#anti senju brothers

[kcuf-ad]

Hashirama is the dumbest Hokage because he listened to his racist ass Brother and not the person that he help create the village.

[angelsyrip]

konohagakure didn't deserve these precious boys

work by masashi kishimoto

song is die with a smile by lady gaga, bruno mars

[please-read-the-manga]

One thing I'll always find funny is Tobirama trying to make this random plea for the democratic process to keep Madara (and the Uchiha) out of power due to his own prejudiced fears.

And then doing an absolute 180 on all that when he's in power so he can self-select and field promote his own student (but of course not Kagami 'one of the good ones' Uchiha lol).

Where did all that talk about public discourse and democracy go, king? Think of the social contract, Tobirama! The separation of powers!

[evilkitten3]

ranking the hokage by how much i care about them

tsunade. obviously she's number one no explanation needed i love her she's wonderful. no questions no criticisms i love her. should have killed those two elders instead of just dropping them on the floor but i guess making them live with the shame of not being worth her time to kill is good enough. straight up deserted and was so cool they made her president anyway

hashirama!!!!! he's insane. i think he could have been worse frankly but nobody's perfect. worst divorce of all time. married to a woman he may not have even known existed bc he was too busy staring at his bestie's ass. enslaved and traumatized nine sentient chakra creatures for political purposes and never felt bad about it. causes problems just by having dna. would forgive him for everything instantly bc he's a cutie pie

hiruzen. absolute nightmare disaster shitshow of a man. old fuck who tried his best but his best was absolute horseshit, which just so happens to be one of my favorite kinds of characters. never made a decision he didn't regret. first person to get appointed president of the military police state by volunteering for a suicide mission in the middle of the woods. obsessed with him

kakashi! world's most saddest wet dog man. genius but also an absolute doofus. has the aura of a man who could wake up drunk in a dumpster without having imbibed a drop of alcohol. first konoha shinobi to (legally) get on an airplane. second konoha shinobi to get on an airplane at all. somehow married to the single greatest ninja of all time despite literally everything about gai being so far out of kakashi's league it's not even funny

tobirama. thought the whole "it's my jutsu!!!" thing was pretty funny. otherwise i couldn't care less. literally just some guy to me. no interest whatsover

the other one. kushina's boytoy. whatshisface. bad luck with rocks

[internal-ethics]

m8datobi stans complaining about m8datobi fics making tbrm ooc and wanting in-character tbrm in their shipfics is the funniest shit ever

[the-real-sasuke-uchiha]

Thoughts on Hashirama's past with trauma? Frankly I think it's an excuse that he didn't stand up against Tobirama because their father abused him. He was the Hokage.. Also I'm not sure who to ask this but you seem knowledgeable Sas so can you refresh my memory about what happened with Madara, Hashi, and Tobirama? It's been a while since I read the manga/watched the anime. If you have time/effort. Just a quick explanation is all I'm looking for. :)

Anyone who disagrees please don't get angry and attack, and take it up with me if you do.

Hi there! How are you?

Don't worry at all, people can keep scrolling or block a tag if they are unable to deal with a character being criticised. This will be anti Hashirama and anti Tobirama, of course. Those who know me even a tiny bit know that they are constantly receiving hate in this blog, so, no surprise.

If you don't mind, I will start by the end. Hashirama had proposed the hokage position to Madara, but Tobirama was against that and requested a democratic election. Immediately after, Tobirama also fed his racist bullshit to Hashirama, and Hashirama barely answered with one of his typical small scoldings. This was overheard by Madara, who obviously was not happy. Hashirama gets elected, and Madara realises that the Senju are hoarding the power in the village. This, together with the fact that Tobirama could not let go of his prejudice and hatred towards the Uchiha, makes him correctly foresee that the Uchiha face a fate of exclusion and doom in the village they co-founded. He tries to warn his clan, but nobody trusts him, so he leaves mortified because he was unable to protect his family once again. And later attacked the village and Hashirama killed him. More or less that, in summary.

Now, about Hashirama, I can totally understand that he was traumatized by his abusive father, by his siblings being killed, by a childhood of war and suffering, and by all you want. But I can't by any means justify his terrible job as a hokage with any of that. He had the responsibility to lead the village fairly and, if he was unable to do that, he should have passed the position to someone else. You can't take such a job willingly and then justify your very concious and obvious negligence on trauma or faked incompetence.

Tobirama likely had many reasons to hate the Uchiha, as the Uchiha had many reasons to hate the Senju. Nobody is asking Hashirama to get rid of his brother, but he should have found someone impartial as an advisor. He knew perfectly that his brother was racist, and still, he not only listened to him and let him influence state matters, he also appointed him as a successor. He let Tobirama desecrate Madara's body for his experiments, and he knowingly let him kill and experiment with people to develop the Edo Tensei. One can understand that he loved his brother unconditionally, as he was the only family he had left. But he had a duty as a leader to put limits to his brother's crimes and rampant bigotry. Or, if he was unable to stop him, at least keep him far from any position of power.

You know, if the Uchiha were to do something remotely similar to what Hashirama did, everyone would be questioning their loyalty, saying that they put their clan before the village, curse of hatred and whatever bullshit.

