#and the other people joker killed

[thegurlwhoisntthere]

I’ve been thinking about the whole “Batman won’t kill the joker and that’s stupid” take and I’m just thinking-

Okay? Like if mans wants to stick by this one specific moral code for a job that he has literally nothing but a moral obligation to do, than by all means, let him be.

But you know who we should annoy? The fucking DC Government. “Oh he plead insanity and that mean we can’t kill him” be so fucking for real. This is the same government that made the suicide squad. This is the same government where Amanda fucking Waller is in charge of random shit. You’re going to look me in the fucking eyes and tell me they couldn’t just make an exception??? You’re going to sit there and tell me the judge or jury or whatever the fuck couldn’t be like “actually we don’t believe that he’s insane, kill this motherfucker”???

I’ll be honest, I’m not extremely familiar with the comics, but if this is not a storyline that has happened? It needs to be. Story where Batman catches Joker, but instead of just throwing him back in Arkham, the Gov. steps in and puts him on a super high security trial, and regardless of what he claims, they legally sentence him to death. Nothing Batman can do, it’s out of his hands. Joker dies, not by a pissed off Harley Quinn, or an enraged Red Hood, but by a Government that’s tired of this motherfucker costing them too much money in property damage and other shit.

[littlefankingdom]

Bruce tried to avenge Jason, not Dick

This is just a rant about a lil thing that keeps coming up in fics I read. Often, Dick is "forgiven" by Jason because he "avenged Jason" by killing the Joker and Bruce "ruined it". Or Dick is written to have tried to kill the Joker after Jason's death but not Bruce, and Bruce may have tried to stop him.

First of, Dick did not try to avenge Jason. Y'all really want him to be okay with killing and ready to kill to avenge his loved ones, but Dick is better than Bruce, and that also means he is less likely to cross the line. No, Dick did not want to kill Zucco (Apart from the Titans show, but this show's characterization is awful), and no, he did not want the Joker dead. When Dick killed the Joker, it was in a moment of rage because Tim was in danger. He did not plan it and he immediately regret it. Bruce, with the help of HELENA who is fine killing people, brought the Joker back to life for Dick, because it would have broken him. And Dick still hates himself afterward, for killing the Joker even tho he is alive. And, again, he did not do it for Jason.

And, sure, you can have your hc, but the moment they are in conflict with who the character is (Dick is disgusted by the idea of being a murderer, killing someone or letting someone be killed, even the murderer of his brother), then we are going to have a problem.

Now, about Bruce. Upon discovering Jason's body, Bruce was settled on avenging him. It's why he took away every evidence, so he would not have anyone interfere between him and the Joker. He spent the days following Jason's death, and then Jason's funerals, looking for the Joker to kill him. He refused to call Dick because he did not want him to interfere, he was only thinking about his revenge and did not think the emotional importance of telling Dick about Jason.

The man is not thinking straight. And when he thinks he found where the Joker may be, Superman shows up, telling him that a Gotham's criminal is now under diplomatic immunity and the US gov doesn't want Batman being a bitch about it. And Bruce punches Clark in the face. That's how fucking unstable he is at this point, punching Clark without kryptonite because he is standing between him and killing the Joker.

Clark learns the Joker killed Jason, and he tries to make Bruce accepts to only kill the Joker, the only justice Bruce is accepting at this point, once he isn't a diplomat. YES, SUPERMAN DID NOT STOP BRUCE. Batman nearly succeeds in killing the Joker, but the helicopter they are in is going down, so Superman saves him. Bruce, the fucking madman he is, obsessed over bringing justice to his boy, doesn't care about his safety, he wants the Joker's body! And when it isn't found, he isn't satisfied but accepts to go home.

The Joker will come back at least a year later, and with some ptsd from his last encounter with the Bat and escaping death. Bruce, doing better mentally now that he has a new child to take care of (which he sends with his whole class to Japan to protect), is afraid he will kill the Joker. He keeps bringing up to Alfred how much he wants to kill him for TAKING JASON FROM HIM. But Alfred reminds Bruce again and again that he is a good man and he will resist. He does. This was not the last time Bruce faced the Joker after Jason's death and thought about killing him for Jason.

