#and some very protective nie sect members

[qiu-yan]

a lot of what nie mingjue does makes sense if you consider his specific code of ethics, his position, and the fact that he's known for pretty much his entire life that his cultivation path will kill him and has accepted this fact entirely....but the one thing i don't understand is why he swore brotherhood with jin guangyao. from nie mingjue's point of view, jin guangyao is already the guy who faked a suicide to escape from nie mingjue after nie mingjue tried to bring him to justice for straight-up murder, and that's not even getting into all the fear, anger, and trauma nie mingjue must still be bearing from the wen yao confrontation at nightless city. why would you want to tie yourself via sworn brotherhood to someone who has already done all this shit to you?

consider also the fact that nie mingjue knows his saber cultivation will lead him to become more unstable, impair his judgment, and may even affect his perceptions of reality - which means that he needs confidants he can trust. jin guangyao, via the whole suicide gambit, has already proven to nie mingjue that he is not trustworthy. so if nie mingjue knows that trustworthiness is necessary and that trust is something he's going to need, why would he choose to tie himself to someone he already thinks of as untrustworthy?

some potential reasons i can think of (written from nie mingjue's pov, so they might read uncharitably):

first (1), there's nie mingjue's stated reason of "wanting to correct jin guangyao from the path of evil" (something along those lines). there's at least two different ways you can take this:

1A: nie mingjue wants to do this in order to protect others from jin guangyao: first, nie mingjue sees jin guangyao as an emerging threat no one else has yet recognized, and so wants to keep an eye on jin guangyao / keep him in check. if jin guangyao can be "corrected to the righteous path," then fewer innocent people suffer. second, nie mingjue wants to protect lan xichen from jin guangyao. from nie mingjue's pov, lan xichen has been completely taken in by jin guangyao's charm, so jin guangyao could pose a danger to him as well; by inserting himself into the sworn brotherhood, nie mingjue can be there to protect lan xichen.

1B: nie mingjue wants to do this in order to save jin guangyao himself: nie mingjue still loves jin guangyao and wants to save jin guangyao from the path of evil, for jin guangyao's own sake. confucius (and aristotle, and marx, and a whole bunch of other dudes) does say that if you see your friend doing something morally wrong, then as their friend you have a duty towards them specifically to object to their behavior.

second (2), there are also some more practical / political reasons:

2A: the sworn brotherhood secures a more stable future for nie huaisang, since it entails long-term connections with the jin and the lan.

2B: a sworn brotherhood between high-profile members of different sects after the ordeal of the sunshot campaign could help in encouraging more postwar intersect unity, which would be necessary and beneficial in a time period in which everyone's still struggling to recover from the war. this sworn brotherhood ties the jin, the lan, and the nie together as allies, meaning they can share resources and information as they rebuild. of course, this does entail the exclusion of the jiang - but my personal opinion is that they all lowkey expected jiang cheng to fail and for the jiang to decline / be absorbed by another sect.

third and finally (3), there are the simple interpersonal reasons, unrelated to morality or politics:

3A: nie mingjue still cares for jin guangyao and therefore still wants a relationship with him. at the moment he swore brotherhood, he was still willing to try and mend things with jin guangyao.

3B: nie mingjue wants to make lan xichen happy, and lan xichen clearly wants the sworn brotherhood.

3C: if nie mingjue refuses to swear brotherhood, lan xichen may very well go ahead and swear brotherhood with jin guangyao anyways. which would lead to lan xichen and jin guangyao becoming closer, while lan xichen by contrast drifts further way from nie mingjue.

probably some aspect of all of these (plus some other reasons i forgot) are true at once. what's interesting, though, is that one can construct two overlapping yet also separate categories of reasons - separated by whether one believes nie mingjue still holds personal affection for jin guangyao or not.

[youhideastar]

WujiWatch: CQL Rewatch Episode 11

This episode is jam-packed – so jam-packed that I can’t remember whether Meng Yao is thrown out of Qinghe Nie Sect at the beginning of this episode or the end of the last one, but the last post was way too long so I’m putting it here regardless! I’ve got two things on the scene where Meng Yao is kicked out, and one thing on that weird scene where Wen Chao tries to ambush Lan Wangji on the way back to Cloud Recesses.

Fanon Meng Yao is this master manipulator, the smooth talker who moves the people around him like chess pieces—but the thing that stands out to me, watching the scene between Meng Yao and Nie Mingjue, is that Meng Yao’s behavior here is a masterclass in how not to influence people. Like, genuinely, I hope he wasn’t even trying, because otherwise, I’m embarrassed for him.

He starts out okay, talking about how the captain mistreated him, day after day, humiliating him, abusing him—Nie Mingjue says, “And so you killed him,” and if Meng Yao had said, “Yes. That’s why,” I really think Nie Mingjue would have understood. He wouldn’t have been happy about it—he still looks mad when he says, “And so you killed him,” but he’s not disgusted. He knows how long Meng Yao has been taking that kind of abuse from the other disciples, he’s tried (ineffectively) to protect Meng Yao from that, and if Meng Yao just couldn’t take it anymore and snapped, that would therefore be partly Nie Mingjue’s fault for failing to protect him.

But instead, Meng Yao, supplied with a perfectly good excuse for murder, the kind of thing that the hot-tempered Nie Mingjue could easily understand, says, “No, it wasn’t that.” He then raises and immediately discards another perfectly good explanation, saying it wasn’t because the captain repeatedly insulted his mother—which Nie Mingjue could also have understood just fine, and perhaps even found honorable, as a particularly bloody exercise of filial piety. Why even bring it up if you’re not going to claim it as a defense!?

Instead, Meng Yao says it was because the captain claimed credit for Meng Yao’s work. If I were trying to think of the least persuasive excuse you could possibly make to someone like Nie Mingjue, that would be up there. To Nie Mingjue, even admitting that you care about getting credit for your work is distasteful. To kill someone over it? Once he hears that, he’s not just mad, he’s revolted. It is not hard to foresee this reaction. For Meng Yao not to see it coming, or for Meng Yao to see it coming and think Nie Mingjue likes him enough to overcome that reaction, is a huge miscalculation.

Is Meng Yao a talented manipulator? Clearly, he is, in some circumstances. But at some very key points—this scene and the confrontation with Qin Su particularly stand out—that skill deserts him. I think, in both cases, he cares too much about the people he’s confronting, and it impairs his otherwise sharp judgment.

The other and last thing I want to say about this scene is that it is no accident that the “Meng Yao gets thrown out” scene takes place in such close proximity to the scene in which we meet Yu Ziyuan. It would have been easy to introduce her character at several previous points, including the meeting breaking up the engagement she arranged, or a scene during Jiang Cheng and Jiang Yanli’s return to Lotus Pier. But the writers choose this moment: the moment when the viewer has just learned—and Wei Wuxian has just been reminded—that even a highly valued, talented sect member with an important role can be tossed out with nothing but the clothes on his back, at the sect leader’s whim. Wei Wuxian carries himself like the typical powerful, comfortable young master, with his expensive clothes and blithe disrespect for authority. But this is the episode where you see what’s underneath—where you come to appreciate how precarious his position truly is.

One last little random thing, about the scene where Lan Wangji is walking (why?? he can fly!) back to Cloud Recesses and is ambushed by Wen Chao, first by a sinkhole opening up in the road (why?? again, he can fly!), and then by a physical attack from Wen Zhuliu. Wen Chao tries to intimidate him verbally, calling him “Lan Zhan” (Wen Chao’s beef with Lan Wangji, like Jin Zixun’s, is so weirdly personal) and saying that he hates Lan Wangji’s condescending tone, which is fucking hilarious because Lan Wangji has never in his life said a word to Wen Chao. Lan Wangji fends the Wens off with one of Wei Wuxian’s sparkle-distraction talismans and then vanishes.

What I find interesting about this scene (besides the fact that I literally always forget that it exists and am surprised to see it again when I rewatch haha) is that, after all of the above goes down, Wen Chao says, “That’s Wei Wuxian’s [Name of Talisman] Talisman!” (I’m serious, my recall of this scene is so poor, even after five times.) This is one of the very few clues we get in the series that teenage Wei Wuxian is famous throughout the cultivation world for his inventive genius with talismans. Wen Chao might have been able to guess that the talisman came from Wei Wuxian just based on the fact that Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji are friends, but the only way he would know the specific name of the talisman is if he’s heard about Wei Wuxian’s inventions, even all the way in Nightless City where they’re all busy pretending the rest of the cultivation world has nothing to offer. (And this isn’t the writers using Wen Chao to pass along information the viewer needs – we have no need to know what the talisman is called, it won’t come up again.)  Kind of neat!

[thebiscuiteternal]

If you’re still doing writing jam— In that post-canon Wangxian-doesn’t-let NHS-speak AU, something about NHS’s forced silence is done, for better or for worse your choice. I love WX with my whole heart but I it also aches for NHS in that AU :’)

For those wondering, here.

---

Nie Huaisang pinched the bridge of his nose and took a deep breath, then looked up. "Let it go, Min-jie."

"I will do no such thing," Zhang Min hissed as the others nodded their agreement with her protest. "I understand that you are tired of making waves, but we are tired of watching you be humiliated."

"Now you are tired?" Nie Huaisang asked in a weak attempt at a joke, then winced when the healer's fierce glare only managed to intensify.

"This is different-" she started to snap, before Nie Guofai, his second put a hand on her arm.

"Use the potion," he pressed. "If you still want me to handle the discussions, then fine, I will, but at least this way, you'll be the one controlling your public image again."

Nie Huaisang looked from face to face, seeing the same grim determination in each one.

Ah, what had he done to earn such devotion?

He sighed. "Alright, alright. Give it here."

---

As they walked to the throne hall of the Cloud Recesses, he drew the tiny ceramic bottle from his sleeve and downed the contents.

Even with Zhang Min's attempt to mitigate the flavor of the qi-channeling minerals ground into the liquid by adding some fruit juice, he couldn't help a shudder of disgust.

"Oh, that's awful," he coughed. "I think I've been poisoned with better-tasting things than that."

Nie Guofai snorted. "Speaking of bad taste," he said.

"I know, I know, I'm supposed to be easing up on the gallows humor." he shook his head one more time, resisting the urge to spit, then straightened up and squared his shoulders. "Let's get this over with."

---

He ended up only speaking once during the conference, near the end, to congratulate young Zizhen on his ascension to Ouyang-zongzhu after his father's retirement.

It was the faint smirk that crossed Nie Guofai's face that clued him in to the fact that the silencing spell had been attempted; he hadn't even felt anything.

He didn't turn around to see what expressions the Chief Cultivator and his husband might be wearing. Instead, he simply patted his second on the shoulder and gestured that it was time to leave.

[mxtxfanatic]

Anyways, the Jin sect were able to become the powerhouse sect amongst the great sects purely because the other sects did not care to oppose them, and I can imagine that this is the very reason that the Wen were also a powerhouse sect. (Disclaimed: I’m coming at this purely from the angle of what the book tells us, not outside historical context. For one, I do not know said context, but two, as important as I think that context is to flesh out some elements of the story, I think it’s just as important to not brush off what the novel literally shows us even if it doesn’t perfectly fit said historical context, as this is not a historical novel.)

