#and then they get mutual respect for each other

[the-last-butter]

HC they first met a year or two after Yelan got her vision; post fighting the in abyss but when Kaeya was still navigating his identity from Kaeya, Brother and Right hand of Diluc Ragnvindr to Kaeya Alberich, Cavalry Captain and Quarter master of the Knights of Favonius.

[ghooostbaby]

more excellent tags! these ones from @sweetscentences

p.s. i cannot help myself, now i am thinking about them having warm emotional talks and braiding each others hair at sleepovers :3

#didn’t realize people were misinterpreting their relationship so badly??#if hua cheng looked down on or disliked he xuan he wouldn’t help him??#like I don’t think they’re having like warm emotional talks or like braiding each others hair at sleepovers#but there’s definitely a mutual respect between them that they don’t really offer many other people#and probably care with that even if they don’t acknowledge it#but yeah there’s no way Hua Cheng would help he xuan if he disliked him#it’s also?? a really clear part of Hua Cheng’s character that he presents himself as being a lot crueler colder and more aloof than he is#like he talks about looking down on his citizens#but has made them safe#downplays and plays off the uhh intensity of how he feels for Xie Lian early on#says he doesn’t have a relationship with he xuan#but then not only doesn’t interfere but helps him even with Xie Lian in the way#also as a side note I really doubt he xuan being Hua Cheng’s spy in the heavens is really much more than a justification#for Hua Cheng to help him in repayment#like there’s no way he wouldn’t be able to get other spies in the heavens easily#and he xuan was going to be up there anyway#but they’ve clearly figured out an arrangement where they both maintain face and don’t step on each others toes#while also getting to help someone they understand even if they never call it that

Now that i am fixated on he xuan and hua cheng’s dynamic, rereading the black water arc and seeing all of the tiny but meaningful ways they talk to each other is kind of a delight. I suppose on the surface it might seem that they’re kind of passive aggressive in their communication and at minimum are kind of prickly with each other. However, obviously all their face-to-face interactions are shown through the perspective of xie lian, who they need to convince that they are a legitimate god and the ghost king who kidnapped and tortured said god. they’d have to be pretty inept if they got along any better in front of a heavenly official… if you pay attention, it becomes clear how they’re actually always working together and helping each other out.

When shi qingxuan and “ming yi” first show up at the puqi shrine, hua cheng and ming yi react to each other with intense animosity and hua cheng tells ming yi to leave and not come back, and ming yi responds “coming here was not my choice!” The narration explains specifically that their reactions to each other must be because they had last met when hua cheng had kidnapped and tortured ming yi, at least as far as shi qingxuan and xie lian are concerned - so it seems to me that they are putting on a good act to help keep he xuan’s disguise up, while hua cheng is communicating objections to he xuan involving xie lian, and he xuan is responding that he doesn’t want to, but his hand has been forced by shi qingxuan.

Then when they’re going over shi qingxuan’s scrolls hua cheng corrects the mistakes that the kills attributed to the Reverend, and that actually some kills were his own and some were Black Water’s, and then has a pretty good time insulting Shi Wudu. All of that could be typical for Hua Cheng, and there also could be a lot of other double meanings read into it, but I just think that He Xuan probably enjoyed hearing that a lot. And when Hua Cheng describes how the Reverend goes after not only the prey but all its family and friends … something about it feels like he’s speaking for He Xuan’s benefit, speaking out loud all the things He Xuan can’t say yet about what happened to him so Shi Qingxuan has to be forced to deal with it, which I think would be a little satisfying for He Xuan. Hua Cheng seems to be giving him face, showing respect…

Then when they go through the array and Shi Qingxuan gets quite close to the truth of who meddled with the array, Hua Cheng starts babbling accusations and twisting logic so Shi Qingxuan gets confused and distracted and they move on. On the surface it looks like its because Hua Cheng could look guilty himself and he was showing that he wasn’t there to meddle or help, just to be with Xie Lian … but suspicion of Ming Yi was the most probable cause of the array taking them to a wrong place, and Hua Cheng’s contributions mean they barely consider it at all.

“What’s with that look? In my opinion, don’t you think Lord Earth Master is the most suspicious one?” said Hua Cheng.

Ming Yi’s eyes also swept over. 

Hua Cheng added, “Instead of focusing on guessing who meddled after, what if the array he drew was wrong from the beginning? You don’t necessarily need a reason to do something. Lord Wind Master, you yourself are suspicious too.” 

“Huh?” Shi Qingxuan had never thought the tables would turn on him, and pointed at himself. “Who? ME?!”

“Yeah. A thief crying thief is a common thing,” Hua Cheng said. “Just why have you come? If you and your esteemed brother are truly scared of the Reverend of Empty words, why were those rags cobbled together? It’s not a stretch of the imagination to think that the two of you schemed, and intentionally led us here.”

Just by looking at his expression, one could tell that he was cheekily gabbing nonsense; but he looked so confident that almost anyone would start doubting too. Shi Qingxuan was almost shaken.