And, let me be clear, I do not expect Jason to know Bruce did that. The only people who know he did that are Clark, Alfred and Bruce himself (who will probably never tell Jason himself what he did). And maybe Dick, if you want to think (like me) that Bruce sat down with him (way later, after Tim is in the picture so Bruce is better mentally) and explained his mental state when Jason died, and how he didn't tell him not because he was trying to push Dick away, but because he was obsessed with killing the Joker he wasn't thinking rationally about his decisions; not to excuse his actions but to explain how it happened.

Dick is better than Bruce, which is why he grieved Jason surrounded by his friends, people that would support him and listen to him. He did not went on a vengeance mission because he had a support system. Was he mad? Yes, but he tried to open about it to others (the Titans, Koriand'r who was his gf,...) Bruce, on the other hand, is one unhealthy mf that immediately isolated himself once Jason died. He stayed in the cave and dedicated himself only to work, taking all his emotions out on beating people up because he was sharing it. And when people tried to talk to him, he would explode the moment they say anything that he could interpret badly (Clark telling him the Joker has immunity, Dick blaming Bruce for Jason's death...) This is why Bruce tried to avenge Jason and then went out every night being extremely violent and suicidal, and not Dick.

Dick did not avenge Jason and he did not try to, but that doesn't make him a bad brother. He cared deeply about Jason's death, but he is not Bruce, he is better, and that means he is also better at handling grief and not become a self-destructive bomb like Bruce was.

Avenging our loved ones is, in Batman & co's comics, demonstrated to not be the healthy way to deal with grief. Revenge isn't the healthy way to deal with lost, it will only lead to more destruction and pain. It will not bring the dead back, it will only add more bodies in the ground, and it will not heal the wounds.

[stars-obsession-pit]

Hello! Can do a chapter fic off this fic prompt Danny phantom x dc: https://www.tumblr.com/corkinavoid/767516270934556672/dpxdc-legal-power?source=share

This isn’t a one-to-one recreation of that dialogue but it’s based on that as a framework/premise

Batman dropped down into the room behind a pair of figures—a teenage boy and a slumped adult—letting his landing create an audible thump to alert them of his presence.

If the teen noticed, he didn’t react. Even as Bruce approached, he continued to stare impassively at the wheezing figure on the ground, an old wooden bat with flaking green paint on its side loosely held in his right hand. Bruce had already suspected who the figure would be since he arrived, but seeing the Joker so broken was still bizarre. No laughing, no schemes. He didn’t even seem to be attempting to escape his binds, just… lying there, almost as if pinned in place.

Bruce paused a step behind the teen. “I don’t know what the Joker did to you, but this isn’t the right way to go about this.”

The teen scoffed, and Bruce felt a painful lurch in his chest as he was reminded oh so strongly of his son Jason. “And what, let him go kill more people?”

“I know he deserves to face justice, but not like this. Everyone deserves a right to fair trial. No one person should be judge, jury, and executioner.”

The teen turned to look at him with glowing green eyes, and Batman felt himself freeze. He had faced gods before, yet even using that as a comparison felt like an understatement. The boy’s eyes belonged to someone far older than his teenage form implied, and they radiated power. Inevitability.

When the teen—no, the entity—spoke again, his words carried an unearthly echo. “Perhaps, but I’m not acting for just myself.” He paused, glanced down at the Joker, then asked almost conversationally, “Do you know how many people he’s killed?”

Another pause, but before Bruce could even try to answer, the entity continued, “Eight hundred and fifty-six. He’s ended the lives of eight hundred and fifty-six human souls. I can tell you about every single one, if you want. About who they were, what their dreams were before he killed them. About the pain they felt at his hands.”