When we get to the pre-sunshot campaign flashbacks, everyone already knows about all the evils of Wen Ruohan. It’s openly known that he killed the Nie sect leader out of jealousy and that this is why Nie Mingjue hates him. Lan Xichen immediately pinpoints the blame for the waterborne abyss onto the Wen, to absolutely no one’s surprise. It’s even noted that the Wen have been attacking and subsuming smaller cultivation clans around it to bolster its power, which is why like half of all the cultivation clans are affiliated with the Wen. Not to mention, Wen Ruohan disrespects the great sect leaders to their faces, and they all just take it. The Wen demand that all sect heirs and 20 extra disciples be “taught” by them? Everybody sends their children. The second son of the Wen clan almost kills all of those heirs after weeks of mistreatment? Well, they didn’t actually die, so it’s all good. The Wen burn a great sect’s most prized possession, kill its sect leader, kidnap the second son, and have the heir on the run? Well, it didn’t happen to us, so no need for concern. War only breaks out because the one sect leader who actively hated the Wen was attacked, and even then, only 3 of the 4 remaining great sects fully participate.

Now, how do the Jin rise to power? They host a lot of banquets, they subsume the smaller clans that were formerly affiliated with the Wen, they disrespect other great sect leaders to their faces while cultivators cheer them on. And everyone allows them to because they simply do not care to fight back against the Jin; this is their status quo. The only fight they can muster is to massacre the remaining Wen clan members and the man protecting them, and then it’s back to petty bickering while ignoring the genocidal elephant in the room. The first real sign of discontent with the Jin’s power comes from the Xue Yang incident, which showed that 1) a great sect leader could successfully oppose the Jin if they so chose, 2) the Jin were not infallible because they did have to appease Nie Mingjue on the issue, something the Wen never had to do, and 3) that’s why Nie Mingjue had to be killed as the only one willing to oppose the Jin (in certain circumstances). What gets me, especially, is when all these crimes come to light in Lotus Pier and Guanyin Temple, Lan Xichen and the rest of the nameless cultivators’ biggest issues seem, again, to linger on Jin Guangyao’s personal culpability to his personal relationships but not the Jin sect whose overall greed for power necessitated these actions. (Like really, fuck the sex workers and the minor clans used for experiments, I guess. Fuck the entirety of Yi City, I guess.) There’s a reason Wei Wuxian is so uncomfortable by the way the conversation in Lotus Pier against Jin Guangyao goes to personal slander while everyone ignores the more far-reaching issues with the reveal (and even how the reveals came to them).

So yeah, the Jin rise to power comes out of the same place that the Wen rise to power did: passivity and status qo maintenance.

[flautistsandpeonies]

Fanon Petpeeve: Disregarding Wei Wuxian’s Gift For Jin Ling

Now, this happens in a lot of fics, and there is no one type of fanfic that these scenes show up in, only that the fic is set during the Yiling Laozu days.

The gripe that I have comes as this: When it's times for Jin Ling;s one month celebration, instead of the canon gift that Wei Ying created, the writer will have Wei WuXian gift (or try to gift) baby Jin Ling.....a YunmengJiang Sect bell.

Now, some may be thinking, “why does that tick you off?”, but let me explain.

Qiongqi Path part 2 is a culmination of the the three years of the sects’ malignment towards Wei Wuxian. He gets ambushed by people from all the sects, being accused for a crime he did not commit. Jin Zixun destroys the gift that Wei Wuxian made for Jin Ling and when Jin Zixuan shows up and (terribly) tries to deescalate the situation....well we all know what happens.

During this scene, Wei Wuxian was so pissed off that his gift was destroyed that he charges Jin Zixun. Now, some may be thinking again, “wouldn’t he be that pissed if the gift was a Jiang sect bell?” but:

By having Wei Wuxian gift Jin Ling a Jiang Sect bell you care taking away some of Wei Wuxian’s prime reasons for being angry during that scene.

The gift itself was not the sole reason Wei Wuxian was so pissed, it was everything leading up to its destruction.

The bell that Wei Wuxian created had the ability to ward off all low level spirits and corpses from the wearer. Jin Ling would have been fully protected from all threats unless they were something higher level ala Wen Ning or Nie Mingjue.

Wei Wuxian spent an entire week inside his cave creating this gift. Afterwards, he went into town and bought new robes for the event. [Think about how much those robes must have cost him for him to be presentable before a plethora of rich cultivators] After that he and Wen Ning made an entire weeks trek to Lanling just to attend this celebration, and upon their arrival to Qiongqi Path, get ambushed by the combined forces of the sects, lead by a man (the cousin no less) of the very man who invited him in the first place.

Yes, Wei Wuxian was annoyed that Jin Zixun accused him of cursing him despite Wei Wuxian not knowing who he was, and he has every single right to be pissed about the gifts destruction, but you are missing an even bigger picture.

Jin Zixun destroyed Wei Wuxian’s gift in mere seconds. A gift that took an entire week to create. A event that he spent money and resources to attend has now become an ambush to klll him for a crime hasn’t committed. Everything he did probably seemed like it was for nothing.

The weeks Wei Wuxian spent making that gift and going to Lanling could have been time he spent making the Burial Mounds more bearable for himself and the Wens. The money he spent on robes could have been spent on food or medical supplies.

That’s two weeks of time and who knows how much money spent only for him to have to fight for his life.

Yes, Wei Wuxian wanted to see the baby who he gave a courtesy name to, yes he wanted to see Yanli, but the gifts destruction is a single drop in the ocean of why Wei Wuxian lost his cool on Qionqi Path.

By making Wei Wuxian gift (and subsequently get angry over) a Jiang Sect bell, you take away not only the time and resources wasted, but you also make Wei Wuxian’s anger all about the Jiang Sect/Jiang Cheng and Jiang Yanli and completely do away with his situation with the Wens.

Wei Wuxian has not been a member of the Jiang Sect for three years at that point in the story. He has no reason to bring a Jiang Sect bell to the Jin heir’s one month celebration. Additionally, politically speaking, do you know how bad it would look for Wei Wuxian, the man that Jiang Cheng lied to the sects about “betraying the Jiang and calling himself the enemy of the cultivation world” to bring the spiritual tool of that sect to a baby’s celebration? They would have thought he was mocking them and who knows what would have happened!

Jiang Cheng Stans Don’t Clown on My Posts

[madtomedgar]

I’m sure you’ve answered some version of this before but what do you think of NMJ and NHS?

i have a tag called "every day i lose more respect for nie mingjue" so that should... tell you a lot and be a useful way to figure it out.

For Reasons, the way that nmj refuses to handle his own explosive rage, and makes it everyone else's problem, including people he can and will very much hurt or kill in said rage, makes me see red. It is a dynamic I am very familiar with irl, and I cannot stand people who know that they are prone to explosive, violent rage and respond by saying "well just don't piss me off by misbehaving, and you won't have anything to worry about." Especially when this person's very existence can sometimes piss them off! I think it's worth noting that he never, not once, apologizes for hurting or trying to kill Jin Guangyao, even the time that Meng Yao was spying for their side, saved his life, and won the war for them! He never admits to being in the wrong because, imo, he sees himself as just, virtuous, and upright, and therefore he and his actions and opinions are always just, virtuous, and upright. Any disagreement is evil and deserves whatever it gets. I hate that! I will grant that novel nmj has good cause to distrust jgy, after the suicide fake-out, but cql nmj doesn't, as I've posted about before. There are things about the character and the dynamic and the purpose he serves in the narrative that are interesting, sympathetic, tragic, etc, and if I can suspend my disbelief I can enjoy the kinder gentler nmj of fanon, but overall, not a fan.

For nhs. It's worse. I find his arc, the way he dedicates his whole life to avenging someone who he didn't get along with and didn't treat him very well to assuage his guilt over not being a better brother and having been close to jgy, and possibly to give himself an excuse for sucking as a sect leader, and then winding up with nothing but a deeply unsatisfying revenge in the end, interesting and compelling. But overall i find nhs to be spoiled, self-centered, callous, and childish. his total disregard for the very real lives of anyone (including the people who rely on the nie sect for protection, who he neglects to further his personal vendetta!) in favor of avenging his brother, who is dead, is not a point in his favor imo. the way people handwring about his innocence, when he is the same age as: meng yao, who has an adult job, wei wuxian, jiang cheng, and lan wangji, who fight in a gruesome war, and older than wen ning, drives me nuts. you never see anyone worrying about their innocence, but poor nhs, as an adult, loses one family member (who was actively dying already!) and it's the worst thing that ever happened to anyone. Overall I think he has a lot in common with Xue "the finger was mine, the lives were other people's" Yang than most people want to admit. Except I get why Xue Yang is like that. In NHS's case it just feels like a spoiled rich kid who genuinely believes his life and his sorrow and his anger are more important than the lives of anyone below him or not part of his family. And that is not something I find terribly likeable or interesting. I am again able to suspend my disbelief to enjoy fanon nhs in fic sometimes, and I enjoy the "what ifs" of aus where nhs's personal development takes a different path, but again... overall not positive, sorry.

[robininthelabyrinth]

Prompt number two: Great Sects have a very long history and it means that sometimes, there is that one family member that saw some demon or naga and was like I'm Gonna Tap That. And years later there is a genetic hiccup and a non human baby is born. WWX generation is just the biggest hiccup that happened, where at least half of a heirs is clearly not totally human. Press F for Wen sect and their plans for a war.

“Why do you think Teacher Lan called for all of us to meet him here after hours, but none of the others?” Nie Huaisang asked, playing with his fan.

“Pop quiz,” Jiang Cheng said, and Nie Huaisang dropped his fan with a clattering sound. “Just kidding.”

“You monster. Don’t scare me like that!”

“What type of pop quiz would involve only the heirs of the Great Sects, plus me?” Wei Wuxian asked. “Hey, Lan Zhan, do you know?”

Lan Wangji stiffly shook his head.

“Extra lessons?” Jiang Cheng wondered. “Maybe more of something we were studying in class?”

“We were studying types of yao or divine and demonic beasts,” Jin Zixuan objected. “What type of information about that would be restricted to the Great Sects? Not to mention…”

His eyes slide over to Wei Wuxian pointedly.

“What? Are you implying something?” Wei Wuxian asked, stepping forward. “Listen –”

Lan Qiren cleared his throat pointedly.

“Thank you for coming,” he said, settling down and gesturing for them to sit. “The subject of tonight’s lesson is heritage.”

They all wilted. That was no one’s favorite subject.

“Specifically, your own,” he continued, folding his hands together. “In today’s lesson on yao, what was the differentiating feature between advanced level yao and lower tier creatures? Jin Zixuan?”

“Uh,” Jin Zixuan said, clearly not seeing the connection. None of them could see the connection, in fact. “They can – take on human guise, making it difficult to identify them?”

“Correct,” Lan Qiren said. “Not only is there a difficulty in identification, there can also be unfortunate sequelae resulting, after an appropriate interval, from an close encounter with an unidentified member of the type.”

They all stared at him blankly.

Bizarrely enough, Nie Huaisang was the first to get it. “Wait,” he said. “Teacher Lan, are you saying someone fucked a yao?”

“No,” Wei Wuxian said, abruptly getting it as well. “He’s saying one of our ancestors fucked a yao.”