(the last part ahahaha hua cheng <3)

 Even in the novel as a whole - hua cheng and he xuan do a lot of things to benefit the other that otherwise they wouldn’t have wanted to. They always have a self-serving reason to pass it off as instead of ���i just love my ghost king pal <3” but i firmly believe hua cheng and he xuan respect and *gasp* care about each other!!!

hua cheng lies to xie lian to support he xuan’s plans in the black water arc and i think it would take a LOT for hua cheng to do that. And in the last book, he xuan comes when hua cheng asks to help shi qingxuan hold together the spiritual array fighting the human face disease, that also is not something he would ever do lightly- even when he does come he seems very angry, as well as that this is the only time he shows his face around shi qingxuan again, and he hadn’t shown his face to anyone since his revenge but for this either.

Also in the last book, he xuan lets hua cheng trash his territory and pretty much smash apart his bonefish, and hua cheng says he can do this because of he xuan’s debt, but 1.) it doesn’t seem like he xuan is ever paying him back, or that there’s any kind of a collection deadline, he xuan just keeps taking more and more, 2.) hua cheng doesn’t seem liable to let someone take so much from him if he had wanted to be paid back, and 3.) hua cheng does not seem to care about any of his nice possessions and wealth, he’s pretty careless with the rare treasures he has, his own mansion burning down (twice?), and so on. He seems pretty unfussed about spending his resources as if there is always more where that came from. (credit to @muigiel for this observation) So i do think this is a purposeful mislead. Like the debt is a good cover for them to do nice things for each other :3 (i love them)

I think in general in tgcf ghosts and gods are not as they appear, and the more i look into ghosts in this book the more full of goodness, hope, love, and life they seem to be. (qi rong is an outlier and should not be counted. Ok but he is loved by guzi who apparently finds him to be a better father than the original (omg i’m so sorry guzi) so he does count a little i guess?) 

I think a good indicator of how the actions of these ghost kings should be taken is given in the moment with hua cheng, xie lian and guzi where guzi is afraid of hua cheng on sight, and xie lian says, “don’t worry, this gege is a good person” and hua cheng says “no, i’m a very bad person” while making a cute little butterfly fly over to guzi. in hua cheng’s and he xuan’s responses to each other it’s as if they’re saying “i’m a very bad bad person” while making little butterflies fly toward each other. if we miss that I think we’ve missed something important about the story.

[loveanddeepsecrets]

I can’t stop laughing at the idea of the LADS meeting each other and Zayne calling Rafayel a drama queen 😭😭😭

[merakiui]

How do you think Riddle would get into a friends with benefits relationship? Also, how would a relationship with him like that work anyway? Would it be something everyone’s aware of yet refuses to acknowledge? Would his dorm have more respect for you for calming the his tiny tyrant? I feel like ironically he would be a lot calmer around you and it would be a healthy start of a relationship for you two. But I’d like to hear your thoughts please.

I like to imagine Riddle was raised with the idea that you should only date for marriage and that marriage must always be the end goal in a relationship. No such thing as loveless "friends with benefits" or flimsy "situationships." Very traditional ideals ingrained in his head, courtesy of Mama Rosehearts. >_< so it's baffling to him when he's at NRC and learns about all kinds of different relationships. Hook-ups, fwb, complicated situationships, rebounds... there's just so much to keep track of and it's all so new.

Maybe it starts from a drunken mishap. Of course there's going to be alcohol at college parties, whether on campus or off campus. Maybe it's Deuce who mixes up the drinks and hands Riddle something alcoholic, or maybe Riddle himself decides he'll have alcohol that night. Maybe the two of you share a few kisses and some wandering hands in the corridor. Or maybe the two of you regularly spent time together and one thing led to another and... :) either way, there's a physical shift in your relationship together and Riddle isn't the type to let things hang up in the air.

Perhaps it's just for stress relief and pleasure. Nothing more. And perhaps it's curiosity or chemistry or something, but it doesn't sound terrible. It's Riddle's first time in this sort of relationship, but he won't deny that what the two of you did was enjoyable, even if you were both mutually intoxicated to remember most of it. ^^;;; regardless, so long as you're comfortable and okay with this, he wouldn't mind turning this into something. He's not sure how he's meant to feel when you say everything is no commitment and that you're just friends and that all of this is just casual. Riddle is a very committed guy who is so far from casual even though he's trying his best to be more lenient with himself and everything in his life. But those words are the best ways to describe all of this. Perhaps it's why he adds "no kissing" to the list of rules because kissing is a very romantic thing to him.

He's very meticulous, so naturally he makes sure to establish clear boundaries and rules. You go over what's on the table and what's a no-go. What the expectations (or lack thereof) should be. And for the first time in his life he's echoing the complete opposite of what his mother would lecture him about. No marriage. No dating. No romance. Just sex. It's friendship, but with benefits (as the name implies).

Funnily enough, I feel like he tries to set aside time for these things, but then who pencils into their schedule when they're going to have sex??? T_T maybe it's all spontaneous and impulsive, and at first it's a huge shift from what he's used to. But it's fun. He's never experienced anything like this before and you're just so...perfect. You're everything.

