#and of lesbians relationships and culture which other wlw are also part of (its giving lavender menace)

[mrgaretcarter]

Honestly I think it would do us all well to go back to kinda cringy feminism again for a little bit idk cause I think maybe for some people the discourse somehow circled back around to supporting sexism just rebranded or whatever so its more aesthetic

[obligatorilypretentious]

queer classic book recs!!

Image description under the cut! Please tell me if I did something wrong and I will gladly change it!

The other recs will be in the reblog!

[Each slide excluding the title screen includes 3 photos relating to the book, largely alternative covers of each in a small grid format.]

Slide One: In the center is a box with interior text reading "13 lgbtq classics and 1 “modern” classic. Recs in the comments welcome!" The top left corner includes an image of a calligraphy quill. Underneath this is text that reads "Disclaimer! The beginning of this list is.. Very White, but don't worry it gets more diverse as the books get more recent!!" In the top right corner is a text box reading "Look up trigger warnings or I’ll steal your gender! … or give it back!!" under this is a picture of an open book displayed in the foreground and another stack of books in the background.

Slide Two: Carmilla by J. Sheridan Le Fanu.

1872

Lesbian/wlw but written by a man

vampires!

“Following a near-fatal carriage collision, the beautiful young Carmilla is taken in by the narrator Laura and her father.”

While this book plays into the stereotype of the “monteress, seductive lesbian,” it is one of the oldest and most famous classical texts depicting a lesbian relationship. Toxic AF.

Slide Three: The Picture of Dorian Gray by Oscar Wilde

1890

not explicitly queer (subtext)

but gay (mlm) tho

“Enthralled by his own exquisite portrait, Dorian Gray exchanges his soul for eternal youth and beauty. Influenced by his friend Lord Henry Wotton, he is drawn into a corrupt double life, indulging his desires in secret while remaining a gentleman in the eyes of polite society. Only his portrait bears the traces of his decadence.”

This book contains Anti-semitism, Racism, Sexism and is honestly a product of its time. Oscar Wilde is certainly a character.

Slide Four: Orlando by Virginia Woolf

1928

sapphic/gender exploration

“The novel opens as Orlando, a young nobleman in Elizabeth's England, awaits a visit from the Queen and traces his experience with first love as England under James I lies locked in the embrace of the Great Frost.”

Main Character is racist and anti-Semitic. While her writing is incredibly important and impactful as a queer figure, she will always be white before she is queer.

Slide Five: The Well of Loneliness by Radclyffe Hall

1928

lesbian/wlw

originally banned

“Stephen is an ideal child of aristocratic parents—a fencer, a horse rider, and a keen scholar. Stephen grows to be a war hero, a bestselling writer, and a loyal, protective lover. But Stephen is a woman, and her lovers are women. As her ambitions drive her, and society confines her, Stephen is forced into desperate actions.”

This book contains racism, use of the N-word, sexism, homophobia & lots of outdated ideas in general.

Slide Six: Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin

1956

gay/mlm

“In a 1950s Paris swarming with expatriates and characterized by dangerous liaisons and hidden violence, an American finds himself unable to repress his impulses, despite his determination to live the conventional life he envisions for himself. After meeting and proposing to a young woman, he falls into a lengthy affair with an Italian bartender and is confounded and tortured by his sexual identity as he oscillates between the two.”

OMG! A classic on this list in which I can't find any evidence of racism or antisemitism! /srs. Imagine that- it's almost like POC classical authors are important to teach about! /hj

Slide Seven: Maurice by E.M. Forster

1971

gay/mlm

fluffy, but homophobia exists in the story as well.

“Maurice is heartbroken over unrequited love, which opened his heart and mind to his own sexual identity. In order to be true to himself, he goes against the grain of society’s often unspoken rules of class, wealth, and politics.”

This book contains the use of the g slur. Please tell me if I missed something!

Slide Eight: HERmione by H.D.

1981

queer/sapphic woman author

poetry

so mf sad bro I mean look at that blurb

“An interior self-portrait of the poet H.D. (1886-1961) is what can best be described as a 'find', a posthumous treasure. ‘I am Hermione Gart, a failure' -she cried in her dementia, 'I am Her, Her, Her.”

To my knowledge, this book isn't problematic- please tell me if it is though!!

Slide Nine: Zami: A New Spelling of My Name by Audre Lorde

1982

lesbian/wlw

A staple of lesbian lit from before the peak of an activist’s career. Great read.

“From the author's vivid childhood memories in Harlem to her coming of age in the late 1950s, the nature of Audre Lorde's work is cyclical. It especially relates the linkage of women who have shaped her.”

Once again to my knowledge, this book isn't problematic

Slide Ten: The Color Purple by Alice Walker

1982

features queer women

has a movie adaptation!

“Separated as girls, sisters Celie and Nettie sustain their loyalty to and hope in each other across time, distance, and silence. Through a series of letters spanning twenty years, first from Celie to God, then the sisters to each other despite the unknown, the novel draws readers into its rich and memorable portrayals of Celie, Nettie, Shug Avery, and Sofia and their experience.”

Once again to my knowledge, this book isn't problematic

Slide Eleven: Oranges Are Not the Only Fruit by Jeanette Winterson

1985

lesbian/wlw

“This is the story of Jeanette, adopted and brought up by her mother as one of God's elect. Zealous and passionate, she seems destined for life as a missionary, but then she falls for one of her converts. At sixteen, Jeanette decides to leave the church, her home, and her family, for the young woman she loves. Innovative, punchy, and tender.”

Once again to my knowledge, this book isn't problematic- but warning, there are quite heavy themes!

Slide Twelve: Dykes to Watch Out For by Alison Bechdel

1986

lesbian/wlw

a classic comedy comic + a really good insight & look into lesbian culture

“Grin, giggle, and guffaw your way through this celebrated cartoonist's graphic commentary of contemporary lesbian life.”

Once again to my knowledge, this book isn't problematic*

*contains d-slur used by lesbians in a non-offensive way

Slide Thirteen: Stone Butch Blues by Leslie Feinberg

1993

lesbian/gender identity around lesbianism

“Woman or man? This internationally acclaimed novel looks at the world through the eyes of Jess Goldberg, a masculine girl growing up in the "Ozzie and Harriet" McCarthy era and coming out as a young butch lesbian in the pre-Stonewall gay drag bars of a blue-collar town. Stone Butch Blues traces a propulsive journey, powerfully evoking history and politics while portraying an extraordinary protagonist full of longing, vulnerability, and working-class grit.”

Once again to my knowledge, this book isn't problematic

Slide Fourteen: Tipping the Velvet by Sarah Waters

1998

lesbian/wlw

historical romance

“Nan King, an oyster girl, is captivated by the music hall phenomenon Kitty Butler, a male impersonator extraordinaire treading the boards in Canterbury. Through a friend at the box office, Nan manages to visit all her shows and finally meet her heroine. Soon after, she becomes Kitty's dresser, and the two head for the bright lights of Leicester Square where they begin a glittering career as music-hall stars in an all-singing and dancing double act. At the same time, behind closed doors, they admit their attraction to each other and their affair begins.”

Once again to my knowledge, this book isn't problematic

Slide Fifteen: Under the Udala Trees By Chinelo Okparanta

2015

lesbian/wlw

modern classic imo, look into the coexistence of native Nigerian culture & queerness

“Ijeoma comes of age as her nation does; born before independence, she is eleven when civil war breaks out in the young republic of Nigeria. Sent away to safety, she meets another displaced child, and they, star-crossed, fall in love. They are from different ethnic communities. They are also both girls. When their love is discovered, Ijeoma learns that she will have to hide this part of herself. But there is a cost to living inside a lie.”

Once again to my knowledge, this book isn't problematic

[fencesandfrogs]

“i love you”: ambiguity in media

spoilers for she-ra. the entire show. especially the last season. but if you don’t care i’ve also added context. so it’s not mandatory watching.

spacer gif for spoilers. also cause its cute.

okay so i’m still thinking about the scene where glimmer says, “i love you,” and bow kisses her on the temple, and it’s just the cutest thing and my heart says “squee”.

i wrote something about gay media & the necessary differences in gay tales and ATM it has not been posted bc i routinely shuffle my queue but the basic thesis of it is: gay romance stories are inherently different from straight ones, because it is impossible to separate them from homophobia. and i kind of ran into a wall writing it because homophobia is really hard to ignore on earth because its omnipresent and it dramatically affects gay youth growing up.

and then i watched she-ra, which has lesbians*, in case you didn’t know, and also basically zero homophobia.

*also gays, but the titular character is a lesbian, so.

which damn, was very refreshing. like. yeah. sign me up for that.

so. adora and catra are adorable lesbians w/ shared traumatic experiences and their character arcs are interesting and wonderful and there’s a lot of great analysis of that already and here’s one that sums it up better than i ever could: 

love that. they’re adorable. i love them.

bow & glimmer are also best friends who get together at the end of the show & have a lot of parallels to catra and adora minus the trauma and also including crushing weights of responsibility.

uhh so catra & glimmer both make a mistake at one point during the show that basically irreparably wrecks the world and requires sacrifice of life to solve. adora is the intended sacrifice each time but this isn’t about adora, i just want to give context for this.

so catra has the explanation of trauma and the scared behaviors of a traumatized teen. like. she makes mistakes for an understandable reason. again. not about her. just giving context.

glimmer on the other hand basically throws a fit that her friends have other friends. i mean. glimmer has problems but her mistakes are not like, “you know if you were raised in a loving home this prob wouldn’t have happened” because she was raised in a loving home. it’s more like “you know if you didn’t become queen at age, like, 17, this probably wouldn’t have happened.”

(side note, i don’t know how old the characters in she-ra are. i read them as 15-17 in the beginning of the series and 18-20 by the end, and i’m just not really sure. because you know, cartoons & child soldiers do not accurate age placing make. catra and adora’s arc speaks to me ages 15-18ish because that is when i had a similar arc.

according to the wiki adora starts around 17 and ends around 20. which is w/in my own estimations i’m just commenting.)

right so glimmer apologizes to bow and is all “look you don’t have to forgive me, i don’t have a right to that, but i’m not going to stop trying to earn your forgiveness,” and bow, well, he says “okay”

and. you know. i feel that.

(more side notes: i, age 17ish, broke up w my boyfriend. for reasons. we got back together. for other reasons. repairing the bond of trust is hard. because i was not secure that he loved me, and he was not secure that i wouldn’t leave if something went wrong. so you know. i feel glimmer, here.

yes, she made a mistake and no, she does not have a right to forgiveness. but she’s also a kid, who has had one friend for her entire life, and is only just beginning to learn how to share friends, and she thinks she lost him, and that desperation and rejection is painful. she was lashing out, and she never intended this to happen.)

so glimmer & bow throughout the show have romantic tension, but in a soft way. in a, bow goes to a ball with someone else and glimmer gets jealous but it’s also directly stated she’s jealous because she’s sharing her friend way.

plus there’s a scene that definitely has some strong glimmer x adora vibes is what i’m saying

it’s not this specific scene but idk what to search for to find it & i’m not fighting w tumblr to include external images again i’ve been hurt before.

anyway.

so when glimmer says, “i love you,” my heart pounds in a new way, because what does she mean by that? does she love him?

and at some point in this adora has a fantasy future where bow and glimmer are together & it’s adorable but i’m mentioning to explicitly say that it’s not relevant because bow and glimmer r def not together before this moment.

anyway bow kisses glimmer on the forehead and my heart go “thumpthumpthumpthumpthump” real real fast and it’s cute and i text my boyfriend a bunch of hearts because that’s what i do when i see cute couples i’m a soft gay nerd.

and the thing is? i’m also thinking, “wow there is so much ambiguity” there.

and then. i realized. this is why gay romance is fundamentally different. because american culture is not very touch-y, especially across gendered lines.

& i have a very physically affectionate family. i will cuddle the homies. i will kiss them on the temple. (ok i won’t do that bc my boyfriend would not like that n i respect that it’s legit i kiss him on the temple instead. mb i’ll write about boundaries in relationships where people have different understandings of physical affection.) so like? did not occur to me before to discuss this.

but there’s a huge ambiguity in gay romance. it’s hard to write gay romance that’s explicitly gay (especially wlw since men r less affectionate & more stereotyped in media imo and that’s another discussion but there’s a reason i’m focusing on catra and adora in she-ra’s gay relationships) without slapping a huge “THEY’RE LESBIANS, HAROLD” on it, so like.

yeah. it does get a label.

& i mean. she-ra is the big gay. it could have gone hard queer baiting, but even if that was a possibility, adora and catra are too hard-coded to Love Love each other. they have a best friends to rivals (to enemies) to lovers thing going on, it’s hard to miss. there is no doubt in my mind what catra means when she tells adora she loves her.

this is from before the confession and just. look at them. they are gay.

& meanwhile glimmer and bow have the soft affection, the feelings which could be read either way.

objectively the same hold, but he’s saving her life. catra leaps into adora’s arms, bow catches her. (after he just caught her before:

& it does not escape my attention that bow was the one who caught her from the void of space, not the stronger & arguably better adora/she-ra.

okay so bow & glimmer = adorable, and i’m v happy they got together. but it was an interesting application of tropes in that i don’t think you could tell this romance in a very different context. it just. it doesn’t work right. 

i think glimmer & bow end up a will they/won’t they couple in a different context. and that works, yeah, but that’s the point. gay tropes r just...different.

and it’s really hard to switch them because you kind of need a fantasy world where physical affection is much more common and we don’t have the baggage of gender in friendships.

just for fun, here’s one last couple. mermista and seahawk. i’m not gonna spend a long time on them i just wanted to say maybe i’m gay but it took me until season five to realize they’re together and i think they’ve been together the whole show. 

& i think that’s because she-ra does a really good job at depicting the post-homophobia, post-sexism universe. (sexism plays a big part in all this ik i didn’t talk about it but some other time)

so you get the opportunity to have these fantastic stories of relationships through new lenses. & i appreciate that. i appreciate getting to have a “he’s my friend” (i love him) “he’s mine” character moment with a new kind of angst. (glimmer: the gay, who loves her best friend but also loves her best friend, vs glimmer: the hypothetical straight, who loves her best friend, and her best friend loves her. the difference is subtle but it’s there.)

anyway yeah a lot of words. forehead kisses kill me because i have a weak, gay, heart. uhhhh media & tropes & telling explicitly gay romances requires us to be able to shake around what role friendship plays in the relationship arc, and something we’re not entirely up for yet, as a culture.

i leave u with this bc no one has made a gif of their actual kiss

[gray-warden]

can u explain how butches and femmes are counterparts and not opposites? or how femmes arent like lipstick lesbians? im not trying to be argumentative im just a very confused gay girl who Wants to Understand

First of all, sorry for taking like 50 years to answer your ask! I hope you still see the answer, though femmes and butches come from the same piece of history, where they were two sides of the same coin, a sort of “ying and yang”, if you’ll forgive the cliché. it’s more of an attraction to something that’s different but also the same in some ways, someone who might balance you out in a way in their differences but still gets where you’re coming from. it’s not uncommon for femmes to have previously thought they were butches because they felt a connection to the butch/femme history and dynamic but also felt alienated from womanhood due to their lesbianism. plus, two things being seen as opposites kinda often implies that there’s something in between those things, which isn’t the case here. butch/femme isn’t a “lesbian gender binary”, and the whole “futch scale” thing isn’t how it works, it was sort of a joke that got out of hand and led to many people misunderstanding identities that are important to many people. a stone butch isn’t just a super masculine and tough butch. “soft butch” meaning “butch who isn’t super muscular and who is sensitive” ignores that those things don’t make any butch less butch in the first place.femme is just an older identity and it just kinda goes hand-in-hand with butch because they have shared origins, and originally, in the past, the typical dynamic was a butch and a femme being together or seeking each other. it’s about complementing each other by having differences that work with each other, rather than differences that clash, and by having similarities that bring deeper understanding. of course stuff has changed, butches can date other butches ofc (there’s not really a different term for “gnc lesbian who exclusively or mostly seeks other gnc women”, and butchness, while it is a specific identity and a sort of “role”, is very associated with a specific kind of appearance. plus, many butches hear some dumbass shit about butchness even among wlw, so some of us might seek other butches so we finally feel understood. or just because they find other butches hot, which, in my opinion, is very understandable lol).also, a femme doesn’t necessarily have to always be super typically feminine, there’s an association with an older type of identity or role, so many femmes these days might incorporate a few things that could be considered gender nonconforming, like not shaving, not wearing makeup, having super short hair or buying some clothing articles from the men’s section (usually not all at once i guess? idk, i’m just giving a few examples). some might not use “she/her” and might not really see themselves as part of womanhood.or they might be very traditionally feminine, as many are.of course there are lesbians who might do any of those things but aren’t femmes, but that’d be because they just aren’t drawn to the identity, don’t long for a certain type of dynamic in their life, don’t feel connected to that part of history. most lesbians just aren’t butches or femmes. it’s not a bad thing, or a deep thing, most lesbians just aren’t! it’s a subculture, and that’s for a reason.but basically, butches and femmes just have more in common than we have differences. they’re complementary identities.originally, in specific contexts where those terms came up, butches and femmes were just seen as the possible different “types” of lesbians who seeked each other for relationships, sex, companionship, understanding, etc. it was originally a thing that came from lesbian bars, frequented by working-class women. so many butches and femmes worked in the same types of places (factories, often), so they still lived in the same type of context (though many femmes were sex workers, and that’s also an important thing to know, i don’t wanna seem like i’m ignoring it, but i’m not going deep into it bc in that case what they shared was still that they were also working class). of course many butches and femmes now aren’t working class, but those are the origins of those identities, and we should never forget who came before us.of course there are lots of differences between how lesbian working class bars were a few decades ago and how butch/femme is as a subculture now. the current subculture largely relies on writings from people who were always butches and always femmes back in the day, rather than those who sort of had to make themselves fit into one of those things because that was the expectation in those bars but otherwise didn’t feel connected to a certain identity or role outside of the specific context of the bars and relationships. so the modern butch/femme thing is, first of all, a subculture, because we don’t want people who don’t really connect to being a butch or a femme to feel like they have to fit in there, because if you don’t then you just don’t and there’s obviously nothing wrong with that, that’s why it’s a subculture, most lesbians just aren’t part of it, the same way most people aren’t parts of other subcultures. and since it’s so very based on the historic records left by people who were always butches and always femmes, regardless of where they were, who they were with, etc, it’s also about a constant identity now, rather than being someone who calls themselves a butch in a context where it’s about women seeking women but otherwise doesn’t really feel a connection to the identity in my experience, many femmes get annoyed at women who say they’re femme4femme bc they say that that’s why the term “lipstick lesbian” exists in the first place, as most women who call themselves “femme4femme” usually just mean “feminine woman seeking feminine woman”, using “femme” to just mean “feminine”. so that’s why there’s often an annoyance there.i’m not saying that a femme has to /exclusively/ be into gnc women to be a femme. just that being a femme and being a feminine lesbian don’t mean the same thing, and generally, femmes in the current butch/femme subculture often have at least a preference for butches, due to a desire for a specific kind of dynamic in relationships and anything surrounding that. there’s just a specific kind of historical connection and a sort of role connected to butchness and femmeness. it’s a subculture that’s more than just about what you look like and what the people you’re into look like. “butch” gets tied to a certain kind of appearance a lot more than femme does, as it’s a kind of appearance that stands out on its own, without the person saying anything about their identity, so many femmes rely on that connection to a specific part of history and certain desires and dynamics and roles a lot when it comes to their identity as femmes.lipstick lesbian is a term that sometimes just refers to very feminine lesbians, but very often specifically to feminine lesbians who exclusively or at least mostly seek other feminine lesbians. and to my knowledge there’s not any kind of deeper connection to any older identity or culture there, it’s like “masc4masc” or something like that, it’s just a description of your personal kind of aesthetic and the kind of aesthetic you find desirable (i’m not trying to imply there’s anything wrong with that, of course! just that it’s not the same as being a femme, but of course two things not being the same doesn’t automatically mean one is better than the other, which is something i want to make clear throughout this whole huge answer to your ask).idk, i’m no expert or anything, and i’m also just not great at explaining things, i tend to ramble a bit and i sometimes express myself in a way that was clear enough for other people, and sometimes i end up talking a lot. also, there just isn’t much butch/femme history where i’m from, at least not any /recorded/ history, there aren’t always words that describe the exact same things (of course there are people like me and people who are like many femmes, though, we’ve always existed, but there’s not really much of a butch/femme type of community thing because our history and words are different, and there’s generally fairly little LGBT or specifically wlw or lesbian history recorded), so this is about what i know of butch/femme culture in the US and online (since the latter relies on the former).there are a lot of people out there who talk abt butch/femme a lot, people who have read and watched and experienced more stuff connected to that, so you could ask people like that if you need more information (you can ask me, of course, i’m just saying they’ll know more), esp when it comes to femmes, since i don’t have their specific perspective on differences between femmes vs feminine lesbians who aren’t femmes, or on the femme4femme thing, which means i’m only talking based on my understanding of what they say, rather than from personal experience as a femme, just because i’m not one. (part of the reason why it took me a while was bc i asked some people i know, one butch and one femme, both have more knowledge about this stuff than me, esp the latter, to see if there were any inaccuracies they could see or something i didnt express well)

[star-anise]

do you have any sources on the claims you made? im always willing to change my stance if you have legitimate backing for it haha

So first, I’m sorry for blowing up at you the way that I did. I’m not proud that I reacted in such a kneejerk, aggressive fashion. Thank you for being open to hearing what I have to say. I’m sorry for mistaking you for a TERF, and I’m sorry my response has caused other people to direct their own hostility towards you.

So, here’s the thing. “You can’t call bi women femmes” is pretty intrinsically a radfem thing to say, and I am deeply opposed to letting radfems tell me what to do. I’m trying to write this during a weekend packed with childcare and work. I’ll try to hit all the high notes.

The one thing I am having trouble finding is the longass post I talked about in my reply, that was a history of butch/femme relationships in lesbian bars, which had frequent biphobic asides and talked about “the lesbophobic myth of the bi-rejecting lesbian”; the friend who reblogged it without reading it thoroughly has deleted it, and I can’t find it on any of the tags she remembers looking at around that time. If anyone can find it, I’ll put up a link.

As far as possible, I’m linking to really widely accessible sources, because you shouldn’t intrinsically trust a random post on Tumblr as secret privileged knowledge. People have talked about this at length in reputable publications that your local library either has, or can get through interlibrary loan; you can look up any of the people here, read their work, and decide for yourself. This is a narrative of perspectives, and while I obviously have a perspective, many people disagree with me. At the end of the day, the only reason I need for calling bi women femmes is that You Are Not The Boss Of Me. There is no centralized authority on LGBT+ word usage, nor do I think there should be. Hopefully this post will give you a better sense of what the arguments are, and how to evaluate peoples’ claims in the future.

I looked up “butch” and “femme” with my library’s subscription to the Oxford English Dictionary because that’s where you find the most evidence of etymology and early use, and found:

“Femme” is the French word for “woman”.  It’s been a loanword in English for about 200 years, and in the late 19th century in America it was just a slangy word for “women”, as in, “There were lots of femmes there for the boys to dance with”

“Butch” has been used in American English to mean a tough, masculine man since the late 19th century; in the 1930s and 1940s it came to apply to a short masculine haircut, and shortly thereafter, a woman who wore such a haircut. It’s still used as a nickname for masculine cis guys–my godfather’s name is Martin, but his family calls him Butch. By the 1960s in Britain, “butch” was slang for the penetrating partner of a pair of gay men.

Butch/femme as a dichotomy for women arose specifically in the American lesbian bar scene around, enh, about the 1940s, to enh, about the 1960s. Closet-keys has a pretty extensive butch/femme history reader. This scene was predominantly working-class women, and many spaces in it were predominantly for women of colour. This was a time when “lesbian” literally meant anyone who identified as a woman, and who was sexually or romantically interested in other women. A lot of the women in these spaces were closeted in the rest of their lives, and outside of their safe spaces, they had to dress normatively, were financially dependent on husbands, etc. Both modern lesbians, and modern bisexual women, can see themselves represented in this historical period.

These spaces cross-pollinated heavily with ball culture and drag culture, and were largely about working-class POC creating spaces where they could explore different gender expressions, gender as a construct and a performance, and engage in a variety of relationships. Butch/femme was a binary, but it worked as well as most binaries to do with sex and gender do, which is to say, it broke down a lot, despite the best efforts of people to enforce it. It became used by people of many different genders and orientations whose common denominator was the need for safety and discretion. “Butch” and “femme” were words with meanings, not owners.

Lesbianism as distinct from bisexuality comes from the second wave of feminism, which began in, enh, the 1960s, until about, enh, maybe the 1980s, maybe never by the way Tumblr is going. “Radical” feminism means not just that this is a new and more exciting form of feminism compared to the early 20th century suffrage movement; as one self-identified radfem professor of mine liked to tell us every single lecture, it shares an etymology with the word “root”, meaning that sex discrimination is at the root of all oppression.

Radical feminism blossomed among college-educated women, which also meant, predominantly white, middle- or upper-class women whose first sexual encounters with women happened at elite all-girls schools or universities. Most of these women broke open the field of “women’s studies” and the leading lights of radical feminism often achieved careers as prominent scholars and tenured professors.

Radical feminism established itself as counter to “The Patriarchy”, and one of the things many early radfems believed was, all men were the enemy. All men perpetuated patriarchy and were damaging to women. So the logical decision was for women to withdraw from men in all manner and circumstances–financially, legally, politically, socially, and sexually. “Political lesbianism” wasn’t united by its sexual desire for women; many of its members were asexual, or heterosexual women who decided to live celibate lives. This was because associating with men in any form was essentially aiding and abetting the enemy.

Look, I’ll just literally quote Wikipedia quoting an influential early lesbian separatist/radical feminist commune: “The Furies recommended that Lesbian Separatists relate “only (with) women who cut their ties to male privilege” and suggest that “as long as women still benefit from heterosexuality, receive its privileges and security, they will at some point have to betray their sisters, especially Lesbian sisters who do not receive those benefits”“

This cross-pollinated with the average experience of WLW undergraduates, who were attending school at a time when women weren’t expected to have academic careers; college for women was primarily seen as a place to meet eligible men to eventually marry. So there were definitely women who had relationships with other women, but then, partly due to the pressure of economic reality and heteronormativity, married men. This led to the phrase LUG, or “lesbian until graduation”, which is the kind of thing that still got flung at me in the 00s as an openly bisexual undergrad. Calling someone a LUG was basically an invitation to fight.

The assumption was that women who marry men when they’re 22, or women who don’t stay in the feminist academic sphere, end up betraying their ideals and failing to have solidarity with their sisters. Which seriously erases the many contributions of bi, het, and ace women to feminism and queer liberation. For one, I want to point to Brenda Howard, the bisexual woman who worked to turn Pride from the spontaneous riots in 1969 to the nationwide organized protests and parades that began in 1970 and continue to this day. She spent the majority of her life to a male partner, but that didn’t diminish her contribution to the LGBT+ community.

Lesbian separatists, and radical feminists, hated Butch/Femme terminology. They felt it was a replication of unnecessarily heteronormative ideals. Butch/femme existed in an LGBT+ context, where gays, lesbians, bisexuals, and transgender people understood themselves to have more in common with each other than with, say, cis feminists who just hated men more than they loved women. 

The other main stream of feminist thought at the time was Liberal Feminism, which was like, “What if we can change society without totally rejecting men?” and had prominent figures like Gloria Steinem, who ran Ms magazine. Even today, you’ll hear radfems railing against “libfems” and I’m like, my good women, liberal feminism got replaced thirty years ago. Please update your internal schema of “the enemy”

Lesbian separatism was… plagued by infighting. To maintain a “woman-only” space, they had to kick out trans women (thus, TERFs), women who slept with men (thus, biphobia), women who enjoyed kinky sex or pornography or engaged in sex work (thus, SWERFS) and they really struggled to raise their male children in a way that was… um… anti-oppressive. (I’m biased; I know people who were raised in lesbian separatist communes and did not have great childhoods.) At the same time, they had other members they very much wanted to keep, even though their behaviour deviated from the expected program, so you ended up with spectacles like Andrea Dworkin self-identifying as a lesbian despite being deeply in love with and married to a self-identified gay man for twenty years, despite beng famous for the theory that no woman could ever have consensual sex with a man, because all she could ever do was acquiesce to her own rape.

There’s a reason radical feminism stopped being a major part of the public discourse, and also a reason why it survives today: While its proponents became increasingly obsolete, they were respected scholars and tenured university professors. This meant people like Camille Paglia and Mary Daly, despite their transphobia and racism, were considered important people to read and guaranteed jobs educating young people who had probably just moved into a space where they could meet other LGBT people for the very first time. So a lot of modern LGBT people (including me) were educated by radical feminist professors or assigned radical feminist books to read in class.

The person I want to point to as a great exemplar is Alison Bechdel, a white woman who discovered she was a lesbian in college, was educated in the second-wave feminist tradition, but also identified as a butch and made art about the butch/femme dichotomy’s persistence and fluidity. You can see part of that tension in her comic; she knows the official lesbian establishment frowns on butch/femme divisions, but it’s relevant to her lived experience.

What actually replaced radical feminism was not liberal feminism, but intersectional feminism and the “Third Wave”. Black radical feminists, like Audre Lorde, bell hooks, and Kimberlé Williams Crenshaw, pointed out that many white radical feminists were ignoring race as a possible cause of oppression, and failing to notice how their experiences differed from Black womens’. Which led to a proliferation of feminists talking about other oppressions they faced: Disabled feminists, Latina feminists, queer feminists, working-class feminists. It became clear that even if you eliminated the gender binary from society, there was still a lot of bad shit that you had to unlearn–and also, a lot of oppression that still happened in lesbian separatist spaces.

I’ve talked before about how working in women-only second-wave spaces really destroyed my faith in them and reinforced my belief in intersectional feminism

Meanwhile, back in the broader queer community, “queer” stuck as a label because how people identified was really fluid. Part of it is that you learn by experience, and sometimes the only way to know if something works for you is to try it out, and part of it is that, as society changed, a lot more people became able to take on new identities without as much fear. So for example, you have people like Pat Califia, who identified as a lesbian in the 70s and 80s, found far more in common with gay leather daddies than sex-negative lesbians, and these days identifies as a bisexual trans man.

Another reason radical feminists hate the word “queer”, by the way, is queer theory, which wants to go beyond the concept of men oppressing women, or straights oppressing gays, but to question this entire system we’ve built, of sex, and gender, and orientation. It talks about “queering” things to mean “to deviate from heteronormativity” more than “to be homosexual”. A man who is married to a woman, who stays at home and raises their children while she works, is viewed as “queer” inasmuch as he deviates from heteronormativity, and is discriminated against for it.

So, I love queer theory, but I will agree that it can be infuriating to hear somebody say that as a single (cis het) man he is “queer” in the same way being a trans lesbian of colour is “queer”, and get very upset and precious about being told they’re not actually the same thing. I think that actually, “queer as a slur” originated as the kind of thing you want to scream when listening to too much academic bloviating, like, “This is a slur! Don’t reclaim it if it didn’t originally apply to you! It’s like poor white people trying to call themselves the n-word!” so you should make sure you are speaking about a group actually discriminated against before calling them “queer”. On the other hand, queer theory is where the theory of “toxic masculinity” came from and we realized that we don’t have to eliminate all men from the universe to reduce gender violence; if we actually pay attention to the pressures that make men so shitty, we can reduce or reverse-engineer them and encourage them to be better, less sexist, men.

But since radfems and queer theorists are basically mortal enemies in academia, radical feminists quite welcomed the “queer as a slur” phenomenon as a way to silence and exclude people they wanted silenced and excluded, because frankly until that came along they’ve been losing the culture wars.

This is kind of bad news for lesbians who just want to float off to a happy land of only loving women and not getting sexually harrassed by men. As it turns out, you can’t just turn on your lesbianism and opt out of living in society. Society will follow you wherever you go. If you want to end men saying gross things to lesbians, you can’t just defend lesbianism as meaning “don’t hit on me”; you have to end men saying gross things to all women, including bi and other queer women.  And if you do want a lesbian-only space, you either have to accept that you will have to exclude and discriminate against some people, including members of your community whose identities or partners change in the future, or accept that the cost of not being a TERF and a biphobe is putting up with people in your space whose desires don’t always resemble yours.

Good god, this got extensive and I’ve been writing for two hours.

So here’s the other thing.

My girlfriend is a femme bi woman. She’s married to a man.

She’s also married to two women.

And dating a man.

And dating me (a woman).

When you throw monogamy out the window, it becomes EVEN MORE obvious that “being married to a man” does not exclude a woman from participation in the queer community as a queer woman, a woman whose presentation is relevant in WLW contexts. Like, this woman is in more relationships with women at the moment than some lesbians on this site have been in for their entire lives.

You can start out with really clear-cut ideas about “THIS is what my life is gonna be like” but then your best friend’s sexual orientation changes, or your lover starts to transition, and things in real life are so much messier than they look when you’re planning your future. It’s easy to be cruel, exclusionary, or dismissive to people you don’t know; it’s a lot harder when it’s people you have real relationships with.

And my married-to-a-man girlfriend? Uses “butch” and “femme” for reasons very relevant to her queerness and often fairly unique to femme bi women, like, “I was out with my husband and looking pretty femme, so I guess they didn’t clock me as a queer” or “I was the least butch person there, so they didn’t expect me to be the only one who uses power tools.” Being a femme bi woman is a lot about invisibility, which is worth talking about as a queer experience instead of being assumed to exclude us from the queer community.

[sprinkledonion-blog]

Another real long “I don’t like Bumbleby” post (Part 1)

So this one was a long time coming. I kept postponing it, polishing it, making it look the nicest I could, but it’s finally here. And it’s quite long. Let’s just, uh, start.

The first thing I wanna say is, I watched RWBY without interacting with the FNDM, just at the start of this year. I didn’t know what Bumbleby was, nor its impact in the overall FNDM. I was blissfully unaware of what was going on, so I dived in with a clean, open mind.

First impressions and development (or the lack thereof)

I didn’t think about Bumbleby. For those who know me, I ship characters VERY easily and I don’t really care if it’s a gay, het, lesbian ship, I can and I WILL ship them. I shipped Ruby and Penny like crazy. Ruby and Emerald made my heart jump. Jaune and Ren looked insanely cute together, and Sun and Weiss had very nice potential. And in V2, in the Burning the Candle episode, when Yang had a heartfelt conversation with Blake, and hugged her, I was like “oh?”. It was the first time I had seen Yang this vulnerable, and while I really ignored her through the first volume, this scene made me realize she was more than it meets the eye. And she chose to be vulnerable… with Blake. Oh?

Then Blacksun happened. Oh.

I didn’t like Blacksun. I still don’t like it. It’s predictable and boring for my tastes. But it has a privilege Bumbleby doesn’t: development. 

I will never understand this choice. Barb said it was planned from the beginning. The question is, then: why didn’t y’all spend time developing Bumbleby? Bees will tell me it was developed, but I’ll suggest y’all to take off your rose-colored glasses and revise those interactions. I totally understand the warm, fuzzy feeling when your ship talk, even look at each other (my ships are 99% rareships so I take what I can get), but deep down you know reality isn’t like that. I’ve seen the 40-minute essay about Bumbleby; yes, you can attribute to every interaction a romantic feeling, but I can do the exact same with Jaune and Ren, and fans will roll their eyes at me and tell me it isn’t like that. The only remotely romantic interaction was the whole Burning the Candle episode. It was a nice episode. 

“But Onion”, y’all will say, “are you going to ignore V3 onwards? The plot completely ties Blake and Yang together”. Same as Blake and Sun. Yes, Yang lost an arm for Blake, and yes, she feels betrayed and everything, but… why should I think it’s romantic? Blacksun is being developed at the same time, following common romance tropes that apply to the rest of canon ships, so why should I think it’s any different? Yang could have lost an arm for Weiss and I have no doubt she’d have felt the same. (I also think Weiss would have called her and checked on her every day, until Yang even heard her in dreams.) 

That brings me to my second point. Let’s trust Barb, it was planned from the beginning. Then what was Blacksun supposed to be? “It makes the point that romantic relationships don’t always work and sometimes it’s better to stay as friends.” Valid point, but… Blake? Sun? Why did you keep at it? Blake, why did you kiss him on the cheek? That’s misleading, for the audience I mean (Sun already knows the script). When I friendzoned guys, and when the girls I know friendzoned guys, absolutely none of them kissed the dude on the cheek. The most they did was give a pat on the back or shoulder. Let me know if it’s an American thing to kiss guys you friendzone, because maybe it’s the cultural barrier that keeps me from understanding “yes, they’re friends and nothing more!”. 

And yes, I know Sun told Neptune it was never about that. What was it about then, Sun? Were you trying to get Weiss’ attention by making her jealous? Were you trying to get Blake to paid for the food? I don’t buy that Sun explicitly flirted with her just to be friends. Else I’m an alien and it’s my second day on Earth, or Sun tried to convince himself to feel less pain. Or who knows? Maybe he really was flirting with her to be friends. Maybe he flirted with Neptune too. Writers, give us proper answers. And no, FNDM, filling in the story holes with “show don’t tell, there’s a logical explanation for it” is still fanon and doesn’t count as canon. Show don’t tell is a rule, not an excuse.

Anyways, after the whole coming and going, Sun finally leaves the scene for Bumbleby to thrive on sudden romantic interactions, which are a little late at most. It’s confusing. Yang never felt jealous when Blake showed attraction to Sun. They didn’t choose to clearly spend time together, at least with the “we’re partners” excuse. I’ll delve into this point later, but for now: we had Blacksun, suddenly we have Bumbleby, and we’re supposed to have been cheering for them the whole time. Uhm, was this supposed to be a plot twist? 

Okay, I may be biased on this one, but listen to me. I don’t like this kind of plot twist. Oh, we have a heterosexual couple… OR SO YOU THOUGHT! THE TRUTH IS THAT THE LESBIANS ARE CANON! WE’VE TRICKED YOU, WHAT MADMEN WE ARE!

Get it? My problem isn’t that Blacksun isn’t canon. My problem is that the writers are using a wlw relationship as a tool, a surprise, manipulating and tricking the audience. It doesn’t feel genuine--it feels like they just wanted to cause controversy--or sell. At the end of the day, Bumbleby is way more popular than Blacksun, and a big part of the FNDM came for the bees. Don’t y’all ever wonder why voice actors don’t talk as much about other characters, or Ruby herself? The main main character? 

Let’s bee honest: at this point in time, the biggest thing keeping RWBY afloat is Bumbleby.

“And what’s the problem with all that?”, bees may ask. “What’s wrong with feeding us some good bees?” Ship whatever you want, y’all. But I don’t like getting ships shoved down my throat and treated as peak LGBT+ representation when it didn’t get the time and treatment it deserved. Not all that glitters is gold, guys. (Especially Yang.)

Racism

Oh boy.

Racism is quite the great deal in Remnant… at least that’s what the show tells us. It doesn’t show it. No, Velvet doesn’t need to get stones thrown at her to show us discrimination. But, you know… if there was discrimination, I don’t think she would be in Beacon in the first place. Or that Leonardo would be the headmaster of Haven… Adam Taurus, pack your things and go home; there’s no faunus discrimination worth the fight. (Wait! Don’t go yet, you still have work to do.)

What does racism has to do with Bumbleby?, you may ask. Well, it’s Blake’s main plot. I think it has a lot to do with Bumbleby… but uh, it seems I was wrong. Yang isn’t interested in it, so I guess it’s just Blake’s problem. Until uh, Adam makes a scene, but that doesn’t have much to do with the fact he’s a faunus. It’s still pretty distasteful of a human to kill a faunus, but I’ll tackle that point a bit later.

Blake’s faunity? is very important to her. If she’s an important person to Yang, why doesn’t Yang show interest in it? She didn’t even defend Velvet, even though she could have punched Cardin in the face. She sits around sighing “It must be hard to be a faunus” and annoys Blake with a lighter. This only shows me Yang doesn’t care about Blake’s identity, and not in a good way. 

I know, I know, I take the faunus issue to heart. It must be because I’m a person of color. I could talk hours and hours about the horrendous execution of faunus racism (reinforcing stereotypes, horrible analogies and really unfortunate implications), but I’ll limit myself to Blake for now.

Yang doesn’t care. She’s not one bit interested in reading faunus’ history, in asking Blake about her experiences, in thinking how she could help as a human. She’s like those people who say “I’m blind to race” as if it were a good thing. Yeah, you don’t discriminate, but you dismiss other people’s culture and background. It’s part of who we are. Some of us will take it better, some of us worse, but acknowledging Blake’s identity in this case could do wonders. That way Yang could show interest in her as a person, her motives to fight, her struggle. 

But she didn’t. In fact, she did quite the contrary.

Bonus: I’ve recently seen a… hysterical headcanon. As it turns out, some bees were excited at the idea of Blake getting branded and Yang going berserk, later saving all the faunus in the mine. It was supposedly justified by “faunus needed a reason to respect her” and of course, Bumbleby angst. Do I need to point out the White Savior trope and how blatantly racist and harmful it is? Do I really need to? Considering faunus are supposed to represent the civil rights movement? Especially knowing Adam’s previous treatment? If faunus were explicitly Black, this would be… well, this is a disaster, but it gets swept under the rug. As a woman of color, this headcanon just makes me want to cry.

I think I’ll have to divide it into two parts so it doesn’t get too heavy. Part 2 is here. 

[serenagaywaterford]

What is tender culture????

tender culture is all this cottagecore, domesticity, uwu crap that is particularly prevalent in lesbian/wlw circles. like i’m all for fluff and thinking positively but tender culture seems to reduce loving women to a set of stereotypical “feminine” soft and gentle traits. like here’s an example:

“we are in a toasty log cabin in the woods. it’s cold and we snuggle under this homemade quilt with our cat and quietly sip hot chocolate as the snowflakes gently fall against the reddening leaves outside. but we’re safe and warm and loved.”

it’s that sort of shit.

like i said, it’s not bad. it’s just that it’s EVERYWHERE. hell, i follow that lesbian domesticity blog myself tbh (altho i does grate on my nerves that it’s constantly about tender culture and never about sex. and really it is nothing like my relationship with my wife but hey. it’s about her and her wife, not universal experiences. her blog her rules). tender culture as a whole seems to idealise relationships (cos i’m sure it exists in bi and het circles too) as these sweet, cutesy, soft things that are always perfect and everyone is just gentle and calm and utterly loving all the time.

and there’s never any fucking. there’s never any indication that women are sexual beings and sex is an integral part of relationships. (don’t anybody fight me on this. it’s true and you know it.) there’s never any indication that people argue, or tease, or fight, or get turned on. hell, most of the time there’s never even any indication that people PLAY and joke even. it’s ALL like “uwu i barely touch your hand and feel the stars align and we are soft and perfect and fall asleep in your arms.” BARF.

i think, tbh, that’s the issue i have with it being SO prevalent in lesbian online culture. we’ve been told FOREVER that lesbian sex either doesn’t exist, isn’t real sex, is gross, doesn’t really count OR alternately is this fetishistic OTT porn thing for men to jerk off to. we’ve been taught to be ashamed and keep our SEXUALITY to ourselves. the tender culture thing makes being lesbian palatable to the masses because it’s so non-threatening.

and to separate it from lesbian culture specifically, we AS WOMEN have been taught since birth to shut up about sex. we’ve been shamed into silence about female masturbation and female arousal and female orgasm and female desire. like so many of us grow up without learning about our own bodies. a woman knowing her own body is a threat. a woman seeking her own pleasure is a threat. basically a woman talking about sex is a threat. 

and even besides sex, we’ve been socialised to be calm, gentle, nice, accommodating, nurturing, kind, and so so soft. we’re not allowed to be hungry, funny, angry, emotional, mean, have boundaries, be wild and dirty and feral. we’re not allowed to scream and fight unless we’re one of “those” type of women as if all women don’t want to just fucking scream sometimes. 

sometimes women just need to get themselves off too. i just find it very… dangerous to ONLY see that non-threatening tender side of things because it upholds patriarchal behavioural gender norms to such a crazy degree.

so all this “tender culture” crap that basically denies this side of female existence by its silence bothers me. which is why i like to reblog posts critical about tender culture sometimes, alongside tender culture posts which i do like also. we need reminders that there is NOTHING wrong with masturbation, sexual arousal, sexual pleasure, fucking (not just ~making love~), and being a woman while doing it. there’s nothing weird or wrong about being angry and upset and playful and horny and wild. i would just really like to see more content like that. 

there is an argument that women/lesbians have been so overly sexualised by men that it’s a direct response to that pure sexual objectification. like, hey, women have feelings and care, and especially lesbians are romantic and loving too. not just sex objects shoving dildos in each other while wearing high heels. i can see some validity in that reaction. but to me, there is just too much and it starts to seem like that ALL lesbians want is hand holding and a pretty garden and cats in some idyllic cottage somewhere. it seems to have flipped too far the other way into a cliched “perfect woman” under patriarchy non-threat stereotype.

i also recognise that the moment a woman starts talking about sex, especially lesbians, it easily gets co-opted and appropriated by perverts and fetishists and pornsick men (and women). it’s hard to just talk about our experiences without it being viewed a specific way by outsiders. it’s either hyper-sexualised or hypo-sexualised by someone else. there is always gonna be some sick fuck with his dick in his hand ready to go or some conservative prick screaming bloody murder about morals as soon as we try to discuss our own experiences. but i don’t think that means we should shut up about everything sexual or dirty or “nasty” about our reality as women out of fear of these scrotal cumsacks.

it’s all about balance, really.

and being willing to get up and yell: GET OUT. THIS ISN’T FOR YOU. when you see them infiltrate something for us. you see a man make a lewd comment, call him out. make him uncomfortable. take back what we have from them.

like i said, there’s nothing inherently wrong with tender culture. i just think it needs to be balanced with actual reality. there’s nothing wrong with romantic daydreams and just wanting someone to love you gently, and to cherish you and your relationship. and especially when the world is so insane, it’s fine to want something calm and gentle. but real relationships are not JUST that one thing. and i think tender culture gives a false sense of reality as to what normal adult relationships are like. i’ve been told here on my blog that even talking about sex with my wife is TMI (it’s not), talking about masturbation is TMI (it’s not), and even worse that me arguing with my wife and getting pissed off at her is something to be so terrified of (it’s not) that i should “get somewhere safe”. no. i should work it out and communicate. not run away every time things aren’t fluffy and calm and tender. that’s so unhealthy. and that’s what i feel being inundated with tender culture does. it gives a warped idea about what a healthy relationship is.

like no. tender culture denies this not so nice reality of human relationships, especially when you live together. like yes, of course we have the beautiful, romantic, tender side too. but people argue. people can fucking hate each other sometimes when they’re stressed out or frustrated and it comes out in arguments. and there is a scale. there’s a point when it becomes unhealthy and toxic but i think it’s equally unhealthy to never argue and force yourself to push any feelings you have down in order to maintain some idealized genteel version of a relationship that you’ve been bombarded with online as what you SHOULD have. 

and this goes for joking around and playfulness too. sometimes when i joke with my wife and call her a bitch or she says “rude” things to me, people are like “OH MY GOD!” but… i mean, that’s just us? it’s joking. (we sometimes do it purposely in front of people to laugh at their reactions cos we are both assholes.) we play with each other a lot. she’s an incessant tease. she calls me an idiot. i literally tell her i’m gonna punch her in the face when she’s teasing me. do i mean it? of course not. we roughhouse and wrestle and playfight even (not sexually jsyk. just simply playing which is SO LOST in this society. we don’t do any bdsm bullshit). it’s a type of physical expression that doesn’t hurt anybody and requires a certain level of connection and trust too. the fact i can tackle her onto the sofa and she squeals and grapples me back is HEALTHY. adults can play too. it’s like that post i made a while back when i talked about how my wife shoved her fingers in me when i was bending over unaware and laughed about it ...and was told it was TMI. like um ...we are physically intimate and playful and it’s not a BAD THING. and i’ll share it cos honestly? if you don’t have that level of intimacy and trust and fun, i personally think there may be something wrong. (if it crosses personal boundaries for you, that’s something else. but she knows it doesn’t bother me.) on my blog i will talk about my relationship with my wife in ALL its glory, bad, good, fun, horny, loving cos it is a fully-rounded relationship and adults don’t experience just one thing.

i fucking love sex with women and i was denied it for so long i’m not about to shut up about it now. i love fucking and the female body in all its wet, messy, soft, beautiful glory. i love being in love finally and properly and i won’t shut up about that either. i won’t be shamed to be quiet about my body or my sex life or my relationship that ISN’T perfect. (like i’m literally going to kill her if says to me one more time that 80s music is the best music lmao like she’s gonna kill me if i leave one more dirty bowl beside the sofa for the stupid idiot dogs to get at). 

to some people, i guess reality doesn’t matter. they only want the daydreams and fantasies, or they only live in a soft cloud world. that’s up to them. maybe that’s what they need in their lives. and that is fine. for a while but it isn’t real life and it’s not what you should strive for. it SHOULD be part of what you strive for however. you should have someone who cherishes you and cares and loves and respects.

i just don’t think tender culture should be as overwhelming as it is. it sets standards that i don’t think are realistic. let’s talk about sex or arguing or any range of human relationship issues too. don’t get rid of tender culture, at all. keep it. cherish it. let it give you hope and positivity and ease loneliness and isolation. healthy, loving, respectful fantasies are important af. but don’t act like a puritanical dunce when a woman talks about sex or hunger or anger as well.

i mean i’m not asking for sexually explicit content and i’d never go into intense detail about my own life (that’s what fanfic is for lmao) but a little recognition that women aren’t just domestic soft cliches. that’s all.

i don’t see any of that in tender culture. it’s all soft uwu feathery kisses and soothing fingers brushing along a forearm. blah… sometimes you need to get fucked. sometimes you need to laugh. sometimes even you need to argue.

wow ok

sorry anon

you asked me what tender culture was and i went off on a rant about why i hate it lol. i’m sorry. you asked such a simple question and i word vommed all over it.

[thedeadflag]

so this is something I've been mulling over for a while now - do you reckon it'd be possible to make a version of a/b/o that isn't fundamentally transphobic, or would it reach the point of "this is so different that you might as well not call it a/b/o" before that? off the top of my head you'd have to take out all elements of g!p, mpreg, and biological essentialism, and it'd probably be possible to write a version of a/b/o with that framework, but I don't know if I'm missing anything.

a/b/o is a reactionary trope that relies on cissexism-derived biological essentialism to function. Like, that’s the engine that powers the bdsm/power dynamics, cisheteronormative breeding/family building, “dub/non-con”, etc. elements that draw people to it, and led people to create it in the first place. 

Like, my best attempt at describing a non-transphobic, non-shitty typical a/b/o adjacent fic would include:

Werewolves (let’s face it, werewolves can be really cool if written well, and there’s a lot of really good ways to write them, a lot of ways to subvert tired subtropes within the trope)

Found Family-focused family/pack building (because wolves often adopt wolves from other packs into their own, blood lineage isn’t really a thing; much like vampires being created, newly turned werewolves of any age can be considered their sire’s child; if it needs to have a pregnancy arc between two men or two women, there’s IVF/IUI, or magically/spiritually-induced pregnancies, and of course writing a fully fledged complex trans character with their own non-pregnancy arc and virtues/flaws/goals/etc. and getting relevant trans beta writers who aren't your friends to keep it on track if you’re a cis writer)

A flexible, non-binary gendered society (rather than the rigidly structured biology-is-destiny a/b/o society) that’s trans inclusive either explicitly, or implicitly if it’s a new social universe with different rules. 

If mating seasons have to exist, they’re cultural more than biological, and no biological processes that could impede or trouble a person’s ability to properly consent. 

No inherent, glorified or reified power dynamics, certainly none rooted in or fostered through biology. 

That doesn’t seem very much at all like a/b/o to me. It’s a werewolf AU, which is the reason why a/b/o was created in the first place. It wasn’t enough. It needed something more than just a supernatural bent

I’ll continue on below for a bit on some simplified functions of a/b/o, but it’s mostly just some ramblings.

-

Like, to quote the originators of the genre/trope:

I'd like to see Alpha male Jared, and Bitch male Jensen. Jensen is a snotty prude (think Lady from lady and the tramp) he may be a bitch male but he's not just going to let anybody take a go at his sweet little ass...until he meets Jared...then prudey little Jensen turns cock slut for Jared. Bonus points for J2 being OTP, Jensen was a virgin before Jared, and now that they met each other, it's for life.

...

There are three types of men, alpha males, beta males, and omega males. Alpha males are like any ordinary guy with the exception of their cocks, they work just like canines (the knot, tons of cum, strong breeders, etc) The beta male, is an ordinary guy without the special cock. Omega males are capable of child bearing and often called bitch males.

Like, I want you to look at that real close and see what’s going on in there.

This was created to be a trope where there’s a world where women, as we explicitly know them, don’t exist, but where a subgroup of men take up the functional role of the woman in the heteronormative social structure of the world. It’s also not surprising that (assumedly cis) women created and initiated the spread of this trope.

Look at the language used. This is heavily, explicitly gendered for a reason. If you’ve read much of anything about how the male gaze impacts female sexuality, you’ll know a common response is for women to position themselves out of the proverbial frame entirely, so that no part of them can explicitly exist as an object, where they can take on the role of a subject. There’s no women whose experiences will directly link to her own and her own perceptions, comfort/discomfort/etc.

However, many of these women also have been heavily affected by the male gaze and heteronormativity, and that combined with not knowing what a real gay male relationship is like, what it looks like, what experiences might be unique to it...they fill in the blanks with their own conditioning. 

And maybe seeing a lot of that toxic masculinity in media content was unsettling because of how women get treated in that content, and how they in turn might feel in those shoes. But if a MAN, even if it’s a heavily female-coded man, were to undergo that...well, it’d be easier to appreciate those tropes and dynamics they’ve been force-fed to believe were arousing, hot, desirable. Especially if they can have two hot men in it. They can enjoy that self-created taboo, bypass their own discomfort and insecurity, and project it onto a type of person different enough to suspend their disbelief and maintain that difference, even if they’re pumping that guy full of all the typical misogynistic tropes and experiences they’re not comfortable having directed towards them and other women.

In short, it’s a way to get off on heteronormative norms/tropes, using another as a vehicle in order to keep up their cognitive dissonance.

Of course, this eventually spilled out into the Het fandom (makes perfect sense, since many of the a/b/o originators and proponents were het women), and then worked its way into Femslash fandom by piggybacking on g!p in order to meet the necessary criteria for PiV sex. 

Just, in this case, you necessarily shift some of the puzzle pieces around. Trans women take the place of the “alpha”, acting as an acceptable vehicle for a toxic masculine cis man, since lesbians aren’t into men. Even if the trans woman is generally written, in nearly every way aside from part of her body, as a toxic cis man. The original a/b/o’s “Bitch Male”/Omega Male is swapped out for the  Omega Female, usually a spunkier, more in your face version outside of romantic/sexual contexts in the media content, but let’s be real here, she’s still by and large submissive when it comes down to it. 

In a world where more wlw grew up feeling predatory for their attraction to other women, for feeling sinful, for being rejected from female intimacy het women enjoyed with each other after coming out, etc., it’s pretty common for a lot of lesbians to lack initiative, not be able to read or communicate romantic/sexual cues between each other...to essentially be “useless lesbians’ as the joke goes,and to feel isolated and undesirable. 

So writing a F/F fic where some hot woman modeled in the image of some hot cis woman pursues you? Takes the initiative sexually/romantically? Doesn’t beat around the bush, but is blatant? Who can’t control her lust around you? Who can give you the perfect nuclear family you’ve been conditioned to want in order to feel value in our heteronormative world, but were told you weren’t worthy of or could never feasibly attain? Who gives you a sexual encounter you have some education in and some emotional stake in due to common conditioning of PiV sex > all else? Who can give you plausible deniability for a number of contexts due to a lack of ability to explicitly consent? etc. etc.

Like, yeah, that’s going to feel comfortable for a lot out there. That’s going to seem pretty hot/arousing. It’s a way to get off on the norms and expectations thrown on women in society, but in a way that lets them distance themselves ever so slightly from men by shifting it from text to subtext, explicit to implicit.

Don’t just take my word for it, though. Here’s a few snippets from one of the most popular g!p/omegaverse femslash writers (if not the most popular) that help illustrate how/why this trope has found an audience

Why Do I Write G!P?The elephant in the room. It arouses me, but it’s also a form of self-comfort. I grew up in a very fundamentalist home. Women being with women was at first unspoken, and then derided, both by my church and at home. I felt insanely guilty for my attractions, so I developed ‘cheat codes’ to deal with it.

It was okay if the woman I had sex with in my dreams had a penis, for example. It was okay if she forced me to have sex with her. It was okay if we basically simulated heterosexual sex.

Because of my childhood (which included conversion therapy), I found myself falling into heterosexual roleplay patterns, at least sexually. It was a lingering thing from my childhood.

It’s still there, and I know I’ll never be rid of it.

...

I associate penetration with power. You know, being steeped in sexism from an early age turned some problematic thoughts into kinky lemonade. And since I’m a femme sub, taking power away from the top by ‘penetrating’ them can ruin the mood for me. I mean, I can write power bottom scenes with the best of them, and I enjoy them, but… *shrug* if I’m going to write omegaverse or g!p, someone’s getting fucked, and it’s not the top.

There are rules to a/b/o. There are specific reasons it’s sought out, read, and created, and that’s why it’s hard to imagine a version of it without those harmful elements, because the trope requires them for the audience to be satisfied.

It’s why all gay male a/b/o fits a pretty specific pattern. it’s why femslash a/b/o fits a very specific pattern. There’s nearly no deviation as a rule, because there are so many parts that have to be in play and functioning in a specific way in order to get the desired result. 

I could go on for hours about this, and the above is all a pretty damn simplified take of what’s going on in a/b/o for it to exist in the way it does and meet the needs of the audience, and I’ve already written a lot about this in the past, so I’ll try to cut it short here.

[starryrogue]

Hey. Below the cut is a LONG (2 page google docs) rant on being a gay sff book fan and the intersection of being a gay man in m/m spaces and book stuff. Just me ranting into the internet void. probs gonna delete this later so dont reblog/ or @ me or w/e

Before I get started, a disclaimer. This is a series of observations and rants based on my lived experience as a gay man in book and fan spaces. This isn't a formal critique or callout or call for action. Just an expression of confusion, frustration and desire. This isn’t me trying to dictate who can read and write and express m/m fiction. This isn't me saying “How dare women find enjoyment in things” since shaming women for “liking thing” is a long and complicated history. None of this has been checked for numbers and stats. There are a lot of generalizations below. There are probably more lgbt people engaging than I perceive. THERE IS A LOT OF GENERALIZING. This isnt an argument or formal essay.   I emphasize, this is me, a gay man, ranting and reflecting on my experience. Now that we have that out of the way

On a fundamental level, M/M book spaces are predominantly women filled. Starting at the top of the process, authors (check goodreads), Publishing (my industry and the results of a recent survey showing employment stats in publishing), Readers and engagement (harder to say stat wise but checking goodreads comments), and Fandom (more just a lived experience) are mostly women . So as a Gay Dude its confusing. On one hand, I feel kind of if I'm entering a space not meant for me, a man entering a women’s. But on the other hand my identity is the subject of so much work, both properly published and fanwork. Is this a space I can enter? 

Why is this the case? Why are women writing about this? Why is it finding an audience with other women? Is it a result of all of the above aspects just being woman heavy and it's a statistical result that most genre fiction being written/read by women? Fandom, shipping and M/M zines and fic are historically not led by men? Why? At the inception of fan culture, were there gay men engaging in shipping and using that as an avenue to explore male sexuality? Why have I only heard of fandom moms and not dads? 

Please read none of these as acuistory. I am generally inquisitive and would like an answer with historical context and data. Again, it's hard finding a balance between being a man commenting/genrailizing on a genre/hobby predominaltey for women and also being gay and wanting to engage in M/M content since again, its part of my identity being reprisented and commented on. Obviously not all the people i'm generalizing are straight, or cis. There are probably a lot of wlw, trans and nb people in these circles but I can't imagine it's the majority.I’m worried this might come off as misogynistic?

But then comes the real life scenario where I go to Scifi/fantasy book events that feature mlm leads and relationships and at a glance) I’m like one of 3 guys in a room of straight women? (again, generalizing) and I think, “why are y’all here? I'm here b/c I’m gay, and this book is gay? What are you getting out of this relationship? Where are my Gay SFF bros?”

A lot of YA SFF M/M content seems to be coming from author moving out of fan spaces, using fic as a way to practice their craft. Is this an equivalent of stright bro enjoying lesbian porn? Maybe not in YA SFF but BL/Yaoi has alway been pretty for women, by women? What about all the Mass Market romance? Straight up romance and smut between guys? Is it enjoyable b/c its two dudes making out and the author and audience are attracted to men so why not make it two men? Is it the “cultural taboo” around gayness that makes it hot? In all fairness I’ve only read 2 or 3 Mass Market/Ebook gay romances and they were Okay (like 7/10ish?) but that's not a good sample size. Again, why are women/ straight or otherwise getting to depict and dominate a market about gay men? I really suspect that women who are into men drastically out number MLM and also women being into men has been less stigmatized (Generally) than men depicting gay romance and sex. 

I wrote a post about being a gay man and liking love between men for a masculine. A kind or romance and intimacy seeped in masculinity kind of  thing and a lot the likes I got (or could identify) were women. As a gay dude i want to intereact with other MLM about M/M media since like this is suppsoed to be depiciting our kind of sex and romance but it hard to find any? (I'm not looking craaaazy hard but it's frustrating that its not a default) but where are the mlm talking about gay relationships on tumblr and goodreads?

I’m not trying to dictate who can write and read and publish this stuff. It's just isolating. There are a couple things I could go on about like depictions of mlm in shipping culture or like why all the top Tapas comics are BL but I think that's a separate issue. 

And now for some content rant 

As far as canon m/m content in books, up until recently it came in 3 flavors. Literary Tragedy, YA coming out Angst, and Mass Market Romance. Comics are a little better but not by much. Growing up I had like Magnus/Alec in that C.Claire series and Wallace Wells from Scott Pilgram and I think that was it. There has been a recent move in Sci-fi Fantasy (SFF) to be more diverse but generally its a lot of YA with a little less coming out angst. All my faves are still genreally written by women but I think the queer women and NB authors do it best IMO. 

I love SFF, but also I’m an adult so I am aging out of YA. Also YA coming out stuff especially contemporary is an easy way to get me anxious AF. Long story short, being a gay teen is tough and Id preferer not to relive coming out. I wish I had things like Carry On and How to repair a Mechanical Heart as a teen, but alas, I did not. Not that these books have no value, just there is still a gap in the market fot gay adult genre fiction(also why are straight women depicting coming out stories? Altruism?)

Give me that adult genre fiction with a gay romance b-plot please. (shout out to TOR for being market leaders but i need to do a deeper dive into indie presses). Shout out to things like Witchmark and Amberlough and The Last Sun. All great SFF stories in other worlds and full of magic and plot but also, dudes kissing. The one thing is gay authors have a tendecy to make thier books have darker topics like abuse, sexual assult/rape, homophonia, hard core drugs and violence, which i’m not going to deny. Let authors navigate the waers of gay culture in thier art. But I just want to read things like Juno Steel, queer AF but none of the homophbia and trauma attached. These asks are purely self interested, but I know there is a market for it.

(Also, there is this weird trend of Homophobia-Lite ™ where we arnt going to have the characters be bullied or outed or beaten/disowned but they need to “grow up” and get wives and families. Which on one hand is not great but on the other hand I like the way it reflects the lived experience of being ashmaed of your secuality but without the harsher traumas of the world. Its like me being gay in NYC in an artsy inudsrty. No one realy cares I’m gay and out but there are still little things that give me pause and some shame b/c interlized homophbia is a think. I think the SFF book makes it the best of both worlds of exploring homophobia without the darker themes. Ok end sidebar)

I have more thoughts on podcast content and fan spaces/shipping culture but this rant is already long. So I’ll leave it here. 

Probs gonna delete this after a day or 2. This was mostly an exercise for screaming into the void at some gay nerd frustrations. This rant is not without flaws or critique. But again, just a rant. A gay dudes nerdy rant about fantasy books. 

[stonefemblues]

Could a non butch or femme lesbian call themself stone or should we stick to saying “top?” I know it’s not exactly the same thing, but I wouldn’t want to do something to offend or hurt stone butches and femmes

idk tbh. i’m not like the authority on these terms, i don’t own them or dictate how they are used. its an old term that developed during a time when wlw community was dominated by butch/femme culture, and so at that time it was very closely tied to butch and femme identity. i know for me personally, my stone identity is a part of my femme identity and vice versa, they are very closely connected. i’m interested primarily in stone butches specifically, and i can only really relate to other stone femmes (like, i wouldn’t exactly relate to the experiences/feelings of a stone butch bottom either). when i am seeking community with other ppl identifying as stone, i am looking for a butch/femme community. i don’t know if i would call myself stone if i wasn’t femme and if i didn’t feel a connection to butch/femme culture, i think i would just call myself a bottom. to me, its not exactly just about what kind of sex i like, but also about like… the specific dynamic between a stone butch and a stone femme. the dysphoria and trauma that influence my stone identity is directly related to my femme identity, and the stone butches i’ve talked to seem to feel similarly about their stone dysphoria/trauma being related to their butch identity. but idk if all others that identify as stone feel the same way. some stone butches or femmes may not care if non-butches/femmes use it, some may care very much. but i’m not gonna go off about it being “appropriated” if its used by a non-butch/femme lesbian

butch/femme is no longer the dominant form of wlw culture, and the terms butch and femme and stone (and many other terms used by lgbt ppl) have evolved since their origin as our community evolves. i don’t think if you necessarily always have to do things exactly like they were done in the past, although i do think it is important to respect your history, and if you are using historical terms then at least try to stay true to the spirit of its tradition. but terms like these are determined by the community that uses them, and we give them their meaning. stone has already been adapted and changed by butches and femmes that reverse them (i.e. stone femme tops). originally “stone femme” as the counterpart to stone butch wasn’t even the term used, it was more often called “high femme”. i will say though that stone is very specifically about sexual relationships between women, and doesn’t make sense when used in reference to a sexual relationship with men, which is why its primarily referred to as a lesbian identity.

if someone calls themselves stone but not butch or femme, they would have to specify stone top or stone bottom because otherwise you wouldn’t know which meaning they meant

[takaraphoenix]

Odd question but what do you think of the “fujoshi” community? Harmless fun or harmful fetishization?

Oh, oh I’m getting a headache just reading that question…

No, it is not fetisihzation that is utter bullshit. No it is not harmful, that is even more bullshit.

The people accusing fujoshi of fetishization do the exact same thing. They write the exact same stories and draw the exact same fanarts about the exact same gays. But because the creators in one case are females, they are the devil and they are fetishizing.

By every definition of the word, I am a fujoshi too - a female fan of mlm ships. Yaoi or shounen-ai, if you wish to continue using Japanese terms.

What fujoshi discourse boils down to is a group of people being misogynistic crybabies and not allowing females to have genuine interests.

The term “CIShet woman” is thrown around like a slur in this discourse - disregarding that not all fujoshi are CIS or het. I, for my part, am a lesbian. It’s literally only about those people’s hatred for women, really.

Because the exact same content is totally fine if it is made by a gay man.

They don’t even realize how ridiculous that is.

If we would ever only get representation if it gets written by a person from the group in question, we would literally barely get anything.

Most gay stories were written by straight men and women. Most stories involving characters of color used to be written by white writers. Someone has to pave the way - and it is the group that is most “accepted” to do the job. In the case of writing for Hollywood, those would be the white men. Does that mean we have no right to see movies about women or characters of color or non-straights? No, no it does not.

As a lesbian, I can still enjoy Willow and Tara as a lesbian couple on Buffy even though they were written by a CIShet man. I still get to enjoy Elena’s coming out story on One Day at a Time even though the show was not written by a lesbian.

So if you, as a gay man, can not accept seeing a mlm couple written by a woman, then the problem is not the woman who invests her time into writing this, it is with you.

Especially since we are talking fandom here.

We’re not even talking Hollywood. We’re talking about authors on AO3 and fanarts on DeviantArt and on here. We’re talking about fans, people who love something and dedicate their own time into creating something for free, something that you and everybody else gets to enjoy without getting any form of payment for it.

So instead of being grateful for the content, those people insult, belittle, bully and even threaten the creators.

THAT IS WHAT IS HARMFUL.

A woman creating art or stories is and can by definition not be harmful, because it is fiction about fictional characters and it is on the internet where you can just avoid it if you do not agree with it.

But those people who made this into a “discourse”, they are the ones being harmful because they mistreat people who do something they enjoy.

People crying that “Those women enjoying what I am enjoying and what is clearly aimed only at me because it represents me, they are ruining the thing for me!!!” are the exact same type of whiny babies as the men who started crying this exact same sentence when women started showing interest in nerd culture - you all do remember that, right? The uproar against female fans in the MCU and DC and Star Wars and Star Trek culture because how dare women show any interest in these things that “belong” to men. All this shit about “fake nerd girls” that female fans of those shows and movies have to put up with, just for being female and interested in this thing.

Women aren’t allowed to have interests.

That is literally what this boils down to.

95% of canonically gay anime and manga were written by fujoshi - most of the things those antis consume was created by fujoshi.

The most ridiculous thing I ever saw on the topic was an anti making a post that fujoshi aren’t allowed to go and see Love, Simon because it is not meant for them, it is meant for gays.

It is not.

I, as a lesbian, wish to see this movie about a gay teen romance, because heaven knows I won’t get my lesbian teen romance any time soon on this big scale.

And the wildest part? Love, Simon was literally written by a fujoshi. By the very thing they hate - the CIShet white woman. The very kind of person they want to forbid from seeing this movie. That is the author of the book.

It’s a ridiculous double-standard and it baffles me that so many people on this hellsite don’t seem to grasp that.

Representation only matters if it is written by the minority represented and no one else aside from said minority is allowed to enjoy this.

That is literally like saying white people and non-black POC aren’t allowed to watch Black Planther or make fan content to it because it solemnly belongs to black people? Aren’t allowed to see Coco because it is clearly only aimed at Latinx people…? Oh yes, it is very clearly created for this group of people and from everything I’ve seen on this site, they’re the ones who get the most enjoyment out of it and out of the representation it brought with it - but that… that doesn’t mean that no one else is allowed to enjoy this.

I saw Coco five times by now and I’m white as fuck and I highly doubt that Latinx people in the fandom will give me shit for writing fanfiction for it, or accuse me of “fetishizing” their culture just because I’d write fanfiction for this movie. Which I am, literally working on a fic for that, hence the example.

Just because something is aimed at a certain group does not mean only they can enjoy it.

It’s a ridiculous concept of double standard that is being used in the fujoshi discourse.

I’m a woman, but I’m still allowed to consume media aimed at men - holy shit, aren’t we literally trying to break gender norms these days, like, seriously?

I’m a lesbian, but I’m still allowed to consume media featuring straights and gays and bisexuals and everything else under the rainbow. It’s not like I am only allowed to watch lesbian shows… because then I would literally have nothing to watch.

I’m white, but I’m still allowed to consume media featuring and focusing on characters of color. Because holy shit, I also don’t want the all-white casts anymore, it’s intensely stale and boring and outdated?? We are literally glad that we finally broke this kind of writing when it comes to representation in this aspect, so how could you want to revert back in the case of representing sexualities…?

If everyone is only allowed to consume media that focuses on representation of themselves, then you are really living in the stone-ages. They do know that this led to Hollywood and TV shows being predominantly white and male, right?

Fujoshi are female fans creating content for other fans.

Fujoshi discourse is overgrown babies crying about women having interests, using bogus claims like “Stop fetishizing ME!!!”.

No one is fetishizing you, unless you are a male celebrity and reading RPF about yourself. Those are literally the only people who can cry out about personally being fetishized. Celebrities who are being directly lusted after and have smut written about them.

Someone writing about something that includes part of your identity does not and will never personally fetishize you.

Hentai anime about big boobed girls? Does not personally fetishize me just because I’m a busty girl. It’s gross as fuck and I don’t like it, but I can just avoid it and I don’t feel personally victimized by its existence.

That is fetishization though. Women with waists that should break under the laws of physique and boobs trice the size of their heads. That is fetishizing women.

If fujoshi would be fetishizing gays, then they would be with such emphasis of their glorious cocks and mighty balls or some shit.

Essentially 50% of the things fujoshi create are soft. Fanfiction, fanart, doujinshi - fluff, about cuddling, two characters holding each other, that 50k slow-burn coffee shop AU you read last month.

Writing about a healthy, slow relationship is not and never will be “fetishization” - and it sure as heck will never be fetishization of you personally, because it isn’t about you.

Now to get back to a point I mentioned earlier.

Not every fujoshi is CIShet. For me, personally, writing about mlm relationships and reading about them was dealing with my own homosexuality - because we don’t get female gay love.

I could walk into any bookstore and thanks to Japanese fujoshi authors, I could just buy a manga about two teenage boys, discovering their sexuality and dealing with it. No sex involved. Not a single manga I own written by a fujoshi is even yaoi. Sex doesn’t have to be in it. Like I said, most content is impossibly soft and fluffy in nature.

And it helped me come to terms with my own sexuality, with the fact that it is possible to not be straight.

It’s harder to write about wlw ships than it is to write about mlm ships by sheer math alone.

Look, say, at the Avengers - you had one female character and five male characters in that lead team. There wasn’t even an option to write about a wlw ship, while you have ten possible mlm ships. So, what are you supposed to write about as a woman? Natasha masturbating for 20k words, or what? Because I, as a woman, am not allowed to write about men…?

Look at the Voltron fandom, where you have five male characters and two female… but oh my, one of the females is literally 15 while the other is an ancient alien; not the kind of ship I sail, so again no wlw ship to write about, but just as many mlm options as in the above mentioned.

And that is a pattern.

Franchises - anime, manga, cartoon, TV shows, movies, books - are dominated by male characters. Most lead characters are male. They are more fleshed out, better developed than the rare female characters.

Even nowadays, the male characters are still mostly more dynamic and more interesting than the females, because the females are either the Mother Character, the mere bland Love Interest who doesn’t get developed beyond being a love interest to the male lead, or the Badass Female whose only real trade is that she can kick ass, but real personality mostly still comes short.

So yeah, it’s virtually not a surprise that fanfiction authors - male and female alike - mostly latch onto mlm ships and write and draw about them, because there are statistically speaking more male characters in fandom and more mlm options than wlw options.

And if you forbid women from being interested in male characters and their relationships, if you forbid women from participating in fandom, if you forbid women from creating for the things they love…

There would be no fandoms.

Literally.

Fanfiction started because women wanted to see Spock and Kirk fuck. While there are many male creators by now, fandom has always been rather dominated by women, who created and set the path.

So we are good enough to put you where you are now, but now we are forbidden from participating in the very thing we created? Literally, the thing we created - because most of your boyslove manga and anime were created by fujoshi. So you are allowed to consume that but you do not allow the people who are like the author to also enjoy it…? Really?

And then there is also still that accusation that, somehow, “we” evil CIShet women get off to fetishizing “you” poor gay men.

I’m ace. I don’t get off to the smut I write. I write the sex scenes because they are part of the relationship, just as I write the wooing and getting together. It ain’t about “getting off”. It’s about the enjoyment of writing.

And while I, personally, don’t identify as a fujoshi because I don’t like the term, others do - and others have a right to. Just like I would never call myself a stan of anything, because I don’t like the term - but by definition I most likely do stan a lot of characters and shows and things.

I think a big problem is that fujoshi, translated, means “rotten woman” and somehow the butthurt crybabies who feel personally victimized by fujoshi see that as meaning something bad.

Yes, the words rotten woman do not exactly scream “Oh, this is a nice thing!”, but those people don’t even bother looking up the meaning - because words have meanings, connotations attached to them. And meanings change. Just because something seems to “say” one thing if you do a literal translation of it does not necessarily mean that the word also means the same thing that said literal translation offers. That is not how language works.

And at its very core, all that fujoshi means is “female fan of mlm”. The term itself was coined during times where liking gays and being gay was even more scandalous than today. You were rotten if you liked gays, a disgusting, rotten person - and yet still those women weren’t stopped. They created.

They created things that future generations got to enjoy. They created a pathway.

And if people today want to call themselves fujoshi because they identify with the term, then absolutely no one has a right to judge them, has the right to assign a different meaning to that term.

How do we, today in this day and age where we are all about claiming our own identity, have people out there who think they can dictate the identity and interests of others?

How is the gay community so rotten that there are people not allowing women to have an interest and condemning them for the label they chose for themselves…?

That is the disgusting and harmful part of the fujoshi discourse, really.

[edsbev]

(1/6) Hi there! I understand you're going through a bit of a rough time so you can totally feel free to ignore this but i just wanted to say. As a lesbian i really related to what you were saying in your answer to the fetishization anon about seeing yourself in eddie because i feel the same way too! he's easily my favorite character hgfdhgfdsgfds i used to consume and produce a lot of m/m content because i was so disconnected from my attraction to women and my own sexuality.

(2/6) but its important for us, since we're not gay men, to be very careful about how we contribute to a culture in which gay men are alienated content that is About Them because its all created by women (we don't get any excuse because we're wlw). i'm very close friends irl with the sender of the original fetishization ask, and he sent that because as a gay man some of your content makes him uncomfortable. from an inside perspective it might seem harmless but looking from the outside

(3/6) some of it is REALLY questionable. like the daddy kink stuff (which is applying a very heteronormative lens to a gay relationship) or stuff thats not even making an attempt to be aged up (post/176769250693 comes to mind). even the post directly before the initial fetishization ask was about teen boys giving each other handjobs

(3/6) some of it is REALLY questionable. like the daddy kink stuff (which is applying a very heteronormative lens to a gay relationship) or stuff thats not even making an attempt to be aged up (post/176769250693 comes to mind). even the post directly before the initial fetishization ask was about teen boys giving each other handjobs.

(4/7) this last point is especially concerning because you're an adult. of course teens have sexual desire but you're not the person to be posting about it,especially not on a website where other adults will see it and interact with it. that's another part of why my friend who sent those asks was so upset, because he's a minor (i am as well). and it would be a different thing altogether if you were just posting asks you got. you actively add on to peoples nsfw asks and involve yourself in

creating pornographic content of characters who, lets face it, ARE teenage boys in their currently most popular incarnation. (5/6) i'm not trying to tell you to stop posting, or even to stop posting nsfw content. i think you're a very creative and talented person who clearly has a lot of ideas! just try to make sure you're not making the sort of people you're posting and writing about uncomfortable, like my friend. maybe ask an mlm friend if you have one about the content you post?

(6/6) im so sorry this got so long hgdsgfdsfd but i'm really not trying to antagonize you or anything i just thought my perspective might be valuable. if you'd like to message me i'd be happy to give you my main as well!! have a good day/night :) 

i feel like ive disputed a lot of things in my other posts so this is just gonna be short fhjfkd. the posts u give as examples of me writing abt things featuring young teen boys dont even specify age. since i kinda just have an image of r/eddie in my head as 19/20 year olds, i usually just apply headcanons like that to them, tweaking the age by a few years if i rlly need to, to make it realistic. but i’d rlly ove if u could message me, just so my blog doesnt get so bogged down with this stuff !! and also thank u for being respectful :)

[trans-advice]

I am having an internal debate and conflict about changing my sex on my documents, biologically I was born femalr its my gender that is not female and sex and gender are not the same and I having trouble defending this to others because do they have a point? i will always have my biological make up of a female

While a lot of people deny the existence of transgender people, it doesn’t mean they’re right. I am going to divide this post into 3 sections: #1 vocabulary lessons, #2 discussion about sexuality, #3 links explaining how physiological sex isn’t as tidy/discrete as people say it is,

Also I Do understand the difference between sex & gender. I learned it in 8th grade & I was yay in validation when i did & i used similar language “sex is male but my gender is female”. Point being, the sex versus gender distinction is liberation & I’m glad you’re aware of it. (Hugs or salutes, whatever you prefer.)

#1 vocabulary lessons

Now that being said gender is pretty broad, so the specific term is gender identity. There’s also:“gender roles” basically it refers to division of work & double standards, basically it’s about the pervasiveness/manifestations of sexism“gender attribution” (or “perceived gender”) which refers to what people say your gender is AKA what you pass as,“Gender expression” which refers to your behaviors & mannerisms & other nonverbal communicators like clothing, and how they get attributed & fit into gender roles.If you ever heard of “butch” & “femme” those basically come from people trying to fit lesbian/wlw couples into a heteronormative/straight model of relationships. (Therefore, these terms when used properly say that these gender-binary codings are actually inappropriate.) “Butch” means masculine aligning & “femme” means feminine aligning.

For sex it refers to anatomy & physiology.

#2 about sexuality & how people talk about it:

Sexuality is totally different from gender. Sexuality is more like an eHarmony survey & discussion of fantasies & things you like in a person. However because society doesn’t want to go through 200 questions, we tend to focus on the attributed gender &or gender identity of who we love/have sex with etc.

Usually since physiological sex correlates to attributed gender & gender identity, people who deny transgender people exist would probably define that gender based grammar of sexuality as being based on physiological sex.

An example of a parallel discourse to gender expansionism in sexuality is kink discourse. I get somewhat disturbed by the topics in the education materials, but those are not my kinks. But yeah, discussions about Consent & communication & how to properly do things are pretty cool, but it does require educating yourself. But yeah, that’s the LGB side of the LGBTQIA coalition.

Basically sexuality is what you look for in partners, while gender identity is how you understand yourself.

#3 links for further reading & comments about

http://murphysoutlaw.tumblr.com/post/156363590861/gender-and-how-we-talk-about-it(Explains how there are several definitions of gender & how they must be clarified in order for us to communicate effectively.)

http://www.theplaidzebra.com/science-finally-supports-that-we-are-all-born-as-blank-slates-and-gender-is-merely-a-construct/(Discusses that brains don’t have as much of a dimorphism as generally consensused. Also mentions the antique/ancient “one sex” model of gender that says like women were just men with backwards pensises. Granted, the one-sex model is not entirely accurate, but I think it’s actually more accurate since private parts developed from the same stuff but get placed & formed differently & a lot of human sex dimorphism isn’t as dramatically different like it is in other species. CW: genitalia discussion: Like the testes & ovaries are the same root. Scrotum & labia are the same root. The 2 holes of the vagina that aren’t the anus fuse during the development of males, except for i think 3 in 1000 or 500. The prostate is the g-spot.

https://www.glsen.org/blog/6-ways-i-make-my-science-class-lgbtq-inclusive-trans-teacher(Describes how sex anatomy starts out the same & therefore gives gender neutral terms for stuff. This is kind of huge I think)

https://trans-advice.tumblr.com/post/159422880475/the-future-now-boom-science-follow(Discusses how genetics doesn’t fully fit with what we call sex characteristics being. Also discusses how different species can develop their sexes differently)

https://trans-advice.tumblr.com/post/152687957726/emo420-emo420-enderkevin13-i-want-someone (This is long, but it cites academic research, it tells about gender constructions in different cultures, goes into biological stuff, it’s a great post: a classic!)

https://sgaprivilege.tumblr.com/post/154928776786/sonoanthony-hatingongodot (A classic. Gives other gender systems throughout history. Basically shows how people claim science until it doesn’t suit them. Gives hope for finding sources & touches upon people claiming “fake news” all the time.)

http://kiriamaya.tumblr.com/post/128707247524/i-have-a-penis-for-now-but-my-sex-is-not-male (Argues the only reason why we have sex is because (our) society uses gender. Basically that sex is an extension of Gender instead of gender being an extension of sex. I think it’s kind of accurate, but it’s kind of advanced/unhelpful for people who don’t even recognize a difference between sex & gender. Granted, our society’s use of gender’s rooted in lack of birth control, but that doesn’t make it any less social.)

https://trans-advice.tumblr.com/post/153092781587/sex-is-the-same-thing-as-gender-and-it-is (This post is kind of confusing actually, but it’s a good one because it helps give insight to the evolving discourse regarding gender. It discusses how sex is made to fit gender. Granted, trans deniers who call themselves feminists (aka TERFs) say that sex is based on reproduction & perceived reproductive roles, but that in itself is still a social construction & a chosen grammar, similar to how grammar of sexuality got changed from how sperm was used to perceived gender (Discusses how if you call a body parts male or female instead of what body parts they are that it’s gender assignment not sex/reproductive physiology. Like calling a penis a male body part is gender. Technically it goes on to say how penises vary & such (the gender-neutral term is “phallus”).

https://trans-advice.tumblr.com/post/160086635255/dan-whites-got-an-issue-in-2017-science (Brief tweet mentioning how stuff is sprectrums, & the categories are made up. Think of like how “black & white” thinking is really more like grayscale so many kinds of gray. Evolution of species & languages works the same way)

https://stevia333activism.tumblr.com/post/160654062034/featherinmycapandcheese-if-i-say-hatred-of (Argues how the gender binary is racist. Explains racism is a bias of results. So like quinoa is racist because it favors feeding gringos & starving brown Venezuelans because gringos have more money. It describes indigenous peoples having nonbinary gender systems. Granted, indigenous peoples have claimed white people are appropriating nonbinary identities, but it’s discourse from 2016.)

https://stevia333.tumblr.com/post/153233156213/lets-unpack-special-snowflakes People tend to call non-binary people “special snowflakes” or even “trendgender” which is offensive because it reduces atypicality & even disabilities into fame or atrention seeking demonizations. It’s messed up.

https://trans-advice.tumblr.com/post/158930333484/the-invention-of-heterosexualityThis is a classic staple that describes how straight versus gay is a recent invention. Like remember how I went into how way back in the day sexuality was based on where sperm went? Basically this article goes into how that changed. If people be like disgusted that we don’t “fit” into this or whatever, the inventedness of heteronormativity is a good thing to comfort & empower you & heck even throw at them. Basically if we changed in the 1930s about how we talk about sex then we can do so again & we can so about gender.

Good luck, peace & loveEve