He punctuated the word ‘pain’ by raising up the wooden bat in his hands and ramming its end down onto the Joker’s arm. He let out a wheeze, muffled by the gag in his mouth.

“I have a duty to my people. I am the King of the In-Between and of all the souls that pass through it—even ones whose stays were as brief as his. I am the rightful arbiter of his fate. And with that power, I sentence him to death.”

He raised the bat again, adjusting his grip so he’d hit with the side rather than the end this time, then paused and let out a chuckle. “Of course, just because it’s based on some justice doesn’t mean I can’t have a bit of fun with it too.” He swung the bat down, slamming it into the Joker’s side, then hooked it under the clown’s torso and flicked him up through the air to slam into the wall. “We all really hate this guy.”

With the entity’s attention fully turned away from him as he sauntered towards the Joker’s slumped figure, Bruce could finally unfreeze himself.

Even if the Ghost King did have the right to pass judgement on Joker, Bruce still couldn’t let torture go on like this. He wouldn’t win a direct fight, but he could hopefully at least grab the Joker and bring him over to the police. Carefully, he reached for some of the smoke bombs and batarangs on his belt and readied his grapple. He’d have to do this very, very fast.

But before he could move, another figure entered the scene. Red Hood, emerging from the shadows on the far side of the room, an unexpected bit of a pep to his step.

“Nice to see someone else who gets that that bastard needs to die. But if I may make a suggestion, how ‘bout you use a crowbar instead of that old bat? It’d be a bit more… fitting.”

[erinwantstowrite]

crazy how people will see bruce not wanting to kill because he knows he wouldn't stop and eventually would get out of control because he's severely mentally ill and they think "wow what a selfish asshole"

[snowcoming]

people who say dick's death doesn't count because his heart wasn't stopped for long enough is WILD because he died. he didn't loose consciousness. his heart was stopped by luthor, and he DIED.

and

time doesn't make difference to a dead person. if they wake up their last memory's gonna be of dying, not of how long they were dead. because being dead means being dead, and the characters that get revived will not feel anything different if they got revived in one minute or ten years. they physically can NOT PROCESS how long its been.

[glitter-stained]

I used to dislike Lazarus Pit Madness headcanons but I've seen people say "he doesn't need magic madness he has normal madness" and "why would you need a magical explanation for his behaviour have you people never heard of cptsd" and while I understand the sentiment (and Jason definitely has cptsd) this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say dc has a dangerous habit of demonizing/villanizing mental illness and it has a real impact on the fandom's perception of mental illness. Winnick isn't the worst when it comes to Jason's writers but the fact that he wrote Jason as both a brilliant hypercompetent villain and a sympathetic character that makes you go "oh hey, he has a point..." should not distract you from the fact that no, decapitation is not a common symptom of cptsd.

[littlefankingdom]

DC comics: Jason and Harley cannot stand each others.

Me: I recognize the council has made a decision. But given that it's a stupid-ass decision, I've elected to ignore it.

[rockingthegraveyard]

They way he just protects this little girl!!!

All the while he's just so fucking scared!

With three villains after him now, one completely losing interest because he's already scared out of his mind. Meanwhile everyone is just gossiping about Batman doing something to the Red Hood that might make him an easier targets and I'm stomping Bruce to death with my hooves.

[ghost-bxrd]

I'm reading the whole Mockingjay fluffy/hilarious headcanons, but defaulting to horror...

Am I the only one who thinks Jason, himself very messed up, teaching a mini Bruce that killing is okay if it's a "bad guy" is going to end with a lot more bodies than even Red Hood would be okay with?

Yeah, Bruce is a smart kid, but he is an eight year old kid, and very traumatized. Kids tend towards binary good guys and bad guys thinking. Elite kid Bruce is... not that likely to get why some bad guys should be spared, or why he can't have fun with (torture) all the bad guys.

I'm picturing Mockingjay killing some teenaged would-be mugger in Crime Alley and being utterly puzzled why Jason thinks this bad guy didn't deserve death.