You'll witness new sides to Riddle the longer you spend with him, getting to know the guy beneath all of the stringent rules. Your friendship definitely strengthens during the times you spend with him, and Riddle is trying not to expect anything. Why would you or he stick around after sex? And why should he fret over his appearance and what he wears when you decide to go into town together? It's not a date. It's not romance. It's just sex. He has to remind himself of this when the two of you wake up curled into each other. That's just...biology. The human body needs warmth when it's cold. That's just normal. Aaaaa he's falling and he's not sure he can stay strictly casual and no commitment anymore.

As for who knows,,,, definitely Trey and Cater. Riddle goes to Trey about all kinds of stuff because they're friends and Trey is a good voice of reason, and it doesn't take a genius to understand what's happening. Trey won't say it outright, but he does try to poke at the issue to gauge where Riddle stands: "Well, if you like (Name) so much, what do you have to lose?" And poor Riddle is so frazzled because everything, Trey, he could lose everything if you don't feel the same way!!!! And Cater's been knowing LOL. He probably knew the day of the party that there was a vibe. >:)

There are so many hurdles and bumps to your relationship, but I do think it's very sweet if and when you and Riddle officially become a couple. And if not,,, perhaps Heartslabyul can push the two of you together because you're just the cutest, most cammable pair on campus right now (Cater's words). <3

[danika-redgrave124]

Winx Yuu and Dorm Leaders

Yuu and Riddle

Yuu’s celestial aura and calming presence contrast starkly with Riddle’s strict demeanor. Initially, Riddle struggles with how unbothered Yuu is by rules, though he secretly admires their self-discipline.

Yuu helps Riddle learn to relax a bit, often suggesting stargazing as a way to unwind.

Riddle respects Yuu’s magical expertise and often seeks their input during problem-solving.

When Riddle gets flustered by his own emotions, Yuu’s soothing tone and gentle teasing help him regain composure.

Yuu and Leona

Leona pretends not to care about Yuu’s celestial powers, but he’s low-key fascinated by their ability to “outshine the sun.”

Yuu isn’t intimidated by Leona’s gruff nature and often challenges him with dry humor, which earns his grudging respect.

They bond over their shared appreciation for naps—Yuu prefers lounging under the stars while Leona enjoys the warmth of the sun.

Leona sometimes asks Yuu to use their magic to light up dark caves or assist in “lazy” strategies which is usually distracting Cheka from him, so he can nap more.

Yuu and Azul

Azul is captivated by Yuu’s cosmic magic and immediately tries to strike a deal to learn more about it. Yuu, however, can see through his schemes and politely declines.

Yuu finds Azul’s business acumen impressive but occasionally teases him about his dramatic tendencies.

Azul is slightly envious of Yuu’s effortless charm but grows to respect their honesty and kindness.

Yuu occasionally partners with Jade and Floyd to “playfully keep Azul humble.”

Yuu and Kalim

Kalim is immediately drawn to Yuu’s sparkly aesthetic and cheerful personality, often calling them a “walking shooting star.”

Yuu appreciates Kalim’s infectious positivity and helps him channel his energy into meaningful endeavors.

They enjoy flying together—Kalim on his magic carpet and Yuu with their celestial wings—racing through the skies and laughing the entire time.

Yuu often acts as a calming influence during Kalim’s more party life moments, making him feel safe and understood.

Yuu and Vil

Vil initially judges Yuu’s celestial aesthetic with a critical eye but ultimately declares them a “radiant masterpiece of the cosmos.” which Yuu deems as high praise.

Yuu admires Vil’s confidence and discipline, often seeking his advice on presentation and poise.

Vil finds Yuu’s ethereal nature mesmerizing but occasionally lectures them on the importance of grounded beauty as well.

They bond over their shared pursuit of perfection, often inspiring each other to balance inner and outer beauty.

Yuu and Idia

Idia is equal parts fascinated and intimidated by Yuu’s celestial aura, describing them as “an RPG boss character with maxed-out charisma stats.”

Yuu gently encourages Idia to step out of his comfort zone, though they’re patient and never push him too far.

Idia loves discussing space exploration and futuristic tech with Yuu, who enjoys listening to his enthusiastic ramblings.

Yuu’s dreamy personality helps Idia feel less isolated, though he often mutters, “This is way too anime” under his breath.

Yuu and Malleus

Malleus is enchanted by Yuu’s celestial powers, finding them reminiscent of ancient myths and legends.

Yuu enjoys Malleus’s thoughtful nature and often invites him to stargaze, teaching him about the constellations of Astralis.

Their bond is built on mutual respect and curiosity, with Malleus sharing fae lore in exchange for Yuu's stories of Astralis lore.

Yuu gently teases Malleus about his tendency to walk around at night, always managing to coax a rare smile from him.

[homestuckreplay]

Pagecount: Over 900

(page 886-902)

With 17 pages, 11/22/2009 is the longest Homestuck update by number of pages to date. It contains not one but TWO huge story developments: the ominous planet and the Peregrine Mendicant.

Ominous Planet

Just as WV told us, the ominous planet is bright purple and lies ‘beyond an impenetrable veil of darkness’ (p.704/886).

