#and then they get mutual respect for each other

[tmnt-ocxcanon-comp]

TMNT OCxCanon Comp Round 3

Learn more under the cut!

Sweets

@buthowboutno-spamming

Mutual crush with Rise! Donatello (as of chapter 27 of ATWLP)

Everyone who has interacted with Sweets and Donnie is /convinced/ that they are in love with each other… except Sweets and Donnie. Sweets is a second year Biomedical Engineering major at Eastlaird University. Of all the places to meet Donnie, they met him at 2 am at the campus library after an attempted textbook theft and subsequent brain trauma (don’t ask). These two losers couldn’t help but get along in between the bickering and mild threats, using their respective talents to work on Rad Science Stuff^TM. So what if they share a bed sometimes? It’s… /practical/.

https://archiveofourown.org/works/43286731/chapters/108804493

art by beckerboopin!

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Niyah! :]

@sweaterrat

Shipped romantically with Donnie (mutual crush to dating💛💜)

Lemlav is your average fluffy not-so-slow- slowburn between Niyah and Donnie! Despite all odds, the two are a happy couple with a love that exceeds realities (seriously, she came from another universe)! 💛💜

I would link Portals but it’s so old.. 💀 honestly just a stroll through the #lemlav tag should be enough

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[whumporama]

Character A and B who really, really don't like each other. A is snarky, rebellious, and gets under B's skin. B is professional, more serious, and really hates A. The feeling is mutual.

They occasionally meet, but nothing ever happened. Maybe B is a high ranking officer or an investigator, and A was brought in a few times, confident and sassy, and despite a few close calls, they always got away/got released again.

Until one day, where something happens and A is actually in deep shit. B is delighted, and A gets put in jail in wherever B works. They need something from A, and A gets tortured. B isn't the one doing it, but they know it's happening.

At first, they don't care. A is still A, snarky, angry, and gives back every insult and taunt B throws at them. It's like nothing changed.

Until it does. Over time, B notices A wears down. At first, they're tired, and their insults and snark just have a tired edge to it. They often end up telling B to 'just fuck off', instead of talking to them until B leaves.

B notices, but doesn't think too much of it. But it gets worse, and they see how A's condition gets worse and worse. They're constantly covered in wounds, they've lost weight (too much weight, way too much), they stop standing up whenever B enters, instead choosing to remain seated in their cell.

This continues, until A is just curled up in the corner, head leaning against the cold stone, turned away from the bars. B taunts them, but even their voice is lacking the confidence they had before. A doesn't return it, but just tiredly snaps "just leave me alone" without looking up.

And B feels conflicted. A is their enemy. They hate A. A is annoying and a problem, and has no respect for them. And yet... this isn't A. This isn't right.

What does B do? Do they end up breaking A out? Do they try to offer them comfort? Do they do nothing? Try to talk to their superiors to get A out?

[userautumn]

You are always 100% right and valid btw. Because like buck and Tommy are broken up, but you also have several interviews released today where Ryan calls Buck and Eddie “brothers” and where Oliver explicitly says Eddie is straight so they will most likely continue to be just friends. So if it wasn’t for Buddie, what was the point in throwing away a relationship the audience was actually behind??

Yeah, this has always been my problem with the idea of Buck and Tommy breaking up and, now that it's happened, I can finally unload all my thoughts.

Listen, my Buddie mutuals are very assured that Buck and Eddie will get together and have this lush and beautiful arc where they settle into a relationship and feel out the kinks in their dynamic and really blend together, and I respect that. I would love to see that happen. But I don't have that same confidence. Don't get me wrong, I DO think Buck and Eddie will probably get together, I just don't think it's going to happen until the last episode of the last season in a way that's more reminiscent of Johnlock "canon" (for those who did not watch BBC Sherlock: John and Sherlock continued to live together and raise John's daughter, but this was revealed in a montage without ever actually seeing them get together, or confirm that they were in a romantic relationship) than anything.

Why? Well, because it's easier to tease your audience than it is to follow through.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Tim is teasing the fandom in a malicious way, and—if nothing else—I know he is very aware of what these boys and the implication of their relationship means to people. 9-1-1 has always handled their relationship with a particular gravitas, and I don't see that changing now. But Tim has been writing Buck and Eddie for years. He knows what gets people going, he knows what this fandom likes to see, and what they'll read into. So why would he rush into making them "endgame," especially if he knows he already wants to take them in that direction? He has no incentive to make it happen Right Now because everyone will lap up what he puts out anyway.

And I get it, because I do love Buck and Eddie's relationship. I love the way they interact with each other and, yes, I will lap up any scene between them. But that's the part I find so draining too. I'm going to be honest, I've never liked a "will-they-won't-they" couple. As a personal preference, I've always liked to have a clear vision of a story's trajectory when I go into it. That's how I write, and that's what I gravitate toward in fiction. So the idea of going through any number of love interests until Buck and Eddie are "ready for each other" (so sick of that phrase. sob.) is literally... exhausting to me, and not in a fun way. Because this is a loop that could theoretically continue on, and on, and on, until whenever the powers that be decide enough is enough.

