#and respect yanli's choice to save WWX

[dvasva]

I have a lot of complicated emotions about jgy that i wont get into now but i will say. Really i think peoples dislike of him comes down to who he ends up benefitting and why he hurts other people. because while wwx hurts a lot of people, we tend to view this in a more forgiving light because of something I like to call The MXTX Cycle Of Self Sacrifice And Tragedy in which an mxtx character does a big self sacrifice thing for the benefit of another character but it ultimately leads to a worse tragedy. Examples include: WQ and WN giving themselves up to jgs, only for wwx and the wens to still die, jiang yanli dying to protect wwx only for wwx to go crazy cause of her death, wwx giving jc his core only to be forced to use demonic cultivation, jc running out to save wwx fro. wens only for his core to be destroyed etc etc (there are examples in svsss and tgcf too but this is an mdzs post so i will refrain).

Some characters, imo, are kind of excluded from this cycle of Tragedy and self sacrifice, and they usually tend to be either the characters that are meant to escape this cycle of tragedy, like the juniors, OR characters who make decisions that are only meant to benefit themselves. They may make sacrifices but the sacrifices at the end of the day aren't for the benefit of other people. Theyre caught in another cycle, a foil to my MXTX Cycle of Self sacrifice and tragedy, one might say. I havent had a chance to fully define this cycle or name it but maybe i will one day.

In any case, the most moral thing you can do in mdzs, and in a lot of cultivation novels in fact, is to have Unwavering Morals. Lan Wangji is considered a paragon of morality by both the internal characters and us on the outside because he neved falters. He scolded Wwx when others praised him, and stood by his side when the world turned against him, and never compromised his own morals and decisions for any selfish reason. Wwx is the same way, despite all the tragedy, and thats why wwx and lwj respect each other from the start. AND this doesnt necessarily mean that they are making the 100% pure, unproblematic uwu they did nothing wrong decisions, this is entirely that they do not compromise what they feel is right for the sake of public opinion.

Jgy, on the other hand, is immoral because of his lack of Unfaltering Morals. He will cross any boundary he may have, change any opinion, adjust any morality, and compromise his own feelings in order to achieve greateness. To the point where a lot of times it feels like he doesn't have a sense of personal morality, only a sense of desire and ambition where anything is negotiable as long as the outcome is what he wants.

And this isnt to say none of his decisions were GOOD or didn't Benefit the Greater Good, cause its clear he did a lot of positives for cultivation society as a whole. Wwx comments how the guy is likeable and at the end of the novel, wwx doesnt really habe any personal gripe with Jgy. And you could say 'Wait! jgy does a lot of stuff for the sake of his mother, doesnt that count as self sacrifice?' but his mother kind of serves as an extension of his own ego, a dead justification for the things he does rather than a person in the story who contributes. she is the same as the guanyin statue with her likeness, passively watching over the plot, dead and unable to voice any opinion and unable to be someone who things are sacrificed for. Inherently separate from the cycle of self sacrifice.

Jgy and wwx are foils, is what it boils down to. Which doesnt mean theyre the same or make the same decisions, but their actions and decisions contrast with each other to point out and emphasize certain character traits and details. They have similar backgrounds, but make the opposite choices and yet their outcomes end up almost the same. Cycles yada yada yada.

Also, postscript, nobody likes jgs and while jgy doss eventually kill him, i think some people who dont like jgy are still pissed that he ever helped jgs for any reason, which is so valid. i hate jgs too.

MXTX: so the story starts with the main character's death. Then we unravel his story and how he tried his best but had to resort to fucked up methods in order to create real change and save lives, how society supported him while it benefited them and then turned on him when it was convenient, how his complicated social status of being gentry-adjacent was intrinsically tied into every decision he made AND how he was judged before during and after those decisions, how he experienced abuse and abandonment and support and love, saved lives AND killed people. He sacrificed everything but never compromised his ideals once, and it got him killed.

MXTX: and then we close the story on the death of this other guy, who we're also shown having gone through ALL THAT SAME STUFF, except this guy compromises every single time and that ALSO got him killed.

MXTX: neither of them were killed because it was "right" to, or because they were "evil", but because those with power in society were done with them. Their past actions were used to excuse their executions, and it's kinda fucked up actually, wouldn't you say?

MDZS fandom: 1 billion years of meta on why JGY is an irredeemable villain, and WWX is a pure cinnamon roll

[citrusandbergamot]

thinking about Yanli dying when she’s got a 1-month old baby. and, well, it was a choice, wasn’t it?

a choice to go to the nightless city. a choice to enter the melee, a choice to push WWX out of the way.

a choice to leave her month old baby behind

(I mean, she was absolutely beside herself with grief for Mr. Darcy Jin Zixuan, and she loved her brother, and she needed answers, she needed to see him, I get it)

but still. If I was JC, and that was my sister leaving her brand new baby, reaching out a hand despite all evidence stating that WWX was beyond saving, getting in the way of the sword "justly” aimed at WWX, dying, choosing to die for WWX instead of living for JC, for Jin Ling?

I would be. so angry. so incredibly angry with her. a baby, orphaned and needing its mother and crying his eyes out. I would be so so so angry.

some JC-musings under the cut.

But this is JC, and this is JC’s feelings about Yanli and he can’t, he won’t be angry at her, he won’t allow himself to process that feeling. the thought crowding through his brain is a betrayal, its an arrow in the spine, its paralyzing. It passes through his mind like a typhoon and leaves chaos in its wake. It unmoors him, and he is already drifting drifting drifting and he cannot, there is nothing else left to tether him, he will not he will not. WWX will not take this from him too. They JC had always put her on a pedestal, his whole life she was there to fix everything, to understand him, to smooth over his rough edges.... after her death she is practically deified in his mind, her kindness and heart and goodness enshrined in his heart above reproach, he cannot, he WILL NOT sully the only goodness left in his heart by ruining his feelings towards her with his anger.

He has done and will do many things that are ugly and mean and callous. His father hated him for his anger, and anger is almost all that is left of JC now. He won’t...he won’t be so awful as to be angry with his sister, his perfect sister. He hasn’t fallen that far. He won’t ever. 

But it’s there, oh, and there is so much of it. How could she how could he how could either of them? Feelings just don’t go away because we don’t want to feel them. So where does that anger go? It’s not like JC was ever taught anything healthy about his own feelings or about anger anyway. But hooo boy, does he have a lot of feelings and legit no ways of processing them. So where CAN it go? Why, back to where it belongs, back to the source of all the problems, back to WWX. this displaced anger, this rage, his sister could never deserve it. It was WWX who killed her, who twisted her love, who drove her to such absurd lengths. It was his resentful energy infecting JC, making JC turn on the shining memory of his sister, making it poisonous in his mind, ruining everything JC had ever loved.

and the worst thing is that JC knows deep down that that isn’t true. He knows it, just as he knew it was his own choice to save WWX, that Yanli’s loving heart could never have turned on her WWX, that she made the choice to push him out of the way, that she went to the nightless city to save WWX even though everyone else (her own blood brother, her own sect leader) had turned on him. Yanli never could, she was always so strong. She could never stay mad at him, she forgave him everything. (would she have forgiven JC for what he did against WWX? all that he did after WWX died? JC knows he doesn’t want the answer to that question. hadn’t she chosen WWX in the end? Over JC? Over her son?)

(the worst thing is when JC doubts himself for how he’s raised JC -- the boy acts like JC and Jin Ling is suffering because of it -- because hot on the heels of that doubt comes the bitterness and the cruelty -- it was her own fault for leaving Jin Ling behind what did it matter how JC was doing as an uncle, he was still alive that was more than yanli had cared to do -- )

(JC’s sword is named well after all. what is his love if not poison?)

JC’s hands shake when he holds Jin Ling. Jin Ling cries endlessly and the rage in his breast is the river torrent that floods with the rain. It overwhelms him, and sweeps him away. He hates it, and so hates to hold him. Soon, Jin Ling grows past the point where JC has to, then grows older still, and it is too late to get back what JC lost without ever having. oh but he could have, he could have, if he had just tried harder, story of his fucking life

I mean, how could JC ever tell Jin Ling the truth about how his mother died? he couldn’t admit it to himself. But to a child? to tell her that she loved her brother, who left and left and left and lied and killed and got himself killed and destroyed half the cultivation world in his wake without once having to face his consequences, how could JC tell Jin Ling that his mother loved WWX more than her own son? No way, no how, WWX had done enough with his love. JC wouldn’t let him destroy Yanli’s memory too.

(JC can’t really talk about yanli without that anger flooding his senses. He is not angry with her, he will not be angry with her, she did not choose to leave him, she wouldn’t, it was WWX, it was WWX, it was him)

I can’t see him ever processing Yanli’s sacrifice. Like, ever. Not until well after he finds out about the golden core transfer. Not until well after Jin Ling has learned the truth about WWX, about everything. And by then, Jin Ling has learned about yanli from WWX (probably? I bet WWX finds it easier to talk about her because he finds it easier to tALK than JC and he loves Jin Ling and Jin Ling so very very badly wants to know about his mother). How can WWX speak of her so calmly? How dare he say her name, speak anything about her, sully her memory? How dare he be able to share it, like it doesn’t hurt, how can he not need to hoard it, like JC does, jealously guarded in his heart? Ah, but of course, Yanli’s love for WWX was a love overflowing spilling everywhere.

[ephemeralgalaxies]

ayo another meta post for wangxian (but nightless city flavored)

Alright y'all bare with me here since I cannot for the life of me upload screenshots or gifs (I swear I'll figure out my weird computer eventually but today is not that day). Absolutely in love with the gifset @cherryysundae posted, so I'm gonna attach that here for reference to the scene: (XX) (pls work)

TLDR; I have way too many emotions about the cliff scene, but especially the part where WWX realizes that JC is going to send LWJ down with WWX and WWX can't take that so he wrenches away to save LWJ bc he can't lose any more than he already has, even if that means dying alone (but then him realizing 16y later that maybe he still has reasons to live and he'll do whatever he can to keep them this time).

Once again getting emotional about wangxian, specifically the Bloodbath of Nightless City when WWX dies.

Ofc we see that WWX has lost virtually everything at this point, right? Lost his adoptive parents (no matter how cruel they might have been, they still raised him so it's gonna be a shock a person just doesn't recover from in even a year). Lost the respect of the cultivation world because he wasn't willing to fit into their mob mentality and charge the innocent for the crimes of a war. Lost his clan, his home, his family when Jiang Cheng rejected him; people he's known and fought beside his whole life, places he's grown up in, foods he's connected to every little moment. Lost his new family, seeing the Wens dead and disgraced with crowds of people able to witness their bodies and talk shit on them (he doesn't see A-Yuan, ofc, but surely he wouldn't believe a little kid to survive the indiscriminate wrath of the entire cultivation world. He knows what's coming, he knows A-Yuan is done for if not already. He can't protect him anymore). He looses his sister, his tether to the world, the one person (he knew of, at least, as we know that even when he came back via MXY, WWX thought LWJ never actually trusted him) that truly believed there was good in him --- that maybe he was doing a good thing. And she died right in front of him with him believing it was his control of the spirits that caused the chain of events (IT WASN'T EVEN THE SPIRITS THAT SURELY KILLED HER. SHE WOULD HAVE LIVED JUST FROM THAT. It was some other cultivator determined to take down WWX in his moment of vulnerability and family mourning that lead to Jiang Yanli pushing him out of the way so the sword would run her through instead). And then, if there was any hope in rekindling his relationship with Jiang Cheng, that surely suffocated it. He's lost everything.

And the worst part? They can't even see what they've all become. Wei Wuxian just stands there, overlooking the destruction they're all spiraling into, no longer even trying to control the spirits. He breaks the Yin Tiger Seal and scatters it to the animalistic crowd below. Now, he really has nothing. What more to lose? There's no coming back from this, nothing more for him to do, no one else for him to protect.

"Trust me," LWJ told him when they still stood on the rooftop together before it all got so out of control. It's the fact that even before WWX lost control of the spirits (with someone else's flute taking over and causing the destruction), LWJ is there with WWX trying to calm the situation, help him the only way he knows how. "Lan Zhan, do you think I have any other choice now?"

"The situation changed ... You must trust me. It's not that simple."

FIRST OF ALL IM SCREAMING The change this represents for Lan Wangji??? "It's not that simple" --- after years of trying to understand WWX and this growing tension within the cultivation world and their tyrannical systems, consulting Lan Xichen about "black and white, good and bad" and how not simple it all is. "Do you think I have any other choice now?" Because WWX thinks he understands LWJ by now; that the Perfect Golden Child of the Lan Sect would of course cherish and uphold every rule and regulation and surely the Lan Sect wouldn't allow for WWX's reputational actions (he should know, he memorized (almost) all of them, cocky lil shit reciting them to Wen Chao instead of the Wen Clan's). So surely, LWJ would believe there's nothing else for WWX to do --- he's too far gone. Everyone else seems to think so, why not him? If even his own brother could reject him like that, why would some High Moral guy who "hates [his] guts" (thanks, JC, for completely misreading LWJ's gay frustration) think that any of this is still salvageable?

"Situation changed" "trust me" "not that simple" --- bc LWJ understands now, he does. He watched what they did to the Wens, he knows that A-Yuan is still out there somewhere, all alone surrounded by resentful spirits. He hears how the crowd refuses to even try to reason, how they attempt to shoot WWX down, scorn him for defending himself --- others can harm him, but he can't touch them. Most of all, Lan Zhan knows Wei Ying. He just needs WWX to trust him now, and they can figure out a way --- even if it means leaving everything else behind.

In my opinion, I think LWJ was willing to sacrifice everything for WWX in this moment. I think he was ready. Before JYL died, before WWX lost control of the spirits, before the crowd broke out into monsters slicing and smashing each other for a piece of the Yin Tiger Seal. He would have done it. But then... "situation changed" again. Wei Wuxian lost everything (everything except him, but LWJ was never WWX's to begin with, was he? Who was LWJ to think he would be enough to make him stay? to make him "come back"?)

"Wei Ying... come back."

But WWX can't let that happen. He can't trust him, can't get too close. To him, he's hurt everyone he's touched. (ok, now we start the gifset references) So, he goes to the point of no return.

And Lan Wangji catches him. He catches his hand with Lan Wangji's wounded arm, literally pouring blood down as he grips onto him (and as @cherryysundae said, blood is slippery as shit. so that's a strong ass grip right there, fighting against both the pain, the weight, and literal fucking physics against him and he still manages. It's taking all he has just to hold WWX there, but he does. And then JC is there, and maybe he'll help; reach down and pull WWX up from the cliff, save his brother, fix what they have left of their grief-ridden family and sect (would anyone else besides the Jiang sect have noticed the change in spirits? When they refused to brutally harm anyone, but not even daring to touch the sect? because "Wei Wuxian hasn't forgotten us!" and then the utter horror when they think he has?)

But instead, LWJ sees that bloody sword, sees it gripped tight, JC's unmoving stance. "Jiang Wanyin! Stop it." The tears in his eyes here, the unspoken 'please stop falling with them, stop pushing him away, stop ignoring everything you've been raised upon and realize that some things need justice and sometimes those things are the systems you've base your life on. Stop grieving what you've lost to the point of blinding you from what you still have.' And JC pauses another moment, so LWJ turns his attention back to WWX --- make sure he's okay, that he's alive, that he's not planning on going anywhere just quite yet, just a moment more please---

And then Jiang Cheng draws his sword back and plunges it into the cliff side. (and now we get into why I specifically love The Untamed's version of this scene, maybe even more than the novel/manhua/donghua versions). Jiang Cheng doesn't stab Wei Wuxian, he hits the rock. He digs into the cliff, makes it unstable, twists his sword just so in a way that would force the loose stones to crumble beneath not just WWX, but also LWJ. And Wei Wuxian sees this, he knows what will happen if Lan Wangji continues to save him here, hold him there against the cliff without the strength to pull him up alone. He's lost everything... he can't lose Lan Zhan just as he starts to realize that maybe he can have him. And he realizes here that Lan Wangji would die for him. He would give up everything, and Wei Wuxian knows what it feels like to have nothing left.

"Do I have any other choice now?"

So he forces himself out of LWJ's grasp, falls into the pit, away from all the pain and nothingness and from Lan Zhan--- who still, even after JYL died and the spirits created a bloodbath and insanity fell upon the crowd in desperation for power of the amulet, still thought Wei Ying was worth saving. To the point that he'd die with him if that's what it took. Or maybe, LWJ doesn't notice the loose rock, doesn't see exactly what JC does with the sword, too focused on making sure WWX just stays right here, stays as safe as he can be. And maybe WWX knows this, knows LWJ won't be prepared for what's to come, knows he won't have the strength to save them both anyways, let alone himself if it came to it. I mean, you can see the moment WWX realizes what could happen: the way he stares at the sword, eyes wide, then in an instant they widen even more and that quick gasp before he wrenches his arm away from LWJ, pain and tears and guilt and fear on his face.

The pure devastation on Lan Wangji's face as he stands there frozen, arm still outstretched, even after JC walks away. He screams, Lan Wangji, Han Guangjun, Second Jade of the Lan Sect screams. I think this might be the most expressive we ever see of LWJ in the series, though he does let down his walls more after the 16 years (for The Untamed) than during their youth, but nothing ever quite like this. not even when faced with the possibility of losing WWX again via JGY (see: the other half of the referenced gifset). I mean, dude is PISSED, tho, absolutely staring daggers at JGY here, but he's calmer. He's grown. He's gotten stronger. And he knows that if it came to it, he would gladly give his life to save his Wei Ying. He's not letting him go again. He's tired of WWX's savior-complex; he loves him for it, but damn it's starting to get on his nerves when WWX keeps pushing LWJ away to save him. Just the:

WWX: "Lan Zhan, you go first to find reinforcements."

LWJ: bitch, who do you take me for?

WWX: my god we're both doomed

JGY and LXC: you're both hopelessly in love, actually, but yeah also doomed.

I just,,, I love wangxian so much, right, and they have so many beautiful moments, but I will never get over the cliff scene. Everyone always talking about what LWJ would do for WWX, I think we need to focus on this scene more and just what WWX gave for LWJ in that he didn't try to break the hold UNTIL he saw that it was going to put LWJ in danger. He would've stayed. He would have come back. But it couldn't happen, not yet, not with everything still in shambles. No, he needed to go --- let fires settle, let systems overturn and stir into a rolling boil, give Jiang Cheng and Jin Ling time to grow together and grieve what they'll never know, give Lan Wangji time to grow as a leader of his sect, have disciples under his command and care, let A-Yuan become Lan Sizhui (fucking "chasing memories" I'm sobbing, LWJ), let people question whether WWX was ever actually wrong to separate from order and protect the Wens. Let Wei Ying come back sixteen years later to face a Lan Zhan who knows how to protect him now and by god will never let him go again. Let Wei Wuxian grow into a person that no longer wants to die; he doesn't fear death, he knows it well -- but he doesn't want to die anymore. For the first time since probably the Cloud Recesses days, he finally has hope, finally joy and love, he has reasons to stay. He won't fear death, he understands it now. But by god he'll rage against it if he can.

"Come back..."

And so, if just to see the ones he loves finally full of joy and not mourning him for another sixteen years, he'll do it. He'll come back.

[drwcn]

follow up to [post] exploring the crack au if lwj was a girl 

〒▽〒 ps im not trying to erase canon lwj representation, not at all, wangxian is mm in all my other fics, this is just stupid fun

in a ceteris paribus situation aka all other things staying equal: 

1) Lan Wangji 100% still has a resting bitch face, which probably would get her a couple of “Lan-er-guniang 美若天仙 (beautiful as an immortal/goddess) but would benefit from smiling more” comments but nobody is that desperate to die yet so, she’s spared. But damn... imagine the sheer number of thirsty boys who’d try to secure a marriage with LWJ. None of them is good enough for Wangji as far as Lan Xichen is concerned. Okay - maybe in Lan Xichen’s opinion, Nie Mingjue is good enough, but he couldn’t be less interested. I see her as I see Huaisang, Xichen please. 

2) Everything interaction between Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian in Wei Wuxian’s first life is now 500% more scandalous. 

Exhibit A) Their first meeting at the gates; Jiang Cheng immediately felt his spidey senses tingling.  —“You’d sooner have immortals flying out of your ass than get with someone like her. The second jade of Gusu? The pearl in old man Lan’s eyes? C’mon.”  —“Shut up, A-Cheng.” —“Uh-huh.”  —“Also, she’s not that pretty. Her brother Zewu-jun is much better. There’s a reason he’s ranked first.” WWX is still a disaster bi.  — “LMAO, you? Zewu-jun? Please.” 

Exhibit B) Just because LWJ is a girl does not mean WWX grew more brain cells. 

WWX, straight up to Lan Qiren’s face, “Lan-meimei and I - we’re zhiji.” (he means it like we’re kindred spirits, peas of a pod, etc)  LWJ: *does not deny* Lan Xichen: ⚆_⚆ Lan Qiren: ಠ╭╮ಠ

Exhibit C) Lan Wangji getting drunk the first time. Wei Wuxian knew he crossed a line the minute he invited Lan-er-guniang for a drink. Really, WWX, even for you, this is inappropriate. When Lan Wangji fell face first onto the table, Wei Wuxian knew, he fucked up. “Hey....hey...Lan....Lan...-er-guniang,” He poked her. “Don’t...don’t sleep here! You can’t sleep here! If your Uncle finds out or if Jiang-shushu finds out...they’ll skin me alive and then...and then they’ll make me marry you! I don’t want to marry you; you don’t talk and I’m too young!” 

WWX, being a dipshit, “Hey Lan Zhan, call me Wei-gege.”  LWJ, drunk as fuck, “Wei..gege.”  WWX *((( heart )))* ??? 

Exhibit D) The Cold Pond. Okay, so I don’t think Zewu-jun would sabotage his sister’s virtue by sending a stupid teenage boy her way while she’s bathing, but doesn’t mean Su She is above all that. Wei “I didn’t see anything I swear!” Wuxian. Lan “I will gouge out your eyes.” Wangji. Somehow they still end up in the cave. Maybe WWX got in the water after LWJ got out and got sucked into the vortex and LWJ heard the commotion, turned around, saw WWX had disappeared. “Wei Ying?!” A panicked LWJ jumps back into the pond, “Stop fooling around, come out!” 

Jiang Cheng and Wen Qing 👀👀 when LWJ and WWX fall out of the cave together. Also the fact that Lan-er-guniang and Wei-gongzi went missing, together, for two days. Who knows what could’ve happened. I mean anything really. I mean... that’s gotta stir the pot a little were it not for the Yin Iron stealing everyone’s attention away from this bit of juicy scandal. 

Oh the whole story... so much to work with, so little time. 

3) Because Lan Wangji is a girl, now suddenly there’s a high ranking member of the Lan Clan who can host the girls at Cloud Recesses. I mean, Mianmian, Jiang Yanli, Wen Qing, Lan Wangji - SISTERLY FRIENDSHIP. Other than Mianmian, none of the girls are really talkers which suits Lan Wangji perfectly. Even Mianmian’s chatter is endearing.

4) Lan Wangji is absolutely still a powerhouse during the Sunshot Campaign. The inherent aesthetics of fem!lwj telling the Wen goons to “kneel” - no one will deprive me of this.  Also she will still cut off your arm if you cross her - Xue Yang and Jin Guangyao ya better watch out still. 

I am TORN between two options: Lan Wangji tol and kickass or Lan Wangji smol and kickass. On one hand, the aesthetics of willowy elf-like LWJ, on the other hand, 5′2′’ of whoop ass who can and will throw an unconscious wwx over her shoulder firewoman-style and toll him to safety.  

And amongst other things: 

A) Lan Wangji still becomes Chief Cultivator, because excuse me who else is left to clean up this mess? Jiang “Short-fuse” Wanyin? Nie “I won’t do what I’m not intended to do” Huaisang? Jin “13 year-old” Ling? Or Sect Leader Yao?  Technically, being a woman means that she was never Lan Xichen’s heir, but at the end of it, it’s not like Gusu Lan is left with a lot of choices.  Just the poetic justice of Gusu Lan pleading for Lan Wangji to come back when she fully intends to 隐居山野 (retreat into the mountains) with the resurrected WWX.

Lan Wangji being Chief Cultivator would echo Lan Yi’s tenure and rectify the fact that Gusu Lan’s only female head of family “failed”. Lan Yi had to face a mountain of prejudice because she was woman; someone has to say “up yours” to that. A woman as not only the sect master of Gusu Lan but the Chief Cultivator? Love that for Gusu Lans. (⌐■_■) ☞ ☞

B) Because of ~ sexism ~ I wonder if Lan Wangji would get titled “Hanguang” at all even after the Sunshot Campaign. Even Lan Yi, the SL Lan of her time didn’t have a title. Chances are LWJ won’t either. (Note: Violet Spider is not a title, it’s a moniker). So — say after the way Lan Wangji is still just “Lan-er-guniang”, and she does not obtain the title “Han Guang” until after she leaves Cloud Recesses and become rogue. (srsly how did they come up with these titles in canon, did gusu lan just look at 21 year old lwj and be like yah he’s lord light bearer *cue trevor noah stand up joke* why do you call yourself “great” britain? isn’t that a bit presumptuous? shouldn’t you go around doing good things and then let other people come to the conclusion: oh britain look how great you are? same logic with lwj.) 

Lan Wangji, a Jade of Gusu or a nameless rogue, still goes where trouble is, helping those who need it. After laying low for a year or two to heal, Lan Wangji began night hunting. Donned neck to ankle in white silk and tulle, and a weimao (wide brimmed veil hat) obscuring her face, she became known to the people as Hanguang Sanren, the lightbearing wanderer. Gusu’s highest power probably has some idea who she is - or at least they can guess - but the vast majority of people don’t. 

C) Lan Sizhui raised by rogue Lan Wangji as his mum would be different. Still cultured, respectful, but definitely with an air of keeping others at arm’s length. 

For instance, grown-up Sizhui running interference and saving a cohort of gentry disciples on joint hunts.

Jingyi: 这人谁呀？Who is this guy? Zizhen: 多谢兄台搭救之恩，小可看您眼生，敢问兄台尊姓大名，何门何派，改日当登门拜访. Many thanks for saving us. I don’t believe we’ve met, pray tell what is your name and sect, so we may visit at a later time to thank you for tonight. Sizhui: 在下无门无姓 ，单名思追 。举手之劳不足挂齿 ，怎敢劳烦各位名门子弟答谢。My name is Sizhui, belonging to no family and to no sect. As for tonight - I only did what anyone would; it bears no mentioning and requires no thanks. Jin Ling: 你这人，看你工力不凡，想和你交个朋友，可你怎么遮遮掩掩的。Hey you, we see you’re a talented cultivator and want to make your acquaintance. Why are you so dodge-y? Zizhen：金陵 — Jing Ling - Sizhui: 若是有缘，还会相见。告辞。If it’s fated, we will meet again. Farewell.  

Later:  Jingyi: 思。追。 思追谁？Si. Zhui. To recollect and long for whom?  Sizhui: 母亲的一位故人. Someone from Mother’s past.  Jingyi: 你父亲？...Your father?  Sizhui: 我不知。I don’t know. 

I thought about how cute it would be if sizhui and jin ling knew each other but guys...Jiang Cheng literally thinks he killed Sizhui’s biological father. Like he literally thinks he orphaned Sizhui before Sizhui is even born. And Lan Wangji would never accept anything from Jiang Wanyin, not that it would stop Jiang Wanyin from trying. 

A package of books here, a new robe for Sizhui there. Lan Wangji doesn’t know how Jiang Cheng keeps finding her. She and Sizhui are nomadic.  

D) The inevitable conversation after wwx is revived. 

You know what would be funnier than Jiang Cheng thinking Sizhui is a wangxian baby is if Lan Qiren thinks Sizhui is a wangxian baby. 

[ruthlesscalculuss]

THIS IS A LITTLE RANT ABOUT JC’S TRAUMA, not a discussion post. So…Jiang Cheng. He’s a complicated character with a complicated history. Being neglected by his father and being humiliated by his mother, never truly being good enough for the people he craved respect from the most. Always being second best to wwx.

Then of course we have his trauma, the murder of his family, friends and the citizens of lotus pier. We see him sacrifice himself for wwx, his hopes and his dream of rebuilding the Jiang sect being extinguished at the torture by hands of Wen Chao, his core being forcibly destroyed. We see him struggle and then we see him slowly, but surely lose his best friend/brother because of diverging moral views and a lack of power on both sides to get through it together.

Jiang Cheng cannot loose Lotus Pier again at the hands of the Jin’s and wwx knows this, thats the one thing he cannot sacrifice. That’s why they have a staged fight, to publicly announce wwx’s defection. This way the Jiang Sect won’t be harmed by wwx’s actions. Here it breaks jc’s heart, the only one he wanted by his side was wwx and he can’t understand why he would leave the jiangs to protect the wens, all he sees is his brothers arrogance and his betrayal. He does not know the full extent of the wens help, he does not know wwx is without a core.

Jc is a broken man, he has given his best efforts to not be jealous of wwx, to not let it show just how deep his low self esteem runs. He cannot let himself be weak like his mother said he was, like his father thought he was. I think many people, specifically jc antis, ignore this. He is a HUMAN. He is not a character that can be shoved into black and white, either or. We can be like him, he is the example of the scarring, a physical reminder of unhealthy coping mechanisms with trauma. Wwx of course shows his coping methods as well.

Him trying to make light of most things, his lack of cares for rules because “why does it matter if I follow them, I’ll get punished anyway”, we see this even more so after he’s thrown into the mass grave. After Jin Zixuan dies and Yanli dies, Jc is overcome with anger and grief. He blames wwx, “didn’t you say you could control it?!” and to a degree it is part of his fault. Although I don’t think he had a choice-

they needed to win a war with that demonic energy, nobody can deny that. Jc doesn’t know the sinister plans that are making wwx turn into a target for the world. Imagine it was you, could you say you would still be as kind, as forgiving? Sometimes the world can make you or break you, and I believe jc was the latter. He agrees to participate in the siege, he was one of the most important gears in the siege.

Why. Did he hate wwx? Did he want to appease the sect leaders to save the Jiang Clan? Did he feel like he should end his brother on his own terms? I’m honestly not sure. There’s much speculation, It’s my own personal beliefs it’s a combination of politics due to the jins and also an anger that’s been building in jc for a VERY long time. I know in CQL he does force him to let go of lwj, but in the book…I’m curious.

What if Jiang Cheng got to Wei Wuxian first before anyone else. What would he say, what could he say? What would wwx say to him? Sometimes I think it would end as jc stabbing wwx and truly killing him. Sometimes, I wishfully think he couldn’t do it. But that’s very much up to everyone’s interpretation of Jc. At the end of this, I think of jc going back home after the siege carrying chenqing with him until he could finally rest.

I think he would just stare at it, too tired too numb to really do anything else. I think he’d get passed out drunk trying to maybe somehow sleep, and I think he’d have nightmares. God, I don’t write but I’d write a fic for this. Anyways ya sorry guys just some thoughts

[hamliet]

Hey there! I’d like to ask something, if you’re ok with that. In mdzs, a lot of people say that despite JC being so antagonistic towards WWX, he still loves him and misses him. I don’t see how, his actions in any version of the story say the exact opposite to me. Maybe one needs to look between the lines to see it, but I’m horrible at reading others, so if I may bother you and ask what your thoughts are on the subject?

Hey! You are always welcome to ask me questions about MDZS. Especially while we’re all trapped inside.

So I will say I do think Jiang Cheng does indeed love and miss Wei Wuxian. I also think the fandom has a tendency to wipe away Jiang Cheng’s extremely serious flaws (especially in comparison to, say, how they treat Jin Guangyao’s flaws in comparison). Jiang Cheng is very much a foil for Jin Guangyao and for Madame Yu, Wei Wuxian, and Jin Ling (as well as Su She, but that’s perhaps for another meta).

Jiang Cheng’s fundamental defense mechanism is projection. We know already that he is insecure–the way his father treated him is horrible. Madame Yu, in turn, was very clearly projecting her own insecurities onto her son:

Jiang Cheng was stuck between his father and his mother. After a moment of hesitation, he moved to his mother’s side. Holding his shoulders, Madam Yu pushed him forward for Jiang FengMian to see, “Sect Leader Jiang, it seems that some things I have to say. Look carefully—this, is your own son, the future head of Lotus Pier. Even if you frown upon him just because I was the one who bore him, his surname is still Jiang! … I don’t believe for one second that you haven’t heard of how the outside people gossips, that Sect Leader Jiang has still not moved on from a certain Sanren though so many years have passed, regarding the son of his old friend as a son of his own; they’re speculating if Wei Ying is your…”

She’s really asking: I’m here, so why don’t you care about me? Do you really prefer a dead Cangse Sanren to me? But the tragic irony is that the way in which she asks this question only pushes Jiang Fengmian away. And yet, she did love him, which Jiang Fengmian realizes when, in the end, he finds out Madame Yu had taught Zidian to obey his command as well as hers. Zidian is a symbol of her pride and heritage.

Let’s also look at MXTX’s description of Jiang Cheng’s ideal woman. While it’s not in the novel and is extra material, it’s a perfect example of projection:

naturally beautiful, graceful and obedient, hard-working and thrifty, coming from a respected family, cultivation level not too high, personality not too strong, not too talkative, voice not too loud and must treat Jin Ling nicely. 

Is he looking for a wife, or is he looking for Shijie to mother Jin Ling? Because he’s 100% describing Jiang Yanli.

Jiang Cheng does exactly what his mother did to him to Wei Wuxian. He projects his own insecurities, the very ones Madame Yu identified (great job mothering there), onto Wei Wuxian. Why does he hate Wei Wuxian? He hates Wei Wuxian for killing Shijie, when it was Shijie’s own choice to sacrifice herself, and Jiang Cheng then rendered her last sacrifice moot by killing his shixiong. So does Jiang Cheng hate Wei Wuxian, or does he hate himself for killing his sibling in a moment of rage?

It goes deeper, though. Because we see that Jiang Cheng’s fundamental issue is that he hates himself, because he is not as good at cultivation nor as strong as Wei Wuxian, and his father doesn’t love him as much as he loves Wei Wuxian. A child’s mind is going to connect that to “if I’m stronger, Dad will love me.” Jiang Cheng never grew out of this mindset. But what is strength to Jiang Cheng?

It’s protecting the people he loves. So Shijie’s death? He blames himself. One of Jiang Cheng’s most vulnerable moments is when he begs Wei Wuxian to turn away from Yiling and the Wens, because “I can’t protect you.” He wants to protect Wei Wuxian because he couldn’t protect his parents, yet he wants to protect himself more. It’s tragic. What Jin Guangyao said to Jiang Cheng in the temple is true, though of course, it’s not so simple as to be Jiang Cheng’s fault solely. But his insecurities did play a role and were indeed exploited by a cruel, calculating society:

“… Back then, the LanlingJin Sect, the QingheNie Sect, and the GusuLan Sect had already finished fighting over the biggest share. The rest could only get some small shrimps. You, on the other hand, had just rebuilt Lotus Pier and behind you was the YiLing Patriarch, Wei WuXian, the danger of whom was immeasurable. Do you think the other sects would like to see a young sect leader who was so advantaged? Luckily, you didn’t seem to be on good terms with your shixiong, and since everyone thought there was an opportunity, of course they’d add fuels to your fire if they could. No matter what, to weaken the YunmengJiang Sect was to strengthen themselves. Sect Leader Jiang, if only your attitude towards your shixiong was just a bit better, showing everyone that your bond was too strong to be broken for them to have a chance, or if you exhibited just a bit more tolerance after what happened, things wouldn’t have become what they were. Oh, speaking of it, you were also a main force of the siege at Burial Mound…”

Jin Guangyao isn’t wrong here, and unlike Jiang Cheng, he’s aware that society sucks but tries to join it anyways. Jiang Cheng grew up privileged despite his sad home life, and therefore never examined whether society was fair or not (as is reinforced by the early conversation Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian have about Jin Guangyao, in which Wei Wuxian expresses that he likes Jin Guangyao and Jiang Cheng says that, as the son of a whore, Jin Guangyao will only be able to climb so far, yet expresses no deeper concern about this). Jin Guangyao’s tragedy was trying to join society in an effort to prove himself to his father, and Jiang Cheng’s tragedy was not examining himself and his role in society in an effort to prove himself to his father as well, both fathers of whom would be better off ignored. Jiang Cheng did rebuild Lotus Pier, but Wei Wuxian learns that the local people are terrified of Jiang Cheng and hate him, while Jin Guangyao actually did protect the common people, yet Jiang Cheng still has a chance to redeem himself in the end and Jin Guangyao does not, which can be chalked up in great part due to privilege.

This isn’t to argue Jiang Cheng is worse than Jin Guangyao, because better/worse is moot in the world of MDZS. The point is that both Jiang Cheng and Jin Guangyao bring about the death of a brother by prioritizing their own wellbeing and proving themselves to the fathers whose approval it is impossible to win (because the problem is with them rather than with Jiang Cheng or Jin Guangyao themselves), would have/did kill a child on the basis of their parentage (Wen Yuan was rescued by Lan Wangji or he would absolutely have been killed, Jin Guangyao does kill A-Song–it doesn’t matter whether or not either of them did/would have done it personally; at the very least they set in motion events they knew would result in a child’s death), and yet both raised and genuinely loved Jin Ling (as Jin Ling himself concludes in the end).

But in regards to Jin Ling, Jiang Cheng’s insecurities make it impossible for him to communicate well with the people he loves. He warns Jin Ling not to come back unless he accomplishes something on Dafan Mountain, which almost gets Jin Ling killed trying to prove himself. (I wrote more about that in this meta here.)

After Wei Wuxian’s resurrection, Jiang Cheng proves that he doesn’t hate Wei Wuxian several times despite claiming he does. Firstly? When Jin Guangyao accuses Mo Xuanyu of being Wei Wuxian in the middle of a crowd, Jiang Cheng could easily turn him in  and be rid of him since Jiang Cheng already knows it. And yet, Jiang Cheng does not do so, even when called upon; instead, his indecision is noted. Secondly, he kept Chenqing with him all these years, when he very easily could have destroyed it (which is another parallel to Jin Guangyao, who kept Suibian, an ultimately useless sword); the flute, on the other hand, is a symbol of demonic cultivation and yet Jiang Cheng does not get rid of it. He went so far as to torture other demonic cultivators to death, many of whom are noted to have been innocent, and yet he kept demonic cultivational tools with him, because it was his brother’s–which also, yes, shows how he hates himself and kind of wants to punish himself, too.

And, of course, there’s the sacrifice that Jiang Cheng never reveals (at least not by the novel’s end). He sacrificed his own life to save Wei Wuxian from the Wens, was willing to give up what he always wanted–to lead Lotus Pier and thereby earn his father’s respect–to save Wei Wuxian’s life. Yet, in the end that led to Wei Wuxian sacrificing his golden core for Jiang Cheng, and in the end, Jiang Cheng can’t tell Wei Wuxian for the same reason Wei Wuxian couldn’t tell Jiang Cheng in his first life: it would sound like an excuse. So, again, Jiang Cheng’s pride is getting in the way–yet, at least this time, he is willing to sacrifice looking good and look worse for the sake of letting Wei Wuxian go.

However, I think there’s reason to hope, as I’ve said before. I did not interpret that ending to mean their relationship was over or could never be significantly close again. Wei Wuxian has let go of a lot of his pride and learned some hard lessons about self-sacrifice and protecting people, and the younger generation is making so much room for nuance and kindness and thereby challenging society. I personally assumed they’d have that conversation eventually, but we didn’t need to see it to assume it would happen.

[imaginaryelle]

Hi....if you don't mind me asking, who are your top 5 favorite characters from MDZS? And why? Sorry if you've answered this question before.....

Hi again!

I had to think about this one too, MDZS has so many excellent characters... so I made up some categories.

1. Most relatable: Lan Wangji I've talked about this a little bit before, but the whole "raised in a very sheltered environment and learning to excel at it and making it a pillar of my identity" thing is highly relatable to me, as is the struggle to reconcile that foundation with new, mind-opening experiences (like highly energetic, irreverent, charismatic new people barging into your life and demonstrating that there are other ways to live and still be successful). I really enjoy writing about how he reacts and changes to all his sometimes-conflicting responsibilities and commitments too, especial in cql, since in mdzs he's more like "ah yes, responsibilities" *bodily throws everything except night hunting aside because Wei Ying exists* (which is also fun, just in a different way)

2. Favorite Villain: Jin Guangyao I actually haven't talked about this much before, but I do really love Jin Guangyao. I love his complexity and his drive, and how that leads him to make really questionable decisions and form extremely intricate and contradictory relationships with practically everyone he meets. He's a really great character! The story from his pov would be a super interesting read, I think, because he is so good at justifying his actions to himself, and it would be a pretty heroic and triumphant story right up until WWX's death. He's on the top of the mountain at that point, and then everything twists sideways, little by little, and suddenly he's not secure like he thought he'd be, he needs more control, and more, and more, and his story becomes one of how far people can fall, instead of how high they can rise. Very fun.

3. Favorite Female Character: Wen Qing There is an unfortunate limited selection of options here but Wen Qing is so great! Protective older sister! Highly skilled doctor! Doing her best to save who she can, however she can! I love Mianmian and Jiang Yanli too, but Wen Qing deserved so many more scenes. It's not the story MXTX wanted to focus on, but the tale of a young woman who loved her brother so much that she would risk both of their lives to help his friend in the middle of a war just because he asked ... that's a good story.

4. Favorite Brother: Jiang Cheng Look there are many, many brothers to choose from in mdzs and I love them all in their own way, but there's just something about Jiang Cheng. The way he's raised as both the baby of the family and the future sect leader. The way his story combines all the tragic life event elements of 3zun into one single terrible life (lost his parents to the Wen like NMJ, check, driven out of his home by the Wen and having to take over the entire future of his sect's existence at a young age like LXC, check. Never being good enough for his father and having to watch every chance at happiness be snatched from his hands like JGY, check) -- it's very compelling! And I love Yunmeng-sibling reconciliation fics. They deserve to have that chance, even if both JC and WWX are dicks about it.

5. Favorite Junior: Lan Sizhui This is probably the most difficult choice for me, because the juniors are all excellent, but Sizhui's story makes me want to explore the future of the mdzs setting more than anyone else's, so I'm going with him. Like, how do you reconcile your loyalty to the people who raised you with the idea that some of them are, in fact, partially responsible for why you have no living blood relatives? How do you deal with the fact that your own remaining relative is a zombie, (and one who probably can't move on to the reincarnation cycle) when you've been taught your whole life to destroy that kind of zombie? How do you go on in the world, trying to make it better, while knowing that there are people who would kill you if they knew your true origins, just because they're still angry about a war that happened when you were a toddler? These are all fun questions to explore, but also, Lan Sizhui has the most potential out of all the juniors to be an actual agent of change in the world. Not because of his birth (like the rest of them), but because he's kind. And he listens. And the rest of his generation loves him for it. If Lan Sizhui wants to shift the way the world works, he's loved and respected by 2 sect heirs and has the full support of the Lan clan behind him. Most of the other characters only have such strong connections to 1 or 2 sects. If any member of WWX's generation had the backing of three sects together (really and truly, not in the 3zun self-destruction way), maybe the story would have turned out differently.

[vespertineflora]

How do you think things would have changed if JGY had stayed with the Nie?

oh anon that IS the question, isn’t it? :)

are we assuming novel!jgy? i’m going novel!jgy route, because cql needed to turn Jgy’s grey morality into something a bit darker (in order to lighten wwx’s grey morality), therefore making him seem more more keen on murder and ambition than his novel self is

so i see a couple possibilities! there’s a chance that jgy just continued working in the Nie Sect, helping plan battles, organize troops, run things in the UR, etc, whatever his other duties as deputy happened to be. the course of the war would certainly change! it might take years longer, there might be more casualties, and if the fight dragged on long enough, there’s even a chance that resources could have run low and really endangered the chance of winning against the Wens. or maybe, with jgy’s help as a strategist, they would win more battles than they lost, and eventually win! i do imagine the war taking much longer in that scenario though.

in this case, once the war is finally over, jgy has earned respect as a strategist or even a general, and at the next banquet, jgy accompanies nmj, his father is forced to confront him... but maybe that’s it. jgy was important to the war efforts, but he didn’t earn himself a war hero title, so jgs isn’t forced to recognize him as his son. maybe jgy meets jzx and they get along! maybe they stay in written communication, because jzx will be the next sect leader and it might be politically advantageous to strike up a bit of a relationship with the person who’s second in commend in the nie sect! jgy returns to nie sect and continues his work as nmj’s deputy, feeling secure in his position after earning the respect of disciples who have slowly accepted him as a member of the sect. he learns song of clarity, plays is for nmj daily to keep him calm, nmj lives for a few years longer than he otherwise would have... and when nhs is forced into his role as sect leader, he has his very helpful gege at his side to keep everything running as efficiently and smoothly as before.

i have and will CONTINUE to maintain that jgy wasn’t greedy for power! he just wanted stability! he wanted respect, and he wanted to feel secure in his position! i think nie sect, especially once they moved past the sensationalist gossip and started respecting jgy as nmj’s capable right hand man, was a good environment for jgy to find this.

the other possibility is that jgy sees how the tide of the war is changing gradually in the wens’ favor, and he approaches nmj with a plan: stage a fall out between them, allowing jgy to defect and join the wens undercover and act as a spy. nmj is resistant, maybe needs some convincing, but eventually, is talked into it. they stage a vicious fight of some sort, and jgy leaves.

a few years later, when nmj winds up captured in nightless city, he knows the jgy has been feeding them information from the wens, and he knows how much he’s been risking the past few years to do it. he and jgy catch eyes, if only briefly, a knowing look exchanged between them. do the disciples with nmj know? do they keep their mouths shut, saving them from being killed instantly? or maybe they don’t know (secrets needed to be kept) and speak up and jgy has no choice but to kill them, making sure it’s a quick death, a mercy, to keep wrh from devising a far more extravagant death for them. in the end, wrh and nmj exchange blows, and in the last moment, jgy kills wrh and drags nmj to safety, and when nmj recovers, he’s still furious and upset, but at least this time, he understands. he knew what jgy had sacrificed and what would be lost in everything had fallen apart in those final moments.

nmj takes jgy back to nie sect, because he is still his deputy. even if jgs is suddenly more motivated to claim jgy as his son, to claim some glory of the war for his own sect.... qinghe is jgy’s home. it’s the only home he’s ever known outside of the brothel, and nmj wants him there. things are tense for a while, as nmj copes with jgy killing those disciples, and as jgy copes with his massive ptsd from being one misstep from a painful death within the wen sect, but they do cope. they work together, and working together reminds them how well they do it, how smoothly everything runs, how well they know each other, and eventually things settle (cue the above ending, playing clarity until eventually nmj passes)

the jins don’t have as much room to be evil and nefarious, jgy isn’t there to tell jzxuan about his cousin’s plan, so maybe jxzun is killed, but jzxuan and yanli live. what happens to wwx in this au? well, killing an asshole cousin isn’t nearly so bad as killing a sect heir, so maybe the siege happens or maybe it doesn’t. is xue yang even recruited by the jins in this au? he wouldn’t have jgy’s help controlling him in this, so it seems like xue yang would be more of a liability than anything.

(and this last bit is going to be me pushing a nieyao agenda :) after the high emotions of what happened after nightless city, after slowly learning their way around each other again, their feelings for each other are at the forefront of their thoughts, they manage to have a tense conversation and air out their concerns and afterwards feel... more settled. they understand each other more fully... maybe some time later, jgy falls asleep at his desk, wakes up from a nightmare in a panic and nmj comes across him, calms him down.... maybe............... they kiss :)))))) and maybe that kissing leads to more and MAYBE someone suggests that......... what could really help nmj manage his qi.............. is some good old fashioned dual cultivation :))))))))))))) jgy’s golden core gets stronger, nmj’s qi becomes more balanced and between that and song of clarity, nmj manages to live another two decades in relative peace with his nie-furen!!!!)

[radishtears]

gently, we fall

to ashes, p2

(aftermath continued, in which jin zixun gets a thrashing because that’s all i want)

… … …

Jiang Cheng stares at Wei Wuxian’s still figure clutched tightly in Lan Wangji’s arms and doesn’t understand what he’s seeing. After Lotus Pier fell, his family was suddenly reduced to three. Yet Wei Wuxian is…gone? He cannot find the right words to ask why.

It is in this moment of silence that Jin Guangshan speaks up.

“Everyone, please settle down.” He stands up from his seat, centred among the sect leaders on the raised dais. “I must apologize for this commotion in front of our honoured guests. Zixuan! What has happened?”

Everyone’s attention turns to the still ashen-faced Jin Zixuan. With a mother’s sharp eyes, Madam Jin is the first to spot the splash of red on his pale gold robes. She rushes down to him.

“Zixuan, my son, you’re hurt! Someone summon a doctor!”

“Mother, there’s no need. It’s already healed.” Jin Zixuan gently pushes down her worried hands and turns.

“However, to answer your question, father…Zixun should do it himself.”

Jin Guangshan’s eyes narrow in a cautioning stare but Jin Zixun barrels forward and opens his mouth before his sect leader can give permission. He stumbles to his feet and gestures wildly to the crowd like drunkard entertaining an audience.

“What happened?! I’ll tell you what happened! That bastard Wei Ying put a damned curse on me! Thousand Boils, Hundred Pits! All I did was take my revenge! He got what he fucking deserved!”

His laughter is buried among the cries of indignation that rise from the crowd.

“That Wei Wuxian! Such cruel methods!”

“We all knew of his dirty character so it’s no surprise.”

“To do such a thing just because he didn’t get along with Young Master Zixun…”

“Good riddance!”

“Quiet.”

Jiang Cheng’s voice is barely raised but it cuts through the din, sharp as Sandu at his hip.

Jin Zixun takes a shuffling step in his direction and sneers, “What, Sect Leader Jiang disagrees?”

“Is your curse lifted?”

Unexpectedly, it is Lan Wangji who spoke. Until now, he had not uttered a sound nor moved a muscle during this entire exchange.

“What?”

“I asked…is your curse lifted, Young Master Zixun?”

The shouts and clamours die down a little. Bichen flashes and Jin Zixun goes flying. He lands on his back in the middle of the hall, shrill screeches falling from his mouth. His robes fall open at the chest.

Ugly puss-filled pustules and angry red pockmarks are vivid on his chest, revealed before all to see. The crowd recoils from the ghastly image, finally quiet even as Jiang Cheng throws his head back and laughs.

Zidian whips through the air and brings Jin Zixun before him, perfectly positioned for Jiang Cheng to bring his foot down on his face.

“Is this how the Jin Sect has taught their children to seek justice? Without evidence, without logic…only personal vendettas!? Wei Wuxian was right. The Jin Sect is reminding me more and more of the Wens of days past.”

“Sect Leader Jiang! You must watch your words!” A scandalized voice calls from below.

“He has not spoken incorrectly,” Lan Wangji’s cold voice rings across the hall and any new cries of agreement fall into stunned silence.

Jin Guangshan watches this unfold with a sour expression. Next to him, Jin Guangyao hurries to ease the tension. Rather, he tries.

“Everyone, please. We can settle this calmly, no need to raise tempers…”

“With all due respect, Young Master Jin, someone of my Jiang Sect has been wrongly murdered and you say I should not be upset? I am demanding penance from the Jin Sect!”

Jiang Cheng’s words come as a surprise. In everyone’s impression, this young sect leader knew very well that his newly rebuilt sect’s status was precarious. Indeed, his actions and words have all been careful and restrained…up till now.

“…Please correct me if I am mistaken, young Sect Leader Jiang.” Jin Guangshan breaks the pause. “Wei Wuxian is no longer part of the Jiang Sect, no?”

A muscle on Jiang Cheng’s neck twitches. He moves to stride forward but a gentle hand rises to hold him back.

Jiang Yanli’s eyes are red from crying but in this moment her face is stone cold.

“Sect Leader Jin. Wei Wuxian is my younger brother. Even if he has left the sect, that fact will never change. Now, he has been wrongfully killed. I will not stand here while the murderer walks freely.”

As a woman married in to the Jin Sect, she did not address Jin Guangshan as “father” — her intentions cannot be clearer. Jin Zixuan pales but does not stop her.

Jiang Cheng takes a step forward to stand at her side and raises his head.

“That’s right. My mistake. It is not Jiang Sect’s head disciple but our brother who has been killed. It is I, Jiang Wanyin, who is asking Sect Leader Jin to give me a satisfactory outcome.”

The argument is not waterproof by any means. Indeed, it is a stretch to say it is any different. But the request is made, plain for all to hear, and if there’s even one person left who had any sense…

Lan Xichen speaks up.

“Indeed, by our honour and principles as cultivators, this matter should be settled justly. Sect Leader Jin, isn’t that within reason?”

Jin Guangshan’s face is growing uglier by the second. Grasping at straws, he struggles to keep his voice even.

“In fairness, I cannot help but ask…how can we be sure that Wei Wuxian did not set the curse?”

Voice flat, Jin Zixuan interrupts. “I have checked for myself. There are no pockmarks on Wei Wuxian’s body.”

Of course, Jin Zixuan did not check with his own eyes, as if he had any chance to. He had hesitantly asked an empty-eyed Lan Wangji on the way back. But it was the truth either way and coming from Jin Zixuan…no one had reason to doubt it.

Jin Guangshan’s expression is thunderous and yet Jin Zixuan is not finished.

“Father, the truth is evident. Zixun was blinded by his anger and, without thinking, went to Qiongqi Path with the intention of killing Wei Wuxian. Even when I arrived, he didn’t care for others’ safety at all. His archers fired indiscriminately and even I did not escape unscathed. And in the end it was Wei Wuxian who saved my life at the cost of his own.”

Disbelief and shock hangs heavy in the air.

Nie Mingjue’s voice is the final nail in Jin Zixun’s coffin.

“I have no love for a demonic cultivator such as Wei Ying. And yet by Young Master Jin Zixuan’s account, his last actions were honourable and are redeeming in their own right. Meanwhile, I cannot call Jin Zixun’s actions anything but despicable. Sect Leader Jin, what is your answer to this?”

…

In the end, Jin Guangshan has no choice but to make a show of sentencing Jin Zixun to ten years of confinement. At the Jiang Sect’s insistence, fifty lashes were added. Of course, these were lashes from the Jin Sect’s spiritual punitive whip, just as each sect had their own. Ten would be enough to take a lower ranked cultivator’s life.

For Jin Zixun, his fifty are to be spread over the ten years. After all, it was hard to say if the curse or the lashes would take his life first.

… … …

Of course, there are some people who will doubt the truth, saying “oh, WWX could have set the curse in other ways, through other people” etc. but no one would’ve dared bring it up when the “big” sect leaders were talking.

And poor Jin Zixuan…he got dragged into this mess by his trash father. But I believe he has a strong sense of justice and his mother never hid her disdain for JGS’s habits so that’s why he stood up to his father.

… … …

As always, check the #mdzs gwf tag for more.

Buy me a gingerbread latte :)

[inessencedevided]

The Untamed, episode 24 - watching notes

Happy Wangxian-bunny-fest everyone! 🐇💐🐇 Because that's what I have to think about every time I see an Easter bunny these days. :D

We're picking up where we left off, with Shijie's and Jin Zixuan's future being decided for them

And everyone looking distinctly uncomfortable

WWX said fork the patriarchy and I respect that!

He also probably just violated about a hundred rules of conduct 😂😂😂

God, I adore him just not giving a flying fork anymore

(Yes I'm cursing good place style now, because tumblr 🙄)

Ooooh, I hadn't realised that lwj had stood up for this whole exchange for no reason whatsoever. Now that's telling :D

I love the fact that Jiang Yanli is good and modest and dutiful, but she has her own opinion and here, she acts on it, even though it's in defiance of what most of the cultivation world wants.

I love how the short haired minor clan leader whose name I have forgotten just acts as a commentator the whole time :D

What is a "Baifeng Mountain crowd hunt"?

Okay, the background "whisper" explained it to me. Thanks random cultivator extra #34

Whaaaat is JGY planning? 🧐

Honest question: can someone explain the hat to me? Is it a Jin tradition? Or is it somehow indicative of jgy's new status?

I just had a though about jgy and wwx that I'm not quite sure is entirely formed yet, but I have to share anyway. I feel like their journeys might be a parallel of each other, but in opposite directions ... if that makes sense? Like both were born outside of the clan world. Wwx got accepted into it through the kindness of someone who loved his mother. Jgy got rejected through the cruelty of his own father who very much did not love his mother. Wwx grew up a respected cultivator, jgy was an outsider and always looked down upon as the sun of a prostitute. Then they witness the war against the Wen clan. Wwx sacrifices everything to save the ones who took him in. Jgy betrays and almost kills the ones who took him in. Wwx comes back more bitter about the cultivation world than he has ever been and seems to only care about his own moral judgement and the wellbeing if those closes lt to him anymore. The last thing he seems concerned about his status. Then there is jgy, who at this point has murdered, lied.and killed innocent civilians,but also aided those who were kind to him (i.e. lan Xichen), and st least partially this is how he climbed the socisl ladder on the cultivation world. In other words, these two are both outcasts at some points in their lives, but their reaction seems to be almost opposite each other. For wwx it seems to be to fight the system, for jgy to adapt and survive and use the corrupt system to his advantage.

Moving on ...

Oh no ...

I feel like jgy actively acting again wwx kind of fits my rant about them from earlier

Oh he is good! He just planted the idea that wwx has the last shard of the Yin iron in Jin guangshao's head and then acted as if he was speaking reason. And the idiot completely fell for it because it flatters his ego.

Who is that spy going to be I wonder?

Oh no, lotus pier looks different 😥

Cloud Recess!!!!! I've missed you :')

Lan Xichen's long suffering sighs are a mood :D

Oh I see where this is going. First Jin Guangshan now Lan Quiren. The old guard seems to be extremely displeased with what wwx is doing.

Also, it must be very strange to all involved that suddenly, lwj is the one having yo be reminded of the rules

Character development, man!

"Do you know why I wouldn't let you leave with Xichen?" *dramatic zoom from the side* dramatic zoom from the front* ... *drumroll* ... "Leave now" 😑

IT'S BECAUSE HE DISAPPROVES OF YOUR BOYFRIEND! THAT'S WHY!

I feel so proud of Jiang Cheng right now :')

I'm so here for Lan Wangji's crisis of faith right now! Character development!!!

Jiang "tough love" Cheng

I kind of understand his frustration. From his perspective, it seems as if wwx is abandoning them

Lan Xichen's fond amusement with wwx will never not be endearing

Also, wwx is caring for the Jiang guests after all :D

Um ... does wwx have an alcohol problem at this point? 😕

That can't be healthy

I love the moral argument Lan Xichen makes here and it shows how one set of moral beliefs can come from entirely different places. His uncle seems to believe in rules for the rules sake, whereas lan Xichen cites a more humanistic argument: rules exist because we exist in a society and for society to function for all, especially the weakest, there most be rules to reign in behaviour that would be harmful to others. That's why breaking those rules harms not only one person, but society as a whole. My question for him then would be: But what of those rules themselves are harmful?

I stopped the stream to type this. Let's see what wwx has to say :D

Okay, lan Xichen isn't finished yet

Honestly, I think in terms of his combination of character traits, lan Xichen is the most genuinely good person among our characters. He is both well-meaning in his goals and measured in his means. He treats everyone fairly and although he loves his live by the Lan sect rules, he is not unkind in applying them to others. The fact that he can see wwx's good heart, even though they are such fundamentally different people, speaks volumes.

I'm genuinely wondering why wwx doesn't tell anyone why he can't do traditional cultivation anymore. (I'm still pretty convinced he gave Jiang cheng his golden core. I even went back to the scene where he showed Wen Qing the diagram and that was as good as a confirmation.) I get that he wouldn't tell Jiang Cheng and wouldn't want it to be known by most, for Jiang Cheng's sake alone, but why doesn't he at least tell one person who could vouch for him. I guess wen Qing knows by default, but she is part of the Wen clan and thus pretty low on the social ladder right now. He doesn't want Lan Wangji to know because he doesn't want to drag him down with him. I get that, too, even though it's bullshit. But Lan Xichen would be a good choice. A) because he is even-tempered and wouldn't act rashly and b) because I'm pretty sure that he would even aid wei Wuxian in shielding lan Wangji.

At the end of this rant, I kind of realised why Wei Wuxian doesn't tell anyone. It makes perfect sense, character-wise. He absolutely strikes me as someone who thinks he has to bear all his burdens alone. And now that he probably thinks of himself as doomed anyway, he might as well run with it. :/

Again, all the awards to his actor. He does an amazing job at giving wwx an aloof and cocky air that crumbles the moment nobody is looking. Way to breakmy heart ... 😔

I honestly believe Jiang Cheng is also worried about Wei Wuxian. He's just never learnt to separate worry from anger

Wei Wuxian is so far from okay :/

Btw, are the light colours that Jiang Cheng and especially Jiang Yanli sre wearing indicative of the fact that they are still in mourning?

I know I've said so before but the only one he is even remotely himself around is Shijie. Even as he tries to put on a good face, at least he lets himself cry, too. He acts almost childlike around her. She's more mother to him than sister, I think

Oh God, little Wei Ying on the streets 🥺🥺🥺

"You were born with a smiling face. Always smiling. You never mind too much about any sorrowful things. No matter how bad your situation is, you can always be happy." But he can't anymore, can he? He's just playing the part at this point, to varying degrees of success.

"Why do you still act like a kid?" See, Shijie thinks so, too

Oh god, the question why one would like someone so much! I'm so anxious to find out, when wwx has any inkling of his own feelings, because at least in the show, this seems to be a very good moment, tragically. Because the way he tries to shield lwj from harm? That's not the way you treat an old school acquaintance.

Very random observation, but wwx's sleeves are mismatched. One is studded in silver, the other one has a simple leathery pattern :D

Aww, the banter between wwx and jc makes me almost tear up at this point, even though they're acting like 6 year olds and I wonder how Shijie kept her sanity for all these years 😅

At the library pavilion at Gusu: "Please don't report this to Hanguang Jun." Lol :D

Is he purposefully going behind his uncle's back right now? 😱

"It seemed not so hard to go back to the old days." That is a very ominous sentence to end an episode on 😬

@sweetlittlevampire @fandom-glazed @elenirlachlagos @allhailthedramallama @luckymoony

[lan-trans-ji]

Characters 5 & Story 3 for the ask game!

Story 3: Favorite character of the juniors? [don’t forget OYZZ]

Oh man this is a tough choice. Like really tough. I love the junior quartet so much I might have to be lame and say I love all of them equally. Like how can I choose between Lan Sizhui aka Best Boi Turnip, Lan Jingyi aka Lan Qiren’s anger translator, Ouyang Zizhen aka King of Romance and wwx #1 fanboy, and Jin Ling aka Golden Raisin Nephew? Answer: I can’t.

Character 5: You can bring one character back to life, but you must pick someone else to die in their place. Would you do it? How would this affect the story?

Slightly easier question. Kill Jin Guangshan (very easy choice), bring back Wen Qing(slightly more difficult choice). Wen Qing is just such a good character and she (well all the female characters) deserves so much more. There’s some quote from TAZ from Justin McElroy that pretty much sums up my thought process. “There has to be a competent woman somewhere! That’s what we always lean on! We’re in dire straits, is there a competent woman?”

Now for how this effects the story depends entirely at which point Jin Guangshan is killed. For The Dramatics™️ lets say he kicks the bucket around the same time Jin Ling is born. This puts Jin Zixuan as head of the Jin sect and Wei Wuxian and Wen Qing living with the Wens at the Burial Grounds. But it also means that Jin Guangyao no longer has a shitty father figure he is trying to please and instead is alongside his brother. There is a small moment in the show which I think gets glossed over a lot where Jin Zixuan does try to come to his half-brother’s defense when speaking to his father and says the Jin Guangyao should be trusted more and get more responsibility. So I really do think as sect leader Jin Zixuan would treat Jin Guangyao with much more respect than his father did and maybe enough so that he chills at least a little bit with the whole murder thing. Which then means that Jin Guangyao doesn’t set up Jin Zixun’s murder via Wei Wuxian which means Wei Wuxian can peacefully come see his nephew and talk with the new clan leader and have a kind of peace treaty set up so that him and the Wens are protected. (I may be going 2 for one here and saving Jiang Yanli too technically but tbh killing Jin Guangshan just....solves a lot of problems) (also Mianmian is set up as the ambassador to the Wens and meets Wen Qing and they get along Very Well) Which means we get Wen Qing getting to live her life and be with her brother and being able to practice medicine again and maybe in this word a-yuan grows up with Wei Wuxian and Lan Wangji and also Wen Qing who teaches him medicine. Maybe she sets up her own little medical school teaching the ways of the Dafan Wen sect so that even if the bloodline isn’t necessarily there (found family trumps blood anyways) she’s able to pass on the legacy of her family and she’s able to honor her own ideals and help others. (We do see her teaching Wen Ning how to practice medicine as well so it is something she does and seems to be good at.) Wen Qing ends up being the go-to doctor for whenever baby Jin Ling gets sick because she’s the best and most trusted doctor they could have. Jiang Cheng gets over his crush on her and one day when Wen Qing is nagging him about something stupid he did he accidentally calls her his older sister and she never lets him live it down and uses it for leverage at every available opportunity. Basically Wen Qing lives happily every after with a bunch of medical students, her new adopted and very annoying brothers, her actual brother, a-yuan, and her gf.

[butterflydm]

The Untamed Rewatch (ep 3)

Previous Episode | Index | Next Episode

aka they are all babies and I can't protect them

What stood out on rewatch (contains spoilers for entire drama);

We get several introductions in this episode. The first is to Mian Mian. I love Mian Mian both for herself and as a parallel for Lan Wangji. For now, I will talk about how their introductory scenes parallel but it happens with them a lot, so this will not be the last time.

Both Mian Mian and Lan Wangji are trying to abide by the rules of their sect and do what their sect would want them to do. Wei Wuxian would like to talk them into making an exception, please. In both cases, Mian Mian and Lan Wangji do consider his arguments and accept his case (Mian Mian in the same conversation and Lan Wangji going up to talk to his brother after the path introduction). Mian Mian and Lan Zhan are both generally rule-abiding but also reasonable. 

Jin Zixuan doesn't actually speak much in his scenes. On the heels of the Mian Mian scene, he is coming across as a second parallel for LWJ but a different side of LWJ. He does still come across as arrogant but in my rewatch, I'm wondering how much of that is genuine vs him just not speaking up when other people assert how they believe he's feeling. Which is something LWJ certainly also does.

Also, WWX's blatant disrespect of Jin Zixuan both as a person and for his position really stood out to me in rewatch. He's very deliberate about it, both in words and actions.

I also wonder if JZX might have been deliberately wanting to talk to Jiang Yanli before she left, but he wasn't able to come up with words before his attendant 'helpfully' arrived to tell him he went to the wrong room. Same attendant does a lot of talking for JZX in the earlier confrontation too.

Then WWX arrives and takes over the situation again. 

Much like LWJ, JZX seems to have a difficult time expressing himself in words, and he has no idea how to handle WWX's entire personality. 

Also: is it possible that, like his mother does later, JZX wonders here if there's potential romance vibes between WWX and JYL, since WWX kind of dominates the conversation? I'm going to keep an eye on JZX's future reactions to WWX and see what I see.

Okay, so they start to set-up the additional drama-only scenes early, from what I've read, in the original novel, the Emperor's Smile scene is Wei Ying and Lan Zhan's first meeting.

So, what purpose does this brief intro scene serve and why add it? I think part of the reason is narrative cohesion — they aren't going to flip and and forth between the past and the present so they need to set out a clear storyline. And it creates that parallel between Mian Mian and Lan Wangji. Plus, it begins the set-up of the corrupted metal storyline. We get to see the beginnings of the interactions between WWX and LWJ but it's a very different vibe than their later solo talk, because they're in public. LWJ reacts to WWX a few notable times in the conversation  — he hears WWX say the body is cursed, not dead, and that's what makes him turn around. He also hesitates on the path once he's out of sight, making the decision to go talk to his brother. 

The campfire scene with Jiang Yanli and Jiang Cheng has two particularly interesting moments — we do have Jiang Yanli mentioning that WWX won't keep messing around once things are serious, and we have Jiang Cheng saying WWX might be spending time with either a 'Mian Mian' or a 'Yuan Dao' which… is pretty heavy subtext that both that WWX is bisexual and that his siblings know about it which, for the purposes of the drama specifically, would inform how I might read the scenes where Jiang Yanli or Jiang Cheng react to WWX and LWJ's interactions. So, I'm going to take that interpretation into account in the future. That is also, as I understand it, a departure from WWX's characterization in the novel during this time period, but given that they couldn't do a 'queer realization' on-screen due to censorship concerns, this seems like a really clever side-step.

Then we have WWX breaking into the Cloud Recesses and the rooftop fight and it is… so gorgeous. It's a dynamic and beautiful scene that is filled with little character moments and interactions that will matter down the road.

Lan Zhan. Omg bb. Not every problem needs to be solved with your sword. The image of LWJ putting his sword in front of WWX is going to be very common, so it's fun that the first time is a threat and not protection.

WWX trying to bullshit/charm/bribe LWJ to let him in. I love it.

WWX tries so hard to save his alcohol.

The boys each learn that they've met their match, talent-wise. The implications we get at various points are that there isn't a lot of real competition for either of them, until they meet each other.

It's just… it's just really good. Poor LWJ has never felt so simultaneously annoyed and turned on by someone before, I’m pretty sure. Who can blame him tbh?

Also, so: rooftops. They have their ‘first’ fight on a rooftop and their ‘last’ fight on one as well. I’m gonna think about that for a little while.

Oh, man, the punishment assigning scene is also priceless. Lan Xichen finds WWX both charming and intelligent and is intrigued by how much WWX affects his brother's normally calm attitude. Lan Qiren can tell WWX is smart but you know he's thinking "but at what cost?". The moment when WWX clunks his sword down against Lan Qiren's desk and is glared at is hilarious.

You can just really see how different the expectations are for WWX in Yunmeng than the expectations are in Gusu. WWX is good and smart and kind, even this young, and from his perspective, the Gusu rules are so rigid and arbitrary. But for people who thrive on structure, having rules can be helpful. It depends. The rules will definitely come up again.

Then we met Wen Qing!

I mean, Wen Rouhan is also introduced but w/e, Wen Qing is the important one here and we all know it. So, this will come up later and in more detail, but my reading of Wen Qing and WWX's interactions as a whole is that they remind each other of their respective big sister/little brother sibling relationships, so that's the lens I look at them from most of the time. If I recall correctly, they each get at least one scene where they look at the other one and explicitly flashback to thinking about their sibling. 

Here, we establish that Wen Qing is under WRH's thumb and is not thrilled about it, but is made to feel grateful (she’s also not thrilled about that), and even when I was watching the first time, I didn't think she would end up permanently on WRH's side.

The scene with Lan Xichen and Lan Wangji is a good follow-up to the punishment scene earlier -- LXC has noticed that LWJ has a strong reaction to being around WWX and encourages LWJ to explore that potential friendship. I love how genuinely concerned LXC is that his brother might be lonely and overworked.

Our last introduction this episode is to Xue Yang. Here, he’s mostly interesting to me for how his lack of fear contrasts against Wen Qing's concealed terror in her scene with WRH. Xue Yang has no positive connections, nothing he needs to protect or shelter. He doesn’t have anything to lose, so he can play hardball against WRH without any concern. Wen Qing has her brother and her village, both of which are essentially being held hostage against her good behavior. 

Xue Yang also mentions here his lack of ambition for power, which contrasts him against WRH but is one of the ways he is a parallel to WWX. Xue Yang was happy enough living in a city of corpses with no real luxuries. WWX is perfectly happy being a lotus farmer or rogue cultivator. Neither of them need the trappings of wealth and power, because both, perhaps, are so aware from their childhood of how easily that can disappear?

It's something about WWX that most of the Sect leaders have a hard time believing, that WWX doesn't want to be wealthy and powerful for its own sake. WWX uses his power but doesn't hoard it just for the sake of having it. He was never interested in challenging Jiang Cheng for the position of heir or to displace him as Jiang sect leader.

Which isn't to say that Xue Yang and WWX aren't competitive — they enjoy flexing their power and enjoy being 'the best' but there's no power-based endgame they care about. They aren't interested in ruling the world.

What people value and how that affects their choices is definitely a big theme in the series as a whole -- do you value your family name? Your reputation? Wealth and power? Helping people? Staying true to your own convictions? And whatever you pick affects whether or not you can keep the other things. WWX didn’t give a fig about his reputation and so he ended up with a very negative reputation that impacted both his relationships and what he was able to accomplish in the world of cultivation politics. Reputation is social currency, and WWX ended up losing all of his.

But that’s a while ahead.

Next time: more introductions!

Previous Episode | Index | Next Episode

[iacatawam]

I think that Jiang Cheng has a lot of complicated emotions in regards to Wei Wuxian. I also feel that the two of them have somewhat conflicting moralities. For Jiang Cheng, protecting your family and sect is the priority. He tries to be a righteous cultivator but he won’t fight for other people if it is at the expense of his own people (which includes WWX). WWX always wants to do what he views as right, no matter the cost. Including potentially to the Jiang sect, which occasionally puts JC and WWX in conflicting positions. 

A good example of this is during the Indoctrination when WWX wants to help Mianmian but JC stops him. WWX does subside at first because he understands JC’s reasoning but not for long. Which results in WWX saving the day. And Wen Chao using his actions as an excuse to attack Lotus Pier. JC is wrong to blame WWX for the attack but there’s plenty of canon evidence that WWX doesn’t always think through the consequences of his actions and that they have often resulted in causing trouble for JC or the Jiang Sect. Thus JC’s does have justification for feeling that his version of morality is more righteous than WWXs (though I, and most readers/viewers would disagree with him) and his mother also encourages prioritising the sect while disdaining WWX’s choices. Which given Madam Yu’s whole personality and JC’s desire to make her proud of him, puts WWX’s and JC’s opposing moralities even more at conflict.

JC’s feelings are complicated even further because he is not allowed to care for WWX as a brother. Madam Yu makes this clear. Yet at the same time, WWX is treated like his brother, he receives many of the same privileges as JC and Jiang YanLi does treat him as a younger brother. Jiang Fengmian’s treatment of WWX is unclear but he must have been the one to ensure that WWX is considered something of a family member. While Madam Yu clearly disagrees with this.

Everything about WWX’s position in the family is complicated. His very entrance to the sect already sees him being prioritised over JC with JC’s dogs being taken away due to WWX’s trauma (alternate arrangements could have been arranged so that JC could keep his dogs in some respect). So JC feels complicated about WWX from the start, though he tries to get over this, forgiving WWX for his dogs. However, we know that WWX soon began to outshine JC as a cultivator in some ways and that Madam Yu would often compare the two of them and use WWX to criticise JC (while also insulting WWX and other family members too).

JC does treat WWX as family but I think due to Madam Yu, he never allows himself to fully embrace WWX as his brother, but he wants to (even if he doesn’t always acknowledge it). Also WWX is terrible at letting other people help him and showing when he’s hurt, and probably makes it seem like he comes out of everything unscathed (see talk of WWX and his success at ‘attempt the impossible’) so I think JC isn’t in the habit of putting much thought into WWX’s feelings.

I don’t think that WWX fundamentally misunderstands JC. He shows on many occasions that he actually has a good grasp of JC’s personality and motivations. WWX is just terrible at realising how much people care for him. It’s JC’s feelings and actions in regards to himself specifically that WWX fundamentally misunderstands. Which I don’t think JC realises either, since WWX doesn’t act insecure in a way that JC would recognise. So they both end up talking past each other, misinterpreting the other’s actions and reading rejection where there is none.

You guys realise that the reason Jiang Cheng is constantly telling off Wei Wuxian for putting himself out there to protect others is because he is trying to protect Wei Wuxian right?

Every time Wei Wuxian draws attention to himself Jiang Cheng tries to pull him down not out of jealousy but to hide him

Most crucially during the arc where Lotus Pier is destroyed and that Wang Lingjiao demands Wei Wuxian be punished and Madam Yu goes to whip him Jiang Cheng loses his damn mind

Jiang "Stay quiet" Cheng

Jiang "Why put yourself out for others?" Cheng

Jiang "Why do you care if they get hurt?" Cheng

Jiang Cheng that places himself between his mother and Wei Wuxian even at the thread of joining him

Jiang Cheng who doesn't move until Wei Wuxian pushes him

Jiang Cheng who has to be forcibly restrained as he begs his mother to not whip Wei Wuxian

He is fucking terrified and even in the face of his mother and the Wen rep he tries to physically intervene more than once

And it feels like he has watched this to many times (not to that extent but still)

Everything before and everything after until the nightless city is Jiang Cheng trying to save and protect Wei Wuxian

He loves Wei Wuxian enough he would have given almost anything to protect him

But he cannot express his emotions in a healthy well adjusted way

And Wei Wuxian fundamentally does not understand him

Which the reason Jin Ling is close to Jiang Cheng is that he does get it. He does understand that Jiang Cheng is expressing his love in his own way. They are very similar in that way

Wei Wuxian despite growing up with Jiang Cheng does not understand him

Everything between them could be solved if Jiang Cheng didn't hide his feelings behind anger and Wei Wuxian didn't hide his in making jokes

God their relationship is so sad because they are brothers who would literally die for each other but hide that fact from each other and it destroys them both

[drwcn]

What are your opinions on JFM & YZY’s parenting? I’ve never been totally sure, given that YZY is definitely abusive emotionally & physically, to what extent it goes beyond the fact that like, it’s culturally (in Untamed-land) normalized to hit your kids (&...servants?) as punishment and parental authority is HUGE. I know she’s off-base (though also that so is WWX by kid standards - not that that means he *deserves* it), but how off-base is she when it comes to playing her kids against each other & constantly tearing them down (it seems like)? Is JFM’s favoritism vs ignoring his heir also weird?

okay so I’ve been sitting on this for a while because I just didn’t have the mental capacity to talk about this. 

Disclaimer: What I say regarding YZY and JFM will probably be coloured by my own experiences growing up with Asian parents. I had a good life, with strict but loving parents. I never questioned my parents’ concern and love for me, though when I say they were strict, I do mean they were strict. Despite fights, I continue to have a good relationship with my parents, and as I grew up, maturity and experience gave me some perspectives I didn’t have a child.  

The fandom, at least the English speaking one, in my opinion, interprets YZY and JFM in a way that is often removed from the cultural and context under which these two characters are written. It is no one’s fault, but it does speak to the fact that there is a lack of understanding of familial dynamics that naturally exist in an Asian family. Sometimes, I feel like people also project whatever displeasure they have with their own folks onto YZY and JFM. 

^ This statement will invariably piss off some people, and I am recognizing this in advance. Rather than arguing, you can just block me. It will save both of us a lot of grief. 

1) Jiang Fengmian absolutely care about Jiang Cheng. No matter how much JFM favours WWX, Jiang Cheng is sect heir and that has never been a question. 

Sometimes I would read a fanfic and ppl would have wildly outrageous plot points ie: JFM not inviting JC to an important sect event. I can’t even finish the sentence in those cases. I just ‘nope’ the heck out of there. 

I’m sure if JFM had a choice, he would’ve chosen to have children with a woman he loved from the beginning. But just because his children aren’t born by the love of his life doesn’t mean he doesn’t love and care about them. Jiang Cheng is his son and heir, and that means something not just in Asian culture, but across cultures. To say that JFM doesn’t care about JC is...baseless. I certainly never saw any evidence of that in the show. The relationship a sire has with his heir is more than just that of father and son; it will never be a simple familial relationship and that’s not just in The Untamed. I would even say that a sire can’t love his heir the way a regular father loves a son. There is not just familial love between them but a delicate power dynamic, and a greater expectation and demand for excellence and respect. It would be more obvious when there are multiple sons, because then Power will play a much bigger role within the sibling and father-son relationships. 

Jiang Fengmian favours Wei Wuxian. I think that much is obvious and without question, but he would never make Wei Wuxian his heir. Jiang Yanli would inherit before Wei Wuxian. WWX has no chance in hell in replacing JFM’s legitimate children even if he was JFM’s bastard child, because that’s just how inheritance works. Now, parents have favorites. Every parent does, unless you’re an only child. Parents are people, and they’re imperfect. If I have learned anything in life is that... we’re all just winging it as we go. Every single one of us. We only go through each stage of life once. There are no do-overs. Parents are no exception. Each child will have a different personality, and to think their parents will like all of them equally is... unreasonable. There is a difference between like and love. Parents can love their kids equally, but they will like some more than others. That’s just fact.  

Now, did JFM make JC feel like WWX embodied their sect’s motto more than him? Not overtly, but that’s certainly the effect I think his favoritism caused. And also, JFM probably just vibed with WWX more as a parent. The entire fandom is like up in arms about that, saying how he neglected JC, but here’s the thing: making your child feel inadequate is like the bedrock of Asian parenting. If I could have a dollar for every time my parents used “other people’s children” to tell me how I should do better, I’d make a significant dent into my student debt. (To give you some context: I graduated high school in the top 1% of my province and I scored in the 97th percentile on the MCAT). Now you can tell me that’s so toxic and abusive or whatever, but a lot of Asian kids will just shrug it off. It is such a shared experience we can laugh about it in hindsight and turn it into a meme  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. (TwoSet Violin fans: no matter how good we are, we can never be as good as Ling Ling.) Now I’m not saying that it’s a very...effective parenting method or one that should be condoned, but I certainly didn’t bat an eye at it when I saw it on The Untamed. 

2) Physical discipline is a frequently used trope in cdrama and not considered abuse. You will not see this in modern dramas, because it is no longer acceptable in many asian families. But when it’s a historical drama, people don’t usually care bc....it’s....historical...and fictional. 

That being said, Yu Ziyuan is certainly not the world’s kindest stepmother. But to say that WWX grew up constantly abused is... conjecture. Your Honour, objection, insufficient proof. If WWX did something wrong, if he misbehaved or broke the rule or caused trouble, I’m sure YZY wouldn’t hesitate to deal with it as was the custom of that time, but Wei Wuxian wasn’t scrubbing no floors like Cinderella, okay? He’s clearly a well-fed and respected young master of Lotus Pier. I remember so distinctively when JC and WWX came home, and one of the maids ran through the halls, calling out “The gongzis have returned!” If you wanna be really granular, technically speaking Lotus Pier only has one gongzi, and that’s JC, but as we can see Wei Wuxian was treated like a second son, and that’s 100% above his station. He ate at the same table as the main family. No other disciple was allowed to do that.  

Yu Ziyuan will be eternally salty about this, but no she wasn’t verbally and physically abusing her kids 24/7. She was mad because Wen Ruohan was asking the sects to send their heirs and Jiang Fengmian was once again being avoidant and quiet, and she was up in arms. In her opinion, JFM should stop being a bitch and do something. And honestly, being yelled at while eating is also one of those fundamentally Asian experiences. IDK what to tell you. That part of the script was so good - I literally both loled and cringed - because that’s exactly what an average asian family looks like when shit hits the fan. 

3) And finally: Love. Asian families just aren’t verbally affectionate, but damn do we show up and pull through when we need to. 

If there’s anything we gleamed from the Jiangs is that, fuck I may not really like you, but I will die with you if that’s what it comes down to, because I am your husband/wife/son/daughter/brother/sister, and I won’t leave you behind. It’s a hard thing to explain: I love you even when I hate you. Jiang Fengmian and Yu Ziyuan died holding each other’s hand. I think that says plenty. 

I’ve never told my family I love them, because I don’t have to. Love has nothing to do with it. My folks always said that western culture focused too much on love, that there are more important things. I don’t necessarily agree with that, but I do see what they’re trying to say. Like: you visit your old and dying grandpa in the hospital even if he was an asshole to you his entire life, not because you love him, but because he’s your grandfather and you have to. Under this point of view, you’ll never be free of your family. There’s a saying: even if you break the bones you’ll be connected by tendon. I don’t know if that’s healthy, but who’s to say? It’s just the way it is. 

Like I said, that’s just my two cents. I’m not an expert by any stretch of the imagination. I can only speak from experience, which is of course not generalizable to everyone. Take from it what you will. 

[drwcn]

CQL!AU: Everyone is an orphan except Wei Wuxian, and the Twin Jades are dark practitioners. Needless to say, that changes things. (canon what canon) 

Master Post

~

[1-3]

[1] Jiang Fengmian and Yu Ziyuan were the ones who died early. Wei Changze returned to Lotus Pier to become the guardian and regent of his best friend’s son and heir. 

Lotus Pier was black and white. Lifeless. 

That was the first thought that crossed Cangse Sanren’s mind when she and Wei Changze docked at the port, swords in hand, and their little son in toll. 

The people mourned. Posts were temporarily closed, the market suspended. Windows and doors of their bustling riverside town were firmly shut, with white and black drapes hanging from its sills and fluttering in the wind. 

Jiang Fengmian and Yu Ziyuan were dead. Two young cultivators, parents, taken from this world too young, gone before their time. 

“A-Ying, come child,” Cangse extended a hand to the boy who glanced around at the unfamiliar place with timid curiosity. 

“A-niang, what’s going on?” 

“No questions. You must behave yourself today.” Cangse brought her son closer to her, watching her husband’s usually smiling, gentle face pull taut into a mask that betrayed none of the grief he felt underneath. He held himself taller today, shoulders pulled back, spine rod-straight and jaws clenched. She’d forgotten, after all these wonderful years of travelling the world with their family, that this place was once his home. 

“Er’shixiong,” a man greeted them at the pier, flanked by a party of younger Jiang disciples, all appropriately garbed with white sashes around their waist. “Cangse-daozhang.” 

They had spoken in depth about returning. Cangse knew there was nothing she could do to stop him; Changze’s devotion to Jiang Fengmian ran deeper than she understood. It was never herself that Yu Ziyuan should’ve resented; though however misplaced Madam Yu’s jealousy had been, it was a moot point now.  

Chang’ge, I will not ask you to choose between your love for him and your promise to me. If Lotus Pier is where you wish to go, I will go with you. I cannot promise however that I will always stay. That — is not my nature. 

Thank you, Wumei*. I understand. 

They found Jiang Wanyin, the little lord, and his sister Jiang Yanli, in their mourning robes, kneeling and crying before their parents’ funeral altar.  

Wei Changze sunk to his knees beside them, and folded his body until his forehead hit the ground. “Shixiong,” he spoke to the spirits. “I’ve come back.” 

“Who are you?!” The boy Jiang Cheng, five-years-old and hurting, blurted out rudely through his tears. His sister held him from behind and gave a trembling nod of deference to the older man. 

“Wei-shishu.”  

Beside her, clinging to her skirt, Wei Ying looked up and asked quietly, “A-niang, are we going to stay?” 

Cangse Sanren, the favoured fifth pupil of Baoshan Sanren herself, smiled down quietly at her only child and smoothed back his hair. “Yes, A-Ying we will. Lotus Pier is home now.” 

(JC 5 yro; WWX 5 yro; JYL 8 yro)

[2] When Qingheng-jun’s respected mentor died - murdered - he made a very different choice. He turned his back on his clan and his responsibilities, and escaped into the wild with the woman he loved. They were just an ordinary family, living away from the chaos in a paradise of their own. But even Eden eventually falls, and nothing gold ever stays... 

Take A-Huan and A-Zhan and go! Do not stop until you are safe. Do not turn around. Do not come back. 

Shijie! You’re injured! Let me help you - 

Zhao Ming! Zhao Zhuliu, you listen to me: their names, Lan Xichen for the older, and Lan Wangji for the younger. It’s what their father and I wanted for them. 

Shijie - jiejie - 

Now go! Go! 

A-Niang, come with us! A-Niang, don’t go!! A-Niang!!! 

The forest burned like the autumn sun at dusk descending from the sky, red and golden and glorious. A single figure stood amongst the flames, corpses littered at her feet. Bichen fell from her grip, barely making a sound as it landed against dampened earth, soaked with Lan blood.  Those who fought her were dead, but she feared that she did not have long either.

“Rong-gege,” Qiu Baiti collapsed onto her hands and dragged her body towards the man who lay still amongst the carnage, arrows piercing his front, his sword Shuoyue still clutched tight in his left hand. 

Lifeless eyes remained open, as though he could not rest. 

“Rong-gege,” Baiti called helplessly, crawling to him and laying her head down against his chest. There used to be a heartbeat there, and if she closed her eyes, she could almost hear it again. “Wait, don’t go without me...” 

She was so tired and bled from so many places. It was not until a sharp cry and a familiar face descended from the sky that Qiu Baiti realized the inferno which surrounded her was not yet hell. 

"Qiu-jiejie!" Cangse rushed forth, almost tripping over the corpse of a dead Lan disciple in her haste. “Lan-da’ge, he -” A horrified gasp drowned the rest of her words. 

“Cangse...you’re here...” 

Cangse gathered her bosom sister into her arms and immediately drew upon a torrent of spiritual energy from her core, channeling them into her fingertips to heal her friend. She could tell that whatever combat Qiu Baiti had been through, it had already taken the little life inside her, and now hers was following it to the other side.   

“Hold on, I can save you - hold on -”

“Cangse - Cang - stop, it’s too late.” Qiu Baiti lay limp there.  

Death, it drew near, but she was ready. She closed her eyes as a slip of tear escaped beneath her lashes. "I did this to him, to all of them... if I hadn't...it’s all my fault. I was the one they wanted; he was just trying to protect me. A-Huan, A-Zhan...."

Trembling and in near hysterics, Cangse sobbed, “No, don’t say that! Where are the boys?” 

“Safe. A-Ming has them...you mustn’t tell anyone. Not anyone, promise me. Not even Lan Qiren. Especially Lan Qiren... Rong-gege trusts his brother, but I - I - promise me - promise -” Qiu Baiti gasped for breath, gurgling blood in her throat with each laboured attempt. 

“Qiu-jiejie, please - don’t - I - I promise.” 

“Good...Cangse...” Qiu Baiti clutched her hand and smiled, a crimson wound cutting across her pale, beautiful face. “Good.” 

And then she died, with the red of the forest flames still in her eyes. 

Cangse held her friend - dear, damned, dead - and allowed a scream to tear through herself. From the depth of her grief, she released a pulse of unrestrained spiritual energy that rippled through the dense woods as though the storm of her anguish could not be contained. And like a measly candle-light assaulted by the winter wind, the forest fire was extinguished in an instant. 

The sun was gone, and the night was dark.  All was quiet, but there was no peace to be found. 

 Cangse buried Lan Cenrong and Qiu Baiti in two unmarked graves side by side beneath a tall oak tree. She sifted through the bodies and the grime and collected the spiritual weapons they left behind — Shuoyue, Bichen, Liebing (cracked in two places) and the strings of Qiu Baiti’s shattered guqin — and stored them away in her qiankun pouch. She hoped one day that she would find Zhao Zhuliu and the sons Lan Cenrong and Qiu Baiti had left behind, and return these items to their rightful owners. 

It was not until three years later, not too far from her shifu Baoshan’s sacred temple nestled in the snowy mountain peak, where Jiang Yanli had been brought to strengthen her health and train as Cangse’s direct disciple, that Cangse perchance came across Zhao Ming again. 

He was accompanied by two youngsters, two beautiful jade-like children who called him jiufu. Cangse was not surprised in the least to find that both of them have learned the technique for which their mother and jiujiu were hunted: the core-melting hand. 

(LXC 9, LWJ 6 -> LXC 12, LWJ 9 ) 

[3] They called her “The Little Queen”. Wen Qing never wanted to be Sect Master, or Deputy Sect Master, or Regent Sect Master. She just wanted to live quietly with A-Ning and Wen-popo and study the art of healing that her parents practiced. But alas, life had other plans. 

Wen Qing was a month short of her tenth birthday when her life changed forever. 

Wen Ruohan, her father’s older cousin, who’d always been close with her family, had come to visit Dafan. Wen-bobo didn’t have siblings, and her father Wen Ruotian was as close as a brother to him, more than any other Wen descendent of their time. 

Wen Qing liked Wen Ruohan well. He was doting and found her intelligent. Her parents chose the simple village life, but they often spent New Years and holy days at Nevernight at Sect Master Wen’s behest and invitation.  

When Wen Ruohan came to Dafan and told her folks that there was a piece of the Yin Iron inside the Stone Fairy, her father had been eager to help, though weary he was of those powers he could not understand. 

He’d been right to be afraid. 

The extraction had gone horribly wrong, and the rebound of dark energy had eviscerated all those near by, her mother, her father, and Wen Ruohan himself. It was by the skin of her teeth that Wen Qing managed to yank her baby brother Wen Ning out of the way. Then, without thinking, she caught the vile, wretched thing as it sailed through the air. It landed in the palm of her hands, and there she stood, regarded with fear and bewonderment from all those in witness as the cursed item, which burned the life out of cultivators much older and seasoned than her, quieted in her small hands. 

The Elders said she had...a nature affinity. For what, they could not say. 

Wen Qing was brought back to Nevernight and given the name Yuefan: to exceed mortality. Within days, the heavy crown of Sect Master of Qishan Wen was placed on her head. 

It was then that she learned that her Wen-bobo, with no inclination to marry and bind himself to another, did not leave behind a legitimate heir. His young sons, 4-year old Wen Xu and 2 year-old Wen Chao were born to him by women of ill repute.  They were kind, good boys, but they were infantile and illegitimate. Wen Qing felt for them, but she could not change their fate. So for the time being, she accepted what she had to. 

The adults did what they could for her, but there was no one in the cold, vast palace of Nevernight to mind her or nurture her. She stood alone upon the towers where the eternal flames, fuelled by Qishan Wen’s combined spiritual energy, burned in their iron brazier, and watched over the lush volcanic mountain range that was hers to govern and protect. Those beneath her - servants, disciples - feared her and her unknown powers. Those advising her - Elders, mentors - had their own agendas. In any case, they stopped seeing her as a child the minute she held the Yin Iron in her hands and lived to tell the tale. 

It was a secret, they told her. She must guard it well. 

The Chief Cultivator Jin Guangshan sent his ambassadors to congratulate her succession. Gusu’s Lan Qiren and Qinghe’s Nie Heqiu both arrived consecutively to pay their respects to their ten-year-old colleague and fellow Sect Master. 

There was a momentary rumble amongst the Wen Elders about whether Nie Heqiu’s older son Nie Mingjue would be a good match for her someday, but as he too was set to inherit, the idea was put aside as quickly as it was brought up. 

Then came Yunmeng’s regent Wei Changze, bringing along an entourage of Jiang disciples and a boy one year her junior, the son he conceived with the revered Cangse Sanren. 

Wei Wuxian. 

Wen Qing liked him enough. He was spontaneous, agreeable, and clever, and he found her aloofness fun to provoke. They would’ve both been satisfied with the arrangement had she not met Yunmeng Jiang’s young Jiang-zongzhu some years later, and had he not crossed paths with the vengeful and infamous Lan Wangji. 

But life, as the gods have planned it, must have its mysteries. 

(WQ 10, WWX 9) 

TBH?  

Note: 

Wumei - fifth sister, Wei Changze’s nickname for Cangse. 

Details of Cangse and Wei Changze’s name as well as Qingheng-jun and Madam Lan’s name can be found here .

jiufu 舅父 - maternal uncle, formal.  

[drwcn]

I was reading your post about consent for surgery and I had a question. Aren't there cases where if the patient is not of sound mind or unable to make an informed decision, then family can decide for them? That's not to say that WWX was entirely of sound mind at that point (he'd also been through insane trauma & was trying desperately to hold onto the family he had left). But JC was in a much worse state and retrospectively I agree JC would never have agreed to taking anyone else's core, but 1/2

I know I said i wasn’t going to answer asks until I’m done my exams but this one just came in and it’s a topic close and dear to my heart, so I’m going to take a couple of minutes to answer it. Thank you for the ask, but I think this brings up a lot of misconceptions of what is medical consent, capacity, competency, and substitute decision making. This is a very complicated and legally heavy topic. So it will be a long post. I apologize for that. 

There are several misconceptions in the ask, and I will be addressing them in this order: 

That Jiang Cheng is “not of sound mine” and cannot “make an informed decision”. 

The role of family and substitute decision making 

“force a life saving measure on a family member”. 

Issue 1 : Jiang Cheng is not competent and has no capacity to consent. 

There is no doubt that Jiang Cheng has gone through significant trauma, and that he is emotionally fragile, but this does not medically equate him to having no capacity to make surgical decisions and this certainly does not make him legally incompetent. If I may, I will define “informed decision”, “capacity” and “competency”.  

The criteria of obtaining informed consent is described below. 

Decision maker must: 

Be aware of his/her right to withdraw consent at any time

Be free of undue influence, duress or coercion in making the consent decision (aka no one is paying them or holding a gun to their head)

Receive a proper explanation that includes but is not limited to:

diagnosis reached

advised interventions and treatments;

exact nature and anticipated benefits of the proposed examination, assessment, treatment or procedure;

common risks and significant risks; 

reasonable alternative treatments available, and the associated common risks and significant risks; and

natural history of the condition and the consequences of forgoing treatment;

All of this must be explained to the patient before a procedure can be undertaken. And the patient must be able to understand what is told, and to appreciate the gravity of their choice. This brings us to the idea of “capacity”. 

Capacity is not how emotionally distressed you are, or how traumatized you are. If my partner (the love of my life) and I both got into a horrible car accident, but I sustained minor injuries while he requires significant surgery, you can reasonably assume that I am in deep emotional distress. However, if I were his POA (power of attorney), I would still have the capacity to decide and consent for his surgery on his behalf if he is no longer capable (e.g.: he is unconscious).  

Capacity refers to a person’s ability to make a decision that is “task specific”. As in, can he make a decision about this particular thing we’re asking him. It requires the person (Jiang Cheng) to:

Reason and deliberate - can Jiang Cheng make logical sense of the procedure and its consequences.  

Hold appropriate values and goals - Jiang Cheng would want to protect his family, avenge his parents and defeat Wen Ruohan. 

Appreciate one's circumstances - does Jiang Cheng know that without his surgery he will never get core back? Does he know the risks of the surgery to himself, to his brother, and its chances of success? 

Understand information one is given - are Jiang Cheng’s cognitive functions intact to for him to understand and appreciate the information given? 

And communicate a choice.

Can Jiang Cheng do all of that? The conclusion of the assessment for capacity ultimately lies with the attending physician. Medical capacity is a result of a physician’s assessment. Capacity wasn’t even a consideration for Jiang Cheng. Wen Qing agreed because Wei Wuxian begged, and probably because she also felt guilty. And that’s not how she should’ve done it. 

From what I have seen on the show, Jiang Cheng is capable. I can say with 99% confidence that what happened to him is a gross violation of his bodily autonomy and his rights. No physician would agree to do a surgery the way Wen Qing did. In a way, she was compromised, and she should’ve seen that there was a conflict of interest between herself, Wei Wuxian, and her patient Jiang Cheng. If I were her, I would be mortified that I had done something like this. 

On the other hand, competency is a legal status. It doesn’t change with activity and task. A judge needs to decide this and once you’re deemed incompetent, there’s usually no going back. This doesn’t really apply in CQL because...well they don’t have a judicial system. I can explain competency fully in another ask if you’re still interested. One thing I will say is that even “incompetent” individuals can have “capacity” for certain decisions. E.g: my grandmother with dementia while she cannot decide whether she undergoes a knee replacement or not, she can decide that she doesn’t want apple sauce with her morning meal. Again, competency is a global assessment leading to a legal status change, whereas capacity is task specific. 

Issue 2: the role of family and substitute decision maker 

Substitute decision makers (SDM) are brought in when the patient is deemed lacking capacity to make a certain decision, and as I have explained above, Jiang Cheng does not qualify as lacking capacity. In modern law, the role of SDM is different from country to country, even provinces/states to provinces/states. 

For a lot places, pediatric patients are not able to consent for themselves and their parents are usually their SDM. This is not the case where I live. Children, as long as they are assessed by their physician to be capable of making specific decisions, will be able to make decisions in their medical treatment. This assessment is on-going throughout medical care. In many other places, parents are the SDMs. However: please note that good medical practice will still include the children in the discussion of their care as much as is appropriate for their age and ability, and that while they cannot consent, clinicians must try their best to obtain children’s ‘assent’ (aka their agreement and cooperation).  

For seniors with dementia, their SDMs are their spouse or in lack that, their children. Without a specific POA - power of attorney, that is the one person the patient has written down as their legal SDM - all SDMs on the same level must come to an agreement before a procedure can be carried out. What do I mean by that? SDMs come in levels. Where I live, at the top level is the spouse. Without a specific designated POA, spouse is always SDM, their decision trumps everyone else’s. Without a spouse, the next on the list is usually children. If there are multiple children, they must all agree on what to do for mom or dad before the doctor can act. If they can’t agree, there’s usually a due process where physicians can petition the court to have a designated third-party SDM appointed.  In all cases with SDMs, they should not be acting according to their own values but the values and wishes of the patient to be best of their understanding. If doctors suspect that SDMs are not following the values of their patient, there is also a process where they can petition the court to have the SDMs’ rights removed. It’s a very lengthy process and this doesn’t happen often. 

For Jiang Cheng, if for example he never gained consciousness (so he is completely incompetent) and we consider Jiang Yanli and Wei Wuxian to be at the same SDM level (JC’s siblings), then they should’ve had a discussion with Jiang Cheng’s values and beliefs in mind and come to a conclusion together. Only that decision should be implemented. Of course, this didn’t happen because WWX and his martyr complex made an unilateral decision for himself based on what he thinks is right.

Issue 3: Forcing people to live against their will.  

Does this happen? Tragically yes. It does. Should it happen? No. Absolutely no. 

The grey areas are when a senior never wrote in legal documentation explicitly that they don’t want life sustaining measure, but that maybe in passing they’ve mentioned to their nurse or physician. When they become incompetent (coma, dementia, delirium, stroke, rapid decline in cognitive function), the children want everything to be done for dad or mom, and refuse to switch to palliative care or to end life support. 

In those cases, unfortunately, many institutions will go with the families’ wishes because hospitals don’t want to be sued, and families do sue, even when all the medical team has done is respect the patient’s wishes. 

There are many pediatric cases as well where parents cannot cope with their loss and can’t let go. The child could be brain-dead or in persistent vegetative state, and so even though nurses and doctors feel a lot of moral distress at continuously giving aggressive measure that they know it won’t help, they can’t stop. Because if they do, they can get sued. And sometimes it’s not even just a matter of lawsuits. These things can get crazy, media can twist the truth and people can get death threats. Feel free to google these cases. 

So yeah, it happens. But it shouldn’t. Just because it happens, doesn’t mean it’s right. 

And this doesn’t apply to Jiang Cheng. Because he isn’t brain dead, he isn’t in a coma, he doesn’t have frontal cortex damage, he doesn’t dementia. He is in complete control of all his faculties. So what happened to him was a crime. And if there are other examples where patients were forced into/lied to about medical procedures by their family, those are crimes too. 

And yes CQL is a tv show set in fantasy china, so does it all really matter? I guess, if you don’t care that much about the drama, then no, it doesn’t matter. But keep in mind this wasn’t a historical drama, we’re not analyzing a historical figures’s actions with modern ethics. That would be misplaced. This was a fantasy drama, written by a modern girl, living in modern society. And its audiences are people living in the global community, so it should matter how it impacts the viewers who watch it. 

From a modern western medical perspective, Jiang Cheng does not owe Wei Wuxian, Wen Qing, and Wen Ning anything. I liked Wen Ning up until he threw the core surgery reveal in Jiang Cheng’s face so cruelly. People cheered him on, but I was very upset. 

Jiang Cheng owes these three nothing. Not a damn thing.