Dad is here!! I think a lot of the sudden character transitions in Homestuck actually make sense – we went from John thinking about going into his dad’s room, over to Dad himself. He barely appeared in Act 2, getting kidnapped by the imps at the start and breaking out of his trick handcuffs at the end, and now he easily bests them. Clowning is a physically demanding pursuit so Dad must be well in shape beneath the business clothes, because he launches one imp right through the wall.

We also meet an imp security guard (?) who’s wearing similar but more intricate harlequin gear.

They’re watching Dad fight the imps and somehow also watching John battle the ogres, through a pair of windows similar in design to ‘one of [Jade’s] GRANDPA'S more mysterious inventions’ (p.790), the freestanding window on Jade’s gadget table. There is apparently no end to the number of people watching John.

He looks kind of familiar. On page 833, we’re introduced to the full Midnight Crew as the sky switches from blue to bright purple. And comparing these face shapes and designs side by side, these two characters feel like they could have something to do with each other. They’re both really angry, as Spades Slick’s answer to everything is violence, and this new guy refers to the other imps, John and Dad, or both as ‘graveyard stuffers’ (p.891). It’s the only text we get in relation to the character. The narrator apparently has nothing to add and no witty comment on that thought of theirs. There’s then a quick cut where seeing the next page title ‘You are now…’ suggests that we’re about to become this guy, but we instead suddenly become-

Peregrine Mendicant

THE MAIL HAS ARRIVED. Mail, packages and deliveries are a recurring motif – there have been several important colorful packages, several envelopes containing discs, and now there is a letter to Dr. David Brinner, ATTN: SERIOUS BUSINESS. Serious Business is of course the messaging client that Dad uses to keep in touch with his troupe, and we just returned to Dad in the story, so is this finally the moment that wellPressedAttire or officeurchin1280 take their starring role in the narrative? It’s definitely a person in John’s neighborhood but not Dad himself, as we’ve seen the insides of the Egbert mailbox.

PM’s mail based tirade (p.894-896) is of course reminiscent of WV’s mayoral calling (p.686) and PM’s adoption of the hat is just like WV making their sash. So there’s something to say about these chess pieces arriving at these Skaian bunkers and immediately adopting an institution of society as critically important. Both PM and WV’s monologues read as very idealistic, imagining these overly simplistic societies that function like textbook diagrams, as though they know about these things from books similar to WV’s Human Etiquette tome and have never been part of an actual human society. Comparing the two, WV’s monologue feels more peaceful, as it’s focused on everyone getting along, mutual respect, civility and a kind leader. PM talks of soldiers, a crusade, defenders and hope among the ashes; it’s far more violent and adventurous, and feels more grounded in harsh realities even while it maybe overestimates the mail’s capability.

Which is not to criticize the mail or PM’s speech, because I think they’re both great. I agree that mail is very important, highly underappreciated, and I think it’s beautiful to explore an empty wasteland and to think ‘if there are any people left here, I need to make sure they can communicate with each other’.

Looking stylish in their new hat, PM loads their terminal and tries to greet Jade the same way WV commanded John. Jade is already covered by a lot of green static, but it appears to be snowing where she is, with flakes and drifts behind her. Which is weird in itself, because Jade is close enough to the equator that a quick search suggests it wouldn’t snow in her area no matter the time of year, especially not with the geothermal power near her house. But it gets weirder, because when John resisted a command he just felt frustrated and got a headache as he tried to ignore a weird voice in his head. When Jade resists a command, she apparently blows up the command station with lightning that she transmits through time and space. Yet another way that Jade is weirder and more powerful than the other characters.

> PM: Sacrifice yourself to save the mail.

[vampire-rodeo]

d’y’all ever have that one friend that lowkey you hate and lowkey you love. can’t go a week without infuriating each other but also yall are the only people who can truly relate to one another and say things that the other has been trying to put into words their whole life. sometimes getting so close and feel so connected that in a romance-centered society it almost feels like a romantic crush, even if it’s just a non-romantic magnetic pull to each other, you almost convence yourself you like the other person… just to go back to hating them other ten more minutes later. sometimes getting so close to actually quite literally blocking each other. toxic yuri cycle of death and rebirth. stuck together only by mutual friends that can’t know how much y’all secretly despise one another? and even then, will never understand how much y’all understand each other?

yeah i don’t have that either but Spock and McCoy do and I think that’s the basis of their relationship.

[fatedroses]

Two tanks without their emotional support healers.