Sure, Eddie is happy and free now. Great. But he still doesn't know he's Queer. What happens when he does realize that? Does he need to date a guy first in order to be "ready" for Buck? Similarly (because their romantic arcs always run parallel to each other), when Buck fucks and sucks his way through Los Angeles, does he stumble upon a hot girl/guy and date her/him until Eddie's "ready" for him? How many times, exactly, am I going to sit through another love interest until they're on the same page after, by my count, three false starts? You know?

I'm obviously along for the ride. Always have been, always will be, and I fought too hard over the summer to maintain my love for these boys and their relationship to let it waste away now. But I desperately, desperately need Tim to give me something substantial that CLEARLY, and EXPLICITLY indicates IMMEDIATE strides toward ROMANTIC Buddie Canon. And I mean crystal clear. Not "building a thousand words of meta off a single line/moment" clear. Not "this look probably definitely means Eddie was thinking about ripping Buck's clothes off" clear. I mean, I want it so damn clear, a sixty-five year old grandpa with cataracts can see it.

Otherwise I'm just going to get really annoyed.

[meeks-just-wants-to-scroll]

hi 🐊 since youre asking for them ^-^ .

im having a lot of thoughts about the micah/bill/javier dynamics and also the ways bill and javier almost seem to reflect the main two sides of micah we see (quiet, brooding, thoughtful, and terrifying vs impulsive, boistrous, rowdy, and scary) and how different their relationships with micah are, but also how they both come together when they soend time as a trio ^-^ id love to hear your thoughts on all this :)

Thank you!! I am happy the F of a Feather triad got you thinking about this.

Agreed, interesting how Javier and Bill seem so far apart in personality but somehow have a common tie between Micah.

I don’t actually have a whole lot to say… I work best when I have other fan works to build off of but so many drawings and fan fics go shallow with anything relating to the triad or even the pairs that make up the triad. The most that comes to my head is the same pitch I’ve said in almost every post relating to them.

- but to try and make something worth reading… -

Javier and bill pairing with Micah could come from Micah either matching the energy or balancing the energy of the other.

—

Micah and Javier:

I can see Javier and Micah having a nice night together by accidentally sharing quality time together: parallel play with Micah shining his weapons and Javier practicing his guitar.

I notice in game that Javier sometimes stop playing if arthur approaches, which makes me think Javier is a bit reserved and him letting people be around him while he does something is special.

Micah tries his hardest to ignore others when he is at the campfire shining his weapons, but he secretly dislikes having other people around him.

And so the both of them are at the campfire and are bemused to realize they don’t mind the other’s presence: Micah doesn’t dislike the guitar plucking, and Javier doesn’t mind the flashes of motion as Micah aims and fires his empty revolver.

…

But micah and Javier could also be boisterous dorks I am suuure. Javier is in his 20’s, so is Charles. As much as the fandom likes to treat them as perfect, neither man is this flawless chill man who never does wrong and never makes brash decisions. Give micah and Javier some alcohol and I am sure both will be thrown in a jail cell like the Strawberry situation with Micah and Lenny.

I wanna see more missions with Micah and Javier and what their dynamic would be. Javier is very much a back-up gunman, but he can lead his own smaller missions. He can do stuff solo but benefits from having someone with more seniority by his side. Micah is not higher ranked than him in the gang, but he has a longer life of gunman expertise that can prove helpful.

Micah can cook up one hell of a plan for things. His plans leave too much “I have my guns, I have you, what other planning do we need?” for Javier’s comfort, hence how he can flesh out Micah’s plan. Perhaps it feels less like one is nodding the other around and trampling each other’s egos since both of them sculpted the plan.

So basically they should get tipsy and decide to follow through on a lead for money together. Micah prefers stagecoach robberies (for the thrill!), Javier likes ambush missions. I am sure if Javier could convince Micah, he too could enjoy ambush missions. Or maybe he’d see it as too easy, like shooting fish in a bucket.

—

Micah and Bill:

Micah and Bill are troublesome together but they can actually be amicable???? Wow???

Their two of them can definitely be rough. They will literally get in a fist fight if not stopped, tho it’s rare micah actually initiates a fist fight he doesn’t see himself winning. They draw out the worst in each other. They argue and pick at each other because in the pecking order of the gang, Micah is a rookie and there is less push back for Micah to prod at a gang member who is already held in low respects.

But overall they’re actually quite chill with each other. As chill as they can be. They have that silent mutual destruction that closeted gay men have.

They can share a moment where it’s just the two of them awake late at night and neither has to say a word. Micah doesn’t like people talking to him late at night, and Bill always fumbles over his words when he is tired (regardless of if he is drunk or not).

In the cold, Bill and Micah can stand next to each other and not immediately start drawing blood. They can just exist in a space and not see it as a competition.

They can go on missions and return with no bullet holes in their bodies, sometimes they even return with cash or watches! They can work, but they work best when they have a third person to keep the peace in case anything goes wrong. Who is a pretty level-headed guy who can pull his own? Wink wink: Javier.

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Woof ngl I don’t know where I was going with this all. I’ve been scatter brained and chipping away at answering your asks.

I am glad you’re interested in F of a Feather!

[oyeixcher]

Every OyeiCher scene (48 ¦ ??) 

