#andor negativity

[andorerso]

"I don't understand the Maarva hate" the woman literally kidnapped a child. a white woman literally kidnapped an indigenous-coded child. for a fandom who likes to talk about the ~nuances~ and ~small details~ of the show, some of you are sure fucking blind to the colonialism and white savior parallels here.

[antianakin]

My main problem with the idea of either non-Force sensitive people becoming Jedi or the whole "everyone is actually Force sensitive if you try hard enough" thing isn't that Force sensitivity is what makes the Jedi interesting, it's that this is what makes them JEDI.

There are TONS of characters in Star Wars who, if they were Force sensitive, would make excellent Jedi and I love quite a few of them. Just for a few quick examples off the top of my head: Bail and Breha Organa, Beru and Owen Lars, and Hera Syndulla (the Rebels version, not the Ahsoka show version). Sabine Wren, by the end of Rebels, would count on this list, as well (but not the Ahsoka show version). Jyn Erso and Bodhi Rook, especially by the end of Rogue One (Baze and Chirrut obviously would fit on this list, too, but they are already a part of their own religion that they might have chosen regardless of whether they were Force sensitive or not and I am choosing to respect that). Bix Calleen and Brasso from Andor. Greez from the Cal Kestis games maybe. And there's probably more that I am missing.

But the point I am making here is that none of these characters (bar Sabine in the Ahsoka show) are ever assumed to be Jedi. I don't think a SINGLE fan would ever try to argue with me that they ARE Jedi. And obviously it does not make any of them less interesting or enjoyable as characters to not be Jedi.

So if you're going to come at me with the accusation "How boring do you have to be to think the only reason the Jedi are interesting is because they're Force sensitive" then my rebuttal is this: Do you think all of the non-Jedi characters in Star Wars AREN'T interesting because they don't bear the title of Jedi? Does Sabine Wren suddenly become MORE interesting of a character when she's (theoretically) the exact same character, but now she gets to call herself a Jedi? Would Bodhi Rook or Brasso suddenly be more interesting characters if they called themselves Jedi but nothing else about them changed?

How boring do YOU have to be to think that the only interesting characters in Star Wars are those who call themselves Jedi? Personally, I really love that there are all of these characters out there with a bunch of different narrative paths open to them specifically because they AREN'T Jedi. Cassian Andor, Luthen Rael, Saw Gerrera, and Mon Mothma get to be REALLY intricate and morally ambiguous characters specifically because they are not Jedi at all. All the characters I listed above get to be these really lovely heroes for the little guy that showcase that you don't need to have cosmic powers and a laser sword and a fancy title to make a difference. There's a whole sort-of underlying side story within some of these stories about how the galaxy relied on the Jedi to solve all of their problems and how they're forced to step up and defend themselves for once after the Jedi are destroyed, leading to the introduction of all of these non-Force sensitive heroes, some more grey than others.

The Jedi are beacons of hope within the narrative, a model of selfless compassion to constantly strive towards. They are characters who consistently become their best selves through hard work and dedication. This is one of the MANY reasons I love them so much.

But I ALSO love that there are characters who AREN'T Jedi, characters who have no additional cosmic powers or knowledge, and have to figure out how to make the right choice instead of the easy choice ANYWAY, even when it's hard, even when it requires sacrifice. I love stories about the little people in the galaxy learning how to step up and emulate the Jedi when the Jedi are no longer there to be a bulwark between them and their own darkness. The beautiful tragedy of this entire side story lies in the galaxy learning the lessons the Jedi were trying so hard to teach them only after the Jedi themselves are gone due to the galaxy's selfishness. This is the bed the galaxy made for itself and now they have to lie in it. But they do! Eventually, person by person, they do.

And eventually, after many many years, just like their selfishness bore consequences, their selfless efforts also ultimately bring rewards in the form of the Jedi returning. And it's only once the Jedi and the people of the galaxy start fighting TOGETHER, the way they were always supposed to, that they're able to defeat the darkness. THAT'S the story. The Jedi and the people of the galaxy are in a symbiotic relationship with each other, a theme that doesn't work if you go for the concepts where everyone gets to be a Jedi. The Jedi are a specific group of people, they are the Force made manifest, they are beacons of hope, they are an ideal to work towards. This doesn't work with the "Jedi can also be people without Force sensitivity" or "everyone has Force sensitivity" concepts. It just doesn't.

So of course there are plenty of characters who aren't Force sensitive who follow Jedi philosophies or act in a way the Jedi would approve of. These people are the ones choosing to be in balance with the Jedi, which in turn is what brings balance to the entire galaxy.

If this interpretation of Star Wars and the Jedi comes off as boring to you, then, well, that sounds like a you problem and you're more than welcome to find a different corner of fandom to go spend time in and leave me to my corner.

[sun-dari]

i have finished watching andor and it's really good, it's well written, had things to say and made me cry a couple of times

is it a perfect show? not really. it's not free of some dumb nonsense and tonal dissonance. like, when the show cuts from a somber scene to a couple of morons exchanging hats i'm not thinking about what it's trying to say about police and military worship, i'm thinking that the show just undercut its own emotional impact

is it the best star wars property, as i've seen it being referred to? hard to say, at least in part because it's very different, as much down to earth as any star wars could be. i also love that it doesn't have any cameos of any of the big name characters whatsoever (the antiques guy turned out to be original character, to my surprise), despite having many opportunities to include them. thought, as any star wars, the show created an extremely endearing robot character, no notes

my thoughts overall: i loved it, will be waiting for the second season

[luminescentturtle]

lmao do you guys remember when star wars was good

[jewishcissiekj]

I still think that Andor is the straightest show for the sole fact that it has too many straight couples (even though it’s not focused on the romance) and Velcinta has not much screen time. Hopefully they will change it on season 2

good point and I do hope we get much more velcinta in s2 but also I liked the way the romance in Andor was done as opposed to hating almost everything in those Acolyte scenes lol. also it's been a while since I watched Andor and The Acolyte ep 6 was very aggressive with the heterosexuality so that biased my opinion

[across-stars]

can't exactly put my finger on why the Ahsoka finale felt so different to me compared to the Andor finale, even though they both set up the character's places in the story while leaving things fairly open...

the Andor finale transformed a show that had been a bit of an emotional rollarcoaster for me into my favorite show ...and I mean genuinly an emotional rollercoaster, my opinion of the show changed every few episodes, especially the prison arc made me rather anxious and I had to force and drag myself through watching it, but precisely because the show engaged frankly with what the characters are experiencing it resonated emotionally with me and touched complicated feelings

but the Ahsoka finale has left me largely dissatisfied, and to put it succintly, cemented for me the feeling that in the end the series is less than the sum of its parts ...it seemed to hint at much more depth when it comes to the characters and their dynamics, but ultimately seemed to shy away from really exploring them, with the notable exception being ''the fallen warrior'' episode, which made the difference only more jarring

in all fairness, there was a fair bit of hinting in Andor as well, but it was done in a way that made me believe there was actually something there, like cues that can be extrapolated from to make more sense of the characters when you just look closer, while the Ahsoka show makes me feel naive for imagening there is more to the characters than what is shown directly on screen

[legionofpotatoes]

man post-andor star wars feels so embarrassing

[potatoesandsunshine]

“this show was made for the biggest star wars nerds—” oh it’s so over. it has never been more over

[meandmyechoes]

as much as i’m annoyed with this week’s mando episode (and the last, and the one before that), i’m repeating to myself that i should take my own advice and see how the excessive quests pay off later. Buying R5 led to the Covert moving to Nevarro and fighting a torture droid gave Din an excuse to give up the darksaber. Maybe Bo and Din working so well together this time would lead to them co-Mand’aloring. Maybe the nonsense will pay off, yet why am i so impatient unlike with Andor?

It’s not just about the lack of a three-act structure, or even an overall ending in sight. Was there enough production details to glue me to that screen? passionate acting or speeches that reign free in my mind?

With every andor arc there end goal is established first and foremost. Season 2′s finale set up two main ones: 1. Grogu 2. Darksaber. The first one is resolved way too quickly and the second one, after so many convolutions, is sent off with three sentences. With the sacrifice of his helmeted identity, in exchange if unwillingly, is the authority to lead all Mandalorians. I think season three is a good time for a show to diver deeper into its protagoinst, maybe give them an existential crisis. I expected the season to explore the different Mandalorian factions and gave a resolution to it, as a backdrop to Din’s personal debate on faith - and maybe even stay focused on it. Have a few debates and politics about neutraility or militarism. Maybe even farm a little if there’s only orcs and mythical fish left on that planet now! Andor-level environmental storytelling might’ve been what a season focused on the Mandalorian system needs.

It’s definitely NOT as if EVERY Star Wars show needs to be Andor - one would argue that’s why S3E3 felt out of place. This season can’t seem to grasp its genre. It was an episodic adventure with a clan of two and that’s what people expect when you return them to status quo prematurely.

[superfan44]

Don't Be Quick to Judge the Acolyte (A Star Wars Opinion Piece)

I have always loved Star Wars. Ever since being introduced to the original trilogy as a kid, I have been a massive fan of this legendary sci-fi franchise. From one of my all-time favorites The Clone Wars, to the more recent shows like The Mandalorian, I always get a sense of joy and excitement whenever a new piece of Star Wars media is introduced or announced. Of all the related projects set to come out this year, the one that has intrigued me the most, is the live-action series "The Acolyte". First announced back in 2020, all of the details that I have heard regarding this series I find fascinating. A mystery thriller set during the High Republic Era, with an emphasis on showing the perspective of the Sith and drawing influence from martial arts movies. Some of these details are the things that really drew me towards it. Aside from its main space opera trappings, Star Wars has been known to explore various sub genres, especially in some of their most recent projects. These details alone have me both excited and curious to see what this series will bring to the table.

However, while I wait in anticipation, I noticed that not everyone seems to share the same feelings as me. On the internet, there has been plenty of negative discourse towards the series, mostly towards a few of the casting choices and the creatives involved in the series. It honestly still kind of baffles me as to why people are so quick to be so judgmental on a series that isn't even out yet. I guess what I'm trying to say is that maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge this series.

As someone who has seen a lot of movies and TV shows, I always like to approach everything with an open mind. I don't judge something based on what I want it to be, rather I just take it for what it is, regardless of how it ends up turning out. The same can certainly be said for Star Wars. I've been aware of the discourse surrounding the controversial sequel trilogy. Though I didn't outright hate them like some people did. When I saw each one in the theater, I just took them as they came, paying no mind to the nitpicks or flaws unless some people point them out afterwards.

When it comes to a massive IP such as this one, you're bound to have some people who will dislike or disagree with some of the narrative choices you make. Of course, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but that doesn't mean that we should say hateful things just for kicks, nor should we let some people influence how you feel about something. I've heard some people say that there is a fine difference between "good" and "fun". I don't want to name names here, but I will say that even if some parts of Star Wars aren't perfect, it can still be fun to watch. Sometimes there are even parts of Star Wars that are both good and fun, the original trilogy being an obvious example.

Look, if I'm being honest, I don't like trash-talking Star Wars because, at the end of the day, it does still mean a lot to me. Plus, to their credit, some of the newer stuff under Disney have had some hits here and there. The best example I can bring up is Andor, the prequel/spin-off to Rogue One. I remember when it was first announced, people weren't really as enthused about it, some even saying things like "nobody asked for this!". Then, the trailers dropped, and it began to draw people towards it. When the series officially dropped, it turned out to be a big hit with both critics and audiences.

With all that being said, I believe that the same thing might happen with The Acolyte. I have a feeling that the show might surprise us when it drops and turn out to be a hit. Of course, we don't know for sure, but until then, I say we should at least give this one a chance. Let's not be so quick to judge it.

[ibrokeeverything]

Why do so many people think that "filler" is the devil??? I've seen so many people complain every time there's an episode that's not 100% plot relevant, even if the episode is objectively good.

So many people seem to think that there's nothing of value in those "filler" episodes, which is just simply not true. They can be great for character development, relationship development, world building, etc. But, also just in pure entertainment value. At the end of the day, TV is made to entertain people. Yes, it can be more than that, but it doesn't always have to be. There is just as much value in a silly adventure of the week as there is in a dense, dramatic, plot-filled episode.

[andorerso]

The thing is, Cassian is Cassian in Andor and Rogue One, they’re not different characters. If people don’t like him in his show they simply don’t like him at all. There’s not how time progression works, the man from Andor will become the man from Rogue One and everything we see in the show is used to build his character and give substance to his actions in the movie. If they are “angry” at Cassian because of who he is, they just don’t like him.

I don't know if I agree in this instance. Rogue One came first. Yes, Andor is a prequel, but that doesn't change the fact that we already knew and loved Cassian from Rogue One. Then Andor came and changed core traits of him, and I'm not just talking about the backstory. It feels like Cassian but not *quite*, like a funhouse mirror version of him. We've had 5 years with RO Cassian, and just because it's a prequel that doesn't automatically make it good. You say it's a progression, except that a lot of us feel it doesn't quite add up to who he becomes at the end. You're allowed to like Cassian from RO and be upset and feel that they messed up his backstory.

[e-the-village-cryptid]

Stop putting Bixcassian negativity in the Andor tag, this is so tiring to see. If you don’t like their relationship and want to talk shit about it all the time DON’T TAG THE SHOW OR BIX we have enough hate from the rest of the fandom. There’s no reason to hate them and it’s not “problematic” or anything, just keep these takes away from the Bix and Andor tag

I have put exactly 2 posts in the bix tag in which I even mentioned cassian, and only 1 that expressed a negative opinion about their relationship— and even that one was mainly about not wanting to see their relationship used as a way to "fix" bix, but rather wanting to see her recover through community and her own strength. (The other was about being disappointed with the writers abandoning Bix's character in the last 3 1/2 episodes and removing all her strength and agency so Cassian can finally come and save her— if you interpreted a post about bad damsel in distress stereotypes and sexism in the writing as negativity about their relationship, I really don't know what to tell you.) I agree that putting these posts in something like the bixcassian tag would be incredibly rude, but I didn't do that. I am allowed to tag a show and character to talk about how much I love that character and how I'd like to see her arc develop. Saying "you can't tag a show with opinions about the show that I don't like" and "you can't tag a character if you don't ship her with the same person I do" is incredibly entitled. Those tags are for all of us who are fans of Andor and Bix to share. If you want to see pure bixcassian positivity, you can go to the tags for that ship.

[1794]

pov you picked up a rock in the forest

[padmesbox]

I'm so happy that the Hayden!Anakin episodes of Ahsoka are out so that I can stop pretending to care about these disney plus fixer uppers for the sequel trilogy, I can finally proceed with my life of ignoring anything pertaining the shit sequels and all attempts (that already ruined the mandalorian) at making it make sense bc it never will, what happened in those movies will never be okay or canon to me lol so yeah

I love you Hayden and I love you Anakin, thank you for existing, goodbye forever star wars

[david-talks-sw]

I got a good feeling about "The Acolyte"

Not even kidding. Like, I've spoken before about why I'm wary of it.

George Lucas' Star Wars is something that intentionally has black and white morality, rather than shades of gray. Those movies are meant for kids and projecting a "gray" morality onto them then proclaiming it was George's vision all along is doing so in bad faith.

The narrative of the Prequels doesn't frame the Prequel Jedi in as negative a light as Leslye Headland, Dave Filoni, etc etc do.

See here for more details, but bottom line: yeah, a show that has a darksider as the underdog is bound to demonize the Jedi (who are the actual underdogs in the Prequels), and obviously that rubs me the wrong way.

BUT.

The trailer looks fucking cool. It really really does.

And more importantly? I've done some research... and Leslye Headland is ticking a lot of good boxes, in my book.

1. The Acolyte won't be a 10-hour movie.

I've criticized Disney Plus shows before, explaining that a big source for most of their issues is that these series are being structured as "long movies" rather than, y'know, actual shows.

But in this interview with Collider, Headland addresses that: it'll be a series. Not a long movie that you need to watch across four weeks.

Thank God. You have no idea how much that comforts me. Finally a showrunner who's, y'know, actually running a show.

And this goes hand in hand with what she told IGN, here, about how she's going about building suspense.

Yes! Exactly! That's how it's supposed to be!

Like, compare this to Baylan Skoll's storyline in Ahsoka.

In no possible way was that emotionally-fulfilling. For 8 episodes we had no idea what he was after, and the season ended where we still don't know. What does he want? What is he after? Your guess is as good as mine, it's something Mortis-related.

So yeah. Maybe getting the Emmy-nominated trained screenwriter on board to run this was a good idea.

2. Maybe the Jedi will not be as demonized as I originally thought.

Don't get me wrong. 80% of what she says about the Jedi makes me cringe. It's the typical fan's interpretation and y'all know I disagree with that interpretation.

It's painful to see her refer to the Jedi as an institution (not how the Prequels' narrative frames them) and to see her frame "Balance" in the "oh there's so many of them and just two Sith, that means the Force is out of balance" meaning... but at least she acknowledges the Jedi are a benevolent institution.

They're not an "elitist force hiding in their ivory tower" as others have described the Jedi.

Moreover, there'll be a variety of Jedi POVs, many personalities.

Yord Fandar, is described as a strictly by-the-book Jedi Knight and guardian from the Jedi Temple, is an overachiever and a rule follower.

The question now becomes: will the narrative frame him as "your typical Jedi" or is it just this one guy? I'm hoping it's the latter.

I also like how her reasoning goes re: Jedi drawing their lightsabers.

Which explains the hand-to-hand combat seen in the trailer.

This teenager is coming at Carrie-Ann Moss with a dagger, of course the Jedi won't draw her saber.

3. She's a fan of Star Wars... but a screenwriter first.

You can tell in the interviews she's a fan. She's using words like "BBY" and "EU" casually. In the above-linked interviews she's bringing up the Nightsisters, Timothy Zahn, The Clone Wars, she mentions she has a tattoo of Ralph McQuarrie's concept art of Leia, the High Republic books, etc.

She's done her homework. She's a fan.

But the vibe I'm getting from these interviews is that she's weaving in these various lore-elements in a more organic way, rather than in the "fan-servicey" way Dave Filoni has been doing in his shows.

The references and Easter Eggs will be there, but the narrative won't bend over itself just so you can get it. Crafting a good story comes first, and Andor is a beautiful illustration of why this is true.

Which is why I was never bothered about one of the writers never having watched Star Wars before getting the job. You need those fresh eyes when you're tackling something of this scale.

That makes sense to me. Maybe it's because of my own screenwriting experience, but yeah. That out-of-the box perspective is precious.

And like, obviously, that writer watched the films eventually, but for some reason everyone who bitched about Headland omitted that detail and opted for a more bad faith interpretation.

Hm. Wonder why.

Maybe it's the same reason that months ago this clipped audio circulated socials without context, in which she debates whether Star Wars only came from George Lucas and only Lucas is the key.

The FULL context of that interview reveals that she's actually:

debating the "autheur director" myth and positing that it was achieved by a collective of excellent filmmakers and craftspeople that George was skilled and smart enough to recruit...

the studios now think it's a simple as hiring one guy and throwing money at him, because they have no idea what the fuck they're talking about. See Napoleon (2023) for example.

Yes, she also does a jab to the Prequels, which speaks to the generation of fans she's a part of... but overall she's giving Lucas props whilst also stating an ideological difference, that's it!

George is a proponent of the "autheur" theory, Leslye isn't.

However, guess what, in like half the talks George gave post-selling Star Wars? He's giving shoutouts to everyone who helped make the first film, even remembering their names.

So I'm not even sure he'd vehemently disagree with Leslye, in fact they'd prolly have a conversation about it and immediately bitch about how stupid studio executives are :D

But that's not as incendiary, is it? Again, the more I do the research, the more it feels like the reason most of these influencers are hating on her is purely sexist.

I mean, on IGN she's even acknowledging that she does plan on taking stock of fan reactions for Season 2.

It's not a guarantee that she'll incorporate the feedback, but at least that's more consideration than, say, JJ Abrams or Rian Johnson gave the fandom.

She's even bringing the moral ambiguity that the Gray Jedi-loving edge-lords love so much.

"No, she's a woke feminist! Anything she does is evil! Eww, girls!"

🙄

Needless to say... I'm gonna give it a shot.

I think it's gonna be a good show, I think it's gonna be a solid story.

I'm crossing my fingers that they won't as biased against the Jedi as it seems they'll be. Even if they are... if it's still an enjoyable experience, I'll gloss over it.

As @gffa states in this post:

Worst case? It's not a story from George. I can dismiss it from my headcanon without a moment's hesitation :D