[httpserb]

How do I explain that I physically can't ship Hinata with other ppl bc he is such a bright cherry person and gets along with others naturally I refuse to see him with anyone other than kags in comparison of kags not getting along with ppl naturally causing complex relationships which are more interesting than any other hinata ship that isn't kghn

[cocoabubbelle-newblog]

The day Kitty finds out Scott and Rogue finally got together as a romantic couple:

[batsplat]

wait, is there a dovi/jorge feud???? i didn't know this!! also thank you so much for all you do for this community ❤️

not the only ask I've gotten about this and... look, rather than doing a proper write up that would take forever, I'm just gonna give my top ten fun... facts? bits of trivia. tidbits related to the two of them. quite long tidbits, on second glance. the highlight reel, if you will

(1) that time andrea dovizioso made 14 year old jorge lorenzo cry

the two of them already raced each other before the start of their grand prix careers, competing for the first time in 2001 in the cev when dovi was around 15 and jorge around 14. in riveras tobia's biography, here's jorge talking about their first fight:

I led the way at the start and Dovizioso and I escaped. It was our first head-to-head encounter, the first time we raced each other. My dad had heard that Dovi was a really clever rider and he warned me before the race. But just like in 1998 at Jerez, with Olive, I acted like a dummy and pushed for the whole race. I kept looking behind me to see the bastard still there! It was impossible to shake him off, he was watching me the whole race until the last lap. Three comers from the end I could hear his engine getting closer and I saw his shadow to my left, but he didn't come past. I thought to myself "This guy is going to try something in a second!" I decided I had to on a tighter line and close the door. Sure enough, Dovi went wider through that comer and then dived up the inside. I didn't close the door in time and tried to get in his slipstream, desperately hoping I could get him the next corner, but I ran wide and he won. I came back in tears, I didn't even want to go to the podium, I felt so cheated. I'd been on the limit for the whole race and I felt like I deserved the win more than he did.

so that's a nice and positive start! there's something charming about how even fifteen year old dovi was an absolute menace on last laps

also about that race:

'Jorge beat Dovi in Braga but in the previous race at Most, what a tantrum!' recalls Juanito, laughing. 'He didn't even want to go to the podium, he was crying like a baby! I can still see Dani (Antatriain) talking to him, trying to convince him. In the end he went but he didn't want to look at anybody.'

(2) the photo finish

in 2004, they were rivals in 125cc - a year in which dovi claimed the title and jorge was p4 in the standings. in the very first grand prix ever at the lusail circuit (pretty eventful weekend, you have to say), jorge and dovi crossed the line at the exact same moment

(3) dovi's top three favourite career win

dovi and jorge progressed through the categories at the exact same rate, and after their 125cc rivalry they continued fighting in 250cc. they were title rivals in both 2006 and 2007, with jorge's aprilia winning out both times against dovi's underpowered honda. (the general pattern was that dovi clawed back a bunch of points from jorge in the wet - jorge, with perhaps the exception of a few years in the premier class until around 2013, has never been much of a wet weather racers, while it's always been one of dovi's strongest traits.) for dovi's 300th career start in 2019, he was asked what his top three wins were - and one of his picks was from way back when in 2007

I'd recommend the race! which... well, I did in the race rec post - and I can only reiterate that these two kids do not acknowledge each other, not good vibes at all

(4) jorge's thoughts on young dovi from 2008

Jorge has a lot of respect for Andrea Dovizioso and feels that his two 250cc world titles have even more prestige because he had to beat the Italian to win them. 'You wouldn't label Dovizioso as fast, particularly, but he's much faster than he looks. He doesn't set many pole positions but he is always up front in a race, fighting to win. He is very intelligent and you can't trust him an inch on the last lap. He has been faithful to Honda, he has great belief in them. His negative side is that he tends to play the victim too much. He'll say that if his bike had a better engine or if it was a bit faster he would win. He's even said that if he was on the same bike as me he'd give me a hiding. I think he looks for excuses too often sometimes, but as a rider and a person I don't have a bad word to say about him.'

some dovi traits read as very familiar, from how he's a better racer than qualifier to the intelligence to the last lap prowess. as for jorge saying dovi plays victim too much? well

also this:

ER: Don't you think that Dovizioso wanted to be World Champion too in 2006 and 2007? Don't you think he gave everything to achieve it? JL: He will think he gave his maximum but he will be lying to himself because nobody does that. Nobody gets close to their maximum, not even me. He will think that he didn't win because he was riding a Honda. There are very few sportsmen who will say, I deserve what happened to me and there are no excuses. I didn't know how to do any better and I've done things wrong.' That is the only way to be the best, the only way. People who make excuses don't get to the top. I know riders who haven't made it for just that reason.

plus ça change

(5) jorge's thoughts on young dovi from 2018

when they were doing their thing as ducati teammates (bickering), here is one of the things jorge said about dovi:

dovi's been trying to undermine jorge's morale his WHOLE career... even when they were but teenagers... love it when you can really tell someone's been sitting on something for over a decade

(6) "also lorenzo is not my friend"

both of them moved up to motogp in 2008, jorge with factory yamaha and dovi with satellite honda. dovi had a very strong rookie season and finished in p5, only sixteen points behind jorge in p4 (who after a promising first few races had spent a lot of time that season crashing). after that, their fortunes diverged. dovi did not have a particularly happy time in the factory honda team and needed to do some shrewd negotiating to be retained by them for 2011 in that three-man squad, while jorge of course won the championship in 2010

here's a deep cut from 2011, a season where much of the excitement and drama was caused by marco simoncelli alone. jorge had exchanged tense words with sic in estoril, one race before simoncelli was responsible for a crash where dani broke his collarbone. the crash and sic's subsequent penalty meant that the three-way fight between jorge, dovi and valentino became one for the podium, with dovi and valentino eventually grabbing the two remaining spots behind casey. but during the race, jorge had executed a... questionable manoeuvre on dovi, one that did have some similarities to the sic/dani incident. given jorge's strong previous comments on racing standards, unsurprisingly the journalists pounced on this incident in the post-race presser and ask the podium sitters about it. here is the clip:

in this clip, dovi essentially says it was a dangerous move from jorge, but he wasn't sure what jorge's intent had been and he needs to watch the footage again. valentino (who had been the most outspokenly critical of sic of the three of them earlier in the presser) takes the opportunity presented to him to have a bit of a potshot at jorge. he says that dovi doesn't have the best relationship with sic but jorge had done something pretty similar in the race... at which point dovi goes "also lorenzo is not my friend"

which, you know. not exactly a major incident, but I find it very charming dovi felt the need to clarify that, actually, he doesn't like either of them. valentino also adds that by jorge's own standards, surely he too should have gotten a penalty. not exactly a meeting of jorge's biggest fans hm

(7) mapping eight-gate

well I can't leave it out, can I

so in 2017 jorge switches from yamaha to ducati and does not have a great time of it. a lot of weekends, he's just too slow, other times he shoots to the front of a race at the start (typically not great news for the rest of the field in his yamaha days) and then chews up his tyres before gradually dropping like a stone back through the field. at some point that year it became a bit of a running gag - especially when you saw he was the only big name to be picking a soft tyre and just went... buddy we ALL know how this is gonna end....

while this was happening, his teammate dovi was for the first time in his premier class career in championship contention. an extremely close title fight throughout the year with five protagonists until pretty late in the season, it eventually went to a title decider in valencia between dovi and marc. you know, the kind of year where every point counts. the race where marc put a bit of daylight between himself and dovi was phillip island, with marc winning a great dogfight out front while dovi had a bit of a horror show of a weekend. this meant that a lot would have to go right for dovi to have a chance of still winning the title... and sepang was already a match point race for marc

ducati had not won a championship since their 2007 title, courtesy of one casey stoner. after that year, their bike became steadily less competitive every season, reaching a nadir around the 2011-13-ish period. so by the time 2017 rolled around, they wanted this so so badly - even if they wouldn't have expected dovi to lead the charge. dovi had only narrowly beaten out iannone in the 'who's going to be fired for our shiny new lorenzo hire' contest of 2016, and really it was supposed to be jorge who was carrying ducati's dreams on his shoulders. but, never mind, they were throwing everything behind dovi now... no stone left unturned

which brings us, of course, to the subject of team orders. this discourse really took off at the penultimate race of the season at sepang, but was already brewing before that - and in phillip island, satellite ducati rider redding had been told early in the race to let dovi past

here from marc at sepang:

dovi had been in great form all weekend at sepang - and with his wet weather prowess being what it was, really there shouldn't have been any need for team orders at all. but he got a sluggish start, and the race unfolded from there... until eventually jorge was in first, dovi was in second and marc in fourth. in those positions, marc would have clinched the title there

and then, jorge got a message on his dashboard. suggested mapping: mapping 8. pit boards and dashboards and all sorts of boards will feature various codes during races, most of them completely innocuous - but of course they are a healthy source of all sorts of conspiracies. the timing of this one was certainly... notable, and speculation immediately started about how it might be a way of telling jorge that he should swap positions with dovi

jorge didn't end up letting dovi pass - it is questionable whether he really would have done so with what would have been his first ducati win on the line. in the end, he made a mistake that let dovi through so that dovi claimed the win anyway, keeping himself in mathematical contention in valencia. and jorge did say afterwards he was keeping dovi's title hopes in mind, kind of

jorge also said he hadn't gotten any message indicating team orders, and of course nobody at ducati confirmed that mapping eight did have anything to do with team orders

for what it's worth, this is what dovi said about their relationship at this stage:

lovely! let's see what the vibes are like a few months later

anyway, onto valencia. this race was pretty boring despite being a title decider, but the jorge/dovi bits were just unequivocally the weekend's most enjoyable aspect and rather nicely spiced up the whole thing. dovi's chances were always slim going in, given he'd have to win the race and marc would have to barely get any points at all... but still, you never know, right? marc could always crash (narrator: he did almost crash). jorge plays coy early in the weekend about the whole 'helping dovi out thing', and basically just started putting in place...? ... very specific conditions...? under which he'd help:

so during the actual race, dovi got stuck behind jorge in p5, with marc ahead of both of them. valencia is traditionally not a fantastic track to overtake at... so even if dovi had been faster, it's not like he'd have an easy time clearing jorge and cracking on. but they were beginning to drift further away from dani in p3 as ducati watched on, increasingly unamused by what was happening - and the tv cameras were of course kind enough to repeatedly show the ducati box looking deeply unamused. again, they went for the good old mapping eight message, which, hey, that could mean anything! they sure did keep showing it to jorge though, almost like he wasn't paying attention to it

eventually, they abandon all subtlety and go for a pit board message that does just straight-up tell jorge to swap positions. jorge kept ignoring the messages, lap after lap, and he never ended up letting dovi past. eventually they both crashed and marc claimed the title with a p3 finish, so it wouldn't have mattered anyway, but... still. the feeling was that this might things rather awkward inside of ducati

publicly, ducati was extremely keen to smooth over the whole controversy, saying they totally weren't mad at jorge blatantly ignoring team orders. jorge had, after all, explained to them (and the media, repeatedly) that he had totally been intending to help dovi by dragging him closer to dani