O: "Alright, everyone. Thank you so much for coming to our wedding as our honoured guests today. Finally, we have the opportunity to be legally married with marriage equality." All: "Cheers!" C: "Well I also want to thank you for giving me the chance to be part of your family and also for treating me with respect. In fact, we've been living together for a long time, but getting married is a different kind of excitement. It feels like the transition from the end of being boyfriends to the beginning of a new journey as life partners. It hasn't been easy for us at all. It has required a lot of mutual understanding to be in each other's lives. Whether it was coincidence or destiny, I'm grateful for the chances that brought us together. We might have started off with just sex, a no-strings-attached relationship. But before we knew it, love had filled every part of our relationship. I don't know what the future holds, but I'm confident that as long as we remain committed and believe in each other, love will guide us through everything." All: "Cheers!"

[aventurineswife]

Could you do Reader x Aventurine where there are college rivals, reader always a top student not until Aventurine arrived and took reader 1st place and they have become the 2nd place, they always bickering who's the best but they never cross any line

One day reader got sick, Aventurine was worried because he hadn't seen them for 2 days so he decided to pay them a visit and found out reader had a high fever so he rushed out to buy a medicine for reader until now they have become close but still have those rivalry banter, rather more playful now

Kinda like rival to lover but they're like mutual pining until both of them say something

Closer by Competition

Summary: In college, you and Aventurine are fierce rivals, constantly competing for the top spot in your program. Aventurine’s unexpected arrival pushes you down to second place, sparking a lively competition filled with witty banter and mutual respect. But when you fall sick, Aventurine’s concern leads him to visit and care for you, marking a shift in your relationship. Slowly, your rivalry evolves into something warmer, as you both realize that perhaps you’re better together than in constant competition.

Tags: College Rivals to Lovers, Mutual Pining, Slow Burn, Rivalry with Affection, Fluff, Sickfic, Academic Competition, Banter, Playful Rivalry, Light Angst with a Happy Ending

Warnings: Mild language (playful insults and teasing), Brief mention of illness and fever

The rivalry between you and Aventurine began the moment he transferred into your program. You'd always been the top student, basking in the quiet satisfaction of watching your scores inch higher than anyone else's. But then he arrived—Aventurine, the guy with sandy-blond hair, sharp magenta and cyan eyes, and that ever-present confident smile that made your blood simmer. From the first test he aced, taking your spot at the top, to the last debate he won by the narrowest of margins, he had become your academic nemesis.

You were both locked in this unspoken battle, constantly throwing playful, biting remarks at each other in the lecture hall, or subtly trying to outdo each other with project presentations that dazzled the professors. But there was a line, one neither of you ever crossed—despite the bickering, there was an unspoken respect between you. And maybe… just maybe… a spark.

Then came a week where you weren't around to throw the usual quips his way. Aventurine noticed your absence. Two days passed without your witty retorts or side-eyed glares across the classroom, and he found himself… worried. The idea that something might actually be wrong bothered him in a way he didn’t expect.

Without a second thought, he managed to get your address from a mutual friend and decided to visit. When he knocked, your groggy, barely coherent voice from inside told him all he needed to know. He pushed the door open to find you sprawled on your bed, looking paler than he’d ever seen you.

"[Name]," he said, worry clear in his usually cool tone. "Why didn’t you tell anyone you were sick?"

Your response was a half-hearted, sleepy glare, which normally might have been funny if you didn't look like you were about to pass out. Aventurine didn’t waste any time. He left your apartment and returned shortly after with fever medication, a water bottle, and a bag of snacks, a surprising softness in his gaze as he handed you the medicine.

“You know,” he said, his usual smirk making an appearance. “For someone who supposedly likes being number one, you don’t seem very committed to staying alive.”

You rolled your eyes weakly, the smallest smile tugging at your lips. “Coming from the guy who’s obsessed with competition. Figures you'd be here just to make sure I get back to competing with you.”

He chuckled, brushing a stray hair off your forehead. “I wouldn’t want my only worthy rival giving up that easily.”

From that day, something changed between you two. Your exchanges softened, though the rivalry remained. You’d still argue over who got the higher test score, whose presentation dazzled more, but now your banter was laced with a new warmth. He’d check in on you more often, and you found yourself doing the same, wondering if he’d eaten lunch, if he’d stayed up too late cramming. It wasn’t long before people around campus began to notice how your rivalry was slowly morphing into something else.

One day, after yet another mock argument about a recent exam score, Aventurine grinned and leaned closer, his eyes dancing. “You know, I think we might make a better team than rivals.”

You felt a warmth rise in your cheeks, rolling your eyes to hide it. “Maybe. But don’t think that’s going to make me go easy on you.”

He laughed, his smile softer this time. “Good. I’d hate for it to be too easy.” And with that, your rivalry became something deeper, both of you leaning into the subtle affection that had grown between you.

[suika-suigetsu]

Quick question what are your fav Yaoi and Yuri Ships in The Narutoverse? Just curious lol

Sorry to answer your quick question with a long text, but I'm just like this... 🥹

So, since I was a kid, I never watched Naruto thinking about couples, I was never a "stan", as they say. I just loved the story and the characters.

It was only very recently, when I started to like the character Suigetsu and researched everything about him, that I saw how perfect I think his relationship with Karin is.

I say this because, as much as I like the cannon couples and defend the story of some of them, I do it more because I respect Kishimoto's decision of the ending and because I think it's cute, but I didn't research it in depth to ship it faithfully like I do with SuiKa. But I like to respect what is cannon, even if some have destroyed other ships that I liked more (but I'll never say... 😭)

I ship when I think that, based on the character's story and the context, they make a good couple.