“That’s not what he’s saying!” Jiang Cheng exclaimed. “…right?”

They all turned to look at Lan Qiren, who sighed.

“Wei-gongzi is correct,” he said. “I have been deputized by your guardians to inform you of this.”

They were all silently gaping.

“…what type?” Lan Wangji finally asked.

Wei Wuxian sniggered and elbowed him. “What, you want to get in on that?”

Lan Wangji glared at him.

“All different sorts, I’m afraid,” Lan Qiren said briskly. “We will all travel to a secondary house deeper in the mountains and remain there for a month, as I have arranged a special course of studies for each of you to help master any side effects that may arise from your particular bloodline.”

“Why are we going to a different location?” Jin Zixuan asked, sounding wary.

“To protect your privacy. These lessons will cause some of you to awaken your inheritance, which in many instances have physical side effects.”

“Can I grow a tail?” Wei Wuxian asked, interested. “I’d like a nice big fluffy tail –”

Wei Wuxian did not get a tail.

He got plumage.

“I’m a bird?!” Wei Wuxian howled.

“Birdbrain,” Jiang Cheng coughed into his hand. Jin Zixuan, of all people, smothered a giggle – Nie Huaisang didn’t even bother to try to hide his own laughter.

Lan Wangji just stared. His ears were very red – but not quite as red as Wei Wuxian’s feathers.

“It is said that Baoshan Sanren is a Zhuque, a Vermillion Bird,” Lan Qiren said. He did not appear notably surprised. “Her students, it is said, adopt the traits of the phoenix.”

“Why don’t I get wings, then!? Why just feathers?”

“You get the ability to resurrect,” Lan Qiren said. “That is far more valuable. Next!”

Lan Wangji stepped forward unhesitatingly.

A few moments later –

“Lan Zhan!” Wei Wuxian burst out. “You’re so fluffy!”

Lan Wangji’s long white-and-black striped tail twitched, and the curved ears on his head laid back flat against his head. He looked in silent question at his uncle.

“Your brother is also a baihu,” Lan Qiren confirmed, meeting Lan Wangji’s glance with his own. They stared quietly at each other for a long moment, communicating silently; in the end, Lan Wangji bowed deeply and returned back to the group.

Wei Wuxian immediately turned and started chattering with him, reaching out with eager hands to try to touch Lan Wangji’s tail and getting a glare in return – although the tail waving in the air did not seem so repulsed.

“Could I ask what side my bloodline came from?” Jin Zixuan asked when it was his turn. “In advance?”

“Your blood is a mixture of your paternal and maternal lines,” Lan Qiren said. “Each has some elements of the same type; it was what drove your parents to marry.”

Jin Zixuan nodded thoughtfully, and proceeded.

“Why does he get wings?! And a tail!” Wei Wuxian shouted. “Unfair! Unfair!”

“Personally, I like the whiskers more,” Nie Huaisang giggled. “What is he, Teacher Qiren? That nose looks almost like a lion…”

“A pixiu!” Jiang Cheng exclaimed. “The winged lion that can smell treasure!”

“Ah,” Jin Zixuan said. “I understand.”

No one else commented. It did explain a lot about his parents’ marriage, though.

Lan Qiren nodded solemnly. “Return to the group. Next!”

Nie Huaisang looked at Jiang Cheng, who shrugged and strode forward. “Am I also a bird?” he asked, not quite able to conceal the anxious glance at Wei Wuxian.

“You are not,” Lan Qiren said, and changed him while he was still exhaling.

“Dragon!” Nie Huaisang yelled, clapping his hands. “Dragon, dragon! Nice scales, Jiang-xiong! The blue suits your purple clothing perfectly!”

“…is Mistress Jiang like this as well?” Jin Zixuan asked, looking stunned.

“The lesser azure dragon is a Jiang sect inheritance, yes, although there’s a possibility of something else given her mother’s inheritance,” Lan Qiren said meaningfully, and - right. Violet Spider. “Nie Huaisang, stop dithering; it’s your turn.”

“I’m not dithering,” Nie Huaisang complained, shuffling forward. “It’s just going to be embarrassing, that’s all – my brother might be something, but what is someone like me going to be?”

The answer, it turned out, was – a fox.

A nine-tailed fox.

“What,” Nie Huaisang said.

“Doesn’t that make him more powerful than any of us?” Jiang Cheng wondered.

“What,” Nie Huaisang said.

“Trickier, too,” Wei Wuxian reminded him. “Maybe he’s concealing it? No, that seems wrong…”

“What?!”

“Congratulations, Nie-er-gongzi,” Lan Wangji said.

Nie Huaisang turned to stare at Lan Qiren. “There is no way that my da-ge is a fox,” he said flatly. “Absolutely no way.”

Lan Qiren coughed into his sleeve. “You are correct. This inheritance is through your mother’s side.”

“That seems unfair,” Wei Wuxian said with a frown. “All of us have some inheritance, but Chifeng-zun doesn’t?”

“I didn’t say that,” Lan Qiren said. “He has his own inheritance through his mother’s side, which is equally…unique.”

Nie Huaisang crossed his arms. “Which one’s the stronger bloodline?” he demanded.

“His,” Lan Qiren said, and Nie Huaisang relaxed all at once.

“All right, that’s okay then,” he said cheerfully. “Does this have anything to do with why I’m a terrible cultivator?”

“No,” Lan Qiren said. “You’re just lazy and unwilling to apply yourself.”

“…ouch.”

“Spoiled, as well.”

“Ouch.”

“Not to mention –”

“Thank you for your instruction, Teacher Lan,” Nie Huaisang said, hastily saluting and fleeing back to the others, all of whom were laughing at him – even Lan Wangji seemed amused.

“Don’t thank me yet,” Lan Qiren said. “Your lessons have only just begun.”

[mzdsanalysis]

Wei Wuxian’s Actions and Morality:

I am kind of confused on some parts, and i would really appreciate it if someone is willing to discuss it with me. It’s regarding Wei Wuxian, and his exact involvement in the events at the Accident at Qiongqi Path and Bloodbath of Nightless City.

Now, at the accident at Quiongqi path, Wei Wuxian and Wen Ning were just going to Koi tower for the full month celebration to which they had been invited to. Jin Zixun ambushes and threatens to kill him if he doesn’t remove the hundred hole curse. Wei wuxian tries to explain that he didn’t cast the curse and isn’t guilty (admittedly he could have done it in a better way). Jin zixun doesn’t believe him and continues to threaten him. Jin Zixuan appears, tries to diffuse the tension, but still insists that wei wuxian comes along to answer the accusations. Wei wuxian doesn’t believe him (he isn’t wrong to. Guys show up with a whole gang, accuse him of something he didn’t do, and then ask him willingly to come along to “resolve” the issue, though they had spent the past year slandering him and wanting to murder the people he is trying to protect. Just getting into his perspective of things.) Wei wuxian gets angry and accuses Jin zixuan of being on the whole thing, and is agitated and afraid. Which is when he loses control of the resentful energy, which extends to his control of wen ning, and that’s how wen ning, not currently being in control of his body, punches a hole into Jin Zixuan and kills him. Now, automatically, I am going to absolve Wen Ning of any guilt. He is literally NOT in control of his own body. He did that due to the Wei wuxian controlling him with resentful energy. But Wei wuxian also isn’t completely guilty. He was upset, confused, and to some extent scared. But not even subconsciously was he planning or intending to kill Jin zixuan. He lost control over the resentful energy. He put wen ning is a specific state, and then lost control over him, due to not being able to regulate his own emotions during the whole chaos. An accident. An accident that led to someone innocent being killed, but an accident none the less.

Now, I expect different peoples take on this is going to deviate somewhat and that’s fine. I am cool with it. In my opinion, he isn’t completely guilty, but is still responsible. He did not have the intention to kill Jin zixuan, but he DID kill him. It was because of the resentful energy that he was still learning about and how to control it. But if you are going to use a knife after everyone telling you it’s dangerous – although they are doing it just because they don’t want you to have the knife, they want themselves having the knife, while at the same time threating to kill your friends, so you don’t exactly have a choice, but use a freaking knife to, you know, NOT DIE – when you accidently stab someone, it’s still somewhat on you. Lan Zhan had warned him that it could end up badly if he did loose control over the resentful energy and wen ning, and wei wuxian dismissed it. But it was still something he was experimenting with and researching, and hadn’t completely figured out. So it’s not like he didn’t care or was dismissing that it was a bad thing, just that he genuinely didn’t think it would happen. He has been controlling it so far, and everything has been fine, and since he doesn’t exactly have any other options, he will have to continue using it, despite the arguments on the dangers of it.

Now, the bloodbath at Nightless City. Wei wuxian already knows at this point that wen ning and wen qing are dead, and he heads there to atleast collect their ashes and bring them back. When he arrives at the pledge conference, all the sects attending, all 3000, are collected together, and Jin Guangshan makes his speech. He announced that both wens are dead, and then spreads the ashes, the ones Wei ying had come to collect. Then announces that they were going on next day to kill the rest of wens anyway, along with wei ying, to loud applause from the crowd in attendance. Its only then wei wuxian makes his presence known. Before that, he was just listening on. Jin Guangshan makes some more accusations: at Qiongqi Path wei wuxian killed Lanlingjin sect members, the ones jin zixun brought to ambush him, and that wei ying is the one who made wen ning go in a rampage at koi tower (a lie. While jin zixuan’s death at wen ning – actually wei wuxian’s – was an accident, the rampage at koi tower, as we know for a fact, wasn’t an accident (confirmed by MXTX’s interview.) I am not sure if it was mentioned in the book, but from what I can recall, it was xue yang. I might be wrong, but it was still done on Jin Guangshan’s orders. So the deaths of members of the other sect’s members, Lan and Nie, and the others, lie not at wei wuxian’s feet but Jin Guangshan’s. Wei wuxian doesn’t take the accusations silently, and argues back: he was the one who was ambushed, who almost got killed. He has every right to defend himself against the men Jin Zixun brought to attack and kill him. The crowd says he shouldn’t have been so heartless, and in wei wuxian’s own words: no matter what the other sects throw at him, no matter how hard they try to harm and kill him, he is not allowed to touch them, harm their members, defend himself or fight back even if it cost him his life. The sects throw in their final arguments in:

Even if he was fighting back, it doesn’t account for the 130 people who died at koi tower at hands of wen ning.

He shouldn’t defend the wens. They are horrible and evil and guilty and deserve to die.

He is only doing it for his pride, and to prove himself a hero.

He laid the curse on Jin zixun.

Each of them are easily nullified.

Wei wuxian didn’t cause wen’s ning rampage. Jin Guangshan did. The 130 lives are on his own hands, not wei wuxians.

People aren’t guilty by association, especially by family relation. None of the wen remnants have any blood on their hands. They are from wen qing’s branch and are non-combatants, thus they were not involved in any of the Wen Ruhon’s actions. Nor were they involved in at the accident at Qiongqi Path or Koi tower. They are innocent.

