#and having personal rep in alastor

[urproblematicfav-arsonk]

ooo! I’d love to read it if/when you post it 😭😭

I just read “I’d Like To Figure Them Out By” and holy shit it’s so good /genuine

-same anon

That fic is the whole reason I quit writing lol I accidentally deleted almost all of it (because I am in fact, stupid) after trying very pathetically hard and it made me so depressed I'd give up every time I tried writing other things.

Hazbin Hotel was the reason I stopped writing and Hazbin Hotel is the reason I started writing again

Abuse is cyclical💖

[yellowsubiesdance]

i think i’ve learned a lot when it comes to not applying my own values to the media i consume

for my script analysis class yesterday, we discussed two gentleman from verona, and nearly every classmate of mine was up in arms about how sexist the story is.

and i'm not saying it's not, or that it's not infuriating to read. but i'm also not putting my energy into getting upset about something written 500 or so years ago. and i'm not about to put my own beliefs onto these characters that are not me. i'm going to let their choices speak for themselves, and interpret it in the context of the story.

all that said, this now brings me to the point of alastor in episode 5, and how viscerally people are responding to it. those of you up in arms about the choices he’s making, and the violent threat he gave husk, you’re missing the entire point of his character, of this place they’re in, of the story being told. he’s an overlord, and he became an overlord by killing much bigger overlords and broadcasting their deaths over the radio.

HE IS NOT A GOOD PERSON.

if you started this show with the belief that every character working the hotel is a good person, you’re in the wrong place. watch the good place if you’re looking for a good wholesome story about getting dead sinners into heaven, because that’s not what this show is about.

you’re more than welcome to hate him after seeing the way he exerted power over a being whose soul he owns, but you’re doing the media you’re watching a disservice by writing it off so quickly. if you don’t like to be uncomfortable watching media, watch something else. this is an uncomfortable show, it handles uncomfortable topics, and it’s going to be an uncomfortable ride, and if you’re not up for something like that, then you should take a break from it and pick up something else. you don’t have to get online and defend your own ideals while you watch a show that goes against your ideals.

[theonlymadmanonmars]

Hi hello hi. As an AroAce individual in a QPR who has no desire for a romantic or sexual relationship, I think shipping Alastor in QPRs is so so fun and people should do it more. I also think it works for a good amount if not all of the ships I've seen him in.

Alastor and Rosie: Hell yeah. They're already great friends and every interaction we've seen between them has been pure and adorable. Rosie Gently guiding Alastor through his identity because he isn't exactly up with the slang. Them going out for tea and human flesh Sunday afternoons. Them giving each other forehead kisses and holding hands platonically.

Alastor and Angle dust: Mhmm. Angle not really wanting Sex or romance after all he's been through. Angle respecting Alastor's identity and not pushing for anything more than friendship. Alastor not really liking Angle at first because of their differences, But tolerating him regardles. Alastor explaining to Angle that Romantic relationships don't have to involve Sex (I'm an Asexual Angle truther.) Angle offering Alastor a hug that Alastor reluctantly accepts. Them cuddling at night with a pinky Promise of nothing more.

Alastor and Vox: Go ahead. A fic about Alastor trying to Navigate exactly how he feels about Vox, Because when he died the term AroAce didn't exist, so he thinks it's romantic attraction, Maybe they kiss and Alastor is like "Ha! No!" Maybe that's why they had their falling out? Who knows.

Alastor and Lucifer: So So SO much Yes. (This is my personal favorite) The two of them hating each other, but putting up for each other for Charlie's sake. Slowly growing to actually tolerate and maybe even like being around the other. Exchanging snarky remarks in a more playful way. Alastor finding Lucifer sitting in a pile of ducks and despair and offering his hand to help him up and take him to the hotel. Never letting go of his hand. Fuck Enemies to Friends to Lovers I want an Enemies to Friends to Qpr arc goddamnit.

I do think it's okay to ship Alastor even outside of QPR's, BUT. If you do, don't just ignore Alastor's identity. AroAce people get far less representation than the rest of the LGBTQ+ community. I can think of one other canon Character off the top of my head. So it's not okay to erase the little rep we do get. In the end I think it's important to listen to what AroAce people have to say on the matter, it is our representation after all.

[alastors-antlers]

Being someone who sees a lot of talk about shipping Alastor (sexually, romantically) in fanworks, I just want to take some time to talk about both sides of the issue. It's long, I know - please, please bear with me until the end, and I hope you'll understand what I mean in a bit.

I hope this helps someone, but as an aroace person who understands the frustration and hurt, this is often how it feels to me:

Alastor, being one of the limited cases of aspec rep that I've seen and one of even fewer which I actually enjoyed, means a lot to me.

That being said, his canon rep establishes that he's aroace but not much about how this factors into his life or relationships at all -- and when there's a gap in canon, I turn to fanfiction, which tends to spotlight characters' queerness even when the source material doesn't or can't. Don't we all want to see ourselves in the media we engage with?

When I pull up AO3, there are already a good number of fics about him. Great! Some of them are definitely incredible; but as I read on, it starts to seem like a lot of fics I see acknowledge that he's asexual or aromantic in some way but don't really factor that into the story. It reads like you could have written the story without keeping his queer identity in mind, and it would've come out the same.