So, here are some same-sex couples I ship (using information that I think makes them perfect for each other):

Itachi x Kisame

I never really thought about it because I'm not a fan of Itachi, but I like Kisame, so I never saw them together romantically. But I've been thinking and researching about it for a few months now, and after seeing some cute art of them, I'm even more convinced.

I think Kisame fell in love first, and like Sasuke, I don't think Itachi was emotionally mature enough to reciprocate, but as an artist, I plan on pretending that they had a lot of loving moments together and I'll draw them as soon as I have time (I already have some sketches). 🩷

Gaara x Rock Lee

I don't like shipping characters that I feel have a more "innocent" aura. Rock Lee, Jugo, Mitsuki... I see them as babies. But I like to hear everyone's opinion and, sometimes, they convince me.

I like GaaLee nowadays, even though I don't have much information for it, but I just like the idea that the two of them are single parents who share a mutual love for each other and their children, and I also think that Rock Lee's energy would make Gaara's life happy, since he has such a sad past...

Izumo x Kotetsu

I don't need to say anything, right? They've been cannon since the first chapters they appeared, that's just a fact. They're stuck together like nails and flesh, nowadays they must be living together and traveling the world on a never-ending honeymoon. 💖💖💖

A little steal on the list: Sakura x Karin

This one doesn't make any sense, I only shipped them when I was younger, I didn't care about Suigetsu and I hated Sasuke. I just wanted them to use their love for Sasuke to get closer and form a couple, and they were my favorite female characters 🥹🥹 Obviously I don't think that way anymore nowadays, but I'll still draw them together a lot just because I really like it lol.

Another little steal: SuiKarin

Haha, I know it doesn't fit here, but I just think they love each other too much and have enough experience to have tried a lot of things together. After Naruto invented the Sexy jutsu, anything is possible, right? I still want to draw SuiKarin yaoi and SuiKarin yuri... I'm looking forward to it 🫣🫣

Now, other couples that I find cute when I see them, but I don't have enough information to ship them:

Kakuzu x Hidan (I think Hidan would be easy with Kakuzu, but Kakuzu seems too shallow to be with anyone...? Although Hidan seems to be very convincing when he wants to be...), Sasori x Deidara (I'm not just talking about sexuality here, but also about feelings. If Sasori still loves his parents, he can love someone romantically, and I think it's cute to think of him with Deidara. But that said, I didn't feel any chemistry between them in the scenes where they appear together. I'm rewatching Naruto now, maybe my opinion will change, and I hope it does, because I think the art of them together is really cute...), Jiraya x Orochimaru and Tsunade (This is another steal from the list, I shipped them when I was younger, haha. I just think they're a trio that only works if the three of them are together, and if it's just two of them, it doesn't work, you know? It's a hc I've had for a long time. Unfortunately, it didn't come to fruition... In fact, I have another ship with 3 people that I think would close the anime with a flourish, but I'll never be able to say which one it is publicly... 🥹)

Just about Kiri and the Swordsmen of the Mist

I think that just like in Akatsuki, they (the Seven) must have had romances between them too. And unlike Konoha, Kirigakure doesn't seem to care so much about marriage, starting a family and things like that... In fact, I don't know if it's cannon (I don't think so), but it really struck me when I saw in the anime that one of the call girls that Jiraya went out with was married to one of the men that Jiraya captured to get information about Pain. I still think to this day "wow, the people of Kiri are so bold..." .

Anyway, thinking about Kisame's story, they even avoided that (love someone). So I think there had a lot of "quick romances", maybe with more than one person at the same time. They weren't very emotional, you know? Life was hard, just killing and missions... So relationships were just a way to de-stress. That's one of the things that made me ship ItaKisame, because I think that even though he thought that way just because he grew up among the cold population of Kiri, Kisame ended up falling in love with Itachi after knowing him more than he knew anyone else.

Spending time with companions ends up breaking the coldness, even of assassins, so I think there must have been couples who loved each other within the Seven, but I just don't have enough information to know who would end up with who. Give me information, Kishi... 😭

I'm sorry for being so annoying about ships 🥹 But I really like having evidence that makes me like the couple. There are cannon couples that I don't like at all, even though I drew them...... And there are others that I love, but like with SuiKarin, we'll never have confirmation... But since things are complicated on the internet, I prefer to keep my opinion about them to myself.

Thanks for reading. 🩷

[vampire-rodeo]

d’y’all ever have that one friend that lowkey you hate and lowkey you love. can’t go a week without infuriating each other but also yall are the only people who can truly relate to one another and say things that the other has been trying to put into words their whole life. sometimes getting so close and feel so connected that in a romance-centered society it almost feels like a romantic crush, even if it’s just a non-romantic magnetic pull to each other, you almost convence yourself you like the other person… just to go back to hating them other ten more minutes later. sometimes getting so close to actually quite literally blocking each other. toxic yuri cycle of death and rebirth. stuck together only by mutual friends that can’t know how much y’all secretly despise one another? and even then, will never understand how much y’all understand each other?

yeah i don’t have that either but Spock and McCoy do and I think that’s the basis of their relationship.