Giving his take on events, Lorenzo acknowledged that he ignored Ducati’s instruction because he felt Dovizioso’s chances would be boosted by having him directly ahead. “Even looking at this [dashboard] suggestion, I keep pushing until the end, because I knew it was the best thing for me, for Ducati and for Dovi,” said Lorenzo. “I helped him to improve his pace by one or two tenths, to be as close as possible to the first group. My intention was, and it was the case, that we arrive at the first group. If he had the option to win, I would have gone wide and let him pass. But unfortunately it was not like that. Maybe in some corners Dovi was close and I slow down a little bit his pace, but in general terms, having my wheel in front of him made him improve slightly his pace. I helped him stayed closer to the front group. “I knew Dovi was struggling, I knew his pace during all the weekend, and I knew he was making the best pace of the weekend just in the race. It was [because of the] help from my wheel. I’m happy because I was not wrong. If I was wrong and slowing him, I would be very sorry. But it’s not like that, my feeling was true.”

which, you know. is it really that easy to tell how much faster you are than someone who's sitting on your rear tyre? who's to say. dovi did certainly seem rather keen to get past

anyhow, of course there were plenty of fun dramatics post-race:

'our rider ignored team suggestions not team orders' is a great line, fairs. there's plenty more of this from ducati, some excellent spin doctoring - and dovi was extremely magnanimous about what had happened:

the whole thing was pretty undignified from all non-dovi parties, but it was also very funny so who's to say if it was bad or not

(8) runner-up-gate

let's check in on them in 2018, the second and ultimately last year in which they were teammates. remember that 'undermining morale' quote from above? those are from early 2018, after dovi says he wouldn't be surprised to see jorge elsewhere the following season. so, once jorge has complained that dovi had been trying to put him down his entire career, comes this:

so that's something. jorge, dovi and dani have a three-in-one crash in jerez, after which some fingers are pointed but it all remains fairly civil, and a bit later dovi says that jorge's approach doesn't work at ducati:

by the summer break, jorge's results had gotten better, but it was already too late to save the relationship with ducati and they parted ways. anyway, here's dovi and jorge having another go at it:

And while a rough patch for Dovizioso coupled with breakthrough back-to-back wins for Lorenzo in Mugello and Barcelona have now left the pair just three points apart in the standings, Dovizioso refused to back down from his claim when speaking to Spanish sports daily Marca ahead of the upcoming Brno race. “He’s won two races,” Dovizioso said. “Winning two races does not solve the problem of a year and a half. Lorenzo was not signed to win two races. Therefore I do not change my mind.” When the comments were put to Lorenzo, the three-time champion offered an ardent retort, stating that Dovizioso's rhetoric was proof of the claim he'd made back in April. “I'm a bit fed up with this situation, mainly because when I had trouble and he was winning, I was down there applauding,” Lorenzo told Spanish broadcaster Movistar. “What I said in Argentina - and the comments caused a big surprise - you can see that I was right. “He tried to undermine me, or downplay what I achieve or just attack me. As you can see, I wasn't lying. He's still doing it and now he says my method is not good, according to him.” Lorenzo intimated that Dovizioso was in no position to criticise him, as the Italian could do no better than runner-up to Marc Marquez in a 'perfect' 2017 season. He said: “I think my method has not worked too bad in my career. I've won three MotoGP titles and have 46 wins.” “In my second year in Ducati I'm usually faster than him, but maybe I should look at his method closer if in his best season, with everything going perfectly, he was second. Otherwise he's fourth or seventh usually. I'd tell him to leave me to go my way and to focus on his own and everything will be better, because when you have an angry Lorenzo it's usually worse for you.” 

fair to say that by this point the pretence at civility has mostly been dropped. I'm rather fond of the "lorenzo was not signed to win two races" line, though "when you have an angry lorenzo it's usually worse for you" is also really strong stuff. dovi tries to restore a little bit of peace:

Responding in turn to Lorenzo's tirade, Dovizioso sought to play down the conflict. “Jorge has his ideas and I think they are based on particular things. I don't think like him, but it's not a problem,” he told Movistar. “Everybody creates their own ideas based on what they see and how they live. “I don't think he has everything clear in his head about what's happened, but we continue the relationship that we started last year with respect, there's no particular problem. If he thinks this way, that's his problem."

so basically the classic 'idk what he's on about but it's not my problem' approach to attempting to defuse feuds

(9) twitter-gate

there's a few more on-track battles where it's nicely obvious how badly they want to beat each other, with jorge beating marc just ahead of dovi in austria and then dovi beating jorge in brno. jorge's season is increasingly derailed by injuries, which sets the stage for their next big spat:

The row was sparked by Dovizioso's comments to Sky Italia after qualifying at Sepang on Saturday, as he was asked what he thought of Lorenzo having to pull out of the Malaysian GP weekend with injury. "I don't know the details, I don't want to get into this, it's a bit of a strange situation," said Dovizioso."It happens often in Ducati or to certain riders, but I don't understand the details and I don't want to get into it and give my opinion." When it was put to him he was offering 'cryptic words', he added: "I leave things there, it's not my problem."

pretty vague, yeah. but anyway, I'm sure jorge had a proportionate response to this

Dovizioso's comments prompted a series of irate posts from Lorenzo on Twitter, with his first reaction being "Thank you very much @AndreaDovizioso! You are a real gentleman!". In his next post, he went on to call Dovizioso "an exemplary teammate", adding: "You applaud him under the podium when he wins and then... (That's right, he does not give his opinion, it's not his problem)." After that, Lorenzo labelled Dovizioso "envious" and described him as "a world champion... in 125cc."

the podium thing really bothered him, don't you think. their ducati in-fighting follows that general pattern where dovi says something... a little shady, a little ambiguous, where his intentions aren't entirely obvious... at which point jorge goes all in at fighting back and has a go at dovi - often not as much for what dovi is actually saying, but what jorge thinks dovi is implying. which is based on his understanding of dovi, the image of dovi he's built up in his head over the years, so that he is... predisposed to think ill of the intentions of the 'intelligent' dovi who always knows exactly what he's saying

again, dovi tried to downplay the argument, while simultaneously not exhibiting much patience for jorge's stance:

After the Malaysian GP, Dovizioso was asked about Lorenzo's responses to his comments, and the Italian accused his teammate of reading too much into headlines. He said: “Why should I talk to Lorenzo? I do not waste time on these things. He makes the usual mistake of giving too much importance to what is written, even without the context. "I have not pointed my finger at anyone and I have no problem with Jorge."

if I were ducati, I probably would've let the whole thing blow over given jorge was off soon anyway. but they decided the whole thing was so bad they had to organise a peace summit

Asked about the situation, Ducati sporting director Paolo Ciabatti admitted to Motorsport.com that the Bologna marque has already planned to sit its two riders on Tuesday in Milan to make it clear what its priorities are. Ciabatti said: “It is clear that the interests of Ducati come before personal problems between riders. On Tuesday we will be together in Milan, for the EICMA [motorcycle show] and we have in mind to spend half an hour to sit and talk to Jorge and Andrea. "We want to avoid similar things to what happened last weekend. "I understand that these kinds of situations can happen. Sometimes riders get nervous during a Grand Prix weekend and on a rainy day, with tricky conditions, sometimes they say things they shouldn’t have said."

god knows how that turned out

(10) wow, you guys aren't gonna let this go, huh

late 2020 and jorge's career is already over, while dovi's looks like it will be... paused, at the very least. which is always a good time to check in with riders on how they feel about their rivals - if they're still being nasty you know that shit was personal. from december:

some quality petty material here. "I can't understand his somewhat peculiar mind" vs "he was envious of me since 250cc, but I wanted to give our relationship a chance". note too jorge talking again about how generous he had been in the face of dovi's 2017 successes, and how he feels like this was not reciprocated at all. jorge's complaints don't stop there:

merry christmas!

not the only rider jorge has beefed with post-retirement, but compare and contrast with how he really hasn't been doing any of that with some of his biggest career rivals. valentino, marc, dani - sure, he still talks about the controversies he's had with them pretty regularly (to put it lightly), and he's hardly free of complaints... but mostly it's a distinctly nostalgic tone he's adopting with these guys. admittedly, it helps that none of those three have gone out of their way to say anything particularly inflammatory about jorge. still, the absolute lack of any sort of rapprochement with dovi of all people is pretty funny

bonus: that time when jorge skittled all of marc's rivals

you know how in catalunya 2019, jorge took out like? all of marc's major rivals in that era including himself in one go? with half a decade of hindsight, this was kind of hilarious, and it did also feature jorge having to eat a hell of a lot of humble pie and go to the three other blokes to apologise. anyway I have a lovingly assembled set of screenshots of all three of them emoting in their boxes after the incident, all suffering some form of an existential crisis. here is dovi contemplating the bleak realities of our brief lives on this planet:

truly one of the world's least enthusiastic waves

bonus 2: another one for old time's sake

already posted this elsewhere, but this from late 2023 made me laugh

"jorge came to ducati and thought he was going to beat everything, but in the end he didn't" uh huh

[gmarseln]

HEAR ME OUT. WENCLAIR SPIDER-MAN AU.

So we all know that Enid would obviously be Gwen, right? What if Wednesday was Venom.

And I mean this in the most enemies to lovers way possible.

[passionatememes]

extremely niche post but do you guys think daniil dankovsky and harrowhark nonagesimus would be friends or would they fucking hate each other

[decarbry]

a frequent visitor

[psychic-waffles]

do i ship them? no. do i think that them fucking would solve some problems for both of them? yes.

sorry to everyone in the heroes tag instead of any sensible meta about the parallels between them you get this

[briarmoon1015]

The league being sillies :))). Dc make them actual friends and not just coworkers I dare you