Another thing I can't stand of Hashirama is that he plays innocent and dumb. And I just can't believe this comedy. Because in his political actions he was never dumb. He was entertaining Madara with empty promises and nice words but, first chance he has, he leaves him out of the leadership of the village they both founded. Why didn't he, don't know, appoint Madara or any other Uchiha as his advisor instead of his biased brother? Collecting tailed beasts is also not the behaviour of a fool, he very much intended to hoard power to stablish Konoha's supremacy (and his own). He distributed the tailed beasts but was clever enough to keep the most powerful one to himself. And for a man who reached to power with the excuse of democracy, see how quick he forgot about it nominating someone from his family without taking anyone's opinion into consideration. Should I believe he established an oligarchy by accident because he was naïve, and that he didn't know what would happen once his racist brother got to power?

Anyway, sorry, this was probably too long. But I start hating on Hashirama and I get carried away...

Take care!

[justsomeoneunordinary]

hi May! i really love all the hashitobi fanart you've been reblogging recently! it made me fall in love with that pairing too :)

can i ask what your favourite headcanons for the two of them together are?

you know, this is REALLY not the kind of reaction i thought i'd get once the hashitobi posts come out of the queue 🤣 i mean, i have always been very clear about not tolerating any anti nonsense, but that hasn't stopped any antis from my inbox before. (although, if i STILL have any antis following me after everything, they're probably glad i accidentally shuffled my queue, otherwise all those hashitobi pieces would've come out one after another for a full day at least lol) therefore, your reaction is an absolute delight!!! you're a gem, thank you ♥️

that being said, i'm sorry to disappoint you, but i don't really have any headcanons for them 😅 i only got into them because i was running out of hashirama & tobirama fics to read and went, OKAY well *throws hands up* i GUESS, now i'll have to read incest if i want more of them!!! my interest for hashitobi is more out of necessity because there's not enough gen sibling stuff for them, and while romance changes the very dynamic i'm interested in for them, it's the only alternative i have

(although, i will admit that they're aesthetically a VERY pleasing pair, and i am absolutely an aesthetic shipper (folks who know me from my marvel days may remember me mentioning how i never ship two blond people together because they look the same to me - i still stand by that), and hashitobi not only look so widely different, but also have such very opposing personalities (AND abilities - one creates life, the other plays with death), which makes for a very crunchy dynamic. it's tasty.)

so no, no headcanons but i enjoy their dynamic similarly to how i enjoy my senju bros fics as well - extremely co-dependent (they're each other's last brother and they'd do everything for the other one and to ensure the other one survives) but now 10x more intense if you add romance and sex to it

tender as FUCK - they may be battle-hardened shinobi but they can treat each other no other way but with care and love. (which is funny coming from a dark enjoyer like me but idk, when it comes to these two, i just need them to be SOFT. probably because canon doesn't show them soft with each other so i need it in fanon damnit.) including lots of touching, especially from hashirama's side, while tobirama is more subtle - a litte squeeze of hashi's shoulder here, a little brush of hashi's hair there...

possessive and jealous and over-protective both of them!! hashi plants his mokuton seeds in tobirama to always be able to track him without telling him (not that he needs to; tobirama is a sensor) (it makes for a nice sliiightly dark but not all too dark hashi too), whereas tobirama tries to set everyone on fire with his look alone when someone even dares to look at hashirama for too long, especially one uchiha fucking madara. (let's be real: tobirama seemed already jealous of madara in canon - if you add romantic hashitobi to the mix, that's gonna be even stronger and worse)

i have no problem with adding mito to the mix!!! my gal marries one guy and by marrying him she gets another one as a bonus? my god, good for her, very good for her. she would take care of her boys so good 💖 (i definitely meant that in a dirty way). (on that note, i absolutely do NOT enjoy fics in which hashirama cheats on mito with tobirama (or literally anyone else for that matter), i love hashimito and just mito herself way too much. cheating hashirama does not spark joy. either she's never been part of the equation, to begin with, or she's an active part - there's no in-between for me)

honestly, i just want them soft and loving and caring with just a tad bit of unhinged behavior, and adding incest to the mix makes it simply more intense and spicier too 🤷‍♀️

[lifeaintnice100]

Reincarnation

I genuinely can never understand how people can ship Sasunaru and Hashimada like they are literally reincarnations of Indra and Ashura who are brothers meaning that Sasuke and Naruto are brothers who don't share the same blood but are still BROTHERS and the same goes for Hashirama and Madara. People see certain moments between these characters such as checking on how the other person is doing and caring for each other and start shipping them like no offense but people can care for each other even when they have a platonic relation and due to this reason they shit on other characters especially Hinata and Sakura.

#Naruto #Naruto Uzumaki #Sasuke Uchiha #Madara Uchiha #Hashirama Senju #Anti Sasunaru #Anti Hashimada #Sakura Uchiha #Hinata Uzumaki #Its my opinion #English ain't my first language

[maddmuses]

I think there’s definitely a side-arc in the post-time skip where Itachi and the Konohagakure council come to a head against each other. Or possibly during the time skip.

For one, I do think that Itachi’s use of anbu to retrieve Sasuke is looked upon unfavorably, and it’s a bad look for the recently-declared Hokage’s younger brother to abruptly go rogue and join with an enemy of the village. It was certainly a big point of argument for why he wasn’t a suitable leader once he left, and his continued use of the village’s resources would seem suspicious.

Combined with the continued anti-Uchiha sentiment among them (something that he sees in their hearts, even if their mouths and faces say otherwise, they were students of Tobirama Senju and clearly act more in his ideals than Hashirama’s, pragmatic and realistic) and their willingness to attempt to overrule him and undermine him as a “child and a novice” in the ways of being a politician and a shinobi, it was only natural that they eventually came to blows.