[httpserb]

How do I explain that I physically can't ship Hinata with other ppl bc he is such a bright cherry person and gets along with others naturally I refuse to see him with anyone other than kags in comparison of kags not getting along with ppl naturally causing complex relationships which are more interesting than any other hinata ship that isn't kghn

[fatedroses]

Two tanks without their emotional support healers.

[cocoabubbelle-newblog]

The day Kitty finds out Scott and Rogue finally got together as a romantic couple:

[batsplat]

wait, is there a dovi/jorge feud???? i didn't know this!! also thank you so much for all you do for this community ❤️

not the only ask I've gotten about this and... look, rather than doing a proper write up that would take forever, I'm just gonna give my top ten fun... facts? bits of trivia. tidbits related to the two of them. quite long tidbits, on second glance. the highlight reel, if you will

(1) that time andrea dovizioso made 14 year old jorge lorenzo cry

the two of them already raced each other before the start of their grand prix careers, competing for the first time in 2001 in the cev when dovi was around 15 and jorge around 14. in riveras tobia's biography, here's jorge talking about their first fight:

I led the way at the start and Dovizioso and I escaped. It was our first head-to-head encounter, the first time we raced each other. My dad had heard that Dovi was a really clever rider and he warned me before the race. But just like in 1998 at Jerez, with Olive, I acted like a dummy and pushed for the whole race. I kept looking behind me to see the bastard still there! It was impossible to shake him off, he was watching me the whole race until the last lap. Three comers from the end I could hear his engine getting closer and I saw his shadow to my left, but he didn't come past. I thought to myself "This guy is going to try something in a second!" I decided I had to on a tighter line and close the door. Sure enough, Dovi went wider through that comer and then dived up the inside. I didn't close the door in time and tried to get in his slipstream, desperately hoping I could get him the next corner, but I ran wide and he won. I came back in tears, I didn't even want to go to the podium, I felt so cheated. I'd been on the limit for the whole race and I felt like I deserved the win more than he did.

so that's a nice and positive start! there's something charming about how even fifteen year old dovi was an absolute menace on last laps

also about that race:

'Jorge beat Dovi in Braga but in the previous race at Most, what a tantrum!' recalls Juanito, laughing. 'He didn't even want to go to the podium, he was crying like a baby! I can still see Dani (Antatriain) talking to him, trying to convince him. In the end he went but he didn't want to look at anybody.'

(2) the photo finish

in 2004, they were rivals in 125cc - a year in which dovi claimed the title and jorge was p4 in the standings. in the very first grand prix ever at the lusail circuit (pretty eventful weekend, you have to say), jorge and dovi crossed the line at the exact same moment

(3) dovi's top three favourite career win

dovi and jorge progressed through the categories at the exact same rate, and after their 125cc rivalry they continued fighting in 250cc. they were title rivals in both 2006 and 2007, with jorge's aprilia winning out both times against dovi's underpowered honda. (the general pattern was that dovi clawed back a bunch of points from jorge in the wet - jorge, with perhaps the exception of a few years in the premier class until around 2013, has never been much of a wet weather racers, while it's always been one of dovi's strongest traits.) for dovi's 300th career start in 2019, he was asked what his top three wins were - and one of his picks was from way back when in 2007

I'd recommend the race! which... well, I did in the race rec post - and I can only reiterate that these two kids do not acknowledge each other, not good vibes at all

(4) jorge's thoughts on young dovi from 2008

Jorge has a lot of respect for Andrea Dovizioso and feels that his two 250cc world titles have even more prestige because he had to beat the Italian to win them. 'You wouldn't label Dovizioso as fast, particularly, but he's much faster than he looks. He doesn't set many pole positions but he is always up front in a race, fighting to win. He is very intelligent and you can't trust him an inch on the last lap. He has been faithful to Honda, he has great belief in them. His negative side is that he tends to play the victim too much. He'll say that if his bike had a better engine or if it was a bit faster he would win. He's even said that if he was on the same bike as me he'd give me a hiding. I think he looks for excuses too often sometimes, but as a rider and a person I don't have a bad word to say about him.'

some dovi traits read as very familiar, from how he's a better racer than qualifier to the intelligence to the last lap prowess. as for jorge saying dovi plays victim too much? well

also this:

ER: Don't you think that Dovizioso wanted to be World Champion too in 2006 and 2007? Don't you think he gave everything to achieve it? JL: He will think he gave his maximum but he will be lying to himself because nobody does that. Nobody gets close to their maximum, not even me. He will think that he didn't win because he was riding a Honda. There are very few sportsmen who will say, I deserve what happened to me and there are no excuses. I didn't know how to do any better and I've done things wrong.' That is the only way to be the best, the only way. People who make excuses don't get to the top. I know riders who haven't made it for just that reason.

plus ça change

(5) jorge's thoughts on young dovi from 2018

when they were doing their thing as ducati teammates (bickering), here is one of the things jorge said about dovi:

dovi's been trying to undermine jorge's morale his WHOLE career... even when they were but teenagers... love it when you can really tell someone's been sitting on something for over a decade

