion on their shared village came to this new crux.

Ultimately, I just find it interesting that Fugaku, this character who is often portrayed by fans as a demon of hatred and cruelty, would (in reality) stand by his son even in his darkest hour, even as he is unjustly slaughtering their family, and continue to reaffirm that he is proud of Itachi/loves him - and this is directly counter to Hashirama who asserts he would absolutely kill anyone (including a child) that stood between him protecting that which he loves the most (the village).

And, of course, we also have this to chew on lol...

Sasuke explaining to edo Hashirama that Itachi inherited his 'Will of Fire' jingoism.

Mandatory disclaimer that Fugaku is not infallible and all the characters here (but Fugaku and Hashirama in particular) are their own people/the circumstances do vary (especially as one relationship is framed in the context of father-son and the other as two friends/peers)... I should also note that I still enjoy Hashirama as a character, I just think his flaws are often under-examined and that the hypocrisy inherent to the 'Will of Fire' philosophy/the Leaf Village (and by extension the shinobi world) is equally neglected especially when it comes to this fandom's love of tearing down the Uchiha to their worst traits/moments. But, man, something about these two panels and character portrayals in particular have just been eating at me the past few days, so I figured I'd try to work out some thoughts on them.