The argument about his pride came from their attitude towards him from before his defection. They had admired his powers and were intimated by it, but didn’t like that he belonged to Jiang sect, and wasn’t willing to change his loyalties to belong to them instead. He also dared being defiant and outspoken, and powerful while being a servant’s son, and that’s a crime of it’s own in their eyes. Is wei wuxian’s slightly arrogant? Yes. Is he wrong to be? No, he is very powerful and is aware of what he is capable of. Is that a reason to hate him enough to want to kill him? No! wth

He laid the curse on Jin Zixun. He didn’t. Su she did. Jin Guangshan and Guangyo were aware of that, and still sent zixun to ambush wei ying anyway.

None of their accusation hold any weight to them. Admittedly, we know that because we read the book and these characters aren’t exactly able to do that. The only people here who know about it are Jin Guangshan and Jin Guangyao, who planned the whole thing in the first place. So, I am not going to paint these people as all evil. Some of the sect’s members did die. Some of these people have actually the right to be angry at what happened, though the anger is pointed in the wrong direction.

But the rest of the people are there because of the mob mentality. Because someone is guilty, someone needs to be punished. Here its 50 people and wei ying, one of their own ex members. But because they are not worth the effort, none of it needs to be investigated, to be proven. They have an available party to hold guilty, and it’s far too comfortable for them to put it on their heads rather than find the actually accountable people.

To an extent, it really does seem, by the proofs handfed to them by Jin Guangshan, the wei ying is guilty, That he actually did it. But don’t they owe to the 50 wen members who are about to be slaughtered like cattle, for no other reason than being associated with Wen sect and Wei wuxian, for atleast one of them to look a bit harder, to try a bit harder? I would say so. Wei ying would too. I don’t think the other sects would agree with us, but it’s ancient china society, and modern war ethics and laws aren’t exactly in place to prevent them from doing so.

Back to Wei ying, he gets shot at by a disciple. It actually pierces him, just by luck not in a fatal place but only by a fluke. It was aimed at the heart. The intention to kill was there.  He fires the arrow back, kills back the guy who tried to kill him. I don’t know exactly how anyone could hold him completely in the wrong here. We might not like it, but wei ying is not some pure white angel, nor a pacifist by any means. He is a soldier, a fighter, and he is amidst people who are literally moving to kill him by any means, and he just got an almost kill-shot. He has every right to defend himself, fight back, and honestly, kill back anyone who is trying to kill him. Eye for an eye, punch for a punch. It’s ruthlessly fair, despite sounding harsh. Honestly, it is harsh, but it’s not wrong, wither we like it or not.

He calls forth his dead, the battle begins. Lan Wangji tries to get him to stop, but it doesn’t work. There are definite tones of a sort of deliriousness. I am not exactly sure to how severe it was, but it shows he wasn’t exactly in an emotional and mental fit state. It’s definitely obvious when he tries to make his way to Yanli, and is too worked up to control the corpses crowding around, and the one standing behind Jiang Yanli. He is only able to do it when yanli asks him to stop it all so that she could tell him what she had wanted to tell him. He forces himself to calm down, and is only then able to control the corpses. (I am not saying the deliriousness was severe enough to absolve him of any responsibility he does hold in the event; I am merely acknowledging it’s presence.)

Then Jiang Yanli gets killed by the bow guy’s brother, and that when thing’s go from going downhill to just jumping right off the cliff. But unfortunately, MXTXs writing doesn’t exactly let us to be a witness to the scene, so the curtains close, and we are only allowed to make our assumptions on what happened, who/how/how many exactly died.

The point of this bloody essay is to determine the exactly how much of the event was Wei wuxian involved and responsibly for, so I can examine wei wuxian’s morality with all facts present.

If we go according to the book, wei ying:

Used some pretty grotesque methods to kill in the sunshot campaign

Allowed/ made Wen Ning kill his killers at Qiongqi Path

Accidentally killed Jin Zixuan

Kill Jin Zixun and his men after their ambush

Got in a fight on the way to the pledge conference with a group of cultivators: he broke one’s nose, kicked out his teeth, and made another fall and break his legs (not a severe injury according to lan wangji)

Fought in Bloodbath at Nightless city (after they had made the announcement, they were going ahead with the attack on the wen remnants and wen ying)

I am only including actions that me, anyone else (or the character’s) could possibly hold against him and question his morality with.

Here is where my confusion comes in. Now, I made the mistake of reading the novel only after finishing the tv show. As we know, the tv show took some liberties with the plotline and altered a few things. I honestly like a lot of the changes. Usually when tv shows make changes like that, it doesn’t always work out and it kind of depletes the essence of the story, but they actually managed it quite well. But one of the key changes were the plotlines around the Qiongqi Path accident and nightless city.

Divergences in the tv show:

At Qiongqi Path, Su she’s flute is what makes Wen Ning kill Jin Zixuan (+ Jin Zixun) rather than wei wuxian loosing control due to his emotions.

At the bloodbath, Su She playing the flute is what stopped wei wuxian from halting the battle and loose control of the fierce corpses.

(+ by the time of the battle, the wen remnants were already dead, so wei wuxian’s fight becomes more about revenge and grief rather than to protect them)

Basically, they abbreviated a lot of his action to other people. Which I understand, I guess. You are less in the character’s head while watching the tv show rather than when you are reading the book, and for the audience to develop a better and more empathetic relationship with a lead character, liberties needed to be taken to make him more sympathetic.

My debate on his morality, hence, is more focused on the book character rather the tv show (honestly, since even his only 2 serious offences are not even his fault in the show.) but in the book, they kind of are. He did kill Jin Zixuan: accidentally. He had no intention whatsoever of him doing it; not subconsciously or consciously. He was just feeling agitated and angry and viewed Jin Zixuan as a threat, and Wen Ning, who was in his fierce corpse state, interpreted as a need to kill jin Zixuan.

The only way you could put this against him is if you hold him responsible of using such an unstable and dangerous form of cultivation/magic. But he already gave an answer for that, which none of us can argue against: he didn’t have choice. He never did with demonic cultivation.

He started using it in the Burial mounds to survive and make it out.

He used it to seek justice for his sects massacre (go ahead and debate the need for that if you need to. I don’t)

He used it to fight in the Sunshot campaign, and he was a MAJOR force in the campaign, and a enormous contributor to it’s success. Could they still have won if he hadn’t been with them? Maybe, sure. But if there was any risk to loosing them, and wen sect remained undefeated, Jiang chen and yanli and wei wuxian were as good as dead. No way they or the other sects who had raised arms against wen sect would have been allowed to live or survive.

He used it to save Wen Ning and other wen remnants: war prisoners who were undergoing severe abuse and were basically being killed off. For no reason than being wens. Yes, I know it was common in ancient china to kill off the whole family. But it’s not right. Wei wuxian doesn’t think so. And neither do i.

He used it to bring back Wen Ning for Wen qing.

-  I don’t know where I read it that he brought him back for protection or as a weapon. He didn’t. He was pissed at what they did to him, and brought him to allow him to tell wei ying who had kill him then allowed him to get his revenge. He than made him sentient because he had promise wen qing & the other wen members that he could bring him back. He promised his sister that he could bring her brother back. That’s why.

He used it to protect burial mounds and the wen remnants: A bunch of non-combatant members that he had grown to love and care about as family. As you can see here:

“ He turned around, knowing that it’d be a long time before he’s get to see the people he was familiar with again.

But…right now, wasn’t he on his way to seeing people he was familiar with as well?”

He used it to fight back during the ambush. He doesn’t have a gold core; He literally cant wield a sword to defend himself. So he uses it to summon corpses to fight against Jin Zixun’s men.

·       He uses it to fight in the Bloodbath of Nightless City, after Jin Guangshan announced that they were going ahead with killing the rest of the wens and wei ying, and the attending crowd voiced out their excitement over the prospect.

 Second, the bloodbath at nightless city. Yes, it was a very brutal battle with many casualties. But these people were planning to kill him and the wens. They had decided it by the time he spoke up. It was a definite thing that was going to happen.

 Now you can argue against the use of violence, and need of it. But while I am very anti-war myself, I still hold to the belief that there are some fights that are worth fighting for, that need to be fought for. The wen remnants were innocent, and no one, NO ONE, had the right to decide they needed to die just because they were wens. They were innocent people. They had not actively killed or participated in the massacre that the main wen sect had conducted, and being blood relations to the actual guilty party is not an indication of being guilty too.

You could also argue the value of 3000 lives against 50. I have seen people do it, and write metas about. But whats the value of 1 life or 10 or 50? How are we supposed to decide who deserve to live more? How is that anyway moral?

Wei wuxian didn’t act to choose one group of lives over the other. He did it to protect himself and the people he cared about, and that meant fighting against anyone who was actively intending to kill and harm them, and was an acting threat. As human being who, like any other being, has the right to defend himself, to protect himself, to survive and be able to live. 3000 people wanting to kill him, and wens doesn’t take away his right to do that. There isn’t a rule that if enough people want you dead and murdered, rightly or not, you should just let them go ahead with it and turn your belly up. That…just doesn’t make sense?

I am in acceptance that he is a grey character, with his flaws and his merits. What I am confused about is exactly how much black and white went into making his grey. Maybe because I watched tv show and read the novel at the about same time, I feel like I am missing something. Did I miss anything? Did he do anything else? Am I wrong? What do other people think? Where do you guys lie on your judgment of wei wuxian as person and on his moral stance?

[ultfreakme]

First point: I agree, JC had no issues with DC during the Sunshot campaign. LWJ was the only one who figured it was a bad for WWX & would not end well. DC gave Lotus Pier power which they sorely needed, it's the reason they stood a chance against the Wens which led to helping restore Lotus Pier. The sword thing is far from inconsequential- swords are the FIRST thing the Wens took away from the sects & they are also among the first things they earned back in order to fight back. Swords are important, it shows your ability and standing as a cultivator, it's a matter of pride. It became even more important for WWX when the remaining sects began to fear that WWX's going to turn against them and abuse his power(an unfair assumption). But they were all rearing to slander WWX and JC asking him to carry it & revert to regular cultivation was to a) protect WWX from further scrutiny, b) Show that JC actually had his second-in-command's respect, which thereby leads to c) reconstructing Yungmeng Jiang's image as a great sect. JC was first-hand witness to WWX's drinking and downward spiral where he fully neglected his duties as senior disciple, he knew very well the DC was doing something to him and was asking him to drop it even before JZX.

Second point: Again I agree, LWJ prioritizes what is morally correct over what people will think of him. But that's because LWJ's not going to become sect leader. I think if you've noticed, all the inheriting kids were under pressure and were on a tight leash by the elders around them, it became worse amongst sect leaders(so that's Nie Mingjue who was in the campaign and used the saber despite knowing what it's doing to him, Lan Xichen barely speaking up for the Wens & mostly being witness & doing little, Jin Zixuan having to grow up and reach out to WWX, Jin Guangyao who had to bend over backwards to get approval). It was always the younger siblings & members who aren't inheriting that suffered lesser consequences, went unnoticed by elders for the most part, and moved more freely- not entirely but had a lot more room for doing whatever they wanted(Nie Huaisang, Wei Wuxian, Lan Wangji).