(6) "also lorenzo is not my friend"

both of them moved up to motogp in 2008, jorge with factory yamaha and dovi with satellite honda. dovi had a very strong rookie season and finished in p5, only sixteen points behind jorge in p4 (who after a promising first few races had spent a lot of time that season crashing). after that, their fortunes diverged. dovi did not have a particularly happy time in the factory honda team and needed to do some shrewd negotiating to be retained by them for 2011 in that three-man squad, while jorge of course won the championship in 2010

here's a deep cut from 2011, a season where much of the excitement and drama was caused by marco simoncelli alone. jorge had exchanged tense words with sic in estoril, one race before simoncelli was responsible for a crash where dani broke his collarbone. the crash and sic's subsequent penalty meant that the three-way fight between jorge, dovi and valentino became one for the podium, with dovi and valentino eventually grabbing the two remaining spots behind casey. but during the race, jorge had executed a... questionable manoeuvre on dovi, one that did have some similarities to the sic/dani incident. given jorge's strong previous comments on racing standards, unsurprisingly the journalists pounced on this incident in the post-race presser and ask the podium sitters about it. here is the clip:

in this clip, dovi essentially says it was a dangerous move from jorge, but he wasn't sure what jorge's intent had been and he needs to watch the footage again. valentino (who had been the most outspokenly critical of sic of the three of them earlier in the presser) takes the opportunity presented to him to have a bit of a potshot at jorge. he says that dovi doesn't have the best relationship with sic but jorge had done something pretty similar in the race... at which point dovi goes "also lorenzo is not my friend"

which, you know. not exactly a major incident, but I find it very charming dovi felt the need to clarify that, actually, he doesn't like either of them. valentino also adds that by jorge's own standards, surely he too should have gotten a penalty. not exactly a meeting of jorge's biggest fans hm

(7) mapping eight-gate

well I can't leave it out, can I

so in 2017 jorge switches from yamaha to ducati and does not have a great time of it. a lot of weekends, he's just too slow, other times he shoots to the front of a race at the start (typically not great news for the rest of the field in his yamaha days) and then chews up his tyres before gradually dropping like a stone back through the field. at some point that year it became a bit of a running gag - especially when you saw he was the only big name to be picking a soft tyre and just went... buddy we ALL know how this is gonna end....

while this was happening, his teammate dovi was for the first time in his premier class career in championship contention. an extremely close title fight throughout the year with five protagonists until pretty late in the season, it eventually went to a title decider in valencia between dovi and marc. you know, the kind of year where every point counts. the race where marc put a bit of daylight between himself and dovi was phillip island, with marc winning a great dogfight out front while dovi had a bit of a horror show of a weekend. this meant that a lot would have to go right for dovi to have a chance of still winning the title... and sepang was already a match point race for marc

ducati had not won a championship since their 2007 title, courtesy of one casey stoner. after that year, their bike became steadily less competitive every season, reaching a nadir around the 2011-13-ish period. so by the time 2017 rolled around, they wanted this so so badly - even if they wouldn't have expected dovi to lead the charge. dovi had only narrowly beaten out iannone in the 'who's going to be fired for our shiny new lorenzo hire' contest of 2016, and really it was supposed to be jorge who was carrying ducati's dreams on his shoulders. but, never mind, they were throwing everything behind dovi now... no stone left unturned

which brings us, of course, to the subject of team orders. this discourse really took off at the penultimate race of the season at sepang, but was already brewing before that - and in phillip island, satellite ducati rider redding had been told early in the race to let dovi past

here from marc at sepang:

dovi had been in great form all weekend at sepang - and with his wet weather prowess being what it was, really there shouldn't have been any need for team orders at all. but he got a sluggish start, and the race unfolded from there... until eventually jorge was in first, dovi was in second and marc in fourth. in those positions, marc would have clinched the title there

and then, jorge got a message on his dashboard. suggested mapping: mapping 8. pit boards and dashboards and all sorts of boards will feature various codes during races, most of them completely innocuous - but of course they are a healthy source of all sorts of conspiracies. the timing of this one was certainly... notable, and speculation immediately started about how it might be a way of telling jorge that he should swap positions with dovi

jorge didn't end up letting dovi pass - it is questionable whether he really would have done so with what would have been his first ducati win on the line. in the end, he made a mistake that let dovi through so that dovi claimed the win anyway, keeping himself in mathematical contention in valencia. and jorge did say afterwards he was keeping dovi's title hopes in mind, kind of

jorge also said he hadn't gotten any message indicating team orders, and of course nobody at ducati confirmed that mapping eight did have anything to do with team orders

for what it's worth, this is what dovi said about their relationship at this stage:

lovely! let's see what the vibes are like a few months later

anyway, onto valencia. this race was pretty boring despite being a title decider, but the jorge/dovi bits were just unequivocally the weekend's most enjoyable aspect and rather nicely spiced up the whole thing. dovi's chances were always slim going in, given he'd have to win the race and marc would have to barely get any points at all... but still, you never know, right? marc could always crash (narrator: he did almost crash). jorge plays coy early in the weekend about the whole 'helping dovi out thing', and basically just started putting in place...? ... very specific conditions...? under which he'd help:

so during the actual race, dovi got stuck behind jorge in p5, with marc ahead of both of them. valencia is traditionally not a fantastic track to overtake at... so even if dovi had been faster, it's not like he'd have an easy time clearing jorge and cracking on. but they were beginning to drift further away from dani in p3 as ducati watched on, increasingly unamused by what was happening - and the tv cameras were of course kind enough to repeatedly show the ducati box looking deeply unamused. again, they went for the good old mapping eight message, which, hey, that could mean anything! they sure did keep showing it to jorge though, almost like he wasn't paying attention to it