He was just hungry and desperate? He needed the money to live? Well, some bad guy who was hungry and desperate killed his mom and dad! Would Jason have helped Joe Chill escape if they had caught him?

In Antithesis of Magic Bruce is currently ten! (I think. I haven’t checked but he’s either ten or eleven)

Very young, I agree. But despite his age he has a good sense of right and wrong, and all Jason’s influence did was make him become more flexible in how to deal with the really bad people.

Right now we’re still at the very beginning of the story, and there’s a massive amount of world building and character development still ahead of us. However, Bruce does not kill people himself. And he doesn’t like Jason doing so, either. He understands why Jason does it, and he trusts him enough to only kill the people who truly deserve it, but at the core of it all Bruce would still opt to take the non-lethal route. Which means he probably won’t fall into the rabbit hole too deeply.

Jason and Bruce balance each other out like that. With Bruce’s insistence on keeping it to necessary kills only, and Jason’s refusal to stop killing. A fragile balance, yes. But also one that allows them to harmonize as well as they do.

[kittykatninja321]

controversially I do think that the under the red hood comic ending is a solid answer to “how do you get Batman to kill someone without breaking him as a character”

[snevinsspn]

if you truly want to intensely and deeply analyze media i fear you do have to examine the meta of it all. the fact that these characters are fictional and exist for our entertainment is a key factor in many decisions they make and actions they take. the show has to be entertaining. bad things have to happen. there needs to be drama. if all the characters were goody two shoes who made all the right decisions and never did anything wrong then there would be no show. it would be boring as fuck. characters need to have flaws and do stupid shit and be complex!!!

like i’m not saying just shove the weight of every single one of a characters actions aside and say “it was for the meta” but it does have to be something you consider when you analyze.

like for example you can’t hold a fictional character to the same moral and ethical standards as a real life person because a person isn’t being driven by a meta narrative for our entertainment. like fictional characters encounter insane situations a regular person would never have to deal with and writers make them make certain decisions so that we stay engaged and enjoying ourselves. sometimes characters will do questionable things and not have to be redeemed for it because the plot needed it to function

[jasontoddsno1simp]

Beginning to realize y'all call Jason an unreliable narrator when he says something that makes your perception of him fall apart

[rmbunnie]

Red Hood Characterization

This is really long so I'm putting a cut here, I've been thinking about Jason Todd's character motivations and the question of whether or not his actions are based in a Moral Code (I don't think so, not to say he's without any morality) and I talk about that in more depth here.

I saw someone say on here that Titans: Beast World: Gotham City was some of the best Jason Todd internal writing they'd seen in a while, and I've been a Red Hood fan for 8 years or so now? pretty much since I read comics for the first time, so I went and checked out and I thought it was good! The way the person I saw talking about it as if it was rare and unusual made me wonder though, because as well-written as i thought his stances on crime were, there wasn't really anything in it that went against the way I conceptualize Jason?

This kinda plays into a larger question I've been thinking about for a while with Jason though, which is that, do people think that the killing is part of a fundamental worldview that motivates him a la batman, and that worldview is the reason he does the things he does?? Because 8 years ago i was a middle schooler engaging with fiction on the level that a middle schooler does, so I simply did not put much thought into it beyond "poor guy :(" but ever since I actually started trying to understand consistent characterization, I don't really see Jason as someone who's motivated by a moral code in his actions the way batman or superman is!