Even when representation that does resonate with me exists, it starts to be exhausting to pick through the slash tags to see which ones are written in an aspec-coded way, so I wonder if it would be easier to not read anything with slash at all. On the other hand, when you filter ships out completely, only a tiny fraction of the fanworks are left.

People often respond that aspec people can have relationships, and I think we tend to know that. They can have sex, some can experience sexual attraction in select situations, they can romance others beyond romantic attraction -- any combination of things. But some aroace people don't want either, and sometimes we're struggling to see ourselves in how Alastor is typically portrayed.

Out of all of the fics, sex-repulsed, totally aromantic Alastor isn't seen much. And when Alastor's limited canon seems to be pretty supportive of a reading where he is those things...

Sometimes, you start to feel lost. If fics were evenly distributed along the aroace spectrum of experiences, wouldn't you expect more fics of him being the "totally uninterested" brand of aroace? But there aren't. People seem to have a preference toward seeing him in relationships. Even if they mean well, it can make you think: what does that say about how we view asexuality/aromanticism as a whole?

Is there something less interesting about Alastor, when romance is taken out of the picture? Do others find him less appealing as a character if they can't see him dating, or in love, or having sex or wanting it? Why do we need romance, when romance is already everywhere else, when it doesn't even feel like he was originally really interested? It brings to mind a struggle to be societally accepted, even today.

Even when it's not technically wrong to write Alastor as you see him, being told that we should all be able to ship him however we want can feel like this:

It brings to mind people who try to swing in with misinformed good intentions, telling us "oh, you're aromantic? but you can still have romantic relationships, right? so you can still be normal." when all we want is to be okay outside of the normal.

Or trying to find a partner who can be with us, out of everyone who tells us "I know you don't enjoy sex, and that's okay, but I can't have a romantic relationship with you without it." and being so tired of hoping for someone who gets it.

Or talking with peers, and hearing them all commiserate and fawn over their experiences with love, then telling them about someone you like non-romantically and getting "aww, it sounds like somebody's got a crush!" but not being believed when you tell them it's not like that at all.

Alastor is not a big deal, not really, not in the grand scheme of things. But in an allonormative world, it can feel like a sudden splash of cold water when we were expecting a warm fire to sit around. Even within this ecosystem, we squint to see ourselves reflected.

Society isn't built for us. It can be exhausting to be reminded of that.

~~~

I hope to support people writing Alastor as any variation of aspec, or not even aspec at all. At the end of the day, I think that fanon is really whatever you want it to be, and everyone has their own reasons for writing what they find enjoyable. They should be allowed to do so, and I want to believe that people do what they do with good intentions.

They want to imagine scenarios with the templates of characters they love, and that's okay; even beyond sexuality/queer identities/etc., fan interpretations of characters can be incredibly, wildly different from who they really are in the story anyway, and that's what I try to remind myself. But still, I also can't help feeling disappointed about the aroace representation we could have seen.

(Is Alastor canonically sex-repulsed? Uhh, maybe. If I had to guess, that'd be my top guess, but this might be a hot take: I wouldn't really say there's enough to go off of considering that this view is supported by Angel propositioning him both times, and it's not like Alastor is a particularly big fan of Angel at those points anyway lol)

To my fellow aroaces struggling with Alastor's fandom rep: if you need a break from it all; if you need to block the tags that you hate; if you need to talk to someone about how you're feeling; that's okay. It makes sense that you'd want more representation in a way that helps you feel seen and validated and less alone. I can't speak for everyone, but I think I get it.

I don't have any solutions for how you're feeling, because sometimes I'm feeling the same way. I understand that you want others to get your position and you have the right to express your feelings, but even if you're correct, often being angry or frustrated won't help change others' minds, so let's try to save our energy and take care of ourselves.

Something that helps me to think about is that even now, asexuality is gaining more visibility. We're gaining support. Real change is happening in the world that's helping incredible amounts of aspec people feel freer to be themselves. And maybe one day, we won't be reaching to protect our scraps of representation.

Let's fight until that day together <3

[xxextrie]

Can we just agree Alastor is one of vivsie's worst characters?

Disclaimer this post was meant to share points about the demonizing a real religion I have heard been said by people of color especially people in those religions who have been overlooked and diminished due to vivsie stans who are mad at the critiques.

So for one he does voodoo in the show which I wouldn’t trust Viv or any of the others to do, but a lot ended up very demonizing, Vivziepop made one character who does voodoo (which is a closed religious practice and Black/Creole/Haitian culture that is constantly demonized in media, like actually fucking stop). and is a demon and that’s all she thought was necessary for the representation, she could’ve had Sera/Emily practice voodoo as they are black women with powerful magic maybe characters who aren’t completely shown as demonic? Vivziepop tried to control the backlash from her using a practice she is not a part of by stating the alastor was mixed. (showing how little she cant draw non-white characters if she can just race swap them at the flip of a switch) Alastor most recently was said to be white/Creole.

But this also just was incredibly weird seeing as he is now a mixed man giving a black man/feline character a contract that allowed Alastor to "own" him with tons of imagery of Alastor pulling him around on chains. Which feels strange for him to be a supposedly “likeable character” (and by that I mean in fandom not necessarily in world) I feel like im crazy to have to say no matter your race you shouldn’t “own” somebody. And I don’t think a slaver should been shown in this fan favorite type character ignoring the important part to have character who does bad be shown as doing bad.

Not only is Alastor a shitty character people will defend the writers saying "it’s hell" like really? yea there are awful people in hell but he is shown constantly in a fun quirky way leading him to be a fan favorite so if they were meaning to show how bad of a person alastor is they are doing a shit job.

Along with all of this Al is Vivsiepops only Ace character wtf is that supposed to say about how ace people are portrayed in the show? as Slavers? Rasicts? Heartless? This is her idea of acespec people, the only ace repersentation in her show and this is what she hands us?

Not only that but she refuses to confirm Alastor's romantism to "let people have their fun" aka she doesn't care about aro representation because it might ruin peoples ship. Our romanticism and sexuality shouldn't be something to shove to the side anytime a fan is horny. Imagine if someone shipped Stolas with a girl? do you think she's say that its all fun? No because she doesn't care about ace people or poc people all she cares about in her non-con demon porn.

there is my rant Alastor is Shit Ace representation SHIT voodou representation

Also Mammon and Octavia haven’t done anything in the actual show to achieve ace rep. Also mammon? Really?

[picturebird]

Shipping Alastor Hot Tip:

If you want to ship Alastor from Hazbin Hotel with another character, here’s how you can do that while respecting his asexuality. Don’t worry it’s easy!

Figure out under what circumstances he can feel sexual attraction.

Is it only someone he’s closely bonded to? (Demisexuality)

Is it only when he knows they are attracted to him? (Reciprosexuality)

Is it only when he doesn’t have a close bond with someone and it goes away when they get close? (Fraysexuality)

You don’t have to use micro labels (labels can be problematic at times) but looking into the ace umbrella is definitely important. If you’re writing a fic, all you need is one sentence addressing this and then you can move on to the spicy stuff if you want to. It’ll make whatever relationship you’re writing even more special!

Here’s a link:

There’s been a lot of stress in the fandom over shipping Alastor and I think it’s mostly a misunderstanding (sadly not entirely at times).

People should be able to ship who they want, but ace people (who don’t have a lot of media rep) shouldn’t be erased. It can be hard when you love a character who’s like you and all the content you see about them is taking away that one thing you have in common. At times, that dismissal can feel like hate. But it is completely understandable if you find joy/pleasure in specific ships and want to express those feelings. I’m sure aegosexuals and fictosexuals (also ace) can relate to that too. Finding that balance is something the queer community as a whole is still working on.

Just be kind, be respectful and remember a character being ace doesn’t take away anything it only adds to them.

It’s not a restriction. It’s an opportunity :)

Have fun!

PS please reblog so more of the fandom gets this

[a-doubleh-x]

Why I like Charlastor

The other day I noticed there was some negativity in the Charlastor tag, including antis and people feeling the need to defend against antis, so I thought I might as well take a step back and just write candidly about why I like the ship.

I only got into Hazbin in October of last year, but already it has inspired me a lot to write and fantazise about it. Like most people, I started with the classic "they look cute together", but as I kept looking I couldn't help but think there was something else to these two than first met the eye.

For starters, I love Pollyanas! I think they get a bad rep for being naive, but I just appreciate an optimist like Charlie who just wants to make people around her happy because it makes her happy. I also like bad boys 😳 I'm a pretty heteronormative guy, so I haven't had a big chance to explore that part of myself yet, but I do like the danger and excitement someone like Alastor brings to the table.

I will admit when I started writing Charlastor I felt like I was handling dynomite. It's a lil scary to ship a boundless altruist with a manipulative sociopath, but bear with me.

I think each of them has something the other needs. I think Charlie needs someone to challenge her, someone to steer her in the right direction while she's mostly isolated. At the start of the series, practically nobody but Vaggie takes her seriously, and Alastor is no exception. He mocks her, teases her, but she still listens and I think it's because somewhere deep down she understands there's something he's trting to communicate in his annoying, but curious way.

Of course, I also love the fanon Charlie who's down bad for Alastor, and even if that Charlie is a little naive, I think it's also sweet and she can use some indulgence while most people treat her like a child.

On the other hand, when it comes to Alastor, this is a bit of a theory on my part, but I think he's secretely lonely. He has friends, certainly, like Rosie and Mimzy, but they're not good enough friends to live together with him. They don't seem to be able to save him from "pure, absolute boredom". But Charlie, for some reason can, even though she's a stranger at the beginning when Alastor chooses to move into the Hotel.

Alastor is not as much of a cynic as someone who chooses to see things in a perspective that benefits him. He doesn't think redeeming sinner is "hopeless", but "hilarious" instead, which has interesting implications to me. That's why he chooses to hover around Charlie, not because he thinks she's lame, rather because he thinks she's silly. She makes him laugh. Which I think is kind of how Alastor sees "love".

And then you have fanon Alastor who, depending on the writer, is either a horny animal, a wisecrack edgelord or a soft boy who's mean to everyone but Charlie XD I like several of those interpretations, but I kinda prefer mine just out of personal taste. I think the best part about Alastor is that he doesn't *care* what anyone thinks of him and always does what he wants, even at the expense of other people, which I find pretty enviable.

They're kinda both outcasts in their own ways. Charlie by being unable to fit in and Alastor being unwilling to compromise. But they don't judge each other. He supports her in his own weird way and she houses him and is delighted of him in general, which is tasty food for his ego. I do wonder why Alastor is interested in Charlie, both in canon and in a fandom vacuum.

There's some cool potential for drama there, but also growth and healing, in my opinion. Personally, I think Alastor doesn't want to actually *hurt* Charlie, but he may hurt those around her, which will be a moment to start settling compromises if Charlie puts her foot down.

That haz bin my review so far! I'm honestly pretty grateful for Vivziepop for all of the work she's done so far, I know directing, animating and writing two shows over the course of 5 year or so ain't easy. I'm also grateful to the fandom who shares their thoughts and vision, which calms the terrible voices I started hearing in my head since I bought this weird old radio.

I'm in the middle of a break, but if you're interested in my fanfics I'll get back to writing very soon. Cheers! 🌈❤🦌

[echo-writes-things]

Regarding the Alastair post! Absolutely not trying to be a bitch!!! But I get the frustration with people writing smut about a aroace character but at the same time it’s just a character that’s fictional??? I understand that representation of aroace people is important but a fictional character who is also a serial killer shouldn’t be the representation you want.

It’s sad that our only rep is a serial killer but at the same time that’s our ONLY rep. And sure he’s fictional. Im not saying DONT write smut. Im saying quit making excuses and twisting shit around. Im tired of seeing creators go “I think he’s asexual but he just SOMETIMES feels attraction.” Cause that means they don’t understand wtf it is

Asexuality is a spectrum much like everything in the LGBTQ+ community. Other people have a thing called a “Type”. This is their dream person to sleep with or a trait that really gets someone aroused. Asexuals don’t have this type. They can still have sex and some even enjoy it, but there’s the absence of SEXUAL ATTRACTION. Being ace doesn’t mean you just can’t have sex, it means you don’t feel the feelings the same as everyone else. Some asexuals even enjoy kinks because there’s not a person aspect of it, it’s just pleasure/stimulation. Some asexuals talk about sex ALLLLLL the time but don’t actually feel the attraction. It just depends on who you talk to! But the main baseline is there is no trait or type that gets us turned on. People do not turn us on.

Y’all can write Alastor having sex without bullshitting around the topic of him being asexual. Now clearly his character was written to not want sexual relations/being sex repulsed. That’s still under the umbrella of asexuality. I just don’t want people to erase his label/change the meaning of his sexuality and romantic orientation.

Sure it’s just fiction but at the end of the day it’s still kinda rude to rewrite characters like that. Straight people get mad when we make everything gay, we get mad when they make everything straight. It’s a constant battle but I think we have a right to speak up about being upset with it

[alacetor-the-duckies-deer]

The like, best way I would ship Lilith x Lucifer x Alastor is if they had the same dynamic as Lito, Hernando, and Daniella from Sens8.

Lilith and Lucifer are the touchy Feely one in a romantic and sexual relationship, and Alastor's there in a queerplatonic manner, he doesn't have sex with them or kiss them. But he's always there for their most intimate, important life moments, fascinated by THIEIR relationship, and they wouldn't want it any other way.

Like one of my favorite scenes in the show (Minor sense8 spoilers) is, Lito and Hernando are moving, and they're looking at this one house with Dani, and she starts gushing about how perfect it is for the three of them, and then gets all nervous, not knowing if she was actually moving with them or everstepping (they were all living together but all had to leave at the same time) and they're like "no no no. Of course you coming with us"

And I want that with Alastor.

The way she's touching them just a little while theyre all over eachother, and feels just as caught as they do by the person in the elevator

The way their joy brings her so much joy

The way she seemlessly takes Hernado's drink from between Lito's legs, but Lito doesn't turn any of that rizz on her

The was she's into what they're doing and they don't mind her there

The way she's still able to touch in casual settings without it being odd

How they don't hesitate to comfort her ans show her more intimate affection, and how she's surised but pleased

Imagine all that with this Lucifer and Lilith and Alastor.

(And more actual spoiled for Dani's plot, I highly encourage watching the show, but,,, the way Daniel has an abusive ex and abusive controlling family, but find love with these two, easily leans into a story where Lilith and Luci work to get Alastor out of his contract. And he's so suprised that they actually love him enough to do what they gonna do for that)

Anyway sense8 is such a good show. It has trans rep and three (3) kind of poly rep and gay rep and lesbian rep, and the sci-fi premise is so good and the story is good. Everyone should watch it.

[goodluckclove]

Some Loose Thoughts on Queer Rep (Specifically Aspec Rep)

(Just in advance I'm going to dunk on Alastor from Hazbin Hotel like a lil' bit, as a treat. Mainly the team that made him and what he represents, but still. If that's rage bait for you, I suggest maybe dipping out now)

I have a theory that queer media needs both queer characters and queer genre characters. The difference is very important.

I think a queer character would be a character in a story about their queerness. For some reason the only two characters I could think of are the guy from Love, Simon (What was his name again?) and the protagonist from Rubyfruit Jungle, which should express the weird and complicated relationship I have with this particular archetype.

Queer stories centered around queerness are definitely needed, but at the same time I feel like we're just starting to come to terms with the desperate need for the alternative, which are queer characters in genre media that contain overarching plots larger than their sexuality. Not separate, necessarily (Their queerness certainly influences things), but just beyond. This is more accessible for a variety of artists, which is also the reason why it can be a flop or a massive success.

We get more of this than ever for gay and sapphic characters, as well as some trans folks and occasionally non-binary. It's definitely way less seen in aspec characters, and even less respected. I started thinking this way because the internet is flooded with references to fucking Alastor from Hazbin Hotel as an aroace character and - like - god, I don't get it.

Like you can have your serial killer comfort character, that's fine. But latching onto him as representation for the entire aspec community when he was only confirmed to be aroace through a reference in a livestream and the weakest joke onscreen is pretty disheartening. It definitely reads like this part of his identity was added pretty late in his character development, and by a team of people that didn't seem to consider what the response and reaction would be and how they'd handle it.

I also wish the newest aspec icon in media wasn't created by a team so adamant on encouraging shipping culture above actually respecting the identity they've decided to provide representation for. Like I see it means a lot to people to have an aroace character doing something cool in a fun TV show that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with their identity. Then there's like four other people right behind that person who really wants that person to be romantic and fuck.

And like, yeah, aroace people can do that sometimes. It's a spectrum, I know. But can't we start with a baseline representation before providing proof of fluidity?

I just think we deserve better. Like a character who in the media is established to be aspec, and people are like "great" and move on to fight robots or do magic or whatever. And the person can be morally grey, or even a total dick, but like I'd personally prefer something with a little more depth than Hot Topic genericism.

Like don't get me wrong, I'll take some sort of eldritch horror as my representation, but...make him at all horrifying? Like everyone talks about how he has Eldritch powers, which I know to mean unfathomable and maddening. But I've seen everything he does in the canon of the show and it is both incredibly fathomable and makes me feel normal and sane. Yog-Sothoth this man is not.

But yeah, I don't think there's a solution here besides more aspec artists creating aspec characters in their work. That way people can still like Alastor if they want, but he's not like the only viable option in terms of representation in the media. Let me see lovingly-crafted cool guys and dipshits and chaos goblins and little babies and True Horrors, all of whom have varying degrees of distaste or indifference towards sex and romance.

Do it. We need it. Please.

[tocomplainfriend]

BIG POST ABOUT ACE REP IN HB/HH

ALASTOR:

I'm ace spec and I hate this shitty mix of stereotypes

So many people see Ace or Aro (and both) people as people who must not have feelings. That if you don't feel romantic or sexual attraction for example "you must be broken" in the same way people connect that to people like serial killers like Alastor. The not having feelings or empathy for people also connects to of all that. And the automatic connection of "no feelings, no empathy" = "ace", Because of the usual conflation of Ace and Aromantic. (Specially cause a lot of people have heard more about Asexual than Aromatic, and can't separate sexual and romantic attraction and empathy)

Again, the general canon treatment and vivs treatment of Alastor also leads to the idea of Complete sex repulsed Ace and Complete romance repulsed Aro. But when ask about his romantic attraction, she doesn't state it as much as she states his Asexuality.

"If I give the real cannon answer...it's gonna... it's gonna... I don't want to ruin anybody's fun, so..."

Old post about this, plus the video of the quote:

Crew notes for Al:

MAMMON:

What!? Yeah! Came out of nowhere! Now we got two Ace characters that are extra terrible people that hurt others cause of the idea of shitty with empathy connected to Asexuality is all around... "Too bad/selfish of a person" = ace

I think they really just put this in at random. I don't think it was pre planed to have him as Ace because of how Octavia and Al are written.

Al is written with the simplicity of him being so not into sex that they portrayed him as if he didn't know about it in Hunicast. But Mammon is constantly profiting of the sexualization of Fizz, now Glitz and Glam. Constantly using prude language as well. I think if there was an intention before, they wouldn't have done that. Viv hasn't shown me a deeper understanding of Ace spectrums at all, I don't trust this. She picked the fat character, the series and merch doesn't sexualize like the others. He always had clothes on and nothing kinky. (for example...Viv also doesn't show a deeper/ or non-basic/non-stereotyped understanding of pansexuality)

But if it was an understanding of Ace spectrum, I'll take that. Mammon being ace, but he can understand and feel comfortable with people feeling attracted to him in that kind of way, like portrayed in the sexy merch?

BUT he is the only fat character and the only one never portrayed as naked or with fewer clothes in comparison to literally all the characters (including one offs) isn't this Viv and crew searching something to not having to sexualize him like they do with all the others? The two other Ace characters in this list don't get sexualized at all (thank god, Octavia is a kid) with the idea that Ace = 0 interaction with anything sex or attraction related....

REMEMBER, ACE IS AN SPECTRUM.

ACE PEOPLE CAN STILL HAVE SEX OR VIEW THEMSELVES AS SEXY AND WEAR SEXY CLOTHES.

They are also only using the Ace flag? Mammon is using the color for his clothes, so it could be Demi or Grey too, I wouldn't know, but it doubts it... Demi could match his actual outfit cause of the diamond shape things are like the triangle in the flag too tho!

That he is not treated like he doesn't know how sex works is surprisingly/sadly good. When the only thing you got is how Viv treated Al in Hunicast.

(Hopefully there is no weird implication that he is only at pride as a shitty rainbow capitalism thing, and that he is not connected to the cause of pride because he is Ace and implicated as "not to being connected as much". Really don't think so, but is always a worry that there could be a treatment of you are not as LGBTQ+ because you are ace so...!)

OCTAVIA: oh brother, I think she only got put on this because she is a minor, not to be sexualized in the heavily sexualized media. I mean, thank god.

I guess she's spilling her coffee at Stolas being sexual in the phone to Blitz in front of her, and telling them to get a room is the implication of Asexuality? Likewise, I think everyone doesn't want to hear their parent do dirty talk and attempt flirting in front of them.

Are any of these gonna matter or have an exploration or mention it? In the same way, there is a mention of (mainly male) gayness? No.

I don't think so...

Btw also no nonbinary? No gender-fluid or... nothing? No? Damn...

[chaifootsteps]

Wait

Mammon is asexual? So our ace rep in these shows are Alastor and Mammon, two straight up evil characters who don’t understand/don’t care about other people or their feelings?

Cool, very cool. Happy Pride viv. 🙄

Between this and her retconning Alastor being AroAce so people don’t have to feel bad about their ships (ugh) viv is very much giving JKR randomly announcing that dumbledore is gay despite no actual canon subtext (and being a horrible person)

Like why do we need to know the sexualities of random side characters if it doesn’t impact the show and just hurts Ace people who are already under and poorly represented?

Sorry for the rant, I’m just tired of Ace and Aro people being treated so badly by media like this 😕

And Via, don't forget Via! You know, the vulnerable teenage girl who's about to be villainized because she cuts off her negligent, narcissistic dad and who's chastised for not "cutting him some slack."

[onesidedradiostatic]

On one hand I get why Mammon might be problematic aroace rep but on the other. I genuinely cannot imagine him going out of his way to form ANY kind of relationship that isn't inherently exploitative of his partner. It's just not in his nature. Like the word 'mammon' literally means money/wealth/profit 😭 there is no room for someone else with a person like that

okay anon I know you mean no ill-will with this but like… the reasons you listed is precisely why mammon as aroace rep is kindaaaa problematic (although again granted we don't know for sure AROace is the intention, but if the ace of spades asexual symbolism was intentional it seems that way)

exploiting every relationship you're in is completely independent of attraction. anyone can do that regardless of whether they are attracted to the person they are exploiting.

a character shouldn't be aro simply for the reason that they're too compassionless to have or want a partner, because that's just feeding into harmful aro stereotypes. that's kind of exactly what the "no love for the wicked" trope is.

and okay some may wonder "oh but what about alastor", admittedly even with alastor I was kind of skeptical going into hazbin since I was under the impression he was a full-on villain, but going through all of it, despite his immorality he still shows the capacity to care for others with mimzy, rosie, niffty and some extent the hotel. so he doesn't fully fall into "oh he's too evil to care of course he wouldn't feel romantic love" because he does care in certain cases, but I worry mammon falls into that category because we haven't seen any instance of him caring about anyone but himself yet

it's okay for an evil character to be aroace but they shouldn't be aroace because they're evil

also I do wonder if octavia is intended to only be ace or specifically aroace too, because unlike mammon she doesn't have the ace of spades imagery, it would be cool if she was though, she would at least balance out as being the only non-evil aroace in the hellaverse LMAO. but I also wish vivzie played around more with different type of aspecs and didn't have every ace be aro (or even GASP. include an aroallo character), honestly if it were between mammon and octavia I'd prefer for octavia to be aro over mammon, but obviously if mammon is intended to be aro I wouldn't deny him of it I'd just be… silently judging but accept it because we have so little aspec rep as it is I'll accept anything.

[prince-liest]

I’m a sex-repulsed ace, and reading the latest chapter of 666 (as well as your analysis here on Tumblr) made me realize that I have been subconsciously thinking about MY OWN sexuality from an allo perspective? And that it has kinda been messing me up?? Like, ever since I learned that sexual attraction was actually a Thing and that it’s Important To People, I had been carrying around a fear of being deficient in some way and not being able to love to the same extent as allos. (1)

Even though I know logically that’s complete garbage and totally untrue, I felt left out of the loop because people seemed to care strongly about this thing I couldn’t even imagine. Whenever it looked like a relationship might happen I panicked for a reason that I couldn’t understand. But now I’m starting to realize that it’s because I was subconsciously terrified of an ‘ulterior motive’ behind the other person’s reasons for wanting to be with me. (2) That part of the reason they even cared was because of something I don’t experience. So thank you, because this realization just clicked into place while reading your work. The thing is, this way of thinking was just internalized in such a way that I didn’t even realize it was there until literally this week. And I think you’re right; one of the main reasons behind that is because I’ve always consumed media written from an allo perspective. (3) If ace/aros are shown at all, they’re depicted as “lacking” and their character development usually revolves around being “fixed” by the story. When I was ~10 years old my mom sometimes let me watch the Big Bang Theory with her (looking back, maybe not the best decision). Anyways, there was one episode deep into the series where Sheldon (who for the past nineish seasons was probably the closest thing to mainstream ace rep) has sex with his girlfriend for the first time. (4) Afterwards, he says something along the lines of “that was better than I thought it would be”, and it’s presented as a Very Good Thing and a big step in their relationship. I think a lifetime of stuff like that makes it very easy to internalize aphobia and feel like the lesser part of the relationship. Or to feel like the other partner is making a huge sacrifice to be with you. That got wayy too long, sorry. All that was just a lot of words to say that I appreciate you. Take care of yourself!(5)

The portrayal of asexuality that you see in media being almost exclusively as you described is very tedious to me because it presumes that something is inherently lacking in aro/aceness rather than that feeling of "lacking" being something that is induced by societal norms. Actually, one of the things that I find additionally alienating is that fandom spaces specifically have been getting better and better about ace characters - but got damn does fandom not jive with aromanticism. Like, a character doesn't want to fuck? That's becoming a liiiittle more fine, it's 2024, we stan consent. But not shipping someone romantically?? Not so easy, now.

I'm glad that my work has been something that resonated with you in this respect! Alastor cares a lot about his reputation as a demon but is pretty blatantly a person who could not possibly give less of a shit about being "wrong" for not being experiencing romantic or sexual attraction. The explanation Viv gave at one point for his own understanding of himself (that he thinks he's just "waiting for the right woman") actually stuck out to me a lot because it's a very "well, nothing is wrong with me for not feeling anything, it's the world that's failed to produce a suitable person" perspective.

But having that kind of confident perspective of your own rightness in the world is really not often portrayed in media, or even in fandom, which even ten years ago was still in the throes of standardizing "Oh, no! Me, gay? These feelings are so wrong!" style m/m content and is honestly not that far off from essentially that for aro/ace characters.

Anyway, all of that is to say that there's not yet much out there that doesn't frame allo/amatonormative values as the default that "even aro/ace people can (and should want to) achieve," and that it's really fun to write a fic that is unequivocally from the perspective of a character who is aroace and doesn't see it as even remotely a fault in himself. Does he have moments where he's a little confused and trying to process how things fit for him? Absolutely. But he just doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who thinks he owes romance to Vox of all people, hahaha. I've written him trying to conform to allo/amatonormativity more with Mimzy, because I think the social standards of their time could push him into it, but Vox? Absolutely not, he does not respect Vox enough for it to even enter his mind.

And then, on the other hand, writing it from an aroace perspective centers the way that romantic and sexual interest can feel like a betrayal of a good thing. With a character like Alastor, it frames romantic and sexual attraction the same alien way that we usually see aromanticism and asexuality framed as.

In the end, this is just one of a plethora of different experiences that aro/ace people can have, but it's one that I really wanted to see represented more, so I'm very happy to write it. I'm glad that you're enjoying it!

[alastors-antlers]

Why Alastor is good aroace rep after all, written by an aroace

Hello all! I just want to start off this post by saying that I'm one person who definitely doesn't speak for all aroaces, but I wanted to make a post on this anyway, and maybe some folk would be interested in hearing out another perspective?

I'm not really caught up on everything that's been said over the course of HH's creation - only more recent interviews, since I'm pretty new to the fandom. Apologies if I've missed anything, but also I do not have the time to keep up with all the out-of-canon-material backstory unfortunately. I'm working with what we've got here.

So here's the thing:

Alastor is cruel, he's narcissistic, he doesn't care about anyone except himself, he's a serial killer and a monster.

(That's the argument I've heard - please tell me if that's not really what people are going for lol, in which case I've totally misunderstood?)

The issue with aroace rep when it paints asexual people with those traits is that it aims to dehumanizes them. Sex and love are essential to the human experience, right? So why wouldn't someone be interested? Because they're self-absorbed, and cold, and detached. They don't have the capacity to love others enough to feel romance.

And sure, Alastor is a killer, and a schemer, and prideful, and a monster by hell's standards. But no matter how above it all and stylish and in control and provocative he wants to be, he's a very human character, and his aroace-ness never serves to add to his alienation. You could even say that it makes him seem even more personable.

That's what I think is the key difference.

why he's human

Alastor's whole persona is about control, and he basically straight-up says this. He's controlling what his enemies know, what his public image is like. His goal is to be the Radio Demon -- overlord of Hell, charismatic, Machiavellian, and undefeatable. He's not. Despite that smile plastered over his face (a powerful tool, huh) he's so expressive for someone who's constantly pretending.

You see his exasperation with the Egg Bois and with Charlie's ranting; his nervousness in front of Zestial; his frustration with Lucifer and the petty lengths he goes to to piss off the ruler of Hell.

You see his desperation, making that deal with Charlie. He's surprised by the idea of being vulnerable in front of an enemy like Adam, and so close to danger. He drops the radio filter and the affect out of fear, and runs on broadcast TV to let out panic and anger and bitterness in his hideout, where no one else can see him.

He has a smile that tells us he's genuinely happy to see someone; it's a little wider than his default. You see it with Mimzy's greeting, you see it with Rosie. Rosie, especially, serves to make Alastor more human to the audience. More on this later, but for now, I'm just saying that you can see that he at least seems to respect her greatly. Whatever bond they have, we know that he trusts her to touch him, to share history with him, and with support that he trusts no one else for.

He pretends, but he can't pretend it all away. Loads of these emotions aren't even advantageous for him to show. It isn't necessarily how the typical asexual psychopath acts; he's not emotionless or only capable of anger or brutality.

He's so full of emotion that it leaks through, despite all that he does to avoid it. He's not inhuman and aloof, not really - he's so, so human, even when he tries not to be because he thinks that'll be what keeps him above all the rest. In control, and free from his chains.

(If anyone wants to see images about all this, I'll make a separate post - just let me know.)

(I also have another post, talking about why Alastor is at least a little attached to the hotel's residents too, shown via conversation with Niffty. In what way? different question.)

how the aroace part contributes to that

Now, to be fair, we don't hear much about his aroaceness in canon. It's just not relevant a lot of the time.

In the pilot, Angel's proposition ruffles his feathers so much that Alastor blanks for a moment. It's a joke, sure, but that ace panic face is a pretty popular Alastor moment in the fandom - Alastor, thrown off-balance by a sex joke of all things, after so many years in Hell that he should probably be used to this.

It's a moment that makes him more approachable; his aroaceness shows him unprepared for something someone else does for one of the only real moments in the whole episode.

And the other part: the ace in the hole statement.

Rosie apparently knows Alastor so well that she read that he's aroace. That tells us about their relationship; namely, that it is long-standing and genuine enough that she gleaned a piece of real information from him. It's a casual fact that she knows about him before he even figured it out himself. It lends legitimacy to their bond - this bond that shows us a more comfortable and warm side of Alastor that we don't often see.

If their relationship is purely business, isn't this something pretty frivolous and personal? It's not like he has anything to gain by telling her about his life, but she learned about it somehow. How close are they? That's where it adds a layer of complexity and personality to his character..

thoughts on representation

Overall, Alastor's an interesting character who has a level of depth and care and personality (outside of cruelty) that asexual psychopath tropes lack. Again, the moments where he's being represented as disinterested in sex or romance don't make him seem detached. Again, they don't say "look how hostile toward relationships his behaviour is - how separate he is from our humanity". That's what bad villain ace rep is. That's not what the show's doing.

Also: I'm not saying that we need to lower our standards or anything, but even if you think it's not the best rep, I feel like we should be supporting HH's efforts here. I know that on Tumblr we have a pretty queer-friendly space going, which is honestly an understatement lol but

Aces are incredibly underrepresented in fiction. There's a whole Wikipedia page about asexual characters in media, and it's short as all hell, and even if you consider what's on there you see quite a number of one-off characters who are never mentioned again.

In terms of real life business - before the DSM updated their definition of hypoactive sexual desire disorder (HSDD) in 2013, identifying as asexual wasn't even a recognized thing. If you talked to a clinician about your lack of sexual desire, you could be diagnosed with a disorder. Only in the 5th edition do we now have a little exclusion footnote about it.

The concept of asexuality hasn't been explored nearly as much as other queer identities in our scientific research. We get crumbs in terms of mainstream representation and understanding. House M.D. has an episode where House "disproves" us because he's just so smart.

Alastor isn't going to be perfect representation. There's no such thing as perfect representation, and from the moment he was conceptualized, you could see how people would take him poorly. Still, I think he's a net positive.

He isn't a side character or a token ace - he's a core part of the show, whose personality and character motivations we can reasonably presume are going to be explored much more deeply in upcoming season(s). He's loved by the fandom. Right now, given what we know, I trust Vivziepop to write the aroace representation he deserves, because with the way I've heard the cast/directing/etc. talk about him, they're trying to do the aroace community justice, so I wish people would let up just a little on the whole "Alastor is bad rep".

Let's give him a chance, all right?

[soloragoldsun]

As an aroace person who is starved for more rep in media, I really appreciate the fact that the series doubled down on "Yes, Alastor IS, in fact, aroace!" starting with that "Ha ha, never going to happen," comment toward Angel, referring to Charlie as his daughter, and finally Rosie's "Ace in the hole" comment.

Like, I have no problem with people who do as they please in fanworks. That's what fanworks are for. But it felt like a lot of the same people who would crucify someone for shipping Angel with a woman were totally fine acting like Alastor's aroace-ness just didn't exist. Hell, I saw some people who were ANGRILY denying that he was aroace because they thought he was hot.

Alastor is an aroace king and I love him for that!