eventually, they abandon all subtlety and go for a pit board message that does just straight-up tell jorge to swap positions. jorge kept ignoring the messages, lap after lap, and he never ended up letting dovi past. eventually they both crashed and marc claimed the title with a p3 finish, so it wouldn't have mattered anyway, but... still. the feeling was that this might things rather awkward inside of ducati

publicly, ducati was extremely keen to smooth over the whole controversy, saying they totally weren't mad at jorge blatantly ignoring team orders. jorge had, after all, explained to them (and the media, repeatedly) that he had totally been intending to help dovi by dragging him closer to dani

Giving his take on events, Lorenzo acknowledged that he ignored Ducati’s instruction because he felt Dovizioso’s chances would be boosted by having him directly ahead. “Even looking at this [dashboard] suggestion, I keep pushing until the end, because I knew it was the best thing for me, for Ducati and for Dovi,” said Lorenzo. “I helped him to improve his pace by one or two tenths, to be as close as possible to the first group. My intention was, and it was the case, that we arrive at the first group. If he had the option to win, I would have gone wide and let him pass. But unfortunately it was not like that. Maybe in some corners Dovi was close and I slow down a little bit his pace, but in general terms, having my wheel in front of him made him improve slightly his pace. I helped him stayed closer to the front group. “I knew Dovi was struggling, I knew his pace during all the weekend, and I knew he was making the best pace of the weekend just in the race. It was [because of the] help from my wheel. I’m happy because I was not wrong. If I was wrong and slowing him, I would be very sorry. But it’s not like that, my feeling was true.”

which, you know. is it really that easy to tell how much faster you are than someone who's sitting on your rear tyre? who's to say. dovi did certainly seem rather keen to get past

anyhow, of course there were plenty of fun dramatics post-race:

'our rider ignored team suggestions not team orders' is a great line, fairs. there's plenty more of this from ducati, some excellent spin doctoring - and dovi was extremely magnanimous about what had happened:

the whole thing was pretty undignified from all non-dovi parties, but it was also very funny so who's to say if it was bad or not

(8) runner-up-gate

let's check in on them in 2018, the second and ultimately last year in which they were teammates. remember that 'undermining morale' quote from above? those are from early 2018, after dovi says he wouldn't be surprised to see jorge elsewhere the following season. so, once jorge has complained that dovi had been trying to put him down his entire career, comes this:

so that's something. jorge, dovi and dani have a three-in-one crash in jerez, after which some fingers are pointed but it all remains fairly civil, and a bit later dovi says that jorge's approach doesn't work at ducati:

by the summer break, jorge's results had gotten better, but it was already too late to save the relationship with ducati and they parted ways. anyway, here's dovi and jorge having another go at it:

And while a rough patch for Dovizioso coupled with breakthrough back-to-back wins for Lorenzo in Mugello and Barcelona have now left the pair just three points apart in the standings, Dovizioso refused to back down from his claim when speaking to Spanish sports daily Marca ahead of the upcoming Brno race. “He’s won two races,” Dovizioso said. “Winning two races does not solve the problem of a year and a half. Lorenzo was not signed to win two races. Therefore I do not change my mind.” When the comments were put to Lorenzo, the three-time champion offered an ardent retort, stating that Dovizioso's rhetoric was proof of the claim he'd made back in April. “I'm a bit fed up with this situation, mainly because when I had trouble and he was winning, I was down there applauding,” Lorenzo told Spanish broadcaster Movistar. “What I said in Argentina - and the comments caused a big surprise - you can see that I was right. “He tried to undermine me, or downplay what I achieve or just attack me. As you can see, I wasn't lying. He's still doing it and now he says my method is not good, according to him.” Lorenzo intimated that Dovizioso was in no position to criticise him, as the Italian could do no better than runner-up to Marc Marquez in a 'perfect' 2017 season. He said: “I think my method has not worked too bad in my career. I've won three MotoGP titles and have 46 wins.” “In my second year in Ducati I'm usually faster than him, but maybe I should look at his method closer if in his best season, with everything going perfectly, he was second. Otherwise he's fourth or seventh usually. I'd tell him to leave me to go my way and to focus on his own and everything will be better, because when you have an angry Lorenzo it's usually worse for you.” 

fair to say that by this point the pretence at civility has mostly been dropped. I'm rather fond of the "lorenzo was not signed to win two races" line, though "when you have an angry lorenzo it's usually worse for you" is also really strong stuff. dovi tries to restore a little bit of peace:

Responding in turn to Lorenzo's tirade, Dovizioso sought to play down the conflict. “Jorge has his ideas and I think they are based on particular things. I don't think like him, but it's not a problem,” he told Movistar. “Everybody creates their own ideas based on what they see and how they live. “I don't think he has everything clear in his head about what's happened, but we continue the relationship that we started last year with respect, there's no particular problem. If he thinks this way, that's his problem."

so basically the classic 'idk what he's on about but it's not my problem' approach to attempting to defuse feuds

(9) twitter-gate

there's a few more on-track battles where it's nicely obvious how badly they want to beat each other, with jorge beating marc just ahead of dovi in austria and then dovi beating jorge in brno. jorge's season is increasingly derailed by injuries, which sets the stage for their next big spat:

The row was sparked by Dovizioso's comments to Sky Italia after qualifying at Sepang on Saturday, as he was asked what he thought of Lorenzo having to pull out of the Malaysian GP weekend with injury. "I don't know the details, I don't want to get into this, it's a bit of a strange situation," said Dovizioso."It happens often in Ducati or to certain riders, but I don't understand the details and I don't want to get into it and give my opinion." When it was put to him he was offering 'cryptic words', he added: "I leave things there, it's not my problem."

pretty vague, yeah. but anyway, I'm sure jorge had a proportionate response to this

Dovizioso's comments prompted a series of irate posts from Lorenzo on Twitter, with his first reaction being "Thank you very much @AndreaDovizioso! You are a real gentleman!". In his next post, he went on to call Dovizioso "an exemplary teammate", adding: "You applaud him under the podium when he wins and then... (That's right, he does not give his opinion, it's not his problem)." After that, Lorenzo labelled Dovizioso "envious" and described him as "a world champion... in 125cc."

the podium thing really bothered him, don't you think. their ducati in-fighting follows that general pattern where dovi says something... a little shady, a little ambiguous, where his intentions aren't entirely obvious... at which point jorge goes all in at fighting back and has a go at dovi - often not as much for what dovi is actually saying, but what jorge thinks dovi is implying. which is based on his understanding of dovi, the image of dovi he's built up in his head over the years, so that he is... predisposed to think ill of the intentions of the 'intelligent' dovi who always knows exactly what he's saying

again, dovi tried to downplay the argument, while simultaneously not exhibiting much patience for jorge's stance:

After the Malaysian GP, Dovizioso was asked about Lorenzo's responses to his comments, and the Italian accused his teammate of reading too much into headlines. He said: “Why should I talk to Lorenzo? I do not waste time on these things. He makes the usual mistake of giving too much importance to what is written, even without the context. "I have not pointed my finger at anyone and I have no problem with Jorge."

if I were ducati, I probably would've let the whole thing blow over given jorge was off soon anyway. but they decided the whole thing was so bad they had to organise a peace summit

Asked about the situation, Ducati sporting director Paolo Ciabatti admitted to Motorsport.com that the Bologna marque has already planned to sit its two riders on Tuesday in Milan to make it clear what its priorities are. Ciabatti said: “It is clear that the interests of Ducati come before personal problems between riders. On Tuesday we will be together in Milan, for the EICMA [motorcycle show] and we have in mind to spend half an hour to sit and talk to Jorge and Andrea. "We want to avoid similar things to what happened last weekend. "I understand that these kinds of situations can happen. Sometimes riders get nervous during a Grand Prix weekend and on a rainy day, with tricky conditions, sometimes they say things they shouldn’t have said."

god knows how that turned out

(10) wow, you guys aren't gonna let this go, huh

late 2020 and jorge's career is already over, while dovi's looks like it will be... paused, at the very least. which is always a good time to check in with riders on how they feel about their rivals - if they're still being nasty you know that shit was personal. from december:

some quality petty material here. "I can't understand his somewhat peculiar mind" vs "he was envious of me since 250cc, but I wanted to give our relationship a chance". note too jorge talking again about how generous he had been in the face of dovi's 2017 successes, and how he feels like this was not reciprocated at all. jorge's complaints don't stop there:

merry christmas!

not the only rider jorge has beefed with post-retirement, but compare and contrast with how he really hasn't been doing any of that with some of his biggest career rivals. valentino, marc, dani - sure, he still talks about the controversies he's had with them pretty regularly (to put it lightly), and he's hardly free of complaints... but mostly it's a distinctly nostalgic tone he's adopting with these guys. admittedly, it helps that none of those three have gone out of their way to say anything particularly inflammatory about jorge. still, the absolute lack of any sort of rapprochement with dovi of all people is pretty funny

bonus: that time when jorge skittled all of marc's rivals

you know how in catalunya 2019, jorge took out like? all of marc's major rivals in that era including himself in one go? with half a decade of hindsight, this was kind of hilarious, and it did also feature jorge having to eat a hell of a lot of humble pie and go to the three other blokes to apologise. anyway I have a lovingly assembled set of screenshots of all three of them emoting in their boxes after the incident, all suffering some form of an existential crisis. here is dovi contemplating the bleak realities of our brief lives on this planet:

truly one of the world's least enthusiastic waves

bonus 2: another one for old time's sake

already posted this elsewhere, but this from late 2023 made me laugh

"jorge came to ducati and thought he was going to beat everything, but in the end he didn't" uh huh

[gmarseln]

HEAR ME OUT. WENCLAIR SPIDER-MAN AU.

So we all know that Enid would obviously be Gwen, right? What if Wednesday was Venom.

And I mean this in the most enemies to lovers way possible.

[passionatememes]

extremely niche post but do you guys think daniil dankovsky and harrowhark nonagesimus would be friends or would they fucking hate each other

[decarbry]

a frequent visitor

[psychic-waffles]

do i ship them? no. do i think that them fucking would solve some problems for both of them? yes.

sorry to everyone in the heroes tag instead of any sensible meta about the parallels between them you get this