If LQR died, LWJ would be closer to being sect heir. He CANNOT do nothing. Sect elders and the rest of the sects would hone in on what LWJ's gonna do, what LXC is going to do. If LWJ says WWX is not at fault, he's dooming himself to being labelled as a co-conspirator of sorts with WWX, or he's going to drag down the whole Lan sect with him(why is the representative of Lan sect DEFENDING the guy who killed their elder??). Would LWJ go against LXC on this? Is LWJ going against LXC on bringing justice to his beloved uncle who raised him? Does LXC's trust in LWJ wrt to WWX extend that far? Will he be picking his uncle or his brother? JGY and NMJ would definitely be pressuring LXC to take action against WWX. It'd be LWJ vs. every cultivation sect and potentially his own brother.

Third point: Jiang Cheng also knew WWX wasn't doing it on purpose. Iirc he asks WWX something like "you said you could control it!" so atp, he knows WWX can't but he's begging him to try. This doesn't change anything though because JC had warned him multiple times. I'd argue JC knows WWX's moral character better & knows how he works on a deeper level, & understands how those mentalities get him into trouble. Because they literally grew up together and JC was trailing around him being like "hey don't do that, it's a bad idea".

WWX's morality and his tendency for self-sacrifice has fucked him over multiple times, JC is aware of this and was trying to protect him, trying to make him stop so they don't gain the ire of Yu Ziyuan or any other person who wants to wish him harm. LWJ doesn't know the extent of WWX's self-destructive martyring until way too late. JC knows what prioritizing morality will do to WWX and was trying to stop it. The WWX-DC situation is a natural escalation of their childhood disagreements.

So JC knows sure, WWX owes the Wens something, he's being the hero again. But that doesn't mean anything to him when the guy who promised to be by his side, his childhood best friend and practically brother is killing himself over it and has now dragged everyone else in too without regard for what being that recklessly self-sacrificial does.

LWJ would probably have the same realization too in that moment.

And sure, LWJ may not attack him the way JC(presumably) does by rallying all the troops. He doesn't find it in his heart to do that to WWX but he could fight him in order to stop him from furthering his DC. Likely a one v one private fight away from the sects (these two aren't strangers to arguing and fighting e/o). He'd be sect leader if LXC is gone and he could choose a "no, he's mine to deal with path" so that he can take him to Gusu Lan and figure out what the heck is happening to him. But we don't know HOW WWX dies. One thing common across all adaptations is WWX's exact cause of death is mystery but it's usually self-inflicted or his DC consumes him or that's at least the implication, with rumours attributing the kill to JC(again, we don't know, he led the campaign, no account of direct causation). It is entirely possibly that WWX's death will occur in LWJ's presence, no matter what.

JC torturing random Demonic Cultivators was first of all, a rumor. Second, even if he did, every demonic cultivator that wasn't WWX was fucked up. DC practitioners were rarely the good guys, they were usually pawns and were taking up the path to gain more power. DC doesn't have a valiant reputation, like it's literally seen as the Bad Guy Power That You Shouldn't Do. Even if JC potentially tortured innocents on suspicion of being WWX(unlikely, he does the Zidian test first on 'MXY', he still kept Chenqing, he was badly communicating to WWX about just wanting an explanation for wtf was happening post-resurrection), I don't care. He's a traumatized fictional character who takes bad decisions. WWX was the OG torturer in the duo anyways & he was massacring Wens by the hundreds. If Wen Qing(who was posted in LP at a watchtower and is the favored niece of WRH) and Wen Ning(he was a cultivator) are seen as innocent, what's to say there weren't more innocents that WWX was killing during Sunshot campaign just because they wore the Wen colors? We've established not all Wens are bad multiple times, are the Wen remnants WWX rescued uniquely innocent(exclude LSZ, not talking about the kids)? Or were they just the group WQ & WN were attached to and that's why WWX actually slowed down to assess them?

The point of this little exercise is trying to figure out how much emotional impact LWJ would experience and the freedom he would have to do what he wants in the event that he is the lone survivor of his family. It's not about comparing who'd do the more morally correct thing when put in this scenario.

Jiang Cheng represents the system, but he's also a victim of old cycles. He has no choice, and by the end of it, he gets an inconclusive ending where his position as Sect Leader and all the sacrifices he made amounts to nothing because WWX, his old family, is now gone. If LWJ was sect heir and was put in the position JC was in at the time, he too would've been victim to the system and despite his desires, would've been entirely incapable of doing what he wants. He wouldn;t do exactly what JC did but he'd be following the same basic outline. LWJ gets to make better choices, because he has the freedom to. JC doesn't. Take that freedom away and LWJ would be similar to JC, or actually, LWJ might end up like his dad- in love with a person who killed elders and because of love, is forced to trap their lover and live in misery. LWJ would be forced to become WWX's....well if not enemy, at least someone WWX doesn't like.

Also agreed on there being right and wrong in-story despite the complexity but JC wasn't entirely wrong for reacting the way he did based on the circumstances he was in. Imo JC had like 90% justifiable actions;

He tried to get WWX to be low-key and a non-threat so the sects would leave him alone

Visited him and discussed with WWX a deal where WWX gets to remain in Yiling without issue or question from the greater sects

He's the only person who properly, explicitly spoke FOR the Wens

Still kept in touch with him after the defection, took JYL to see him, likely was involved in making JZX invite WWX to Jin Ling's one-month celebration

He did what he could. And it didn't pay off and he got no answers till the very end. He fucked up along the way but again, idc about that. LWJ would've also made bad decisions if he was put in the ridiculously tough spot of sect leader with the weight of his family's death on his shoulders.

Any time JC antis start coming for him and his reaction to what WWX did, I always want to ask them to do the "Lan Clan Test". Basically, replace the Jiang family deaths with Lan family deaths. Instead of Jin Zixuan dying by Wen Ning's hand, say it's Lan Qiren. At Nightless City, imagine it's Lan Xichen who's mourning his uncle that's searching for Lan Wangji, and WWX accidentally kills LXC.

Like really picture Lan Xichen dying in Lan Wangji's arms, telling him heartfelt words assured of his death and Lan Wangji's like "Hey please fix this, please stop this" to Wei Wuxian and WWX is like "wait wait I can fix this I swear I swear!".

Okay how would you expect Lan Wangji to react to that? Ngl if he still somehow thinks of Wei Wuxian as entirely blameless and holds zero resentment towards WWX after that, I would lose my respect for LWJ and I don't think LWJ would react like that anyways. The person you love whom you warned against taking this path has chosen to disregard anything you say(pr even his closest people like Jiang Cheng say) and has now lost all control and has killed all that's left of your family. Who WOULDN'T lose it at least a little? Who wouldn't hold resentment or anger or frustration?

Jiang Cheng made mistakes but he's not uniquely evil. He was right to have felt anger towards Wei Wuxian because bro in his eyes, Wei Wuxian COULD control that. Only we as audience know the extent of loss of control. And even if JC realized WWX can't control it, he begged WWX time and time again to stop Demonic Cultivation. Trying to flatten this situation into a "he's wrong, he's right, case closed" is the worst thing you can do in MDZS.

[gusu-emilu]

miscellaneous MDZS/CQL fic recs (AO3)

broken into sections: Character Study (-esque), Wangxian, Jiang Cheng ships, Yi City (or Yi City-adjacent), Humor/Crack, and Other

Character Study (-esque)

Wei Wuxian

my eyes got used to the darkness by @curiosity-killed (M, Sunshot Campaign era, 4.4k): The funny thing, the thing that makes his lips curl in a grin and his hands shake with laughter, is that all these cultivators with their lofty principles and noble ambitions can’t even notice the ghost among them. Sure, they shiver at his presence and flinch from his cold hands, but not one of them puts it together. Lan Wangji chases him with healing music and Nie Mingjue frowns solemnly at his dancing corpses—and he laughs and laughs and laughs because they just don’t get it. Emilu's commentary: CW for mild body horror.

Jiang Cheng

in our respective ways by @veliseraptor (T, Sunshot Campaign era, 5.7k): Jiang Cheng has his golden core back. But he seems to have lost Wei Wuxian.

You Know I've Fallen, but I Know How High by villainais (M, Post-WWX's death, 2.7k): Jiang Cheng loses both of his siblings in Nightless City. Minutes apart. He trudges home to Yunmeng with one body, holds a private funeral with a single coffin, and allows himself to wear his mourning robes for ten days—permits himself not a single day more. He is still too young and inexperienced, an unfledged boy to the cultivation world, and he is rebuilding Lotus Pier on his own. He will not gift the other sect leaders the satisfaction of seeing him vulnerable. Propriety be damned. Hanguang-jun emerges from his seclusion wearing white. He does not stop.

Nie Huaisang

it deepens like a coastal shelf by @wolffyluna (M, Post-WWX's death, 21.6k): When Nie Huaisang meets Mo Xuanyu, he realises two things quickly. One, this kid is so doomed. Two, this kid would be a great unwitting spy in his plans to bring down Jin Guangyao. It would be so easy to get into Mo Xuanyu's confidences, and so easy to get him to tell him anything he needs. ...only thing is, that wouldn't be very good for Mo Xuanyu's life expectancy. But he'll do it anyway, if it helps him avenge his brother. A fic about man handing on misery to man, the parallels and cycles in the relationships between Jin Guangyao and Nie Huaisang and Mo Xuanyu, and the lengths these characters will go to meet their goals and if there are lines they won't cross.

Lan Xichen

an old man in dried mouths by @tenacious-minds (T, Post-Canon, 3.3k): Xichen thinks. The tea had always stained the crockery red. Emilu's commentary: Lan Xichen and Jin Ling talk about Jin Guangyao.

can you be a quiet man? by @basket-of-loquats (Unrated, Post-Canon, 70.7k+) But something inside him snapped at Guanyin Temple-- and Lan Wangji watched it happen, saw the exact moment that Lan Xichen went from broken to shattered, when he buried his sword into Jin Guangyao’s chest, when his sworn brother stared up at him with wide eyes, blood dripping from his mouth, when he pulled himself closer and closer and closer-- When he whispered "Why don’t you die with me?", and Lan Xichen hadn’t argued. Emilu's commentary: Lan Xichen / therapy with a side of Wangxian.

Wen Ning

breathless (but i'll pretend to breathe for you) by swordsainted (T, Burial Mounds Settlement era, 4.1k): Wei Wuxian is silent for a long minute, and then he looks at Wen Ning, something raw and open and hurting behind his eyes. “I’m sorry,” he says again, softer this time, and Wen Ning shakes his head, still smiling. “You’ve protected everyone. How could I hate you for that?”

Mo Xuanyu

stand at the pit's mouth by @eldritch-elrics (M, MXY's death, 9.3k): The dreams and regrets of a man on the edge of oblivion. Emilu's commentary: Surrealist/absurdist screenplay.

Wangxian

I would wait for a thousand years by bleuett (T, Immortality Post-Canon, 10.4k): During the worst of winter, a traveler comes to stay at Lan Wangji's inn. He wears a red ribbon in his hair. “Do you see the rabbit?” Wei Ying asks and points at the moon. “That’s the moon rabbit, he helps make Chang’e more immortality elixir. He keeps Chang’e company.” “I do not wish the rabbit for company,” Lan Wangji says tightly. “You are the one I want by my side.” “And I’m here, Lan Zhan. If you go to the moon, I’ll follow you, I’ll always be here now.” Emilu's commentary: Lan Wangji meets Wei Wuxian centuries later and does not remember the past. There is also an excellent podfic by @forgotten-envies

Look Not With The Eyes by Spodumene (G, Post-Canon, 28.1k): Wei Wuxian returns from his travels to join Lan Wangji on a routine night hunt, but when things take an unexpected turn, Wei Wuxian will have to fight for what he's really looking for. Emilu's commentary: Case fic.

All In A Good Time by bigboobedcanuck (E, Post-Canon, 8k): Lan Zhan is struck by a curse that brings him intense physical pain unless he's being touched. He is stoic and tries to hide his suffering. Wei Wuxian is worried and protective. Perhaps they will finally admit their feelings?

Across a Lake of Glass by Zizzani (E, Figure Skating AU, 92.2k+): Each year, Gusu Skating Club runs a camp for only the most elite athletes of each region. This year brings a new skater from the Yunmeng Club who wears skates lined with red and a smile made for war. He skates like a demon. Figure skating au featuring lots of healthy rivalry, pre and post-competition bonding, and an inexplicable fall from grace through the eyes of the media.

Jiang Cheng Ships

Chengqing

display my heart for you to see by @souridealist (M, Post-Canon Wen Qing Lives AU, 5.5k): Jiang Cheng has his own secrets. Some of them are part of the unburied past; some of them are about how long it's been since anyone has touched him.

while I'm in this body by @souridealist (E, Post-Lotus Pier Massacre, 3.9k): For just a few minutes, alone in her office, Wen Qing allows her self-control to slip enough to cry. It's just her luck that that's when Jiang Cheng comes looking for her. Emilu's commentary: Femdom.

Chengning

it may be that it doesn't matter by @wildehacked (T, Post-Canon, 6.6k) “Are you crying?” Jiang Wanyin asks him, and Wen Ning frowns. Pats his cheek with one hand. “No.” Emilu's commentary: Holy Grail of Chengning.

Whatever It Is by morau (E, Post-Canon, 20.5k): It starts, as with a lot of things, with a very poorly thought out prank, courtesy of Wei Wuxian. Emilu's commentary: A LOT of sex and even more emotions lol

won't run away (we're here to stay) by @qi-ling (T, Post-Canon, 3.5k): "Please don't feel any pressure to accept this, and you can take as much time as you need to think about it." It's a set of robes, in shades of deep purple, complete with leather bracers. Cut in a different style than that of the disciples or household staff, closer to the understated robes Wen Ning typically wears. He reaches out to feel the fabric. His deadened nerves can't sense delicate textures well, but even he can tell it's of a quality on par to Wanyin's own wardrobe. This is startling enough coming from Jiang Wanyin, but then Wen Ning notices the belt. In particular, the silver bell in the shape of a lotus affixed to it. Only recognized members of the Jiang sect may wear the clarity bell. Or, Jiang Cheng has an invitation for Wen Ning.

Zhancheng

By Proxy by @veliseraptor (E, Post-WWX's death, 12k): Jiang Cheng and Lan Wangji, looking for comfort in all the wrong places. Emilu's commentary: Hate sex that made me cry

Yi City (or Yi City-adjacent)

Songxuexiao

Heaven Has A Road But No One Walks It by @silvysartfulness (M, Post-Yi City arc Canon Divergence, 123k+): One of the most complex spells of demonic cultivation the world has seen is brought to fruition, and Xiao Xingchen draws his first shaking breaths in over seven years. This, it turns out, is only the start of his problems. Emilu's commentary: Pretty sure everyone already knows about Silvy's happy songxuexiao road trip fic but it has to be here.

Xue Yang & Lan Xichen

Hours On Empty series by @lady-of-the-lotus (M to E, Post-Canon, 57.8k+): AU where Wei Wuxian never came to Yi City and Xue Yang is still running around post-canon disguised as Xiao Xingchen. "Fractured Ice" - Xue Yang whisks a nihilistic Lan Xichen off on a murder roadtrip to raise Xiao Xingchen and Meng Yao from the grave. Because that will solve all of their problems, right? "Control" - "Fractured Ice" retold from Xue Yang's pov. "A Thousand Miles In Its Light" - Alternate ending to "Fractured Ice" and "Control"

Songxiao with Xuexiao Flashbacks

Nothing Beside Remains by @eldritch-elrics (T, Post-Yi City arc Canon Divergence, 21.9k): And Xiao Xingchen is dressed in dark clothing that is not his, and his sight is all of a sudden sharp in a way that it has never been before, and Xue Yang is not here. “He wouldn’t,” he breathes. “No, he wouldn’t do that. He’s too—” “He’s too what?” Wei Wuxian steps a foot closer, face hard-set. “Too cruel? Or too kind?” Or: Xue Yang uses the Sacrifice Summon on Xiao Xingchen. Xiao Xingchen lives with the consequences.

Humor/Crack

The Hangover: A pre-wedding Dramedy series by natcat5 (M, Modern AU, 51.6k): It is not a bachelor party. That was made clear on all the invitations. It is a congratulatory get together for Jin Zixuan, attended by his family, the family of the bride, and the young masters of the other two families in their circle. The gathering is not to go later than midnight, everyone must drink in moderation, and no one is allowed to be hungover tomorrow. Wei Wuxian had promised Yanli, three fingers in the air. Jiang Cheng had rolled his eyes, but promised as well. Saturday morning, Nie Huaisang and Jiang Cheng wake up alone in a hotel room, missing shoes, phones, and almost all their memories of what in the world happened last night. Also missing: Wei Wuxian, brother of the bride, Lan Wangji, esteemed guest, Lan Xichen, esteemed guest, Jin Zixun, cousin of the groom, Jin Guangyao, brother and best-man, Jin Zixuan, THE GROOM, who is due at his bride-to-be's house in six hours. That's plenty of time to find everyone...right?

Jiang Cheng Loves Jar Jar Bombad Mui by @lady-of-the-lotus (G, Post-Canon, 1.7k) Jar Jar Binks washes up on the shores of Lotus Pier. Can he win the lonely Jiang Cheng's proud heart? Neb neb answer is yesa. Emilu's commentary: There's also a podfic by @aowyn. Yes, with a Jar Jar voice.

Other

Nie Huaisang & Wen Ning

By Name by nirejseki (G, Post-Canon, 1.3k): After the traumatic events in the now-collapsed temple, Wen Ning lingered behind and unexpectedly saw Nie Huaisang, the undisputed victor of an all-around terrible evening, sitting on the steps of the temple, looking exhausted and miserable, as if he’d won nothing at all. Wen Ning found himself drifting over to him.

Jiang Yanli & Nie Mingjue

utility by magicites (G, Arranged Marriage AU, 2.3k): Jiang Yanli and Nie Mingjue's wedding is a political one — a gesture of unity between their Sects. A way for her parents to finally get some use out of the plain-faced sham of a cultivator they call a daughter. “Jiang-guniang,” Nie Mingjue says, and the formality in such a setting as intimate as their wedding chambers startles her, “I don’t wish to bed you. Or any other woman, for that matter. It isn’t fair for you to live alone because of my own preferences.” She rests her hand on his arm, cool relief flooding her body like water on a summer afternoon. “If it helps, I don’t feel desire for men,” she whispers.

Jin Guangyao / Nie Huaisang

Pulling Strings by @eldritch-elrics (E, Post-WWX's death, 5k): Nie Huaisang, quite drunk, turns up at Jin Guangyao’s door one night with an unexpected request. Emilu's commentary: Nie Huaisang knows Jin Guangyao killed Nie Mingjue. This interaction is more symbolic than anything else...

[pumpkinpaix]

Almost every Popular Jiang Cheng ship is a case of Pair the Spares 🍵 (jc/nhs, jc/lxc, etc)

strongly agree | agree | neutral | disagree | strongly disagree

alas, despite my intense post-canon xicheng (friendship?) agenda (which you can read about in this post here!), I do think this is often true. i will admit i feel this particularly wrt sangcheng because i just don’t think their relationship is compelling in canon, not even between the lines. it takes A Lot of work to convince me that jc and nhs would be a good or interesting romantic couple, because i just don’t see them connecting deeply outside of their gusu schooldays. their friendship feels largely superficial to me, even during that period, resulting mostly from proximity and chance. it’s not that I think they don’t get along or that they couldn’t have become better friends later! but with the canon trajectory, i don’t buy it. i’d honestly be really happy to read modern aus with them becoming really good friends over time. or just like, with them as established friends! I like that a lot. romantically, though, I don’t think they’re a good fit either.

i think they have very different personalities, and incompatible priorities for a relationship like that. honestly, the one thing in canon that really gets me out regarding sangcheng is the fact that nie huaisang was willing to gamble with the juniors’ lives during the yi city arc. he deliberately lured a group of inexperienced teenagers into a very dangerous situation that could have easily resulted in their collective deaths -- as wei wuxian said, if they all died, that would’ve just been pinned on jin guangyao as well. regardless of whether or not wangxian were able to keep them safe, it’s still a net win for nie huaisang’s revenge plot. that group of juniors included jin ling, and i think that would be deeply unforgivable to jiang cheng. i don’t think they couldn’t have an interesting and friendly relationship as adults post-canon, but I think this is absolutely a line in the sand. nie huaisang treated jin ling as expendable, when jin ling is quite literally the only immediate surviving family member left to jiang cheng, and I do not think that’s an obstacle they can overcome. canonically, I mean.

in terms of personality, I think jiang cheng is much more concerned with propriety and respectability than nie huaisang is, and I think there would probably also be some level of disdain and bitterness within jiang cheng towards nie huaisang’s behavior regarding everything that happens in the present day arc. whether or not it’s justified is another question, but I think it’s easy to see where jiang cheng might find huaisang’s actions pretty out of pocket in proportion to what he suffered. jiang cheng lost nearly everything: most of his sect, his sister, his parents, his brother, ascended before adulthood, fought on the front lines of a vicious, 2.5-year war, and at the end of it all, was left holding a nephew he wasn’t even slightly prepared to raise in the midst of his overwhelming grief. and what did he do? he put his sect back together, he raised his goddamn nephew, and he hunted down demonic cultivators. did he do the best job? probably not, but he did try.

we know huaisang’s father died due to wen ruohan’s actions, but we know pretty much nothing about his mother. is she still alive? maybe. idk. but in terms of casualties of sunshot like, nie huaisang was Not the leader -- for all we know, nie mingjue sent him far away from the front lines because he was a weak cultivator to protect him -- the nie sect remains quite strong post-sunshot, is never ravaged by the wens (mdzs canon okay, don’t fight me on that one), and huaisang HAD a brother longer than jiang cheng even had his childhood. and nie huaisang’s reaction to losing his brother was a complex, fucky revenge plot that put innumerable people in danger and was very much unconcerned about whether or not huaisang was about to inflict the very same pain that prompted his revenge quest on others. imagine if jin ling had actually died. imagine the other juniors’ brothers and family’s devastation if they had died. nie huaisang behaved very cruelly in reaction to his grief, and I think jiang cheng would find that enormously selfish in some ways. like, bro, you still had a sect. you didn’t have to shoulder the responsibility of leadership as a teenager. you were not tortured by the wens. what in the everliving fuck is wrong with you that you thought this was the best course of action in response to losing your brother?

is this a fair judgment to make on huaisang? not really, but it’s the one that I personally feel like jiang cheng would make once he were filled in on some of the details. after all, jiang cheng has never really been known for being particularly fair with his opinions lol. all of that is also not to say that i hate huaisang! I think he’s a really interesting character, and one that’s a Lot of fun. i just don’t think he and jiang cheng are particularly suited to one another.

regarding what nie huaisang thinks of jiang cheng, i admit i don’t think nie huaisang thinks much about jiang cheng at all.

i have also been returning to my aro jiang cheng interpretations, mostly based on like, his list of qualities for a perfect wife, which reads like a laundry list of “qualities people have told me an ideal wife should have and also some qualities i see in my sister” as opposed to anything based in personal taste. jiang cheng is repeatedly shown to not particularly value the opinions or company of women other than his sister (lotus pod extra lol poor jiang cheng really has Zero game), and spends a lot of his time thinking about status and political alliances (see: how he talks about mianmian) as opposed to attraction. and i think that’s also quite an interesting angle on him -- after all, all of his important relationships are shown to be familial/platonic in nature.

anyways, this just became an impromptu meta on like, the nature of jiang cheng’s character, i guess, but one final thought (knife) that I have and have been itching to write into dialogue for like a year -- at some point, post-canon, when jiang cheng’s marriage prospects are really just like. basically nonexistent and he himself finds he’s not even particularly bothered by it, I want him to have a realization when he thinks back on his list just like oh, I see. I never wanted a wife. I just wanted my sister back. I wanted my family.

:’D

(ko-fi)

🍵 ((un)popular) opinions meme

[heavymetalchemist]

I'm still marinating over a post I saw about how Jiang Cheng's character arc is stagnation, that he doesn't have character development, that becoming a sect leader and etc. didn't fundamentally change him. And the thing is I love Jiang Cheng but I don't *totally* disagree, but like... what is character development?

This was based more on the novel, which to be fair I have not finished, but the point they made was that JC was still resentful and just stewing in resentment for 16 years and still blaming WWX for everything. I disagree with that (gave himself up to the Wens? If you do this I can't protect you? Here have Chenqing back??? Right in front of my nephew when the last time you had Chenqing in front of a family member she ended up dying????) but it IS true that in the sixteen year gap we don't really know what JC was up to aside from raising Jin Ling and rumors of torturing demonic cultivators (which I'm not going to get into but a) they are rumors and b) even if it's true I am not convinced that's like... bad) but he is still recognizably JC after the gap - still competitive (see hilarious bit on Dafan mountain of "what do you MEAN I'm not your type?") and proud and prone to anger, still with that instinct to lash out, still struggling to express his emotions in words.

But! Because of the big gap in time, we have all of the cast outside of WWX sort of on standby until he comes back (with the exception of, arguably, Nie Mingjue, because we see a little post-WWX-death through empathy).

So really... aren't they ALL stagnant?

Lan Wangji remains pining for Wei Wuxian. He does not change. He wears mourning white. He gets drunk and brands himself because all he thinks about is WWX. Is this that much different than JC stewing over Chenqing as he polishes it? Are they not both searching for WWX? How has LWJ changed during the story? He wanted WWX when they were young and he wants him now that he's back. He was in love with him then and he's in love with him now. He wanted to take him back to Gusu then and he does that now.

Lan Xichen is still the First Jade, still the diplomat, still the gentleman. How is he any different, except for at the very end when he realizes the depth of Jin Guangyao's betrayal? (and to be fair to this other post they did say that JC has the opportunity to change post-canon because of the core reveal, but my point is that also applies to LXC).

Sect Leader Yao sure hasn't changed.

Lan Qiren hasn't changed.

I think from when we meet Jin Ling to the end, we see some growth for him, but not... really? Like, does his *character* change or does he just now also have the information that his xiao shushu was lying to him and that WWX is maybe not a complete demon - although in novel-verse, there is no second flautist, so his father's death really IS WWX's fault because he DID lose control.

Lan Sizhui remains a tiny angel. Lan Jingyi remains loud.

I think that really the only characters that do have actual character arcs are Wei Wuxian, Nie Huaisang (which is also majority offscreen but you can't tell me HE didn't change), arguably Jin Guangyao depending on how much worse you think he got, arguably Xue Yang if you think he had an actual change of heart about XXC, and Jin Zixuan (who manages to take his head out of his ass and realize how great Yanli is).

Like I don't think even Wen Ning, who becomes a fierce corpse, really... changes? Yes he's a fierce corpse now but he is also still this gentle soul who got way too attached to WWX because he was nice to him that one time.

So it's interesting to think about, how this story with all these complex characters is really mostly made up of personalities and people that are mostly stagnant, mainly because of the time gap that we don't really explore. It's weird to have all this character development "offscreen," is the thing, so we kind of need most of these people to be "on hold" for when WWX comes back or else it has to all be explained.

Which is why @howdydowdy's post about the Case of the Suspiciously Well-Adjusted Brother is so fucking hilarious.

[randomidiocyncrazies]

📓

okay, so. you know i love my bickering dumbass juniors in MDZS, so i'm still putting the LingYi future fic together...

they're in their early 20s

Jin Ling is dealing with the pressure to 'meet eligible young ladies' from multiple fronts

about the marriage thing: there are at least 2-3 different factions within Jin clan alone, not to mention his jiujiu being concerned as well. I figured some Jin clan members would push for an engagement with an affiliated minor clan, while others might want to strengthen Jin ties to the Nie clan, especially after... everything that went down in MDZS. maybe a few Jin sect members are in favor for a match with the Lans, but those are few in number. Meanwhile, I think Jiang Cheng would prefer it if his nephew got together with someone from Yunmeng Jiang, because he could vet the candidates and ensure they're good for his nephew (which is of course read by the other clans/Jin clan in particular that he wants even more influence into Jin sect internal affairs)

meanwhile, Jin Ling and Lan Jingyi have kinda sorta been courting each other for the past year(?) or so, but it's informal and thus 'wouldn't count' or 'be legitimate' in their sect's eyes (that that's putting aside the fact that they're both men) — they're toying with the idea of making it a formal courtship, but the current political situation makes it very bad timing

ANYWAY. that is the backdrop of the fic. Lan Jingyi visits Lanling as part of his usual outings/游歷 on the way back home (he's taking the scenic route okay). the datepals meet up and discuss tentative plans

before LJY leaves for Gusu, a Jin sect member report to Jin Ling that there's been a rash of deaths & kidnappings on the edge of Jin sect territory. The witness accounts are contradictory, and they’re still working out what could be responsible. 

Jin Ling wants to go scope out the mystery himself, but it’s difficult for him to take off and leave—so LJY goes to check it out for him. however, this is still Lanling Jin’s territory, and other Jin elders are adamant to send representatives of their own/provide a learning experience for their own junior disciples etc

tl;dr Lan Jingyi hangs out with a bunch of juniors from Jin + affiliated sects, as well as 1-2 Jin chaperones

OR Jin Ling does go investigate himself, but the Jin elders are Very Reluctant so it’s Jin Ling + Lan Jingyi + some Jin sect chaperones/disciples to ostensibly protect Jin Ling

I have no idea what I want the culprits of the supernatural mystery to be, and i don’t really know what the resolution to the conflict(s) look like? like, i do have some vague ideas for the culprits (one only thing I’m firm on is that there is more than one monster responsible) but I  want some thematic connection between the supernatural stuff and the challenges LingYi are dealing with. 

which leads me to the main issue of the fic: right now i haven’t come up with how Jin Ling can refuse to marry a woman/produce heirs without destabilizing the Jin clan, and still have it feel realistic. the best i could do is to put off talks of marriage (he’s just 20-21 in the fic, he’s still young), with the possibility of changing Jin sect inheritance rules (like. part of the tragedy of the previous generation for Jin clan touches on their inheritance laws), but that’s not really a definitive happy ending? so i guess the resolution to the non-supernatural part of the story depends on how much suspension of disbelief i can talk myself into lol

[ask me about a fanfic that I have not written but constantly daydream about]

[songofclarity]

'Wen Clan member kills/harms Wen Ruohan to save the day' AU are so uninspired. Do people just forget Wen Ruohan is not the founder of the Wen Sect and all its problems? That he is not, in fact, the only person in the Wen Sect who is giving orders or making decisions or has choices or has two hands??

And I bring this up because I saw an interesting kink meme prompt titled "Time Travel Fix-It : Granny Wen Strikes Back," which sounds pretty good, but then their first suggestion is Granny Wen goes back in time and secretly poisons Wen Ruohan so that all the Wen get to live happily ever after and just, fuck that noise, honestly. One of Wen Ruohan's defining traits is that he protects his people and one of his defining actions is that he elected to not escalate things to end the Sunshot Campaign. While yes he is Sect Leader Wen, he is quite literally not the one causing harm around here. Even the incident with the past Sect Leader Nie was neither started nor finished by Wen Ruohan.

It's just such a bold and baseless move to blame him for everyone's problems when not even the characters in the actual novel are blaming him for their problems.

It's so rare to find content and ideas that feature Granny Wen though...

Because I like to imagine her as a decent person who cares about her family, however, let's say her PTSD is so bad and her delusions so skewed that she thinks killing Wen Ruohan would have helped anything, so she does poison him when she goes back in time.

Instead of killing him, because we already got his death in canon so killing him again is just boring, the poison leaves him sick and bedridden, maybe comatose, but in any case unable to conduct sect business.

It's possible he never formally named an heir since people were still able to hope he might name Wen Qing, factions develop in support of Wen Chao, Wen Xu, and Wen Qing to take over in his stead, at least for the time being. Wen Qing refuses to do harm to her cousins because she is not that kind of person, but Wang Lingjiao, who is still very much alive and her heart just as cruel as always, has no such reservations when she tries to talk Wen Chao into some extremes~

Wen Zhuliu, who has enough sense not to get involved in this madness, has retreated to protect Wen Ruohan at the bedside. Everyone knows Wen Ruohan was poisoned and that it was an inside job, but no one knows by whom--and no one would suspect Granny Wen! Which means Wen Ruohan is just getting worse and worse, and the chance of all this drama getting fixed without bloodshed is becoming less and less.

Thus, the Wen Sect begins to crumble from the inside, because now it's made painfully apparent how all the Wen Clan members, including Wen Qing and Wen Ning, had become so complacent in their privilege that they took Wen Ruohan for granted. He alone maintained the peace in Nightless City through sheer force of will and presence. He alone ensured that they were all kept safe.

Now they all have to protect themselves, just now from each other rather than from the other sects...

While Granny Wen acted soon enough to prevent the destruction of Cloud Recesses for now, as Wen Xu is now in an even better position to do whatever he wants to whomever he wants because nothing about the destruction of Cloud Recesses was ever associated with Wen Ruohan, she acted too soon to give Wei Wuxian a reason to ever help Wen Qing or Wen Ning this time around.

There is also one less person to protect: Wen Yuan has not been born yet and there is a chance he never will be.

But hey, at least the Evil Sect Leader Wen has been defeated, right? And everyone is now safe... But for how long?

[thebiscuiteternal]

What about post canon!WWX or LWJ confronting NHS about his crimes and LXC and having to hear some very unpleasant truths.

This is not the ultra mean idea I posted here, but it's still a pretty mean one I had over on twitter some months ago. Might end up being a multiparter, 'cause I got stuck on where to go after a point.

___________

"-and so you asked for my help."

"That's a funny way of saying you invited yourself into this," Nie Hengbai rumbled, arms folded over his chest and a look of barely concealed disdain on his face.

Lan Xichen wasn't sure if it was actually for Wei Wuxian, or for him. Nie Hengbai had never approved of him pushing so hard for swearing brotherhood so soon after the war ended.

And the ensuing years had only proven him correct it seemed.

"Details!" Wei Wuxian said with a flippant wave of his hand. "Let's see the patient."

Nie Hengbai glanced over to the sect's head healer, Liu Feng, who rubbed his forehead and sighed.

"It's not like anything else we've tried so far has done any good," the old man grudgingly admitted. "And he's already lost the last three years so far."

"...Fine," Nie Hengbai finally muttered. "But you may only conduct a cursory examination for now, and only with Liu Feng present. Approach him without permission at any point, and we will throw you both out on your asses."

"That's fair," Lan Xichen said quickly before Wei Wuxian could open his mouth.

Liu Feng eyed them both, clearly as unhappy about acquiescing to this as his interim sect leader, then curtly motioned for them to follow him.

The family quarters were even more sparse than Lan Xichen remembered, what decoration Nie Huaisang had added after his brother's death having been removed.

Had even that been part of the act?

Nie Huaisang was sitting up in bed when they entered and one of the female disciples, one he didn't recognize, was sitting facing him.

"How much more has he lost?" Liu Feng asked as she switched out the filled piece of paper on the tablet in their sect leader's lap with a fresh sheet.

"It's hard to tell," she said. "The effect has slowed, at least to the point that he only writes in response to questions now instead of just... everything. I think if you tally the answers together... maybe around two months."

"That's an improvement. Perhaps it's a sign that the curse will pass on its own," Liu Feng said, shooting them another glare.

Wei Wuxian smiled, all teeth. "But you don't know if his memories will come back when it does," he said brightly.

Lan Xichen let them argue, turning his attention to Nie Huaisang instead.

He'd heard once, that one of the Emperors outside their territories had a ceramic doll that could write via the moment of a complicated series of mechanics inside.

Pale and unmoving, his expression blank and his eyes even more so, he thought that Nie Huaisang might very much resemble it.

His gaze trailed down to the brush held in the other man's hand, grip stiff and unnatural, and a thought -a very unkind thought, one that he should have been ashamed of himself for having- took root in the back of his mind.

"Did he move?" he asked, the words tumbling from his mouth before he could stop them.

The room went silent, all three gazes turning to him and Nie Huaisang.

"Xichen-ge," Wei Wuxian said, a gentle warning -and wasn't it hilarious that Wei Wuxian was warning him against acting out of turn- in his voice, but it was too late.

Nie Huaisang wrote a single character.

No.

Grief and anger flooded him. He vaguely felt a hand take hold of his arm, but he shook it off. "Why did you say he did?!" he snapped.

There was no response.

"Xichen-ge," Wei Wuxian said again, tone sharper as he pulled him away from the bed.

The disciple had moved between him and Nie Huaisang, saber drawn. Liu Feng had needles in hand and was positively glowering at him.

They thought he was going to harm their sect leader.

They... they might not have been wrong, he realized, anger deflating as quickly as it had risen.

Still... still... "Answer me," he rasped past the knot that had formed in his throat. "Why did you say he moved?"

"He loses the memory after he writes it down, isn't that how you described it?" Wei Wuxian asked Liu Feng, who was still standing with needles at the ready.

"As best as we can tell," Liu Feng replied warily.

"I've been monitoring him since the switch to questions," the disciple said, lowering her saber just enough that it was still visible as a warning. "Each response costs him the day it happened."

Which meant that one word would have erased the entire confrontation at the temple.

And all the answers he was seeking for the things that had happened there.

Lan Xichen suddenly felt sick.

Wei Wuxian glanced in his direction, expression softening in worry, then gently pushed him to sit in a chair. "Well, then. We'll have to be more careful how we word things, won't we?" he asked.

The disciple snorted. "And why would we let you ask anything else after that little stunt? Get out."

Wei Wuxian's eyebrows raised. "Oh? And who are you to give an order like that?"

"Don't," Lan Xichen said quietly. "She's right, I..." He took a deep shaking breath, then bowed as low as the chair would allow. "Taking advantage of his condition to satisfy my curiosity was wrong. I offer my humblest apologies."

He couldn't see what silent conversation might have taken place between Liu Feng and the disciple, but after a long, uncomfortable moment, he heard a soft "Hmph," and the sound of a saber being returned to its sheath.

[chuplayswithfire]

The Wen Remnants and the ethical dilemma, not of what should be done (protecting and saving them is the right thing to do), but WHO has the responsibility to do it, is one of the most fascinating questions in the entirety of MDZS (and I'm not really addressing CQL/The Untamed here, as they changed matters so the situation is similar but also different and because I haven't finished it yet). You have the instigators and aggressors of mass war, tragedy, and loss reduced to the most vulnerable members of their society, and these remnants are thus left to carry the weight of their people's crimes and evils.

Of the Wen Remnants, as far as we know from canon, only Wen Qing and Wen Ning participated in the actual Sunshot Campaign. Wen Qing headed the supervisory office in Yiling and acter as a doctor. Wen Ning was present at the slaughter and destruction of Lotus Pier, presumably as a doctor, and likely also in Yiling with his sister. Everyone else seems to be non-cultivator civilians, rounded up after the final battles were concluded. Wen Qing never killed anyone, we're told, and Wen Ning probably never killed anyone either.

But Wen Qing's position isn't without harm or without choice - as a doctor for the Wen, she was healing and putting back together the people who were killing. As head of the supervisory office in Yiling, she's in a position of relative power and influence. Publically speaking or acting against the Wen Sect would have consequences for her that can't be denied, but the decision to not use that relative power and influence is still a choice. Wen Ning isn't noted as having an official position, but he likely worked as a medical assistant or doctor himself with Wen Qing, so same deal of healing the people killing.

(This isn't to judge or condemn Wen Qing but to say that choosing to be complicit in atrocities to save yourself and your family is still a choice! It is, in fact, the opposite of the choice Wei Wuxian makes at Phoenix Mountain and the same choice that Jiang Cheng makes. I point this out because I often see people point out that Wen Qing was protecting Wen Ning as if that means she wasn't still very making a choice still. Her options were limited, but she still had a choice.)

So the Wen Remnants, aside from the two siblings, have personally done nothing wrong aside from live as probably farmers and probably civilians in Wen territory, on Wen land, as the war goes on. They aren't cultivators in a war of cultivators. They are innocent, but still connected to and at one point provided for by the legacy and recent acts of violence the Wen have committed against every other Sect.

Helping them is the right thing to do, but who are the people left to help them but the survivors and remnants of those who were and are recent victims of the Wen?

The Jiang were apparently slaughtered to three sole survivors: Jiang Cheng, Jiang Yanli, and Wei Wuxian. It's mentioned that even the bodies of the smallest shidi/martial brother were stacked into piles as Lotus Pier was ransacked. Those Jiangs existing now are the ones Jiang Cheng himself was able to recruit during the war. For three months Jiang Cheng had every reason in the world to believe he and Jiang Yanli were the only survivors at all (it's possible there are some Jiang disciples who were away like JYL and thus survived but I can't remember if the novel specifies!)

The Lan weren't slaughtered, but their home was burnt to the ground, their library of traditions and learnings destroyed, their Sect Leader killed, their acting Sect Leader severely wounded. They aren't in as dire straits as the Jiang but they're in terrible shape themselves. It is confirmed by Jin Guangyao that the Lan relied on assistance from the Jin to restore and rebuild Cloud Recesses.

The Nie have apparently been in skirmishes with the Wen for the longest, with their previous Sect Leader killed in gruesome fashion for petty reasons by Wen Ruohan. Nie Mingjue became a Sect Leader likely when he was as young, if not younger, than Jiang Cheng was when he became Sect Leader, and it's implied the Nie were among the heavy lifters of the Campaign, who likely had among the worst casualties.

And then the Jin stayed out of it (mostly, Jin Zixuan led a small contingent) until nearer to the end of the war, and canonically came away with the least losses of funds, people, and damages. They're also the ones now capitalizing on the loss to further demonize the Wen for their own ends.

I just think it's fascinating. Like I said, the right thing to do is help the Wen Remnants - but who is in a position to do that and not risk their people, who have just come out of a war against the Wen, who have lost family, lost homes, lost peace, lost safety, because of them?

I've sometimes seen it said that Jiang Cheng owed it to the Wen siblings to help them, in return for their aid. In the novel, Jiang Cheng neither asks for their help nor really knows about it. Shortly after he wakes up after Wei Wuxian and Wen Ning rescue him from torture he's knocked unconscious by Wen Qing for causing a disturbance, and kept that way until he and Wei Wuxian escape and the decision for the Golden Core surgery is made - a surgery he isn't told about and doesn't consent to, by the way, meaning a surgery he definitely doesn't owe anyone for - the only thing he knows is that Wen Ning helped him escape and provided he and his siblings with something of their parents to bury.

But Wen Ning is in a position to help because he came with the invading force. Wen Qing is in a position to help because her brother forces her hand, as someone in a position of authority within the invading force. Jiang Cheng is in need of assistance because the Wen murdered his people, destroyed his home, and tortured him. His parents bodies need recovering because the Wen killed them in an unjustified invasion to slaughter their people.

If anything, helping Jiang Cheng is what Wen Ning and Wen Qing, as members of the invading and aggressive force, owed him. It's reparations, in a sense, for the acts of their people that they were complicit in.

Even if Jiang Cheng did owe them, is his choice to protect his struggling, fragile Sect, still rebuilding from recent massacre and destruction, any different from Wen Qing's decision to protect her brother and only intervene when the decision is forced on her?

So then there's the Lan - but the Lan are struggling to rebuild themselves after the violence the Wen enacted. They've suffered many losses, culturally in the loss of so much of their history and accumulated knowledge, physically in the sense of their home, and in terms of casualties over the course of the Campaign. Should they then be asked to risk what remains of them to protect the Wen Remnants, whose family and sect is the reason they are in the position they're in?

And then the Nie Sect, who suffered the least in terms of slaughter and destruction but who were nonetheless wounded by the Wen before and during the Campaign, and who are still recovering. They have no positive connection to the Wen Remnants and plenty of trauma associated with them.

Protecting the Wen is the right thing to do. But personally, I think its complicated and not at all a simple thing that no one but Wei Wuxian stepped out to do it. There's a reason its Wei Wuxian, who has no one to rely on him, who does it, and even still he suffers it. Would it be right for Jiang Cheng, Lan Xichen, or Nie Mingjue to prioritize helping the Wen Remnants over protecting and preserving their own people, who are in danger only because of the actions of the Wen Sect?

MDZS has a society where glory, power, privilege, influence, and other benefits are imbued because of family, even without own individual merit. But that means the negatives come to - guilt, blame, recrimination all are incurred because of family. The Wen Remnants didn't do anything wrong, the Wen Siblings didn't kill anyone - but the only people around are those hurt directly by their family and their Sect, and it takes a great deal of will and a minimum of responsibility to risk incurring the wrath of society to protect people like that.