Regardless of when it happens, it becomes a time of great tension. Even if the pair are both Jonin, and on a level that was once similar to Hiruzen Sarutobi, the likes of Itachi has no issue taking out two who were never quite up to being Hokage themselves, even if he takes an injury or two in the process. It creates a period of political strife in the village as it’s uncertain if there’s an attempt to overthrow the village by the Uchiha with their Hokage helming it.

But the fact is that Itachi declares Kakashi Hatake, Tsunade Senju, and Jiraiya as his new council, all figures who are practical, and at least two tend to be in the village at a time, though Tsunade definitely acts as the main balancing force against him in many issues. This likely puts a lot of the village at ease.

[katerina-q]

Can we just talk about this Tobirama obsessed fangirl/Uchiha hater who keep harassing the Uchiha fans on Reddit, Twitter and on Tumblr? If you got harassed by her, you know who i'm talking about.

-She keeps harassing and insulting the Uchiha fans because they don't agree with her bullshit. You know, the Uchihas are pure evil (all of them), they deserved permanent imprisonment in a loony bin, they deserved to be exterminated etc etc. Don't you dare disagree, or you are a "brainless Uchiha wanker".

-Uchiha apologists are dumb fucks with the IQ of a jellyfish. Her words. At the same time she complain about "Tobirama haters", and she praising him as a saint.

-Tobirama bashing is bad. Madara, Hashirama and Uchiha bashing is good. Harassing their fans also is good.

-Madara was a racist with the Senju, according to her. The most prolific Uchiha hater calling Madara racist for disliking the Senju...you know, there’s a joke here somewhere... But if someone say that Tobirama was a racist with the Uchihas....here we go with the insults, again. The double standards.

-She's insulting HashiMada shippers and she said that in their stories the shippers are pretending Madara "wasn't piece of garbage" (pretty sure she didn't read any HashiMada fic). BUT at the same she's shipping MadaTobi and she's reading the...."IC" MadaTobi fics. So HashiMada is bad and toxic, the shippers are stupid. But shipping MadaTobi is ok. They loved each other so much in canon, after all. They are IC, unlike HashiMada. Oook.

I just hate the hypocrisy of certain people. I blocked her on Tumblr and Twitter. Too bad i can't do the same on Reddit.

[noxxha]

Hashirama was definitely not stupid. Sometimes I wonder if his happy go lucky personality was genuine or if it was a facade? Both probably. It would do him no justice to say that he was not kind, that he was, but he changed as he grew up.

Hashirama definitely knew how to manipulate people, whether he was conscious of that fact or not as a child - or even an adult - but he could be scary, downright ruthless. The picture you inserted demonstrates that perfectly, it is even more chilling in the Manga, his expression.

Madara is not “mean”, he’s the more stable of the two in adulthood, but on the side of Hashirama he definitely appears intimidating. He is not naturally as charismatic (?) as Hashirama, I would honestly say that he is reserved also, Madara has obvious trust issues (who would not have that in such a era?) and the cliff scene illustrates his more thoughtful nature, while showcasing his grief over losing Izuna (god that remark that Hashirama dared to utter made my skin crawl, it also showed that he did not know Madara at all at that point)

The last part of your post is what intrigues me the most. And it is a great start for an analysis of Hashirama, as our parents (or caregivers) shape our perception of the world (from platonic bonds to romantic bonds) and Butsuma is anything but a loving father. To be fair, war leaves no one unscathed, but being physically abusive is just as damaging to a child as it is to be a child soldier. Of course, “tough love” was probably a necessity to survive the in the Warring States Era, but it would on the other hand cause tension and distrust between the clans (Senju and Uchiha in particular) and it would never get resolved because of Hashirama’s “see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil” and “brush it under a rug” type of philosophy when dealing with conflict.

Whenever I see Butsuma mentioned in anything related to Hashirama I want to know even more what a father Tajima was to his sons. The databook mentions that he was “cruel” and that he saw the love of his sons as something objective (the exact words escape me atm) but that he loved his sons nonetheless.

Butsuma might be the leader of the Senju clan, but there are better ways to achieve respect than hitting his son. Hashirama voiced his anger/frustration at the Shinobi system that took his brother from them, and that is a valid criticism to make when the era they lived in barely allowed people to live until they were 30 (that’s honestly terrifying). When analyzing Hashirama I don’t think its possible to not mention Butsuma and his way of asserting dominance/respect…parents/our household shape us after all (good and bad), and the emotional difficulties that Hashirama experienced later in life certainly has everything to do with Butsuma.

Living with that type of father cannot have been easy for Hashirama, Tobirama, Kawarama or Itama. It is no wonder Tobirama decided to bury all his feelings and disguise them as “rational thoughts” and whatnot. Humans are much more emotional than we sometimes would like, and Tobirama showcases how destructive it is to believe that we don’t have emotions (and yet he probably felt emotions quite profoundly, but preferred to keep them hidden)

I generally (for the sake of the “duality” theme present in Naruto) tend to see Tajima as a more loving father. One indication for that is their way of speaking with one another. I’m no expert when it comes to the Japanese language, I do not speak it - I am just intrigued by it.

Tobirama uses “anija” and “chichiue” when speaking about Hashirama and Butsuma respectively. These two words are very formal (and are no longer used in modern japanese)

Izuna addresses Madara as “nii-san” and Tajima as “tou-san”. This is the fascinating aspect of the Japanese language; how the hierarchy (and closeness) of family members is shown so plainly in the way they address one another. While not always the case, we can be quite sure that Madara had a closer relationship to his father than what Hashirama had with his. (Izuna is also not afraid to voice his disbelief, when Madara admits being weaker, or voice his joy at seeing Madara’s sharingan - addressing his father while doing so) Tajima even asks for Madara’s opinion, asking him if he, Madara and Izuna can win against the Senju (with Madara resorting to lie for the sake of avoiding a direct confrontation). Would not surprise me if Tajima was an important person in Madara’s life (perhaps equally important like Izuna, but for different reasons) *shrugs* but that is impossible to determine from the Manga alone. (If only we had gotten Madara’s POV…)

I detail that stuck out to me in the english dub of the episode when the families clash at the river, was what Tobirama said. The moment where Madara and Hashirama make their escape (and Butsuma, Tobirama, Tajima and Izuna do the opposite) Butsuma says; “Let’s go Tobirama” and Tobirama responds with “Yes sir” - not “yes father” - not super significant, but it does highlight the fact that the Senju had a very, very authoritative father. Or I read too much into this, that can also be the case.

I think I will leave this answer like this, it’s getting long. But there is a lot that can still be written when it comes to the wonderful characters that makes up the Warring States/Founders era.

Sometimes I’m just so baffled by the love Madara felt for Izuna.

It’s been described by Hashirama that Madara loved Izuna more than Itachi loved Sasuke and just to put it into perspective - Itachi did kill his entire clan to protect Sasuke. 

Makes me wonder all the time what Madara would have done for Izuna. 

Makes me go crazy.

Uchihan sibling love is something I will never be able to understand fully with my little mortal human nut brain

[noxxha]

Was Izuna anti-peace?

I have seen quite a few takes where Izuna is described as being “anti-peace”, a “warmonger” and a “brat” for talking Madara out of an alliance with the Senju.

In my eyes it is a very simplified view on a concept that is much broader. Izuna is not a deep character if you only look at the source material (and I lament such wholeheartedly). Fill in the gaps and you have a character rich on complexity and contrast to Madara, Hashirama and Tobirama.

The last words we get from Izuna (remember that we see the Uchiha through Hashirama’s perspective) are;

This scene is prolonged slightly in the anime, with Izuna questioning his brother if he has forgotten that these bastards have killed everyone (their kin)?

It is hypocritical of Izuna to ask his brother this on one hand (they are no different in the eyes of the Senju) and yet it is the truth as well; the Senju have slaughtered countless Uchiha.

It can be see as manipulative words from Izuna’s side, as a way for to sway Madara to continue this feud, but Izuna is doing his duty as co-leader as well; reminding Madara of their losses so he does not make a choice out of sentimentality (or from a place of emotional distress from their predicament at hand).

The above could indicate someone who is selfish, prideful and stubborn enough to accept death rather than an alliance with their mortal enemies (peace).

But not necessarily.

There is neither anything that indicates that Izuna would be for peace, nor anything indicating that he is against it either (other than his words, that depend heavily on a context we never got - the side of the Uchiha and a more concrete characterization of Izuna as a character).

Honestly, the only selfish thing was making Madara promise to keep the clan safe. And - in my eyes - the only reason Izuna had him make that oath in the first place was because he knew that Madara would follow him in death if he didn’t.

The databook for Izuna mentions that he is harmonious and devoted - two traits that stand in direct opposition to his actions (perpetuating a cycle of violence). But as is the case with us humans; we can be loved by one person, loathed by another, kind to someone and cruel to someone else.

Izuna talked Madara out of an alliance at the time, that much is true, but that does not mean that Izuna is against peace as a whole.

He was simply wary of the Senju in particular - perhaps he might even have been concerned that his brother’s kind heart was clouding his judgement, and that the history with Hashirama would have him make a choice to the detriment of the clan. He had a more…objective (but still subjective) opinion of Hashirama (and Tobirama) in particular.

The Senju are their nemesis; both sides lost family and kin to the sword of the other.

And all that for generations and further generations…that is a lot of hatred, resentment and pain one must be willing to accept and let go of (as in letting go so it does not compromise your life and destroy you). The desire for peace has to be more import than the desire vengeance…and that is not an easy choice to make.

They have also dehumanized each other to keep this feud alive - and those thoughts must also be cleansed for trust to be cultivated.

Another information we are missing is how exactly Hashirama attempted to negotiate peace (we only see one attempt the moment Izuna is bleeding to death against his brother, and he mentions that he sent a peace treaty sometime after - that is what I assume - Izuna’s passing). How often did he try before that, and how did the Uchiha (namely Madara and Izuna) respond? That, we do not know.

We do not know how discussions for/against an alliance looked like between the brothers; Heated arguments? Calm discussions? Izuna getting his will? Madara getting his? Compromises? Extortion? Their ideologies being opposites or more alike than they might seem at a glance?

Going through the scene in question it honestly appears that Hashirama’s attempt to negotiate peace was offered on the spot, then and there, when it could have been offered at any other time - instead of coinciding with the second-in-command being mortally wounded.

It was a war - kill or be killed - but Hashirama nearly makes it all look like one elaborate scheme, the way Izuna is used against Madara in something close to emotional extortion from the Senju’s side, to get Madara to finally accept his offer of peace. Hashirama also loses no words over the fact that Izuna - the person most dear to Madara’s heart (and sanity) - is bleeding to death as they speak.

No, Hashirama was focused on the peace treaty - anything (or anyone I should perhaps say) else be damned.

Fictional characters, fictional circumstances - but war is war. Just think for a moment how you, yourself, would have responded in such a situation. Think for a moment how much hatred - how many hurtful and contradictory, to downright hypocritical messages - had to be spoken and ingrained for the Uchiha clan and the Senju clan to justify their right to murder one another.

It is easy to say “just put aside your pride and accept peace”, but there are so many factors at play during a conflict as grand and destructive as war.

From petty to justified (if it ever truly is).

Another thing is the fact that slaughtering each other was done out of economical gain. They were hired - paid - to kill one another. It was not only a personal, ideological war between these two, it was a war of economical necessity.

And to blame is the system they lived in. That system is what shaped them and caused bloodshed (as well as a millennial old grudge between two brothers, but that was honestly not necessary…Kishimoto could have just gone a purely psychological route and everything would have still fallen into place…more or less)

We, as the audience, know what happens to the Uchiha clan around three generations later since Konoha’s founding; but Madara did not at the time. When he made his choice he could not anticipate just yet that it would doom his clan.

Izuna - because of his biased views and hatred - saw an alliance between Uchiha and Senju as nothing but a disadvantage for their clan. The victors, the conquerers, write the stories that shape history - not the conquered and oppressed (or slaughtered). He probably had a few well thought out arguments for his view as well I can imagine. They certainly could not be congested into something so broad as “because I hate them”. His arguments probably included their differences (not out of malice or even hatred for them) but the simple differences such as “believing in different deities, a different diet or work ethic” to differences that cause strain if not handled well, such as “different values when it comes to raising children, caring for the community, for the elderly and sick, marriage, integration” etc that make up society’s role in how it should offer support and protection.

The Uchiha and Senju were alike as much as they were different - but Izuna did not want to go down that road and understand them (in a more peaceful, domestic setting he might have, but during war - when humanity is at its absolute worst? It is easier to just focus on survival than anything grander)

In the end he put the wellbeing of their clan above his own survival even.

Breaking Madara’s heart (and his sanity) in so doing.

We also have to remember that Naruto is not influenced by our western values and culture(s). It is fiction influenced by Japanese culture and history (the Warring States Era being not so different from medieval Japan).

Danzō’s thought process here is probably a thought that Izuna had as well during every battle. The gap between their generations is not so vast either, and the one who is Hokage at this point is Tobirama (a man born in the Warring States Era), who probably kept the thinking of that time alive (mixed with the Will of Fire) in the shinobi of the new generation.

Influenced by these values, it makes it easier to understand the possible reasoning that Izuna could have had in the moment he willingly went to his grave (they are also shinobi who value pride and honour, no matter how misguided).

If nothing else he showed loyalty to his beliefs and principles, even if it cost him his life.

The picture is from Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm: Generations. I honestly love how they had Madara hesitate for a moment before shaking Hashirama’s hand (Hashirama reached out his hand without hesitation)

We are not shown Hashirama doing anything to soothe the resentment lingering between Uchiha and Senju (we can only speculate what discussions were had and what actions were taken…if any). But judging from how he handled Tobirama (or not), he probably had the same mentality (more or less) when it came to the clans - that cooperation and living together would solve everything in due time. They had laid down their weapons, that much is true, but that does not erase the emotions of having been at each other’s throats for generations. Trust issues and suspicion reared its ugly head - Tobirama being a prime example of having “forgotten” but not forgiven.

Madara himself was not in the right state of mind at the time the village was founded, weighed down by grief over the loss of Izuna (and reminded of his loss whenever Tobirama showed himself) and his position as leader questioned. Not only that, his political power was probably not on par with the might of the Senju - which creates an imbalance in power (while fueling paranoia and resentment) - and laid the groundwork already for a Senju dominated government while reminding Madara about how the Uchiha were still inferior to the Senju. Be it in war or in this attempt for peace.

Had Izuna survived I imagine the political climate would be drastically different from what is depicted here (if the Uchiha even decided to join Konoha, they could very well have created their own nation to live in peace…if the Senju had allowed such, of course…)

Democracy you say? About that…

And being inferior translates to less influence in this instance. Tobirama mentions that the Hokage will be chosen through democratic means (the people shall decide) and that Konoha is different from the time of “their father” (Which indicates that the leader of the clan was chosen differently during Butsuma and Tajima’s era - the most powerful perhaps?) but have we ever seen a Hokage being chosen by these aforementioned people? The only character mentioned to have been chosen by the people was Hashirama.

What happened to democracy, Tobirama?

Tobirama appointed Hiruzen himself as Hokage (and the lad was what? 15 - 20 years old? That could mean nothing but disaster) and that would continue through the generations. Even worse; every Hokage (while not a direct descendant) has had ties to the Senju clan in one way or another (affirming Madara’s apprehension that, the moment Tobirama became Hokage, the Uchiha clan would be removed from any sort of influential position once and for all).

Then again, democracy as we know it was NOT how it was established in ancient Greece.

“Athenian Democracy was a system of government where all male citizens could attend and participate in the assembly which governed the city-state. This was a democratic form of government where the people or ‘dēmos’ had real political power. Athens therefore had a direct democracy.” (Source)

Keyword being direct here (which is what Tobirama is…he makes Hiruzen Hokage “directly”). So, to be fair, democracy was most likely in its infancy during Konoha’s founding. The system of democracy probably changed and evolved as time passed, until it was a bit more like the democracy we are familiar with today.

Not that any of this was an advantage for the Uchiha clan. They were still not given a powerful position in Konoha (The elders of Konoha consists of Tobirama’s old team…well, everyone but Uchiha Kagami, who could have been the first Uchiha who gained a political post…but no, he is conveniently dead) and no Uchiha has been Hokage (Fugaku was probably the closest one…had the attack of the Nine-Tailed fox/Kurama not happened he might have made it)

It was probably the above conflict between Iwagakure and Konoha, that disillusioned Madara and returned him to the cold hearted, brutal reality he wanted to change into something better and kinder (for his clan and Izuna).

Madara looks as if he has realized something and it pains him in the moment to admit that he has gone down the wrong path.

Instead he was reminded that his kin before him, that his beloved Izuna, had died for nothing.

Their world had not changed at its core.

Whether they were savages or living more civilized…people still were in conflict with one another, stole from their neighbors and fought for more territory.

In that instance he probably realized that Izuna had been right in his distrust of an alliance, that Konoha would be the death of them - that he had let himself be ‘deceived’ by Hashirama (listening to his words instead of observing his action to follow through on these words).

And he did what he always should have done; honouring Izuna’s last will.

And that he did, if a little too late.

Izuna was not against peace in my eyes - he was against the way Hashirama wanted to go about it. Because, no matter how you look at it, one side in the alliance would end up with the short end of the stick/at a disadvantage.

And we all know how disastrous the consequences would end up becoming for the Uchiha clan (the co-founders that had made Konoha possible in the first place!).

Izuna was the Uchiha that had the greatest influence of swaying Madara to a different path - that could have included that the Uchiha created their own nation, with the clans identifying more with the beliefs and values of the Uchiha. And (if making a darker claim here) what if Hashirama wanted Izuna gone because the former knew that the latter was the person standing in the way of Hashirama having any influence on Madara in their adulthood?

Hashirama’s definition of peace was not the same as Madara’s definition - and the one person that knew that, was Izuna.

[chalabrun]

Hashirama’s political marriage to Mito was to strengthen Leaf as a new military village. I get it that the serious lovers of hashisaku pairing, who’re under the impression that this could actually work (’cause Sakura was robbed in Canon; she’s always duking robbed!), aren’t all that bright, but Hashirama tossing aside the wife he took in for political reasons for Sakura ... is one of the most idiotic things I’ve ever heard. What would Sakura offer to him compared to Mito? Nothing. And Tobirama? He was probably ... gay or completely asexual. Why would Sakura interest him? She’s completely ordinary, and she possesses no talent to invent nor any natural ability for him to study. She isn’t even remotely prodigious to even mildly interest him.

So, let me get this straight... You see fit to pick a fight with the shipper of a harmless rarepair, why, again? A ship that barely makes a blip on the Founders' side of the fandom's radar, just to bandwagon the same shit Sakura-anti's have been peddling for years? Aside from the fact that your argument is the most tired bullshit in existence, I'm going to state it over in case it's not getting through your thick skull:

The ship on places like tumblr or twitter are tagged. On Ao3, it's tagged. Instead of bitching and moaning about a ship you could easily avoid, you could block the tags and move on. It's not fucking rocket science. If you go out of your way to seek it, that's a you-issue, not that of us shippers.

Secondly, why is it the Founders' fandom only gets possessive of Hashirama when shipping him with Sakura is involved? From what I've seen, you all are happy to shit on Hashi's character for miles around, belittling him as a dumb idiot who can't function without his brother as if he wasn't the most powerful shinobi in the fucking series, who was a charismatic military leader capable of bringing even his clan's sworn and ancient enemies under the fold to unite in a revolutionary village that was his idea in the first place? But no, unless it's convenient, he's either dumb as a rock or people hamfist one-dimensional yandere tropes to make his brother or Madara look like poor little meow-meows.

And don't even get me started on how ya'll treat Hashimito, let alone Mito. 'Political marriage', where? Show me irrevocable proof that Hashimito was only a political marriage, that Hashirama didn't grow to love and cherish his wife with time. I mean, fuck's sake, this pairing was the blueprint for ships like Dantsu, Minakushi, and Naruhina, but instead your reductive take was that it was just for political gain? Or how she's the awful, bad lady who gets in the way of pairings like Hashimada (even if smart people polyship them, but I guess I'm not one of them, according to you).

Again with the headcanons. Show me complete and utter proof that a manga with heteronormative endgame ships that Tobirama was gay or asexual. (And don't bring SNS into the mix when Kishi literally based them off his relationship with his twin brother, you naughty incest shippers! /s)

Oh, but the horror of shipping him with Sakura! In a horrible, terrible ship that barely has 50 fics to its name! Won't someone think of the poor Hashimada shippers who have almost ~2k fics on Ao3? Or Tobimada that blitzes well past it when Tobisaku has barely 120? Goodness gracious, someone save them!

I mean, who can ever think of shipping the poor Senju bros with a woman who didn't even exist in their era, who is usually transplanted via Genswap or time travel AU's? In fanworks that absolutely affect canon! Wow, she's such a threat! I mean, gosh, she's just soooo useless with how she became the strongest kunoichi in the Leaf, the greatest med-nin in the world after her master's retirement, who was so gosh-darn useless as the heroine! I mean, it's not like she could mesh well with Hashirama who's stated to have healing abilities greater than Tsunade! Oh, they'd never get along. And I bet she'd never get her foot through the door with Tobirama, especially since Sakura's expertise with biomedical sciences would grate so much against his own expertise in similar fields! And the fact that they share similar values just wouldn't do! Y'know, since their shared morals and desire to protect humanity and the village just wouldn't work! Awful, just awful.

Also... why on earth do you assume Tobirama would want to boink a test subject? I don't know about you, but that sounds awfully belittling despite how high of an esteem you hold for you him, supposedly. So what if she isn't test subject-worthy? I don't know about you, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to fuck someone I'm about to cut into, but that's just me. (And for the love of gods, don't bring Tobimada into this. Saying that every Tobimada shipper sees this as the sole reason they ship it is, again, pretty damn insulting to them lmao--)

Besides that, Sakura has invented jutsu before, my dear, pea-brained friend. She created Cherry Blossom Impact, drastically expanded on chakra-enhanced strength in the novels, devised the Delicate Illness Extraction Technique, a chakra radar, among others. But, again, if you dilute your reasons for shipping a pairing based on how much jutsu they've invented, who's being shallow here, exactly? The way I see it, Tobirama would want to be with someone intelligent who is strong enough to protect the village and who shares similar values as him. Why would he care about arbitrary things like how much he could experiment on? He's not Dr. Frankenfurter, please.

And even if people ship them because they self-insert in Sakura and want to ship her because she's the heroine and some rando, Founder or otherwise, is hot, who cares? This is fucking fandom. Shipping isn't activism or a career, and sure as hell doesn't add anything to canon except enjoyment in the fanbase. It's 2022 and it's too late in Naruto's existence to care about intellectual quandaries surrounding shipping, of all things. If you do, then good lord--see a therapist. Get a different hobby outside of fandom, it sounds like you need it.

But, thanks for being an amusing waste of time. I'll be sure to reflect on this when I continue writing my Foundersaku stories, buh-bye!

[leportraitducadavre]

The anti-Uchiha fandom seems to have reached the very end of its journey. Like no, seriously: not only do they go out of their way to use hashtags that are meant to be used by pro-fans in order to get a rise out of us, but they also obliterate actions performed by their so-called “faves” in order to demote the Uchiha even further.

So now, apparently, Madara planned for Izuna to die and steal his eyes (no, really! He did!) to get the infinite mangekyou sharingan -and Tobirama was nothing but a puppet that he used to fulfill his goal (when I tell you the man was a genius!).

Alright, he did renounce his friendship with Hashirama and screamed that he’ll never forgive anyone who dared to try to kill Izuna, but you don’t get it, it was all part of his plan! He knew he’ll need to train the younger sibling enough to be a match for him and his eyesight (the years he wasted!), then he either:

1) Made a clone of himself and henged it to look like Tobirama (who knows where the real Tobirama was at this point, maybe creating a Jutsu or discriminating against another minority).

2) He put the Senju under a genjutsu in the middle of the battlefield to control his movements to dispose of his baby brother.

3) Madara allowed Tobirama to hit him otherwise Madara would have reached them in time to save Izuna -not like Tobirama is skillful or he was busy with Hashirama, pft! Like, it’s so easy! Don’t you get it?

I mean, c’mon! Madara clearly hated his baby brother! He never says it tho, also he canonically saves him and threatens anyone who tries to kill him… he also abandons the battlefield when Izuna is wounded… and Hashirama explicitly said Madara loved Izuna -but he clearly hated him I swear!

They really do rather take away Tobirama’s accomplishment (killing one of the two best Uchiha warriors of that era), in order to hate on the Uchiha -not even Tobirama’s biggest stan (yes, you know who I’m talking about) and her alters found an issue with this, they read “Madara DID stole Izuna’s eyes” and immediately liked it -reading is for another time. Can’t believe I’m more respectful of Tobirama’s achievements than them.

[internal-ethics]

Ok im bored and ran out of good content so fuck it lets do this. Decided not to publicize it for so long bc its difficult.

This is my boldest and most prized contribution to this cursed fandom, as well as my dearest tribute to Tobirama, the best political character ive ever read in fiction, and his anija.

warning - this might not be for people with too heavy leaning on anti-konoha, anti-Hashirama sentiments or ships that's not hashimito or tobirama/konoha, or take the timings and numbers of the databook too seriously.

Hashirama is vaguely hinted to canonically have retired as Shodai years earlier, then married Mito, then lived till 10-20 years after VOTE and died in or before the 2nd War.

Tobirama died first in the 1st War. The scene where he sacrificed himself for his squad happened before the VoTE fight, not after. It's his death that signaled the End.

Hashirama losing his power/ability to lead due to possible depression and keeping a low profile (no one could know how and when the Shinobi God died because village situations, and there were sensors and trackers who could find him) is the reason why he didnt know the motive of the Police Force that Tobirama created, and also struggled with Kurama to the point he needed Mito to LEND him power, when earlier he could beat both Kurama and Madara.

Zetsu made up bullshit about Tobirama burying and letting Madara escape with a clone, based that assumption on Tobirama's reputation of creating weird jutsus involving sacrifices, most likely framing him for his surbodinates' doings, because Tobirama totally never knew Tsunade, possibly never even met Mito and dealt with a jinchuuriki, while Hashirama did both, comparing teenage Sakuras power to Tsunade's.

Zetsu also would not have been near there to know what the senju brothers did because they were both sensors that could detect him. Hashirama was the one who buried Madara.

As Onoki said this summit was to end minor conflicts, it happened right after Konoha was founded, not right before the WW. the 2nd kages looked much younger than in the VOTE/WW era. Hashirama likely had other means, more temporary and less effective, to restrain Kurama at this point (his mokuton and necklace) The databook also never said Hashirama died in which war.

Tsunade and Tobirama had no recollection of each other outside Tsunade only calling him distantly 'nidaime' since part 1 and only 'heard' about the ones who killed him.

meanwhile Hashirama was too familiar with tsunade as she with him, and familiar with the village and people, so that he could recall his memories with it despite just having seen it before he died like weve been told.

He talked like he's been through 2 wars with them.

Our second known grandkid of Hashirama was Nawaki, who was 11 years younger than Tsunade. Unless his first son has multiple children in short years which is pure fanfiction, how would he know Tsunade was his 'first' grandkid and how she would turn out 'in the end' if he died when she was this small.

Also the fact that Hashirama didnt wear Konoha headband in the VOTE fight.

But did wear it when he married Mito. Tsunade was not Mito's grand daughter.

As for how he died, its in battle, probably to a nobody mob while protecting his clan or Mitos clan (both conveniently destroyed or disappeared after hes dead). And by the time they killed him and he let them do that, i doubt they even realized or remembered they killed the First Hokage and God of Shinobi. I mean youd think whoever killed him should have been insanely famous, regardless of his power level at the time.

Tobirama said "my role as Second Hokage was to stand between and meditate between brother and Madara while protecting the village" this raised eyebrows because there would have been no one to stand between if he only became Second after Hashirama died and Madara left (forever). Meaning Hashirama was alive when Tobirama became Second, and it had been like that for a long time.

This is what a japanese fan thought of Tobirama's death

Between the two brothers, it makes more sense for the 'normal' one who invented jutsu that defied the law of nature, including

ninja nuclear bombs,

Summoning the dead and giving them infinite chakra

clones only reserved for monster chakra reserves like Naruto with Kurama in him

and a teleportation jutsu that required 5 people in place of an absolute genius like Minato to do- moderately,

rather than a powerful monster with the same annount of chakra as a bijuu AND sage mode that heals himself, to die earlier out of illness.

This is also why Hashirama would ban Tobiramas jutsu and compiled them into HIS scroll seen in the very first chapter - they likely literally shorten ones life. Hashirama wouldnt want random people to drop dead using them...like his brother.

Some more readings on which Japanese samurai characters that have been Kishimoto's references for the founders.

Oda Nobunaga - Hashirama's first concept when he was a scary rugged scarred and big nosed guy, the one who stopped the genenations long wars, unified japan and died right after realizing the dream, but he died partly because of his brutality and crimes in life - he ACTUALLY killed his brother by blood among others of his family who betrayed him. His successor has nickname 'Saru'.

Ashikaga Takauji - Hashirama's later concept, first shogun of his era but softer big brother guy.

Ashikaga Tadayoshi - Takauji's younger brother who stepped up where he couldnt, disagreed with Takauji on politics and died 5 years before his brother did, in defeat but also there are sources that say he suffered some kind of illness before that.

Ko no Moronao - Takauji's close friend who Tadayoshi hated and was later exiled.

More references in Japanese creation mythos involving Izanagi and Izanami, where Izanagi killed his Fire god son Kagutsuchi after Izanamis death, hence his words "my very own child".

[nekisui]

“SNS IS INCEST” DEBUNKED

hi guys, i wanted to write all of this on this post, but then i found out that on tumblr you can’t put more than 10 pics. so i’ll post here the posts that i posted on instagram (on naruto.fanon)

further notes:

[•] The manga pannels are with VIZ’s official translation.

[•] ib from ultrastormy-ocean on tumblr for the first analysis!

[•] Meaning of incest:

Incest is the human sexual activity between family members or close relative. This typically includes sexual activity between people in CONSANGUINITY (blood relations), and sometimes those related by affinity (marriage or stepfamily), adoption, clan, or lineage.

This means that even if Naruto and Sasuke had somewhat Indra and Ashura’s souls living inside them, it still wouldn’t be incest. The “soul incest” that antis invented, doesn’t exist no where. Some ppl also say that Sasuke and Naruto are distant cousins so it’s incest. The relation between clan Uzumaki and clan Senju is really old (and we don’t know how Kushina and Mito were related) and we actually don’t know how much distant Sasuke and Naruto are related (probably really a lot). However, incest is not incest anymore once has passed a lot of generations (Mito and Hashirama were distant relatives but it was still considered right to marry each other), and if we want to go by antis logic, even Naruhina is incest, bc Hyuga clan is related to Otsutsuki, and so are Senju and Uzumaki (Uzumaki in a undirected way).

[•] Long story short: Naruto and Sasuke doesn’t have Indra and Ashura’s souls, but their chakra and powers (waiting for the “chakra incest” as if chakra served something other than to keep alive and empower lol). They probably inherited also their roles, even tho i think they would have fight even wo all this destiny thing. With “roles” i don’t mean brother’s roles, but the role of one believing the power is everything, and the other believing that cooperation is the true solution.

•

[•] Translation of the interview is taken from “Me, Myself and I” on Tumblr.

[•] As I said before, due the meaning of “incest”, even if they would have been completely based on Kishi and Seishi, it still wouldn’t be incest.