tbh my personal read is that he's a very socially-motivated guy, his actions from resurrection to his Joker-Batman ultimatum in utrh always seemed to me like every choice made leading up to his identity reveal was either a. to give him the leverage and skill necessary to pull off his identity reveal successfully, or b. to twist the knife that little bit more when he does let Bruce find out who he is. Like iirc there's a Judd Winick tweet like "yeah tldr he chose Red Hood as his identity because it's the lowest blow he could think of." And I think that's awesome, I think character motivations rooted so deeply in character's relationships and emotions are really fun to read! I also think it's where the stagnation/flatness of his character comes from in certain comics, because if his main motivation is one event in one relationship that passes, and he is not particularly attached to anything in his life or the world by the time that comes to pass, it's a little harder to come up with a direction to go with the character after that, because there isn't much of a direction that aligns with something the character would reasonably want? But I do think solving this by saying "all of the morally-off emotionally driven cruelty he did on his way to spite Batman was actually reflective of his own version of Batman's stance that's exactly the same except he thinks it's GOOD to kill people" isn't ideal. To be fully honest, it seems to me like he never particularly cared one way or the other about killing people to "clean Gotham of crime," he just did everything he could to get the power necessary to pull off his personal plans, and took out any particularly heinous people he encountered along the way (like in Lost Days.) Not to say I think the fact he killed people keeps him up at night anymore than everything else in his life events, I just never really thought he was out there wholeheartedly kneecapping some dude selling weed or random guy robbing a tv store for justice.

Looping wayyy back to my question, Is this (^) contradictory to the way he's written/the overall average perception of the character? Because like I enjoyed his writing in Beast World i have zero significant issue with anything there, I just didn't believe it would be a hot take, like yeah, that is Jason. It's been a while since I've read utrh and lost days, but I don't think my takeaway directly contradicts either of those too bad iirc. Idk all this to say I think Jason killing and being alright with killing is an obvious and objective fact, but i guess i've always seen it as more of a practical tactic than a moral belief, and I think taking the actions made during the lowest points of a character's life where he is obsessively focused on this ONEEEE thing and trying to apply it as a Motivating Stance to everything he's done after that, doesn't really follow logically for me.

[clownprince]

finally reading the metal/death metal arcs and related stuff and the timeline is just so insane. like. first batman chooses his family over joker, rejecting him and breaking his shriveled black heart. joker's reaction to this is to kill batman and destroy gotham, as one does. then they both make the executive decision to commit homoerotic murder-suicide. but they're resurrected with dionesium. joker in his new persona all pleads with batman not to go back to the way things were.

batman, now re-batmanified, captures joker, locks him in the batcave for several months, extracts the dionesium from his body, re-jokerfying him (???). bruce proposes to selina, presumably at the same time he has joker imprisoned in the cave. then despite joker all but begging him not to, batman effectively breaks the multiverse and opens the door for barbatos, the batman who laughs, and a whole other host of cosmic horrors. nice one, bruce! joker later teams up with batman to fight tbwl even though, again, this entire mess is very much bruce's own fault and joker was actively trying to prevent all of it! even though bruce Locked Him In A Cave. For Several Months. and broke his heart and literally killed him...

and joker's later reaction to all of this unfolding is to team up with lex luthor who's trying to take control of the multiverse because ofc he is. however joker fully intends to backstab lex the second he gets close to succeeding, and then to murder the entire legion of doom and show off their bodies to batman. but this plan is derailed because luthor is working with the batman who laughs who joker DESPISES.

then when tbwl resurfaces to target batman, joker shoots himself in the heart to infect batman so he can fight tbwl. bruce holds his dying body so very tenderly in his arms and then has alfred perform open heart surgery on him, refusing to let joker actually die even though alfred is basically begging him to do so. then joker escapes but comes back to wish batman good luck in fighting tbwl. batman asks joker to kill him if he becomes like tbwl. joker agrees and ends up keeping his promise and shooting batman (who ends up fine ofc because y'know, comics).

then like a year-ish later everything with their dark designs and joker war goes down. and some time during this the whole batcat marriage and best man arc takes place (not sure exactly when, the timeline makes my head hurt). like... how am I supposed to be normal about any of this.

[neon--nightmare]

forest fire by ajj is SUCH a loveball fresh song to me bro

[one-hit-boy-wonder]

okay i think enough time has passed that i can joke about it

Jason: Your methods are ineffective. If you don't permanently stop criminals they will just continue to hurt people. Bruce: *finds a permanent way to stop people from being violent and uses it on Jason, a dangerous criminal* Jason: